357 mag ammo help

[mosin46]

well,yes,i tried the search and got nowhere. never could make it work on any site. wanting info,testing data,experiences,antedotal evidence on the effectiveness of 357 and it's various ammo choices. thanks.

[Rich]

well,yes,i tried the search and got nowhere. never could make it work on any site. wanting info,testing data,experiences,antedotal evidence on the effectiveness of 357 and it's various ammo choices. thanks.

Been thinking of going back to a 357magnum.
I used to love carrying AIWB. Plus to this day I shoot 38spl/357mag revolvers more accurately than any of my service pistol.

I also prefer 38spl and 38spl+p loads for SD over the 357magnum loads.



Winchester LEO website at one time had gel specs for 357mag 125gr and 145ST and maybe a 158JHP.

They might still have it listed? but no gel pictures!

[DiscipulusArmorum]

Here's one recent thread with some discussion: http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?13003-357-mag-ballistic-test-Remington-180-gr-SJHP-fired-from-revolver-and-carbine

You can use google to search through most forums more effectively than using the site's search feature. Go to the google search box and type in, for example, "site:pistol-forum.com .357 magnum" (without quotation marks when you type it in yourself). You can substitute in whatever site and search term you want!

[LOBO]

http://firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/357magnum.htm

scroll down to part III. for the bare & clothed gel tests

[mosin46]

thanks. not a tech guy at all. as far as the guns,i am thinking about returning to the revolver. i do shoot them much better than dao autos. been shooting them a good while.

[jetfire]

Defensive ammo has come a long way since the tested loads were the top of the line for 357 ammo.

[mosin46]

thanks. 90s ammo still effective i suspect. what is top of the pile at this time?

[LOBO]

I still like the 145 gr Silvertip, but it can be very hard to find at times (seasonal runs I believe). Corbon 125 gr DPX has become my standard carry load for my .357 magnums. Here are some videos that are pretty good.

.357 mag 4", Remington 125 gr JHP gel test with 4LD

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8WNQxIjutc


.357 mag 2 1/2", Remington 125 gr JHP gel test with 4LD

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiKGAvXtpVQ&list=UUQN1DJNlSz3AlvY74jwflIg


.357 mag 4", Hornady 125 gr Critical defense gel test with 4LD

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1gXC9Hyw5w&list=UUQN1DJNlSz3AlvY74jwflIg


.357 mag 4", Remington 125 gr Golden Saber BJHP gel test with 4LD

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLqqDaGHDWw&list=UUQN1DJNlSz3AlvY74jwflIg

[Chuck Haggard]

The .357mag is one of those rounds, like the .40, that you have to work to pick a poor loading. Stay in the middle to heavy bullet weights in a quality JHP and you are likely good.

The Silvertip is a really decent loading in testing, as are almost all of the 140-158gr JHPs from major US makers.

Barrel length makes a huge difference BTW. When one asks "What load for a .357mag?" the question should specify what barrel length.

[Chuck Haggard]

Some old school stuff from Winchester;


Tests are listed in order of; "Bare Gelatin", "Heavy
Cloth", Wallboard, Plywood, Steel, Autoglass



X357SHP 357 Mag 145 STHP 1290fps
Penetration 15.3 16.4 18.7 18.2 16.9 15.9
Expansion 0.55 0.58 0.57 0.45 0.56
Ret Wt. % 87 73 98 97 95 81
Ret Wt. Gr. 126 106 142 140 138 117

X3574P 357 Mag 158 JHP 1048fps
4" Barrel Penetration 17 17.7 17.5 18.2 13.9 11.4
686 S&W Expansion 0.53 0.48 0.45 0.44 0.53 0.681
Ret Wt. % 99 99 100 98 96 83
Ret Wt. Gr. 157 156 158 155 152 131.2

X3576P 357 Mag 125 JHP 1450fps
Penetration 10.7 12.3
Expansion 0.53 0.54
Ret Wt. % 74 79
Ret Wt. Gr. 93 99

[Alpha Sierra]

Defensive ammo has come a long way since the tested loads were the top of the line for 357 ammo.

Yet the human body remains the same. The same old loads that gave the caliber its fearsome (and well earned) reputation are still just as effective.

When used for defense, I load only three in mine: Remington 125 SJHP, Federal 125 SJHP, Speer 125 GD.

[eb07]

For a snub? Or 4" and above barrel. There is a difference.

[jetfire]

Yet the human body remains the same. The same old loads that gave the caliber its fearsome (and well earned) reputation are still just as effective.

When used for defense, I load only three in mine: Remington 125 SJHP, Federal 125 SJHP, Speer 125 GD.

Okay.

[Rich]

thanks. not a tech guy at all. as far as the guns,i am thinking about returning to the revolver. i do shoot them much better than dao autos. been shooting them a good while.

For some reason I shoot revolvers more accurately .

For SD I like the heavy S&W M686-3inch and Rugers GP100-3inch the best of all because they have a heavy frame that soaks up the recoil when shooting 38spl+P

I just wish we had MORE 38spl+P loads to choose from.

[Rich]

Some old school stuff from Winchester;


Tests are listed in order of; "Bare Gelatin", "Heavy
Cloth", Wallboard, Plywood, Steel, Autoglass



X357SHP 357 Mag 145 STHP 1290fps
Penetration 15.3 16.4 18.7 18.2 16.9 15.9
Expansion 0.55 0.58 0.57 0.45 0.56
Ret Wt. % 87 73 98 97 95 81
Ret Wt. Gr. 126 106 142 140 138 117

X3574P 357 Mag 158 JHP 1048fps
4" Barrel Penetration 17 17.7 17.5 18.2 13.9 11.4
686 S&W Expansion 0.53 0.48 0.45 0.44 0.53 0.681
Ret Wt. % 99 99 100 98 96 83
Ret Wt. Gr. 157 156 158 155 152 131.2

X3576P 357 Mag 125 JHP 1450fps
Penetration 10.7 12.3
Expansion 0.53 0.54
Ret Wt. % 74 79
Ret Wt. Gr. 93 99

Thank You Chuck for posting it.

[Rich]

Yet the human body remains the same. The same old loads that gave the caliber its fearsome (and well earned) reputation are still just as effective.

When used for defense, I load only three in mine: Remington 125 SJHP, Federal 125 SJHP, Speer 125 GD.

Fearsome rep when compared to 38spl LE loads of that time period.

[Chuck Haggard]

Fearsome rep when compared to 38spl LE loads of that time period.


I have seen some impressive wounding on unobstructed bad guys from the 125gr Remington mag loading. It does leave a lot to be desired when trying to get through barriers like auto glass though.

[Alpha Sierra]

Fearsome rep when compared to 38spl LE loads of that time period.

Compared to anything from then or now

[jetfire]

Compared to anything from then or now

Fearsome reputations passed down orally without documentation != superior terminal ballistics to modern loads.

[Alpha Sierra]

Fearsome reputations passed down orally without documentation != superior terminal ballistics to modern loads.
First of all, there are plenty of well done gel tests on youtube with the same old school ammo that we are discussing. You can spend some time wathcing them and comparing them to gel tests of modern ammo in whichever caliber you like.

Second, I'm sure there is plenty of documentation in police files all over the country. Just because you or I don't have hard evidence does not mean it does not exist.

[jetfire]

First of all, there are plenty of well done gel tests on youtube with the same old school ammo that we are discussing. You can spend some time wathcing them and comparing them to gel tests of modern ammo in whichever caliber you like.

Second, I'm sure there is plenty of documentation in police files all over the country. Just because you or I don't have hard evidence does not mean it does not exist.

That would be actual evidence. I'm fine with actual evidence. "Fearsome reputations" are the reason why idiots on the internet are still saying dumb shit like "they all fall to hardball" and "WW2 pointshooting is the best!"

[Chuck Haggard]

Fearsome reputation generation event;

Off duty officer (ODO), armed with a 4" model 66 loaded with issued 125gr Remington JHP (issued because; fearsome) is driving home via POV but in uniform. Sees dude beating a chick up off to the side of the road. He does a you turn to go back and see if it is serious or if they are screwing around, with plan to drive down to the corner pay phone at the Kwik Shop to call it in if it looks serious.

As he pulls up he sees dude really is beating the crap out of chick. At that point a third party guy, not associated with either party except they are all there at the same time, comes off his porch and yells at off-duty to "get the fuck out of here" and starts lighting his car up, ironically with a 4" .357 revolver.

ODO takes a chuck of frag through the driver's door through his left forearm. He gets his gun drawn while trying to lay down in the bench seat and tangled in his seatbelt. ODO gets gun deploy and returns fire, empties gen, then has to OJT loading a wheelgun with a speedloader while trying to lay prone on a car seat and bleeding.

Bad guy hit with one round in the center of his shin. Bad guy collapses in his tracks after the hit, and is screaming and incoherent after he wakes up when the ambulance crew starts working on him. Exit hole in calf is the size of a tennis ball. At the ER his leg looks like a snow storm on the Xray, they save the leg after several surgeries, but he loses 4" of bone from the tib and fib and has one of those shoes with a block on it the rest of his life.


But then, sometimes you don't get these results, sometimes you get something like what happened to Trooper Mark Coates.

[jetfire]

Thanks for that, Chuck.

I'm really not trying to bad on the .357 here either, I carry one - I just don't buy that it's somehow more effective than other modern pistol rounds at putting bad guys in the dirt. I think a lot of the "fearsome reputation" has more to do with people not understanding wound ballistics from pistols. I've read a lot of the "one shot stop" reports from .357 and I wonder if the same badguy in the same circumstances had been hit with a 9mm or a .40 in the same place if it'd had the same result.

Of course, the answer is always "we don't know" but it's an interesting thought exercise.

[DocGKR]

Most internet gel tests are NOT well done; among many issues, most fail to do the minimum number of 5 shots per test event--10 shots is even better.

During the early to mid 1980’s, like many people, I was duped by articles singing the praises of the .357 Mag 125 gr JHP. I carried a 4” 686 and a customized 3” M13 loaded with Fed 125 gr JHP. However, after going on active military duty and being in a position to test ammunition at the Letterman Army Institute of Research with Dr. Fackler, it became obvious that the .357 Magnum 125 gr JHP’s tended to have relatively shallow penetration, frequently fragmented with resultant decrease in permanent crush cavity, and had temporary cavities of insufficient size to contribute significantly to wounding. In addition, these loads had a large muzzle flash and blast, as well as a relatively harsh recoil which inhibited accuracy and re-engagement speed. As the FBI established a science based ammunition testing program, their research data also showed less than stellar performance from the lightweight .357 Mag loadings, including the 125 gr JHP’s. .357 Mag can certainly offer adequate terminal ballistics, however, there is a reason very few agencies issue .357 mag revolvers for self-defense/force protection purposes anymore. I personally would prefer a good service pistol in 9mm/.40 S&W/.45 Auto over a .357 mag revolver for SD/duty use. We don’t do much .357 Mag testing anymore, as it simply is not used by the folks we test for, however, in past years, like the other facilities noted above, in our testing the lightweight 125 gr and under .357 Mag loadings often had insufficient penetration, while the 158 gr and heavier loadings frequently penetrated deeper than ideal for use on biped opponents. To be honest, I no longer have much use for .357 Mag, always choosing a 4-5" .44 Mag revolver (wouldn't mind a .41 Mag or hot .45 Colt) for any back country purposes and preferring the "controlability" and reduced blast/flash of .38 Sp +P loadings for urban self-defense use in 2-3" barrel revolvers. The best modern .357 Mag loadings we have tested have been the Winchester 180 gr Partition Gold and loads using the Barnes XPB all copper bullets when shot from barrels of 4" and longer; the old Win 145 gr Silvertip works OK as well, as do a couple of the newer bonded loads.

For those individuals who doubt evidence based research and prefer “street results”, the CHP, the largest agency to issue .357 Mag 125 gr JHP’s on the West Coast, clearly reported significantly better results in their officer involved shootings after switching to .40 S&W 180 gr JHP loadings, based on officer perception, objective crime scene measurements, as well as the physiological damage described in the relevant autopsy studies. The CHP used a variety of .357 Mag loads, depending upon what was available via the state contract. According to the published CHP test data from 1989-90, the .357 Magnum load used immediately prior to the CHP transition to .40 S&W was the Remington 125 gr JHP with an ave. MV of 1450 f/s from their 4" duty revolvers. I first saw the data when it was presented during a wound ballistic conference I attended at the CHP Academy in the early 1990's; I heard it discussed again at a CHP Officer Involved Shootings Investigation Team meeting in November of 1997 at Vallejo, CA. The information reviewed the differences in ammunition terminal performance such as penetration depth, recovered bullet characteristics, tissue damage, as well as other physiological measurements and physical evidence detailed during forensic analysis.

[Chuck Haggard]

Thanks for that, Chuck.

I'm really not trying to bad on the .357 here either, I carry one - I just don't buy that it's somehow more effective than other modern pistol rounds at putting bad guys in the dirt. I think a lot of the "fearsome reputation" has more to do with people not understanding wound ballistics from pistols. I've read a lot of the "one shot stop" reports from .357 and I wonder if the same badguy in the same circumstances had been hit with a 9mm or a .40 in the same place if it'd had the same result.

Of course, the answer is always "we don't know" but it's an interesting thought exercise.


My personal guess on such things is that certain attributes can make a bullet more effective. I think we can agree that something like a 300gr hardcast WC launched from a full power .454 round would be effective regardless of angle of impact, bone, clothing, windshield glass, etc. Full penetration every time, any angle, likely zero deviation from the original path.

None of us can realistically carry such a bullet launcher, or deal with the recoil from training.

One of the attributes of the .357 mag, velocity, is what makes it work rather well regardless of "what bullet", typically, and if we are talking 125gr bullets and up.

Is a 158gr .357 more gooder than a 155gr .40 at similar velocities? Likely not.

Perception is a very human part of this. Loud equals better, or at least more impressive to many people.


DB and I talked about this as far as psychological stops, many of his guys carried Ruger SP101s loaded with full power ammo back in the day, and both of us care not why the bad guys stops, if it works.

Flash-bangs are pretty much purely psychological in effect, does that mean SWAT teams should stop using them?


I will note that lately I see so much derp ref 9mms, such as the avalanche recently over the FBI decision to go back to 9mm. It matters not that their 9mm ammo equals their .40 ammo and exceeds their .45 ammo in testing.

I note that back in the day when we issued 4" .357s our detectives could carry whatever they wanted. Many went to small guns like Chief's Specials or PPKs, but the guys that were considered gunfighters were carrying a model 19 or 66 2 1/2".

That magnum snub launched our duty ammo, always a 125gr JHP, depending on whether we were using Rem or Federal that year, and which lot number, anywhere from 1250-1350fps. That was considered to be a "manstopper" back then, as you have noted.

My G17 launches our issued +P 124gr Gold Dots at 1250-1275fps in the crono checks I have done on our duty ammo, done when we get new ammo in, again depending on which lot number, yet the 9mm is considered by many to be a puny round suitable only for accountants and girls.


ETQ; Doc and I were typing at the same time it appears. My observations are very similar to Doc's ref observed street reality of police duty ammo during that time period.

[Frank R]

You just compared a 357 snub to a G17. Not quite the same size barrel length.

[jetfire]

You just compared a 357 snub to a G17. Not quite the same size barrel length.

Due to the way barrel length is measured, a 3 inch snubby has about the same length of actual rifled barrel as a 4 inch auto.

[Frank R]

Due to the way barrel length is measured, a 3 inch snubby has about the same length of actual rifled barrel as a 4 inch auto.

Comparing ballistics between the two is not just based on barrel length, but I don't believe most people are interested in getting into such factors such as escaping gas from the revolver vs. the auto.

I do think a comparison would be more appropriate between a 4" revolver vs a 4" auto or a snubby revolver vs a compact auto.

[Rich]

Thanks for that, Chuck.

I'm really not trying to bad on the .357 here either, I carry one - I just don't buy that it's somehow more effective than other modern pistol rounds at putting bad guys in the dirt.

I`m with ya and like some of us carried / started with 38/357 revolvers. I'm even of thinking of going back to a 3inch version because for me it faster out of my AIWB than the 4inch Plus I refuse to use 357magnum loads because I'm faster and even more accurate using the 38spl/38spl+P . I figure more rounds faster on the bad guys is better than using the high recoiling 357magnum 125gr SJHP in a 4inch revolver.

I've done Bill drills using max loads 2400+125grSJHP and it aint much fun in a M19-4 and its a little better in a heavy 686-4 or GP100-4.

If someone really want to most of the 125gr SJHP use a 6inch barrel. I could tell a Big difference between the 4inch and 6inch. I never used a chrony but I'm sure it adds more velocity.

I heard stories back in the day that some LE officers actually carried 6inch barrel 357magnums. I deer hunted with my 6inchers and never tried using one for SD.
BTW I wish I could shoot a service pistol as accurately as I do a 6inch barrel 686/GP100.

[Rich]

Compared to anything from then or now

you must love the 357sig then

[Chuck Haggard]

Perhaps my point was missed; why is a 125gr .357 bullet at 1250-1350fps considered awesome, but a 124gr .355 bullet at 1250-1300fps considered puny?

[Alpha Sierra]

Perhaps my point was missed; why is a 125gr .357 bullet at 1250-1350fps considered awesome, but a 124gr .355 bullet at 1250-1300fps considered puny? because 9 mm j/k

[Rich]

I have seen some impressive wounding on unobstructed bad guys from the 125gr Remington mag loading. It does leave a lot to be desired when trying to get through barriers like auto glass though.

I saw a guy shot in the foot outside of a bar with a 357magnum the bullet was resting on the top of his shoe! It was strange.

Ive only shot IN WT Deer using 357magnum 125gr SJHP store bought and my handloads using lots of 2400.
I even thought that when the bullet fragmented it did more damage. Thanks to Doc I now know I was wrong about that assumption.

[Rich]

Perhaps my point was missed; why is a 125gr .357 bullet at 1250-1350fps considered awesome, but a 124gr .355 bullet at 1250-1300fps considered puny?

Do you know of any LEO who carried a 6inch barrel 357mag.

[Chuck Haggard]

Do you know of any LEO who carried a 6inch barrel 357mag.

Not locally.

Around here the 4" guns ruled across the board, and .357s loaded with by God magnum ammo were what everybody carried. None of that magnum revolver loaded with .38s around here.

[SAWBONES]

Perhaps my point was missed; why is a 125gr .357 bullet at 1250-1350fps considered awesome, but a 124gr .355 bullet at 1250-1300fps considered puny?

Don't know of any commercial 9mm cartridges with 124gr .355 bullets reliably traveling at 1250-1300fps from typical CCW or duty guns.
115gr +P+ maybe, but not 124gr.

I'd be pleased to know of some.

[Rich]

You know how G&A stories go ? I read of a few CHP guys packing six inch barrel 357magnums. I always wonder if that was true.

[Rich]

Don't know of any commercial 9mm cartridges with 124gr .355 bullets reliably traveling at 1250-1300fps from typical CCW or duty guns.
115gr +P+ maybe, but not 124gr.

I'd be pleased to know of some.

I bet the ranger 127gr+P+ in a M&P 5inch will come close maybe even in a M9. 124+P GD is pretty hot as well.

BTW the increase in velocity usually mean less penetration in BG ! One reason why 124gr HST has more BG penetration than 124gr HST+P

[mosin46]

it seems there is some cross talking on this board. not here long,but i see 3 dif groups with dif priorities. 1) high round count recreational shooters 2) LEO 3) civilians interested in good SD data. needs/wants vary a bunch. civilian (me) wants 1r stops with accurately placed shot(s). shooting thru glass,dry wall,2x4s,car doors etc might not be such a good thing. i am in fl so have better SD laws than say kali,ny,mass. still rather hope to hit a bad guy 1st try-some of us shoot revolvers better so i think they are still relevant. no civ is likely to survive a fight with a bunch of ak/ar toting bangers without a SAW on hand. long gun fights just can't work for a civ with back up being a grand kid in a car seat. 1 or 2 baddies,maybe,hopefully. not dissing hi caps,just looking at relevance. LEO with hopefully back up/swat coming-different deal. high round rec shooters-not applicable for me except to learn which guns do torture tests that civs would never get to. anyway just my .02.

[Dagga Boy]

Let me add some info here that is relevant to the discussion. In a similar time frame to what DocGKR is talking about, I was talking to many of the folks in the same circle he was in (this is before we knew each other and began some serious note comparing and calling in first hand ballistics reports). One of the guys I was connected with and I started a good dialog about .357 Mag. The issues of reality and gel came into play. In gel and in a controlled setting, the .357 Mag was a very good above average round. Nothing mind blowing or a death ray, simply a very good defensive round with non-mythical properties. This was totally different than many street reports of fantastic single round dumps of bad guys. So, based on this individuals position, he began looking at those field shootings where the .357 worked so well, particularly the 125 gr. stuff. What he found was of interest. These spectacular shootings had a very similar theme.

At night or in very low light.
Distance of 6 feet or less
Barrel length of 4" or less

What he determined was there was an additional factor involved that is not really duplicatable in gel and lab testing. The effects of flash and blast on those on the receiving end. If you have ever seen a full house 125 gr. 357 mag go off in a dark indoor range from a short barreled revolver, it is truly impressive. We were seeing 20 yard balls of flame from our SP101's with full house loads. Now imagine being a few feet in front of one. The thought was (which I agree with) was that the grenade going off in the face of bad guys was what was putting them on the ground (and likely in a fetal position) where they would realize that they had also been shot. Not one to go off a single source.....

I also talked to my best friend. He was very heavily involved with teams from all over the world during the late 70's through the mid 90's. He spent a significant amount of time at both GSG9 and with GIGN. He is a huge fan of the .357 mag snub. He said they called them ".38's with a flash bang" and the teams and individuals that used the .357 Mag revolver really liked them for working very close quarters like on aircraft and other tubes because they were not as over-penetrative as people thought (see DocGKR's post), and the blast and noise not only put the crooks down, but everyone nearby would tend to go to the ground where they wanted them.

Our guys used the little Ruger's for a specific SWAT mission, but they were mainly purchased by a bunch of our officers for one purpose-counter car jacking. At the time the main street we used to get to and leave work was also a very active place where gang members would approach a vehicle stopped and pull its occupant form the car at gun point. Our guys carried the Ruger Sp101's under their left legs or on their labs when driving in order to just quickly put them up against the window and shoot the carjacker through the glass. The blast along with the glass was considered a huge bonus as a means to break contact. It was also a great gun for contact shots if things went physical. Our most popular loading was the 180 gr. Black Talons that were a hunting round.

The one thing the semi-auto guns really don't do even with similar loads is put balls of flame down range. In the same vein I had some custom loads made for me for my snub nose .45 Colt Vaquero. Picture a 250 grain hollow point at a 1000 fps. behind BLACK POWDER out of a 3 3/4" barrel. To say that the results are nothing short of impressive is an understatement. At typical pistol fight distance of well inside 3 yards, they will light targets on fire...........which warms my heart. The smoke and flash along with the noise is simply overwhelming even from behind the gun when you know it is coming.

[jetfire]

Do you know of any LEO who carried a 6inch barrel 357mag.

Quite well, in fact.

[Chuck Haggard]

Don't know of any commercial 9mm cartridges with 124gr .355 bullets reliably traveling at 1250-1300fps from typical CCW or duty guns.
115gr +P+ maybe, but not 124gr.

I'd be pleased to know of some.

From duty length guns the 124gr +P Gold DOt we have been issuing for many years reliably runs in the 1250-1275fps range, again depending on what lot# we are using, etc.
The 124gr +P Ranger-T was in the 1200fps range when we issued it. I previously carried the 127gr Ranger-T quite a bit, and I have crono'd velocities with that load from my G17 i the 1325fps range.

Shorter barrels and such will of course give lower results.

The Speer Gold Dot 9mm +P and the "short barrel" are very similar loadings, in my experience the SB gives just slightly lower velocities than the +P;
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/9luger.html

[SAWBONES]

Thank you.

From the BBTI list, I guess you must be referring to guns with approx. 5" (or longer) barrels, e.g., the Beretta 92F?

I'm surprised at your measured 1325 fps from a G17 with the Ranger-T 127gr JHP.
The test at http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/2014/01/winchester-ranger-9mm-p-127-grain-t.html from an admittedly short barrel (G26) gave good penetration but poor expansion, and much lower velocities.

I still have a couple boxes of that load in the +P+ (RA9TA) version, but I've not used it for CCW because of that report.

Most of the 9mm guns typically used for CCW seem to be those with 4" barrels or less, so we non-LE CCW folks are probably outta luck for those kinds of higher velocities with heavier bulleted (124gr and greater) 9mm loads.

Because of posts here, I've been trying to locate a source of the Federal HST, but I can only find the 124gr standard (non+P) load locally or on the internet (everybody's out of +P), but I'm glad to learn that it at least penetrates more deeply.

[Chuck Haggard]

My theory is the polygonal bore helps some, but yes, that was from my G17

I have noted that some guns, even in the same brand, are "faster" than others. My Security Six would routinely throw our issued 125gr Remington .357s downrange in the 1490s

[xcop]

My theory is the polygonal bore helps some, but yes, that was from my G17

I have noted that some guns, even in the same brand, are "faster" than others. My Security Six would routinely throw our issued 125gr Remington .357s downrange in the 1490s

Recent chrono of 2013 headstamp 127 at 1339 avg from a G17 and 1294 from a G19. Definitely up there

[Chuck Haggard]

Recent chrono of 2013 headstamp 127 at 1339 avg from a G17 and 1294 from a G19. Definitely up there

That's in the same ballpark as what I was seeing over the years. I have crono'd that load at faster speeds than some .357Sig rounds I have tested.

[Jeep]

Let me add some info here that is relevant to the discussion. In a similar time frame to what DocGKR is talking about, I was talking to many of the folks in the same circle he was in (this is before we knew each other and began some serious note comparing and calling in first hand ballistics reports). One of the guys I was connected with and I started a good dialog about .357 Mag. The issues of reality and gel came into play. In gel and in a controlled setting, the .357 Mag was a very good above average round. Nothing mind blowing or a death ray, simply a very good defensive round with non-mythical properties. This was totally different than many street reports of fantastic single round dumps of bad guys. So, based on this individuals position, he began looking at those field shootings where the .357 worked so well, particularly the 125 gr. stuff. What he found was of interest. These spectacular shootings had a very similar theme.

At night or in very low light.
Distance of 6 feet or less
Barrel length of 4" or less

What he determined was there was an additional factor involved that is not really duplicatable in gel and lab testing. The effects of flash and blast on those on the receiving end. If you have ever seen a full house 125 gr. 357 mag go off in a dark indoor range from a short barreled revolver, it is truly impressive. We were seeing 20 yard balls of flame from our SP101's with full house loads. Now imagine being a few feet in front of one. The thought was (which I agree with) was that the grenade going off in the face of bad guys was what was putting them on the ground (and likely in a fetal position) where they would realize that they had also been shot. Not one to go off a single source.....

I also talked to my best friend. He was very heavily involved with teams from all over the world during the late 70's through the mid 90's. He spent a significant amount of time at both GSG9 and with GIGN. He is a huge fan of the .357 mag snub. He said they called them ".38's with a flash bang" and the teams and individuals that used the .357 Mag revolver really liked them for working very close quarters like on aircraft and other tubes because they were not as over-penetrative as people thought (see DocGKR's post), and the blast and noise not only put the crooks down, but everyone nearby would tend to go to the ground where they wanted them.

Our guys used the little Ruger's for a specific SWAT mission, but they were mainly purchased by a bunch of our officers for one purpose-counter car jacking. At the time the main street we used to get to and leave work was also a very active place where gang members would approach a vehicle stopped and pull its occupant form the car at gun point. Our guys carried the Ruger Sp101's under their left legs or on their labs when driving in order to just quickly put them up against the window and shoot the carjacker through the glass. The blast along with the glass was considered a huge bonus as a means to break contact. It was also a great gun for contact shots if things went physical. Our most popular loading was the 180 gr. Black Talons that were a hunting round.

The one thing the semi-auto guns really don't do even with similar loads is put balls of flame down range. In the same vein I had some custom loads made for me for my snub nose .45 Colt Vaquero. Picture a 250 grain hollow point at a 1000 fps. behind BLACK POWDER out of a 3 3/4" barrel. To say that the results are nothing short of impressive is an understatement. At typical pistol fight distance of well inside 3 yards, they will light targets on fire...........which warms my heart. The smoke and flash along with the noise is simply overwhelming even from behind the gun when you know it is coming.

This is a truly terrific post and it needs to be more widely disseminated. nyeti, you ought to write more on this.

[NerdAlert]

This is a truly terrific post and it needs to be more widely disseminated. nyeti, you ought to write more on this.

+1. It really makes me want to buy a short black powder revolver just for fun. Thanks Nyeti.

[Dagga Boy]

+1. It really makes me want to buy a short black powder revolver just for fun. Thanks Nyeti.

It is really a spectacular thing. One of things I also "theorized" is that most typical urban thugs and criminals have never seen a black powder round discharged. I figure seeing it for the first time from the muzzle end would be a big psychological indicator that it is time to lay down in the fetal position and just stop what you are doing.

[NerdAlert]

It is really a spectacular thing. One of things I also "theorized" is that most typical urban thugs and criminals have never seen a black powder round discharged. I figure seeing it for the first time from the muzzle end would be a big psychological indicator that it is time to lay down in the fetal position and just stop what you are doing.

Growing up I used to shoot black powder with a friend. It certainly would have the effect you described, and if not they would at least be on fire.


Sent from my iPhone, I apologize in advance for typos.

[Chuck Haggard]

That conversation nyeti and I had lead to a theory that a good non-dedicated CCW person carry gun would be a .357mag or .44 special loaded with hot black powder rounds.

One could disappear in the ninja smoke after firing a few shots, even if the bad guy didn't get hit.

[Jeep]

That conversation nyeti and I had lead to a theory that a good non-dedicated CCW person carry gun would be a .357mag or .44 special loaded with hot black powder rounds.

One could disappear in the ninja smoke after firing a few shots, even if the bad guy didn't get hit.

Or, if you inhale enough of the smoke, you might start coughing so hard that you could chokingly tell the bad guy that you have Ebola and watch him set a new record in the 100 yard dash.

[Jeep]

It is really a spectacular thing. One of things I also "theorized" is that most typical urban thugs and criminals have never seen a black powder round discharged. I figure seeing it for the first time from the muzzle end would be a big psychological indicator that it is time to lay down in the fetal position and just stop what you are doing.

Well, they are businessmen after a fashion. They even call robbing people "getting paid." I doubt that there is one in a thousand who thinks that getting set on fire is an acceptable risk of the business. Come to think of it, I can't blame them. This whole getting set on fire thing, accompanied by a huge fireball and a big blast, is definitely not on my bucket list.

[Dagga Boy]

Famous older picture, but it makes a point.

[SeriousStudent]

That clinches it for me. I'm bringing my S&W Model 60 2" wheelie to class Saturday, along with a box of Remington 125-grain .357 Magnum SJHP's I got last week.

How far back do we have to be, to not set the berm on fire?

[Lester Polfus]

at least be on fire.



THAT is a BBQ gun....

[Hizzie]

I carried Federal 357B when I rocked the 681PC Quadport on duty. Guys would complain about having to qualify next to me because of the flash. Low light quals were rather exciting.

[Chuck Haggard]

I carried Federal 357B when I rocked the 681PC Quadport on duty. Guys would complain about having to qualify next to me because of the flash. Low light quals were rather exciting.


One of those "kids nowadays" stories; Guy next to me that last time I qual'd with my 681 complained that he had dropped points due to me "shooting that cannon next to me" and throwing off his concentration. I remarked that he was lucky to not have had to qual back in the day when the entire line would have been shootings .357s

[JHC]

Famous older picture, but it makes a point.

I can clearly recall THAT famous picture from back in the day and of Mas Ayoob writing about the time at SHOT that he spoke with a bonified terminal ballistics expert (he didn't name) that explained the legend of the 125 gr .357 as psychological stops. Ayoob indicated he strongly signaled his dismay at that theory AT THAT time.

I happen to think Ayoob's contribution in total to the craft has been immense and I remain a fan of his to this day. But I think he has softened on that score - of the psych stop. It makes a great deal of sense what the fair number of mouse guns that deliver those to some miscreants. The SS agent wounded in the liver during the Reagan shooting was hit by the same .22 and he pretty much lept off the ground and hit the deck.

[Jeep]

Famous older picture, but it makes a point.

Can you imagine how terrifying it would be seeing that fireball come at you?

[DocGKR]

A lot of .357 Magnum stops were indeed the result of "psychological incapacitation".

[Totem Polar]

I carried Federal 357B when I rocked the 681PC Quadport on duty. Guys would complain about having to qualify next to me because of the flash. Low light quals were rather exciting.



One of those "kids nowadays" stories; Guy next to me that last time I qual'd with my 681 complained that he had dropped points due to me "shooting that cannon next to me" and throwing off his concentration. I remarked that he was lucky to not have had to qual back in the day when the entire line would have been shootings .357s

So long as we are sharing "get off my lawn stories", anyone here remember the Taurus "carry packs"--essentially the same "tame the beast" SP101 hybraport deal as applied to the Taurus 605 revolver when Jack Weigand was head of their custom shop? I know: "Taurus", but those Weigand guns were an exception, with good finish, lock up and triggers, all things considered. At any rate, I will *never* forget touching off my first cylinder of Federal's 125 gr .357 sjhp outta that thing: the blast was *ferocious* and the gun actually recoiled downward away from the 3 jets coming from those graduated holes.

The best was watching my dad touch off his first round as it edged towards dusk (shooting together after work); he regularly wore these clip-on flip up sunglasses, eg.

http://images1.opticsplanet.com/365-240-ffffff/opplanet-cocoons-flip-up-sunglasses-square-gray-up.jpg


And the spare gas/concussion/whatever from the unburned portion of that 1450fps c357b load literally blew his upturned flip up lenses right the fuck off of his eyeglasses. Pretty funny to both of us at the time; but what a blast and pink-floyd-esque light show from those ports.

[Sgt_Gold]

I was shooting a 6" .357 revolver at my local range when one of the rifle shooters came down to the pistol side and asked WTF was I shooting? The sound was like an explosion and even in the middle of the day they could see a three foot fireball every time I fired the gun. I was shooting Winchester Win Clean 158gr .357 Magnum ammunition. I can only imagine what it would have looked like in a low light situation.

[LOBO]

Most internet gel tests are NOT well done; among many issues, most fail to do the minimum number of 5 shots per test event--10 shots is even better.

During the early to mid 1980’s, like many people, I was duped by articles singing the praises of the .357 Mag 125 gr JHP. I carried a 4” 686 and a customized 3” M13 loaded with Fed 125 gr JHP. However, after going on active military duty and being in a position to test ammunition at the Letterman Army Institute of Research with Dr. Fackler, it became obvious that the .357 Magnum 125 gr JHP’s tended to have relatively shallow penetration, frequently fragmented with resultant decrease in permanent crush cavity, and had temporary cavities of insufficient size to contribute significantly to wounding. In addition, these loads had a large muzzle flash and blast, as well as a relatively harsh recoil which inhibited accuracy and re-engagement speed. As the FBI established a science based ammunition testing program, their research data also showed less than stellar performance from the lightweight .357 Mag loadings, including the 125 gr JHP’s. .357 Mag can certainly offer adequate terminal ballistics, however, there is a reason very few agencies issue .357 mag revolvers for self-defense/force protection purposes anymore. I personally would prefer a good service pistol in 9mm/.40 S&W/.45 Auto over a .357 mag revolver for SD/duty use. We don’t do much .357 Mag testing anymore, as it simply is not used by the folks we test for, however, in past years, like the other facilities noted above, in our testing the lightweight 125 gr and under .357 Mag loadings often had insufficient penetration, while the 158 gr and heavier loadings frequently penetrated deeper than ideal for use on biped opponents. To be honest, I no longer have much use for .357 Mag, always choosing a 4-5" .44 Mag revolver (wouldn't mind a .41 Mag or hot .45 Colt) for any back country purposes and preferring the "controlability" and reduced blast/flash of .38 Sp +P loadings for urban self-defense use in 2-3" barrel revolvers. The best modern .357 Mag loadings we have tested have been the Winchester 180 gr Partition Gold and loads using the Barnes XPB all copper bullets when shot from barrels of 4" and longer; the old Win 145 gr Silvertip works OK as well, as do a couple of the newer bonded loads.

For those individuals who doubt evidence based research and prefer “street results”, the CHP, the largest agency to issue .357 Mag 125 gr JHP’s on the West Coast, clearly reported significantly better results in their officer involved shootings after switching to .40 S&W 180 gr JHP loadings, based on officer perception, objective crime scene measurements, as well as the physiological damage described in the relevant autopsy studies. The CHP used a variety of .357 Mag loads, depending upon what was available via the state contract. According to the published CHP test data from 1989-90, the .357 Magnum load used immediately prior to the CHP transition to .40 S&W was the Remington 125 gr JHP with an ave. MV of 1450 f/s from their 4" duty revolvers. I first saw the data when it was presented during a wound ballistic conference I attended at the CHP Academy in the early 1990's; I heard it discussed again at a CHP Officer Involved Shootings Investigation Team meeting in November of 1997 at Vallejo, CA. The information reviewed the differences in ammunition terminal performance such as penetration depth, recovered bullet characteristics, tissue damage, as well as other physiological measurements and physical evidence detailed during forensic analysis.


Regarding the .41 magnum, what are your thoughts on the Winchester 175 gr Silvertip load?

[Hizzie]

I was shooting a 6" .357 revolver at my local range when one of the rifle shooters came down to the pistol side and asked WTF was I shooting? The sound was like an explosion and even in the middle of the day they could see a three foot fireball every time I fired the gun. I was shooting Winchester Win Clean 158gr .357 Magnum ammunition. I can only imagine what it would have looked like in a low light situation.

The shakedown session with my SP101 and Federal 357B's prompted questions from the range staff about what 44 magnum I was using.

[Unobtanium]

Will a .357 magnum loading that exceeds 12" in gel exceed 1800fps from your carry piece?

If so, then yes, that's nasty.

If no, then why is it superior to a 9mm which also fires similar weight and identical diameter projectiles which reliably expand to the same diameter, considering that TSC is not a wounding mechanism of note below about 1800fps?

[Unobtanium]

A lot of .357 Magnum stops were indeed the result of "psychological incapacitation".

Yes, the incapacitate me shooting next to someone with a 3" version at indoor ranges.

[Unobtanium]

One needs to understand that the 357 Magnum gained its reputation from driving bullets fast enough that they expanded reliably when 9mm and .45 were failing to do so. It also has some spectacular successes and spectacular failures (fragmenting light bullets) in its record. Mark Coates being a failure. Really, it remains an "emotional choice" this day and age.

[Alpha Sierra]

Looks pretty nasty to me


http://youtu.be/Q7w4M-LNXuQ


http://youtu.be/KxXTNzpBcvM


http://youtu.be/lTWFbuzX-l8

[jetfire]

The big problem with slo-mo bullet video is that while it looks super impressive, you're also seeing a ton of temporary stretch cavitation, which (repeat after me) is not a wounding mechanism of handgun bullets. It just isn't. So not matter how much the gel flexes and bounces, the only thing that matters when a handgun round hits it is the permanent crush cavity. And the .357 just doesn't crush any more tissue than a super hot 9mm.

[Chuck Haggard]

I do think that a good temp cavity, even if it doesn't damage tissue, places the person on notice that "hey dumb-ass, I just shot you" if nothing else.

I can punch 100 people hard in the solar plexus and get a high percentage of folks that hit the deck, and achieve zero permanent tissue damage in doing so.

[Unobtanium]

I do think that a good temp cavity, even if it doesn't damage tissue, places the person on notice that "hey dumb-ass, I just shot you" if nothing else.

I can punch 100 people hard in the solar plexus and get a high percentage of folks that hit the deck, and achieve zero permanent tissue damage in doing so.

While that makes sense on paper, it hasn't done so in the real world as relates to pistol calibers.

[Alpha Sierra]

The big problem with slo-mo bullet video is that while it looks super impressive, you're also seeing a ton of temporary stretch cavitation, which (repeat after me) is not a wounding mechanism of handgun bullets.
Temporary stretch cavity is not a wounding mechanism of SOME handgun bullets: http://www.brassfetcher.com/Wounding%20Theory/Velocity%20of%20Radial%20Expansion.pdf

[Chuck Haggard]

While that makes sense on paper, it hasn't done so in the real world as relates to pistol calibers.

In my observation it in fact has, it's just unreliable in it's effects

[Chuck Haggard]

Temporary stretch cavity is not a wounding mechanism of SOME handgun bullets: http://www.brassfetcher.com/Wounding%20Theory/Velocity%20of%20Radial%20Expansion.pdf

While Brassfetcher does some high quality tests, I think his conclusions on what he is looking at are often off base.

[Alpha Sierra]

While Brassfetcher does some high quality tests, I think his conclusions on what he is looking at are often off base.
I guess BF's analysis hinges on this:

Being constrained on this report to work within the (very limited) publically-available data set for human survivability, we set the upper limit of non-injury to be that of the kinetic energy corresponding to a commercial BB gun at 430 ft/sec. Hits with this weapon are not generally associated with fatal wounds, so should provide a somewhat realistic representation of what could be expected to happen to unprotected internal organs being stressed by an equivalent force
Maybe DocGKR can give an opinion on their entering argument.

If the entering argument is valid, then it follows that this is also valid:

With a peak radial kinetic energy of 7.85 ft-lbf, the radial movement of tissue away from a 357 Magnum 125gr Speer Gold Dot JHP (at 1405 ft/sec impact velocity) is capable of creating a wound similar to a 0.177” steel BB traveling at 850 ft/sec. At that velocity, a steel BB is capable of penetrating well over 4” of 10-percent ballistic gelatin.

I'm trying to look at this from an engineer's point of view.

[DocGKR]

"I'm trying to look at this from an engineer's point of view."

And that is the crux of the problem. After the closure in 1991 of the Army Wound Ballistic Research Laboratory run by surgeons, almost all Army terminal ballistic studies have been done by engineers with NO medical training. That leads to numerous mathematical calculations and models that look great on paper, but ignore the realities of anatomy and physiology. "Brassfetcher" has been a tech at one of those Army facilities and so his tests reflect that mindset.

The past decade of OCONUS counter-terrorist operations have provided a tremendous amount of combat derived terminal performance information. From 2002-2006, the U.S. government gathered numerous experts from a variety of disciplines, including military and law enforcement end-users, trauma surgeons, aero ballisticians, weapon and munitions engineers, and other scientific specialists to form the Joint Service Wound Ballistic Integrated Product Team to conduct a 4 year, 6 million dollar study to determine what terminal performance assessment best reflected the actual findings noted in combat. The test protocol that was found to be correct, valid, and became the agreed upon JSWB-IPT “standard” evolved from the one first developed by Dr. Fackler at LAIR in the 1980’s, promoted by the IWBA in the 1990’s, and used by most reputable wound ballistic researchers including the FBI BRF, NSWC Crane, the USMC, and USSOCOM. In other words an anatomic and physiologically based damage-based metric that has relevance to and accurately reflects the real world. Of course the Big Army establishment objected to this conclusion and did everything they could to suppress those findings, as it contradicted its long standing protocols (KE, P(I/H), EKE, AKE, E(I/H), ORCA, etc...) which rely on flawed measures of "lethality" and "incapacitation" that are in essence elaborate fantasy games of mathematical calculations, engineering statistics, computer modeling, and pseudo-science that fail to truly reflect the fact that in the gritty realm of face-to-face combat, incapacitating the enemy is about rapidly inflicting sufficient physiological damage to the attacker’s critical anatomic structures in order to stop that opponent from continuing to be a lethal threat.

[Jeep]

In my observation it in fact has, it's just unreliable in it's effects

One would think that a large temporary stretch cavity is an area with a lot of nerves is going to cause either pain or sensation that will register in the brain. Whether that will stop someone or not probably will have a lot to do with adrenaline as well as motivation and a number of other psychological factors--thus making it unpredictable and hence unreliable.

But it strikes me as one of those things, like other psychological factors, that while they can't be counted on certainly occur in more than a few cases.

Penetration and expansion thus have to come first. But assuming you have that, and all else being equal, having a decent prospect of also causing a psychological/physiological stop seems to me to be a potentially very good thing.

[Chuck Haggard]

One would think that a large temporary stretch cavity is an area with a lot of nerves is going to cause either pain or sensation that will register in the brain. Whether that will stop someone or not probably will have a lot to do with adrenaline as well as motivation and a number of other psychological factors--thus making it unpredictable and hence unreliable.

But it strikes me as one of those things, like other psychological factors, that while they can't be counted on certainly occur in more than a few cases.

Penetration and expansion thus have to come first. But assuming you have that, and all else being equal, having a decent prospect of also causing a psychological/physiological stop seems to me to be a potentially very good thing.



Exactly.

If I had to choose between two projectiles, they penetrated and expanded the same, but bullet #2 had a bigger temp cavity, all else being equal I'd pick that bullet. Life ain't that simple though......

I will note that a surgeon friend, in talking to him about that .357mag OIS I posted on, told me that he thought it likely, from my description of the wound track, that the bullet directly hitting the tibia had missed the fibula but broke it anyway.

[Chuck Haggard]

And that is the crux of the problem. After the closure in 1991 of the Army Wound Ballistic Research Laboratory run by surgeons, almost all Army terminal ballistic studies have been done by engineers with NO medical training. That leads to numerous mathematical calculations and models that look great on paper, but ignore the realities of anatomy and physiology. "Brassfetcher" has been a tech at one of those Army facilities and so his tests reflect that mindset.

The past decade of OCONUS counter-terrorist operations have provided a tremendous amount of combat derived terminal performance information. From 2002-2006, the U.S. government gathered numerous experts from a variety of disciplines, including military and law enforcement end-users, trauma surgeons, aero ballisticians, weapon and munitions engineers, and other scientific specialists to form the Joint Service Wound Ballistic Integrated Product Team to conduct a 4 year, 6 million dollar study to determine what terminal performance assessment best reflected the actual findings noted in combat. The test protocol that was found to be correct, valid, and became the agreed upon JSWB-IPT “standard” evolved from the one first developed by Dr. Fackler at LAIR in the 1980’s, promoted by the IWBA in the 1990’s, and used by most reputable wound ballistic researchers including the FBI BRF, NSWC Crane, the USMC, and USSOCOM. In other words an anatomic and physiologically based damage-based metric that has relevance to and accurately reflects the real world. Of course the Big Army establishment objected to this conclusion and did everything they could to suppress those findings, as it contradicted its long standing protocols (KE, P(I/H), EKE, AKE, E(I/H), ORCA, etc...) which rely on flawed measures of "lethality" and "incapacitation" that are in essence elaborate fantasy games of mathematical calculations, engineering statistics, computer modeling, and pseudo-science that fail to truly reflect the fact that in the gritty realm of face-to-face combat, incapacitating the enemy is about rapidly inflicting sufficient physiological damage to the attacker’s critical anatomic structures in order to stop that opponent from continuing to be a lethal threat.



Thanks for taking the time to type that out. Excellent info.

[JHC]

Exactly.

If I had to choose between two projectiles, they penetrated and expanded the same, but bullet #2 had a bigger temp cavity, all else being equal I'd pick that bullet. Life ain't that simple though......

I will note that a surgeon friend, in talking to him about that .357mag OIS I posted on, told me that he thought it likely, from my description of the wound track, that the bullet directly hitting the tibia had missed the fibula but broke it anyway.

A large buck I doubled lunged from a range of about 20 feet with a 55 grain Trophy Bonded Bear Claw .223 load, upon examination had TWO broken ribs at the entry wound. The bullet expanded perfectly like a magazine ad and was recovered just under the skin on the far side. The wound channel through the lungs was like a 2 inch auger bored through it neatly. Very different than the internal explosion that I've seen from OTM bullets at close range. But TWO broken ribs under a .22 diameter entry would was pretty weird.

[Unobtanium]

A large buck I doubled lunged from a range of about 20 feet with a 55 grain Trophy Bonded Bear Claw .223 load, upon examination had TWO broken ribs at the entry wound. The bullet expanded perfectly like a magazine ad and was recovered just under the skin on the far side. The wound channel through the lungs was like a 2 inch auger bored through it neatly. Very different than the internal explosion that I've seen from OTM bullets at close range. But TWO broken ribs under a .22 diameter entry would was pretty weird.

You're also talking about rifle velocities.

[JHC]

Exactly. But it's sorta like Chuck's tibula and fibula story. Sorta. ;)

[Jeep]

Perhaps the answer to this is a matter of statistics. In other words, the chance of a temporary cavity being able to cause damage is a very low--but not completely impossible--at fast pistol velocities and that probability continues to increase as velocities increase until it becomes a high probability event. That might help to explain events like these.

[DocGKR]

It is a spectrum, not a sharp dividing line.

[jetfire]

Temporary stretch cavity is not a wounding mechanism of SOME handgun bullets: http://www.brassfetcher.com/Wounding%20Theory/Velocity%20of%20Radial%20Expansion.pdf

In the case of Brassfetcher vs. the FBI ballistic's experts, I pick the FBI all day long.

Kinectic energy doesn't kill people, putting holes in their organs does.

[Jeep]

It is a spectrum, not a sharp dividing line.

Thank you, Doc. That helps to crystalize the thoughts I was groping for and explain phenomena like these.

[Chuck Whitlock]

New from Hornady:

http://www.hornady.com/store/357-Mag-135-gr-Critical-Duty