Tactical training for the CCW holder

[GJM]

Exclude mil and LE training for this discussion.

Beyond technical shooting training, I am interested in discussing what tactical training the typical CCW gun owner should have. Source of the training, duration of the training, frequency of recurrent training, etc.

[Jay Cunningham]

Exclude mil and LE training for this discussion.

Beyond technical shooting training, I am interested in discussing what tactical training the typical CCW gun owner should have. Source of the training, duration of the training, frequency of recurrent training, etc.

That's a topic near and dear to my heart.

[KevinB]

Exclude mil and LE training for this discussion.

Beyond technical shooting training, I am interested in discussing what tactical training the typical CCW gun owner should have. Source of the training, duration of the training, frequency of recurrent training, etc.

I'll take a swing.

I've done a little bit of CQB and HR training, either Mil or LE based. Maybe 4-5 months worth - so honestly not a great deal comparably.
I find the CCW/Home Defense aspect to be very similar to individual LE training / Active Shooter training. Now most classes for the LE side will not let you in without creds.
It is very different when you are operating on your own, as opposed to a team - the tactics are different.

When you look for team training, a guy who has multiple years at the highest end of the spectrum is who I like (say 10 plus years in CAG, DEV, SAS, SASR, or JTF-2) operational experience, and relatively current experiences - as tactics have evolved while we have been fighting the GWOT.

Now while those are all great experiences - they do not translate 100% into teaching single shooter tactics.
Guys who do this best are usually not teaching on the net - covert folks who live in a 1 man world
(*I am sure there are some former agency guys who are teaching - but I don't know any) now a lot of the former SMU guys have at one time done this and there are a few guys that run classes in this - but initially I would look to a really checked out LEO - who has some SWAT time, but is focused in the patrol world. Why? because patrol LEO with pistol and flashlight mirrors pretty much what the armed civilian has. Also ensure their #1 goal is safety.

Clearing your house (you may need to enter - or make your way thru your dwelling to family) as a single shooter - do not look like a HR team rolling thru the home, nor does it look like a SWAT team clearing on a warrant (hopefully). Single person clearing is dangerous - you are your own backup -- you cannot see 360 at all times. You need to be given the opportunities both live and FoF to come to see the balances between safety and speed, and know when speed will give safety.

Jay had the opportunity to see me repeatedly botch 1 man entries on a LAV/Ken Hackathorn Low Light class -- why because I was on leave from Iraq, and I was thinking in a team environment - and not solo - so I entered like I would with a teammate or more - and Ken would go "Pow, Kevin you're dead" - as I'd either crash my corner - or only pie a portion.
I take a lot of time to re-train the brain, especially under-pressure, when all I had up to that point was 2-Infinity man entry experience.

I don't know if I would call it a training scar - as I see it more of a training deficiency.

Once you are comfortable with a few classes - then I would look to a Home Defense CQB class given by someone like Jason Falla (RedBackOne), or some of the other former SMU personnel.
* I like Jason, I've taken classes from him, and I've gone thru the door with him on live raids.

I view CQB training as an ideally refresher class every 6months for the homeowner -- starting off - I would try to do 2-3 classes in the space of 2 months.


Now after for why to look to a SMU guy to teach CQB even for civilian home defense
Outside of the SMU side of the Military where folks get to kick door turn left for months learning it - no one in the world gets the budget or the time to learn it that way.
Safety in a house is PARAMOUNT - there are a number of folks offering courses - and IMHO the VAST majority are NOT qualified to do it, as your life if yours and you only get one.
Do not ever sacrifice your safety, CQB is dangerous, so do not make it more, if you ever see someone ignoring rules, just walk away.

[GJM]

I'll take a swing.

I've done a little bit of CQB and HR training, either Mil or LE based. Maybe 4-5 months worth - so honestly not a great deal comparably.
I find the CCW/Home Defense aspect to be very similar to individual LE training / Active Shooter training. Now most classes for the LE side will not let you in without creds.
It is very different when you are operating on your own, as opposed to a team - the tactics are different.

When you look for team training, a guy who has multiple years at the highest end of the spectrum is who I like (say 10 plus years in CAG, DEV, SAS, SASR, or JTF-2) operational experience, and relatively current experiences - as tactics have evolved while we have been fighting the GWOT.

Now while those are all great experiences - they do not translate 100% into teaching single shooter tactics.
Guys who do this best are usually not teaching on the net - covert folks who live in a 1 man world
(*I am sure there are some former agency guys who are teaching - but I don't know any) now a lot of the former SMU guys have at one time done this and there are a few guys that run classes in this - but initially I would look to a really checked out LEO - who has some SWAT time, but is focused in the patrol world. Why? because patrol LEO with pistol and flashlight mirrors pretty much what the armed civilian has. Also ensure their #1 goal is safety.

Clearing your house (you may need to enter - or make your way thru your dwelling to family) as a single shooter - do not look like a HR team rolling thru the home, nor does it look like a SWAT team clearing on a warrant (hopefully). Single person clearing is dangerous - you are your own backup -- you cannot see 360 at all times. You need to be given the opportunities both live and FoF to come to see the balances between safety and speed, and know when speed will give safety.

Jay had the opportunity to see me repeatedly botch 1 man entries on a LAV/Ken Hackathorn Low Light class -- why because I was on leave from Iraq, and I was thinking in a team environment - and not solo - so I entered like I would with a teammate or more - and Ken would go "Pow, Kevin you're dead" - as I'd either crash my corner - or only pie a portion.
I take a lot of time to re-train the brain, especially under-pressure, when all I had up to that point was 2-Infinity man entry experience.

I don't know if I would call it a training scar - as I see it more of a training deficiency.

Once you are comfortable with a few classes - then I would look to a Home Defense CQB class given by someone like Jason Falla (RedBackOne), or some of the other former SMU personnel.
* I like Jason, I've taken classes from him, and I've gone thru the door with him on live raids.

I view CQB training as an ideally refresher class every 6months for the homeowner -- starting off - I would try to do 2-3 classes in the space of 2 months.


Now after for why to look to a SMU guy to teach CQB even for civilian home defense
Outside of the SMU side of the Military where folks get to kick door turn left for months learning it - no one in the world gets the budget or the time to learn it that way.
Safety in a house is PARAMOUNT - there are a number of folks offering courses - and IMHO the VAST majority are NOT qualified to do it, as your life if yours and you only get one.
Do not ever sacrifice your safety, CQB is dangerous, so do not make it more, if you ever see someone ignoring rules, just walk away.

Kevin, thanks for taking a swing at this. I find this topic very interesting, and moderators if you want to split it into a separate thread, that is fine by me.

A few thoughts.

1) My question was for the "typical CCW" person. I can't imagine 1 in 1000 cow folks would take 2-3 classes in a few months and then commit to a 6 month recurrent training schedule.

2) If a SME with extensive military and LE experience like you was repeatedly killed doing a simulated entry, I would say the average CCW person has NO business doing a one man entry. Call the police. And if that is not feasible, I would ingrain in them that they are likely to be killed and accept those odds going in in the 1 in a zillion percent chance they would need to do such a thing.

3) If we eliminate the one man clearing stuff, what tactical training does the typical CCW person need to go with their technical shooting skills?

[BJJ]

. 3) If we eliminate the one man clearing stuff, what tactical training does the typical CCW person need to go with their technical shooting skills?

I believe a very thorough answer can be found here:

http://ballisticradio.com/2013/05/14/podcast-ballistic-radio-episode-10-may-12-2013/

[Alpha Sierra]

2) If a SME with extensive military and LE experience like you was repeatedly killed doing a simulated entry, I would say the average CCW person has NO business doing a one man entry. Call the police. And if that is not feasible, I would ingrain in them that they are likely to be killed and accept those odds going in in the 1 in a zillion percent chance they would need to do such a thing.
From what I read above, Kevin got nailed doing one man entries because he did them like he would do them as part of a team. In other words, he did it wrong.

Is clearing a house solo extremely dangerous? Sure. But it's even more so when someone does it using team tactics instead of tactics more appropriate to doing it alone.

So no, I don't agree with your conclusion.

[jetfire]

While the actual gun manipulations are a little dated, I strongly recommend Gunsite's 250 course for CCW holders who want to get a quality base of instruction; especially if they're not likely to ever take another class again. It covers a lot of the stuff that Kevin talked about, but does it from a "solo/armed civilian" POV, all the shoot house stuff the emphasis is on protecting yourself and not taking the kind of risks you would if you had backup.

[Drang]

Beyond technical shooting training, I am interested in discussing what tactical training the typical CCW gun owner should have. Source of the training, duration of the training, frequency of recurrent training, etc.

As much as s/he can budget time and ammo for.

Thing is, for the "typical" CCW holder that means hitting the range once a month, hopefully with a Range Officer who is willing and able to give a few pointers.

Now, the odds say that very few CCW holders are actually going to even skin their smokewagon (sorry, Tombstone was on cable last weekend) off the range, other than putting it away at home, so do they really need any advanced training?
Early in my career at The Salt Mines I mentioned that I was going to be assisting with an NRA Basic Pistol class at one of the local gun clubs that weekend; a guy on my crew, (who was WAANG, getting ready to head to the Sandbox) asked me what "fighting techniques" we taught? "Ground fighting? Retention?..."
"Dude, this is an NRA Basic class, for Joe and Jolene Sixpack, who just bought their first pistol, and maybe their kids! Some of the students are 'mobility impaired!'"

Thing is, advanced classes, if you can afford them, will certainly keep the interest up beyond "just hitting the range monthly" or even taking the same advanced class at the local range as an annual refresher. So, certainly, if a "Home Defense" "Vehicle Defense" or "CQB" class is available, these would be good.

*A "Tactical First Aid Class", with advice on what to put in your blow-out kit and where to get it, should certainly be high on the list.
*A lecture on their local gun laws, and maybe surrounding jurisdictions, should also be sought.

[Mr_White]

Great topic!

In my mind, I break this into a core set of material, and then what might be attended if someone wants to do more than the core. Organizing it is a little confounded by the blurred lines and relatedness of various elements of mindset, skills, and tactics, but, attempting to focus on tactics:

General self-protective tactics are going to be the backbone.

Ways to recover from initiative deficit - not in the context of ECQC mechanics, but rather in the outside-arms-length-pistol-fight context – so lateral movement while drawing and sneaky tactics of misdirection to create the opportunity to run or fight could be really good.

A post-shooting procedure that accounts for threats down but not out, additional threats, and mitigating danger from responding LE or other citizens could be really good.

Once you get beyond that, we are probably talking about more outlying events.

Some training in solo movement in a structure, oriented toward home defense, might be good.

Some training in the use of a flashlight, oriented toward threat ID/assessment and engagement, as opposed to navigation and searching, might be good.

Some training in defending from a seated position and from and within vehicles might be good.

My personal interest and focus in the last few years has centered around tactics involving spatial management. Some of this impinges into skills, but I conceptualize this cluster together: shooting on the move and at moving targets and on the move, management of shot angles to mitigate danger to bystanders, basic use of cover and the short-form solo maneuvers (flanking and overrunning, essentially) that can branch out of the use of cover by threats/defenders.

[JM Campbell]

Sounds like ECQC & AMIS would be a great start and refresher to this subject matter on a lot of levels.

Hopefully SN can way in on his experience.

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[Clay]

I think Tom Givens' Combative Pistol and Dynamic Marksmanship classes would be ideal, followed up by regular range visits - say once a month or so. A basic first aid course dealing with gunshot wounds, etc. would be ideal. Mas Ayoob's MAG-20 or MAG-40 would be a great choice, too. I think the average CCW holder needs a really good mindset/ use of force class, along with basic marksmanship fundamentals - and not so much the runnin and gunnin high speed gunfighter stuff. Clint and Heidi Smith's Defensive Concealed Carry class is another excellent choice, if you have the cash.

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[orionz06]

Sounds like ECQC & AMIS would be a great start and refresher to this subject matter on a lot of levels.

Hopefully SN can way in on his experience.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

I'm not sure there is as much value in those classes without some level of competency prior to attendance. They are both on my list of must take classes. I think AMIS is really the only one out there that addresses the solo structure problem from a civilian/lone LE perspective. Many other classes I have seen or been in have been team tactics taught for one person against paper targets that can't tell you about your use of cover.



As far as relevancy for handgun use I think Tom Givens puts out a very realistically balanced class, with data to support the material. Plus he actually carries a gun all the time.

[Dagga Boy]

Having taken some classes from Tom Givens as well as just finishing his three day Instructor class as a student, I would concur that he is at the top of the food chain for training armed citizens. What is interesting, is that a ton of what we teach that is geared towards individual police officers (tons of stuff out there geared toward SWAT operations, but we have gotten away from this) operating alone or with very limited assistance. While we differ with Tom on a few things (mainly tac reloads, and I can easily articulate why for both LE and non LE, and some revolver stuff that are both pretty minor differences) a majority is exactly the same.

Keep in mind that for problems citizens face, they are a regular day at the office for local patrol cops, with all the same folks as adversaries and all of the same investigative review and the same legal system in place for both the LEO's and armed citizens. We feel that there is "something" to this, others disagree. Also keep in mind that off-duty LEO's are essentially CHL folks and many of the lessons learned with off-duty encounters mirrors CHL carriers experiences. The main issue from a training standpoint is that there are a ton of LEO's (former and current) training people that had no business training there own people and certainly shouldn't be training others. The hard part is that a vast majority of armed civilians get very questionable "training" and are often reeled in by those good at marketing and not so good with content.
The answer is for people to take a very serious look at who they are going to for training. Often, easy replaces serious.

[KevinB]

Good points all.

I was basing my response more to the PF Crowd - as a baseline -- not to the national average. I believe a number of folks here take classes regularly (1/month, or 1 every 2 months), and shoot at least 1/week.

I was also basing this on my assumption that before seeking any sort of CQB class that one has a core background in weapons handling and safety.
I would not recommend it for anyone who just bought a gun.

I would hope anyone carrying a gun has taken a TCCC class.

[Jay Cunningham]

I started teaching in 2010 because I saw patterns in the firearms training industry that I didn't like. I hoped that I could do the shooters one better than I'd been seeing.

I didn't like dogmatic instruction, I didn't like lots of down time and long lunches, and I didn't like low round counts and a slow tempo when it was time to shoot. I didn't like irrelevant war stories or trash-talking other instructors in the industry. I didn't like hero-worship from student cliques, and I didn't like very specialized techniques and tactics thoughtlessly pawned off as great for general consumption. I didn't like the complete inability of most shooting instructors to properly diagnose shooting. I didn't like students playing dress-up and screwing around when I was trying to learn. And I really didn't like when instructors seemed to just "phone it in".

So I decided to do my best to effect change.

The tactics, techniques, and procedures I teach are rooted in analysis of proven military, law enforcement, and competition methods. I run all of this material through a filter to give people everything they need and nothing they don't.

I use a systematic approach to training: I design and develop my clinics and courses from the best available information and tailor them to the responsible armed citizen. I strive to continually evaluate the implementation of my programs to ensure that I'm responsive to student needs and current events. My goal is to provide armed citizens with the necessary tools to prevail against a lethal threat in the everyday world. I start with training the fundamentals, then move to training the middle of the statistical bell curve for civilian armed encounters, then move to training for outliers on that bell curve. To supplement the full coursework, I run half day clinics to provide high intensity training for experienced shooters, as well as development opportunities for newer shooters.

Tom Givens does a huge amount of it right. Craig Douglas does a huge amount of it right. Pat Goodale's Practical Firearms Training does a huge amount of it right. Others have pieces parts which are very, very good.

[SouthNarc]

Sounds like ECQC & AMIS would be a great start and refresher to this subject matter on a lot of levels.

Hopefully SN can way in on his experience.

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Well since you asked I don't think the solo/lo-vis/singleton/non-kinetic/ "don't have a tactical version of the NFL behind me" paradigm is adequately addressed by former mil guys well at all, unless they served clandestinely. That's rare. That's not a regular part of their mission. Guys that serve(d) Blue or Green may have some training in that regard but that's not what they do. There are SMUs that do that are small and rarely discussed. Sean would probably agree with me on this but may very well have insight that I don't. If he does, he probably can't really discuss that openly.

Solo skillsets are completely different IMO. Hyper-vigilance and technical expression of awareness, spatial relationships, verbal agility, initiative, geometry, and decision making trump marksmanship as far as priority.

These aren't things you generally learn on ranges.

Random outpouring I know but I'll try and post more later.

[KevinB]

Well since you asked I don't think the solo/lo-vis/singleton/non-kinetic/ "don't have a tactical version of the NFL behind me" paradigm is adequately addressed by former mil guys well at all, unless they served clandestinely. That's rare. That's not a regular part of their mission. Guys that serve(d) Blue or Green may have some training in that regard but that's not what they do. There are SMUs that do that are small and rarely discussed. Sean would probably agree with me on this but may very well have insight that I don't. If he does, he probably can't really discuss that openly.

This is one area where some of the Brits can be awesome - Regiment or Int guys with a lot of Northern Ireland time had to do it solo -- the Aussies and Canadians as well with no Posse Comitatus have some additional abilities due to the Domestic CT role



Solo skillsets are completely different IMO. Hyper-vigilance and technical expression of awareness, spatial relationships, verbal agility, initiative, geometry, and decision making trump marksmanship as far as priority.


These aren't things you generally learn on ranges.

.
Agreed.

Looking forward to your comments.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

From the perspective of the FOG consumer of courses - I opine that the basic package should be:

1. Solid basics of gun usage - with a realistic carry gun.
2. Solid exposure to the legal issues and mindset
3. A well thought out and refereed FOF experience. This should include not just a shoot'em up but avoidance, dealing with the aftermath and associated things that happen in a critical incident

That's the minor in civilian SD usage

For the major:

1. Low light
2. First aid
3. Retention and H2H
4. More advanced gun utilization skills to increase speed and accuracy.

Electives:

1. If you claim you will use a long arm to defense the castle: Long arm training (not advanced shotgun racking to scare aware folks :p)
2. Things related to cars
3. If you can afford it and go - try something like Given's conference or the old NTI.
4. If you end up carrying a mouse gun in your pocket or a snubby - train with that too and shoot it.
5. Knife class

Then - practice - pragmatically, repeat courses are expensive - so most probably would go with some competition venue (not for 'tactics') but to keep handling skills up.

As far as whom I've trained (or been in classes) with:
Mas, Insights crew, Givens, Spaulding, KRtraining (Karl - has an integrated and affordable course sequence that would easily take one through the curriculum, esp. with the guest instructors added to his AT sequence), Moses, Gomez, Stanford, Givens' conference - various folks, Claude Werner for snubby - might have missed someone. I have found all these to be informative and a good learning experience. No commandos or nuts.

There is one trainer I won't mention who is a putz. No need to be nasty.

So, I would tell folks who aren't truly into - do at least do the minor. It is hard to get folks to do that though.

[Dagga Boy]

"There is one trainer I won't mention who is a putz. No need to be nasty."

I have been called far worse. Go ahead, it won't hurt my feelings;).

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Not you! Haha!

[SouthNarc]

Just for clarity are we discussing what the average CCW'er can and will do or an ideal to strive for then work our way down?

[Jared]

Personally, when it comes to CCW tactics, the topics that interest me the most are 1: How to spot that something is about to happen early, and before you're too far behind the curve, 2: How to get out from behind the curve if you fail to spot the threat early enough, 3: De-escalation, 4: How to avoid being targeted in the first place (or getting deselected as I've seen it called), 5: How to interact with responding LE, 6: Making sure that if you have to shoot, that it's justified.

These are in no particular order, just off the top of my head concerns that interest me greatly.

[GJM]

Exclude mil and LE training for this discussion.

Beyond technical shooting training, I am interested in discussing what tactical training the typical CCW gun owner should have. Source of the training, duration of the training, frequency of recurrent training, etc.


Just for clarity are we discussing what the average CCW'er can and will do or an ideal to strive for then work our way down?

Fair question, and my initial question may have been ambiguous.

I would say both. What is the basic level of tactical training that a typical CCW holder should have, and what is an ideal level of training the more motivated CCW holder should strive for?

[Mr_White]

Just for clarity are we discussing what the average CCW'er can and will do or an ideal to strive for then work our way down?

Not sure, answers are covering different ground from different angles. FWIW, my answer was kind of 'start with the core, progress beyond it.' I did interpret the thread as focusing on tactics and was trying to limit my answer to that, though I see a lot of others' answering much more expansively.

[JM Campbell]

Just for clarity are we discussing what the average CCW'er can and will do or an ideal to strive for then work our way down?

I took it as what a ccw/p-fer should strive for.

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[SouthNarc]

Personally, when it comes to CCW tactics, the topics that interest me the most are 1: How to spot that something is about to happen early, and before you're too far behind the curve, 2: How to get out from behind the curve if you fail to spot the threat early enough, 3: De-escalation, 4: How to avoid being targeted in the first place (or getting deselected as I've seen it called), 5: How to interact with responding LE, 6: Making sure that if you have to shoot, that it's justified.

These are in no particular order, just off the top of my head concerns that interest me greatly.



Jared I think that's a FANTASTIC list and agree.

2 questions:

1) Do you know if that kind of training is available and who do you get it from?
2) Is that kind of training done on a range in live-fire?

[Ray Keith]

I find this difficult to articulate but here goes... From my prospective of student/teacher(no SME by any means) and from experience with victims, witnesses and perps in a legal context, whether it is part of mindset or some other category, the average CCW student/holder needs to understand the "reality" of a violent assault. Most of the people in the above contexts I encounter don't have any concept of the likelihood of being assaulted (this can never happen to me coupled with "why would anyone want to hurt me"), the speed it happens (see Givens: "itallhappenedsofasthecameoutofnowhereIdidntgetagoo dlookathim"), and the unrealistic nature of their expectation of what they could or would do in the event it happened-mainly going to get things and the leisurely pace that they think it will all happen.

One other area is dispelling the magic talisman effect that CCW imparts to some people-that they are rendered safe by carrying a gun or worse "I just want it for my car". They are then fully intoxicated with the idea that they can go violate Farnham's Rule of 3 Stupids with impunity.

My experience with some of my customers that truly qualify as apex predators, is that they really couldn't care less that Joe Public might be carrying, and are only moderately concerned about the average police officer being armed. The average street criminal I have dealt with cares that Joe Public might be carrying in the abstract, but in the moment are more concerned with what appears to be an easy take.

[Jared]

Jared I think that's a FANTASTIC list and agree.

2 questions:

1) Do you know if that kind of training is available and who do you get it from?
2) Is that kind of training done on a range in live-fire?

SouthNarc,

1) I've heard you recommended numerous times for large parts of what I mentioned, as well as some others.
2) I think some of it would be, but an awful lot of it likely wouldn't.

I LOVE shooting. I'm a gun gamer as well as being interested in the defensive aspect of firearms use. Those things I mentioned, they aren't something that I believe can be measured with a timer and a scoresheet. So, as much as I love my USPSA shooting, I do believe there's more than that to a CCW/ Home Owner looking to defend him/herself.

[David S.]

I'll play. I claim no expertise in the matter, just some doode that likes to shoot guns and talk about shooting guns. I am certainly open to suggestions if I'm full of crap. I think that the average CCW'er needs to start with a solid, broad basis in general education. Then move on to specific tactics (low light, etc.) and then finally focused marksmanship (AFHF).

So with that in mind I'll lay out the intended training I've set up for my wife and I. She is not a shooter yet, but has shown interest.

Gen Ed (In approximate order)
1. Local CHL class.
2. Kathy Jackson's Cornered Cat class.
3. Tom Given's Combative Pistol I.
4. Local First Responder/CERT class.
5. Massad Ayoob MAG-20 or -40.
6. SouthNarc ECQC.
7. Appleseed Project (basic rifle course)

Beyond that we can start focusing on more specific tactics. (now in no particular order)
- SouthNarc AMIS, VCAST, EWO (or similar)
- Andrew Branca Laws of Self Defense (or similar)
- General carbine class (PSC or similar)
- Medical/GSW training (Dark Angel Medical or similar)

[RJ]

Personally, when it comes to CCW tactics, the topics that interest me the most are 1: How to spot that something is about to happen early, and before you're too far behind the curve, 2: How to get out from behind the curve if you fail to spot the threat early enough, 3: De-escalation, 4: How to avoid being targeted in the first place (or getting deselected as I've seen it called), 5: How to interact with responding LE, 6: Making sure that if you have to shoot, that it's justified.

These are in no particular order, just off the top of my head concerns that interest me greatly.

As a new shooter with 0 experience, I've been reading this thread with interest.

It struck me though, that the above list made a lot of sense, and these topics really resonated with me.

A Club near me offers a 'Personal Protection in the home" course my wife and I have been kicking around going to. I'll go re read the syllabus, feeling more informed for having ya'll share your thoughts here.

Genuine thanks for doing so.

Rich in Tampa

[Salamander]

A few random observations:

The realities of a busy professional life are that while I'm at the range at least once a week (when not on business travel), formal training is harder to do frequently. There are the same few local guys, only one of whom I consider to be reasonably competent. Realistically, I usually need to travel to get a serious class.

Related to the above, there seem to be relatively few higher-end training opportunities in northern California. I'm willing to travel when I can, up to a point, but it's hard for me to recommend to the average CCW guy that he get on an airplane and hassle with TSA in addition to class costs and trying to figure out how to get ammo on the other end.

Situational awareness skills are astonishingly scarce up here, at least in the human encounter sense. Plenty of guys who are good in the woods, lifelong hunters or woodsmen, but urban skills... well, they're best acquired in urban areas. Up here four hours drive from anywhere big, I'm frequently amazed when somebody walks behind my parked car just as I put it in reverse, and never even notices. So the folks here need classes in something I learned before age five in inner city Chicago. I'm assuming there are other things some of them could teach me. My point is that geography and experience and cultural background affect what one "knows."

Many of us on P-F perhaps assume some level of physical competence, and I completely agree that it's helpful in many potential encounters. The sad reality is that some of the guys at my local range are pretty fair shots at a static target but are over 65 and have trouble getting into their pickup truck at the end of the night. So, how do we train for those guys relative to someone younger and more agile and flexible?

[HCM]

I find this difficult to articulate but here goes... From my prospective of student/teacher(no SME by any means) and from experience with victims, witnesses and perps in a legal context, whether it is part of mindset or some other category, the average CCW student/holder needs to understand the "reality" of a violent assault. Most of the people in the above contexts I encounter don't have any concept of the likelihood of being assaulted (this can never happen to me coupled with "why would anyone want to hurt me"), the speed it happens (see Givens: "itallhappenedsofasthecameoutofnowhereIdidntgetagoo dlookathim"), and the unrealistic nature of their expectation of what they could or would do in the event it happened-mainly going to get things and the leisurely pace that they think it will all happen.

One other area is dispelling the magic talisman effect that CCW imparts to some people-that they are rendered safe by carrying a gun or worse "I just want it for my car". They are then fully intoxicated with the idea that they can go violate Farnham's Rule of 3 Stupids with impunity.

My experience with some of my customers that truly qualify as apex predators, is that they really couldn't care less that Joe Public might be carrying, and are only moderately concerned about the average police officer being armed. The average street criminal I have dealt with cares that Joe Public might be carrying in the abstract, but in the moment are more concerned with what appears to be an easy take.

Based on my nearly 20 years as an LEO, you sir, nailed it. This is the foundation for everything else.

The Ballistic Radio podcasts featuring Southnarc and Dr. William April provide a great intro to these concepts and i recommended them to family and friends who ask about self defense and getting a gun/ CHL.

[HopetonBrown]

there seem to be relatively few higher-end training opportunities in northern California.

I respectfully disagree. Between San Jose and Sacramento these instructors have been in Northern California in the past 18 months. It's a bit of an "all star" cast, really.

Ken Hackathorn
Larry Vickers
Bob Vogel
Rob Haught
Mike Pannone
Frank Proctor
Louis Awerbuck (RIP)
Mike Seeklander
Chris Costa
Travis Haley

Louis Awerbuck taught for years at Reed's in Santa Clara, California, which is an hour south from San Francisco. Mike Lamb is a well respected instructor who regularly teaches out in San Jose. Southnarc has upcoming classes in Sacramento and San Francisco.

[RJ]

I thought about this a bit, and would like to offer a prospective Student's point of view of what I'd like to see in a CCW.

Warning: I am not .mil, LE, or that familiar with guns. But I've spent 30+ years as a contractor in the Aerospace area, designing and building training systems for major DoD and international customers. By education I am a EE, my job title says Systems Engineer.

Rich in Tampa

CONCEALED CARRY TRAINING 101

At the end of this Course, a motivated citizen with minimal training, who is familiar with their CCW, and has an interest in better understanding of the responsibilities that come with Concealed Carry, will be able to:

(A) Knowledge

Understand how and when to employ a CCW and its implications

(B) Skills

Safely Demonstrate proficiency with their CCW

SYLLABUS

<MORNING>

Class Overview Segment

Introductions
What do you expect to achieve out of this class?
Review Course Syllabus

Safety and Equipment Segment

Being confident in your carry Equipment
Carry options (holster, purse, backpack, vehicle, RV)
Why SD ammo is not Target ammo
Practical carry methods demonstration

Everyday life while carrying Segment

Situational awareness
What do you do when legally stopped by a LEO (example: speeding)
Concealed carry in a parked RV
How to avoid using your CCW in the first place

Understanding a typical CCW encounter Segment

Verbal commands - Do you say anything? What?
Can you display your CCW and not shoot?
When to reveal your CCW - How (and when) do you physically transition from concealed to finger on trigger?
When do you stop shooting?
Dealing with multiple threats?
When and how do you reholster?
Using Cover and concealment
Rendering first aid for the person you just shot
What does a LEO arriving on scene want you to do?

Legal and Social Issues Segment

Transitioning from the gunfight back to 'normalcy' - how do you do that?
Dealing with the psychological aftermath of taking a life
Long term effects on finances, family
Dealing with the legal system
Finding a good attorney

<LUNCH>

OPTIONAL LUNCH SEGMENT: Equipment options - Use students 'actual' equipment and discuss options / suggested changes.

<AFTERNOON>

Practical Shooting Skills Segment

Skills and Drills to reinforce the above
Give students a Practice program to follow the drills
Followed by sufficient range time on all of the above

Conclusion and wrap up Segment

Review Objectives
Q&A Session
Commitment to more training

[RJ]

The Ballistic Radio podcasts featuring Southnarc and Dr. William April provide a great intro to these concepts and i recommended them to family and friends who ask about self defense and getting a gun/ CHL.

Thanks for the tip. I added these podcasts to my feed.

Rich

[LittleLebowski]

Thanks for the tip. I added these podcasts to my feed.

Rich

Grab the Sean M one as well: http://ballisticradio.com/2013/05/06/podcast-ballistic-radio-episode-9-may-5-2013/

[MVS]

I started teaching in 2010 because I saw patterns in the firearms training industry that I didn't like. I hoped that I could do the shooters one better than I'd been seeing.

I didn't like dogmatic instruction, I didn't like lots of down time and long lunches, and I didn't like low round counts and a slow tempo when it was time to shoot. I didn't like irrelevant war stories or trash-talking other instructors in the industry. I didn't like hero-worship from student cliques, and I didn't like very specialized techniques and tactics thoughtlessly pawned off as great for general consumption. I didn't like the complete inability of most shooting instructors to properly diagnose shooting. I didn't like students playing dress-up and screwing around when I was trying to learn. And I really didn't like when instructors seemed to just "phone it in".

So I decided to do my best to effect change.

The tactics, techniques, and procedures I teach are rooted in analysis of proven military, law enforcement, and competition methods. I run all of this material through a filter to give people everything they need and nothing they don't.

I use a systematic approach to training: I design and develop my clinics and courses from the best available information and tailor them to the responsible armed citizen. I strive to continually evaluate the implementation of my programs to ensure that I'm responsive to student needs and current events. My goal is to provide armed citizens with the necessary tools to prevail against a lethal threat in the everyday world. I start with training the fundamentals, then move to training the middle of the statistical bell curve for civilian armed encounters, then move to training for outliers on that bell curve. To supplement the full coursework, I run half day clinics to provide high intensity training for experienced shooters, as well as development opportunities for newer shooters.

Tom Givens does a huge amount of it right. Craig Douglas does a huge amount of it right. Pat Goodale's Practical Firearms Training does a huge amount of it right. Others have pieces parts which are very, very good.

Jay, I agree with a lot of what you are saying here. Looking at your training resume on your website I wonder if some of those classes you took are the things that caused you to feel this way, or if some of them were your correction? If none of these classes were what got you around to your current point of view, how did you get from A to B and what makes what you are doing different from the things you said you didn't like? Did you just make the new stuff up? I am not criticizing as your training history does not look all that different from mine and my thoughts have definitely evolved.

[MVS]

As a new shooter with 0 experience, I've been reading this thread with interest.

It struck me though, that the above list made a lot of sense, and these topics really resonated with me.

A Club near me offers a 'Personal Protection in the home" course my wife and I have been kicking around going to. I'll go re read the syllabus, feeling more informed for having ya'll share your thoughts here.

Genuine thanks for doing so.

Rich in Tampa

Can I assume the class you are talking about is NRA? This is funny from a labeling and common sense perspective, but that class is required to get your CPL (Concealed Pistol License) in MI. If you are truly new to handguns, it might not be a bad place to start. If not, it will probably frustrate you greatly. My takeaway from the class was them insinuating that no matter what the circumstances were, if you had to shoot someone it was going to cost you millions of dollars and ruin your life. That can vary somewhat by the instructor but the NRA is pretty rigid in its syllabus.

[Dagga Boy]

I respectfully disagree. Between San Jose and Sacramento these instructors have been in Northern California in the past 18 months. It's a bit of an "all star" cast, really.

Ken Hackathorn
Larry Vickers
Bob Vogel
Rob Haught
Mike Pannone
Frank Proctor
Louis Awerbuck (RIP)
Mike Seeklander
Chris Costa
Travis Haley

Louis Awerbuck taught for years at Reed's in Santa Clara, California, which is an hour south from San Francisco. Mike Lamb is a well respected instructor who regularly teaches out in San Jose. Southnarc has upcoming classes in Sacramento and San Francisco.

Don't take this wrong, as most of that list are friends, and I have trained with most of them. There will not be a ton of what the typical CCW holder needs as far as situational awareness, threat assessment, appropriate use of force, high level discretionary shooting, not shooting, discussions on what is going to happen post shooting and how to deal with L/E, including how to not get shot by responding LE, etc. That is not in anyway shape or form a ding at those instructors as they are generally there to teach the shooting part of the process and is what they are in demand for. The reality is that most folks are using the gun store, internet and TV for their CCW force training and there is not much as far as neat and cool factor in teaching a lot of what I listed above.

With all that said, if I lived in Norcal, I would be training with Mike Lamb a lot. He is very under-rated and is one of the genius minds in our community. Driving to SoCal for Scott Reitz would also be a regular thing.

The big issue is that there are a bunch of folks out there who are very knowledgeable on many of these subjects (including some of those on the list above). They just aren't very in demand for classes and a lot of folks are far more interested in going to classes for how to shoot better and not how to avoid shooting at all, and if you have to how to be "right".

[MVS]

.
I was basing my response more to the PF Crowd - as a baseline -- not to the national average. I believe a number of folks here take classes regularly (1/month, or 1 every 2 months), and shoot at least 1/week.

..

That would be great, but I feel you are being wonderfully optimistic. I have been to a number of good (and not so good) forums, and even worked and moderated at one that was started just to push the training company, and have never seen numbers that were in reality that high. Yes I am new to posting here, but have been following since I took one of Todd's classes in 2011 and if the numbers were really that high among the majority it would really surprise me.

[RJ]

Can I assume the class you are talking about is NRA? This is funny from a labeling and common sense perspective, but that class is required to get your CPL (Concealed Pistol License) in MI. If you are truly new to handguns, it might not be a bad place to start. If not, it will probably frustrate you greatly. My takeaway from the class was them insinuating that no matter what the circumstances were, if you had to shoot someone it was going to cost you millions of dollars and ruin your life. That can vary somewhat by the instructor but the NRA is pretty rigid in its syllabus.

Yes, I believe it is an NRA course: (Copy/paste is from the outside the home class, but they also offer an inside home one.)

http://www.wyomingantelopeclub.org/training-classes/

"NRA Personal Protection outside of the home

An NRA course teaches students the knowledge, skills and attitude essential for avoiding dangerous confrontations and for the safe, effective and responsible use of a concealed pistol for self-defense outside the home. Students have the opportunity to attend this course using a quality strong side hip holster that covers the trigger, or a holster purse. From a review of safe firearms handling and proper mindset to presentation from concealment and multiple shooting positions, this course contains the essential skills and techniques needed to prevail in a life-threatening situation. A Florida licensed attorney will present the legal issues effecting firearms ownership, use and personal defense. The NRA Personal Protection outside the Home course presented at the WAC includes both basic and advanced level certifications. Class size is limited.

Cost $225.00"

[Jay Cunningham]

Jay, I agree with a lot of what you are saying here. Looking at your training resume on your website I wonder if some of those classes you took are the things that caused you to feel this way, or if some of them were your correction? If none of these classes were what got you around to your current point of view, how did you get from A to B and what makes what you are doing different from the things you said you didn't like? Did you just make the new stuff up? I am not criticizing as your training history does not look all that different from mine and my thoughts have definitely evolved.

A good and fair question; I'll do my best to answer.

First I'm going to post the subject from the OP, just to refer to so I don't go too far off the rails.



Tactical training for the CCW holder

Exclude mil and LE training for this discussion. Beyond technical shooting training, I am interested in discussing what tactical training the typical CCW gun owner should have. Source of the training, duration of the training, frequency of recurrent training, etc.

Next I'll address your post.



Looking at your training resume on your website I wonder if some of those classes you took are the things that caused you to feel this way, or if some of them were your correction?

Both. I think it's fair to say that the later coursework I chose was a correction for the earlier coursework. That doesn't mean that all the early work was bad or wrong.



If none of these classes were what got you around to your current point of view, how did you get from A to B and what makes what you are doing different from the things you said you didn't like?

Many of these classes got me to my current point-of-view, but also my experiences as a host, my time spent as a moderator and staff on popular related forums, and personal relationships with many of the players off the gun range. Now, what am I doing different from the things I said I didn't like? (great question BTW)

didn't like dogmatic instruction - Dogmatic instructors lack the ability (or desire) to think critically. They may be very polished presenters, but the material they present is not their material. They may be able to answer a lot of "why" questions, but only if those "why" questions had already been addressed by the instructor or group which they devote their loyalty to. They can't deviate from the script and they won't look at their own material with a critical eye. I've had hundreds of hours of relevant instruction from over 20 different instructors of varying backgrounds. Everything I see, I evaluate for both my own needs and the needs of my students. If I can't answer a question, if I can't say "I like this and here's why" or "I don't like this and here's why", I need to revaluate what I'm presenting.

lots of down time and long lunches - Proper flow of material and reasonable class size and instructor-to-student ratio largely deals with this... 26 people in a class with one instructor means lots of down time. I strive to maintain a 1:5 instructor-to-student ratio, and generally cap my classes at 10 people. An hour for lunch is more than enough.

low round counts and a slow tempo when it was time to shoot - I've been fed the lie that an elevated round count always means you're just hosing down the berm. Well, just like anything else, it depends. A relatively low round count can indeed be appropriate. But sometimes it's just because the instructor does not have a high energy level. There is plenty of justification for higher round counts, and higher round counts still mean accountability for accuracy. I keep an eye on the class and provide accurate round counts in my course descriptions. I control my pacing so that fatigue doesn't ruin performance. Sometimes it is very helpful to get the guns hot.

irrelevant war stories - I don't have any war stories, so I can't distract anyone with this. Some war stories are very relevant, but many are worthless.

trash-talking other instructors in the industry - This one is really bad. Other instructors do come up, it's inevitable. But I do my absolute utmost to not gossip about other instructors or bash them. It's unprofessional.

hero-worship from student cliques - This is another bad one, and it's everywhere. Most people have no idea what makes for a good instructor. You need a lot of experience with different instructors and it helps to have a background in instructing yourself (doesn't need to be gunslinger stuff) AND you need to be able to think critically. It takes a long time and lots of experience to figure out what good, relevant instruction looks like. I don't subscribe to any one philosophy and I sure as hell know my students don't worship me!

very specialized techniques and tactics thoughtlessly pawned off as great for general consumption - This may be my biggest personal gripe and it's facilitated by students having no idea what right looks like. It's also facilitated by instructors who are unable (or unwilling) to step out of their own experiences and look critically at their students. Much of this has been touched on already in this thread... team tactics and variations of team tactics taught to armed citizens who will never, ever work as part of a team is a bad one. Shooting-on-the-move as it is both taught and emphasized by certain trainers is hideously wrong, as is one man movement inside structures, especially when coupled with light employment. While carbines should only make up a small portion of one's training, it still should be trained right; however this is typically where the biggest fantasy LARPing comes into play. I don't have the bias of military or LE background, so I can sit and objectively look at things and say "this is applicable to me as a civilian" or "this is not applicable to me as a civilian", and I do my best to present that to my students, who are also my (less experienced) peers.

complete inability of most shooting instructors to properly diagnose shooting - Once again, students have no idea what right looks like. It took lots of instruction from lots of different guys to finally realize that some truly know what they're looking at and can troubleshoot. Not to nut-dangle, but Todd's ability to troubleshoot and diagnose individual shooter issues impressed me. I decided that if I ever wanted to try and teach people, that I'd commit to learn how to properly troubleshoot.

students playing dress-up and screwing around when I was trying to learn - This goes back to the LARPing thing, usually worst in carbine classes. I'm not talking about being a hipster, but an IT guy who's in full Crye gear with chest rig and drop holster is so silly it's almost distracting, especially if they're otherwise inept. I want people to wear normal clothing and not get all worked up about gear. I don't care if you have a warbelt or chest rig to carry a bunch of extra shit, just don't wear it as part of a classtume. Large class sizes and student cliques can also lead to a lot of Cokeing and Joking on the line. AIs can help with this.

instructors seemed to just "phone it in" - This goes back I think to low energy level and also instructor ego. Some instructors seem to act like they're doing the student a favor taking their money and just showing up. I try to keep my energy level high and pour my heart into what I'm doing.



Did you just make the new stuff up?

Generally, no. But I did (and continue to do) a lot of trial-and-error, a lot of critical thinking, and a lot of arguing with assistant instructors to see if we can validate a point and then defend it. Most stuff has already been invented anyway... we either steal it or "rediscover" it!


As a final note, I think that The Rangemaster Tactical Conference is an incredibly valuable resource for the average armed citizen. There are a lot of smart guys there talking about a lot of smart guy stuff.

[LittleLebowski]

A good and fair question; I'll do my best to answer.

First I'm going to post the subject from the OP, just to refer to so I don't go too far off the rails.




Next I'll address your post.




Both. I think it's fair to say that the later coursework I chose was a correction for the earlier coursework. That doesn't mean that all the early work was bad or wrong.




Many of these classes got me to my current point-of-view, but also my experiences as a host, my time spent as a moderator and staff on popular related forums, and personal relationships with many of the players off the gun range. Now, what am I doing different from the things I said I didn't like? (great question BTW)

didn't like dogmatic instruction - Dogmatic instructors lack the ability (or desire) to think critically. They may be very polished presenters, but the material they present is not their material. They may be able to answer a lot of "why" questions, but only if those "why" questions had already been addressed by the instructor or group which they devote their loyalty to. They can't deviate from the script and they won't look at their own material with a critical eye. I've had hundreds of hours of relevant instruction from over 20 different instructors of varying backgrounds. Everything I see, I evaluate for both my own needs and the needs of my students. If I can't answer a question, if I can't say "I like this and here's why" or "I don't like this and here's why", I need to revaluate what I'm presenting.

lots of down time and long lunches - Proper flow of material and reasonable class size and instructor-to-student ratio largely deals with this... 26 people in a class with one instructor means lots of down time. I strive to maintain a 1:5 instructor-to-student ratio, and generally cap my classes at 10 people. An hour for lunch is more than enough.

low round counts and a slow tempo when it was time to shoot - I've been fed the lie that an elevated round count always means you're just hosing down the berm. Well, just like anything else, it depends. A relatively low round count can indeed be appropriate. But sometimes it's just because the instructor does not have a high energy level. There is plenty of justification for higher round counts, and higher round counts still mean accountability for accuracy. I keep an eye on the class and provide accurate round counts in my course descriptions. I control my pacing so that fatigue doesn't ruin performance. Sometimes it is very helpful to get the guns hot.

irrelevant war stories - I don't have any war stories, so I can't distract anyone with this. Some war stories are very relevant, but many are worthless.

trash-talking other instructors in the industry - This one is really bad. Other instructors do come up, it's inevitable. But I do my absolute utmost to not gossip about other instructors or bash them. It's unprofessional.

hero-worship from student cliques - This is another bad one, and it's everywhere. Most people have no idea what makes for a good instructor. You need a lot of experience with different instructors and it helps to have a background in instructing yourself (doesn't need to be gunslinger stuff) AND you need to be able to think critically. It takes a long time and lots of experience to figure out what good, relevant instruction looks like. I don't subscribe to any one philosophy and I sure as hell know my students don't worship me!

very specialized techniques and tactics thoughtlessly pawned off as great for general consumption - This may be my biggest personal gripe and it's facilitated by students having no idea what right looks like. It's also facilitated by instructors who are unable (or unwilling) to step out of their own experiences and look critically at their students. Much of this has been touched on already in this thread... team tactics and variations of team tactics taught to armed citizens who will never, ever work as part of a team is a bad one. Shooting-on-the-move as it is both taught and emphasized by certain trainers is hideously wrong, as is one man movement inside structures, especially when coupled with light employment. While carbines should only make up a small portion of one's training, it still should be trained right; however this is typically where the biggest fantasy LARPing comes into play. I don't have the bias of military or LE background, so I can sit and objectively look at things and say "this is applicable to me as a civilian" or "this is not applicable to me as a civilian", and I do my best to present that to my students, who are also my (less experienced) peers.

complete inability of most shooting instructors to properly diagnose shooting - Once again, students have no idea what right looks like. It took lots of instruction from lots of different guys to finally realize that some truly know what they're looking at and can troubleshoot. Not to nut-dangle, but Todd's ability to troubleshoot and diagnose individual shooter issues impressed me. I decided that if I ever wanted to try and teach people, that I'd commit to learn how to properly troubleshoot.

students playing dress-up and screwing around when I was trying to learn - This goes back to the LARPing thing, usually worst in carbine classes. I'm not talking about being a hipster, but an IT guy who's in full Crye gear with chest rig and drop holster is so silly it's almost distracting, especially if they're otherwise inept. I want people to wear normal clothing and not get all worked up about gear. I don't care if you have a warbelt or chest rig to carry a bunch of extra shit, just don't wear it as part of a classtume. Large class sizes and student cliques can also lead to a lot of Cokeing and Joking on the line. AIs can help with this.

instructors seemed to just "phone it in" - This goes back I think to low energy level and also instructor ego. Some instructors seem to act like they're doing the student a favor taking their money and just showing up. I try to keep my energy level high and pour my heart into what I'm doing.




Generally, no. But I did (and continue to do) a lot of trial-and-error, a lot of critical thinking, and a lot of arguing with assistant instructors to see if we can validate a point and then defend it. Most stuff has already been invented anyway... we either steal it or "rediscover" it!


As a final note, I think that The Rangemaster Tactical Conference is an incredibly valuable resource for the average armed citizen. There are a lot of smart guys there talking about a lot of smart guy stuff.

Excellent.

[MVS]

A good and fair question; I'll do my best to answer.

First I'm going to post the subject from the OP, just to refer to so I don't go too far off the rails.




Next I'll address your post.




Both. I think it's fair to say that the later coursework I chose was a correction for the earlier coursework. That doesn't mean that all the early work was bad or wrong.




Many of these classes got me to my current point-of-view, but also my experiences as a host, my time spent as a moderator and staff on popular related forums, and personal relationships with many of the players off the gun range. Now, what am I doing different from the things I said I didn't like? (great question BTW)

didn't like dogmatic instruction - Dogmatic instructors lack the ability (or desire) to think critically. They may be very polished presenters, but the material they present is not their material. They may be able to answer a lot of "why" questions, but only if those "why" questions had already been addressed by the instructor or group which they devote their loyalty to. They can't deviate from the script and they won't look at their own material with a critical eye. I've had hundreds of hours of relevant instruction from over 20 different instructors of varying backgrounds. Everything I see, I evaluate for both my own needs and the needs of my students. If I can't answer a question, if I can't say "I like this and here's why" or "I don't like this and here's why", I need to revaluate what I'm presenting.

lots of down time and long lunches - Proper flow of material and reasonable class size and instructor-to-student ratio largely deals with this... 26 people in a class with one instructor means lots of down time. I strive to maintain a 1:5 instructor-to-student ratio, and generally cap my classes at 10 people. An hour for lunch is more than enough.

low round counts and a slow tempo when it was time to shoot - I've been fed the lie that an elevated round count always means you're just hosing down the berm. Well, just like anything else, it depends. A relatively low round count can indeed be appropriate. But sometimes it's just because the instructor does not have a high energy level. There is plenty of justification for higher round counts, and higher round counts still mean accountability for accuracy. I keep an eye on the class and provide accurate round counts in my course descriptions. I control my pacing so that fatigue doesn't ruin performance. Sometimes it is very helpful to get the guns hot.

irrelevant war stories - I don't have any war stories, so I can't distract anyone with this. Some war stories are very relevant, but many are worthless.

trash-talking other instructors in the industry - This one is really bad. Other instructors do come up, it's inevitable. But I do my absolute utmost to not gossip about other instructors or bash them. It's unprofessional.

hero-worship from student cliques - This is another bad one, and it's everywhere. Most people have no idea what makes for a good instructor. You need a lot of experience with different instructors and it helps to have a background in instructing yourself (doesn't need to be gunslinger stuff) AND you need to be able to think critically. It takes a long time and lots of experience to figure out what good, relevant instruction looks like. I don't subscribe to any one philosophy and I sure as hell know my students don't worship me!

very specialized techniques and tactics thoughtlessly pawned off as great for general consumption - This may be my biggest personal gripe and it's facilitated by students having no idea what right looks like. It's also facilitated by instructors who are unable (or unwilling) to step out of their own experiences and look critically at their students. Much of this has been touched on already in this thread... team tactics and variations of team tactics taught to armed citizens who will never, ever work as part of a team is a bad one. Shooting-on-the-move as it is both taught and emphasized by certain trainers is hideously wrong, as is one man movement inside structures, especially when coupled with light employment. While carbines should only make up a small portion of one's training, it still should be trained right; however this is typically where the biggest fantasy LARPing comes into play. I don't have the bias of military or LE background, so I can sit and objectively look at things and say "this is applicable to me as a civilian" or "this is not applicable to me as a civilian", and I do my best to present that to my students, who are also my (less experienced) peers.

complete inability of most shooting instructors to properly diagnose shooting - Once again, students have no idea what right looks like. It took lots of instruction from lots of different guys to finally realize that some truly know what they're looking at and can troubleshoot. Not to nut-dangle, but Todd's ability to troubleshoot and diagnose individual shooter issues impressed me. I decided that if I ever wanted to try and teach people, that I'd commit to learn how to properly troubleshoot.

students playing dress-up and screwing around when I was trying to learn - This goes back to the LARPing thing, usually worst in carbine classes. I'm not talking about being a hipster, but an IT guy who's in full Crye gear with chest rig and drop holster is so silly it's almost distracting, especially if they're otherwise inept. I want people to wear normal clothing and not get all worked up about gear. I don't care if you have a warbelt or chest rig to carry a bunch of extra shit, just don't wear it as part of your classtume. Large class sizes and student cliques can also lead to a lot of Cokeing and Joking on the line. AIs can help with this.

instructors seemed to just "phone it in" - This goes back I think to low energy level and also instructor ego. Some instructors seem to act like they're doing the student a favor taking their money and just showing up. I try to keep my energy level high and pour my heart into what I'm doing.




Generally, no. But I did (and continue to do) a lot of trial-and-error, a lot of critical thinking, and a lot of arguing with assistant instructors to see if we can validate a point and then defend it. Most stuff has already been invented anyway... we either steal it or "rediscover" it!


As a final note, I think that The Rangemaster Tactical Conference is an incredibly valuable resource for the average armed citizen. There are a lot of smart guys there talking about a lot of smart guy stuff.

Wow, talk about a lot of parallels. I totally get where you are coming from. Thanks for the detailed answer. In case you were interested in why I said we had similar but different class resume. http://paladincombatives.com/mike/

[SouthNarc]

Don't take this wrong, as most of that list are friends, and I have trained with most of them. There will not be a ton of what the typical CCW holder needs as far as situational awareness, threat assessment, appropriate use of force, high level discretionary shooting, not shooting, discussions on what is going to happen post shooting and how to deal with L/E, including how to not get shot by responding LE, etc.

I have an exercise on Sunday of ECQC that covers every bit of that. Out of about 22-23 hrs of training about 6 are spent in live fire expending exactly 275 rounds. The remaining 18 hours or so are H2H, Sim work, role play and full spectrum interactivity underscored with legal accountability.

It's a 2 vs. 1 evolution.

[LittleLebowski]

I have an exercise on Sunday of ECQC that covers every bit of that. Out of about 22-23 hrs of training about 6 are spent in live fire expending exactly 275 rounds. The remaining 18 hours or so are H2H, Sim work, role play and full spectrum interactivity underscored with legal accountability.

It's a 2 vs. 1 evolution.

This really needs to be publicized more. So many CCW holders think of the gun as a magic talisman that will make bad guys go away and make cops buy you dinner after your righteous shoot.

[SouthNarc]

So here's the set-up for the 2 vs 1 evolution. In a full class of 18 it usually takes about 3.5 hours to get everyone through. Everyone not participating is part of "Thunderdome" which is a ring around the participants. So they're watching.

Three people are in the ring wearing FIST helmets one has a Sim gun concealed. He's the focus of the evolution.

When I say "Begin" one of the other two people will begin encroaching towards the gun bearer. So it starts that way every time.

The third person I have physically held by the elbow. They cannot be seen and do not exist to the gun bearer until I actually let go of him. So he's not in play until I release him.

Now where does it go from there? I really don't care. It's not over until I call it regardless of what happens. I may call the exercise without a shot being fired, a gun drawn, or a punch thrown. OR...I may call the exercise with the gun bearer on the ground getting the shit kicked out of him by two dudes and shot with his own gun. It doesn't matter to me and the two people feeding the gun bearer have complete freedom to play it any way they want to.

Common theme:

Gun guy get's encroached by a stranger, overreacts (generally poor verbals) and get's into a fistfight which goes horizontal. I release the second guy who encroaches quickly with an Iphone and says something like "DAMN DOG THIS SHIT IS GOING ON MY YOUTUBE!!!" Gun guy getting punched sees nothing more than the outstreched arm assumes a hostile and shoots iphone bearer.

Gun guy rarely has the composure (because he has no jiu-jitsu) to remain calm, assess the second guy accurately and attempt a verbal strategy along the lines of "DUDE GET THIS FUCKIN' GUY OFF ME HE'S A MUSLIM!!!!" Occasionally he does and guess what? Quite often (within the exercise) it works!

Tip: People love being steered. Someone smarter than me said a long time ago a polite tell goes alot further than a polite ask.

Another common theme:

I say begin and the initial encroacher is bearing down on the gun bearer FAST. The encroacher's head is turned sideways and he's making a high pitched keening sound. Gun guy goes for the pistol or a hand strike right when I let go of the second guy who starts screaming "THAT"S MY BROTHER AND HE'S AUTISTIC YOU FUCKING MORON PUT THE GUN AWAY" Two rapidly bearing strangers, the inability to cycle down emotionally, may very well result in one of them getting shot. OR the second guy get's pissed when he sees the gun and starts cycling up. Gun guy can't put the gun away, realizes what has happened tries to de-escalate because he feels shitty, and get's sucker punched with a gun in his hand. Now gun and and mad brother are fighting over the gun with developmentally disabled kid caterwauling in the background.

Those are two random examples from that exercise I do. Everybody does it and everybody watches everybody else.

Afterward it's debriefed with me following a chronological progression of the decision points. Everybody is encouraged to ask questions and offer input. Once that's done, we switch the gun and do it again until everyone in the trio has been on the gun.

It's pretty exhausting for me personally as I have to be on point for about 3.5 hours non-stop. That being said the value of having an experience without consequence,for the average person who is not in a high risk profession is IMO pretty damn informative.

[David Armstrong]

I'll come at this from a slightly different tack, which is that the type of CCW holder varies significantly so we need to figure out WHO we are talking about before we get into WHAT we should talk about. My training epiphany was when I started doing CHL classes after we approved "shall-issue" permits here. Prior to that most of my students had been dedicated folks who were serious about the art and science of gunfighting. Now many, if not most, of my students won't shoot up a 50-round box of ammo in a year. So I took a cue from training that had to deal with this sort of student in the past, looking at places where there was limited experience or opportunity and seeing how they had handled things. The take-away for me was simple, easy to use and remember actions that focused on building from natural reactions. So for the basic, new CCW:
1. Safe gunhandling, safe gunhandling, safe gunhandling, inncluding carry methods.
2. Situational awareness.
3. Common and likely BG actions in common occurrences (burglary, robbery, mugging, carjacking, etc).
4. Legal issues including after-action events.
5. Target-focus shooting at close range.
6. Proper sight picture for longer distance.

I teach the basics from the perspective that this is the only training the student will get, they will not practice much if any, and that it needs to be generic in regards to equipment, able to cross various platforms and environments. I also try to convince them that this is a very simple introduction and that there is a world of training available to them that will enhance and improve their skills exponentially, but few will ever do that.

[LittleLebowski]

I need more training.

[HopetonBrown]

I will have trained with 8 by the end of the year. I think Louis Awerbuck and Craig Douglas would be at the top of any list with the specific CCW skills you speak of.


Don't take this wrong, as most of that list are friends, and I have trained with most of them. There will not be a ton of what the typical CCW holder needs as far as situational awareness, threat assessment, appropriate use of force, high level discretionary shooting, not shooting, discussions on what is going to happen post shooting and how to deal with L/E, including how to not get shot by responding LE, etc. That is not in anyway shape or form a ding at those instructors as they are generally there to teach the shooting part of the process and is what they are in demand for. The reality is that most folks are using the gun store, internet and TV for their CCW force training and there is not much as far as neat and cool factor in teaching a lot of what I listed above.

With all that said, if I lived in Norcal, I would be training with Mike Lamb a lot. He is very under-rated and is one of the genius minds in our community. Driving to SoCal for Scott Reitz would also be a regular thing.

The big issue is that there are a bunch of folks out there who are very knowledgeable on many of these subjects (including some of those on the list above). They just aren't very in demand for classes and a lot of folks are far more interested in going to classes for how to shoot better and not how to avoid shooting at all, and if you have to how to be "right".

[Mr_White]

So here's the set-up...

I've experienced FOF/scenario training in several different venues as a private citizen, and Craig's execution of that type of training is positively excellent and masterfully conducted. I am sure that everyone in my ECQC class learned a lot about themselves from it.

[Mr_White]

very specialized techniques and tactics thoughtlessly pawned off as great for general consumption - This may be my biggest personal gripe...Shooting-on-the-move as it is both taught and emphasized by certain trainers is hideously wrong...


Jay, can you expand on your thoughts on what is right or wrong with shooting on the move training? If you can offer a few thoughts that's great, if it's too far off the thread topic I'd love it if you could PM me. You and I have had such close agreement on a few points lately that I'm really interested how we are similar or different on this. Thank you!

[Dagga Boy]

I have an exercise on Sunday of ECQC that covers every bit of that. Out of about 22-23 hrs of training about 6 are spent in live fire expending exactly 275 rounds. The remaining 18 hours or so are H2H, Sim work, role play and full spectrum interactivity underscored with legal accountability.

It's a 2 vs. 1 evolution.

Sorry Craig, I was working off the "list" and not the paragraph on the bottom. I tell most of the folks who have never actually had to literally fight for their life for real and on multiple occasions that your class is a "must take" in order to get out of their heads what their "fantasy use of force" scenario is going to look like. While it isn't "real", it is as close as they are likely to get as to how bad things will likely go.

Take this as a compliment: When there are subjects that I know pretty well, have instructed in, and have a pretty deep level of experience in like close quarters combatives, and I recommend to students to go to you rather than do it myself says something about the level of respect I have for your curriculum. Just so your head doesn't swell, I will continue to poke fun at conversations that go-"so dude, I was out MUC'ing when I got into a FUT and had to ECQC with some Jit's" :p.

[Jay Cunningham]

Jay, can you expand on your thoughts on what is right or wrong with shooting on the move training? If you can offer a few thoughts that's great, if it's too far off the thread topic I'd love it if you could PM me. You and I have had such close agreement on a few points lately that I'm really interested how we are similar or different on this. Thank you!

PM sent.

[RJ]

Gah Dayum.

I've learned more in the last few posts about training mindset than the last year of online forums.

I'm definitely going to plan some kind of continuing training element into my future shooting.

Please allow me to continue to sit here and soak this up.

Rich

[SouthNarc]

Take this as a compliment: When there are subjects that I know pretty well, have instructed in, and have a pretty deep level of experience in like close quarters combatives, and I recommend to students to go to you rather than do it myself says something about the level of respect I have for your curriculum. Just so your head doesn't swell, I will continue to poke fun at conversations that go-"so dude, I was out MUC'ing when I got into a FUT and had to ECQC with some Jit's" :p.

No-no I didn't take anything as a slight at all! And PLEASE...keep making fun of me!

Here's something though and I doubt you remember it but I do. Year before last at Tom's place during the instructor dinner when everyone was talking about not having ammo you made a remark about most of what you learned that was actually worthwhile didn't come from a range or any class but experience. I started to follow up on that, but someone interuppted and it was lost.

Darryl I completely agree with that. But as you well know, in our former profession, one single experience can cost you your life.

So IMO opinion, as soon as we can, we should be shifting to a Socratic, andragogical, modality that provides an average person the benefit of our experience without the consequence of actually getting killed, injured, going to jail, killing someone they shouldn't etc., etc. An experiential model that is underscored with ambiguity and uncertainly.

If we are not conducting training around, with, and against living, breathing, thinking, human beings then IMO we're REALLY short-changing ourselves.

In the previous two scenarios I outlined no amount of Dot torture, Hack standards, or Humbler is going to make you better at this stuff. Yet the community fetishizes this to the point where it has become the end state and not a way to get better at a fraction of overall problem solving.

So....I know you understand this. I've been told "People won't pay for that, they want to shoot". Ten years ago I wouldn't have believed that I would be booked a year out teaching people about getting punched in the face and grappling with sims guns either.

I think this stuff needs to be on equal footing with live fire personally. Just my take after a TON of fuck-ups working undercover for two straight years and 19 more on the job.

[Drang]

Yes, I believe it is an NRA course: (Copy/paste is from the outside the home class, but they also offer an inside home one.)

http://www.wyomingantelopeclub.org/training-classes/

"NRA Personal Protection outside of the home
"Outside The Home" is designed to be the next step after "In The Home." I got certified to teach "In The Home" in 2000 (the weekend after retiring from the Army, actually) and at the time there was no "NRA Concealed Carry" class, and no plans to design one. "In The Home" has a section that must be taught by a lawyer or a POST certified LEO. (I've been told that the best classes manage to get both.)
Since most of the population of the US has a reasonable chance of getting a carry permit now, NRA finally designed an Outside The Home class, but it's rare since it requires a significant amount of time to teach it. I haven't even taken it myself, let alone gotten certified to teach it, as there just doesn't seem to be a demand for it around here. (Oddly, the Blue Seattle area has many indoor ranges and clubs with training classes available, including Insights and FAS.)

I understand that there's a more basic "Concealed Carry" class in the works, no details.

The advantage of NRA classes is that they are usually taught by volunteers and thus less expensive; not-bad "101" level classes of their type.
The disadvantage is that they are taught by volunteers, and thus may be spotty in quality.
I enjoy teaching the Home Firearms Safety classes, and assisting with Basic Pistol and PPItH.
I always tell students that this should not be the end of all training they seek.

/pedantic. Carry on.

[Mr Pink]

Beyond technical shooting training
Most people are spending way too much time taking "tactical" classes, when they should be working on “technical shooting”, marksmanship skills and weapons manipulation.


I am interested in discussing what tactical training the typical CCW gun owner should have. Source of the training, duration of the training, frequency of recurrent training, etc. As “technical shooting” skills improve, the majority of "tactical training" I would recommend wouldn't even involve a firearm:

-Mindset
-Situational Awareness (The Gift of Fear)
-Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu
-Krav Maga
-Study Use of Force Laws
-Dry fire (Daily)
-Some form of Competition, IDPA or USPSA. It makes you think! (Once a month)
-Your own range time 2-3 times a month (minimum)

If we look at typical LE and CCW engagements we see a recurrence of improper Target ID and need for better marksmanship training. I’d ensure your training reflects this.

Overall there are a lot of other great responses on here, especially those about de-escalation and knowing when NOT to draw the gun. ECQC has been on my list for many years now and even though I have not taken it, I would still recommend it.

On another note, I would typically agree with most of KevinB’s comments about the SOF community. “It is very different when you are operating on your own, as opposed to a team - the tactics are different.” The SOF community has realized that it’s people often times operate as singletons or in very small numbers. Guys are being sent to “Lone Operator” courses and carrying concealed for Force Protection reasons and it’s not just the SMU’s getting that kind of training.

[Mr_White]

This conversation also inevitably brings of the issues of actual needs vs. desirable capabilities, defining actual needs, and all that abutting up against the finite resources available for training, especially a person's interest and motivation level.

[SouthNarc]

Guys are being sent to “Lone Operator” courses and carrying concealed for Force Protection reasons and it’s not just the SMU’s getting that kind of training.

And I probably should have said historically that's rare, since that mission is expanding and more and more guys are getting into it. That wasn't meant as a slight on troops not assigned to a SMU.

Good friend of mine getting ready to retire just got off a year long gig like that. Interestingly enough he also ran ASO out of a Group OPSDET for a few years and this very issue is one that is near and dear to him. A lack of contextually underscored, relevant training.

[Aray]

Yes, Jay does argue with his AIs.

Southnarc, your desire to do that type of training is spot on. It is lacking in the industry.

[Mr Pink]

And I probably should have said historically that's rare, since that mission is expanding and more and more guys are getting into it. That wasn't meant as a slight on troops not assigned to a SMU.

Good friend of mine getting ready to retire just got off a year long gig like that. Interestingly enough he also ran ASO out of a Group OPSDET for a few years and this very issue is one that is near and dear to him. A lack of contextually underscored, relevant training.
Wouldn't be a guy with the initial R.S.?

[SouthNarc]

Thaaaat would be him!

[RJ]

/pedantic. Carry on.

No worries, received as intended. Appreciate it.

Rich

[Mr Pink]

Thaaaat would be him!and the world just got smaller! He's a good friend

[SouthNarc]

No shit! Dude he was the first guy to get me up to Fayetteville around '06 and we've been training together ever since. Solid, SOLID guy.

[Dagga Boy]

No-no I didn't take anything as a slight at all! And PLEASE...keep making fun of me!

Here's something though and I doubt you remember it but I do. Year before last at Tom's place during the instructor dinner when everyone was talking about not having ammo you made a remark about most of what you learned that was actually worthwhile didn't come from a range or any class but experience. I started to follow up on that, but someone interuppted and it was lost.

Darryl I completely agree with that. But as you well know, in our former profession, one single experience can cost you your life.

So IMO opinion, as soon as we can, we should be shifting to a Socratic, andragogical, modality that provides an average person the benefit of our experience without the consequence of actually getting killed, injured, going to jail, killing someone they shouldn't etc., etc. An experiential model that is underscored with ambiguity and uncertainly.

If we are not conducting training around, with, and against living, breathing, thinking, human beings then IMO we're REALLY short-changing ourselves.

In the previous two scenarios I outlined no amount of Dot torture, Hack standards, or Humbler is going to make you better at this stuff. Yet the community fetishizes this to the point where it has become the end state and not a way to get better at a fraction of overall problem solving.

So....I know you understand this. I've been told "People won't pay for that, they want to shoot". Ten years ago I wouldn't have believed that I would be booked a year out teaching people about getting punched in the face and grappling with sims guns either.

I think this stuff needs to be on equal footing with live fire personally. Just my take after a TON of fuck-ups working undercover for two straight years and 19 more on the job.

SO, while we were having a SAM (Socratic, Andragogical, Modality)............;) It's the advanced MUC/AMIS/FUT/ECQC course....:p You need your pointy shoes for that class:cool:.

Seriously, what we are really paying for in training is the experience of our instructors. That can be in actual incidents with both wins and loses (loses are where learning really occurs), education and study, their combined efforts as a student, life, accomplishments, failures, etc. We are victims of our experiences. That is good for our students, if they can wrap some context around it and think, or at least ask questions of instructors as to the "why's" and applicability to them. This is why I like smaller ratio's of instructors to students, and why Wayne and I like working together......because we double the instructional experience basis.

Let me give a "Southnarc" related example. We essentially work our close quarters solution very similar. It comes from essentially a similar place with just different takes on assignments between Craig, Wayne and I. I had a student ask why we were so different in how we teach it:confused:. I was a little baffled. He said "well, Craig teaches to shoot at a downward angle through the pelvis, and you guys teach to go to the chest". My response was essentially..."Look at Craig, now look at Wayne". We teach to the chest, because we can. Craig is like 4'11 and if he isn't shooting the guys from the Lollipop Guild, then the Pelvis makes perfect sense. I am glad the student asked and it is imperative that students be engaged and expect that their instructors can impart their experience with some relevance to their students. The guy I shot from 2 went down like a sack of potatoes with a perfect crossing chest shot through all the important stuff because my height to his was right for that shot. If he was Steve Fisher size, I would have likely gone for the variation on the response Craig teaches. If your instructors can't answer the why's you are not getting your money's worth. If a technique sounds right but doesn't look like it will work for you, then ask the instructor how to fit it to you. Again, if the response is "My sensei does it this way, so it is the only way for you" or "that is how the one guy I ever took a class from teaches it, so I don't know another way", then you are in the wrong place. I have been to classes for specific reasons with instructors with little in common with me. I have asked some of those questions. I had far more respect for the guys who said "truthfully, I don't really get that cop stuff, so I don't know how it would apply" than the one's who gave some totally made up b.s. answer that is likely to cause an issue.

Students need to be fairly well rounded. I am a "gun guy". I prefer the gun solution. Unfortunately, that does not always work. My last criminal interaction was in my own kitchen wearing board shorts and a t-shirt with an intruder who was heavily intoxicated, younger and bigger than I was, and that was after I had already gone through his companion with a TDHIAW (that is a "throw dude's head into a wall" for those not used to P-F acronyms). My hand to hand skills, and blade training came through without thought. You need the whole package. I had a pistol, but it was not the best option at the time. Thankfully, my time with Steve Tarani paid off in spades and he got a "thank you" call. It is critical for the CCW holder to have a bunch of options as well as a solid understanding of the legal ramifications to use of those options.

Carefully weigh options. Stay balanced. For every class with the NinjaDeltaSEALTier0 guy, you need to offset with something like a Southnarc class, some stuff from Givens, and maybe some LE based stuff. It is how to bake a better cake.

[TElmer2]

SO, while we were having a SAM (Socratic, Andragogical, Modality)............;) It's the advanced MUC/AMIS/FUT/ECQC course....:p You need your pointy shoes for that class:cool:.

Seriously, what we are really paying for in training is the experience of our instructors. That can be in actual incidents with both wins and loses (loses are where learning really occurs), education and study, their combined efforts as a student, life, accomplishments, failures, etc. We are victims of our experiences. That is good for our students, if they can wrap some context around it and think, or at least ask questions of instructors as to the "why's" and applicability to them. This is why I like smaller ratio's of instructors to students, and why Wayne and I like working together......because we double the instructional experience basis.

Let me give a "Southnarc" related example. We essentially work our close quarters solution very similar. It comes from essentially a similar place with just different takes on assignments between Craig, Wayne and I. I had a student ask why we were so different in how we teach it:confused:. I was a little baffled. He said "well, Craig teaches to shoot at a downward angle through the pelvis, and you guys teach to go to the chest". My response was essentially..."Look at Craig, now look at Wayne". We teach to the chest, because we can. Craig is like 4'11 and if he isn't shooting the guys from the Lollipop Guild, then the Pelvis makes perfect sense. I am glad the student asked and it is imperative that students be engaged and expect that their instructors can impart their experience with some relevance to their students. The guy I shot from 2 went down like a sack of potatoes with a perfect crossing chest shot through all the important stuff because my height to his was right for that shot. If he was Steve Fisher size, I would have likely gone for the variation on the response Craig teaches. If your instructors can't answer the why's you are not getting your money's worth. If a technique sounds right but doesn't look like it will work for you, then ask the instructor how to fit it to you. Again, if the response is "My sensei does it this way, so it is the only way for you" or "that is how the one guy I ever took a class from teaches it, so I don't know another way", then you are in the wrong place. I have been to classes for specific reasons with instructors with little in common with me. I have asked some of those questions. I had far more respect for the guys who said "truthfully, I don't really get that cop stuff, so I don't know how it would apply" than the one's who gave some totally made up b.s. answer that is likely to cause an issue.

Students need to be fairly well rounded. I am a "gun guy". I prefer the gun solution. Unfortunately, that does not always work. My last criminal interaction was in my own kitchen wearing board shorts and a t-shirt with an intruder who was heavily intoxicated, younger and bigger than I was, and that was after I had already gone through his companion with a TDHIAW (that is a "throw dude's head into a wall" for those not used to P-F acronyms). My hand to hand skills, and blade training came through without thought. You need the whole package. I had a pistol, but it was not the best option at the time. Thankfully, my time with Steve Tarani paid off in spades and he got a "thank you" call. It is critical for the CCW holder to have a bunch of options as well as a solid understanding of the legal ramifications to use of those options.

Carefully weigh options. Stay balanced. For every class with the NinjaDeltaSEALTier0 guy, you need to offset with something like a Southnarc class, some stuff from Givens, and maybe some LE based stuff. It is how to bake a better cake.

Where is the "LIKE" button when you need it?

Gentlemen, thank you both for the words of wisdom. This echoes my own experience as a civilian over the last couple of years. I began my defensive mindset sevaral years ago thinking the gun was the only solution, thankfully I always enjoyed the handgun and new it would be what I mostly likely had and didn't go take 20 carbine classes. Thank God that hasn't happened as over the last couple of years or so I have very carefully selected the classes that I have taken to be CCW oriented or competition oriented in regards to the firearm solution. The definite next step for me is to learn combatives and to learn how to better recognize the pre attack patterns of an aggressor.

This thread made me feel like a newbie all over again even though this was a weakness that I have recognized recently. Thank you as this not only made me realize that I need even more training, but it has made me even hungrier for more knowledge! To the point where I'm starving for it! Sometimes I think we all forget to stay thirsty as we gain experience in whatever endeavor we may participate in. I will definitely be keeping an eye on classes within driving distance to me!

Southnarc...I'm still having a hard time getting my hands on a clinch pick. Any word or information on a new batch?

Nyeti...what is your opinion of classes such as vehicle tactics and how to properly defend oneself from such an encounter? Do either of you have thoughts in regards to some of the current curriculum being offered or the usefulness of such? Is it too Mall Ninja or is there a need? What are the similarities and differences(if any) in regards to recognition, deterrence, action, etc.? Many people like myself spend a good amount of time in and around my vehicle even though I am not LE, MIL, or operating a PSD detail.

Sorry about the influx of questions or if they are too off topic. This is a really good thread.

[SouthNarc]

Where is the "LIKE" button when you need it?

Gentlemen, thank you both for the words of wisdom. This echoes my own experience as a civilian over the last couple of years. I began my defensive mindset sevaral years ago thinking the gun was the only solution, thankfully I always enjoyed the handgun and new it would be what I mostly likely had and didn't go take 20 carbine classes. Thank God that hasn't happened as over the last couple of years or so I have very carefully selected the classes that I have taken to be CCW oriented or competition oriented in regards to the firearm solution. The definite next step for me is to learn combatives and to learn how to better recognize the pre attack patterns of an aggressor.

This thread made me feel like a newbie all over again even though this was a weakness that I have recognized recently. Thank you as this not only made me realize that I need even more training, but it has made me even hungrier for more knowledge! To the point where I'm starving for it! Sometimes I think we all forget to stay thirsty as we gain experience in whatever endeavor we may participate in. I will definitely be keeping an eye on classes within driving distance to me!

Southnarc...I'm still having a hard time getting my hands on a clinch pick. Any word or information on a new batch?

Nyeti...what is your opinion of classes such as vehicle tactics and how to properly defend oneself from such an encounter? Do either of you have thoughts in regards to some of the current curriculum being offered or the usefulness of such? Is it too Mall Ninja or is there a need? What are the similarities and differences(if any) in regards to recognition, deterrence, action, etc.? Many people like myself spend a good amount of time in and around my vehicle even though I am not LE, MIL, or operating a PSD detail.

Sorry about the influx of questions or if they are too off topic. This is a really good thread.

450 Clinch Picks are enroute from China as I write this. Look for them on TAD by the end of the month. I'll try and post here when we've received them and before we send them to TAD.

I REALLY hesitate to comment on what else is being taught out there. Darryl might because he's kind of dickish though.

[SouthNarc]

Here's a pretty good book.

http://www.amazon.com/Left-Bang-Marine-Combat-Program/dp/1936891301

I teach ALOT of these same elements in abbreviated format in ECQC but these guys do a nice job of putting things in print. Minor points of contention but overall VERY well done.

[Mr Pink]

Here's a pretty good book.

http://www.amazon.com/Left-Bang-Marine-Combat-Program/dp/1936891301

I teach ALOT of these same elements in abbreviated format in ECQC but these guys do a nice job of putting things in print. Minor points of contention but overall VERY well done.
I teach teach part of a PSD course and they had the author give a class. I missed him by about 4 hours, but the students raved about him.

[imp1295]

On another note, I would typically agree with most of KevinB’s comments about the SOF community. “It is very different when you are operating on your own, as opposed to a team - the tactics are different.” The SOF community has realized that it’s people often times operate as singletons or in very small numbers. Guys are being sent to “Lone Operator” courses and carrying concealed for Force Protection reasons and it’s not just the SMU’s getting that kind of training.

Which, as you likely know, Craig's course work is extremely valuable. To the point, that I gained Craig's permission to use his stuff to augment the counter-elicitation training our guys don't get enough of.

[TElmer2]

Here's a pretty good book.

http://www.amazon.com/Left-Bang-Marine-Combat-Program/dp/1936891301

I teach ALOT of these same elements in abbreviated format in ECQC but these guys do a nice job of putting things in print. Minor points of contention but overall VERY well done.

Thank you for the information!

I will be on the lookout for both the new batch and hopefully see you in a class on the east coast in the near future.

In regards to commenting on curriculum. I should reword the question in regards to what is your opinion on the similarities or differences in regards to what you teach but in a vehicle format? Carjacking, robbery, etc. Such as recognition, deterrence, movement, and action if necessary.

[Aray]

Many of us on P-F perhaps assume some level of physical competence, and I completely agree that it's helpful in many potential encounters. The sad reality is that some of the guys at my local range are pretty fair shots at a static target but are over 65 and have trouble getting into their pickup truck at the end of the night. So, how do we train for those guys relative to someone younger and more agile and flexible?

Salamander brings up a very interesting point and one that I am faced with as a local instructor often. Whether it's a blue haired lady, a WWII Artillery Officer or a 47 year old overweight single mom with a restraining order, I am faced with teaching folks who don't begin to have the physical ability to participate in ECQC or similar. These are the people who need the force multiplier of the firearm, otherwise their fate is sealed. Do you (Nyeti and Southnarc) have any thoughts on a system that would serve them?

I find it difficult to just say "Sorry, you're screwed."

[GardoneVT]

Salamander brings up a very interesting point and one that I am faced with as a local instructor often. Whether it's a blue haired lady, a WWII Artillery Officer or a 47 year old overweight single mom with a restraining order, I am faced with teaching folks who don't begin to have the physical ability to participate in ECQC or similar. These are the people who need the force multiplier of the firearm, otherwise their fate is sealed. Do you (Nyeti and Southnarc) have any thoughts on a system that would serve them?

I find it difficult to just say "Sorry, you're screwed."

Disclaimer; I'm just a Holiday Inn Express customer here!

That out of the way, we should start by evaluating what a CCW holder faces as a threat. Fortunately , what few statistics we have generally shows that once armed jerks in the US are given a taste of their own medicine, they hit the road immediately instead of continuing the encounter.Even business robberies typically turn into the bad guys shooting as they try to exit.

Another general pattern ; bad guys sizing up a victim tend to leave Very Big Clues before they whip out the gun, which is a subject I have personal experience with. The earlier one IDs a potential threat, the easier it is to defuse the encounter without shooting.

So, maybe we should shift our focus from how fast and accurate one shoots, to tabling firearm manipulation beyond drawing and focusing CCW oriented training to human body language, psychology, and threat detection versus threat shooting. Everyone can be trained on how to spot three shifty guys in the shadows before they Become a Problem, but not everyone with a CCW permit has the resources to develop good shooting skill. I do not say that to poo-poo accurate defensive fire, but some SMEs have spent a LOT of money honing their skill. A man with three kids to feed on his job alone probably doesn't have the resources to burn $50,000 worth of ammo and range costs to develop advanced shooting skill. What of the poor souls who barely have the spare income to buy a defensive pistol? What of the citizens whose only range options are expensive FUDD-zones where rapid fire and defensive shooting practice is prohibited?

Nothing wrong with busting caps like a ninja, but its better to avoid having to fire to begin with if at all possible.

[Dagga Boy]

Here's a pretty good book.

http://www.amazon.com/Left-Bang-Marine-Combat-Program/dp/1936891301

I teach ALOT of these same elements in abbreviated format in ECQC but these guys do a nice job of putting things in print. Minor points of contention but overall VERY well done.

Like magic, right after you posted this the doorbell rang and there was a package from Amazon that I didn't order with this book on it. One of our favorite students sent it (Thanks Bill!). I will be starting it today.

[Malamute]

Salamander brings up a very interesting point and one that I am faced with as a local instructor often. Whether it's a blue haired lady, a WWII Artillery Officer or a 47 year old overweight single mom with a restraining order, I am faced with teaching folks who don't begin to have the physical ability to participate in ECQC or similar. These are the people who need the force multiplier of the firearm, otherwise their fate is sealed. Do you (Nyeti and Southnarc) have any thoughts on a system that would serve them?

I find it difficult to just say "Sorry, you're screwed."


I'd like to re-emphasize this ^^. I had mentioned this elsewhere. Not being all that old (50's) and supposedly in decent shape from my trade, but suffering from injuries that hand to hand could potentially cripple me, I'd get a knife or gun in my hand as soon as humanly possible in any altercation. I'm NOT wrestling around with anyone that could do lifechanging injury.

[Alpha Sierra]

I'd like to re-emphasize this ^^. I had mentioned this elsewhere. Not being all that old (50's) and supposedly in decent shape from my trade, but suffering from injuries that hand to hand could potentially cripple me, I'd get a knife or gun in my hand as soon as humanly possible in any altercation. I'm NOT wrestling around with anyone that could do lifechanging injury.
I'm going to second this.

I also find some of the training suggestions here so far fetched that they defy description. Tactical medicine? BOKs? LOL.....who the hell walks around with any first aid kit, let alone one that is useful to treat bullet holes when they go about their typical civilian day armed? And wtf good does it do to know how to treat bullet holes when you don't have what you need to do it? Giving first aid to someone who you just shot for assaulting you? I am NOT about to touch someone else's blood with who the hell knows what pathogens in it. That's the EMT's job, not mine.

I don't know what reality some of you all live in, but it sure as hell doesn't look like mine.

[Jay Cunningham]

One aspect of training which is often overlooked, misunderstood, or simply ignored is the matter of Risk - how to define it, how to assess it, and how to mitigate it.

I'm referring to the magnitude (severity) of the possible adverse consequence(s)

AND

the likelihood (probability) of occurrence of each consequence.

Oftentimes instructors place a great emphasis on an outlier or outliers which - statistically speaking - don't warrant the emphasis.

We also see some very risky behavior advocated and conducted during training which may not be worth the reward.

[imp1295]

Here's a pretty good book.

http://www.amazon.com/Left-Bang-Marine-Combat-Program/dp/1936891301

I teach ALOT of these same elements in abbreviated format in ECQC but these guys do a nice job of putting things in print. Minor points of contention but overall VERY well done.

kindle edition purchased. Thanks SN.

It's this type of "knowledge sharing" that I enjoy so much about P-F.com and TPI.

What is even crazier is that when I talk to peers and others I work for about some of this subject matter, it is typically something many haven't even considered. I guess that's what happens when we all get our PowerPoint ranger tabs and stop thinking about what tax payers are paying us to really do.

Bureaucracy is the little death.

[SouthNarc]

Bureaucracy is the little death.

Don't I know it brother!

[SouthNarc]

I'm NOT wrestling around with anyone that could do lifechanging injury.



I'm going to second this.


I didn't plan on getting my skull fractured with a socket wrench and almost beat to death by two dudes but....

[Dagga Boy]

I carry some aid stuff in all my packs, and there is one in the car. If I have a back pack< I have some minimal stuff. My real concern is making sure the other guy has the injuries. The aid stuff is one of my fairly agnostic subjects.

Training the non-dedicated end user. This is much of our world. I look at this as an offsetting "hope" scale. Many people are totally untrained, their plan is "I'll call the police" and hope. Others get a little "training" and "hope" its enough. Some take the responsibility for their own safety seriously and begin a training program that they hope will get the scenario they have trained for and a scenario that fits their training. Others become very serious and start training to the point that they feel that they can dominate most opponents in the scenarios they hope they get. Then there are the severe pessimists that just know that no matter how good they are life is going to crap on them and it becomes and endless journey to try to cover every single possibility and they just hope that they have covered all the bases.

Where I love to recommend Craig's stuff is for the guys who have trained to dominate most of the scenarios they "hope" they get to get them to the point that they get in that last group so they can see how bad stuff can go. Doing it "live" enough will make a pessimist out of you. Craig will get you close if you are not in a line of work to get it on a daily basis.

One of the big reasons we use Tarani for our blade and improvised stuff is you can get through it without getting hurt. The program runs the same for the NSW and .Gov dudes as old and feeble. The take aways and training later will be the difference. My thought is if we can improve the hope scale from "call the police and hope" to "hope what my response is will stop an attack" is actually HUGE. One of our students is a very high class senior lady who has been victimized in high end mall parking garages more than once. She has decided she is no longer trusting the police or security. Nothing is going to change her physical situation. What has changed is some discussions with us on awareness, and the level she is at with her M&P Compact, her new hope is that she sees the threat in time to deploy her pistol. I have no doubt that if it is in her hand, she will prevail. While many may poo poo that, the fact is that is a huge plus to her side. I am big on slide the scale. "Some" dedicated training catered to those of "us" (I am one now myself) who are old, broken or likely both is better than simple surrender to "hoping the police come". Even some level of awareness will help a ton. Our classy lady student who has some tools to see a threat before it comes from nowhere and starting thinking about deploying her M&P is not like ECQC, but it is a start. Even some simple tools of awareness and how to get those manicured nails into eyes is a slide in the right direction. It is amazing what we can pull from the memory banks in a crisis. The key is to have something loaded in there. A class or training dedicated to your abilities is not a cop out or un realistic, it is an opportunity to move the scale. It is not getting moved to "total bad ass", but it is a positive. It helps to increase "will" and helps to at least develop a ruthless "I will not be a victim" switch.
Winning is always the goal. With that said, giving yourself a chance by at least fighting is better than executed on your knees with no chance.

[Dagga Boy]

I didn't plan on getting my skull fractured with a socket wrench and almost beat to death by two dudes but....

WTF is it with wrenches......The fight that ended my career got bad when I got a crescent wrench punched into my left eye. These things are not in most training programs. The benefit of training is that even with it looking like a loss by leaving the job in an ambulance........at least I didn't spend the rest of the week in ICU being fed through a tube like the other guy.

One thing Craig and I very much agree on and often have a hard time convincing people......you have no idea of the level of brutality and simply bad that is out there and how fast things can go bad.

[SouthNarc]

Salamander brings up a very interesting point and one that I am faced with as a local instructor often. Whether it's a blue haired lady, a WWII Artillery Officer or a 47 year old overweight single mom with a restraining order, I am faced with teaching folks who don't begin to have the physical ability to participate in ECQC or similar. These are the people who need the force multiplier of the firearm, otherwise their fate is sealed. Do you (Nyeti and Southnarc) have any thoughts on a system that would serve them?

I find it difficult to just say "Sorry, you're screwed."


Honestly the best thing you can do with them is be as honest as you can about their limitations. Focus on awareness and preemption. That being said you'd be surprised what people are actually capable of doing physically. I think this is where personalized instruction is important and being able to adapt a concept to a specific issue. I've had four clients now in wheelchairs and every single one was different. I was able to come up with viable strategies and modified TTPs for all of them.

So I don't think in those cases that you mentioned there's going to be a single "system" that takes all those things into account.

[SouthNarc]

WTF is it with wrenches......The fight that ended my career got bad when I got a crescent wrench punched into my left eye.........at least I didn't spend the rest of the week in ICU


Unfortunately I did...

[Clay]

Excellent stuff Nyeti and SN, as always. Thanks to everyone for this thread. I'm a gun and gear nerd and so I enjoy that part of the forum very much, but it's these kinds of discussions that make me a more knowledgeable gun owner and CHL carrier.

On the first aid/BOK stuff - I have a BOK in my range bag and in both my vehicles. The vehicle kits are more oriented to auto accidents, but I have a couple of tourniquets and some Quickclot,etc. I would highly recommend at least having one of those Trauma kits from Adventure Medical in your range bag. Relying on the RO or someone else at the local range to save you or your loved one defeats the whole "carry a gun, take care of yourself" mentality, IMHO. Some of the people at my local range scare the hell out of me, and beyond that, I know I'm not perfect and could have a big whoopseydaisy and blow myself up.

http://www.adventuremedicalkits.com/medical-kits/trauma-pak-with-quikclot.html

[NH Shooter]

SN and nyeti, great stuff!

Though I don't consider myself "old and fragile" at 60 years old, I'm certainly not at the level of physical ability I was 30 years ago when I swung wrenches for a living in the trades. That said, I would like to think that I'm now a bit wiser, a bit more aware, in better control of my emotions and as good or better with a handgun than ever. I appreciate that both of you recognize the needs of "older" people like me who wish to learn to better protect themselves and loved ones by best leveraging our existing skills while minimizing our diminished physical abilities.

Having taken SN's managing unknown contacts course a few years ago, I think it serves as a good base for the type of training being discussed. If I'm unable to dissuade the unknown contact from breaking their advance, some hands-on training as SN described in his 2 vs. 1 exercise would be hugely helpful for me. At least in my case, I'm not so much concerned about the gun handling and marksmanship skills as I am about deploying them to best effect in the case of a deadly force confrontation.

My thanks to both of you for sharing your thoughts and expertise.

[David Armstrong]

One aspect of training which is often overlooked, misunderstood, or simply ignored is the matter of Risk - how to define it, how to assess it, and how to mitigate it.
I'm referring to the magnitude (severity) of the possible adverse consequence(s)
AND
the likelihood (probability) of occurrence of each consequence.
Oftentimes instructors place a great emphasis on an outlier or outliers which - statistically speaking - don't warrant the emphasis.
We also see some very risky behavior advocated and conducted during training which may not be worth the reward.
Lots of very big agreement with this. I've argued for years with many I think should know better that understanding the rough probabilities and likelihoods of an encounter are essential to dtermining a best response and the best training regimen. We base most of what we do in our lives on this concept, yet for some reason many want to totally disregard it when the issue of self defense comes up.

[Mr Pink]

Which, as you likely know, Craig's course work is extremely valuable. To the point, that I gained Craig's permission to use his stuff to augment the counter-elicitation training our guys don't get enough of.A great counter-elicitation technique: When someone unknown tries to strike up a conversation, just punch them in the face and run ;)

[SouthNarc]

A great counter-elicitation technique: When someone unknown tries to strike up a conversation, just punch them in the face and run ;)



HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! Well done!

[nycnoob]

who the hell walks around with any first aid kit, let alone one that is useful to treat bullet holes when they go about their typical civilian day armed? And wtf good does it do to know how to treat bullet holes when you don't have what you need to do it? Giving first aid to someone who you just shot for assaulting you? I am NOT about to touch someone else's blood with who the hell knows what pathogens in it. That's the EMT's job, not mine.

When I took my first CCW class, nearly everyone in the class bought tourniquets and trauma dressing/bandages. I still carry mine with my daily. I live in NYC so I can not CCW, I carry mine in case of accidents with automobiles, subways and falling debris. There were tons of trauma kits used after the Gifford shooting and after the Boston Bombing, someone must have carried them to the scene.

I was always told that that the trauma kits were for me, in case I had an accident with my own weapon, or in case someone intentionally injured me, I should be able to repair puncture wounds before the EMTS arrived. Also I got an EMT cert immediately after my basic gun training and I know I am not the only person to do so. If I am going to carry a gun around others I should at least know some basics about helping those I love should they need it.

Additional after my first gun class I bought a ravelin group safe direction (http://ravelingroup.com/safedirection174.html) so that when I do gun manipulation in a hotel room I am sure that any ND's will be into the PAD and not into the hotel. I purchased all this safety equipment and I still use and carry it since I figured this was part of responsible gun ownership. I do not think I am the only one who thinks these are sort of a minimum for being responsible.

[ST911]

Understanding some trauma basics and what the BOK gear actually does reduces a lot of the need for widgets. I've managed and packaged some pretty serious folks with clothing worn and pocket clutter.

Aid to a bad guy you just righteously injured... Layman? Generally no. Professionally armed? Conduct with all precautions.

[Jared]

I know several folks in this thread either have been or are instructors at it, so can someone let me know what the pre-requisites are to attend the Rangemaster Tactical conference? Would that be a pretty good place to start working on the list of stuff I mentioned earlier in the thread or should it be considered more advanced coursework?

Memphis isn't all that far from me, in fact, it's a reasonable drive.

[SouthNarc]

I know several folks in this thread either have been or are instructors at it, so can someone let me know what the pre-requisites are to attend the Rangemaster Tactical conference? Would that be a pretty good place to start working on the list of stuff I mentioned earlier in the thread or should it be considered more advanced coursework?

Memphis isn't all that far from me, in fact, it's a reasonable drive.


No pre-reqs for the Tac Conf. at all and it is a really good place to spend a weekend.

[HRL]

Not necessarily CCW related but for armed citizens in general, was wondering how folks prioritized long gun training? I am in a fairly urban area and would love to own numerous rifles and shotguns, but as a very budget conscious person (aka broke) feel that spending most of my money and time concentrating on pistols, hand to hand skills, and fitness would be much more worth my efforts.

I know that long guns are more effective and easier to get accurate hits with but it seems that the opportunities to use them will be so rare for the average joe that it isn't worth taking away from the building other skills that the other folks here have mentioned.

[RJ]

Here's a pretty good book.

http://www.amazon.com/Left-Bang-Marine-Combat-Program/dp/1936891301

I teach ALOT of these same elements in abbreviated format in ECQC but these guys do a nice job of putting things in print. Minor points of contention but overall VERY well done.

Thank you for the tip.

Just ordered it off Amazon Kindle edition.

Based on the sample, I think this will be a pretty good use of $7.99.

Rich in Tampa

[Alpha Sierra]

Not necessarily CCW related but for armed citizens in general, was wondering how folks prioritized long gun training? I am in a fairly urban area and would love to own numerous rifles and shotguns, but as a very budget conscious person (aka broke) feel that spending most of my money and time concentrating on pistols, hand to hand skills, and fitness would be much more worth my efforts.

I know that long guns are more effective and easier to get accurate hits with but it seems that the opportunities to use them will be so rare for the average joe that it isn't worth taking away from the building other skills that the other folks here have mentioned.
A carbine requires far less training and practice to be useful than a pistol. Therefore becoming and remaining proficient with a carbine is not going to double your training budget.

[Tom Givens]

Here is the info on the Tactical Conference. There is no better bang for your buck and you can sample the training of two dozen instructors from all over the country.

The 13th annual Tactical Conference will be conducted over three days: February 20-22, 2015 (Friday through Sunday). This prestigious event will be held at the excellent facilities of the Memphis Police Department Training Academy. There will be classroom seminars, hands-on training segments, and a live-fire tactical pistol match scheduled over all three days. The Academy has multiple classrooms and multiple live-fire ranges, which will allow for live-fire blocks of instruction running current with the defensive pistol match and the classroom lectures. Participants may attend as many training blocks as time permits. All training segments, the pistol match, and a prize drawing are included in the entry fee. There are no other costs/fees.

The pistol match involves realistic scenarios and reactive mannequin targets that only fall when struck with solid, vital-zone hits. Target identification and discrimination are involved, along with shooting under stressful and realistic conditions. Only daily carry street guns and gear are allowed, and you will need about 100 rounds of ammunition.

The 2015 Tactical Conference will feature an impressive list of trainers. So far, the faculty roster includes John Farnam, Massad Ayoob,Tom Givens, Southnarc, Paul Sharp, Steve Moses, Wayne Dobbs, Darryl Bolke, Karl Rehn, John Hearne, Chuck Haggard, Jim Higginbotham, Dr. Martin Topper, Andrew Branca, John Murphy, William Aprill, and many more—over twenty trainers in all. This is a rare opportunity to take part in knife, empty-hand, handgun, emergency medical, and tactics training all in one location. The entry fee of $299 represents the best value for your training dollar in the entire industry. This event fills early every year, as space is strictly limited. So it’s best to register as early as possible to avoid disappointment.

Go to rangemaster.com to register.

[jlw]

I've attended a one-day lecture by Van Horne on the Mind Hunter program. I just bought the kindle edition of his book.

---

Decision making is something that I think should be a part of any armed person's training. This can be accomplished in many ways, but there should be an information processing component, and some of this should incorporate the laws on the use of deadly force. As for the latter part of that sentence, I mean the actual legality around whether or not the use of force is justified and not the running down of rabbit holes such as whether or not aftermarket parts, ammo choice, etc, will lead to your extended stay in prison based upon their very existence.

--

The sight picture of on a three-dimensional live person does not look the same as a sight picture on a flat facing cardboard/paper target.

[MVS]

I know several folks in this thread either have been or are instructors at it, so can someone let me know what the pre-requisites are to attend the Rangemaster Tactical conference? Would that be a pretty good place to start working on the list of stuff I mentioned earlier in the thread or should it be considered more advanced coursework?

Memphis isn't all that far from me, in fact, it's a reasonable drive.

It would be a great place to start. Some of the info is advanced in theory (Like anything from John Hearne), but you should be able to make sense of most of it. Some of the rest you will "get" at a later date. The one thing that can be a bit disconcerting is having all of these true S.M.E.'s, trained and experienced guys, disagree on a whole bunch of stuff. Sometimes pretty major stuff. That said, I don't think there are many better ways to spend three days and $300.00.

[imp1295]

A great counter-elicitation technique: When someone unknown tries to strike up a conversation, just punch them in the face and run ;)

Frickin' hilarious. Hold on, I need to make a long distance phone call to update some ROE.

[cclaxton]

So here's the set-up for the 2 vs 1 evolution. In a full class of 18 it usually takes about 3.5 hours to get everyone through. Everyone not participating is part of "Thunderdome" which is a ring around the participants. So they're watching.

Three people are in the ring wearing FIST helmets one has a Sim gun concealed. He's the focus of the evolution.

When I say "Begin" one of the other two people will begin encroaching towards the gun bearer. So it starts that way every time.

The third person I have physically held by the elbow. They cannot be seen and do not exist to the gun bearer until I actually let go of him. So he's not in play until I release him.

Now where does it go from there? I really don't care. It's not over until I call it regardless of what happens. I may call the exercise without a shot being fired, a gun drawn, or a punch thrown. OR...I may call the exercise with the gun bearer on the ground getting the shit kicked out of him by two dudes and shot with his own gun. It doesn't matter to me and the two people feeding the gun bearer have complete freedom to play it any way they want to.

Common theme:

Gun guy get's encroached by a stranger, overreacts (generally poor verbals) and get's into a fistfight which goes horizontal. I release the second guy who encroaches quickly with an Iphone and says something like "DAMN DOG THIS SHIT IS GOING ON MY YOUTUBE!!!" Gun guy getting punched sees nothing more than the outstreched arm assumes a hostile and shoots iphone bearer.

Gun guy rarely has the composure (because he has no jiu-jitsu) to remain calm, assess the second guy accurately and attempt a verbal strategy along the lines of "DUDE GET THIS FUCKIN' GUY OFF ME HE'S A MUSLIM!!!!" Occasionally he does and guess what? Quite often (within the exercise) it works!

Tip: People love being steered. Someone smarter than me said a long time ago a polite tell goes alot further than a polite ask.

Another common theme:

I say begin and the initial encroacher is bearing down on the gun bearer FAST. The encroacher's head is turned sideways and he's making a high pitched keening sound. Gun guy goes for the pistol or a hand strike right when I let go of the second guy who starts screaming "THAT"S MY BROTHER AND HE'S AUTISTIC YOU FUCKING MORON PUT THE GUN AWAY" Two rapidly bearing strangers, the inability to cycle down emotionally, may very well result in one of them getting shot. OR the second guy get's pissed when he sees the gun and starts cycling up. Gun guy can't put the gun away, realizes what has happened tries to de-escalate because he feels shitty, and get's sucker punched with a gun in his hand. Now gun and and mad brother are fighting over the gun with developmentally disabled kid caterwauling in the background.

Those are two random examples from that exercise I do. Everybody does it and everybody watches everybody else.

Afterward it's debriefed with me following a chronological progression of the decision points. Everybody is encouraged to ask questions and offer input. Once that's done, we switch the gun and do it again until everyone in the trio has been on the gun.

It's pretty exhausting for me personally as I have to be on point for about 3.5 hours non-stop. That being said the value of having an experience without consequence,for the average person who is not in a high risk profession is IMO pretty damn informative.
This is really great posting and provides a good idea of what kinds of things you teach. Once a trainee leaves your class, how does he/she practice or keep up their skills, or continue?

Thanks,
Cody

[rob_s]

I am interested in discussing what tactical training the typical CCW gun owner should have.

I'm curious, did we ever arrive at what constitutes "typical" for the purposes of this discussion?

To my mind, "typical" would be the guy that bought a Glock, took a class at a gun show, carries infrequently at best, and "trains" or even "practices" even less so.

Or, are we beginning the discussion of "typical CCW gun owner" at the base level of someone that carries every day, or every day they are legally able?

[Mike C]

I'll be the geek. This discussion needs to be made into a sticky. Shit ton of thought provoking material in here. This is the type of thread is what makes this place great. Secondly, I see now why JodyH is a ECQC junky, and after reading Nyeti's and SN's posts I don't think I've ever been as excited to take a class as I am to attend ECQC. Who'd-a thought people would like to pay to let others try and hand their asses to them? Sounds like fun to me. Now back to your regularly scheduled programming....

[Maple Syrup Actual]

This is really great posting and provides a good idea of what kinds of things you teach. Once a trainee leaves your class, how does he/she practice or keep up their skills, or continue?

Thanks,
Cody

I have two methods.

1) I stay in touch with some of the guys from previous classes and go over stuff once in a while (some people are better at this than others. I'm known for taking a bit of a slacker approach to keeping up my skills).

2) I hang around in seedy bars. Works awesome. This is only semi-kidding. I play in a really dirty rock band and I have to hang around in sketchy places pretty regularly and while I don't get in fights there, I get MUC practise, dealing with people before it gets to the fight stage.

There's also the "join an MMA school" option that some more motivated people take. But for me, going stupid places with stupid people and doing stupid things has been a good approach.

[Drang]

I'm curious, did we ever arrive at what constitutes "typical" for the purposes of this discussion?...
I don't believe we did, although several of the posts tend to come from the POV that I have arrived at empirically, that the "typical" carry permit holder is fairly inexperienced, and may only carry when s/he thinks s/he is "going to need it." May very well have bought a Judge first, because shotgun,then realized it's too damned big to tote, and got a Glock, because that was the only gun s/he knew. And put it in an Uncle Mike's sausage sack on their stylish Gap belt.

There seems to be a self-selection process, by getting a permit, by taking a class, by leaving certain other fora (don't want to start any cross-forum shenanigans, but you know the ones I mean) and coming here, by the YouTube channels and blogs one frequents, the person who has gone through whatever process is necessary to be able to carry a gun for self-defense -- even if their state has "Constitutional Carry", no permit required -- citizens who are not otherwise members of the Gun Culture (any version) seem to be making a decision in favor of personal responsibility which seems, by and large, to lead to more responsible behavior. John Lott alluded to such a self-selection process in one of his books, but I don't know that anyone has studied it.

Quite possibly I'm talking out my fourth point of contact. But the percentages of people with carry permits, where such are required, who get in trouble with The Law seems to be pretty low, and primarily for administrative infractions. Getting nailed for "brandishing" because one's gun burka slipped seems to be common, as is "carrying where prohibited", or carrying after one's permit expired. OTOH, I've only seen numbers for WA, and even those numbers were not touted as being complete. (All three of the examples are misdemeanors here, and if you renew your permit the last one is dropped.)

[SouthNarc]

This is really great posting and provides a good idea of what kinds of things you teach. Once a trainee leaves your class, how does he/she practice or keep up their skills, or continue?

Thanks,
Cody

misanthropist touched on this but the only way to do sustainment on the skills that I mentioned are to have someone to do it with. You can't really do it by yourself. That's why training groups are important and I encourage guys to get together on their own after they've done coursework.

[cclaxton]

In competition shooting there are established standards to classify your skill level. I assume LEO's and Mil-Combat guys have to pass a test show proficiency, etc. So...
1) Are there any established standards for CCW skills? (I am not talking about State requirements to get a permit)
2) Are there any tests or qualifiers for CCW? (Again, not asking about permit requirements...skills.)

I am not so much asking about shooting and marksmanship (although that applies), but all the other stuff: Force on Force, Hand to Hand, Indoor Tactics, Outdoor Tactics, Gun Disarms, Mental Disciplines, Decision-making, Knife attacks, etc.

Thanks,
Cody

[Chuck Haggard]

misanthropist touched on this but the only way to do sustainment on the skills that I mentioned are to have someone to do it with. You can't really do it by yourself. That's why training groups are important and I encourage guys to get together on their own after they've done coursework.

Does "sport MUC" count? :)

[SouthNarc]

I assume LEO's and Mil-Combat guys have to pass a test show proficiency, etc. So...


1) Are there any established standards for CCW skills? (I am not talking about State requirements to get a permit)
2) Are there any tests or qualifiers for CCW? (Again, not asking about permit requirements...skills.)




Usually not unless it's a progressive agency




I am not so much asking about shooting and marksmanship (although that applies), but all the other stuff: Force on Force, Hand to Hand, Indoor Tactics, Outdoor Tactics, Gun Disarms, Mental Disciplines, Decision-making, Knife attacks, etc.

Thanks,
Cody

Other than what is called "defensive tactics" in L.E......No. There is no standard for all of the other stuff.

[SouthNarc]

Does "sport MUC" count? :)

It does! And check your pocket for a rock!

[Glenn E. Meyer]

We have moved somewhat away from the OP on what the typical CCW type needs or wants. By the time we get to going to Tom's or taking SN's course - we are into the realm of the dedicated. If we care? Do we? Is there a minimally acceptable curriculum for the person with a LCP in their pocket or purse?

[orionz06]

Are we really that far away? I would argue that training for the greatest deficit would have some value and merit consideration.

The average gun toting guy or gal maybe doesn't need to dedicate their life to it but we should probably have a response for that particular possibility.

[SouthNarc]

By the time we get to going to Tom's or taking SN's course - we are into the realm of the dedicated.

Totally agree Glenn.


Is there a minimally acceptable curriculum for the person with a LCP in their pocket or purse?

I think there could be but since I don't deal with that kind of gun person regularly I probably don't have a truly informed opinion.

I can certainly relate to the difference between in-service police officers who MUST attend a block of training and a copper paying on his on dime.

But...I don't know. Never done state level basic CCW.

[rob_s]

Are we really that far away? I would argue that training for the greatest deficit would have some value and merit consideration.

The average gun toting guy or gal maybe doesn't need to dedicate their life to it but we should probably have a response for that particular possibility.

Seems to me that we jumped off the cliff on the first page. Unless the OP was asking the question wrong. The entire discussion seems to have had nothing whatsoever to do with the average CCW holder.

Which is fine, as that title probably doesn't apply to the intelligentsia here, but it's not what the words he originally wrote asked for.

[Biddy]

"It is amazing what we can pull from the memory banks in a crisis" -- nyeti

I would add, "...if our minds are free to do so."

I'm on time constraints at the moment, but if I had to say that one single thing is most critical to deliver to private citizens, it would be this:

Obliteration of accepted reality.

When a defender fails, whether it is an SA miss, a freeze, a knee jerk response to a bad read (reference SN's 'autistic brother' scenario), etc, I suspect that the culprit is a preconceived notion so ingrained that the defender is trapped in it.

--RBid/Biddy


If you don't carry it every day, it's not every day carry.

[orionz06]

Seems to me that we jumped off the cliff on the first page. Unless the OP was asking the question wrong. The entire discussion seems to have had nothing whatsoever to do with the average CCW holder.

Which is fine, as that title probably doesn't apply to the intelligentsia here, but it's not what the words he originally wrote asked for.

Is it the average CCW holder, the ideal CCW holder, or the average P-F.com member? It seems to be floating back and forth to make the responses work.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Well, take this for what it's worth, which is: thoughts from a non-inner-circle PFcommer, a Canadian, and a guy who spends twenty times as much time on tactics as on technical shooting skills:

I remember the original question being something about "what skills should a typical CCWer have/type and frequency of training etc"

I just drank a bacon ceasar so I'm overly confident and am going to say what I actually think is the answer to this question.



IMO, if you carry a gun, you need to be able to put rounds on target at close range but not much more. If I could only see one or the other, I'd rather see people shooting confidently from retention at contact range than expertly on a 3x5 at 25 under ideal conditions.

Before you put rounds on target you need to access your gun, and you're not doing that until things have gone pretty wrong - which quite possibly means there's someone on top of you, kicking your ass. So you need the boxing and grappling skills to manage the beating you may well take, and either get to your gun, or protect it from your assailant while you utilize other options.

Before you take that beating, you need the de-selection/de-escalation skills of managing encroachment problems before they become contact problems. So you have to have the combination of verbal and mental wherewithal to project enough force on approaching predators that they select easier meals.




That's why I tell everyone to take ECQC. Honestly, although I like high-skill shooting...I don't think it's especially critical for 99% of situations. I think a guy with 12 months of boxing and jujitsu and 6 hours of pistol fundamentals could eat the lunches of the overwhelming majority of assailants. I think a guy with 12 months of pistol training and 6 hours of boxing and jujitsu could provide a very good pistol and wallet to most assailants.


So that is my answer to the original question. A typical CCWer should focus on developing skills that involve coping with getting punched in the head or outflanked at a gas station by a guy who bottles you as his friend distracts you.

[Mr_White]

I agree with you guys, it seems to me that we are clearly discussing a highly dedicated practitioner here.

As to an answer for the actual typical (read: non-dedicated) person who maybe sometimes carries a gun, I invoke the ideas of Claude Werner.

[cclaxton]

As to what is needed for Average CCW, Advanced CCW or P-F Average, maybe this question is relevant:
What are the minimum skills required to be an adequate CCW operator?
Glenn earlier made a list, and seemed like a good starting point:

From the perspective of the FOG consumer of courses - I opine that the basic package should be:
1. Solid basics of gun usage - with a realistic carry gun.
2. Solid exposure to the legal issues and mindset
3. A well thought out and refereed FOF experience. This should include not just a shoot'em up but avoidance, dealing with the aftermath and associated things that happen in a critical incident
That's the minor in civilian SD usage

For the major:
1. Low light
2. First aid
3. Retention and H2H
4. More advanced gun utilization skills to increase speed and accuracy.

Electives:
1. If you claim you will use a long arm to defense the castle: Long arm training (not advanced shotgun racking to scare aware folks :p)
2. Things related to cars
3. If you can afford it and go - try something like Given's conference or the old NTI.
4. If you end up carrying a mouse gun in your pocket or a snubby - train with that too and shoot it.
5. Knife class

I don't know enough to say whether Force on Force belongs in tier 1 or tier 2, but it got me thinking about what the minimum skill set should be.
Cody

[Aray]

In the Rangemaster Instructor Class, Tom talks about being able to deliver 3 hits in 3 seconds from 3 steps as what can be described as a minimum level of proficiency for what I could easily describe as an 'average' CCW person.

So a person with that repeatable skill level has a very reasonable chance of success under the vast majority of the bell curve of potential situations that non-LEO and non military folks are likely to encounter based on his thousands of students experiences.

Police, undercover or otherwise, spend an enormously greater amount of time in stupid places, with stupid people who are doing stupid things, than everyday folks. Then in addition to that, they do their best to make them stop, get close and put them in custody.


I would submit that the potential negative consequence is about equal to a cop or Joe Citizen if a fight happens with hands or what I'll call manual weapons, knife, bat, brass knucles etc. Butt kicked, head caved in, stabbed in the junk etc.

I would also submit that the probability of a cop getting into a fight like the one described is far greater than Joe Citizen. Mr Citizen never has to get close enough to a bad guy to put handcuffs on him, has no duty to approach a BG, or stay where a potential BG is when he is identified as a potential bad actor. A police officer often has to do all of those things, often by himself.

That, to me, skews the training requirements and focus of said training.

[SouthNarc]

Seems to me that we jumped off the cliff on the first page. Unless the OP was asking the question wrong. The entire discussion seems to have had nothing whatsoever to do with the average CCW holder.

Which is fine, as that title probably doesn't apply to the intelligentsia here, but it's not what the words he originally wrote asked for.




Is it the average CCW holder, the ideal CCW holder, or the average P-F.com member? It seems to be floating back and forth to make the responses work.


Actually I asked for clarification on that on page 3.


Just for clarity are we discussing what the average CCW'er can and will do or an ideal to strive for then work our way down?

aaaaaand was told this also on page 3 by the OP.


Fair question, and my initial question may have been ambiguous.

I would say both. What is the basic level of tactical training that a typical CCW holder should have, and what is an ideal level of training the more motivated CCW holder should strive for?



So I was starting with ideal and working backwards.

[Mr_White]

In the Rangemaster Instructor Class, Tom talks about being able to deliver 3 hits in 3 seconds from 3 steps as what can be described as a minimum level of proficiency for what I could easily describe as an 'average' CCW person.

So a person with that repeatable skill level has a very reasonable chance of success under the vast majority of the bell curve of potential situations that non-LEO and non military folks are likely to encounter based on his thousands of students experiences.

Police, undercover or otherwise, spend an enormously greater amount of time in stupid places, with stupid people who are doing stupid things, than everyday folks. Then in addition to that, they do their best to make them stop, get close and put them in custody.


I would submit that the potential negative consequence is about equal to a cop or Joe Citizen if a fight happens with hands or what I'll call manual weapons, knife, bat, brass knucles etc. Butt kicked, head caved in, stabbed in the junk etc.

I would also submit that the probability of a cop getting into a fight like the one described is far greater than Joe Citizen. Mr Citizen never has to get close enough to a bad guy to put handcuffs on him, has no duty to approach a BG, or stay where a potential BG is when he is identified as a potential bad actor. A police officer often has to do all of those things, often by himself.

That, to me, skews the training requirements and focus of said training.

Great post.

-----

I think there is going to be an uncomfortable stickiness between what we all think should be the minimum skillset for a person expecting to be able to defend themselves, vs. what is factually supportable as necessary. That's going to look a lot more like 'have a gun, see problem coming in time to get gun out, fire gun toward threat.' I'm sure exceptions can be found, but I bet that's going to be the general trend. That's not what I'm going to rely on for myself, but...I train like I do because I enjoy it. I can't pretend it's not effectively entertainment and bonus preparation for rather outlying events.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

In the Rangemaster Instructor Class, Tom talks about being able to deliver 3 hits in 3 seconds from 3 steps as what can be described as a minimum level of proficiency for what I could easily describe as an 'average' CCW person.

So a person with that repeatable skill level has a very reasonable chance of success under the vast majority of the bell curve of potential situations that non-LEO and non military folks are likely to encounter based on his thousands of students experiences.

Police, undercover or otherwise, spend an enormously greater amount of time in stupid places, with stupid people who are doing stupid things, than everyday folks. Then in addition to that, they do their best to make them stop, get close and put them in custody.


I would submit that the potential negative consequence is about equal to a cop or Joe Citizen if a fight happens with hands or what I'll call manual weapons, knife, bat, brass knucles etc. Butt kicked, head caved in, stabbed in the junk etc.

I would also submit that the probability of a cop getting into a fight like the one described is far greater than Joe Citizen. Mr Citizen never has to get close enough to a bad guy to put handcuffs on him, has no duty to approach a BG, or stay where a potential BG is when he is identified as a potential bad actor. A police officer often has to do all of those things, often by himself.

That, to me, skews the training requirements and focus of said training.

But the vast majority of uniformed police will also never be targeted by people who want money, wristwatches, or shoes.

This is why I'd tend to ask the question: "What does a typical criminal assault look like?"

If the typical criminal assault begins at with a guy saying "shooter ready? BEEP!" at 10 yards, then awesome. Go for your gun, put rounds on target, and walk away with no problems until Al Sharpton shows up.

If the typical criminal assault begins with a guy saying, "hey bro, you got the time?" and then, when you look at your watch or phone, he rocks you in the face with a roll of quarters...



I would argue that the thing to do is start by analyzing typical violent muggings etc, and go from there. My belief is that they generally being with patter, proceed to sluggings, bludgeonings, stabbings or brandishings, and end with sadness. My training is oriented towards that belief and personally, I think if you're taking a different approach that's fine, but you're not doing what I personally think is the best approach to defensive skills.

[orionz06]

This assumes we are all training for the same thing. There are many distorted views of reality at play here.

[Mr_White]

But the vast majority of uniformed police will also never be targeted by people who want money, wristwatches, or shoes.

This is why I'd tend to ask the question: "What does a typical criminal assault look like?"

If the typical criminal assault begins at with a guy saying "shooter ready? BEEP!" at 10 yards, then awesome. Go for your gun, put rounds on target, and walk away with no problems until Al Sharpton shows up.

If the typical criminal assault begins with a guy saying, "hey bro, you got the time?" and then, when you look at your watch or phone, he rocks you in the face with a roll of quarters...



I would argue that the thing to do is start by analyzing typical violent muggings etc, and go from there. My belief is that they generally being with patter, proceed to sluggings, bludgeonings, stabbings or brandishings, and end with sadness. My training is oriented towards that belief and personally, I think if you're taking a different approach that's fine, but you're not doing what I personally think is the best approach to defensive skills.

As far as I can tell, the experiences of Tom Givens' students don't seem to support your beliefs. I would love to know if there is some big gap in that data set though. Not saying you are wrong exactly. Just saying I'm Secretary Not Sure on this.

[ST911]

Based on my experience, the typical CCWer benefits most from basic instruction in loading, unloading, safe handling, safe presentation, and core marksmanship principles. As most will not invest the time or money to do much more, the time you have with them is best spent on limiting unintended injury to self and others. That's not to speak ill of them, but it is what it is. Most folks are gun owners, not shooters.

[SouthNarc]

As far as I can tell, the experiences of Tom Givens' students don't seem to support your beliefs. I would love to know if there is some big gap in that data set though. Not saying you are wrong exactly. Just saying I'm Secretary Not Sure on this.

Actually that's not true. What it shows is that Tom's guys do a good job of recognizing problems early that warrant a gun, getting their guns out before range closes, and hitting what they shoot at. If you can do that it never gets to an entanglement which is preferred.

It doesn't prove that robberies don't begin the way misanthropist suggested.

[Chuck Haggard]

As far as I can tell, the experiences of Tom Givens' students don't seem to support your beliefs. I would love to know if there is some big gap in that data set though.

I was about to throw Tom's massive level of experience, and success, into this as an example of what a non-dedicated shooter but wants to CCW person should be looking for.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Actually that's not true. What it shows is that Tom's guys do a good job of recognizing problems early that warrant a gun, getting their guns out before range closes, and hitting what they shoot at. If you can do that it never gets to an entanglement which is preferred.

It doesn't prove that robberies don't begin the way misanthropist suggested.

Well, I guess that's the plug for the gap in the data set.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Are we separating out the gun/fighting skills from the total strategic package? That give us a couple of pathways.

I took a course in military history from a major general in the Hungarian army who fled the '56 revolution. He starts with your grand strategy. That is for the civilian to stay alive. Then the strategic paths - avoid or fight as to which gives you the best outcome. Then the tactics in the situation you are in.

Tom's data and point is clearly relevant to the path that you could not avoid the fight. You recognize as Craig said when the situation merited the gun usage and Tom teaches you to do that well.

But the total beginner package also should try to get you to avoid that path but understanding victim selection, avoidance and flat out fleeing in terror - along with not being a steely-eyed dealer of death if you can. Thus, for the beginner - basics of gun usage (if we are talking firearms solutions) and these others avoidant tactics are the first lessons. Pragmatically, getting the beginner to go for H2H in a serious way probably won't appeal to the beginner. Who likes getting clobbered when you want to use your blast-o-matic?

I like serious FOF early on so folks learn to avoid or talk their ways out of things.

Here is a funny avoidance story. When I lived in Portland, we went to dinner in a funky part of town as that was the cool thing to do for ethnic foods. So the dinner breaks up. SE Portland is a one way grid. As I drive away, I stop at an intersection and out of a dive bar come two combatants, slugging each other. They fall on top of the car in front of my on the hood. The driver rolls down the window to say - Hey, what the ... are you doing? One combatant says - I will show you and proceeds to bash the other's noggin into the windshield repeatedly. Then, from the bar a horde of combatants charge out like a peasant mob after Frankenstein.

I notice that my stick shift as an R setting, such that I can flee. Which I do - the wrong way on the street but it is later and a U turn gets me down a side street. I might have gotten out my gat and side - Now all you just stop that.

But I avoided. Seriously, some folks in beginner gun class would actually think they should join the fray as they are ....

Since many of the TX gun handlers I know think they are innate great shots and fighters, they are reluctant to train - so can we get something into their heads in a small, doable package?

[Kyle Reese]

Are we separating out the gun/fighting skills from the total strategic package? That give us a couple of pathways.

I took a course in military history from a major general in the Hungarian army who fled the '56 revolution. He starts with your grand strategy. That is for the civilian to stay alive. Then the strategic paths - avoid or fight as to which gives you the best outcome. Then the tactics in the situation you are in.


General Bela Kiraly?

[jlw]

I would also submit that the probability of a cop getting into a fight like the one described is far greater than Joe Citizen. Mr Citizen never has to get close enough to a bad guy to put handcuffs on him, has no duty to approach a BG, or stay where a potential BG is when he is identified as a potential bad actor. A police officer often has to do all of those things, often by himself.




The fight initiating during handcuffing has a couple of components to it. The first is shoddy handcuffing technique. The second is initiative deficit. In the cop's mind, the encounter at that point is resulting in the suspect being cuffed. When the suspect fights, the officer's OODA loop gets reset, and he/she is behind the initiative curve. This is the analogous to what Tom teaches about the sidestep. The perp's mind has the encounter ending by his getting paid only to be faced by a WTF moment when the intended victim suddenly isn't standing in the same place and incoming fire is directed towards said perp.

-----

In reference to the Tactical Conference, I hear tell that there will be a block on judgmental shooting. It's being taught by a couple of podunk GA cops though.

[KevinB]

Not necessarily CCW related but for armed citizens in general, was wondering how folks prioritized long gun training? I am in a fairly urban area and would love to own numerous rifles and shotguns, but as a very budget conscious person (aka broke) feel that spending most of my money and time concentrating on pistols, hand to hand skills, and fitness would be much more worth my efforts.

I know that long guns are more effective and easier to get accurate hits with but it seems that the opportunities to use them will be so rare for the average joe that it isn't worth taking away from the building other skills that the other folks here have mentioned.



A carbine requires far less training and practice to be useful than a pistol. Therefore becoming and remaining proficient with a carbine is not going to double your training budget.


Frankly - as someone who loves long gun training -- for the average civilian in an urban setting, barring massive social economic upheaval - I don't see long gun training as cost effective.
If you have a carbine - great, I think every able bodied person should own one (or more) - but when it comes down to it - odds are IF you will need a gun, it's a handgun -- handguns are harder to shoot than carbines - and the benefits of handgun trainings - is the trigger control will help carbine shooting, while most carbine shooting hurts pistol shooting...

I'm kind of a hypocrite when it comes to this - as I shoot probably 3-4x carbine than I do pistol, but mainly as I do rifle stuff for my day job - and pistol is something I fund myself...

[Mr_White]

Actually that's not true. What it shows is that Tom's guys do a good job of recognizing problems early that warrant a gun, getting their guns out before range closes, and hitting what they shoot at. If you can do that it never gets to an entanglement which is preferred.

It doesn't prove that robberies don't begin the way misanthropist suggested.

I see what you are saying and you are right. I guess what I was speaking to was more the near-total lack of injury suffered by his students, as opposed to actually getting socked in the face with a hard object like misanthropist described. But you're right, that doesn't speak to the ways they start.

[cclaxton]

Here is the info on the Tactical Conference. There is no better bang for your buck and you can sample the training of two dozen instructors from all over the country.

The 13th annual Tactical Conference will be conducted over three days: February 20-22, 2015 (Friday through Sunday). This prestigious event will be held at the excellent facilities of the Memphis Police Department Training Academy. There will be classroom seminars, hands-on training segments, and a live-fire tactical pistol match scheduled over all three days. The Academy has multiple classrooms and multiple live-fire ranges, which will allow for live-fire blocks of instruction running current with the defensive pistol match and the classroom lectures. Participants may attend as many training blocks as time permits. All training segments, the pistol match, and a prize drawing are included in the entry fee. There are no other costs/fees.

The pistol match involves realistic scenarios and reactive mannequin targets that only fall when struck with solid, vital-zone hits. Target identification and discrimination are involved, along with shooting under stressful and realistic conditions. Only daily carry street guns and gear are allowed, and you will need about 100 rounds of ammunition.

The 2015 Tactical Conference will feature an impressive list of trainers. So far, the faculty roster includes John Farnam, Massad Ayoob,Tom Givens, Southnarc, Paul Sharp, Steve Moses, Wayne Dobbs, Darryl Bolke, Karl Rehn, John Hearne, Chuck Haggard, Jim Higginbotham, Dr. Martin Topper, Andrew Branca, John Murphy, William Aprill, and many more—over twenty trainers in all. This is a rare opportunity to take part in knife, empty-hand, handgun, emergency medical, and tactics training all in one location. The entry fee of $299 represents the best value for your training dollar in the entire industry. This event fills early every year, as space is strictly limited. So it’s best to register as early as possible to avoid disappointment.

Go to rangemaster.com to register.
I am registered. I may be way out of my league, but I don't want to miss learning what I can from this fantastic list of trainers. If anyone else from Northern Virginia is willing to rideshare, let me know via PM.
Cody

[GardoneVT]

Applied skill is necessary, to be sure. A handgun is worse then useless without skill on the part of the user.

That being said, I personally hold that an individual should be trained to ID a threat . When a thug attempted to carjack me , he didn't send me a text message first as courtesy notification. I picked up his presence in a strange area of the parking lot, and at that moment he started turning ten yards to three. At the three yard mark I'd made up my mind to draw and take cover in front of the hood of my car once he presented a weapon, I placed my car key in the drivers side lock, and cleared my jacket to acquire my pistol.

At that point Mr Thug realized what was going to happen next, and accomplished the fastest right face I've ever seen in person. I shudder to think of how that would have turned out if I'd had my head in my smartphone reading ESPN highlights.

Being a great shot at fifty yards is well and good, but you're toast if the thug IDs you before you ID him.

[Tamara]

BOKs? LOL.....who the hell walks around with any first aid kit, let alone one that is useful to treat bullet holes when they go about their typical civilian day armed? And wtf good does it do to know how to treat bullet holes when you don't have what you need to do it? Giving first aid to someone who you just shot for assaulting you?

I think you misunderstand my reason for keeping a kit in my car/range bag/Maxpedition. It has nothing to do with any kind of fantasy gunfight.

[HeadHunter]

FWIW, here is my task analysis for The Armed Citizen Jan - Jun 2014. Yes, yes, I know it's anecdotal but so is everything else pertaining to civilians. At least mine has some semblance of organization and record keeping to it.

Retrieve from Storage (handgun) 32%
Move safely from place to place at ready 22%
Draw to shoot 20%
Challenge from ready 15%
Intervene in another's situation 15%
Draw to challenge 12%
Engage from ready (handgun) 12%
Hold at gunpoint until police arrive 12%
Retrieve from Storage (unknown) 10%
Shoot with non-threats downrange 10%
Draw to ready (seated in auto) 7%
Engage multiple adversaries 7%
Challenge with non-threats downrange 7%
Shoot menacing animal 7%
Shoot in midst of others 7%
Draw to ready 5%
Struggle 5%
Retrieve from Storage (shotgun) 5%
Draw pistol from wife's purse 2%
ID with flashlight 2%
Shoot animal from grounded position 2%
Shoot with shotgun 2%
Retrieve from Storage (rifle) 0%
Reload 0%

I'll post an analysis of things that went wrong in a day or two. As a hint, there's nothing about caliber, type of pistol, ammo capacity, spare ammo, or marksmanship prowess in there. Surprise, surprise, surprise!

[Tamara]

FWIW, here is my task analysis for The Armed Citizen Jan - Jun 2014. Yes, yes, I know it's anecdotal but so is everything else pertaining to civilians. At least mine has some semblance of organization and record keeping to it.

Will you be doing likewise with S.W.A.T.'s "Good Guys Win!" column? ;)

[Alpha Sierra]

I think you misunderstand my reason for keeping a kit in my car/range bag/Maxpedition. It has nothing to do with any kind of fantasy gunfight.

I don't know what your reason is. I never speculated what it is. And frankly doesn't concern me in the least.

[Dagga Boy]

I think she is saying you are likely at some point in life to witness or be in a car accident, or if you spend enough time on ranges, somebody may get hurt. The reason I have some aid kits in my vehicle and range bag is mainly to be able to provide some immediate aid to myself, my family, or my students. I don't ever want to use them. Truthfully, I do better dishing out injuries than treating them and I want to keep it that way.

On a side note based on some conversations with Chuck Haggard, most people will be FAR more useful and a realistic aid to LE and emergency crews during any kind of active shooter or terrorist incident by providing critical first aid than running to their car to get their carbine and personal civilian active shooter kit.

[Mike Pipes]

Will you be doing likewise with S.W.A.T.'s "Good Guys Win!" column? ;)

Tamara,I'm enjoying your column! Keep it up....cya mike

[NETim]

I think she is saying you are likely at some point in life to witness or be in a car accident, or if you spend enough time on ranges, somebody may get hurt. The reason I have some aid kits in my vehicle and range bag is mainly to be able to provide some immediate aid to myself, my family, or my students. I don't ever want to use them. Truthfully, I do better dishing out injuries than treating them and I want to keep it that way.

On a side note based on some conversations with Chuck Haggard, most people will be FAR more useful and a realistic aid to LE and emergency crews during any kind of active shooter or terrorist incident by providing critical first aid than running to their car to get their carbine and personal civilian active shooter kit.

Seems like a darn good way to get shot.

[Chuck Haggard]

Seems like a darn good way to get shot.

Exactly, and yet I regularly hear people talking about carbines in the trunk ..............

[JM Campbell]

Exactly, and yet I regularly hear people talking about carbines in the trunk ..............

After having my F250 stolen awhile back I will never leave a firearm in a vehicle as a "truck/trunk gun".

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

[Chuck Haggard]

After having my F250 stolen awhile back I will never leave a firearm in a vehicle as a "truck/trunk gun".

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

Unsecured loaded guns are a bit of a raw nerve for me right now. Our guy that was murdered last month was killed with a freshly stolen handgun that was taken in a burglary.

It does our 2A rights no good at all for us to be arming criminals because we are too lazy to lock our shit up when we ain't wearing it.

[JM Campbell]

Yes sir, I never leave a firearm in a vehicle, was definitely burned into my brain after the theft and thank god I can sleep at night without the worries of who might get capped with "my" stolen gun.



Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

[Tamara]

I don't know what your reason is. I never speculated what it is. And frankly doesn't concern me in the least.

Ah, tracking you now. When you asked who the hell walks around with a BOK and was it for (and I quote) "Giving first aid to someone who you just shot for assaulting you?", you meant those other people and not me. We're cool, then. :)

(Although, to the topic of "Why keep a blowout kit handy?", it's generally because I'd feel really stupid if I accidentally shot myself holstering up after going to the post office and didn't have so much as a band-aid to put on the boo-boo while waiting for the EMTs... :o A situation like that or accidentally busting a cap into my own leg at the range are the reasons I took the gunshot wound self-care class. )

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Yes Fred, it was Gen. Kiraly. A stunningly excellent teacher. Interestingly, he shut down incipient commandos who wanted to call him General in class. He emphasized theory and analysis as compared to who had the big gun. I regarded him as crucial in my intellectual development about analyzing issues.

Funny, I was taking my daughter to the library for her to do some research and we were near the books on Hungary. I found one while she was working that had a picture and description of him. She was impressed.

I wrote a paper on the comparision of the Naval Limitation Treaties before WWII and current attempts (at that time) for nuclear disarmament. He give me an A and said it was an excellent essay. One of the few times, I really felt proud of a teacher's feedback.

PS - as far as the first aid stuff in the car - seen enough deep cuts out in the country to have more than a band aid. Also, car crashes. Never know when you might see a giant UFO hovering over San Antonio and I don't have a Mac laptop to hack it.

[cclaxton]

Unsecured loaded guns are a bit of a raw nerve for me right now. Our guy that was murdered last month was killed with a freshly stolen handgun that was taken in a burglary.

It does our 2A rights no good at all for us to be arming criminals because we are too lazy to lock our shit up when we ain't wearing it.
I want to reinforce this thought as well. I now have three portable Gun Safe's, plus my regular gun safe. I don't leave any guns laying around the house or just sitting outside the safe. Once I get back from a match they get put away in a safe except for the one on my hip. I also use steel cables to tether the portable gun safe to the vehicle. I also tether my long gun cases with steel cable.

It's not just protecting them from theft, but protecting them from untrained family members, guests, and anyone I don't personally authorize to hold/use.

If the mother of the Newtown Shooter had done the same, possibly could have saved those kids.
Cody

[RBid]

Seems like a darn good way to get shot.

Not necessarily.

We actually have a lot of information that makes nyeti's and Chuck's comment ring very true, and probably indicate that there is substantially more opportunity to safely impact the outcome by delivery of aid and supplies than there would be through attempting to get to a kit and return to the fight. A quick rundown:

1. active shooter events tend to be very short, and injuries don't heal as fast as these events end. By the time a person gets to a kit and begins heading toward a place where they can provide help (not the same as returning to where the shooting is actively taking place), the gunfire is very likely to be over. In the time it takes a person to exit, get to a vehicle, grab gear, and return to the area, a person with an "active shooter kit" is almost guaranteed to be worthless, and makes a very conspicuous target. On the other hand, a person who returned with medical supplies is likely to find people who are bleeding.

2. As I touched on in parentheses above, a person providing medical support doesn't have to go where the shooting is. Most people will be running away from that place, so injured people may very well come to the provider. Again, it is also very possible that the shooting is over by the time the supplies have been secured, so the shooting area may very well be safe, and the provider may be able to stabilize badly injured people who were unable to flee the space where things started.

3. When emergency responders come, I think it would be a much safer thing to be seen attending to a victim than it would be to be standing in the middle of carnage with a weapon out.


All of the above aside, accidents happen, and traffic is a Thing. Having the ability to provide attention, or to provide supplies to a scene where a victim is lucky enough to have had a medical professional among those on hand, is a very powerful thing. Many lives have been saved by prepared samaritans.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

[RBid]

Seems like a darn good way to get shot.

...and after I typed out the above post, coffee kicked in and I realized that your words referenced the bolded part of the post you quoted.

I'm going to leave the other post up in case any lurkers need a nudge in the direction of building a medical response kit instead of a (ridiculous) active shooter kit, but I would also like to say...


my bad, sir. I agree 100%.

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[RJ]

Well, take this for what it's worth, which is: thoughts from a non-inner-circle PFcommer, a Canadian, and a guy who spends twenty times as much time on tactics as on technical shooting skills:

I remember the original question being something about "what skills should a typical CCWer have/type and frequency of training etc"

I just drank a bacon ceasar so I'm overly confident and am going to say what I actually think is the answer to this question.



IMO, if you carry a gun, you need to be able to put rounds on target at close range but not much more. If I could only see one or the other, I'd rather see people shooting confidently from retention at contact range than expertly on a 3x5 at 25 under ideal conditions.

Before you put rounds on target you need to access your gun, and you're not doing that until things have gone pretty wrong - which quite possibly means there's someone on top of you, kicking your ass. So you need the boxing and grappling skills to manage the beating you may well take, and either get to your gun, or protect it from your assailant while you utilize other options.

Before you take that beating, you need the de-selection/de-escalation skills of managing encroachment problems before they become contact problems. So you have to have the combination of verbal and mental wherewithal to project enough force on approaching predators that they select easier meals.




That's why I tell everyone to take ECQC. Honestly, although I like high-skill shooting...I don't think it's especially critical for 99% of situations. I think a guy with 12 months of boxing and jujitsu and 6 hours of pistol fundamentals could eat the lunches of the overwhelming majority of assailants. I think a guy with 12 months of pistol training and 6 hours of boxing and jujitsu could provide a very good pistol and wallet to most assailants.


So that is my answer to the original question. A typical CCWer should focus on developing skills that involve coping with getting punched in the head or outflanked at a gas station by a guy who bottles you as his friend distracts you.

Missed this until today, lot of good comments here.

As a 'Average CCW' participant in the thread, would ya'll say that unarmed fighting skills (Karate, Judo) would be useful as a compliment to Marksmanship or USPSA-type competition?

At age 56 I'm weighing getting back into Judo or Karate as a means of enhancing my personal fitness. I'd done this in my younger days (when dinosaurs walked the earth) but it had not occurred to me it might help in an encounter with a Goblin.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Maybe this is not surprising but I think it's critical. I'd jump on Judo classes for sure. There's nothing like grappling skill to help you control a situation long enough to get to your gun.

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[RJ]

Got it thanks.

I have fonder memories of Judo than Karate, anyways.

[sly fox]

One down side of judo is if you have any injuries it can be a bit hard on the body, I train sambo which has similar throws and my body's pretty busted
up from training different arts for many years, and its pretty unforgiving sometimes.. If you have a few injuries Brazilian Jiu Jitsu's probably a better fit
than judo

[Glenn E. Meyer]

You are not going to get the average CCW type (who doesn't even carry his or her gun most of the time) to take judo classes. To return to the OP, you might get them to take some easy escape combatives (like the RAD classes). Yes, I took Judo a thousand years ago. Probably wouldn't do that now anymore - sigh. I do recall thinking in a FOF a year or two ago, that my 'attacker' was set up for a move. However, I verbally convinced him to leave me alone. I also could have 'shot' him but my verbal skills managed to move him out of the path to the door and assuage his anger. Worked out better than front fall, side fall, back fall - oh, my poor old knees now.

Not putting down such training but returning to the motivation of the average folks and cross that with physical ability of most as we age. That will determine whether you might be the older or middle aged average CCW person to engage in such.

[NETim]

Middle age brings with it certain advantages. Any attacking bad guy will certainly be overwhelmed, at least temporarily, by the deafening sound of joints creaking and popping, not to mention the Geritol fumes. I'll make an easy, hobbling escape. If they persist in their attack, the progressive grind on my glasses can provide an instant death ray at ranges up to 12 yards or so, even on a moderately sunny day.

;)

[Drang]

You are not going to get the average CCW type (who doesn't even carry his or her gun most of the time) to take judo classes. To return to the OP, you might get them to take some easy escape combatives (like the RAD classes). Yes, I took Judo a thousand years ago. Probably wouldn't do that now anymore - sigh. I do recall thinking in a FOF a year or two ago, that my 'attacker' was set up for a move. However, I verbally convinced him to leave me alone. I also could have 'shot' him but my verbal skills managed to move him out of the path to the door and assuage his anger. Worked out better than front fall, side fall, back fall - oh, my poor old knees now.

Not putting down such training but returning to the motivation of the average folks and cross that with physical ability of most as we age. That will determine whether you might be the older or middle aged average CCW person to engage in such.
I concur. The VA says there's nothing wrong with me, but they should try and tackle stairs when the arthritis and bursitis are acting up.
And while the "typical" concealed carry permit holder may not be wheelchair bound or have similar disabilities, what do you tell them?
OTOH, in one of my earliest blog posts (The Clue Meter: But will it replace shuffleboard? (http://thecluemeter.blogspot.com/2008/07/but-will-it-replace-shuffleboard.html)) I linked to a Wall Street Journal article entitled Everybody Is 'Cane Fu' Fighting At Senior Centers, So Watch Out - WSJ (http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB121582129325447667?mod=googlenews_wsj&mg=reno64-wsj&url=http%3A%2F%2Fonline.wsj.com%2Farticle%2FSB1215 82129325447667.html%3Fmod%3Dgooglenews_wsj). (Old enough that it's out from behind the pay wall. There were videos, to, but I lost track of them.)
Apparently, some Senior Centers are teaching escrima. Which might work for some seniors and others with disabilities.

One thing I worry about is that talk of what training someone with a carry permit "should" get will lead to an impression that "If they don't, they shouldn't carry." (Note: NOT saying anyone here believes or suggested that.)
Myself, I think Eddie Eagle should be required in elementary schools, and Home Firearm Safety in Junior High, but after that, anything else should be "encouraged" but optional.
(Private ranges should be tax-exempt, to encourage safe firearms handling!)

[rob_s]

what do you tell them?

I think you tell them, more than any other single thing, is to pull their head out of their ass.

I work in an urban downtown environment with a corner office where I can see a pretty major downtown street, and it is flabbergasting how oblivious these people are. I have watched people walk right out in front of cars, sometimes while not even being on/looking at their phones!

I keep going back to the idea that the best way to avoid a problem is to not do stupid shit with stupid people in stupid places. Even good people who have had to use guns or other means to defend themselves have violated one or more of those rules. They are at an ATM at 1 AM. Or they went with their wife's sister to go get her TV back from her methed-up boyfriend, or whatever.

That's the best thing I've learned from being involved in the shooting community over the years. Watch other people. Keep an eye on your surroundings. Try to face the door. Be super judgmental about the other people you come across in day to day life (looks like thug, probably is thug), etc. THAT's the kind of thing we should probably be trying to "train" the average CCWer on. It's what I've tried to get various women in my life over the years to understand and modify their behavior.

[RJ]

Ok, please bear with me for a second, I'd like to post a follow up. This relates to the judo /grappling thing, or maybe just before things get to even that point.

Say the scenarios are, in escalating order::

1 - unknown person (UP) is sighted, picked up because SA is high. (E.g. Loitering in a parking garage)

2 - UP does something "unusual" or out of line with "normal", but not perceived as threatening (yet). (E.g. "Hey, have you got the time, Bro?")

3 - UP THEN says or does something threatening. ("Hey, that's a nice Rolex, Bro.")

So what I'm interested in, again, as an 'average CCW holder', is training to deal with this particular phase of the encounter.

Questions like:

How do you keep SA high? Are there things / techniques an average citizen can do specifically? (Scenario 1)

Is there anything one can do to deal with 'unusual' behavior that is not threatening? Create space? Turn, stop and keep under visual? (Scenario 2)

Ok, so (Scenario 3), what do I say to make this UP back off? when do I reveal I have a pistol? When do I place my hand on the grip? When do I draw, aim, and start the trigger press?

Is there a course that teaches this kind of stuff? I guess it might not be 'tactics' I guess, but as an average CCW holder these are the things I'm interested in knowing.

Thanks. Awesome thread.

Rich

[Tom Givens]

LLando,

You are exactly describing the curriculum of Southnarc's Managing Unknown Contacts course work. MUC is a must do class for anyone serious about self defense.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

I have about 1 millionth the credibility of Tom Givens but I would say exactly the same thing. If I hadn't read his post I would have typed the following:

"You are describing EXACTLY what Southnarc's MUC segments teach. Check out an ECQC class for sure."

[RJ]

LLando,

You are exactly describing the curriculum of Southnarc's Managing Unknown Contacts course work. MUC is a must do class for anyone serious about self defense.

Ty Sir.

I did some googling and came away mighty impressed with some of the videos and interviews SN's courses are featured in, but wasn't quite sure how they fit in.

Definitely will look into this. Much obliged.

Rich

[NETim]

Here's a .pdf on "MUC" written by the man himself:

http://modern-prepper.com/download/tactics/Managing%20Unknown%20Contacts.pdf

[RJ]

Here's a .pdf on "MUC" written by the man himself:

http://modern-prepper.com/download/tactics/Managing%20Unknown%20Contacts.pdf

Thank you so much. Was wondering what this MUC I keep seeing was.

Great practical reference. Lot of answers to my questions there. Appreciate it.

[Dagga Boy]

Thank you so much. Was wondering what this MUC I keep seeing was.

Great practical reference. Lot of answers to my questions there. Appreciate it.

Yeah, around here its like being at a Stars Trek convention when you don't speak Klingon......or was that Star Wars...:confused:?

[Alpha Sierra]

I think you tell them, more than any other single thing, is to pull their head out of their ass.


You ain't kidding. I spent a few days in Chicago out by Ohare a few weeks ago. One night I took the blue line to meet my niece further into the city. As I stood at the platform I lost count of the people that I could have cold cocked, sucker punched, pushed onto the tracks, or ripped their purses/murses with near impunity.

Virtually everyone had their head up their collective asses either daydreaming with earbuds in or engrossed in some trivial bullshit on their phone.

[Guinnessman]

You ain't kidding. I spent a few days in Chicago out by Ohare a few weeks ago. One night I took the blue line to meet my niece further into the city. As I stood at the platform I lost count of the people that I could have cold cocked, sucker punched, pushed onto the tracks, or ripped their purses/murses with near impunity.

Virtually everyone had their head up their collective asses either daydreaming with earbuds in or engrossed in some trivial bullshit on their phone.

The subway in Chicago (well actually all of Chicago) is one of the last places I would bury my head in my phone and try to ignore the world around me. Most people around town are oblivious to their surroundings and are in their own utopia. Then again insert (Big name city here) and the same is true for those cities as well.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Yeah, while I am not especially prone to the whole "big cities are dens of vice and violence" thing, when I have spent time in places like Chicago or New York, my preference is to keep my back to a platform wall. And I'll only check my phone if I have someone there to keep their eyes open.

I'm lucky in that I'm usually traveling with my wife, who is pretty switched on.

Although maybe it's worth considering that the reason a lot of people are buried in their phones is that they've taken the train thousands of times without ever seeing a violent crime. .

I'll admit that in my own city, I can be pretty lax about security when taking the train. I don't do outrageously stupid stuff but I'm not remotely worried about getting mugged. I'd have to see a group of half-drunk guys in their mid-twenties coming from a sports bar on UFC night for me to worry.

Granted, this is Canada and I'm a big guy. But mainly I've just never seen a violent crime on our train system. And my wife, who commutes by train every day, has only felt nervous twice. And neither time amounted to anything. And of the guys I work with who commute by train, nobody has a single good story involving actual danger.

So conceivably the people who are buried in their phones are just experienced commuters.

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[TR675]

Spending the weekend in NOLA. Good lord. One day in the French Quarter and I realize how blasé I've been all my life.

Love it, though.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Boy, yeah. Friday and Saturday night down there make me crazy trying to stay alert and ready.

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[TR675]

Someone on TPI just posted a video of a strong arm robbery right around the corner from here that happened just a few days ago. Good reminder.

[Tamara]

The subway in Chicago (well actually all of Chicago) is one of the last places I would bury my head in my phone and try to ignore the world around me. Most people around town are oblivious to their surroundings and are in their own utopia. Then again insert (Big name city here) and the same is true for those cities as well.

I remember eating an early breakfast at Salonica in Hyde Park and watching agog as some dude blissfully pedaled diagonally across the intersection of 57th and Blackstone on his cupholder-equipped commuter bicycle with the trademark white cords trailing from his ears. I... just... no.


Although maybe it's worth considering that the reason a lot of people are buried in their phones is that they've taken the train thousands of times without ever seeing a violent crime.

How could they have? They're buried in their phones. ;) Seriously, though, to me that's just one of those things like "Billy Bob's driven home from the bar every night for fifteen years without hittin' nothing."

[Jay Cunningham]

2681

Kids today... back in my day we etc. !

[Byron]

Kids today... back in my day we etc. !

Indeed


With the advent of cheap newspapers and superior means of locomotion... the dreamy quiet old days are over... for men now live think and work at express speed. They have their Mercury or Post laid on their breakfast table in the early morning, and if they are too hurried to snatch from it the news during that meal, they carry it off, to be sulkily read as they travel... leaving them no time to talk with the friend who may share the compartment with them... the hurry and bustle of modern life... lacks the quiet and repose of the period when our forefathers, the day's work done, took their ease...
- William Smith Morley - 1886


http://xkcd.com/1227/

The more things change, the more they stay the same.


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[GJM]

This may be dating myself, but back in the Walkman days, I always believed that it made sense in urban areas to walk around with the Walkman hooked up, but the music off. I assumed, but never tested in real life, that could buy you extra reaction time, since the bad guy would assume you had music up and couldn't hear them.

[MVS]

This may be dating myself, but back in the Walkman days, I always believed that it made sense in urban areas to walk around with the Walkman hooked up, but the music off. I assumed, but never tested in real life, that could buy you extra reaction time, since the bad guy would assume you had music up and couldn't hear them.

Though maybe a good way to bait, wouldn't the potential time it could buy you be outweighed by the possibility that it would make you a more likely target in the first place?

[KevinB]

Though maybe a good way to bait, wouldn't the potential time it could buy you be outweighed by the possibility that it would make you a more likely target in the first place?

I usually look down towards my phone when looking around rooms etc., and not trying to look like I'm casing the joint...

[Maple Syrup Actual]

How could they have? They're buried in their phones. ;) Seriously, though, to me that's just one of those things like "Billy Bob's driven home from the bar every night for fifteen years without hittin' nothing."

Honestly, if I knew someone who'd driven home from the bar every night for fifteen years and never had a problem, if someone asked me if I thought it seemed likely that he'd have a problem tonight, I'd say no. Maybe he's gotten lucky 5500 times in a row, but I'd personally conclude that whatever he was doing appeared to be relatively low-risk.

[Tamara]

Kids today... back in my day we etc. !

Reading back over the last several posts, I can't see where anybody has suggested that inattentiveness in public was some kind of new phenomenon, although I don't recall as much actual preambulating while reading the Chicago Tribune held up in front of people's faces, possibly due to aerodynamic reasons and possibly because it actually blocked vision rather than merely absorbing attention and most people don't understand that the latter can be almost as bad as the former.

As far as speakers over the ears in public, I know I nearly got hit by a car while riding my bike listening to a portable cassette player before there ever was a Macintosh, let alone an iPod to plug into it.

[sly fox]

This is a great thread, I myself am pretty new to firearms and a lot of the courses mentioned seemed to predispose a reasonable
amount of competency.

Im a recent CCW holder, I took an introduction to pistol class and a CCW class, one thing i find confusing is the sheer amount
of training options available with so many people offering training and how to gauge training being worthwhile. Prior to doing
the intro and ccw I had a special forces veteran friend give me a 'lesson', it was about as much use as a chocolate tea pot
because despite being very competent himself it was a bit of a 'point it and do it' affair and he certainly couldn't communicate
what he was doing which put me off a bit..

I try and dry fire everyday and am going to the range once or twice a week on top of that
I'm a bit dinged up at the moment and train Russian Sambo one or two times a week as I'm recovering and strength and conditioning
five times a week on the non-firearms side.

In terms of basic training courses what should you look for or at a basic level does it matter that much? Any tips and wisdom would be greatly
appreciated

[Mike Pipes]

Sly fox....read as many aar"s as you can find and see what appeals to you......hits in dallas is a good place to start............good luck....cya retro

[sly fox]

Sly fox....read as many aar"s as you can find and see what appeals to you......hits in dallas is a good place to start............good luck....cya retro

Thanks Mike, will do

[NETim]

Sly fox....read as many aar"s as you can find and see what appeals to you......hits in dallas is a good place to start............good luck....cya retro

Never been there but I hear good things about them and the guys that run it post here on a regular basis. They seem to be good guys although they might need to harden up some.


:)

[Mike Pipes]

NETim.....HiTS is a gunfightin school like Thuder Ranch.The range ain't near as sophisticated but the instruction is......cya Retro

[NETim]

NETim.....HiTS is a gunfightin school like Thuder Ranch.The range ain't near as sophisticated but the instruction is......cya Retro

Oh I have absolutely no doubt it's a great school. I like what they have to say and what they emphasize in their training (accuracy.) I've been considering going to one of their classes.

Just having some fun with my buddy Nyeti is all. :)

[Dagga Boy]

I knew what you were trying to do.......It just wasn't funny....Its gunfighting, so Harden the F*$& Up ;). I swear all that weed is getting over the border up there from Colorado......:p.

[rob_s]

You ain't kidding. I spent a few days in Chicago out by Ohare a few weeks ago. One night I took the blue line to meet my niece further into the city. As I stood at the platform I lost count of the people that I could have cold cocked, sucker punched, pushed onto the tracks, or ripped their purses/murses with near impunity.

Virtually everyone had their head up their collective asses either daydreaming with earbuds in or engrossed in some trivial bullshit on their phone.


The subway in Chicago (well actually all of Chicago) is one of the last places I would bury my head in my phone and try to ignore the world around me. Most people around town are oblivious to their surroundings and are in their own utopia. Then again insert (Big name city here) and the same is true for those cities as well.


Yeah, while I am not especially prone to the whole "big cities are dens of vice and violence" thing, when I have spent time in places like Chicago or New York, my preference is to keep my back to a platform wall. And I'll only check my phone if I have someone there to keep their eyes open.

I'm lucky in that I'm usually traveling with my wife, who is pretty switched on.

Although maybe it's worth considering that the reason a lot of people are buried in their phones is that they've taken the train thousands of times without ever seeing a violent crime. .

I'll admit that in my own city, I can be pretty lax about security when taking the train. I don't do outrageously stupid stuff but I'm not remotely worried about getting mugged. I'd have to see a group of half-drunk guys in their mid-twenties coming from a sports bar on UFC night for me to worry.

Granted, this is Canada and I'm a big guy. But mainly I've just never seen a violent crime on our train system. And my wife, who commutes by train every day, has only felt nervous twice. And neither time amounted to anything. And of the guys I work with who commute by train, nobody has a single good story involving actual danger.

So conceivably the people who are buried in their phones are just experienced commuters.

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FWIW, my post wasn't so much about the fact that it's an urban area (it's actually pretty much the up-scaliest of the urban areas around here) but just that I get to see a volume of people doing stupid shit from my perch. Other amusing things include watching people try to parallel park, and the occasional skateboarder getting harassed by segway cops.

[Salamander]

I respectfully disagree. Between San Jose and Sacramento these instructors have been in Northern California in the past 18 months. It's a bit of an "all star" cast, really....



I've been at some of those classes you cite, and I'll be at more like them in the future.

But those places that you consider north are south for me. They're anywhere from five to seven hours drive from here. Now I'm there once a month at least for work, and even if I wasn't obviously I'm willing to go there to get training with the right people, and maybe a lot more distance than that for the right opportunity. Most people won't, though. How do we entice the average CCW'er to go to the training if they're in one of those 500 mile gaps between major urban centers that aren't uncommon in the west? Or alternatively, and maybe more practically, how do we encourage the local instructor to step up his/her game?

[Salamander]

The subway in Chicago (well actually all of Chicago) is one of the last places I would bury my head in my phone and try to ignore the world around me. Most people around town are oblivious to their surroundings and are in their own utopia. Then again insert (Big name city here) and the same is true for those cities as well.

A lot depends when you ride the subway, and which one. I spent 15 years doing the daily commute to downtown Chicago on the Red Line, and it's a great place to people watch.

A few general observations:

Rush hour on the north and northwest side lines (red, blue, brown) is largely harried commuters. That's when iPods and phones and lack of awareness really abound. They assume it's safety in numbers, and a lot of them are kids fresh out of a great plains Big 10 university with very little urban experience. However I've personally helped break up two pickpocket incidents on crowded Chicago rush hour trains, and in both cases 98% of the riders never knew anything happened even though I'm pretty sure one of the perps left with a cracked rib.

Early morning, before 6:30 am, there are lots of factory workers headed for the early shift on not yet very crowded trains. Lots of older immigrants with poor English, and a lot of them catch a nap on the ride. I guess it probably feels pretty safe relative to wherever they came from.

Later weeknights, 10:00 pm when I often used to ride home after work, marathon training, and a cooldown at the gym and then dinner downtown, it's still largely urban professional types but not crowded and generally people are much more aware. Not sure I ever saw very many people buried in books or phones later in the evening, the wildlife is coming out by then and it's in general a more motivated and aware batch of people staying downtown that late, supplemented by retail workers getting off at 9:00 who also tend to be more aware.

Weekends it's back to blissful oblivion with lots of suburban folks in town.

I'll always remember a 20-something year old friend from small-city Oregon who moved to Chicago for a while, the first day he rode downtown with me on the Red Line he was trying to say hi to total strangers and getting stared at like some kind of space alien. I had to kick him at least three times and point out some bottom feeder staring at the wallet sticking out of his pocket or the camera over his shoulder. Two months later and with a little guidance he was a hardened city boy and he never had any trouble.

Ah yes, I miss the big city. Occasionally, and for a little while.

[Wondering Beard]

Aah, the Chicago subway...

Nope, I don't regret leaving at all.