FNG- Hardware Questions.........

[Fire-Medic]

Some of the guys around here know me from other boards, and I by no means am a good shooter in comparison to 99% of the people around here so bare with me here, but I think the environment from reading around here is one that someone can be free to ask questions (no matter how dumb) and get some solid feedback and learn something in the process.

I got into shooting around late 2008 or early 2009 at 28-29 years old. I grew up in a family that was not anti gun, but the males just had a revolver and a shotgun in the closet and maybe put a box of ammo through each in a calendar year.

I learned to shoot on a Colt 1911 plain jane series 70 and it was an awesome (and fun experience). Once I got "formal" training the macho ego's were running abundant and I was told I needed to have something plastic that didn't require an armorer to run every day like a 1911 (not my words or beliefs, I LOVE the 1911 platform). My first gun was a first gen 9MM Springfield XD service model in 9mm. It was cheap and it was two tone (I'm a sucker for a two tone gun ;) ) Well after my first pistol class with a local LEO trainer who later became a good friend, we basically traded his G19 for my XD. The XD and I did not get along with that minimal grip safety when clearing jams..... ( I know, a training issue)

And so began my time with Glocks, and my Love/Hate relationship with them. I say that because a thread I came across that Todd started struck a chord with me, because I swear he could have VERY easily been talking about me. "Passion for the Gun" has hit home with me like no other thread I have ever taken the time to read on any forum, EVER.

I have always shot Glocks, then sold them off and switched to something else, then come back to them, etc, etc. Usually it has been Glock,1911, Glock, 1911, etc, etc. But I have dabbled with a few other guns at times, A SIG P229r once in 40, some USP and P30 HK's 40/9, plenty of 1911's including Wilsons, and a very unpleasant experience with early 9MM M&P handguns. As I have aged a little and been around shooting more, I now come to understand that a lot of the people I "trusted" to give me handgun advice were doing so for ulterior motives. IE, my gun would go to them for modification, they were wanting to unload a used gun on me, etc.

I have more trigger time behind a Glock by far, than anything else, and I can do anything I would want to with a Glock for myself, except mill work because I've never done that type of work. But sights, triggers, grip work etc. (And I know this doesn't mean I'm a gunsmith, but it makes the platform user serviceable for me on my end) Having said that, just like M_S was quoted by Todd saying, the Glock just doesn't make me "want" to go out and shoot, maybe at first but the honeymoon phase wears off quickly, and faster each time I move away and come back.

Truth be told the DA/SA guns I have had I liked, but always got rid of them because the instructors available to me in the past have not liked those type of triggers and bad mouthed them or even in one case made it a point to embarrass me in front of the entire class because I was wearing a Sig P229R (and in a rifle class no less).

I have shot the DA/SA guns well, but not as fast accurately as the Glocks, but I have never been taught how to properly run those type of pistols either.

So what's the point to all my rambling, well I have been on a shooting hiatus for about a year or so due to things that have happened to me in life, with work (financial) and health. Now I'm in a spot to come back but my focus is different. I REALLY want to LEARN to shoot better, and I want to try my hand locally at USPSA. I have found a wealth of information on this forum for training tips, and I know I haven't scratched the surface. Thing is, right now I can't afford to have a Wilson CQB on my waist and another $2K+ pistol on the night stand and as a backup. The money isn't what it use to be, and we have a bigger family than we use to.

I'm not an operator, I don't pretend to be anyone I'm not, I'm a regular Joe family man that really enjoys shooting, and I want to get things going on another level. I do reload so that helps as the machine is there and some components so it won't take me much to get going again in that capacity.

So, all of that long winded BS being said, where do I go from here. Do I go grab a G34 and a G19 for competition and CCW, and then get bored of the platform in another couple of months like always, or do I take a look at something else? Is it time to get into DA/SA and dedicate myself to the trigger.....?

I am fortunate enough in that tomorrow I have a range trip scheduled with a local acquaintence and I will be shooting for the first time in over a year and will get my hands on the following:
-G34
-G17
-Sig P226R
-CZ P-09
-Beretta 92A1

The Sig is a rental, and the rest are his. He shoots USPSA, and has a hard on for the CZ after moving from Glocks but is dabbling with the Beretta now as well. So he will be biased. I wish I had a P30 to re evaluate because that is one pistol I really enjoyed shooting.

So as stupid as it sounds, what should I look for tomorrow shooting all of these guns? How many rounds should I put through them? We will be at an indoor range with max 25 yards.

What do I consider for my next firearms purchase. I can't afford to get caught up in the try this and that BS again....... and I definitely can't afford to Call wilson and order another XTAC spec'd how I would like. It does help that the local LE distributor gives me good guy pricing for being state certified as a Medic, and they do it for all brands not just the Glocks. So maybe that plays into some advice.

I know I'm all over, and have written a very long winded post, but maybe aside fro helping myself here with feedback, someone else lurking and in the same spot will gain something too.

I would genuinely appreciate any constructive input here from the peanut gallery. Remember, at one point in all of this, all of us knew next to nothing, because we were new at it.

FM :D

[MEH]

[snip] I REALLY want to LEARN to shoot better, and I want to try my hand locally at USPSA.

[snip]

So, all of that long winded BS being said, where do I go from here. Do I go grab a G34 and a G19 for competition and CCW, and then get bored of the platform in another couple of months like always, or do I take a look at something else? Is it time to get into DA/SA and dedicate myself to the trigger.....?


Decide what you really want to do! If it's really to shoot better and/or local competitions then platform won't matter much. Pick the Glock and move on. When you get bored take time off, then pick it up again. I wish I had taken my own advice years ago. I would be less poor now. :)

[okie john]

You're overthinking it. Get a pair of G17's and stick with them. They'll work if you make them, but if you keep losing focus then nothing will work.


Okie John

[JHC]

At the range, maybe don't just blast away ammo and look for subjective "feel" type stuff.

One idea might be to get warmed up with some shots and shoot the Bill Drill #2 from ready if you can't draw on the range; plus having holster setups would be a stretch. Hardly matters if you even time it; using a timer on a indoor public range won't work anyway I don't suppose.

I think that drill is very awesome for repetitively learning from seeing the gun and sights in recoil for hits.

Another idea might be to shoot (also from the ready) the first 7 yard stage of the 99 Drill with them on 4x6 cards, heck or at a range sold bullseye for all that it matters. Maybe the 10 yard stage of the 99 Drill too. The 99 Drill is IMO a crazy useful drill and test and again, you'll get side by side comparos and your eyes will see the same feedback over and over.

With your history and prior experience a big Glock and a little Glock might make the most practical sense for competition and carry.

I think Todd made a ton of sense with his argument that a full size Glock and a G26 covered about the widest span of use and capability within a platform as two guns could.

[Super77]

I'd take a look at a Walther PPQ as well. If I wasn't invested in other pistols that's what I'd lean towards.

[tomr]

If you have a love hate relationship with the Glock and you're quoting Todd's "Passion For the Gun," I'm not sure why we're giving you advice to go back to Glock. You sound like what some around here refer to as an "enthusiast" and I proudly wear that same mantle. Truth be told, seems like most who come here are gun nuts of one kind or another.

Sound's like you had/have some passion for the 1911 and as an enthusiast, you don't have to defend that choice at all. CZs are cool, especially if from CZ Custom, or one of those. A Beretta, is well respected, has a lot of shoot-ability (thinking about going to the range, instead of compromising so one can wear the gun inside your pants pointing at your privates). And with Wilson's customizing, not only do you have access to some cool modding - we all like to do that - but you have some assurance theres a real "future" for these. The new H&K VP9 is really cool, though some of that may be its newness, but it seems a bit more exciting than Glock.

You can get serious training help using any of these. And all would provide some entry to one of the action shooting games. Let the fun begin.

[Fire-Medic]

I'm awaiting to see if I can find out whether or not the $200 HK rebate starting on purchases on Nov 1 will apply to LE purchases, if it does apply, then it might shake up the whole thing. ;)

And yes Tomr, I am an enthusiast and I like to tinker, but I want to focus this time around on just training and was wanting feedback form the collective group. I do appreciate yours and all the post thus far.

[FotoTomas]

I have a forty plus year history with a variety of handguns I have carried on military or police duty and for various competitions. I also have a bunch I admired and played with just because. Today I still have several I carry and compete with for a variety of reasons and I like'em all. That being said there is nothing wrong with you having a "gun of the month" hobby.

If you want to "get serious" then I think you can have your cake and eat it too within reason. In my case the old M1911A1 I learned on in the Army is mostly a safe queen. My Berettas, SIG, Glocks and revolvers are all DAO and easy to transition from one to the other. Except for the revolvers which require a more practiced manual of arms for proficiency, the other handguns are easy to get up to speed on and transition back and forth. This will NOT however allow you to achieve peak performance. For that...pick one and promise yourself to commit to it for a year of serious study and then see where you are and where you want to go.

In my case I am a middle of the road shooter in the various disciplines I compete in and aim to do better but am quite happy with my hobby. As a police Instructor I shoot better than any of the officers I instruct and am at the top of the pile in my office. This simply proves how mediocre common LE training is, not how good I am. Even so I am happy to know that I shoot better than my at work peers but am not the hottest pistolero at my gun club because I still shoot more for fun than for work.

Decide if you want to excell to a very high level and dedicate yourself to a platform to achieve it or instead simplify your collection and have fun while trying to get better.

No "right" answer, more of a "what makes you happy" answer. :)

[foxsimple]

Glocks will serve you well, but if you dont like them shoot something else. I would suggest a look at the sig 226 sao or the new sig p320. With the 320 you have the option to shoot a full size slide for competition and then change it out for a smaller slide for carry.

I really like the single action only sig. It mimicks a 1911 with safety and consistent trigger pull but it holds 15+ rounds and is reliable.

[Fire-Medic]

I have a forty plus year history with a variety of handguns I have carried on military or police duty and for various competitions. I also have a bunch I admired and played with just because. Today I still have several I carry and compete with for a variety of reasons and I like'em all. That being said there is nothing wrong with you having a "gun of the month" hobby.

If you want to "get serious" then I think you can have your cake and eat it too within reason. In my case the old M1911A1 I learned on in the Army is mostly a safe queen. My Berettas, SIG, Glocks and revolvers are all DAO and easy to transition from one to the other. Except for the revolvers which require a more practiced manual of arms for proficiency, the other handguns are easy to get up to speed on and transition back and forth. This will NOT however allow you to achieve peak performance. For that...pick one and promise yourself to commit to it for a year of serious study and then see where you are and where you want to go.

In my case I am a middle of the road shooter in the various disciplines I compete in and aim to do better but am quite happy with my hobby. As a police Instructor I shoot better than any of the officers I instruct and am at the top of the pile in my office. This simply proves how mediocre common LE training is, not how good I am. Even so I am happy to know that I shoot better than my at work peers but am not the hottest pistolero at my gun club because I still shoot more for fun than for work.

Decide if you want to excell to a very high level and dedicate yourself to a platform to achieve it or instead simplify your collection and have fun while trying to get better.

No "right" answer, more of a "what makes you happy" answer. :)

Thanks for your insight. I have no desire (or illusion) that in a years time I'm gonna be a sponsored shooter on someones team, but my shooting is not anywhere near where I would like it to be. I appreciate your words of wisdom.

FM

[GardoneVT]

To keep it short, my only advice is to pick a gun you'll WANT to own. If logic were the only criterion for a defensive pistol, this would be called Glock-Forum.com .

Yet.

Speaking only for myself, I would rather wrench on a 1911 for an hour then look at a Glock for ten minutes. I have to like the gun I own, cosmetically and in terms of performance.Otherwise , shooting becomes a chore and I end up de-motivated. Some folks love shooting plastic, soulless service guns. Nuthin' wrong with that. But I carry an illogically heavy and hard to shoot gun, because the logical alternative is so unappealing I'd rather not bother.

You have to find the gun you'll want to see on your nightstand when you wake up in the morning, or this whole path of being a trained shooter will be boring and unpleasant.

[JHC]

Fire-Medic,
I'd like to see you clarify that "passion" thing. In the context of that old thread it was to generally find disdain for modern polymer framed striker guns - Glock especially and go for guns with "soul" that inspire the soul! As I've said I'm more passionate about performance than pride of ownership so I found that thread a bit off. ;)

What did YOU mean by that? (passion thing)

[Fire-Medic]

Fire-Medic,
I'd like to see you clarify that "passion" thing. In the context of that old thread it was to generally find disdain for modern polymer framed striker guns - Glock especially and go for guns with "soul" that inspire the soul! As I've said I'm more passionate about performance than pride of ownership so I found that thread a bit off. ;)

What did YOU mean by that? (passion thing)

I'm referring to the same sentiment, hence my comments saying Todd could have very well been talking about me saying the same thing that M-S was quoted in saying:

Quote Originally Posted by Magic_Salad0892 View Post
Also, and I think this is important in a personal weapon: I don't feel passionate about firing a Glock anymore.

http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?11538-The-Passion-of-the-Gun&highlight=passion

I get to a point with the Glocks where I don't feel motivated to go shoot, it's just whatever, I'm not thinking about practicing and it becomes more of chore or feels like just work and no fun, and you know what maybe some of the more experienced guys will tell me "hey kid, guess what, developing your SD skills, and getting better at USPSA is work, and not a lot of fun" but I really can't imagine that and don't want to. I really do enjoy shooting, it's my happy place, no honey do's from the wife, no kids bickering with each other or complaining that their not watching the episode of "Barbie" they wanted to see on Netflix (I have 3 girls ), etc. Just me, the gun, and the targets. When the timer goes off I feel quiet. Just the thoughts in my head, like how when I use to play football, those times when you're in the zone, and you're playing in a packed stadium, yet you don't hear the crowd. But "for me" the gun being the vehicle, has a lot to do with the journey. And please folks, I understand, it's a tool, I get it, but that doesn't mean you can't have more meaning behind it than that, right? Or am I just on an eternal search to find let down?

When I owned my 1911's or my HK's, I was even keeping excel spreadsheets with round counts I was so damn excited about shooting those guns, but the consensus is the 1911 is impractical, a solid one these days cost a lot for the average joe (like me) so forget a backup just for carry and one to train, and the HK's were "garbage because of outdated triggers with DA/SA" and for me the LEM just led to a lot of short stroking looking to ride the reset like a Glock. Mind you those are not my thoughts on the HK I say that in jest as is what I would encounter when seeking training.

Maybe I'm just looking for some enlightenment that I will never find....... wouldn't be the craziest thing I've ever done...... :rolleyes:

[JHC]

Wow. In that case, the "Pistol, 9mm, 1 each" Glock may not be the "arrow" to just focus on the "indian" part. PM Bruce Gray about the 320. It's still exotic. ;)

[GardoneVT]

I'm referring to the same sentiment, hence my comments saying Todd could have very well been talking about me saying the same thing that M-S was quoted in saying:

Quote Originally Posted by Magic_Salad0892 View Post
Also, and I think this is important in a personal weapon: I don't feel passionate about firing a Glock anymore.

http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?11538-The-Passion-of-the-Gun&highlight=passion

I get to a point with the Glocks where I don't feel motivated to go shoot, it's just whatever, I'm not thinking about practicing and it becomes more of chore or feels like just work and no fun, and you know what maybe some of the more experienced guys will tell me "hey kid, guess what, developing your SD skills, and getting better at USPSA is work, and not a lot of fun" but I really can't imagine that and don't want to. I really do enjoy shooting, it's my happy place, no honey do's from the wife, no kids bickering with each other or complaining that their not watching the episode of "Barbie" they wanted to see on Netflix (I have 3 girls ), etc. Just me, the gun, and the targets. When the timer goes off I feel quiet. Just the thoughts in my head, like how when I use to play football, those times when you're in the zone, and you're playing in a packed stadium, yet you don't hear the crowd. But "for me" the gun being the vehicle, has a lot to do with the journey. And please folks, I understand, it's a tool, I get it, but that doesn't mean you can't have more meaning behind it than that, right? Or am I just on an eternal search to find let down?

When I owned my 1911's or my HK's, I was even keeping excel spreadsheets with round counts I was so damn excited about shooting those guns, but the consensus is the 1911 is impractical, a solid one these days cost a lot for the average joe (like me) so forget a backup just for carry and one to train, and the HK's were "garbage because of outdated triggers with DA/SA" and for me the LEM just led to a lot of short stroking looking to ride the reset like a Glock. Mind you those are not my thoughts on the HK I say that in jest as is what I would encounter when seeking training.

Maybe I'm just looking for some enlightenment that I will never find....... wouldn't be the craziest thing I've ever done...... :rolleyes:
It makes sense to me,if that is any consolation.There is a world of difference between shooting a weapon you like versus one you're just firing for skill acquisition. This topic is so divisive because everyone has a different view-some guys think owning anything more then two Glock 17s is a waste of money, whereas some of us can't stand even looking at them and won't accept anything not made of metal and wood as a proper firearm.

Just like there are millionaires who think driving anything other then a Toyota Camry is a waste of funds, there are others in lesser tax brackets who wont be caught dead driving something so boring. Such differences are what make America great. :cool:

[Fire-Medic]

It makes sense to me,if that is any consolation.There is a world of difference between shooting a weapon you like versus one you're just firing for skill acquisition. This topic is so divisive because everyone has a different view-some guys think owning anything more then two Glock 17s is a waste of money, whereas some of us can't stand even looking at them and won't accept anything not made of metal and wood as a proper firearm.

Just like there are millionaires who think driving anything other then a Toyota Camry is a waste of funds, there are others in lesser tax brackets who wont be caught dead driving something so boring. Such differences are what make America great. :cool:

Yes and I agree, and I also don't want this to turn into a "Why I hate Glocks" thread, definitely NOT my intention.

My last personally owned Glock was a G22 I worked on, and most people would say ewww looks disgusting, but I did it up myself like a good lego master (not gunsmith) and it felt good to do functional improvements that worked "for me". They just have gotten to bore me, and my fiasco with my early Gen 4 9mm's left a bad taste..... but that's another debate about limp wristing and what not :p

http://i325.photobucket.com/albums/k366/ffgabe/Toys/20131220_230737_zps7f33fd16.jpg

I guess it's boiling down to what's cheaper/logical vs what cost more and makes me "want" to shoot more regardless of how silly others may view the reasons of why gun X may want to make me shoot more. Possibly I already know my answer, but I just wanted to get some feedback from the been there done that group, because this trap of Glock, brand x, Glock, brand y, gets old and luckily I haven't lost my rear too much in swapping around when I have, partly due to discounted pricing on most of the guns.

[Malamute]

If you can reasonably afford to own more than one, then I see no reason not to. I own an older g-19, I enjoyed shooting it the first couple years I had it, but I don't enjoy it all that much now. It has a purpose, I carry it at times, but that niche (concealed or town use) isn't the major one for me. Could I likely shoot it better if I enjoyed it and actually shot it much? Probably. I prefer shooting revolvers much more, so I do.

[45dotACP]

Glocks will serve you well, but if you dont like them shoot something else. I would suggest a look at the sig 226 sao or the new sig p320. With the 320 you have the option to shoot a full size slide for competition and then change it out for a smaller slide for carry.

I really like the single action only sig. It mimicks a 1911 with safety and consistent trigger pull but it holds 15+ rounds and is reliable.

I am very interested by the SAO Sigs. As far as finding a gun you are passionate about, different people get excited by different guns. I have a glock (as do many shooters) and I shoot it fairly well (as do most people with glocks) but the gun just flat out doesn't interest me.

For the OP:
I'd look at a Wilson tuned Beretta. If that isn't feasible, I'd recommend a Browning Hi Power. These are guns I own (just a regular Beretta, no Wilson love alas), so I am biased. I hear Sig 226's are good and I hear CZ's are good, but I have no experience, so I'll not comment to those.

I'll say this. I think you may have been poisoned by the mindset that you can't go into a gunshop and buy a Colt 1911 and walk out with a perfectly serviceable sidearm for self defense. You don't need to spend Wilson level money to get a 1911 to run well. You don't even need to spend Wilson level money to get an out of box 1911 to run well. People say things like "Oh the Colt 1911 is a good gun, but they just aren't reliable until you put 2,000 bucks worth of custom work into them." and I'm over here all "ummm, wat?"

Seriously, I'm counting down the days until the Interwebz says the following: "Well, the Beretta 92 is a reliable gun, but the locking blocks break and will throw the slide through your teeth unless you get the guys at Wilson to put 950 bucks worth of custom work into them."

Mark my words, you will all see the day.

Seriously. If you like 1911's, I'd recommend carrying one. It's not the best gun to carry to the sandbox, but if you live in Kandahar, I'd recommend that Wilson 92...because awesome.

ETA: If you're looking for something less expensive than a Wilson tuned Beretta, a Beretta 92A1 with a D spring is also just fine. I'd pick one over a Sig because I actually like carrying on safe. But I have weird thumbs. Thumbs that can reach up and flip the safety off.

[Fire-Medic]

I am very interested by the SAO Sigs. As far as finding a gun you are passionate about, different people get excited by different guns. I have a glock (as do many shooters) and I shoot it fairly well (as do most people with glocks) but the gun just flat out doesn't interest me.

For the OP:
I'd look at a Wilson tuned Beretta. If that isn't feasible, I'd recommend a Browning Hi Power. These are guns I own (just a regular Beretta, no Wilson love alas), so I am biased. I hear Sig 226's are good and I hear CZ's are good, but I have no experience, so I'll not comment to those.

I'll say this. I think you may have been poisoned by the mindset that you can't go into a gunshop and buy a Colt 1911 and walk out with a perfectly serviceable sidearm for self defense. You don't need to spend Wilson level money to get a 1911 to run well. You don't even need to spend Wilson level money to get an out of box 1911 to run well. People say things like "Oh the Colt 1911 is a good gun, but they just aren't reliable until you put 2,000 bucks worth of custom work into them." and I'm over here all "ummm, wat?"

Seriously, I'm counting down the days until the Interwebz says the following: "Well, the Beretta 92 is a reliable gun, but the locking blocks break and will throw the slide through your teeth unless you get the guys at Wilson to put 950 bucks worth of custom work into them."

Mark my words, you will all see the day.

Seriously. If you like 1911's, I'd recommend carrying one. It's not the best gun to carry to the sandbox, but unless you live in Kandahar, I'd recommend that Wilson 92...because awesome.

My current only I would NEVER sell pistol is the BHP from 1972 (Belgium) that my father in law left me. That pistol could tell some stories that I can't share lol.

As for the 1911, I'm with you, as my last two 1911's were a pair of Colt Rail Guns which I put a hurting on while I owned them. One of them was worked over by a "Smif" after another forum member took possession and I'll be damned if the pics of the final results didn't get my juices flowing. Finances forced a change in direction but I was having fun with them and they were the first series 80's guns I had ever shot because of the interwebz and the "Series 80 trigger suck"..... um ok...... (Had never previously considered a Series 80, til I spoke to a few guys who actually knew a thing or two)

I am VERY interested to see first what the big Beretta 92 announcement is this month and very much looking forward to shooting the Beretta more than any of the pistols I will be shooting tomorrow night to see if we mix well.

The Top of my non Glock list at the moment includes a 1911 (CRG), 92 with G conversion and some minor Wilson tuning not the full on package, or a P30 DA/SA. We will see what the turn out is. Putting my thoughts down to ePaper in this thread has helped me tremendously already. I do appreciate the input from those who have contributed.

[JonInWA]

My advice is simple: Try to dispassionately/objectively determine which platform(s) you shoot the best with, and then concentrate on them. Have the objectivity to realize that there may be some that fall into your "highly desirable" category that you don't do well with, or would take an inordinate or disproportionate amount of your resources to get to where you want to go with them. Then I'd make a decision to commit to one platform for a full year, and then re-assess as necessary.

Best, Jon

[Fire-Medic]

My advice is simple: Try to dispassionately/objectively determine which platform(s) you shoot the best with, and then concentrate on them. Have the objectivity to realize that there may be some that fall into your "highly desirable" category that you don't do well with, or would take an inordinate or disproportionate amount of your resources to get to where you want to go with them. Then I'd make a decision to commit to one platform for a full year, and then re-assess as necessary.

Best, Jon

Thanks Jon, and yes that is my plan and probably because I was thinking a year for the timeline, don't want to be "stuck" with something you know. Also the reason why I will be at the range with someone else and this guy is a straight shooter and doesn't pull punches. I low the Glocks will be on the do well with don't do it for me list if for nothing else than familiarity.

Gabe

[Alpha Sierra]

My advice is simple: Try to dispassionately/objectively determine which platform(s) you shoot the best with, and then concentrate on them.

This is what led me to CZs, both the 75 and the newer P polymer series.

I tried like hell to shoot well with striker fired pistols. I hated them both (S&W and Glock) so much in secret that I basically carried revolvers more than anything else because I could (and can) shoot K frames like they grew out of my arm.

Then I tried a CZ P-07 and it was a revelation. That led me to the classic 75, and with both I am doing the best shooting I have ever done. The ease of shooting a CZ 75 accurately AND fast is just unbelievable.

I've had other DA/SA pistols before (S&W and SIG) but nothing compares to the brilliant ergonomics of the CZ 75.

Gabe, I strongly suggest you do not overlook the P-09 during your range trip. CZs, while all the rage in USPSA, are far more than range toys. They are first and foremost fighting pistols/

[Fire-Medic]

This is what led me to CZs, both the 75 and the newer P polymer series.

I tried like hell to shoot well with striker fired pistols. I hated them both (S&W and Glock) so much in secret that I basically carried revolvers more than anything else because I could (and can) shoot K frames like they grew out of my arm.

Then I tried a CZ P-07 and it was a revelation. That led me to the classic 75, and with both I am doing the best shooting I have ever done. The ease of shooting a CZ 75 accurately AND fast is just unbelievable.

I've had other DA/SA pistols before (S&W and SIG) but nothing compares to the brilliant ergonomics of the CZ 75.

Gabe, I strongly suggest you do not overlook the P-09 during your range trip. CZs, while all the rage in USPSA, are far more than range toys. They are first and foremost fighting pistols/

My buddy doesn't stop talking about his P-09 so I'm interested because it's at the Glock price point definitely won't be overlooking it, I don't think he'd let me either way lol.

[Kyle Reese]

My buddy doesn't stop talking about his P-09 so I'm interested because it's at the Glock price point definitely won't be overlooking it, I don't think he'd let me either way lol.

I love my P-09, FWIW. If you shoot one, you'll want one. Do yourself a favor and get one from David at CGW (http://www.cajungunworks.com/guns_for_sale.html).

[Fire-Medic]

I love my P-09, FWIW. If you shoot one, you'll want one. Do yourself a favor and get one from David at CGW (http://www.cajungunworks.com/guns_for_sale.html).

If I do it will be from Dave most definitely, I already researched that over on the CZ forum :cool:

My buddies P-09 tomorrow has some CGW parts on the inside so we will see, he keeps telling me what you just did........

[CCT125US]

You mention the passion of the gun. I (read my wife) discovered the HK P30 v3 several years ago. This led me to Todd's blog and eventually pistol-forum while it was in its infancy. I grew up not knowing that DA/SA was hard, and just shot the thing. I did not care for it at first, but it worked well for me and eventually grew on me. Several years later and 60k + I still shoot it almost every day. I get crap all the time for using a 'spensive gun with a crappy trigger. I can't say I enjoy the challenge, because I see no challenge in shooting it if that makes sense. I wonder what my results would have been if I used another gun for the same time and round count. But honestly it really doesn't matter, I enjoy shooting, I enjoy being in the moment and completely in control of the now. I found the gun for me that makes me want to shoot every day. The wife has on occasion suggested I go shoot for awhile because she understands it fuels my happiness. Besides it pisses people off when you beat them using an "outdated" gun with non fiber sights, from a "slow" leather holster.
Define your need, and then find your passion, try to stick with the gun for several years, and measure your performance. If you do get tired of it, or reach a plateau try something else, the internet won't hate you.

[Kimura]

Alright, here's the other side. I absolutely hate shooting one gun or even one type of gun all the time. It is beyond boring to me. There is some benefit to shooting one type of pistol all the time, but there's also some benefit to shooting different types of pistols/firearms as well. I choose the latter not because I think I'm going to need to pick up and use someone else"s firearm in an emergency; though I suppose it's possible, but because it motivates me to shoot more. Also, you don't seem to really like Glocks, so if you're going the one gun route, I would go with something else.

[Fire-Medic]

Alright, here's the other side. I absolutely hate shooting one gun or even one type of gun all the time. It is beyond boring to me. There is some benefit to shooting one type of pistol all the time, but there's also some benefit to shooting different types of pistols/firearms as well. I choose the latter not because I think I'm going to need to pick up and use someone else"s firearm in an emergency; though I suppose it's possible, but because it motivates me to shoot more. Also, you don't seem to really like Glocks, so if you're going the one gun route, I would go with something else.

You're the first person to say this so I find it interesting, part of the reason I posted.

How detrimental to training would it be if you SD trained with lets say a G19 and simultaneously shot Comp with something else whether also striker fired or not.........?

[gtmtnbiker98]

Well, I know your tastes and I'll just leave this here, VP9. It will save you a lot of money and I know you like to spend it!

[Fire-Medic]

Well, I know your tastes and I'll just leave this here, VP9. It will save you a lot of money and I know you like to spend it!

LMAO, good to see you again my friend! :cool: We have a lot of catching up to do.

Wish I could rent one dammit, but you're probably right and not the first person to tell me this lol

And look who's talking about spending lol........

$$$ ain't what is use to be man, so need to get this right the first time :p

[Kimura]

You're the first person to say this so I find it interesting, part of the reason I posted.

How detrimental to training would it be if you SD trained with lets say a G19 and simultaneously shot Comp with something else whether also striker fired or not.........?

I'm not sure I'm qualified to answer this question for anyone besides myself. For me personally, I think I shoot better period simply because I go out and shoot more as opposed to not shooting because I'm tired of shooting X firearm. Second, I think fundamentals are fundamentals and carry across different platforms; but, what I think you do lose are the small intricacies of the way one pistol handles/shoots, though what percentage that is I don't really know. I've heard it put that one can get into the 85%-90% range of ability across multiple platforms versus 100% for one, but I can't really tell you if that's true. I think it probably depends on the person and how much they actually shoot.

To me it's whatever will get you out there to shoot. Because it isn't just about drills, it's also about enjoyment otherwise you'll quit doing it. People are busy, if shooting isn't a necessity and you're not enjoying it, what's the motivation. Even for some that it's a job related skill won't go out and practice because they don't enjoy it enough. That's just my opinion. Whatever you decide, find some joy in it.

[Father of 3]

Would you consider giving the M&P another shot (pun intended)? I am not certain what your unpleasant experience was, but I had an early model that suffered from accuracy issues as determined by multiple shooters and a rest. I too went the Glock route. However a recent exposure to a friends M&P with the Apex FSS brought me back to the days of shooting my stepdads Colt 1911 when I was a kid. For me it pointed better, mitigated recoil better, and I shot better with it than I ever have with any Glocks I have owned (17 Gen3, 17 Gen4, 19 Gen4, and 26 Gen3). I still own a G17 Gen3 but am seriously giving consideration to a M&P with Apex internals as my next gun or off loading the Glock to fund it.

Another option as suggested would be the BHP. You already have one that is a keep sake. Why not have one to compliment it that you can run the snot out of? My BHP is also from my F-I-L and will be handed down to my son so it doesn't get as much use as I would like due to wanting to preserve it. As an alternative to the M&P I have considered doing what I just suggested above to you as it really is a sweet shooter. The manual of arms is similar to a 1911 but in 9mm goodness.

Best of luck to you!

[45dotACP]

I think Todd posted something a while back about the "Defense of the TDA" and mentioned that if you can shoot a TDA gun well, the skill tends to translate. I personally like having various types of guns because they're fun to have around. I wouldn't consider my MKII Hi Power with its tiny nub sights to be a serious defensive pistol. After it takes a trip to Novak and gets a new set of sights however....it may just put the Glock in the back of the safe.

I see it this way. Most 9mm pistols out there today will be reliable (or at least reliable enough). Most reliable guns out there will be more accurate than the average shooter is capable of shooting. And here's the kicker, most of these different trigger actions (DA/SA, DAO, LEM, DAK, SAO, and SFA) are able to be mastered with practice. Practice means I get to go shoot more. All this considered, why would I settle for a gun that looks ugly to my eyes or feels uncomfortable in my hands?

Sure, I get that Glocks are great. I'd have no qualms if I were told tomorrow that the only gun I could have was a glock 19. I shoot my G34 quite well, but I had to work to get to that point. Sure, I might be flushing all that hard work down the drain if I switched to shooting a Beretta, 1911, or a P35, but I doubt that. I don't think that if you switch platforms that you automatically lose the ability to shoot or even that you lose the ability to shoot well. I prefer my 1911, but in the same range trip, I can put the 1911 down, pick up my Beretta 92, chamber/decock and hit a headshot on demand at 25 yards with the first DA shot. Sure, maybe you need to re familiarize yourself with a safety, but proper fundamentals are proper because you do them properly.

Orrr, you could look at it the other way I look at it: If today, I switched my Glock for my Beretta, it would have no effect on how well I shoot the J-frame that will most likely be on me :cool:

[Fire-Medic]

Headed to the Range! :cool:

[JonInWA]

This is what led me to CZs, both the 75 and the newer P polymer series.

I tried like hell to shoot well with striker fired pistols. I hated them both (S&W and Glock) so much in secret that I basically carried revolvers more than anything else because I could (and can) shoot K frames like they grew out of my arm.

Then I tried a CZ P-07 and it was a revelation. That led me to the classic 75, and with both I am doing the best shooting I have ever done. The ease of shooting a CZ 75 accurately AND fast is just unbelievable.

I've had other DA/SA pistols before (S&W and SIG) but nothing compares to the brilliant ergonomics of the CZ 75.

Gabe, I strongly suggest you do not overlook the P-09 during your range trip. CZs, while all the rage in USPSA, are far more than range toys. They are first and foremost fighting pistols/

I have two very experienced shooting friends that I have the utmost respect for that recently switched from Smith & Wesson M&P Pros to CZ P-09s, and immediately performed pretty spectacularly with them. Interestingly, their M&P issues weren't accuracy issues, but other M&P reoccurring component quality control issues.

If I was switching platforms from Glock, the Cee Zed polymers would be pretty high on my short list of possible contenders.

Best, Jon

[JustOneGun]

My advice is simple: Try to dispassionately/objectively determine which platform(s) you shoot the best with, and then concentrate on them. Have the objectivity to realize that there may be some that fall into your "highly desirable" category that you don't do well with, or would take an inordinate or disproportionate amount of your resources to get to where you want to go with them. Then I'd make a decision to commit to one platform for a full year, and then re-assess as necessary.

Best, Jon

Yes, I think this is great advice. When I first shot the glock if felt terrible in my hand. It fit just fine just didn't give me the warm and fuzzy of the Sig. After just who range sessions I saw a marked improvement in my shooting. I never looked back. It's what works for you, not what feels good.

Whether Self Defense or Competition jumping from platform to platform just delays things. Stick to one and get all the easy gains from training that you can. Then if you switch try to make it an informed one and stick to that one for a year. And if you ever switch again, well you are a tinkerer. There's no hope for you...:cool:

[BoppaBear]

Hey F-M, good to see you here. You've definitely experienced a wide range of sidearms. For the record, I'd consider gtmtnbiker's suggestion. The VP is an excellent pistol, so far in my time with one. Albeit I got to HK via a long affair with Sig, and have always preferred DA/SA with a decocker and no safety...back in April I took the V1 plunge, and am very happy with them as carry guns.

VPs are hard to beat for striker-fired, though.

IMHO, any instructor that calls you out for your weapon, isn't necessarily in the right job........as long as you shoot said weapon well.

[Alpha Sierra]

I have two very experienced shooting friends that I have the utmost respect for that recently switched from Smith & Wesson M&P Pros to CZ P-09s, and immediately performed pretty spectacularly with them. Interestingly, their M&P issues weren't accuracy issues, but other M&P reoccurring component quality control issues.

If I was switching platforms from Glock, the Cee Zed polymers would be pretty high on my short list of possible contenders.

Best, Jon
To be honest, the steel and aluminum framed CZs seem to get lost in the shuffle but IME are even better shooters than the new plastic ones.

If you grab a 75, P-01, or SP-01 and it feels huge in the grip, do not discount it. The factory plastic or rubber grips panels are too thick for most people. A set of G10 or aluminum grips transforms the ergos into something that has to be experienced to be believed. And I'm not just talking about "feel", I'm talking about results on paper at speed and at distance.

[JonInWA]

And I notice that CZ has provided their product-improved Omega trigger to one of the versions of the venerable CZ-75, for those inclined towards the metal CZ route...

Best, Jon

[Fire-Medic]

Ok so back form the range. I will start this off by saying, I'm no pro, and I haven't touched a pistol (or any firearm for that matter) for the better part of a year. So take it easy on the new guy lol. We were at a public indoor range, but my buddy knows the owners so we don't have the range Nazi's bugging us about stuff. That being said, while I did have the ability to draw from a holster today, someone else brought me the weapons to shoot, and he had his holster on for the Beretta 92 he was shooting and did not have his holsters for the rest. So I was not shooting from retention, nor was I on a clock, because with all the shots going off simultaneously there was just no way. I tried to keep a pace of about one shot per second as a cadence except for the 25 yard line. More on that after. Ammunition used was hand loaded 147gr Precision Delta JHP projectiles with once fired brass, CCI primers, and IMR 7625. Don't real the charge right now off hand.

All shooting was done freestyle, nothing off a rest or WHO or SHO today. We all ran late getting there and there just was not the time before closing. So I shot for groups with everything to get a feel for the pistols.

I started with the Glocks because they're what I know best and I had not shot in a VERY long time. So here goes.........

Picture #1: (All strings of fire were 10 rounds)

http://i325.photobucket.com/albums/k366/ffgabe/Toys/IMG_6623_zps866ac65d.jpg

Picture #2: (Same target as #1 but close up of where I was aiming)

http://i325.photobucket.com/albums/k366/ffgabe/Toys/IMG_6624_zps10595f09.jpg

Ok so the orange dot center of the chest was my first magazine with the G17. I shot 10 rounds at a pace of about 1 round per second at 5 yards. Cut me some slack it's been a while. I felt as if an old friend and I were re acquainted right from the start. Truth be told, I was having FUN!

Next string of fire was the orange dot center of the head with the G34, not bad but G34 at 5 yards it better look like that and it should be tighter lol.

I then moved the target to the 7 yard line. The next string of fire at 7 yards was the top right corner "#1" with the G34, not sure what happened there, maybe a mental breakdown, but that sucked LOL. I will note some history here with me. I cannot for the life of me tell you why, but I have always shot the G17/G22 better than the G34/G35, and you will see this in a bit with the pics from the 25 yard line. The "Tactical" models to mer just don't feel balanced and they feel front heavy, not sure why but I'm not one of the guys that does better with them. And quite frankly with the G17/G22 size costing less, why bother if I don't shoot it better.

Next I grabbed the G17 again because I was horrified by that 7 yard group with the G34 and needed to redeem myself. I shot at the "#2" target, then took a break and reloaded and hit the yellow circle once with the G17, then the orange circle with the G17 (I marked G34 but that was in error), and then I hit the yellow circle a second time at a faster pace than before. So I was getting the hang of the G17 again and reunited with an old friend.

Picture #3: (Beretta 92/CZ P-09/G17) (7 yards)

http://i325.photobucket.com/albums/k366/ffgabe/Toys/IMG_6625_zps6e1fe1e2.jpg

Picture #4: (Close up of #3)

http://i325.photobucket.com/albums/k366/ffgabe/Toys/IMG_6626_zpsf34f3ac6.jpg

Now it was time for the new guys. I put up a fresh target and grabbed the Beretta 92. For the record my buddy is having hell of a time getting his sights right, it shoots low for him, and does for me as well as you can see. So you can see the disaster with the 92 at the "#1" top right, the CZ P-09 on the left at the "#2" and the orange circle, and the yellow circle with the G17 at a faster pace than the other two for comparison. Orange dot in the head here was the G17 too.
The yanked shot on the #2 with the CZ was NOT in DA I short stroked in SA. I did NOT like the way the CZ felt in my hand and did not care for the the way the trigger itself felt and it's movement. The "pull" of the trigger was nice, but I just did not like the mechanics of it. The Beretta was as I remember a D spring Beretta being, long as all get out on the DA but manageable, and nice on the SA. But my sample today is having sight issues, he's shooting 3" low at 25 with it.....

On this target, I took it back to the 25 yard line afterwards, and fired 5 rounds taking my time with the G34, very much not to my liking: Picture #5 (G34/25 yds)

http://i325.photobucket.com/albums/k366/ffgabe/Toys/IMG_6627_zps2c348e70.jpg

At least I did something right with it on the first shot lol......

Now I put up a new target again, took it back out to 25 yards, and shot 5 rounds at a faster pace with the G17 than I did with the G34, and the one shot I yanked low I knew it when it happened because I yanked the trigger. If it wasn't for that low yanked shot, would have been a nice little group "for me", I'm still happy with it though considering how long it's been: Picture #6 (G17/25 yards)

http://i325.photobucket.com/albums/k366/ffgabe/Toys/IMG_6629_zpsf1c4d302.jpg

For frame of reference, here's the G17/25 yard group next to one of my grubby mitts: Picture #7

http://i325.photobucket.com/albums/k366/ffgabe/Toys/IMG_6630_zps7946139f.jpg

Pistols used:
- G17 Gen 4; Glock 3.5 (-) connector, polished internals, Warren black rear sight and Red F/O front
- G34 Gen 4; configured same as G17
- Beretta 92; D spring, Dawson F/O front, Wilson battle sight rear, stippled gips
- CZ-P09; CGW trigger parts, factory hammer, Dawson black rear F/O front setup

So I think the targets speak for themselves and there's something to be said to my time shooting Glocks, whether I am passionate about them or not, I shoot them better than other firearms. I spent some time last night and this morning reviewing Surf's threads in the reference section as well as some of Todd's. Surf's thread on holding the gun was priceless and I saw the effects of it today. The best way I can explain how my shooting fly today is, I can be more accurate with the Glock vs the others, without having to focus as much to do so. I can click with less clear of a sight picture and make hits. Today I was having FUN, and I smiled all the way because I hadn't shot in so long.

So at this point, I'm thinking it's time for a G17, but the only thing still in the back of my mind is the VP9..... None of my local ranges have one for rent, and for the life of me, I don't know anyone who owns one for me to shoot. Holding in a gun store might give me a "feel" but we all know feel doesn't say jack about the way you can shoot a pistol. I just shot a 2x4 grip better than everything else today.

I do remember when I owned my P30, me and the paddle mag release did get along VERY well, dropping mags with my trigger finger and not breaking my grip. I would "assume" if I could shoot the VP9 as well as the Glock (or better), and I'm faster at mag releases with the HK style mag release, and the HK has more "mechanical" accuracy then that should all translate into a pistol I shoot better ....... Right?

So where does this leave me.....?

I tried to be as transparent, detailed, and complete with my report of the range trip today. My apologies, but I don't write for a living and I'm not a photographer, lol.

So let's have at it, feedback welcomed!

Thanks
Gabe

[Fire-Medic]

Hey F-M, good to see you here. You've definitely experienced a wide range of sidearms. For the record, I'd consider gtmtnbiker's suggestion. The VP is an excellent pistol, so far in my time with one. Albeit I got to HK via a long affair with Sig, and have always preferred DA/SA with a decocker and no safety...back in April I took the V1 plunge, and am very happy with them as carry guns.

VPs are hard to beat for striker-fired, though.

IMHO, any instructor that calls you out for your weapon, isn't necessarily in the right job........as long as you shoot said weapon well.

My final decision will be between the VP9 and the G17...... and it's not going to be an easy one because I can't get my hands on a VP9 to shoot.

As for the instructor tidbit, I agree, it was my first class EVER after my BS CCW permit class, and I was at a range with an instructor whom someone I respect dearly sent me recommended as a good guy and I didn't want to make a scene. If that happened again now I'd have a thing or two to say, in a polite way of course, albeit sarcastically.

Thanks for the welcome. :D

[Fire-Medic]

Would you consider giving the M&P another shot (pun intended)? I am not certain what your unpleasant experience was, but I had an early model that suffered from accuracy issues as determined by multiple shooters and a rest. I too went the Glock route. However a recent exposure to a friends M&P with the Apex FSS brought me back to the days of shooting my stepdads Colt 1911 when I was a kid. For me it pointed better, mitigated recoil better, and I shot better with it than I ever have with any Glocks I have owned (17 Gen3, 17 Gen4, 19 Gen4, and 26 Gen3). I still own a G17 Gen3 but am seriously giving consideration to a M&P with Apex internals as my next gun or off loading the Glock to fund it.

Another option as suggested would be the BHP. You already have one that is a keep sake. Why not have one to compliment it that you can run the snot out of? My BHP is also from my F-I-L and will be handed down to my son so it doesn't get as much use as I would like due to wanting to preserve it. As an alternative to the M&P I have considered doing what I just suggested above to you as it really is a sweet shooter. The manual of arms is similar to a 1911 but in 9mm goodness.

Best of luck to you!


I appreciate the contribution to the thread. In a word on the M&P, no. I have no desire to go back that route, after the issues I had and what I dealt with with CS which I really don't care to re-hash. I will say that a mid size 45 TS model with APEX FSS is as close to a 1911 as you can et in anything polymer in my opinion. But now you're not talking about a $400 gun either. And for this go around I'm sticking to 9mm.

As for the BHP way too much hammer bite. To get a beavertail on one you're talking big money and it will get done one day but that pistol is not going to be run as my primary.

Just my angle on it all.

[FotoTomas]

Well... seems to me you had your epiphany and I can understand it. I love my Berettas, I am Issued and carry off duty a SIG 229, I Think Smith and Wesson "K" frame revolvers are just the best thing since sliced bread. Bottom line...A Glock 9mm is the one gun I shoot better than the others and would keep for personal defense if limited to one gun.

I have not yet and would like to try the new H&K striker VP9. I imagine it might be a great option for me like the S&W M&P autos were but I have so much time and treasure rolled into my Revolvers, Berettas, SIG and Glocks that I can easily see me never getting one as I get closer to retirement and start to simplify my life. In time I expect my personal battery of handguns might well be whittled down to a Glock 26, S&W Model 19 Combat Magnum and my S&W 638 pocket piece.

[Fire-Medic]

Well... seems to me you had your epiphany and I can understand it. I love my Berettas, I am Issued and carry off duty a SIG 229, I Think Smith and Wesson "K" frame revolvers are just the best thing since sliced bread. Bottom line...A Glock 9mm is the one gun I shoot better than the others and would keep for personal defense if limited to one gun.

I have not yet and would like to try the new H&K striker VP9. I imagine it might be a great option for me like the S&W M&P autos were but I have so much time and treasure rolled into my Revolvers, Berettas, SIG and Glocks that I can easily see me never getting one as I get closer to retirement and start to simplify my life. In time I expect my personal battery of handguns might well be whittled down to a Glock 26, S&W Model 19 Combat Magnum and my S&W 638 pocket piece.

My first ever course of "training" was to get some basics and qualify me to apply for my permit (cow), the instructor was local LEO and brought one sample of almost everything you can think of in all the 4 standard service calibers (9/40/45/38), on the clock doing drills, the two guns I shot best were his G19, and his K frame Smith full size 38 revolver. And a K frame with some proper reloads is about as good as it gets for pure range fun. No recoil, very accurate, and you don't have to even chase your brass. ;)

I appreciate the feedback you have given in this thread sir. Enjoy your weekend.

[45dotACP]

It's good that you know what you want now. One of the things about shooting is...it's fun! Getting burned out is certainly a possibility, but even if you have an "ugly" gun like a glock and you shoot it better than you shoot the "pretty" guns, you can still end up having a better time because shooting better is a beautiful thing in and of itself. Now that you've got a handle on what you shoot best you can focus on what's important. Getting better.

One thing I always recommend for people who want to shoot better is this:

Don't skimp on training. Clearly, the local trainers in your area have some attitude problems and possibly some issues with competence. I'd seek training with somebody who has a well established reputation and take lots of notes in class. Just off the top of my head, I would recommend looking at the Class Announcements section of this forum. The classes listed will give you your money's worth. After that, the majority of the money you'll want to spend will be ammo, ammo, and more ammo so you can apply the things you've learned.

New sights, trigger work etc...those are all nice, but in my experience, the only real work the average Glock needs is a set of decent sights. Some other things are nice to have, but good shooters can do without. The grip plug comes to mind here. But the trigger mods can cause more problems than they solve. It's so easy to get caught up in the mindset that "my gun needs more stuff to make me a better shooter" that before you know it, you spend 300 bucks on a bunch of bolt on junk for a plastic pistol. 300 bucks is a lot of extra magazines and ammo... ;)

Good luck! And if you get your mitts on a VP9, I'd love to hear how it compares to the Glock!

[Fire-Medic]

It's good that you know what you want now. One of the things about shooting is...it's fun! Getting burned out is certainly a possibility, but even if you have an "ugly" gun like a glock and you shoot it better than you shoot the "pretty" guns, you can still end up having a better time because shooting better is a beautiful thing in and of itself. Now that you've got a handle on what you shoot best you can focus on what's important. Getting better.

One thing I always recommend for people who want to shoot better is this:

Don't skimp on training. Clearly, the local trainers in your area have some attitude problems and possibly some issues with competence. I'd seek training with somebody who has a well established reputation and take lots of notes in class. Just off the top of my head, I would recommend looking at the Class Announcements section of this forum. The classes listed will give you your money's worth. After that, the majority of the money you'll want to spend will be ammo, ammo, and more ammo so you can apply the things you've learned.

New sights, trigger work etc...those are all nice, but in my experience, the only real work the average Glock needs is a set of decent sights. Some other things are nice to have, but good shooters can do without. The grip plug comes to mind here. But the trigger mods can cause more problems than they solve. It's so easy to get caught up in the mindset that "my gun needs more stuff to make me a better shooter" that before you know it, you spend 300 bucks on a bunch of bolt on junk for a plastic pistol. 300 bucks is a lot of extra magazines and ammo... ;)

Good luck! And if you get your mitts on a VP9, I'd love to hear how it compares to the Glock!

Thanks for the encouragement. I went to the local LE fun store that I have been a customer at since I started shooting. I did get to hold a VP9, but not shoot one. It felt good, but I still decided on a Gen 4 G17 and that's what I came home with. It was "Glock Day" too coincidentally. I got my Gen 4 with (3) mags, two extra mags, a free Glock Range bag (single pistol), the 2014 Annual Glock mag, a Glock keychain, 50 rounds of Hornady 135gr LE ammo, and an entry into a drawing tomorrow for a free Glock in a raffle for $502 out the door. I can live with that.

Good buddy of mine calls me today and says he had me in mind because of all the pistol related favors I have done for him in the past, and he's sending me a threaded barrel for the G17 for free (I can play with the osprey 9mm again now), and a Milt Sparks VM2 I sold to him previously in exchange for some primers he needs to load 308 which I won't use.

So it's been a good day and now I can focus on mag pouches and holster for the gun games, and more supplies to load 9mm and some new sights. I'm not gonna go full on retard adding stuff. I do like the grip work, but not going down that road now, maybe when I can buy a spare G17 I will to that one. I'm leaving this as is with minor stuff to shoot Production in USPSA, never shot it before and have someone local walking me into the sport. IDPA got old form the few times I went out because they're just certain rules I don't understand or agree with and they don't translate to regular training but that's another conversation. I will still go shoot IDPA every now and then because logistically it's closer for me, and I made a lot of good friends at the local club, but my focus will be having fun with USPSA and getting better with the drills listed here in the reference section.

I appreciate everyone's feedback who contributed, and hopefully my madness helped someone else out who has been lurking too.

As was stated early on in the thread, I will make getting better the fun part and stop stressing the tool part of the equation.

While I will like to revisit the VP9 later on, financially right now for me the Glock just works better, and I am definitely not a good enough of a shooter where a VP9 over a G17 will make that drastic of a difference (I don't think so anyways).

Happy shooting folks and enjoy your weekend.

Gabe

[Fire-Medic]

My advice is simple: Try to dispassionately/objectively determine which platform(s) you shoot the best with, and then concentrate on them. Have the objectivity to realize that there may be some that fall into your "highly desirable" category that you don't do well with, or would take an inordinate or disproportionate amount of your resources to get to where you want to go with them. Then I'd make a decision to commit to one platform for a full year, and then re-assess as necessary.

Best, Jon

Done and the G17 wins. TY for your input.

[rob_s]

I don't get the weird attachment, or disdain, some people feel towards one gun or another without some sort of reason. To me, the end use was always the motivation. When I thought I needed to be training for that inevitable home-invasion, street robbery, mall shooting, terrorist attack, or whatever the SHTFantasy of the day is, that was enough for me. The fear and the thought of not "being prepared". Eventually I got over that nonsense, and as such shooting in general wasn't holding my interest in any way. Getting back into competition shooting, with the understanding that competition is ALL that it is (in every way, to include "training scars" paranoia). At the same time, my priorities changed. I'm shooting for FUN. I'm not going to practice, or train, outside of a match. Don't care. I want to have maximum fun while at a match, with minimum investment, and (a personal thing here) least amount of consequences after the fact.

So I bought a CZ Shadow ninja target master wonder gun (shows how much I care, without the gun in my hand I can't even tell you the model) because I can use it in IDPA, USPSA, SFDCC, and the steel matches (which I'm missing today, too much fun yesterday) all in the same holster, holster position, and condition (hammer down) and there is a class for me to shoot in where I can still feel competitive enough so that it's not no fun at all (of example, if I did so much fiddling to a gun because:carry-ninja that it put me I to Open, I wouldn't be having as much fun because I'd have no chance in hell. Although there is a certain sense of satisfaction in beating an open guy with a production gun).

I think you are over thinking this, by trying to under-think it. You need to enjoy the act of shooting. And it really doesn't matter if that's with your carry gun or not. If your choices are between not shooting at all or shooting a gun at matches that's different than your carry gun, shoot the different gun. That's what I'm doing.

That said, if I didn't have an injury issue to my right arm that makes me very recoil sensitive, I'd be shooting a Glock 34, stock except for sights, and having a blast. And all the because:carry-ninja guys would agree with me because at least it's similar to my Glock 19 carry gun. (Even though I carry a 642 more than any other gun. Don't tell them my secret!)

"Mission drives the gear train" applies to recreational shooting too. If you're imparting personality, emotion, or sentimentality to the equipment, you're dong it wrong.

[Fire-Medic]

I don't get the weird attachment, or disdain, some people feel towards one gun or another without some sort of reason. To me, the end use was always the motivation. When I thought I needed to be training for that inevitable home-invasion, street robbery, mall shooting, terrorist attack, or whatever the SHTFantasy of the day is, that was enough for me. The fear and the thought of not "being prepared". Eventually I got over that nonsense, and as such shooting in general wasn't holding my interest in any way. Getting back into competition shooting, with the understanding that competition is ALL that it is (in every way, to include "training scars" paranoia). At the same time, my priorities changed. I'm shooting for FUN. I'm not going to practice, or train, outside of a match. Don't care. I want to have maximum fun while at a match, with minimum investment, and (a personal thing here) least amount of consequences after the fact.

So I bought a CZ Shadow ninja target master wonder gun (shows how much I care, without the gun in my hand I can't even tell you the model) because I can use it in IDPA, USPSA, SFDCC, and the steel matches (which I'm missing today, too much fun yesterday) all in the same holster, holster position, and condition (hammer down) and there is a class for me to shoot in where I can still feel competitive enough so that it's not no fun at all (of example, if I did so much fiddling to a gun because:carry-ninja that it put me I to Open, I wouldn't be having as much fun because I'd have no chance in hell. Although there is a certain sense of satisfaction in beating an open guy with a production gun).

I think you are over thinking this, by trying to under-think it. You need to enjoy the act of shooting. And it really doesn't matter if that's with your carry gun or not. If your choices are between not shooting at all or shooting a gun at matches that's different than your carry gun, shoot the different gun. That's what I'm doing.

That said, if I didn't have an injury issue to my right arm that makes me very recoil sensitive, I'd be shooting a Glock 34, stock except for sights, and having a blast. And all the because:carry-ninja guys would agree with me because at least it's similar to my Glock 19 carry gun. (Even though I carry a 642 more than any other gun. Don't tell them my secret!)

"Mission drives the gear train" applies to recreational shooting too. If you're imparting personality, emotion, or sentimentality to the equipment, you're dong it wrong.

Thanks for your input Rob, good to see you around and hope you're doing well.

I too am coming back from an injury if you will (illness), and I think what I went through and the time away actually did me good as I have a completely different mindset than I did before. I guess when I started this thread I was picking up where I left off before with a lot of the BS that I was attached to. When I want to the rage this time to shoot the different pistols it became apparent to me what gun to shoot because the targets don't lie. I was actually having fun because I was shooting again and as you say performance will be driving the mission this time, but it feels liberating in a way to get the gear stuff out of the way and just be able t focus on things I can to do practice and get better. Instead of obsessing over what to do with the pistol. I can also say with all honesty that the information on this website is fantastic and very much unlike what I have found anywhere else, and the environment is great for someone like myself that wants to learn and get better. I have read some threads on here which I got more out of than some of the basic classes I have taken. I think that speaks volumes. Now I have no dilution of becoming the next Vogel but I would like to improve my skill from where it is currently at.