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ST911
10-07-2014, 08:35 PM
Earlier this summer, I found some unusual wear on the hammer nose bushing of my S&W model 442-2. It started as minor deformation at or about the viewer’s 3:00 position (shooter’s 9:00) in the photo below. As it was causing no issues at the time, I elected to watch it as it progressively increased to what you see pictured.

In early August, I shot 94 rounds through this 442 during an IDPA match. After the match, I noted all new deformation at 6:00 on the bushing. There also seemed to be a faint crack developing across it, but I was unable to capture it in the photo.

This gun is serial number DCU####, in service since ~04/2011, and has fired 1,819 rounds to date.

L/R View

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW442/IMG_1148a.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW442/IMG_1150a.jpg

Fast response from my S&W LE rep got a call tag to me quickly (8/11) and I shipped the gun to MA. I heard back from the factory on or about 08/27 and learned the gun was not repairable. Staff in MA requested an FFL for shipment of a replacement, which was transmitted with receipt confirmed on 08/29. Noting that the gun was a no-lock 442, a replacement without a lock was specifically requested. Status checks to MA thereafter on 09/08 and 09/22 have gone unanswered.

As I await that response and replacement, does anyone have any theories on causality? Is it a simple part quality anomaly, or are there other visible indications of a larger issue with this particular frame? Armorer inspection revealed all else to be in spec, with no excess play or other problem. A check of a couple dozen other Js shows no similar wear patterns. That includes a 642 BUG at ~2k rounds (documented), and others with higher counts (reported). I do perceive some greater visible wear compared to some of those others, but that’s subjective.

All thoughts appreciated.

Chuck Haggard
10-07-2014, 08:53 PM
I've never seen, or even heard, of such a parts failure.

Edmo
10-07-2014, 11:12 PM
Did you have any primers punctured by the firing pin? It almost looks like burn damage?

I've been disappointed with S&W quality lately, but very happy with their customer service. They should take care of your problem. If you have questions about your replacement call their CS phone line.

OBTW, they will also reimburse you any FFL transfer fees... If they haven't offered, just ask.

Edmo

ST911
10-07-2014, 11:13 PM
Did you have any primers punctured by the firing pin? It almost looks like burn damage...

Edmo

None known.

LSP972
10-08-2014, 06:04 AM
I have two pistols showing this sort of breech face erosion; a Glock 19, and an HK45C. I have seen it on a few other brands, but never on a revolver.

I have tried everything I know of to localize the cause, and have pretty much eliminated the ammunition. There were simply NO signs of primer blow-by or other gas leakage.

The only thing remaining is metal fatigue/failure, I suppose. Perhaps Bill Riehl or another engineer type has more gouge.

My G19 is a Bowie custom, so no sense in sending that slide in; they'll tell me to pound sand. The HK isn't as bad, so I've decided to just keep shooting it. It hasn't gotten any worse in the past year or so, but if it does I'll send it to HK and see what happens.

The G19 I've semi-retired; it has actual HOLES in the breech face around the striker hole. It still works, but no sense in tempting fate. And no, I haven't fired any "green" ammo through either pistol. That stuff is known for this, I hear, due to the primers or something.

.

HCM
10-08-2014, 10:25 AM
Could the part have had voids when cast / mim'ed like the subject of BLR's Why through hardening matters thread ?

Sorry cant link from my phone

LSP972
10-08-2014, 01:21 PM
While I wouldn't put it past S&W to use MIM in such an important area as the firing pin bushing, AFAIK these parts are still made from real steel.

And the the breech faces on my Glock and HK aren't MIM; the G19 is eaten up every bit as bad as this revolver.

Bizarre, to say the least.

.

Hambo
10-08-2014, 02:08 PM
The only thing I ever saw that looked close was a M700 bolt face pock marked by rounds loaded with improper powder. Not saying that happened here as you'd have noticed other signs real quick, just that it looks similar.

JodyH
10-08-2014, 02:32 PM
I'm guessing "green" primers in your ammo.
Probably done on purpose or by mistake during the "great ammo famine of 2013-2014" when primers and powder were scarce and manufacturers were shoving bullets into cases willy nilly.
I've seen a lot of weird ammo over the past year and a half or so.

WDW
10-08-2014, 03:46 PM
I have two pistols showing this sort of breech face erosion; a Glock 19, and an HK45C. I have seen it on a few other brands, but never on a revolver.

I have tried everything I know of to localize the cause, and have pretty much eliminated the ammunition. There were simply NO signs of primer blow-by or other gas leakage.

The only thing remaining is metal fatigue/failure, I suppose. Perhaps Bill Riehl or another engineer type has more gouge.

My G19 is a Bowie custom, so no sense in sending that slide in; they'll tell me to pound sand. The HK isn't as bad, so I've decided to just keep shooting it. It hasn't gotten any worse in the past year or so, but if it does I'll send it to HK and see what happens.

The G19 I've semi-retired; it has actual HOLES in the breech face around the striker hole. It still works, but no sense in tempting fate. And no, I haven't fired any "green" ammo through either pistol. That stuff is known for this, I hear, due to the primers or something.

.

Don't be so sure....I had a heavily modified G21 frame once that was having some issues & they took it back, replaced it, no questions asked. I thought for sure I was on my own because I had removed the finger grooves & stippled it, but they didn't say a word about it.

Mike C
10-08-2014, 04:06 PM
I'm guessing "green" primers in your ammo.
Probably done on purpose or by mistake during the "great ammo famine of 2013-2014" when primers and powder were scarce and manufacturers were shoving bullets into cases willy nilly.
I've seen a lot of weird ammo over the past year and a half or so.

I completely agree. Especially with people I know who shoot commercially remanufactured stuff. That is exactly the reason why I roll my own when ever possible. Unless we're talking defensive loads. That way I know exactly what is going through my guns. If I have an issue I can source back everything to a brand, lot number, purchase date and location.

Skintop911 I seriously hope you get your replacement soon.

HCM
10-08-2014, 04:15 PM
I'm guessing "green" primers in your ammo.
Probably done on purpose or by mistake during the "great ammo famine of 2013-2014" when primers and powder were scarce and manufacturers were shoving bullets into cases willy nilly.
I've seen a lot of weird ammo over the past year and a half or so.

Normally the brass for "green" ammo I've seen has larger flash holes to accomodate the "green" primers. What would happen if you put green primers in brass with standard flash holes ?

HCM
10-08-2014, 04:17 PM
Skintop911 I seriously hope you get your replacement soon.

Skintop,

My understanding is S&W makes the no lock guns in batches - if they don't have any in stock they may be waiting for the no lock next production run.

ST911
10-08-2014, 07:58 PM
FYI on ammo. This was a project gun as well as an EDC, so I kept a data book. Ammo ran the gamut. Here's the basic list.

CCI Blazer 158 TMJ +P
Speer 135 GDHP +P
Black Hills Ammunition 148 HBWC, 158 RNL (.38 LC), 158 SWC, 125 GDHP +P
Winchester 130 FMJ (USA), 110 STHP
Corbon 110 DPX, 80gr Glaser
Federal 130 FMJ RTP
PMC 132 FMJ
Magtech 158 LRN
Ultramax 148 HBWC, 158 SWC
Herters 158 FMJ
S&B 158 FMJ
3D 148 HBWC
Hornady 110 Critical Defense
Remington 101 Disintegrator Frang

The Remington Disintegrator (#LF38SA) is a lead free frangible, and the only green load on the list. Total for that load was 25 rounds. That list is also similar to what at least one other J shot during that time, which shows no issues.

45dotACP
10-08-2014, 08:08 PM
Normally the brass for "green" ammo I've seen has larger flash holes to accomodate the "green" primers. What would happen if you put green primers in brass with standard flash holes ?

An eco-friendly misfire?

A click, but no kumbaya?

Or the primer doesn't seat deep enough and will drag on the frame of the revolver giving you a....

Hippie Hangup!!

Okay, I'm done.

LSP972
10-09-2014, 06:53 AM
I'm guessing "green" primers in your ammo.
.

While that may be a possibility with my G19, as it has fired a lot of agency supplied factory ammunition, the HK45C has had very little factory stuff through it; perhaps 200 rounds of Remington ball in the green and white box, and another 120 rounds or so of HST and SXT; the rest of the 10K+ rounds has been my reloads, using WLP, Federal, and CCI large pistol primers. If I was getting primer blow-by, I would have seen it on the case heads. The pits on the HK breech face are scattered over the entire surface where the case head impacts, while the actual holes and deep pits in the G19's breech face are clustered around the striker opening. The striker/firing pin on both pistols are unblemished; which pretty much kills the green primer theory, as a trashed striker/firing pin is a trademark of that issue as I understand it.

.

LSP972
10-09-2014, 07:01 AM
Don't be so sure....I had a heavily modified G21 frame once that was having some issues & they took it back, replaced it, no questions asked. I thought for sure I was on my own because I had removed the finger grooves & stippled it, but they didn't say a word about it.

You might be right... but seeing as this slide has "Bowie Tactical Concepts" stamped on it very prominently... dunno.

In any event, I have others that are fine if I elect to go back to using these. The damaged one still works, so its in sort of "live storage" for that proverbial rainy day... anyway, glad they did the right thing for you. I'm just not going to potentially waste the time and postage for them to tell me tough bananas.

After all, Glocks- even one that is highly customized- are disposable pistols, right?;)

.

Alpha Sierra
10-09-2014, 12:00 PM
Whatever the cause, it affected the frame and the bushing, so I doubt it's an issue with the bushing's metallurgy alone.

JodyH
10-09-2014, 12:11 PM
Something impinged, eroded or corroded that area.
As has been pointed out the bushing and the frame both show damage so you can probably rule out a materials defect.
I'm guessing hot gasses or hot gasses plus particles blowing past the primer or a really nasty corrosive leaking from the primers or maybe a chemical reaction between some primer material and a lubricant or cleaner you used.

Alpha Sierra
10-09-2014, 12:34 PM
Something impinged, eroded or corroded that area.
As has been pointed out the bushing and the frame both show damage so you can probably rule out a materials defect.
I'm guessing hot gasses or hot gasses plus particles blowing past the primer or a really nasty corrosive leaking from the primers or maybe a chemical reaction between some primer material and a lubricant or cleaner you used.

Concur

Alpha Sierra
10-09-2014, 12:49 PM
While I wouldn't put it past S&W to use MIM in such an important area as the firing pin bushing, AFAIK these parts are still made from real steel.
MIM is not a material. It is a forming method.

I have no idea what alloy that bushing is made of, so I'll use an example of a material I am familiar with: 17-4 PH stainless in the H900 condition. The mechanical properties of it are identical whether the part is made through the MIM process of machined out of stock. The only change is about a 1 to 2 percent lower density to MIM vs wrought.

Terms like "real steel" don't add much to the technical discussion. However, parts made through the MIM method have certain design rules/guidelines that need to be followed to prevent premature failures, just like every other metal forming method out there.

LSP972
10-09-2014, 01:01 PM
The mechanical properties of it are identical whether the part is made through the MIM process of machined out of stock.

Terms like "real steel" don't add much to the technical discussion. .

But are the CHEMICAL properties the same? IOW, does it withstand heat/erosive actions the same?

As for not adding much to the technical discussion... excuse me all to hell for being a bit old-fashioned, and not an engineer.

.

Alpha Sierra
10-09-2014, 01:43 PM
But are the CHEMICAL properties the same? IOW, does it withstand heat/erosive actions the same?
The mechanical, not chemical, properties define what you are asking, so yes, both will withstand heat and erosion the same.

Chemically (the % of each element that makes the alloy), they are also the same or else they cannot be sold as 17-4 PH.


As for not adding much to the technical discussion... excuse me all to hell for being a bit old-fashioned, and not an engineer.
The MIM bashing gets old.

ST911
10-09-2014, 01:57 PM
Here are two views of the 642 I mentioned earlier in this thread. Serial number CBW#### has been in service a few more years than the 442, and has about 2k rounds on it. The 642 and 442 have fired similar types and quantities of ammunition, and used the same cleaning products. Cleaning products are primarily WS-CLP or Slip. Also of note, after I acquired the 442, the carry and use of either was pretty random.

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW442/IMG_1230a.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW442/IMG_1228a.jpg

Alpha Sierra
10-09-2014, 02:03 PM
I wonder about the length of the firing pin in that 442.....

It might have been piercing primers.

ST911
10-09-2014, 03:57 PM
This just in: Another 442, same DCU serial alphas 4000 apart from mine. This one looks just like mine did when the damage was first observed.

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa311/gunslinger902/442firingpinbushing_zps09d7fd42.jpg

Alpha Sierra
10-09-2014, 04:15 PM
Interesting.

Batch of out of spec long firing pins?

Batch of bushings with incorrect heat treatment, or incorrect material?

The fact that the frame on the first example was compromised at the same locations as the bushing damage still has me guessing some sort of gas impingement like pierced primers.

LSP972
10-09-2014, 07:46 PM
Skintop… I have four J frame Centennials; two pre-95 and two post-95 (1995 is the year they started changing the frame design forward of the recoil shield). All have been fired quite a bit, especially the .357 M-360PD- albeit that one almost exclusively with .38s.

Your revolver, and the other one you posted a pic of, appear to have "normal" length firing pins.

I have pierced a few primers, on reloads where the brass was basically worn out and the primer very loose in the pocket. My agency had a Camdex machine, loaded all of our practice .38 on it, and re-used the brass until it failed; normally via split case mouths, but in other manifestations as well. When a primer was pierced, the report was different, the recoil FELT different… IOW, the fact that something untoward had occurred was immediately apparent. There were prominent smudges on the case heads and recoil shield, and in one instance I had to slap the cylinder open with the heel of my hand because the displaced metal of the pierced primer was binding against the hammer nose bushing (let me pause here and say that the S&W revolvers which featured a firing pin attached to the hammer called that part the "hammer nose". The Centennial originally had a hammer so equipped; not sure when they went to the inertial separate firing pin, 1968 or thereabouts I think).

That's a long-winded way of saying that I'm pretty sure if you were piercing primers you would have noticed it at some point.

Note that erosion at the other end of the cylinder, at the gap where the cylinder face meets the forcing cone of the barrel, is quite common… known as gas cutting or flame cutting, where the underside of the top strap is eroded. My old issue M-66-1 has a noticeably deep "trench" there, from many, many thousands of rounds; quite a few of which were full-patch magnums. The Ti-Scan AirLite magnum revolvers have a small steel plate inlet in this area to prevent such, as the scandium alloy of their frame is quite susceptible to flame cutting of this nature.

Anyway, we're talking a M-442 here, the standard aluminum alloy frame that is good for quite a lot of standard pressure .38s. My point is, while I have seen a large number of S&W revolvers with gas-cut top straps, I have NEVER seen one with the damage yours and that other one show. And seeing as I was once responsible for the care and maintenance of almost a thousand S&W revolvers, I've had more than a few of them in my hands.

I don't know for sure what the cause is. If I had to make a diagnosis, I would go with "bad metal". The fact that the factory offered to replace the revolver, free of charge, without asking any questions of you first, tends to support my theory that THEY know what the problem is, and it ain't your ammo.

.

mosin46
10-10-2014, 05:45 PM
not much help,but,had a similar issue with my AR. my smith went thru it and the best but not only answer was a pierced primer. no harm to the gun but the burn looks similar.

ST911
11-06-2014, 10:19 AM
Replacement is here.

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW442/442-1.jpg

SW 442-1, sku #150544, ser# CWZ####, born 10/31/2014

The good: Gun is sans lock as requested, a true no-lock and not a factory plugged variant. This gun has an extremely smooth trigger, one of the best I've seen on a NIB J-frame in recent years. Prior to its arrival, I had dug out a spare Apex kit, but will leave it alone for the time being see what more a little dry fire polish will do. I took it to the range and fired 50rds of AE 130gr FMJ and 50rds of Fed RTP 130 FMJ, no issues. The gun shot POA/POI at 7 and 10yd on small bullseyes, and stayed on a head at 15yds and high chest at 25yds. That's good enough for now.

The bad: The left stock panel doesn't have enough relief for a speed loader to align and cartridges to feed. Every reload attempt with Safariland Comp 1 and HKS loaders resulted in rounds hanging and much fussing to get the gun back in play. A replacement set will be mandatory for my purposes. Further, the stock screw is a hex head instead of a slotted screw, adding another tool to the range kit.

The timeline:
8/3-8/8, misc comms with LE rep
8/11, call tag received from factory and gun shipped
8/27, contact from factory, gun unrepairable, need FFL for replacement
8/29, FFL sent
9/8, status check requested - no response
9/22, status check requested - no response
10/15, status check requested, replacement allocated, should receive 10/20-10/24
11/3, status check requested, gun is shipping that day, tracking number provided
11/5, gun delivered

LSP972
11-06-2014, 01:59 PM
I love happy endings.

If you haven't already, look into Ahrends stocks. To me, they feel almost as good as issue magnas with a Tyler T-Grip, but are thinner and hide better in a pocket. Plenty of s/l clearance; I too use Comp 1s and HKS when I do speedloaders on a J frame. I carry Speed Strips, though, so that's what I usually practice with.

.

ST911
11-07-2014, 04:23 PM
Threw the left stock panel in the freezer, then hit it with a light sanding wheel on the dremel, and trimmed and rounded the edges. There is now plenty of clearance for a speed loader, and a good interim fix until I make up my mind on wood. Pics of the work, and comparison to the original:

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW442/IMG_1356.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW442/IMG_1363.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW442/IMG_1361.jpg

JDM
11-07-2014, 04:31 PM
What's the idea putting it in the freezer first?

EricP
11-07-2014, 04:53 PM
What's the idea putting it in the freezer first?

Rubber is difficult to machine or sand while at room temperature. Freezing it allows you to cut it without the surface melting, smearing, or loading your tool/paper.

TR675
11-07-2014, 04:53 PM
Probably same/same as tossing a tenderloin in the freezer before trying to slice it really, really thin - the freezer firms up the material and makes it much easier to sand (grips) or cut (steak).

ST911
11-07-2014, 05:20 PM
What's the idea putting it in the freezer first?

What EricP and TR675 said. Makes the material more rigid and even as it's sanded.

JDM
11-07-2014, 05:22 PM
Excellent. Thanks guys!

MGW
11-07-2014, 06:01 PM
What EricP and TR675 said. Makes the material more rigid and even as it's sanded.

Never would of thought of that.

LSP972
11-07-2014, 07:12 PM
It also works on open-cell foam, if you're trying to customize a hard case liner.

Once its "frozen", use a bread knife for the cleanest cuts.

.

ST911
11-14-2014, 11:59 PM
267 fired to date. Gun shoots most loads to POA at 7-10yds with some minor variations thereafter. They are pretty minimal so far, and unlikely to be produced by most casual shooters. There's not a lot of any single load, but enough for a snapshot of what to expect from them. Loads fired:

Federal RTP 130 RTP
Federal AE 130 FMJ
Federal AE 158 RNL
Speer 135 GDHP +P
Hornady 110 Critical Defense (standard pressure)
Corbon 110 DPX +P
Corbon 125 JHP +P
Black Hills Ammo 125 GDHP +P
Black Hills Ammo 125 JHP-XTP +P

I shot combinations of these loads in 5^5 drills, and all gave me at least a 4/5. While not optimal, it's a good start on a tough little gun and I'll continue to put work in. See the standard here: https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/5-5/

BUG quals were a breeze. My F.A.S.Ts suck.

The stock relief cut (discussed above) is enough for all HKS and Comp 1 speed loaders to clear with any of those listed rounds. The XTPs, Critical Defense, and Barnes (DPX) are good feeders. The longer Critical Defense bullets don't seem to miss.

About 150rds in, I decided to give an Apex duty/carry kit a try despite a GTG factory trigger. Curiously, it produced (or revealed?) a slight but noticeable hitch/hesitation early in trigger travel as the cylinder unlocked. If present with the OEM springs, it wasn't detectable presumably due to trigger weight. The reset was also a little softer than felt right. Factory springs are now back in the gun for the time being.

It was the spring swap that produced the next item of note: a busted yoke screw assembly. After re-installing the OEM springs and replacing the slide plate, I tightened the yoke screw to first resistance. Another wee bit to snug, and the head turned free. After a slight panic subsided, I removed the head and found the first couple threads intact along with the spring and plunger still attached. The lower hollow of the screw was still in the threads in the frame and I was able to remove it without any damage. Examination of the screw shows that it broke at mid-point, and bits flaked off the ends with my fingernail. I initially thought it was a case of gorilla-hands, but I've not had that occur in dozens of previous re-assemblies, much less on a new gun. Verdict: pot metal screw. A replacement screw went in without issue.

The search continues for wood stocks I like. What wood, what finish.

I'm liking this 442 a lot.

MD7305
11-15-2014, 07:57 AM
When I got my no-lock 442 from G&R I had the Apex kit already installed when it arrived. Compared to other j-frames I've owned, with and without the kit, the trigger seemed slow to return. Early on, during live fire and dry fire, there were a few instances where the trigger didn't return requiring me to manually push it forward. It felt as though the trigger return spring wasn't heavy enough. I removed the side plate to investigate and everything looked normal but the gun was dry. I watched the Apex youtube video about the kit again and noticed they suggested to polish the rebound slide. I used some emory cloth and polished the bottom and sides of the slide in conjunction of adding some lube. This had a dramatic effect on the trigger. Not only did it reliably reset/rebound the trigger but the pull was much smoother. I guess maybe some of the internal finish was just rough enough to cause the rebound slide to bind up and the lighter trigger return spring wasnt heavy enough to over come that friction? In any event, since that time I've fired about 450rds and at least 1000 dryfires without the hang up reappearing.

ST911
11-15-2014, 10:50 AM
When I got my no-lock 442 from G&R I had the Apex kit already installed when it arrived. Compared to other j-frames I've owned, with and without the kit, the trigger seemed slow to return. Early on, during live fire and dry fire, there were a few instances where the trigger didn't return requiring me to manually push it forward. It felt as though the trigger return spring wasn't heavy enough. I removed the side plate to investigate and everything looked normal but the gun was dry. I watched the Apex youtube video about the kit again and noticed they suggested to polish the rebound slide. I used some emory cloth and polished the bottom and sides of the slide in conjunction of adding some lube. This had a dramatic effect on the trigger. Not only did it reliably reset/rebound the trigger but the pull was much smoother. I guess maybe some of the internal finish was just rough enough to cause the rebound slide to bind up and the lighter trigger return spring wasnt heavy enough to over come that friction? In any event, since that time I've fired about 450rds and at least 1000 dryfires without the hang up reappearing.

Thanks. I've seen it in other Js this year, too. Most recently I installed a kit in a 342, got soft resets, and could make it hang every 3-4 presses or so. Another J needs to be kept well lubed or it will hang. I think the light rebound spring is just close to threshold.

Interestingly, it's something new though. I've not experienced it with several kits obtained in ~2011-2012. Two kits in 642s won't stop, regardless of how they're treated. Stacking tolerances, a production change, who knows.

LSP972
11-17-2014, 08:53 AM
Weak trigger return is almost always caused by two things; a clipped rebound slide spring (usual culprit), and/or a dragging rebound slide.

One of the first things to be done when cleaning up the trigger on an S&W revolver is to "break" the inside edge of the rebound slide. Basically, you break the sharp edge by rounding it on a semi-hard stone, to remove any possibility of the slide galling against the frame. As with anything involving metal removal, you gotta be very careful doing that.

For years, S&W made a slightly weaker rebound slide spring intended for the single-action-only K-38. This spring was highly sought after by folks doing trigger jobs, because it was... 1) a factory part, 2) did not give the "soft return" issues that a clipped normal-strength usually did.

If one is experiencing sticky trigger return, the first thing to do is replace the rebound slide spring with a factory example.

I have installed perhaps a dozen of the Apex kits into various J frame Centennials, and only one needed some attention to the rebound slide itself to prevent sticky return. I was rather leery of this "kit" when it was announced, but now heartily reccommend it as an excellent drop-in modification to help the really execrable trigger on some J frames. It, along with The Plug to do away with that communist lock, are a pair of aftermarket goodies that are most definitely worth their cost.

.