Beretta M92A1 Recoil Impulse-Wet Noodle Syndrome.

[Magsz]

Hey guys, im cross posting this from another forum because the Fudds were seriously driving me up the wall. I know we have quite a few engineers here and guys that actually you know...shoot their guns instead of re enacting die hard in their basements...

So, having said that. Please for the love of god, someone shed some light on what is going on here:

Ok...

So, guys, ive got some questions and i hope i clearly explain my issue.

First, the gun.

Beretta M92A1
Wolf 11 LB Recoil Spring
Wolf 19 LB 1911 hammer spring
Beretta Comp E2 Hammer
Hogue Extreme G10 Piranha Grips.
Grip tape on the front and backstraps.

Ammo:

147 Grain Bayou bullets 3.8 grains WST 130k power factor.
135 Grain Extreme RNFP 4.0 Grains WST 130k power factor
135 Grain Extreme N320 3.9 grains 130k power factor.

The gun is VERY hard to control and has a really weird "bounce" to it. My grip is not slipping and my wrists are only unlocking the teeniest amount. For whatever reason the gun "feels" like it is experiencing coil bind, ie the recoil spring is bottoming out on itself creating a whip like effect. The gun, and this is half of a joke, feels like im shooting a piece of spaghetti. I also suspect that perhaps the recoil buffer is basically getting pounded in the gun and may be accounting for part of the "wobble".

My friend insist that the M9A1 that we have in our little training club does NOT recoil like this BUT that gun is running a 12 lb recoil spring so i dont know if that could account for the difference.

Ive never shot a gun that tracks so poorly and im wondering what's up. Any thoughts in regard to this would be great! Thanks guys!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phXWJ6efXhE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pe3tY9mrcHY

Compared to my P09.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IlQfvFpZZE

[GJM]

Haven't wached the vids, as I have poor connectivity now. Wilson makes a Shok Buff thing for the 92 series. I am running one in my 92A1, and have the last 5,000 rounds.

Willshoot packed his Elite slide with the Enos goo, and along with a light spring, felt the sights were very easy to track.

[Steven T]

Watching some of your other video's, could the Wilson fluted guide rod be binding/interfering with the buffer in the frame or binding the spring? Could the guide rod be out of spec as far as size?

I've never looked at a 92A1 so I'm just making a wild guess. I have been thinking about picking one up so I'm interested in what you find. I've been following your posts and videos on both the Beretta and P-09 good stuff. I'll have one or the other shortly, probably both eventually. Just waiting to see what Beretta is bring out this month.

Good luck in diagnosing your problem.

[YVK]

I can't get the first video to play. Seems like excessive forward sight bounce to me. I would change a recoil spring just in case it is defective, and maybe try 9 or 10 lbs.
My two worthless cents.

[Magsz]

YVK

Actually, your opinions DO matter to me.

I find it hard to believe that i would need a lighter recoil spring given the only gun ive ever run a 9lb spring in was my 9mm 1911. I did however just order some lighter springs as i have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

George, when you get a chance, please watch the videos as they are pretty revealing in regard to there being a "problem". Im just not sure how to go about fixing it. I saw that Wilson has a buffer but ive never really had much luck with them. Ive run them in 1911's but i always preferred to run without.

I am going to grab my buddies M9A1 and give it a whirl as i really do think that the internal buffer in the 92A1 series is causing resonance issues.

Any other theories would be greatly appreciated.

[JV_]

Your first video isn't working


This video does not exist.

Sorry about that.



the gun "feels" like it is experiencing coil bind, ie the recoil spring is bottoming out on itself creating a whip like effect

FWIW: I've had aftermarket recoil springs that were too long in a 92. I know you're saying that it's a feel, but have you verified it's not happening? I'd mark the slide and frame with an index mark, at most rear ward point, and try it again without a spring.

[Clobbersaurus]

It may be camera angle but it looks like you are gripping the Beretta differently than the CZ. Your support hand index finger is wrapped under the trigger guard with the CZ, you have a more standard grip with the Beretta. This could be part of it. Just my uniformed opinion.

The bounce you are getting is fairly pronounced though, could your guide rod be binding the recoil spring somehow?

Those are great slow mo vids by the way.

[1986s4]

Do you have a stock 92 to compare it to?

[Magsz]

Let me know if this works guys. I will go ahead and edit the first post if i can.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phXWJ6efXhE

To answer some questions here.

JV, i did check for coil bind. The slide retracts to the same point with and without the spring. What i will say is that the slide retracts TO the frame buffer so it IS hitting it.

In regard to the grip, yes, it is slightly different by sheer virtue of the guns size necessitating a different grip. The 92 is significantly wider BUT the grip is pretty darned close.

I do NOT have a stock 92 BUT i am going to be bogarting the M9A1 that we have in our group and setting up as close to an Apple to Apples comparison as i can as this is really...REALLY bugging me and i want to get to the bottom of this. I know that no one can pick up a gun and expect to be at their peak performance level immediately but ive never experienced this much trouble with trying to learn how to track a recoil impulse. Even with a weak grip, medium grip, strong grip, left hand grip the muzzle just wobbles in space on every shot with a variety of ammo.

Ive shot Sigs and other "high" bore axis guns and no, while they DID have more muzzle rise than say a Glock, they did not experience the spaghetti shuffle like this gun does...

[JV_]

will go ahead and edit the first post if i can.The 30' window passed, I fixed the link.

[nwhpfan]

To me, it looks like you are controlling the pistol with your hands and not enough from your arms, shoulders, and upper body.

Personally, I'd suggest changing those and see what results you get. More athletic slight forward position, add tension through your upper arms, shoulders, triceps, etc....

I would also suggest experimenting with your hand grip.

[GJM]

It would be very helpful if you have access to other 92 pistols (M9, FS, Vertec or Brigadier/Elite) to see if it is Beretta 92 generally, something about you and the 92, or something about the 92A1 (which differs from other 92 models).

[matt7184]

To me, it looks like you are controlling the pistol with your hands and not enough from your arms, shoulders, and upper body.

Personally, I'd suggest changing those and see what results you get. More athletic slight forward position, add tension through your upper arms, shoulders, triceps, etc....

I would also suggest experimenting with your hand grip.

It's not a shooter issue. I have used the same gun.

[Magsz]

It would be very helpful if you have access to other 92 pistols (M9, FS, Vertec or Brigadier/Elite) to see if it is Beretta 92 generally, something about you and the 92, or something about the 92A1 (which differs from other 92 models).

George,

Im working on that and will definitely wring out the M9A1 in our group with the same spring setup and ammo and see if i can duplicate the issue with that gun. Right now, that is the only other Beretta i have access to besides a range rental M9 that has probably seen more rounds than the US military. :)

A gent on another forum mentioned specifically that the slide may be crashing into the buffer creating a weird resonance affect and acceleration of the forward movement of the slide. Going to a heavier spring may retard that phenomenon but may also result in muzzle dip. At least the wobble might be gone...blech. :P

[opmike]

Seems like excessive forward sight bounce to me.

After watching the videos a half a dozen times, this is the only thing anomalous that I can see.

Magsz, is the return to battery "bounce" what you're talking about or are you also feeling something strange on the rearward recoil stroke of the slide as well? I'm not seeing how a buffer or binding spring is going to lead to the front sight bounce shown. Excessive front sight bounce on a properly sprung gun is usually a symptom of how you're tensing your arms and how you're responding to/countering the recoil impulse.

More experienced shooters can probably break this down a lot better. I have serious doubts this problem will disappear by screwing around with spring rates if you're already running an 11lb spring.

[GJM]

Some may recall my Centurion thread from a week or two ago, where I shot my Centurion significantly faster than my 92A1. I attributed that to slide mass. What I need to do is benchmark my Centurion against a Vertec and Elite, and see if it is a shorter versus full size slide thing, or a 92A1 specific issue.

[Magsz]

After watching the videos a half a dozen times, this is the only thing anomalous that I can see.

Magsz, is the return to battery "bounce" what you're talking about or are you also feeling something strange on the rearward recoil stroke of the slide as well? I'm not seeing how a buffer or binding spring is going to lead to the front sight bounce shown. Excessive front sight bounce on a properly sprung gun is usually a symptom of how you're tensing your arms and how you're responding to/countering the recoil impulse.

More experienced shooters can probably break this down a lot better. I have serious doubts this problem will disappear by screwing around with spring rates if you're already running an 11lb spring.

Its the return to battery bounce where you can see the muzzle dip and then kind of wobble in space. In my sight picture i will see the front sight dip to either 7 or 5, then rise to 10 or 2. The muzzle of the gun literally tracks like a figure 8 when the slide CLOSES and returns to battery. I have to fight this gun something fierce to drive my sights where i want them.

The rearward movement is PERFECT, straight to the rear and up out of the notch. The slide, as it returns is also PERFECT in that it drops RIGHT into the notch but once the gun locks up, the muzzle wants to go all wet noodle on me.

I traditionally set my guns up on the lighter side of things. Not quite as light as some guys using cut 10 lb springs in their shadows but usually in the 11 pound range for me. I prefer my sights to settle a hair OUT of the notch so that i can allow gravity to let the gun return to its original point of aim. The technique would be similar to riding the recoil.

George, the 92A1 is the unique gun out of the mix which is why im really leaning towards hardware instead of software. I am the guy that NEVER, EVER looks at his hardware and always looks at the nut behind the wheel. In this instance, the gun seems to be bucking convention and is genuinely confusing me and the only variable here is the fact that i AM shooting a non standard, unique mechanism, ie a non "standard" lock up design. So, in essence, it could be both, hardware AND software but my buddies are all telling me the same thing, my gun (M92A1) is a gigantic wet noodle versus the M9A1 in our club.

[GJM]

I checked in with Ernest Langdon and Bill Wilson. While they have forgotten more than I know about Beretta pistols, they were unable to shed light on this, as neither has much 92A1 time. I am hoping to run a 92A1 against an Elite II and Vertec on the same drills in the next week, as time allows.

[Magsz]

G,

If you dont mind reporting your findings it would be appreciated.

I have 9 and 10 pound recoil springs inbound to test as well as a 12 so i can basically run the entire gamut. There are a few GM's on FB that cut their teeth with Beretta's that mentioned using 9lb recoil springs with reduced power loads so i guess that may be where i need to head but at this point, who knows given the amount of variables we have going on here.

[WilsonCombatRep]

There is no mechanical reason or physical reason why a 92A1 would recoil any differently than a standard 92. Maybe remove the buffer and try again.

[Magsz]

There is no mechanical reason or physical reason why a 92A1 would recoil any differently than a standard 92. Maybe remove the buffer and try again.

That begs the question, CAN you "safely" shoot an M92A1 without the factory aluminum sacrificial buffer? The question could be better posed as follows:

"Is the factory aluminum buffer essential to the operational cycle of the M92A1?".

I know that you probably shouldnt answer that for liability reasons but i figured i would pose the question anyway.

[JTQ]

Did the gun perform this way in stock form, before you changed the springs around?

[Magsz]

Did the gun perform this way in stock form, before you changed the springs around?

Yes but i attributed the "issue" to my lack of familiarity with the system. I never just pick up a gun and get the sight tracking down immediately. It usually takes me between two and five thousand rounds to REALLY get the rhythm of the pistol. This however, is just...weird as the slide is reciprocating like nothing ive ever experienced.

Ive got 1860 rounds through the gun and i am fighting this more than ive ever fought my Glocks, M&P's, CZ's or 1911's. Id like to try and figure out a solution as i do like what the gun has to offer in regard to trigger, ergo's parts availability and general cool factor. I shoot for fun and competition so the pistol is simply a toy that i want to play with.

[GJM]

This is what I posted in my Centurion thread. Needs Elite/Vertec info to round out the picture.



Today, I had a full up practice session using my Wilson tuned 92A1. It has a fantastic trigger and has been a primary shooter for me. Yet to have a stoppage in over 10,000 rounds. Gorgeous pistol.

One drill my wife and I were doing is three eight inch steel from the draw at 13, 16 and 18 yards. Big wide transition between the 16 and 18 yard targets. My average time with the 92A1 was 2.75, with a 1.30 +/- draw and .70ish splits to the other two steel. My best time was 2.53. This was over about 20 runs.

I decided to grab my carry Beretta, which is a very stockish Centurion with a front sighted painted orange with a Sharpie paint stick, Crimson Trace military laser grips (which I couldn't see in bright desert sunlight), and a Dave Olhasso trigger job. The trigger is good, but no better than my Wilson trigger on the 92A1 which is superb. My first run with the Centurion was 2.25, my next run was 2.23, and over 10 runs my average was 2.25 with a best run of 2.08 (.99 draw to the 13 yard steel, .66 and .43 splits to the two other steel). Same ammo for both pistols, PMC 115 ball.

It seems conclusive to me that the Centurion length slide cycles better/faster than the full length Beretta 92 slide. At the end, I shot a quick three shot group on the head of an IPSC target at 25 yards, with what I had left in the magazine, and all three shots were in the upper A zone and could be covered by ONE paster. So it doesn't seem like the Centurion is giving up anything in practical accuracy.

A Vertec G Centurion with a M9A1 style lower would be my holy grail of a combo carry/game pistol.

[Magsz]

Roger,

This would jive in accordance of my general love of G17's versus G34's.

I still think something else is afoot here so more testing on my end is required.

[Jared]

I've never noticed my 92A1's recoiling any differently compared to my other 92's, but I'm not having the issues you are having either. When the slide goes back in to battery for me, once it locks up, the sights are right where they were before the recoil started (assuming I didn't screw my grip up somehow).

Come to think of it, my 96A1 tracks just fine for me too, although I swear I can feel the bullet hit the feed ramp when it leaves the magazine, or something. I always figured it was just a Beretta .40 thing and didn't think too much of it.

[YVK]

I find it hard to believe that i would need a lighter recoil spring given the only gun ive ever run a 9lb spring in was my 9mm 1911. I did however just order some lighter springs as i have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

Somebody told me that Stoeger used 9 lbs recoil spring in his Elites. According to weight measurements done by Bill Wilson, 92A1 slide is not far off the Brig slide, so mebbe 9 would work out. I presume that recommendation to pump the slide with Slide Glide stems from a need to facilitate cycling when using such low weight spring.

That said, I think this isn't the only issue. It may shoot better with 9, but I don't think it should absolutely require 9. I vaguely remember a work order from David Olhasso on those 4 or 5 guns GJM had sent him. One of them had some issue with a slide bind, I think. George, am I making it up, or my memory is simply amazing?

[GJM]

One of them had some issue with a slide bind, I think. George, am I making it up, or my memory is simply amazing?

One did, but it had to do with mounting the slide and not cycling once together.

OK, here is some raw footage shooting two Bill drills end of my session with an Elite II. Don't have the software to slow mo it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WKta3fBDnI

[Magsz]

Youtube will actually do that for you in the editor. If you dont have a high enough native resolution and frame rate it will look horrific though.

[farscott]

Its the return to battery bounce where you can see the muzzle dip and then kind of wobble in space. In my sight picture i will see the front sight dip to either 7 or 5, then rise to 10 or 2. The muzzle of the gun literally tracks like a figure 8 when the slide CLOSES and returns to battery. I have to fight this gun something fierce to drive my sights where i want them.

The rearward movement is PERFECT, straight to the rear and up out of the notch. The slide, as it returns is also PERFECT in that it drops RIGHT into the notch but once the gun locks up, the muzzle wants to go all wet noodle on me.

I traditionally set my guns up on the lighter side of things. Not quite as light as some guys using cut 10 lb springs in their shadows but usually in the 11 pound range for me. I prefer my sights to settle a hair OUT of the notch so that i can allow gravity to let the gun return to its original point of aim. The technique would be similar to riding the recoil.

George, the 92A1 is the unique gun out of the mix which is why im really leaning towards hardware instead of software. I am the guy that NEVER, EVER looks at his hardware and always looks at the nut behind the wheel. In this instance, the gun seems to be bucking convention and is genuinely confusing me and the only variable here is the fact that i AM shooting a non standard, unique mechanism, ie a non "standard" lock up design. So, in essence, it could be both, hardware AND software but my buddies are all telling me the same thing, my gun (M92A1) is a gigantic wet noodle versus the M9A1 in our club.

I am not a Beretta 92 shooter, but the same symptoms in a 9x19 1911 usually means the recoil spring rate is too high for the load. The muzzle dip is the extra closing force on the slide acting as a lever. IF this was a 9x19 1911, I would try a 9# spring to see if that reduces/alleviates the muzzle dip. One thing I have learned about 9x19 1911s that may be applicable is that each sample needs to be evaluated for the proper recoil spring for the load. I have several different 9x19 1911s and I run three different recoil springs in them for the same load. I wonder if the same phenomenon is at work with this pistol.

[Magsz]

I am not a Beretta 92 shooter, but the same symptoms in a 9x19 1911 usually means the recoil spring rate is too high for the load. The muzzle dip is the extra closing force on the slide acting as a lever. IF this was a 9x19 1911, I would try a 9# spring to see if that reduces/alleviates the muzzle dip. One thing I have learned about 9x19 1911s that may be applicable is that each sample needs to be evaluated for the proper recoil spring for the load. I have several different 9x19 1911s and I run three different recoil springs in them for the same load. I wonder if the same phenomenon is at work with this pistol.

Possibly,

Im no stranger to tuning guns via recoil springs however, i am a bit of a stranger to very light springs, especially on a gun that has a supposed "light" slide. Im a Glock and CZ guy with only one 9mm 1911 and all of my guns generally run 11 lb springs. The only gun that ive ever tuned lighter than 11 lbs was that 9mm 1911 so im always a little skeptical when i find a gun that MAY need a lighter spring. I do know that alot of Limited shooters with light weight 2011 slides run eight or nine pound springs so perhaps i should have pulled my head out of my ass sooner and made the connection.

The thing that "got" me on this was the fact that im so used to 11 lb springs i just couldnt wrap my head around a lightweight slide potentially needing a lighter spring. All of the symptoms lined up with the need for further tuning yet something else seemed to be at play, ie coil bind, frame battering or god knows what else.

Here's to hoping Wolf gets me the lightweight springs before the weekend so that i can adequately test this.

[farscott]

Did some digging and found the following: 1) The 9x19 1911 slide weight is 13 ounces. 2) The 92 slide weight is 12 ounces. The difference is much less than I expected.

[Magsz]

Did some digging and found the following: 1) The 9x19 1911 slide weight is 13 ounces. 2) The 92 slide weight is 12 ounces. The difference is much less than I expected.

Interesting.

This jives with my experiences with the 9mm guns, the slides felt wonky until i got the spring rate tuned properly and i had to go way lighter than expected.

[GJM]

I shot a Glock 17 today, trying to compare it to the Beretta. I found the sights much, much easier to track on the Glock. No idea what it means.

[Magsz]

I am a moron...

I was working on my 92A1 slide today and a black metal ring fell out. I had no clue what it was until i put two and two together and realized that it was the bushing that was on the OEM guide rod. I originally took my rod apart with it IN the gun so the bushing had been in there ever since.

I had been running the wolf springs with the bushing on the wilson guide rod which you're not supposed to do. I believe, heavy emphasis on believe that the bushing was compressing the longer Wolf spring more than it was designed to compress.

I have removed the bushing and will be going to the range tonight, tomorrow and Sunday for testing. I will report back. I really...really...really hope that im on to something here...

[Jared]

I am a moron...

I was working on my 92A1 slide today and a black metal ring fell out. I had no clue what it was until i put two and two together and realized that it was the bushing that was on the OEM guide rod. I originally took my rod apart with it IN the gun so the bushing had been in there ever since.

I had been running the wolf springs with the bushing on the wilson guide rod which you're not supposed to do. I believe, heavy emphasis on believe that the bushing was compressing the longer Wolf spring more than it was designed to compress.

I have removed the bushing and will be going to the range tonight, tomorrow and Sunday for testing. I will report back. I really...really...really hope that im on to something here...

I really think that that bushing is supposed to be in there all the time on a 92A1. I've read before that it needs to be installed when using the old style Beretta guide rod in a 92A1 in place of the captured unit. My info could be wrong, but I do know that the difference in slide dimensions between the 92A1 and the standard 92's is the area of the slide where the guide rod passes through the slide. It's wider. Enough wider that a 92A1 will not go in an M9A1 holster, in spite of the fact that they are both railed Beretta 92's.

[WilsonCombatRep]

I am a moron...

I was working on my 92A1 slide today and a black metal ring fell out. I had no clue what it was until i put two and two together and realized that it was the bushing that was on the OEM guide rod. I originally took my rod apart with it IN the gun so the bushing had been in there ever since.

I had been running the wolf springs with the bushing on the wilson guide rod which you're not supposed to do. I believe, heavy emphasis on believe that the bushing was compressing the longer Wolf spring more than it was designed to compress.

I have removed the bushing and will be going to the range tonight, tomorrow and Sunday for testing. I will report back. I really...really...really hope that im on to something here...

There you go..

[taadski]

I've been watching this thread with interest. Glad you may have found the solution.


t

[Magsz]

I really think that that bushing is supposed to be in there all the time on a 92A1. I've read before that it needs to be installed when using the old style Beretta guide rod in a 92A1 in place of the captured unit. My info could be wrong, but I do know that the difference in slide dimensions between the 92A1 and the standard 92's is the area of the slide where the guide rod passes through the slide. It's wider. Enough wider that a 92A1 will not go in an M9A1 holster, in spite of the fact that they are both railed Beretta 92's.

Negative ghostrider.

The wilson rod has the same outer diameter as the factory 92A1 rod, in fact, the Wilson rod is a few thousandths larger. That bushing simply serves as a method to keep the spring retained on the factory plastic rod.

[Jared]

Negative ghostrider.

The wilson rod has the same outer diameter as the factory 92A1 rod, in fact, the Wilson rod is a few thousandths larger. That bushing simply serves as a method to keep the spring retained on the factory plastic rod.

Good to know. Guess I got bad info before.

[Magsz]

Not the best video in the world as i was pressed for time but the first clip shows my 92A1 with the clipped, correctly installed 11 lb spring. Not quite as bouncy but still a bit of flubber going on there. The second clip is an M9A1 with a 12 lb spring. Not the same angle and hard to tell but it didnt oscillate quite as much. My springs came in today so another range trip this weekend will be in order to test a 9 and 10 lb spring in the 92A1.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94-vrvnKeNA

[Sal Picante]

Not the best video in the world as i was pressed for time but the first clip shows my 92A1 with the clipped, correctly installed 11 lb spring. Not quite as bouncy but still a bit of flubber going on there. The second clip is an M9A1 with a 12 lb spring. Not the same angle and hard to tell but it didnt oscillate quite as much. My springs came in today so another range trip this weekend will be in order to test a 9 and 10 lb spring in the 92A1.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94-vrvnKeNA

Hmmm... I notice that the guns are devoid of grease... I think a 9# will be the ticket...

The following footage is of the Elite with a 9# spring and a ton of grease... (I'm 6'4" and weight 240, so, ugh, I think that helps a bit too...)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYzSb37iiX4

[Rich]

I don't care for the Impulse the 147gr loads have in my HK P30S.

I can tell a big difference between standard pressure 124gr and 147gr.


You might try just using 115gr and 124gr bullets.

[Magsz]

I don't care for the Impulse the 147gr loads have in my HK P30S.

I can tell a big difference between standard pressure 124gr and 147gr.


You might try just using 115gr and 124gr bullets.

Already on it. Working up a 124 grain load today for testing this weekend.

[Rich]

Good luck

[Magsz]

Problem fixed.

The gun does have a unique recoil impulse but here is what was going on.

I loaded up some Bayou 124's at 1.15 length on top of 4.5 grains of WST and mixed brass. I chrono'd using MY chronograph and got 131k power factor. I re-chrono'd the ammo i used to shoot the videos and...yeah...140k power factor...the ammo was HOT as hell which explains why the gun was bouncing around everywhere with the springs that were in the gun.

I also threw in a 9 lb recoil spring from wolf and the gun shoots like a dream albeit in a unique manner with the new ammo.

Also, a note. With the round nosed bayou rounds, the chamber is like a hot dog in a hallway. I could load the bayou RN bullet to 1.169 which is the saami max length for 9mm with no issues.

Cool! I am going to keep shooting this thing and see how it holds up with the light springs. 2800 rounds down the pipe and still going strong...for now.

[Fire-Medic]

Problem fixed.

The gun does have a unique recoil impulse but here is what was going on.

I loaded up some Bayou 124's at 1.15 length on top of 4.5 grains of WST and mixed brass. I chrono'd using MY chronograph and got 131k power factor. I re-chrono'd the ammo i used to shoot the videos and...yeah...140k power factor...the ammo was HOT as hell which explains why the gun was bouncing around everywhere with the springs that were in the gun.

I also threw in a 9 lb recoil spring from wolf and the gun shoots like a dream albeit in a unique manner with the new ammo.

Also, a note. With the round nosed bayou rounds, the chamber is like a hot dog in a hallway. I could load the bayou RN bullet to 1.169 which is the saami max length for 9mm with no issues.

Cool! I am going to keep shooting this thing and see how it holds up with the light springs. 2800 rounds down the pipe and still going strong...for now.

Did the POI change with the 124r load?

[Magsz]

Yes, its still a smidge high at 25 yards but its WAY better, ie its acceptable. Its about 2 inches high at 25 which i can deal with.

[Fire-Medic]

Yes, its still a smidge high at 25 yards but its WAY better, ie its acceptable. Its about 2 inches high at 25 which i can deal with.

That's good glad it's working out brother.

[Rich]

2inches aint so bad!

If hind sight was 20/20 I wish I would of bought a 92A2 / M9A1 or MK25 over my P30S 9mm!
Don't get me wrong my P30S is a good pistol it just that I think the above pistols shoot softer .

BTW how long have you been a TDA shooter. We are a rare breed now a days.

[Magsz]

Rich,

No, two inches certainly isnt bad and i actually prefer a slightly high POI versus a POA/POI situation. I can deal with high, i cant deal with low.

It will be two years come January and i really do enjoy it.

[Fire-Medic]

After some solid time back with the block I want to revisit TDA especially with AIWB carry......

Magsz, when I'm free let me know if you need some range time I renewed at the club in the keys :D