Is a vehicle cover or concealment? It depends.

[cclaxton]

http://www.recoilweb.com/take-cover-shooting-at-and-through-vehicles-50323.html

In shooting targets inside or through vehicles in IDPA matches, I have rarely found a round penetrates to the other side. Fragments will sometimes. Often the car becomes a bullet trap.

What are the experiences here? I am primarily interested in discussion around use of pistols.
Cody

[Chuck Haggard]

Depends on "cover from what?"

Most handgun rounds? Yes, cars can give quite a bit of cover. And buckshot, fragmenting .223/5.56 rounds, .22 rifles, etc.

Cars are far less cover against things like bonded/solid copper .308 bullets, high penetration 12 gauge slugs, designed to penetrate well 5.56 rounds and such.

I have personally put 124gr +P Gold Dots and NATO ball through one side and out the other on the front doors of a Crown Vic, if the rounds are hitting perpendicular to the car.

[BobM]

CrownVic worked for me once, against .223. Several rounds were stopped in the engine block area. Two or three penetrated the door but by that time I wasn't there.

[Hambo]

Depends on "cover from what?"


And which part of the car. Modern car doors have a lot of stuff in them: window parts, air bags, safety reinforcement bars. Thus we found that doors we literally hit or miss. Hit some junk and handgun rounds might not make it into the passenger compartment. Hit sheet metal and they went through. Windows, especially windshields, tore up bullets and caused some deflection, but we still got hits on targets inside. All of this is from a decade ago, but I would only rely on the engine block and firewall to be really good cover. The rest of the car is marginal to bad IMO.

[Lon]

We shot up a few cars last year at work for training purposes. I'll try to post some video if I can find it. Bottom line is, it just depends on a lot of variables specific to where the round hits on the car. Truck beds are not your friend unless the truck bed is full of stuff. I'll dig up my notes from last rear. We shot up a minivan, a ford ranger and a Jeep Grand Cherokee. Personally, the engine block is all I would trust for sure to stop bullets.

[Chuck Haggard]

One of the things that I got to do a lot of early on was shoot up cars for fun. A high school friend's dad owned a junk yard, and it being in the county, and dad not caring if we shot up the cars that were going to be crushed, meant I got to put bullets into a LOT of cars. That was pretty educational.

[Lon]

That was pretty educational.

This. We shoot up cars every few years. Any police agency that has never hauled cars out to their range and shot them up for their troops are negligent in their training, if you ask me. Being able to see it first hand is quite different from being told about it. Same with shooting from the inside of and into a vehicle.

[Beat Trash]

When I find myself taking cover behind a vehicle (usually a Crown Vic), I use the engine block. Every other part of the car falls under the category of "Depends". The thing is, if being shot at, I do not want to count on "Depends". Also the front tire gives a bit of cover and concealment to your feet. Otherwise, someone can skip rounds under the car, shoot out your feet/ankles, then shoot your head when you go down. Not a good thing...

The only time I have ever been shot at while taking cover behind a vehicle was an unmarked SUV that a couple of our drug unit guys were driving. It's amazing how many people can squeeze behind an engine block given the appropriate motivation...

[GardoneVT]

Put me down for "concealment", engine block excepted.

Most modern cars wont stop even pistol bullets, to say nothing of rifle rounds. The Ford Crown Vic /Lincoln Town Car/Mercury Grand Marquis is one of the last types of body-on-frame cars produced. Modern day cars on unibody frames dont have that much mass to play with. The Box o' Truth tested an old 80's Buick and found even .22LR would go through a cabin-a conclusion I verified in person when an acquaintance ND'd his XD carry gun ,putting a .45 through his leg and out the door of his '05 Nissan.

[BobM]

It's amazing how many people can squeeze behind an engine block given the appropriate motivation...

Also amazing how small you can make yourself when you need to.

[orionz06]

I've seen door panels stop a .40 S&W Barnes round and just a little above that a subsonic 22 passed through.

Too many variables at play. Sometimes it's a few layers of sheet metal and other times it's many layers of formed frame.

[HCM]

Also amazing how small you can make yourself when you need to.

Just another reason I <3 my work Tahoe.

[peterb]

Put me down for "concealment", engine block excepted.

Most modern cars wont stop even pistol bullets, to say nothing of rifle rounds. The Ford Crown Vic /Lincoln Town Car/Mercury Grand Marquis is one of the last types of body-on-frame cars produced. Modern day cars on unibody frames dont have that much mass to play with. The Box o' Truth tested an old 80's Buick and found even .22LR would go through a cabin-a conclusion I verified in person when an acquaintance ND'd his XD carry gun ,putting a .45 through his leg and out the door of his '05 Nissan.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/buick-of-truth/

[Drang]

Also amazing how small you can make yourself when you need to.

"What is 'Not small enough', Alex?"

[Beat Trash]

Also amazing how small you can make yourself when you need to.

Y e p . . . !

[Lon]

Here's a video I took after we got done with our training. This videos and the others were taken to show my academy cadets.


http://youtu.be/fmcvkpEFQO8

[Lon]

http://youtu.be/e347Oen0E_E

[Lon]

http://youtu.be/KaPMDgS5DYo

[Chuck Haggard]

Here's a video I took after we got done with our training. This videos and the others were taken to show my academy cadets.


http://youtu.be/fmcvkpEFQO8

Video marked private when link is clicked

[Lon]

Crap. I'll fix it when I get home.

[Chuck Haggard]

Crap. I'll fix it when I get home.

It workee now. Thanks!

[MD7305]

I've seen that bullets can do unpredictable things in cars. The first time I saw buckshot and slugs vs. a vehicle I was shocked by how well they penetrated. In reference to engine blocks, keep in mind that's not a very large piece of cover, especially for some folks, but it's better than nothing and I'd take it over any other part of the car. The reason I mention that is in training I see folks gravitate to the front of the he car to utilize the engine block for cover but they sometimes fail to realize the engine block only accounts for a fraction of the space inside the engine compartment.

[GardoneVT]

I've seen that bullets can do unpredictable things in cars. The first time I saw buckshot and slugs vs. a vehicle I was shocked by how well they penetrated. In reference to engine blocks, keep in mind that's not a very large piece of cover, especially for some folks, but it's better than nothing and I'd take it over any other part of the car. The reason I mention that is in training I see folks gravitate to the front of the he car to utilize the engine block for cover but they sometimes fail to realize the engine block only accounts for a fraction of the space inside the engine compartment.

Some casual knowledge of cars is helpful here also. I would NOT want to be the guy who takes cover in the front end of a Toyota Previa minivan ,or a Subaru BRZ.

[MD7305]

That BRZs pancake-ish boxer motor location might be an issue:p. Something to think about.

[Hambo]

I've seen that bullets can do unpredictable things in cars. The first time I saw buckshot and slugs vs. a vehicle I was shocked by how well they penetrated. In reference to engine blocks, keep in mind that's not a very large piece of cover, especially for some folks, but it's better than nothing and I'd take it over any other part of the car. The reason I mention that is in training I see folks gravitate to the front of the he car to utilize the engine block for cover but they sometimes fail to realize the engine block only accounts for a fraction of the space inside the engine compartment.

My first pickup had an inline six cylinder that covered a lot of space from the firewall forward, but it was the only thing under the hood. Now my car has a 4 cyl that is mounted parallel to the front axle, but there's a ton of other crap in the engine compartment. Either way, it's still the best bet for cover.

[Aray]

What about a Prius or other vehicle with large batteries? I would bet the batteries would stop some rounds, but it may still suck to be in the area.

[DiscipulusArmorum]

It's worth noting that more and more cars are coming with laminated glass in the passenger windows. Previously you'd only find it in the windshield, and the other windows would be made of tempered glass, which isn't nearly as tough a barrier from my understanding. My '08 Jeep GC has laminated glass all the way around as an option, and many vehicles now have it as standard for the sound-deadening and safety benefits (although there is the disadvantage of them being harder to break from the inside as well if you need to get out in a hurry).

Normal laminated glass certainly wouldn't be enough to stop common pistol and rifle rounds, but you could have significant deflection and performance issues (lack of expansion, etc.).

[archangel]

In shooting targets inside or through vehicles in IDPA matches, I have rarely found a round penetrates to the other side.

I have to wonder what percentage of those rounds are gamer loads, ie soft shooting, minimum power factor reloads.


I was in a class last year where each of the students got to shoot a car. More than half of those rounds went all the way through - in the passenger side door, out the driver side door. For the heaver rounds (.40 and .45) it was probably more like 75%.

Rounds coming in at an angle wound have additional stuff to penetrate (seats, dash, etc) but it's still more or less a coin toss. The only parts of the car that I would even vaguely consider "cover" vs "concealment" would be the engine block, disk brakes, and (in the case of the above mentioned class, when one of the test rounds severed the passenger side door latch mechanism, which we then attempted to unlatch ballistically) the door latch (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?9297-Travis-Haley-s-Disruptive-Environments-Handgun-Vehicle-Darkness-Class-Observations&p=155512&viewfull=1#post155512).

[Chuck Haggard]

Bullet construction makes a huge difference.

Bullets like the various premium bonded rounds, Gold Dot, Ranger Bonded, etc., or monolithic bullets like the Barnes, penetrate very well. I have noted some of the various FMJs can work well, others not so much.

NATO ball and the 124gr bullets being used in the 124gr Lawman and Federal AE are pretty tough in my observation. On the other hand, the 230gr FMJ used in the .45acp Federal Champion frags badly.

[czech6]

What about a Prius or other vehicle with large batteries? I would bet the batteries would stop some rounds, but it may still suck to be in the area.

I've watched a couple big lithium car batteries go up in flames after crashes, seeing how much trouble the fire department had with those, I don't want to be anywhere near one if the batteries are at risk of being compromised. BTW, these were pretty bad wrecks, and even before the fire the cars were totaled beyond any doubt. Lithium car batteries are mounted as low as possible and unless the cars on it's side, probably won't do much good.

Laminated side windows are bad medicine in a side impact car crash.

The higher in the suspect is in relationship to the car, the less effective the car is at stopping rounds. From my own non-scientific testing there needs to be a 10-12ft stand off distance from a car to avoid rounds that have ricocheted off of a flat surface. Skipping a bullet into the brain pan is a game ender. Somewhere Paul Howe has a pretty write up on this and does a really good job on the pitfalls and considerations on using cars for cover/concealment.

Edited: A standoff distance would be bad if the suspect is elevated.

[Chuck Haggard]

Fun to watch, and you can see 5.56 rounds coming out the trunk of the car when they are fired into the front of the bad guy car, along with the "driver" having a very bad day;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dkg4B4mvBdM


That Paul Howe article referenced above;
http://www.combatshootingandtactics.com/published/the_myth_of_cover_07.pdf

[czech6]

Chuck thanks for the link.

http://i886.photobucket.com/albums/ac64/re15t2/test2_zpsb4caad86.jpg

Here's a really bad picture I made showing a standing 6 foot tall man about 10 feet from from the engine compartment of a Crown Vic. While it doesn't account for downward side slope of the hood, even at that range the engine block is useless and the tire may be of little help.

The other just shows standoff at 10 feet.

[Terence]

At the one (1) carbine class I have taken, the instructor told us that we should be careful taking cover behind vehicles for all the reasons mentioned here.

But he also said that in his experience, even if rounds that penetrate through don't hit you, they often cause bits and pieces of the vehicle to fly about. So I guess fragments of glass or plastic and metal might fly around loose, caused by the impact of bullets on the car. Thse could cause injury if they hit eyes or exposed skin. There's probably a technical term for that. Spalling, maybe?

His suggestion was that when using a vehicle for cover, don't get right up against it, but leave some space between you and it.

I don't know if a) this is true and b) if backing off would help. Any thoughts from the folks here?

[Chuck Haggard]

You generally don't want to crowd cover, cars especially, for all of those reasons. Eye pro in a fight is a good thing to have. So is armor. I know of a few cases were concealable vests that weren't rated to stop rifle rounds stopped rifle rounds that had to get through cars parts first.

[Surf]

We do this block of instruction for various agencies / entities and just did one yesterday. Sorry cannot show any pics or video. While some cover is often better than nothing, I will make the comment that one should look at a vehicle as a bullet magnet and not something you want to get stuck inside of if you cannot evac an area quickly. When immobile, getting out of the vehicle quickly is imperative. While a common passenger type vehicle may have variables involved where through and through projectile penetration is defeated, one should primarily look at the common passenger vehicles as concealment. Projectile caliber and type play a role, however you are really playing the odds that the projectile will hit a side beam, engine block, window motor, seats, etc, to stop the penetration. Definitely inside the vehicle and your screwed quickly, outside of the vehicle and you are still rolling the dice and in my experiences the odds are not good enough in my opinion to wisely consider a vehicle as "cover".

Vehicular tactics and ballistic efficacy are often topics that are not fully, or usually accurately understood by most people and that includes most Police Officers unless if they have specifically received the training first hand. They often overestimate the ability of the vehicle to stop incoming fire. This is one topic that is one of those things that should be seen and experienced via first hand training as opposed to it being given in the form of lecture, even with pictures and video. Unfortunately time and resources often make first hand training for all employees prohibitive. Pretty much every single person who has gone through our courses, come away with a completely different outlook on vehicle's and can easily draw their own conclusions about cover and / or concealment. It is very enlightening to those who have never seen it first hand.

[Steve f]

the college station texas shoot out is a great example if you can get the info

an officer was pinned down for approx. 20 minutes taking fire from heavy caliber rifles read as 762x39 and 51 and never got a scratch he used the engine block area of the car
he had 4 malfunctions if i recall correct with his M4 a citizen with a handgun was also killed but managed to drive the shooter back into the house

having shot so many freaking cars the past few years there is no absolutes other than sooner or later one is getting through its a matter of which one it is

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k74HqEPxePY

at about 2:19 watch the door and paper

[dbateman]

I'm no guru but I don't consider a standard vehicle cover but if it were all I had I would use it.