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cclaxton
10-04-2014, 10:26 PM
By Ron Avery at PoliceOne.
My favorite quote:
"The reason is that the higher end competitive shooter has trained under far greater stress and pressure than you can put on yourself in training by yourself. He has mastered his emotions, his equipment and has a driving will to prevail that will come into play when he enters a fight….provided he has the right values and mindset for the fight in place as well."

This article was targeted at LEO's, but the same applies to concealed carriers. Of course tactical training and having the right mindset and courage applies as well.

http://www.policeone.com/Officer-Safety/articles/5816232-Will-competition-get-you-killed/

Cody

HopetonBrown
10-04-2014, 10:53 PM
Mike Pannone told us to shoot competition. Just last month he made Master in L and L10. Ken Hackathorn was a founder of USPSA and IDPA. Vickers was a founder of IDPA. Frank Proctor is a IDPA M and USPSA GM. Vogel was full time LE and IPSC world champion. Rob Haught is full time LE and IDPA SSP champion. That's what Hackathorn would call a "clue".

orionz06
10-05-2014, 12:40 AM
The only time I have seen or heard anyone dissing competition is when they weren't at the top anymore.

Lester Polfus
10-05-2014, 12:55 AM
Can anybody provide a single, anecdotal incident where competing got a good guy killed on da street?

olstyn
10-05-2014, 02:53 AM
Even as a lowly D-class USPSA shooter, I feel like I've gotten significant benefit out of competing. If nothing else, it provides you with an honest assessment of your shooting ability under stress. I always knew I could stand to gain some skill, and competing only reinforced that thought, but going to my first level 2 match this summer was eye-opening. It was a whole other world from the club matches I'd been shooting, and several of the stages just kicked the crap out of me. Some of the things I was getting hurt by in competition wouldn't matter on "the street," but that didn't make them sting any less. The end result is that I really would like to get some serious training now; it's just a matter of getting the when, where, and who together with the money. Hopefully soon.

Pup town
10-05-2014, 05:13 AM
Can anybody provide a single, anecdotal incident where competing got a good guy killed on da street?

No.

(Furthermore, a lot/many/most of the 'training scars' stories about LEOs being killed due to bad habits ingrained from training are apocryphal, as well- the most famous being the one about empty cartridges being found in the trooper's pocket.)

Ten years ago it was more common to have 'serious' tacticians dismiss competition. The tide has turned, and the benefits of competition are now widely accepted.

Alpha Sierra
10-05-2014, 05:55 AM
The end result is that I really would like to get some serious training now; it's just a matter of getting the when, where, and who together with the money. Hopefully soon.
Ben Stoeger's and Steve Anderson's books are not all that expensive and it's like having free coaching from them every time you go to the range or dry fire at home.

The only thing better would be to take a class from either of them or some other competitor of similar caliber.

JV_
10-05-2014, 06:16 AM
Great competitors don't always make great instructors, don't just pick an instructor because of their success in matches, pick ones that are great in both areas.

Pup town
10-05-2014, 06:31 AM
Great competitors don't always make great instructors, don't just pick an instructor because of their success in matches, pick ones that are great in both areas.

Everyone says this, but no one ever says who the bad (or not great) instructors are.

KeeFus
10-05-2014, 06:47 AM
A few years ago there was a podcast by Mas Ayoob with Bill Allard. It was full of his experiences from the stakeout squad and how important he believed competition was when it came to winning gunfights.

All I could find at the moment about it was from American Gunner. This outtake kinda brings it home to me:

Allard, now retired, won a National Championship in conventional pistol shooting at Camp Perry, among his many titles. Cirillo shot mainly PPC during the time he was on the Stakeout Unit, but later became a big fan of IPSC, and had become a fan of IDPA as well before his untimely death in a traffic accident. Irrespective of which discipline they preferred, each had learned to make perfect shots under time limits “when the pressure was on.” Jim and I were on the same squad at the first Bianchi Cup match in 1979, and at one point in the tournament he told me he was feeling more pressure than he had in any of his gun battles. When I asked him why, he explained there had been a lot of time for the pressure to build at the match he knew was certain — and the fights happened so fast he was often able to run on auto pilot.

This article goes on to suggest that even Wyatt Earp had competed in some informal matches while he was a lawman.

http://americanhandgunner.com/when-cops-compete/

IMO, shooting competitions doesn't mean you will be killed in da skreetz. Sure, there are folks that wont shoot competitions because of their ego's.

Josh Runkle
10-05-2014, 08:22 AM
By no means do I think competing will get you killed, however, I am one of those people that believes that the shooting aspect of a violent encounter represents about 1-5% of the encounter, and that situational awareness, recognition of a threat, appropriate decision making in response to the threat (do I run away, do I choose to fight?) and then the intestinal fortitude to "do whatever needs to be done in order to survive-law be damned", all represents the 95%+ of the encounter. I believe that people who spend time only honing one singular aspect of a life threatening encounter develop an un-proportional response, in that some under-utilized skills are at a beginners level, while other skills are at a master level, and those skills at a master level are more likely than normal to be used, whereas the skills at a beginner level are less likely to be used.

Now, obviously, one could take training in multiple areas, and that would represent the most ideal situation. However, the situational bias that results from someone being very good in one area tends to translate into a belief that they are also good at other areas, for which they are actually unprepared, but where a cognitive bias exists. IE: I believe that a dunning-Kruger type scenario exists and is fueled within SOME competitors. IE: you put them in a scenario where they don't have a gun, and they think that they will prevail just as well as if they had a firearm, because they have a knife or something, yet they have very few hours in knife training, or they answer something like, "but, I always have a gun", when the reality is that they only have a gun 90% of the time.

Not trying to knock anyone. Competition should absolutely be advocated as a training tool, and it certainly sharpens and hones many aspects of shooting. However, I am trying to "keep it real" in that portions of violent encounters exist, which shooters may be woefully unprepared for, yet, because of a Dunning-Kruger-like bias, they feel that they are as equally prepared in those other areas as they are in the "shooting skills" department.

NETim
10-05-2014, 08:40 AM
By no means do I think competing will get you killed, however, I am one of those people that believes that the shooting aspect of a violent encounter represents about 1-5% of the encounter, and that situational awareness, recognition of a threat, appropriate decision making in response to the threat (do I run away, do I choose to fight?) and then the intestinal fortitude to "do whatever needs to be done in order to survive-law be damned", all represents the 95%+ of the encounter. I believe that people who spend time only honing one singular aspect of a life threatening encounter develop an un-proportional response, in that some under-utilized skills are at a beginners level, while other skills are at a master level, and those skills at a master level are more likely than normal to be used, whereas the skills at a beginner level are less likely to be used.

Now, obviously, one could take training in multiple areas, and that would represent the most ideal situation. However, the situational bias that results from someone being very good in one area tends to translate into a belief that they are also good at other areas, for which they are actually unprepared, but where a cognitive bias exists. IE: I believe that a dunning-Kruger type scenario exists and is fueled within SOME competitors. IE: you put them in a scenario where they don't have a gun, and they think that they will prevail just as well as if they had a firearm, because they have a knife or something, yet they have very few hours in knife training, or they answer something like, "but, I always have a gun", when the reality is that they only have a gun 90% of the time.

Not trying to knock anyone. Competition should absolutely be advocated as a training tool, and it certainly sharpens and hones many aspects of shooting. However, I am trying to "keep it real" in that portions of violent encounters exist, which shooters may be woefully unprepared for, yet, because of a Dunning-Kruger-like bias, they feel that they are as equally prepared in those other areas as they are in the "shooting skills" department.

😃 My Airsoft riddled body hurts just a little less after reading this. I thought I used cover well. Nothing like incoming fire from an intelligent force to open your eyes to your deficiencies.


Yes, I survived yesterday's class but not without a brutally damaged ego and the realization that I need to do some serious work.

It was humbling but that's what good training is supposed to do, isn't it?

Lon
10-05-2014, 08:47 AM
The fact that I was a competitive shooter may have got me killed if I had listened to my Chief (now retired thankfully) years ago. He told me that he didn't think I needed to draw my gun as soon as other Officers in certain situations since I practiced so much and could draw so much faster than the other guys. I was so shocked I didn't really say much other than "sure Chief" (I was a rookie at the time). But I was thinking, "so I practiced enough to get a sub 1 second hit from the draw with a Safariland 070 so that I could WAIT?" Obviously I ignored him.


Sure, there are folks that wont shoot competitions because of their ego's.

This. I've invited numerous Officers to the matches I shoot. Very rarely do they shoot more than one. I think a lot of it has to do with having their balls stomped in the dirt by the local IT guy or the local carpet layer.

I have always believed that shooting (and improving to above average skill levels) in USPSA matches will improve a few critical skill areas: gun handling skills, being able to quickly evaluate and reevaluate a course of fire on the run and adapting to whatever happens after the buzzer goes off.

Jay Cunningham
10-05-2014, 08:47 AM
Everyone says this, but no one ever says who the bad (or not great) instructors are.

Because it's contentious and subjective and usually turns into disciples advocating for their sensei.

edited to add: It can also turn into disciples running down the political enemies of their sensei. Yes, this is how the industry works.

olstyn
10-05-2014, 08:59 AM
Ben Stoeger's and Steve Anderson's books are not all that expensive and it's like having free coaching from them every time you go to the range or dry fire at home.

The only thing better would be to take a class from either of them or some other competitor of similar caliber.

Ben Stoeger actually won Production at the L2 match I mentioned. I wasn't squadded with him, so I didn't get to see him shoot, but it was interesting to be present while he was walking around on a stage and discussing how to approach it just after the lunch break.

Thanks for the reminder on the books; I've been meaning to order one of them. If anybody's got a suggestion as to which one is the best to start with for someone who's been shooting for a while but is realistically still a beginner (D-class, but occasionally manages to score higher than some C-class folks at local matches), I'm all ears.

cclaxton
10-05-2014, 09:12 AM
I agree, although 95% seems exaggerated to me. I am no expert, perhaps others here can comment. It seems to me it's more like 20% physical, 20% skill, and 60% mental. Having more than one tool is kinda obvious. Otherwise, it could be excessive use of force.
Abraham (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Kaplan)Kaplan wrote: "I call it the law of the instrument, and it may be formulated as follows: Give a small boy a hammer, and he will find that everything he encounters needs pounding." Also known as: "If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail." This can result in what I call the "Just shoot em" approach to any threat.

Seems to me the Use of Force Continuum should be the rule for LEO's and a guideline for civilians.

When I survey controversial shootings, the issue seems to be excessive use of force in most cases. We (and I including LEO's) can't just shoot someone because we felt threatened. There needs to be appropriate use of force, that is why I am learning Krav and always have pepper/CS available. What I need next is practicing the use of the continuum of force.
Cody

LSP552
10-05-2014, 09:14 AM
Competition teaches you how to run your gun under stress, which is a great thing. When fighting for your life, you should be thinking about tactics and not about how to make your stuff work.

There is a hugh confidence level associated with KNOWING what you can do under stress.

JV_
10-05-2014, 09:28 AM
Because it's contentious and subjective and usually turns into disciples advocating for their sensei.

edited to add: It can also turn into disciples running down the political enemies of their sensei. Yes, this is how the industry works.

Exactly.

I would suggest talking to people who've actually been in the class, rather than reading AARs on forums from random people. I have half a dozen friends who've taken a class where all of the public AARs are all praise, and they all thought it was a waste of money. When you dig deeper, you find it's a common problem, and most of the unsatisfied people just just less vocal or don't want the shit storm that follows if they were to bash someone's beloved trainer. And then there's the whole disappearing AAR, which only happens with bad reviews.

rsa-otc
10-05-2014, 09:31 AM
Competition teaches you how to run your gun under stress, which is a great thing. When fighting for your life, you should be thinking about tactics and not about how to make your stuff work.

There is a hugh confidence level associated with KNOWING what you can do under stress.
You and I are in complete agreement on this. You only get so much attention to spend on anything. When in a gun fight your attention should be on when, at who and from where [tactics ]; not how to shoot your gun.

shane45
10-05-2014, 09:52 AM
For me the question in my mind is, does the additional shooting skill acquired in competition trump the tactical mistakes you might make? When I switched from IPSC to IDPA, I was so used to standing in the open and focusing on the shooting, I rang up penalties faster than Mike Tyson in a hockey game in IDPA. It really took a while to break that habit. So it seems easy to extrapolate how easy it would be to make that mistake in a real situation. The proverbial "killed while picking up your brass" situation. What the top guys do almost seems irrelevant to me unless I can match the amount of practice and training they are able to do. I suspect that they have done so much of all of the above it allows them to switch gears accurately through all shooting events.

JV_
10-05-2014, 09:55 AM
When I switched from IPSC to IDPA, I was so used to standing in the open and focusing on the shooting, I rang up penalties faster than Mike Tyson in a hockey game in IDPA. It really took a while to break that habit.

I would caution you when trying to equate an IDPA penalty with tactical (in)correctness.

I wouldn't assume that just because you did it in USPSA that you'd do it in a real-life gunfight.

shane45
10-05-2014, 10:12 AM
Just to make sure Im forming my questions/statements clearly, Im not saying you definitely would, but just like in the case of officers killed while picking up brass in a gunfight because they did in training, I would say that implies you could. Conversely, is this risk outweighed by how much better you are likely to shoot in a real life situation?

YVK
10-05-2014, 10:36 AM
My observation is that overlap between competitive and concealed carry world is pretty small. I shot my last USPSA match yesterday. There were 42 match participants. Not a single person carried a gun before match started. Unless they used smart carry or ankle holsters, which I highly doubt.
At the end of tear down people take off their war belts, lock them up, shake hands, and drive away.

That, and 2.5 lbs triggers shooting ammo barely over PF level makes me wonder. Other than that, watching local GMs leave me in the dust is a thing of beauty and is quite stimulating.

olstyn
10-05-2014, 10:52 AM
My observation is that overlap between competitive and concealed carry world is pretty small. I shot my last USPSA match yesterday. There were 42 match participants. Not a single person carried a gun before match started. Unless they used smart carry or ankle holsters, which I highly doubt.
At the end of tear down people take off their war belts, lock them up, shake hands, and drive away.

That, and 2.5 lbs triggers shooting ammo barely over PF level makes me wonder. Other than that, watching local GMs leave me in the dust is a thing of beauty and is quite stimulating.

That's been my observation as well. It's possible that people could be loading up in their cars, but I'm the only one I've ever seen who makes use of the berm for this purpose post-teardown/brass pickup. Seems to me that I might as well load up in a safe direction given the option, and it's convenient to do so, given that I'm shooting my carry gun from my carry holster in the match anyway. It's really just one last "load and make ready."

cclaxton
10-05-2014, 10:58 AM
That's been my observation as well. It's possible that people could be loading up in their cars, but I'm the only one I've ever seen who makes use of the berm for this purpose post-teardown/brass pickup. Seems to me that I might as well load up in a safe direction given the option, and it's convenient to do so, given that I'm shooting my carry gun from my carry holster in the match anyway. It's really just one last "load and make ready."
One of the great things about a KSTG match is you can arrive hot and leave hot, and most do. Once your squad is ready to shoot the SO/RO will take you downrange and ask you to unload and show clear. On the first stage you will load up and shoot your first stage, topping off for the next stage. Then, at the end after you unload and show clear for the final stage, you can ask to load up to leave. They take you downrange and people make ready to leave. If IDPA and USPSA allowed it, I am sure most would do the same, depending on the state.
Cody

YVK
10-05-2014, 11:07 AM
If IDPA and USPSA allowed it
Cody

I don't give a damn if they allow it or not. I say I'll be back, go over to my car, stick in my carry gun, which is nearly identical to my production gun, in AIWB, and go help with tear down.

Chris Rhines
10-05-2014, 11:15 AM
I don't give a damn if they allow it or not. I say I'll be back, go over to my car, stick in my carry gun, which is nearly identical to my production gun, in AIWB, and go help with tear down. It's worth mentioning that doing so at a USPSA match would cause you to be disqualified under Rule 10.5.13. You're not permitted to handle your gun except when under the direct supervision of a range officer.

According to Rule 2.5, a match in an area with legal CCW should provide a loading/unloading station separate from the match area, where CCW-type folks can take care of business. I have never actually seen such a thing, but it's a good idea.

YVK
10-05-2014, 11:28 AM
Yep, Chris, I know. I look at it in a few ways. First, I handle my gun inside my car, which is a private property outside of USPSA rules.
Second, there are no areas covered by 2.5 at my range.
Third, I can be just an asshole who drives away after completing my last stage. I choose to help with tear down, as long as I carry concealed doing it.

Glenn E. Meyer
10-05-2014, 11:49 AM
I opine that the benefits of competition come from stress inoculation and moving to unconscious competence in gun handling. As far as tactics - either game is not that relevant. Who, for example, enters a building with 10 shooters if you are a civilian (except in some bizarre circumstances). Most IDPA scenarios can be dealt with by fleeing in terror! I do like sitting at a table with 6 targets in front of you when the committee decides to attack you (this is for academics - :p). Or as some jocularly put it - your last meeting with HR.

However, the emergency literature is pretty clear that stress reduction does come from being in stressful situations and practice that gives you quick and automatic perceptual and action paradigms to prevent the freeze up. Does that lead to automaticity of bad shoots? We don't know that. It might be that the under practiced go more to automatic shoot as they don't have higher level evaluative process with quick evaluation responses. That's why quality FOF is a needed adjunct just to shooting skills. There are studies out there that FOF or simulation training leads to better decision making.

BTW - I shoot with a Glock 19 or 26 most of the time - which are my carry guns. I do throw in a 1911 or M19, snubby or even a 32 HR mag once in a while for grins.

Another factor is that the 'mistakes' in USPSA or IDPA from a 'tactical' point of view aren't really that relevant to the civilian modal gun fight - mugger be gone, dude in the hallway. What 'mistakes' do we seen in civilian gun fights (totally anecdotal):

1. Not shooting the guy - Tacoma Mall
2. Leaving cover - Tyler
3. Challenging the person overtly - WalMart dude
4. Leaving the truck to see the street sign (George!)
5. Hosing the music van
6. Hosing the popgun guy
7. Doing the Biden on some poor drunk at the door

At least, the games and FOF give you a bit of practice on inhibiting the bad shoot and discerning a threat.

There is a slight movement to have small carry gun matches around here to avoid the space gun, tricked out - non carry guns.

The folks I know who 'carry' and talk 'guns' and won't compete basically don't want to fail in front of manly men! Failing is a good thing as a learning experience. For example, I totally blew a dark building stage as I found my developing cataracts totally disabled my finer vision at night. I actually couldn't see a gun on a dark t-shirt target. Who knew? They are fixed now - old age - sigh.

KevinB
10-05-2014, 12:43 PM
I shoot competition - but I do it for the fun - and to see how bad I am...

Issues I have with most competitions reflecting life is that target discrimination is virtually non existent.
Lack of moving targets (for the most part) - targets never change threat (no compliance aspect).

I view this simply as shooting mechanics - it needs to be augmented with a lot of other aspects.

Everyone should shoot comps -- but I don't think its all folks (especially LEO and CCW) should do.
I shoot it with tactical movement anyway - and accept that on some stages I will not competitive - which I am okay with.

MVS
10-05-2014, 01:03 PM
Just to make sure Im forming my questions/statements clearly, Im not saying you definitely would, but just like in the case of officers killed while picking up brass in a gunfight because they did in training, I would say that implies you could. Conversely, is this risk outweighed by how much better you are likely to shoot in a real life situation?

The two problems I see with this are, 1) If you are referring to the Newhall incident, the brass in the pocket thing is most likely a myth. 2) While cover may indeed be indicated, many, many, many gunfights by non LEO's are won without its use. Refer to the Rangemaster database.

KevinB
10-05-2014, 01:14 PM
MVS -

1) Brass in pocket is real - I don't have the cite on this computer - but I have seen the Incident Report posted before -- perhaps on in TBL over on Lightfighter. The Department in question did change their range drills after one of those.
- Same aspect has happened from learned responses - the whistle, there has been at least 1 LEO shooting done from a LEO trained to engage on the whistle - and shot a suspect upon a whistle blast when the suspect had their hands up.

I would argue for the #1 aspect - IF all you do is X, then X will be default. Best course of action is to engage in different activities - thus I do not think that ADDING competition will hurt only help.

2) Cover -- while may not be relevant to the majority of CCW, the original comment was also about LEO's - either way - IF you have the ability to use cover - I don't think anyone in their right mind would suggest not using it if possible. #2 - If I banked on stats I would not need to carry a gun right?

Pup town
10-05-2014, 01:30 PM
This. I've invited numerous Officers to the matches I shoot. Very rarely do they shoot more than one. I think a lot of it has to do with having their balls stomped in the dirt by the local IT guy or the local carpet layer.


I've done the same, with the same results.

To be fair, plenty of "tactically-trained" shooters avoid competitions like the plague because of their ego, too. They've taken 5 courses from a former CAG instructor, and they don't want to find out how slow they are (insert catchphrase about accuracy over speed here.)

MVS
10-05-2014, 01:30 PM
MVS -

1) Brass in pocket is real - I don't have the cite on this computer - but I have seen the Incident Report posted before -- perhaps on in TBL over on Lightfighter. The Department in question did change their range drills after one of those.
- Same aspect has happened from learned responses - the whistle, there has been at least 1 LEO shooting done from a LEO trained to engage on the whistle - and shot a suspect upon a whistle blast when the suspect had their hands up.

I would argue for the #1 aspect - IF all you do is X, then X will be default. Best course of action is to engage in different activities - thus I do not think that ADDING competition will hurt only help.

2) Cover -- while may not be relevant to the majority of CCW, the original comment was also about LEO's - either way - IF you have the ability to use cover - I don't think anyone in their right mind would suggest not using it if possible. #2 - If I banked on stats I would not need to carry a gun right?

Kevin when I see the brass thing I always think of Newhall There may be more examples. http://www.gunnuts.net/2013/07/22/tactical-mythbusting-revolver-brass-in-the-pocket/

Cover) I agree, if available use it but not at the expense of getting off fast accurate shots that could be fight stoppers. Situationally dependent and all that. John Hearn has some numbers in his Performance under fire lecture that show many victorious OIS's did not use cover.

Pup town
10-05-2014, 01:40 PM
MVS -

1) Brass in pocket is real - I don't have the cite on this computer - but I have seen the Incident Report posted before -- perhaps on in TBL over on Lightfighter. The Department in question did change their range drills after one of those.


No offense, but I'm not going to take your hazy memory as proof.

Here's Massad Ayoob writing on the subject:

As noted in Ayoob Files: The Book in 1995, “Though official sources deny it, some CHP officers insist Pence was found with spent casings in his pocket, a legacy of range training.” It would appear Mike Wood has resolved the debate through his research of LASD Homicide files.

In September 2011, Mike told me the LASD file included a scene photo of Pence’s six spent .357 casings lying on the asphalt where he fell. By third quarter 2012, he was able to show me that evidence photo. I can now accept Pence did indeed eject his empties in his desperate attempt to reload and get back in the fight.

http://americanhandgunner.com/new-info-on-newhall/

(Could another officer somewhere have emptied his revolver into his pocket? Sure. But it doesn't appear to have happened in the Newhall Incident.)

shane45
10-05-2014, 01:56 PM
I would suggest that we don't get stuck on a singular example, even if it turns out to be a bad one, as I am sure there is enough evidence to support what you do in training, you may do under stress right?

"I shoot it with tactical movement anyway - and accept that on some stages I will not competitive - which I am okay with."
This is the strategy I have also employed including not being rushed out of cover because the stage is on the clock.

I decided last year I was going to focus more on training than competition...but work overload took both off the table for now, but I think I am still inclined to go that route once time allows. Indeed many real life scenarios are solved by putting the Nike's to use, and some stages in any competition lack any resemblance to reality, so I think the focus is on the situations you cant get out of. Also, I would think its not about what you might get away with but more what ideal looks like. It is my opinion that if you are putting 20+k rounds a year down range shooting IPSC, there is a distinct possibility you may forget to seek cover in a real incident or rush from cover to early or (insert gun game unsound practice) here. This is less than ideal. Winning the armed conflict doesn't eliminate it would have been better to win it from behind cover right?

KevinB
10-05-2014, 01:58 PM
It was not that one -- IIRC it was a NYPD or other NE state area.
Pat Rogers has a few posts on a few training scar issues over on LF as well, one where a trooper shot twice and re-holstered (as per drill) and suspect shot him.

My point I was trying to make was anything done blindly by rote will fail when an unplanned result occurs.

CCT125US
10-05-2014, 02:53 PM
Exactly.

I would suggest talking to people who've actually been in the class, rather than reading AARs on forums from random people. I have half a dozen friends who've taken a class where all of the public AARs are all praise, and they all thought it was a waste of money. When you dig deeper, you find it's a common problem, and most of the unsatisfied people just just less vocal or don't want the shit storm that follows if they were to bash someone's beloved trainer. And then there's the whole disappearing AAR, which only happens with bad reviews.

This, and it makes the outliers question themselves, and left shaking thier heads.

Alpha Sierra
10-05-2014, 03:25 PM
When I switched from IPSC to IDPA, I was so used to standing in the open and focusing on the shooting, I rang up penalties faster than Mike Tyson in a hockey game in IDPA.
When I switched from IDPA to USPSA, I didn't keep trying to pie corners and wear fishing vests

When I used to own a double trigger shotgun, I didn't forget to go for the second trigger when tuning up for bird season after months of shooting a semi auto in sporting clays.

I recently transitioned from striker fired to DA/SA. I've read here and in many places about how difficult that is. I didn't find it hard at all.

And I am not an exceptional individual. The brain can do a whole lot more than we think it can, if we just let it.

Alpha Sierra
10-05-2014, 03:56 PM
When I go to compete with firearms, be it USPSA, sporting clays, or scoped rifle matches, I really don't worry if what I am doing will get me "killed on the street".

It's a hobby and I am doing it to have fun and because I am competitive by nature

LittleLebowski
10-05-2014, 04:20 PM
When I go to compete with firearms, be it USPSA, sporting clays, or scoped rifle matches, I really don't worry if what I am doing will get me "killed on the street".

It's a hobby and I am doing it to have fun and because I am competitive by nature

We are in complete agreement.

Jared
10-05-2014, 05:59 PM
If anybody's got a suggestion as to which one is the best to start with for someone who's been shooting for a while but is realistically still a beginner (D-class, but occasionally manages to score higher than some C-class folks at local matches), I'm all ears.

Honestly, get both, but if you will only order from Stoeger or Anderson and not both, then Stoeger all the way. Get both of his Dry fire books. The first one (15 minutes A Day) may be an E-book only proposition by now, but if at all possible, get it, as well as Stoeger's Dry Fire Training for the Practical Pistol Shooter.

Anderson is more repetitive than Stoeger. I have his first two books. They are quite good, and his Core 14 Drills are valuable. He does more Plate Rack stuff than Stoeger. That said, I go months without using Anderson's stuff, but not more than two days without using Stoeger's.

Also, GET Stoeger's Skills and Drills. That book, or more accurately, the methods described in it, gave my shooting a huge boost early this year. After a couple months with it, I had about a 20% increase in my match scores.

MVS
10-05-2014, 06:02 PM
.

Also, GET Stoeger's Skills and Drills. That book, or more accurately, the methods described in it, gave my shooting a huge boost early this year. After a couple months with it, I had about a 20% increase in my match scores.

I used that book this summer and made measurable improvements. To me it was also a fun read.

olstyn
10-05-2014, 08:24 PM
Honestly, get both, but if you will only order from Stoeger or Anderson and not both, then Stoeger all the way. Get both of his Dry fire books. The first one (15 minutes A Day) may be an E-book only proposition by now, but if at all possible, get it, as well as Stoeger's Dry Fire Training for the Practical Pistol Shooter.

Anderson is more repetitive than Stoeger. I have his first two books. They are quite good, and his Core 14 Drills are valuable. He does more Plate Rack stuff than Stoeger. That said, I go months without using Anderson's stuff, but not more than two days without using Stoeger's.

Also, GET Stoeger's Skills and Drills. That book, or more accurately, the methods described in it, gave my shooting a huge boost early this year. After a couple months with it, I had about a 20% increase in my match scores.


I used that book this summer and made measurable improvements. To me it was also a fun read.

Exactly the advice I was looking for. Thanks to both of you, and the order will be placed shortly. :)

shane45
10-06-2014, 12:16 AM
When I go to compete with firearms, be it USPSA, sporting clays, or scoped rifle matches, I really don't worry if what I am doing will get me "killed on the street".

It's a hobby and I am doing it to have fun and because I am competitive by nature

That is fine for you. But there are those of us that are not in the pursuit of the hobby or the sport, but to be as prepared as we can as a duty to ones self preservation and a responsibility to everyone's safety(except the bad guys). So it is worth the time, analysis and discussion to determine what pursuits yield the best balanced solution.

rob_s
10-06-2014, 05:28 AM
I would suggest that we don't get stuck on a singular example, even if it turns out to be a bad one

Except that it's the same one or two, unsubstantiated and documented, boogeyman stories we've all been hearing as excuses not to go get ones ass handed to them in a match.

Alpha Sierra
10-06-2014, 05:37 AM
That is fine for you. But there are those of us that are not in the pursuit of the hobby or the sport, but to be as prepared as we can as a duty to ones self preservation and a responsibility to everyone's safety(except the bad guys). So it is worth the time, analysis and discussion to determine what pursuits yield the best balanced solution.
My definition of "prepared as we can" is probably different than yours.

I am not a cop. I live a very low risk life. I adjust my priorities accordingly.

shane45
10-06-2014, 08:54 AM
rob_s, it sounds to me like you are taking the position that whatever you do in training doesn't matter as you will not default to that behavior...I disagree. You have never experienced a training scar? If you re-read my posts, I don't think you will find anywhere that I said don't compete. I especially did not say don't compete because you might get your ego bruised as you suggest! My posts, restated for you, is are their legitimate concerns, and is their a trade off? I am NOT claiming to be a top competitor or even close. But just the same, I have placed 1st in a couple of IDPA matches and a few 3 gun matches and shot deep in to B class back in the late 90's in IPSC so I am not unfamiliar with competition.

Alpha, I perfectly understand your position.

Shane

rob_s
10-06-2014, 09:04 AM
rob_s, it sounds to me like you are taking the position that whatever you do in training doesn't matter as you will not default to that behavior...I disagree. You have never experienced a training scar? If you re-read my posts, I don't think you will find anywhere that I said don't compete. I especially did not say don't compete because you might get your ego bruised as you suggest! My posts, restated for you, is are their legitimate concerns, and is their a trade off? I am NOT claiming to be a top competitor or even close. But just the same, I have placed 1st in a couple of IDPA matches and a few 3 gun matches and shot deep in to B class back in the late 90's in IPSC so I am not unfamiliar with competition.


Read the words that I wrote, not the words that you imagined I wrote.

My point here is that it would be nice to run-to-ground all of the boogeyman stories and either prove or disprove them once and for all via actual OIS reports or similar. If for no other reason than for those that those that are trying "to be as prepared as we can as a duty to ones self preservation and a responsibility to everyone's safety" can do so based in reality instead of fantasy.

KeeFus
10-06-2014, 09:31 AM
I had been shooting IDPA for about 6 months when my OIS happened. I can say that shooting IDPA obviously didn't get me killed on da street. I can tell you that after my first match and getting my ass handed to me by someone who was not a LEO was a humbling experience. What it did do was get me into manipulating my weapon on a daily basis (dry-fire and live fire, along with drawing, mag changes, movement between points of cover being most of what I was doing at that time). My duty weapon was a G-21. My comp weapon at that time was a bone stock G-17 with Heinie straight 8's. Under stress my actions went straight back to how I had been training/practicing in regards to handling my weapon. I do not know if all that saved my life but I believe that if I had been at the same level I was at before shooting competition there would likely be a different outcome. Everything was automatic. There was thought but it was not about my pistol and where it was or needed to be...as I already knew. I was able to focus more on the threat, which was armed with a camouflage Mossberg 12ga loaded with 3.5 inch 00 buck. He missed. I didn't. Take that for what it's worth but that's my experience.

I have been on-scene within moments of other OIS's and the officers fell back on what they were taught on the firing line. One officer still had his Sig 226 in his hand and had only fired one shot...but he had not yet reset the trigger...still squeezing it back on my arrival a few seconds later. Things happen to your body under stress. Adding a little stress to yourself may help under the stress of an actual event. I think it does but I'm sure others will disagree.

nwhpfan
10-06-2014, 09:44 AM
Being a high level competitor, having the skills and abilites needed to compete; will aid you in not getting killed on the streets.

And since he is mentioned in an earlier thread having written some books; Steve Anderson is a top tier instructor. His focus is shooting good & competition. www.andersonshooting.com If you want to win a gunfight, or win a match, you need to be a good shooter, and he is one of the best; and his classes are of the best.

shane45
10-06-2014, 10:06 AM
rob_s, I read what you clearly wrote. I imagined nothing. I use the picking up brass thing, not as a shining example but more as a commonly known reference for my point. When I explained the actual incident in question was not my intent, that I just picked a popular one to make a point and not to get hung up on that specific example you wrote:

"Except that it's the same one or two, unsubstantiated and documented, boogeyman stories we've all been hearing as excuses not to go get ones ass handed to them in a match."

You ARE commenting on my example and my explanation. Perhaps I should have used the surefire accidental shooting lawsuit instead as a better example although the example doesn't really matter in terms of my point. We agree on assessing on real data and not fiction. But the question remains, can unsound practices you might ingrain in competition carry over? (I think the answer is yes) and part 2, is the increase in shooting skill an offset to any training scars you may develop as a result of competition? (I think the answer is possibly yes). The fallout question is, does it make sense to violate rules of competition to keep from developing training scars if competition is not your focus? (In my opinion the answer is yes again) But I know what all my opinions are. Im interested in other opinions.

jetfire
10-06-2014, 10:12 AM
Except the "picking up brass" thing is totally an urban legend.

http://www.gunnuts.net/2013/07/22/tactical-mythbusting-revolver-brass-in-the-pocket/

Glenn E. Meyer
10-06-2014, 10:22 AM
Not to argue - by no means - but I read somewhere (duh? - it might have been in that new Newhall book) that brass pickup in that incident was false but Cirillo said that he saw in some incident he was involved in that there was brass pick up. If this is the case? The book is at home and it might be a false memory.

I do think competition practice is good for malfunction drills. Both my 1911 and never jam Glock (ha) will give some practice in that during some match or another.

jetfire
10-06-2014, 10:30 AM
The big problem with statements like that is they're really hard to actually verify. I'm not saying that it could have happened, there just isn't any actual hard documentation of it actually happening.

JV_
10-06-2014, 10:41 AM
but Cirillo said that he saw in some incident he was involved in that there was brass pick up.

Is the fact that there was brass pickup significant if we don't know when it was picked up?

Picking up brass after the BG was shot, and everything is secure, is a bit different than doing it mid-gunfight.

joshs
10-06-2014, 10:46 AM
But the question remains, can unsound practices you might ingrain in competition carry over? (I think the answer is yes) and part 2, is the increase in shooting skill an offset to any training scars you may develop as a result of competition? (I think the answer is possibly yes). The fallout question is, does it make sense to violate rules of competition to keep from developing training scars if competition is not your focus? (In my opinion the answer is yes again) But I know what all my opinions are. Im interested in other opinions.

You've structured it as a straight up trade-off (skill v. competition scars), but I don't think it has to be. I use the exact same gear in competition, but I don't use the same "tactics" in competition as I would if the targets were shooting back. For me, tactics are situational, so they are not something that I'm worried about subconsciously performing. Competition helps me to work on my subconscious application of skills, so that I can devote all conscious thought to tactics. Competition just requires different tactics to win than an average gunfight for an armed citizen likely would. You can try to put realistic tactics into competition, but there is a very dangerous trap where the tactics you are requiring might actually be bad since tactics are so situational. In KSTG, we've tried to set up structures that need to be cleared quickly or slowly depending on the scenario. E.g., use of cover lines and hard angle targets inside the structure that require shooters to slow down and do a "hard setup" for each corner v. a scenario that starts with "you hear your significant other screaming at the end of this dark, crooked hallway" that requires the shooters to haul through the hallway shooting targets as they appear then make a hostage rescue shot at the end.

Put another way, I try to use "good" tactics no matter what I am doing. I define good as being those tactics that are most likely to result in me winning.

KeeFus
10-06-2014, 10:51 AM
FWIW, brass on the ground needs to stay brass on the ground...and marked as soon as possible. We police brass on our range after the shooting is done...and after my OIS the whereabouts of the brass was not a thought. I have heard of officers doing it but I think it's counterintuitive to think the officers (even in the 70's) wouldn't know it was evidence and needed to stay where it was.

shane45
10-06-2014, 10:53 AM
Again, the brass story isn't the point. Repetitive learned behaviors found in competition that would be bad to repeat in a real incident is. Im sorry I picked that example :o

shane45
10-06-2014, 10:56 AM
joshs, good points and you hit on one of the very things I worry about. Habitually moving from cover quickly from being "on the clock". Sounds like you address that specifically.

JV_
10-06-2014, 10:59 AM
shane45 - Regardless of the specific example, it would need to be picked apart. You can't really argue against "learned behaviors" until someone gets to the next question: which ones?

JV_
10-06-2014, 11:37 AM
FWIW, brass on the ground needs to stay brass on the ground...and marked as soon as possible. We police brass on our range after the shooting is done...and after my OIS the whereabouts of the brass was not a thought. I have heard of officers doing it but I think it's counterintuitive to think the officers (even in the 70's) wouldn't know it was evidence and needed to stay where it was.

I don't disagree with what you've written, I was just clarifying that picking up brass doesn't necessarily get you killed. Examples of brass in someone's pocket is just interesting without more data.

shane45
10-06-2014, 11:37 AM
JV, good point! I was actually going to list the ones that concern me but was waiting for the brass thing to die down first LOL.

So I'll kick off the list:

the concept of being on the clock, rushing from cover.
Shooting from open positions without cover even if available
engaging multiple targets with a set number of shots on each
Add your own here.

Conversely the advantages are:
Some form of stress indoc
Gun handling
Shooting skills
problem solving
add your own here

BJJ
10-06-2014, 11:44 AM
I have some thoughts on this issue that would take too long to type on my phone right now.

I would like to hear input on this issue from the following people: Tom Givens, Dr No, Nyeti, Wayne Dobbs, John Hearne.

joshs
10-06-2014, 11:47 AM
So I'll kick off the list:

the concept of being on the clock, rushing from cover.
Shooting from open positions without cover even if available
engaging multiple targets with a set number of shots on each
Add your own here.

Conversely the advantages are:
Some form of stress indoc
Gun handling
Shooting skills
problem solving
add your own here

I think the cover issue is a bit overblown. Have you ever done force-on-force? When people shoot stuff at you, even airsoft (actually even lasers), you tend to try to hide behind things more.

shane45
10-06-2014, 11:55 AM
Pain is a good reminder! Here is an article I bookmarked long ago. I do not know of the credibility of it. Perhaps some here can either debunk or confirm validity.

http://www.killology.com/on_combat_ch2.htm

jetfire
10-06-2014, 12:08 PM
Well, it's by Dave Grossman, so that pretty much ruins its credibility from the get-go.

Edit: Also, HOLY S*** that is literally the exact article I was talking about when I wrote the post busting the myth about officers putting brass in their pockets. It's false. It has never happened, and there are literally no CREDIBLE records of it ever happening.

joshs
10-06-2014, 12:26 PM
Pain is a good reminder! Here is an article I bookmarked long ago. I do not know of the credibility of it. Perhaps some here can either debunk or confirm validity.

http://www.killology.com/on_combat_ch2.htm

Pain isn't as important as participants and role-players who understand the objective. I did a lot of really stupid things when playing paintball competitively that would constitute bad tactics for fighting with real guns and resulted in quite a lot of pain, that nevertheless won paintball games, so I kept doing them. I think that is another example of why I don't see competition as ingraining bad tactics. I don't think about competition tactics any different than I thought about paintball tactics, the objective in both cases was to win, and I did the best I could to achieve that objective.

When approaching "cover" in competition, I'm not thinking about using cover correctly to shoot some bad guys around a corner, I'm instead thinking about nailing my setup so that I can shoot the targets as fast as possible without getting any penalties. I'm not anymore worried about engaging the "competition tactics" neural pathways in my brain when I really need the "gunfight tactics" neural pathways, than I am about engaging any of the other thousands (millions?) of skill pathways that are in my brain*.


*I don't know if this is really how the brain works, but it's how I've convinced myself that trying to win in competition won't get me killed on the street ;).

Chuck Haggard
10-06-2014, 12:29 PM
A very real training scar is that of the incident debriefed heavily by Marine Paul Gardner in which he critiques his own very real training scars similar in nature to the "brass in pocket" stories

Clip from the larger story;

So, what did I do when it was time for me to reload my M16 that fateful day? I pressed the magazine release, pulled the empty magazine out of the mag well and inserted the empty magazine back into one of my mag pouches. This took a couple extra seconds to do, especially considering I was inserting it into a pretty tight pouch that already had a magazine in it. The fresh magazine in the pouch was positioned bullets-up as well, because way too many rounds would fall out of it when I tried carrying bullets down in the pouch. I'm guessing that's because the feed lips on the magazine were worn, but I knew nothing about what constituted a bad magazine back then and especially didn't know that magazines were a disposable component. After indexing a fresh magazine, I shoved it into the mag well until it seated and then finally, after at least 8 seconds, pressed the bolt release and sent another round flying into the chamber.

I was also looking down at my weapon and gear the entire time I was reloading. Thus, when I was finally done reloading and looked back in the direction of the enemy bunker only 20 yards away from me, the very same enemy fighter who I'd just shot and assumed that I had permanently put down was now standing at my 11 o’clock, at the corner of the bunker, and aiming directly at me with his AK47 assault rifle.]

While I have not seen anyone catching brass to pocket it, because by the time I got on the job that story was legend, I have seen officers catching brass to throw it away from them before reloading, catching empty magazines in the middle of an emergency reload, and too many other poor habits/training scars to mention.

While it is possible if one isn't thinking things through to end up with such issues through competition, saying competition will get you killed is very much throwing the baby out with the bath water.

As noted, Vickers and Hackathorn started IDPA for a reason. Jim Cirillo learned to shoot a revolver VERY accurately, at speed, and under pressure, shooting PPC (which BTW was widely derided as not being "tactical").

This guy is kind of tactical, and he thinks people should compete; http://soldiersystems.net/2012/08/18/gunfighter-moment-mcnamara/

And apparently this guy doesn't know that competition will get you killed yo; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgDHsxHvKYc and he is also kinda tactical.

While looking around for more examples I had not yet seen I stumbled across this gem;
http://vuurwapenblog.com/2012/07/05/training-with-military-vs-competition-shooters/

In which Mike Pannone is quoted. Recently I saw this;
Congratulations to Mike Pannone for making USPSA Limited Master & Limited 10 Master this month. ref Mike.

Pup town
10-06-2014, 01:10 PM
I think the cover issue is a bit overblown. Have you ever done force-on-force? When people shoot stuff at you, even airsoft (actually even lasers), you tend to try to hide behind things more.

You mean after you get lit up a few times? Or from the start? If it's the latter, I disagree (and I've done lots of FOF with sims and paintballs - not airsoft).

I learned a lesson at Gryphon Group, where the instructors have hopped-up automatic paintball guns to shoot ropes of paintballs at you. I (and others) thought we were using cover, until we started getting stung. And then you really start to use cover (though that's not perfect, either. We were taking cover behind wheels, which is stops all paintballs but not all bullets.)

At various other places I've seen folks think they were using cover only to have the instructor calmly tag them in the head with a paintball. The threat of getting shot with a paintball wasn't enough. People need to be tagged a few times for them to learn what they are (or aren't) doing.

Mr_White
10-06-2014, 01:16 PM
A very real training scar is that of the incident debriefed heavily by Marine Paul Gardner in which he critiques his own very real training scars similar in nature to the "brass in pocket" stories

I also think it's worth noting in the Paul Gardner example that it seems like his training scar did not come from competitive shooting.

We could even surmise that had he competed, in say 3-gun, he might have reloaded much more expeditiously....or maybe shot the guy better in the first place.



I think training scars are an inherent risk to all training and practice. Their risk has to be dealt with by engaging in training and practice that has been constructed to not engender unnecessary training scars, and by using a variety of training and practice modalites so that training scars that might be acquired from one type of training are mitigated by what's done in another type of training.

Mr_White
10-06-2014, 01:25 PM
Just a quick list off the top of my head of training scars that could come from competitive shooting, or are at least claimed by some to do so:

Dumping partially-filled magazines on the ground instead of retaining them (hmmm...sometimes this is taught as legitimate in tactical training...)

Misidentification of material suitable for use as cover

Nonexistent or poor use of 'cover'

Standing in open area exposed to multiple adversaries

Failure to engage adversaries through light barriers

Rushing toward known threats at maximum speed instead of retreating or fortifying current position

Shooting adversaries twice only

Superficial or nonexistent thread ID and assessment

Nonexistent representation of opposing will by adversaries/cardboard don't shoot back or maneuver against your position and flank you

Lack of 'hard break'/follow through - hurrying to unload

Nonexistent post-shooting procedure/failure to get gun fully loaded before holstering

Unrealistic equipment - 'game' gun, belt, etc.

Inability to initiate action in absence of a timer beep

Action unconsciously and unintentionally initiated when a beep is heard outside of the game

Unrealistic WHO draw (draw with strong hand, transfer to support hand)

Unrealistic SHO and WHO malfunction clearance (both hands used)

All adversaries in known locations at start of stage/engagement

JV_
10-06-2014, 01:29 PM
IDPA's tactical sequence should be included.

Mr_White
10-06-2014, 01:30 PM
Now let's start a list for potential scars from tactical training:

Unrealistic equipment - 'class' gun, belt, etc.

Unrealistic quantity of magazines carried for class

Knee/elbow pads used in class but not in life

Nonexistent representation of opposing will by adversaries/cardboard don't shoot back or maneuver against your position and flank you

Misidentification of material suitable for use as cover

Failure to engage adversaries through light barriers

Only taking one step instead of a more radical amount of movement during reloads and malfunction clearance (when on a line with other students)

Practicing to clear double feeds or otherwise manipulate gun within a distance that fails to address a threat aggressing/closing distance while gun is down

Dunning-Krueger effect on a person's estimation of their own skill level

Reverse Dunning-Krueger effect on a person's estimation of their own skill level – indoctrination into beliefs that head shots cannot realistically be made, hit ratio will be ~20% at best, won't be able to see or use sights, shooting will be done one-handed despite training to the contrary, etc.

'Worst case is the norm' - two is one, one is none, you better be able to clear a double-feed weak hand only while supine and backwards in a ditch, partial magazines must be retained in case you fire your other 61 rounds and need those two rounds that you dropped - good thing I just upped my load to 69 rounds.

Taking a knee in the open

Known extreme likelihood of needing to use force/deadly force when entering a scenario or FOF

Over-representation of malfunction rate when dummy rounds are introduced

Under-representation of reload rate if post-shooting procedure (topping off) is emphasized

Under-representation of stovepipe/failure to eject malfunctions that require rolling the gun on its side in order to clear with tap-rack

Superficial or nonexistent threat ID and assessment

Inability to initiate action in absence of a range command to do so

Action unconsciously and unintentionally initiated when a range command is heard outside of training

JV_
10-06-2014, 01:32 PM
OrigamiAK - My apologies. I deleted your first post on tactical training scars, I saw it as a double post at first glance.

TR675
10-06-2014, 01:32 PM
Just a quick list off the top of my head of training scars that could come from competitive shooting, or are at least claimed by some to do so:...


Now let's start a list for potential scars from tactical training:...

These posts win so hard.

Mr_White
10-06-2014, 01:36 PM
OrigamiAK - My apologies. I deleted your first post on tactical training scars, I saw it as a double post at first glance.

No prob JV. Actually thanks for saying so. For a moment there I thought maybe I did get heat stroke or something from class this weekend.

KevinB
10-06-2014, 01:36 PM
I also think it's worth noting in the Paul Gardner example that it seems like his training scar did not come from competitive shooting.
Correct -- old pre-war drills.



We could even surmise that had he competed, in say 3-gun, he might have reloaded much more expeditiously....or maybe shot the guy better in the first place.
Paul takes classes now - looking pretty bad ass (seriously) in his wheelchair.





I think training scars are an inherent risk to all training and practice. Their risk has to be dealt with by engaging in training and practice that has been constructed to not engender unnecessary training scars, and by using a variety of training and practice modalites so that training scars that might be acquired from one type of training are mitigated by what's done in another type of training.

Get out and seek new things, and test them.

One aspect I do like about competition is you need to push yourself -- frankly very very few qualification courses will do that.



To me - competition needs to be looked at as a form of training - and like any training take the good, discard the bad.

Mr_White
10-06-2014, 01:38 PM
To me - competition needs to be looked at as a form of training - and like any training take the good, discard the bad.

I think that's right on.

Dropkick
10-06-2014, 02:16 PM
I think it's safe to say that learning how to use cover (through Competition / Training / FoF) is better than finding out how it works in the heat of the moment.

shane45
10-06-2014, 02:21 PM
OrigamiAK, I seriously like the direction you have taken this. Ultimately its about avoiding pitfalls be it competitions or class. I don't have enough official training classes under my belt to speak on that side of the fence. But its a very good point that bad habits are not exclusive to competition and it seems a great idea to me to expand the discussion.

Glenn E. Meyer
10-06-2014, 03:11 PM
However, sometimes the perfect is the enemy of the good. Both competition and training venues cannot meet the all the scar problems without tremendous expense for facilities. Does that mean 'lesser' exercises are not worthwhile? I don't think so.

Maybe I've been lucky but my training experiences have avoided most of the flaws listed by OrigamiAK. As far as knee pads - well, tell my banged up knees that hurt for a week after my last endeavor or my bruised up forearms - that looked great at work.

For a FOG, I've done a good amount of FOF at the NTI and various training venues. They take quite a bit to set up . They were certainly not set up to be predictable as to opponents and outcomes in all situations. If crappy trainers don't well script the exercises and don't have competent role players to deal with the trainees, that's a different story.

It is still an empirical question, whether the flaws listed have generated a large number of critical incident failures for civilians and non-civilians in critical incidents as compared to the benefits of most competition and training. My experience, just for one point, is pretty intensive training on various malfunctions. Heck, I even took an injured shooter class with a broken strong side wrist and ribs. I broke them on purpose just for the class (not really - I just fell down and went boom).

Alpha Sierra
10-06-2014, 03:29 PM
I have nothing to prove my theory, but I believe that the brain can and does know the difference between games, training, and the real deal.

Mr_White
10-06-2014, 03:52 PM
However, sometimes the perfect is the enemy of the good. Both competition and training venues cannot meet the all the scar problems without tremendous expense for facilities. Does that mean 'lesser' exercises are not worthwhile? I don't think so.

Maybe I've been lucky but my training experiences have avoided most of the flaws listed by OrigamiAK.

Those lists included both that I think are reasonable concerns that need to be addressed somehow, somewhere in training (minimal movement when fixing a gun and at a short distance to a 'threat', unrealistic materials portrayed as 'cover', etc.), and what I think are some pretty laughable concerns (robot-drawing at the sound of a beep, inability to draw unless the 'up' command is heard.) I didn't mean to say that I think I have acquired all those habits/scars/points of unrealism from my training. I did mean that tactical training can be just as big a potential source of training scars, etc. as are other venues, and just as ridiculous concerns can be held about it too. I don't think expensive facilities can completely solve the realism problem, either.

To me, you make the point very well in the paragraphs I quoted. "Perfect is the enemy of good" very well describes an essential dilemma in this classic discussion:

Holding out for total realism just means you'll never get very good.

The answer is to work (train, practice, compete, etc.) and drive on. Or one could just remain unskilled or less skilled I guess.

Jared
10-06-2014, 04:03 PM
Somewhere on the 'net, I saw Stoeger post "Training scars are a possibility if you train, winning is an impossibility if you don't." That's probably my all-time favorite line about training scars.

I think that could very easily be applied to both competition and defensive handgunning.

JV_
10-06-2014, 04:13 PM
Yea, I like that.

NETim
10-06-2014, 04:32 PM
Additionally to Gabe's lists, I would add "not enough use of visual cues" to start action. (We're used to the audio "beep" thing.)

Stolen from the late Louis Awerbuck.

Glenn E. Meyer
10-06-2014, 04:37 PM
One training booboo to introduce some levity. When going into the three D shoot house carrying a pizza for a friend and finding blood every where - continue carrying the pizza as you clear and look for your buddy. Now, I didn't do this - but some did. I was praised for tossing the pizza at the start. Haha!

Now at an IDPA match, we were carrying an attache case full of diamonds and were supposed to carry that through the stage. I ditched it for a penalty. I could understand a one handed requirement but not carrying something stupid.

NETim
10-06-2014, 04:47 PM
One training booboo to introduce some levity. When going into the three D shoot house carrying a pizza for a friend and finding blood every where - continue carrying the pizza as you clear and look for your buddy. Now, I didn't do this - but some did. I was praised for tossing the pizza at the start. Haha!

Now at an IDPA match, we were carrying an attache case full of diamonds and were supposed to carry that through the stage. I ditched it for a penalty. I could understand a one handed requirement but not carrying something stupid.

Yep.

My last match, we started with a baby car seat in the weak hand and were supposed to carry the baby while engaging T1-T3 SHO, which I did. The next step involved placing the car seat in the back seat of a Suburban and slamming the door, to then engage the rest of the targets. Me, being a totally rotten SOB, I SLAMMED the baby car seat into the back of the Suburban at an excessive and utterly reckless velocity. (I think it bounced off the far side window.)

No procedurals were issued. That's life in the CDP lane. :)

Dagga Boy
10-06-2014, 04:59 PM
Do whatever it is that makes you happy as it really doesn't affect me.

Personally, from non-theory based observation and experience you will execute your habits at a sub-conscious or auto-pilot level. Habits are those things you do a lot and repetitively. After many years and trips down numerous roads, I am VERY careful now about what I make habits and what we teach. If you think your habits will separate themselves out during a life or death crisis, I hope you are right. From someone who spent their entire adult life training LEO's and looking at use of force incidents involving LEO's and how that is reflected from their training.....in my narrow window on the LEO side, if you are doing something to the point of unconscious habit, it will very likely come out in a crisis. You guys want LEO's on the trigger within a slight distance out of the holster in order for them to be highly competitive in Matches with a safety philosophy of that is only don't break 180 and make sure unintentional discharges just look like a miss, then that is awesome. I don't, but what do I know. THe simple snarky "it'll get you killed on da streetz" isn't really the issue. It's killing someone else on the street that isn't a proper, legal, and in policy use of lethal force that is really the issue.
The only reason I responded is because someone asked specifically in a post. It is simply my opinion and it isn't really worth arguing about on the net.

Glenn E. Meyer
10-06-2014, 05:06 PM
NETim, that is not as bad as at a Givens conference in Tulas, IIRC - someone threw the baby about 20 ft to get it to safety. OOPS.

I think we were supposed to carry it to safety, ya think?

LSP552
10-06-2014, 08:35 PM
Personally, from non-theory based observation and experience you will execute your habits at a sub-conscious or auto-pilot level. Habits are those things you do a lot and repetitively.



I'd like to expand on this just a bit. Scars that can effect your performance don't just happen in formal training. Anyone who has conducted basic/initial force on force training has probably seen TV show up. The best example I can give is LSP recruits grabbing their chest and slumping against a wall because a role player pointed a gun at them and made the big noise. Because everyone knows that's what happens when you get shot…..

BWT
10-06-2014, 11:16 PM
I'll tell you what I dislike about IDPA.

Shooting to slide lock is incentivicized to avoid penalties.

Using 10 rounds in magazines designed with higher capacity.

Not retaining magazines with rounds in them after ejecting being penalized. We're going to Walmart not Mogadishu.

Concealment that's unrealistic. I'm guilty; I just bought a paddle holster for 2-gun competition.

What's the best type of competitive shooting that will allow the things I've stated above without being penalized?

I'm thinking I need to start shooting from concealment in competition more.

HopetonBrown
10-06-2014, 11:58 PM
I'll tell you what I dislike about IDPA.

Shooting to slide lock is incentivicized to avoid penalties.

Using 10 rounds in magazines designed with higher capacity.

Not retaining magazines with rounds in them after ejecting being penalized. We're going to Walmart not Mogadishu.

Concealment that's unrealistic. I'm guilty; I just bought a paddle holster for 2-gun competition.

What's the best type of competitive shooting that will allow the things I've stated above without being penalized?

I'm thinking I need to start shooting from concealment in competition more.

I've heard that in a gunfight nobody counts rounds. so shooting to slide lock doesn't sound too outlandish for IDPA.

10 round magazines means more reloads, which is good practice.

Concealment that's unrealistic; nobody is forcing you to wear a fishing vest.

Lomshek
10-07-2014, 12:16 AM
You guys want LEO's on the trigger within a slight distance out of the holster in order for them to be highly competitive in Matches with a safety philosophy of that is only don't break 180 and make sure unintentional discharges just look like a miss, then that is awesome.

I know they exist but would hope that most competitive shooters, be they LEO or not, are not so reckless (or misguided) that they sacrifice safety to chase some imagined speed gain.

Mr_White
10-07-2014, 01:21 AM
I'll tell you what I dislike about IDPA.

Shooting to slide lock is incentivicized to avoid penalties.

Using 10 rounds in magazines designed with higher capacity.

Not retaining magazines with rounds in them after ejecting being penalized. We're going to Walmart not Mogadishu.

Concealment that's unrealistic. I'm guilty; I just bought a paddle holster for 2-gun competition.

What's the best type of competitive shooting that will allow the things I've stated above without being penalized?

I'm thinking I need to start shooting from concealment in competition more.

Not sure if 'best', but you can do all that in USPSA without penalty.

rob_s
10-07-2014, 04:55 AM
A very real training scar is that of the incident debriefed heavily by Marine Paul Gardner in which he critiques his own very real training scars similar in nature to the "brass in pocket" stories

.

"Training scar" or lack of training?

Having read and heard the story several times, it seems as though he was simply never taught another way. Or, I suppose, taught the "wrong" way. "Wrong" because it clearly was not the correct loading procedure for the situation at hand.

rob_s
10-07-2014, 04:58 AM
Again, the brass story isn't the point. Repetitive learned behaviors found in competition that would be bad to repeat in a real incident is. Im sorry I picked that example :o

Again, it IS the point if it's your only example of a "real world training scar".

If the thing you are afraid of having happen to you, never happened, then the whole argument is suspect, in which case one has to look for other reasons for the behavior.

Chuck Haggard
10-07-2014, 07:25 AM
"Training scar" or lack of training?

Having read and heard the story several times, it seems as though he was simply never taught another way. Or, I suppose, taught the "wrong" way. "Wrong" because it clearly was not the correct loading procedure for the situation at hand.

Would the latter not be a training scar?

rob_s
10-07-2014, 07:38 AM
Would the latter not be a training scar?

I dunno. It's another term that seems to be running out of usefulness because it's used/over-used/mis-used so much.

Either way, it doesn't necessarily seem to be a 1:1 for the topic of this thread relative to competition. Unless the theory goes that the guy that only shoots his Open gun in matches once a month actually thinks it translates to the .38 he keeps in his pocket at the office M-F.

MVS
10-07-2014, 08:03 AM
.
. Unless the theory goes that the guy that only shoots his Open gun in matches once a month actually thinks it translates to the .38 he keeps in his pocket at the office M-F.

Sadly I have talked to a number of people, who unless they were just messing with me, believe just that.

rob_s
10-07-2014, 08:43 AM
Sadly I have talked to a number of people, who unless they were just messing with me, believe just that.

Maybe that's the benefit to the much-maligned IDPA. While the IDPA shooter's vest may not be an untucked polo, and his Glock 34 in a Blade-Tech may not be his Ruger LCP in a pocket, they are more alike than the Open:j-frame ratio and the IDPA shooter may be more conscious of same simply because of the "timmy-ness" of the game.

I can say that IDPA is what got me interested in, or more interested in, or more seriouser about, defensive use of firearms. I had a permit when I started shooting IDPA, and had been carrying for years, but had never really done any sort of shooting beyond shooting at cans or paper bullseyes. I was introduced to "serious" training because of IDPA, I learned/improved my draw from concealment because of IDPA, I learned/improved my reloads because of IDPA, I learned the concept of cover, alternate holds to avoid non-targets, etc. all because of IDPA.

So let's take 2002 me, who had a permit, a safe full of guns I rarely shot, and a gun on my hip every single day. Reading some of the posts in this thread, I would almost think that some of you think that 2002 me was better prepared for a gunfight than 2014 me.

or, let's take the guy that's right out of the academy, has his shiny new belt and gun and car, and who shoots his department qual 2x a year. is that guy better off without competition?

Sure, we should all be taking AFHF and CQC and advanced low-light ninja secret squirrel classes 4x a year and then going to the indoor range 1x per week or more to practice 25 yard head shots from our appendix holster. Got it. But the inteligencia/gun-hipster community forgets that only the smallest of small percentage is going to do that. if a CCW citizen or a unformed cop can get to a match 4x a year but not a class, are we really going to say that he would be better off just shooting cans or his qual those 4x per year than an IDPA or USPSA match?

Josh Runkle
10-07-2014, 09:37 AM
I have nothing to prove my theory, but I believe that the brain can and does know the difference between games, training, and the real deal.

I would agree, however, how much of your brain are you actually using when you are scared?

I completely agree with and recommend reading nyeti's post, and would add: think about what happens when a deer jumps out right in front of your vehicle. You react in order to save your life. You don't think about it.

Glenn E. Meyer
10-07-2014, 09:37 AM
The 10 round IDPA thing;

1. One can shoot a 9 round gun - :). But it is a concession to the mag bans in states that have them. Personally, I would ditch it. However, it does give you practice in smooth reloads. So that's a mixed bag. Compare that to the unreality of civilian (whatever that is) gunfights - with 8 opponents that take multiple shots each. Maybe some reload practice is good.

2. The new no reload on the move behind cover rule (if I have that right) is incredibly stupid. I get called on it. Supposedly, real gunfighters suggested that they never reload on the move behind cover - uh? I get called on this.

3. Retaining mags with ammo - equally stupid - supposedly real gunfighters suggest that this is important (who knows beyond anecdotes).

It's a game. Get trigger time, aiming time, reload time. That's the fun. Use a real carry gun if you want or trade off for grins.

Mr_White
10-07-2014, 09:44 AM
Maybe that's the benefit to the much-maligned IDPA. While the IDPA shooter's vest may not be an untucked polo, and his Glock 34 in a Blade-Tech may not be his Ruger LCP in a pocket, they are more alike than the Open:j-frame ratio and the IDPA shooter may be more conscious of same simply because of the "timmy-ness" of the game.

There may not be many Open guns at an IDPA match, but there are many Glock 34s and other 'approximately similar to what the person carries' pistols being shot in Production and Limited in USPSA. Not disagreeing with your example, just adding that I think there are a bunch of USPSA shooters who also fit the pattern you describe.

I very much agree with the rest of your examples of people who will be better off for having participated in competition a little bit.

The term 'training scars' and its use in this thread seems to me to have become a catch-all for 'holes, misrepresentations, incorrect lessons, and aspects of training/practice/competition that don't translate into reality.' I'm certainly guilty of using it this way too. That may not fit a strict definition of 'training scar', but I think it makes sense to talk about it a little more broadly like we have been doing.

shane45
10-07-2014, 09:45 AM
"Again, it IS the point if it's your only example of a "real world training scar".

rob, you seem to be in another place in the conversation from others here... there are plenty of examples and now a running list....

I switched from IPSC to IDPA to avoid repetitive tasks I didn't want to continue to ingrain. I take penalties in IDPA to avoid tasks I don't want to ingrain. And should I find the time I now have some ideas about what to watch out for in training environments from those more experienced than I in this thread. These are the choices I make for myself. Of course everyone is free to do whatever they like. No single path is the correct path for everyone.

rob_s
10-07-2014, 09:51 AM
rob, you seem to be in another place in the conversation from others here... there are plenty of examples and now a running list....

Always. I take pride in it.

The difference being that I'm not trying to prove a foregone conclusion, or that when I am it's a different foregone conclusion that most here would leap to.

Many people with guns act, think, and behave as if there is this inevitable gunfight they are preparing for. it's a bullshit "mindset". Once you get over that, which a lot of people never do, things become a lot easier/clearer.

I used to think like you and the gen-pop here. I don't anymore. All these things you think matter, just simply don't. Or, don't to me. It's no sweat off my balls if someone else wants to get spun up in SHTFantasy, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to snipe at it when it's obvious.

rob_s
10-07-2014, 09:55 AM
There may not be many Open guns at an IDPA match, but there are many Glock 34s and other 'approximately similar to what the person carries' pistols being shot in Production and Limited in USPSA. Not disagreeing with your example, just adding that I think there are a bunch of USPSA shooters who also fit the pattern you describe.

Maybe. a lot of that is probably geographic. Around here USPSA is largely guys that would otherwise be golfing or fishing. The fact that they are shooting instead of those other things has almost no correlation to any practical or defensive application of firearms.

What I'm getting at is that, at least here, USPSA is entirely a game to probably 85%+ of the participants. IDPA, at least here, is probably 75%+ people who at least think they are gaining skills that help them in practical or defensive applications, however wrong they may be. My point is that the latter group is at least thinking about the correlations and making minor attempts to connect one to the other, while the former is wholly disconnected.

cclaxton
10-07-2014, 10:08 AM
Maybe that's the benefit to the much-maligned IDPA. While the IDPA shooter's vest may not be an untucked polo, and his Glock 34 in a Blade-Tech may not be his Ruger LCP in a pocket, they are more alike than the Open:j-frame ratio and the IDPA shooter may be more conscious of same simply because of the "timmy-ness" of the game.

I can say that IDPA is what got me interested in, or more interested in, or more seriouser about, defensive use of firearms. I had a permit when I started shooting IDPA, and had been carrying for years, but had never really done any sort of shooting beyond shooting at cans or paper bullseyes. I was introduced to "serious" training because of IDPA, I learned/improved my draw from concealment because of IDPA, I learned/improved my reloads because of IDPA, I learned the concept of cover, alternate holds to avoid non-targets, etc. all because of IDPA.

So let's take 2002 me, who had a permit, a safe full of guns I rarely shot, and a gun on my hip every single day. Reading some of the posts in this thread, I would almost think that some of you think that 2002 me was better prepared for a gunfight than 2014 me.

or, let's take the guy that's right out of the academy, has his shiny new belt and gun and car, and who shoots his department qual 2x a year. is that guy better off without competition?

Sure, we should all be taking AFHF and CQC and advanced low-light ninja secret squirrel classes 4x a year and then going to the indoor range 1x per week or more to practice 25 yard head shots from our appendix holster. Got it. But the inteligencia/gun-hipster community forgets that only the smallest of small percentage is going to do that. if a CCW citizen or a unformed cop can get to a match 4x a year but not a class, are we really going to say that he would be better off just shooting cans or his qual those 4x per year than an IDPA or USPSA match?
:eek:;) LIKE!!!
Cody

Mr_White
10-07-2014, 10:11 AM
Maybe. a lot of that is probably geographic. Around here USPSA is largely guys that would otherwise be golfing or fishing. The fact that they are shooting instead of those other things has almost no correlation to any practical or defensive application of firearms.

What I'm getting at is that, at least here, USPSA is entirely a game to probably 85%+ of the participants. IDPA, at least here, is probably 75%+ people who at least think they are gaining skills that help them in practical or defensive applications, however wrong they may be. My point is that the latter group is at least thinking about the correlations and making minor attempts to connect one to the other, while the former is wholly disconnected.

Fair enough. I am thinking of different people in USPSA than you are describing, and I may be selectively remembering too. Mostly what I'm going off of are the people I see in USPSA who aren't shooting race guns - so everyone in Production and Single Stack, and a lot of the people in Limited and L10.

Josh Runkle
10-07-2014, 10:12 AM
Sure, we should all be taking AFHF and CQC and advanced low-light ninja secret squirrel classes 4x a year and then going to the indoor range 1x per week or more to practice 25 yard head shots from our appendix holster. Got it. But the inteligencia/gun-hipster community forgets that only the smallest of small percentage is going to do that. if a CCW citizen or a unformed cop can get to a match 4x a year but not a class, are we really going to say that he would be better off just shooting cans or his qual those 4x per year than an IDPA or USPSA match?

It is absolutely better that someone who rarely shoots goes and shoots more, pushes themselves to be better, etc.

But seriously consider the Master Class shooter who does nothing but train for competition, doesn't take a variety of other training and then, because of a Dunning-Kruger effect, feels that they are equally as good at ECQB as they are at shooting a competition, despite the fact that they've never trained in it.

This thread is already full of people who are like, "Duh, my brain doesn't turn off just because a bad guy wants my money." And yet, they cannot conceive of being attacked during a momentary lapse in situational awareness, or a time when they read the situation wrong. They can't conceive of the fight beginning with them being pinned down, their bodyweight on top of their holster, and someone slamming their head into the concrete and that is the first thing they notice that a situation is about to occur. Or what about a Jared Reston situation? Many people can't fathom that the first thing that signals that a gunfight is about to start is the fact that a bullet has now ripped through your face. Instead, people have framed scenarios in their mind where they always have a gun, where their situational awareness is always 10/10 and they recognize a bad guy from afar, and where they are always firing from a standing or kneeling position (one where they are in control) and where the firing area never breaks the one-eighty.

Several years ago, here in Columbus, a guy I met later at a local gunstore was involved in a CCW shooting that was on the news here (and I went back and watched the video at the time). He was pumping gas, leaning against his car, and according to him, he was actively checking out everyone and his spidey-senses were very "aware" of what was going on. Unbeknownst to him, a person with severe mental illness was walking up and believed he was a man who had raped him as a child. (Though, the CCW guy was 22, the mentally ill person was in his 40's) The mentally ill person calmly and quietly approached, and "walking in between cars" (where you obviously notice someone, but can't tell them to back off) walked almost past him, turned, and hit him straight in the face with a sap, and then continued to unload on the back of his head as he was falling to the ground. The fight was ended by him drawing a gun that he was laying on, from a position he had never drawn before, he put the gun up between his left arm and body and fired (while protecting his head with his left arm), firing from a position he had never fired before. He had little to no experience, yet he prevailed, doing things he'd never practiced, simply because he had a gun.

Obviously, going to a few competitions would benefit him in knowing exactly where his holster is, or clearing malfunctions, or building a stronger interest in firearms, etc.

I worry more about the person who shoots the same way every day, and never trains for anything else. If you are acting subconsciously (per Nyeti, and I concur) and everything you've ever done is based on never breaking the one-eighty, would you fire blindly at a target? If you've always trained to recover for a run, would you try to get back on your feet? If you've spent every day ingraining your draw stroke a certain way, would you try to recover to a certain position in order to draw?

In my opinion, competition is wonderful, as long as people realize that it puts your subconscious skillset in a box, when you are a person who does nothing but that, several days a week, and that if you do nothing but compete, but you are serious about self-defense, every now and then, you need to take training that enables you to work outside the box, and add that to your subconscious repertoire.

I don't believe that competition will "get you killed", but I do think that it makes you severely overestimate skills for scenarios which you have not trained for.

ETA: by "you", I mean "one". Not a personal response, but an impersonal one.

joshs
10-07-2014, 10:19 AM
Maybe. a lot of that is probably geographic. Around here USPSA is largely guys that would otherwise be golfing or fishing. The fact that they are shooting instead of those other things has almost no correlation to any practical or defensive application of firearms.

I think this is very area dependent. Around here, most people that shoot USPSA are just "gun guys", I'd only expect to run into very few of them on a golf course. This local match is pretty representative of what I normally see around here: http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-display-match-results-detail.php?indx=12012

Over 40+ shooters in Production, 20+ in Limited, and almost always fewer than 10 in Open.

cclaxton
10-07-2014, 10:24 AM
It's killing someone else on the street that isn't a proper, legal, and in policy use of lethal force that is really the issue.

Nyeti, You make a really important point here. I used to shoot a match up in Lewisberry, PA that always had a shoothouse that you shot blind that used a 360 degree berm. These were IDPA targets, with non-threats and with some targets having guns and badges on them. You shot it on a 100 second par time. The first 8 times I shot this, I would hit a LE target or someone holding a wrench or someone behind another threat target. But, once I took my time to IDENTIFY THE TARGET AND WHAT WAS BEYOND IT....I can now shoot it clean and be under 100 seconds. But it took me many matches to learn this lesson: Identify the target before pulling the trigger. In IDPA and USPSA there are really only two kinds of targets: threats and non-threats, and that just isn't enough. One of my big complaints with IDPA is that it doesn't allow for these kinds of match stages, or something similar that would require identification of targets.

Because you are right....it is not only knowing how to shoot well, but WHEN to shoot and how to avoid shooting others in the process. And, I would also argue that those who carry need to have a non-lethal means of self-defense such as hand-to-hand skills or pepper/CS or both. Otherwise you only have one tool to respond with.
Cody

orionz06
10-07-2014, 10:38 AM
I don't believe that competition will "get you killed", but I do think that it makes you severely overestimate skills for scenarios which you have not trained for.

I wouldn't shoot competition to train for scenarios. I would shoot it as a measurement of my ability to shoot many arrays of targets with various required procedures in between and then compare how I did to how others did and to find places in my shooting where I can improve. Do I need to slow down to make certain shots, can I perform faster, am I moving needlessly slow with a gun in my hand or can I move more safely with a gun in my hand.

I think that's where a disconnect is. Some people think that other people are using a particular competition to determine how they would do in a random scenario. They're too tactical for their own good.

Josh Runkle
10-07-2014, 10:41 AM
I wouldn't shoot competition to train for scenarios. I would shoot it as a measurement of my ability to shoot many arrays of targets with various required procedures in between and then compare how I did to how others did and to find places in my shooting where I can improve. Do I need to slow down to make certain shots, can I perform faster, am I moving needlessly slow with a gun in my hand or can I move more safely with a gun in my hand.

I think that's where a disconnect is. Some people think that other people are using a particular competition to determine how they would do in a random scenario. They're too tactical for their own good.

I completely concur.

joshs
10-07-2014, 10:51 AM
I think that's where a disconnect is. Some people think that other people are using a particular competition to determine how they would do in a random scenario. They're too tactical for their own good.

Right. I don't worry that I'll try to use cover like I do in competition because I don't use cover in competition. I put my feet in a certain place that allows me to shoot the targets without getting a procedural.

"Cover" in competition isn't any different than a shooting box, but a lot of competitors hate shooting boxes and think shooting from "cover" is great.

I do generally agree with nyeti that competition can incentivize things that are not beneficial to "good" shooting. For midpack shooters, there is a lot of pressure to just go faster and eat a lot of Cs/-1s. I at one point did this and now make a very conscious effort to shoot nearly all As. I also think using different gear/guns can lead to developing subconscious skill that might be counter productive if you need your gun for real. These are the types of habits that I would worry about instilling in competition.

Mr_White
10-07-2014, 10:53 AM
there are plenty of examples and now a running list....

If it's the lists I posted that you are referring to, I'd like to be really clear about what I meant if I wasn't already. Some of the listed points represent legitimate holes/misrepresentations/points of unrealism in competition shooting, some in tactical training, and some that are common to both. Many are things that I think are a net positive, that also have an inherent possible downside that has to be addressed elsewhere. That doesn't mean I think the value provided in a certain thing is overridden by the potential risk of 'training scar', even though the risk is certainly there. Some items on the lists are downright laughable in my opinion and their inclusion represents a little bit of hyperbole, but I have seen them asserted as legitimate risks to being involved in competitive shooting.

Identification and use of cover as an example:

A giant point of unrealism in both tactical training and competition are the non-bullet stopping items used as cover. TRAINING SCAR! We could become conditioned to get behind material that won't actually stop bullets, but because YOU WILL FIGHT LIKE YOU TRAIN (to the point of absurdity), you can't figure that out in the moment and will get behind that dry wall expecting it to stop bullets. Then death in the streets will result.

Should we only use actual cover materials in training and competition? Nope. First, there is no way that is going to happen logistically. Second, it would be a safety hazard because some people will clear the sights but not the muzzle and blast the concrete parking bumper they have now realistically identified and are using as cover, and someone is going to take concrete and bullet fragments.

Should we forgo using unrealistic representations of cover in training and competition altogether because we want to avoid the inherent risk of developing the training scar of misidentifying suitable articles of cover? That is a realistic concern. But the answer is again, nope, because then we just are ignoring use of cover completely.

So where does that leave us? Right where we are - use unrealistically constructed cover in training and competition. Shore up the misrepresentation by shooting real materials at some point and finding out what happens, and/or by watching or reading about others who have the resources do the same. Further shore up the use of that cover material with FOF/Sims/airsoft/paintball, because when no one is shooting something back, as is the case in competition and live-fire tactical training, there is an overwhelming tendency to not use cover as tight as it really does need to be used, and the human dynamics of managing line of sight, and maneuvers branching from that cover position aren't represented at all.

My real point with the lists is that there are so many potential training scars in competition and tactical training that one simply cannot allow them to be the overriding concern, or nothing will get done.

Specify the drill/course of fire, and the potential training scars can be identified. Everything has the potential.

I don't always agree with Claude Werner about everything, but he has definitely persuaded me that the training community creates a lot of not-very-supportable boogeymen that represent either highly unlikely concerns or outright fantasy. Concern over training scars is a justification used to advance a lot those boogeymen.

Aray
10-07-2014, 10:56 AM
I wouldn't shoot competition to train for scenarios. I would shoot it as a measurement of my ability to shoot many arrays of targets with various required procedures in between and then compare how I did to how others did and to find places in my shooting where I can improve. Do I need to slow down to make certain shots, can I perform faster, am I moving needlessly slow with a gun in my hand or can I move more safely with a gun in my hand.

I think that's where a disconnect is. Some people think that other people are using a particular competition to determine how they would do in a random scenario. They're too tactical for their own good.

The disconnect aspect is right on. It is a game that is played, not training or practice for da streetz.

A fireman competing in the Firefighter's Combat Challenge (http://www.firefighterchallenge.com/) doesn't, IMO, set himself up to die in a real fire by training for and competing in that game either.

MVS
10-07-2014, 10:56 AM
.
.
.
Sure, we should all be taking AFHF and CQC and advanced low-light ninja secret squirrel classes 4x a year and then going to the indoor range 1x per week or more to practice 25 yard head shots from our appendix holster. Got it. But the inteligencia/gun-hipster community forgets that only the smallest of small percentage is going to do that. if a CCW citizen or a unformed cop can get to a match 4x a year but not a class, are we really going to say that he would be better off just shooting cans or his qual those 4x per year than an IDPA or USPSA match?

There is nothing special about me, but I do all of those things you talk about. When I first came on to the "tactical" scene, I was very anti competition because that is how the people I was learning from were. I would like to think I have grown and I now definitely believe shooting some competitions can be a good thing. I mostly only do it in the winter because we have an indoor range nearby. During the summer I am to into being a tactical timmie to have the time. btw, I prefer USPSA mostly because they alow me to carry the way I do every day in the real world.

shane45
10-07-2014, 11:07 AM
I meant collaboratively, and all open for discussion. But the way I interpret Rob_s, it reads like, "your odds of being in a gunfight are so low, don't bother with being concerned or wary of anything". That's great until, your the guy in the fight! It seems counterproductive to not pursue enhancing your skillset and continually re-evaluating if the path your on is good or could be improved upon. What exactly is the downside of avoiding "potential" pitfalls of competition or training as long as you are still participating in those activities?

Mr_White
10-07-2014, 11:17 AM
Nyeti, You make a really important point here. I used to shoot a match up in Lewisberry, PA that always had a shoothouse that you shot blind that used a 360 degree berm. These were IDPA targets, with non-threats and with some targets having guns and badges on them. You shot it on a 100 second par time. The first 8 times I shot this, I would hit a LE target or someone holding a wrench or someone behind another threat target. But, once I took my time to IDENTIFY THE TARGET AND WHAT WAS BEYOND IT....I can now shoot it clean and be under 100 seconds. But it took me many matches to learn this lesson: Identify the target before pulling the trigger. In IDPA and USPSA there are really only two kinds of targets: threats and non-threats, and that just isn't enough. One of my big complaints with IDPA is that it doesn't allow for these kinds of match stages, or something similar that would require identification of targets.

Because you are right....it is not only knowing how to shoot well, but WHEN to shoot and how to avoid shooting others in the process. And, I would also argue that those who carry need to have a non-lethal means of self-defense such as hand-to-hand skills or pepper/CS or both. Otherwise you only have one tool to respond with.
Cody

Just to try to more persistently make my point about training scars: what you are describing as 'better', based on that blind, target-ID stage in a match, could also give rise to a wicked training scar. What you have described is NOT realistic threat ID and assessment. You are describing assessing them for Ability and Opportunity, at best, but not Jeopardy, the critical behavioral element that differentiates a person carrying their duck shotgun from their garage to their truck, from a person who is using, attempting to use, or threatening to use that shotgun unlawfully against another person.

orionz06
10-07-2014, 11:18 AM
What exactly is the downside of avoiding "potential" pitfalls of competition or training as long as you are still participating in those activities?

Not shooting as well under pressure. That's a huge downside IMHO. Having seen very sound and skilled "tactical" shooters fall apart at an IDPA match tells me that there is something lacking in their training. Can it be addressed without shooting competing? Absolutely. Easily? Nope, at least not as frequently as one can shoot local matches.

luckyman
10-07-2014, 11:36 AM
The disconnect aspect is right on. It is a game that is played, not training or practice for da streetz.


From my perspective the point is more; are you playing the game enough , and don't have more counter-volume of practice in the "street safe" alternate technique, that the game technique becomes your habit?

I know I personally was completely burned on my use of cover the other weekend. When put into a semi-stressful situation my body immediately performed my habit of sticking out too much from cover, even while my brain knew that was the wrong thing to do.

David S.
10-07-2014, 11:49 AM
I don't see anybody in this thread, or in the many like it, suggesting that competition should be the only form of training, or even the primary form of training. I don't see anybody suggesting that training for competition is a valid way to train for armed conflict on the streets. That just doesn't jive with P-F mindset, if there is such a thing.

If there is a general P-F paradigm, then competition is simply used to objectively evaluate a certain skill set, under pressure, against others. Nobody here believes that the skill set evaluated in competition is all-inclusive. Everyone here knows that there are techniques used in competition that are not valid on "the street", and if used as real-world techniques, could get you killed. Everyone here knows that competition training needs to be supplemented with tactical training. Or maybe better stated... Tactical training ought to be be supplemented with competition and competition training. There may be a different consensus elsewhere, but I've never seen anybody seriously suggest it here.

It seems that the vast majority of P-F members are primarily interested in self-defense from a CHL holder, LEO, or MIL perspective. As a result, the P-F paradigm, if there is such a thing, simply recommends that armed citizens (including LEO/MIL) recognize competition for what it is and integrate it into their holistic training program.

ST911
10-07-2014, 12:01 PM
I wouldn't shoot competition to train for scenarios. I would shoot it as a measurement of my ability to shoot many arrays of targets with various required procedures in between and then compare how I did to how others did and to find places in my shooting where I can improve. Do I need to slow down to make certain shots, can I perform faster, am I moving needlessly slow with a gun in my hand or can I move more safely with a gun in my hand.

I think that's where a disconnect is. Some people think that other people are using a particular competition to determine how they would do in a random scenario. They're too tactical for their own good.

I like this post.

I've shot ~40 club matches in the last ~18 months. They earned me no ninja merit badges. They did expose strengths and weaknesses in various aspects of my shooting, and improved my decision making in solving shooting problems. On the "street" such knowledge helps my selection of complementary and compensatory tactics. I also had a lot of fun, saw a lot of guns and gear fail, and met some like-minded folks. For me, competition is a piece of the total package.

As for cops at matches, the ego is the big hurdle. In my universe, most of the "that stuff will get you killed..." comments are from those less capable, more ego driven, or more entrenched in a fixed dogma. I typically see far more juniors than anyone LE-related at matches.

shane45
10-07-2014, 12:02 PM
Not shooting as well under pressure. That's a huge downside IMHO. Having seen very sound and skilled "tactical" shooters fall apart at an IDPA match tells me that there is something lacking in their training. Can it be addressed without shooting competing? Absolutely. Easily? Nope, at least not as frequently as one can shoot local matches.

Re-read my post as it relates to my other posts as I believe you misread it. At no time do I say don't compete or train. I am saying, what is the down side to avoid the components you have concerns about. For example(with NO emphasis on this specific concern, real or imagined, just a random pick), if you don't want to rush from cover until you have observed the area, then don't, but you wont win, which I am fine with.

Alpha Sierra
10-07-2014, 12:27 PM
think about what happens when a deer jumps out right in front of your vehicle. You react in order to save your life. You don't think about it.

Unconscious competence of driving skills gives your brain the time to assess and react with the correct response. In the case of a road collision avoidance, the right answer is not necessarily slamming on the brakes.

Now, that is what about 90% of the driving public does (slamming the brakes). Those with more driving training/experience (EVOC, serious autocrossers, amateur road racers, etc) have a much higher degree of skill and can actually decide very very fast on which is the best solution to the problem. Maybe accelerating is the way to avoid collision (as counterintuitive as it may seem).

Roundabout way of saying that not needing to think about how to shoot gives the brain time to think about what else to do, even under extreme stress.

Again, my uneducated opinion.

Dr. No
10-07-2014, 07:27 PM
I'd like to chime in here with my .02 ... Being a 94.7% M class USPSA guy (read: one more classifier to GM) and an Expert classified 3 gun nation guy ... as well as a full time SWAT guy ... I run into this issue/question/conversation quite a bit.

I think it really boils down to this:

If you are keeping score, it's a game. Games are for weapon manipulation, marksmanship practice, and match mindset. They have absolutely nothing to do with tactics. There is not a single live gun game we play that has *anything* to do with tactics. I have been involved in 2 48 hour force on force exercises held in the Bay Area - they are billed as training and tactics, however ... they are scored. The minute you make something a game and put prizes up for the winners, people will do whatever they need to in order to win. Most of the time these are not things done "tactically". There may be tactical concepts worked into certain games, but they are rarely employed correctly by competitors who win.

Sometimes I see people who want to go play a game with "what I carry" and "shoot it tactically". Then they follow the game rules which dictate they generally change something about the way they carry and make them do silly or worthless things in an effort to be "tactical". It's a game. Enjoy playing the game.

I always laugh when you have a shoothouse stage that is being run by a single competitor ... and graded on time. When in fact, 99% of the time, speed is what will get you killed when you are hunting in a structure by yourself. I like the idea a poster had above of going through a large amount of threats and having a par time. That's a good way to make people make decisions in a reasonable timeframe. I would predict a large amount of people who would complete it successfully ... and that's not going to be a good way to run a game. :)

Anyway back to the point - competition is about manipulation, marksmanship, and mental focus/match mindset. Tactics are learned in a completely different environment which then stresses operating safely, practicality, and tactical decisions.

IMO, the accomplished competition shooter will have a much easier time and have more success functioning in a high stress tactical environment because they are used to working under pressure and have developed firearms manipulation and shooting skills into their subconscious, freeing up their mind to think about the giant tactical sh*t sandwich in front of them they are taking bites of. They will have more accurate shots when they choose to pull the trigger.

I think one of the biggest deficiencies non-LE tacticians have is they have very little to no understanding on the use of force. You will often in a CHL class hear the question "When can I shoot someone" and the answer is somewhat complicated. There are very few classes for non-LE which study and exercise this mental muscle. LE on the other hand are trained in it regularly and work their way through the force continuum on a daily basis, frequently going hands on with suspects. I have gone from nothing to pointing a gun at someone to holstering and chasing them to using a baton to holding on to them again. The answer to the tactical question is very often boring and non-violent. Most people don't like practicing de-escalation. I can just imagine putting on a training class where 90% of the answers to the problem are for the student to "just walk away". Heh. Anyway ....

Shoot competition. It's fun. It'll make you a better shooter and calmer under pressure. If you want to become a tactician, train with men who are teaching tactics classes. The End.

Glenn E. Meyer
10-07-2014, 08:23 PM
That's an excellent post and I really found
I think one of the biggest deficiencies non-LE tacticians have is they have very little to no understanding on the use of force. You will often in a CHL class hear the question "When can I shoot someone" and the answer is somewhat complicated telling as a non LE.

I have heard that students complain when they don't get to shoot enough in a tactical class. Folks don't want to spend $500 bucks for a weekend and not get to kill bad guys. Luckily in the Austin, San Antonio area - we've had advanced courses with planned FOF scenarios that are best negotiated without shooting. It is fun, in a sense, to watch folks new to the FOF game get 'killed'. I recall one set of exercises where you are the home champion in the bed room with the good ol' pump shotgun. You hear a break-in down the hall. The solution is to hunker down and deter the BGs with appropriate commands. However, the new folks had to go down the hall to defend the TV. All of them were knocked on their rumps or taken out in that fatal funnel. It was sobering. But you have to get beyond looking stupid and abandon ego. Many won't. I had an LEO not talk to me for months when I ambushed him (totally predictable). He said it wasn't fair. This is not to say I am better than officers - it was just the way this one went down.

Most officers I've trained with are fine folk and great students and interactive scholars of the art.

GJM
10-07-2014, 08:35 PM
Dr No, excellent post.

I have a pretty good handle how to evaluate technical shooting skills instructors. How does one go about evaluating a tactics instructor? In days past, it was pretty simple -- go to Gunsite or Thunder Ranch, where today, we have Facebook, forums, and You Tube to inform us.

NETim
10-07-2014, 08:51 PM
Dr No, excellent post.

I have a pretty good handle how to evaluate technical shooting skills instructors. How does one go about evaluating a tactics instructor? In days past, it was pretty simple -- go to Gunsite or Thunder Ranch, where today, we have Facebook, forums, and You Tube to inform us.

Youtube has made everything else obsolete.


http://youtu.be/HkIXuRH1hjg

Alpha Sierra
10-07-2014, 09:17 PM
Thank you. I am dumber now for having watched that.

Dr. No
10-07-2014, 09:34 PM
Dr No, excellent post.

I have a pretty good handle how to evaluate technical shooting skills instructors. How does one go about evaluating a tactics instructor? In days past, it was pretty simple -- go to Gunsite or Thunder Ranch, where today, we have Facebook, forums, and You Tube to inform us.

A good question - I would posit that you would evaluate them the same way as all instructors.

1. What is the training and background? Would they be SME's in this particular area of instruction?
2. Do they have hands on/real world application conducting the methods and tactics they are teaching?
3. Do their methods and tactics pass the 'sniff test'? Most should be common sense built on sound principles.

Go train with a few of them. Keep an open mind. Once you've been through a few classes and done some practicals you will start to figure out what works. It is usually very very apparent when an instructor doesn't have a clue or is teaching garbage.

A much wiser man than once dropped a telling thought bomb on me in training:

(((This is paraphrased))) I never evaluate a SWAT team's competency based on how fit they are or how well they can shoot. Instead I look at how they handle safety as a whole, operationally and in training. (((/P))) -- Paul Howe

TR675
10-07-2014, 09:43 PM
Youtube has made everything else obsolete.

Oh man...I looked at his webpage. That poor guy. 10 lbs of crazy in a 5 lb bag...

KeeFus
10-07-2014, 10:38 PM
Youtube has made everything else obsolete.


http://youtu.be/HkIXuRH1hjg

Guy says he lives in Topeka...calling Chuck...:D

GJM
10-07-2014, 10:52 PM
P
A good question - I would posit that you would evaluate them the same way as all instructors.

1. What is the training and background? Would they be SME's in this particular area of instruction?
2. Do they have hands on/real world application conducting the methods and tactics they are teaching?
3. Do their methods and tactics pass the 'sniff test'? Most should be common sense built on sound principles.

Go train with a few of them. Keep an open mind. Once you've been through a few classes and done some practicals you will start to figure out what works. It is usually very very apparent when an instructor doesn't have a clue or is teaching garbage.

A much wiser man than once dropped a telling thought bomb on me in training:

(((This is paraphrased))) I never evaluate a SWAT team's competency based on how fit they are or how well they can shoot. Instead I look at how they handle safety as a whole, operationally and in training. (((/P))) -- Paul Howe

Thanks again for another good post.

Despite having taken 20+ tactical courses over the years at places like Gunsite, TR, and with Cain, Jeans and Awerbuck, it remains pretty hard to evaluate tactical courses. I am still waiting on a course just for me, taught by a GM who has managed to avoid fisticuffs and CCW shootings, while having killed 20 brown bears.

PS: YVK wonders whether you will be the first production GM to do that shooting an HK?

Tom Givens
10-07-2014, 11:25 PM
Dr. No really nailed it in post number 128. The main advantage of shooting in competition is familiarity and skill with your equipment. The goal is to automate your responses with equipment so that you can think about the evolving tactical situation rather than "how does my gun work?"

I was involved in the earliest days of IPSC, being one of the original section coordinators. I was involved in the earliest days of IDPA, with a member number A00008. I shot on the rifle team in high school and shot PPC early in my law-enforcement career. None of these competitive endeavors hurt me on the street. On the contrary, they allowed me to have confidence in both my gear and my own skills, allowing me to keep my head in some pretty exciting circumstances. To me that is one of the primary advantages of competitive shooting.

Training, practice and competition build skill. Skill builds confidence. Confidence avoids panic. If you can avoid panic and focus your mental energies on the situation you are far more likely to prevail. Having a high skill level makes this a lot easier. Shooting in competition makes achieving a high skill level easier.

rob_s
10-08-2014, 04:55 AM
what exactly is the downside of avoiding "potential" pitfalls of competition or training as long as you are still participating in those activities?

None, except that it's BS. You're pre-supposing a bunch of things are going to, or might, happen that simply aren't.

But if people want to turn a match into another LARPing opportunity, have at it. I see it all the time, and used to do it myself.

Dr. No
10-08-2014, 07:39 AM
x

PS: YVK wonders whether you will be the first production GM to do that shooting an HK?

I am not sure ... I know the other folks on the team were already GM's when they were brought on, so quite possibly ...


Despite having taken 20+ tactical courses over the years at places like Gunsite, TR, and with Cain, Jeans and Awerbuck, it remains pretty hard to evaluate tactical courses. I am still waiting on a course just for me, taught by a GM who has managed to avoid fisticuffs and CCW shootings, while having killed 20 brown bears.


I think a lot of people suffer from the "I don't know enough to give educated feedback" - this is especially true of beginners.

I think most instructors are very good at what they teach. It's just a matter of finding out the people teaching the right subject material..

shane45
10-08-2014, 09:00 AM
rob_s, it seems some here see a real concern about repetitive tasks and how that may translate, and you do not. After reading the comments here, my opinion, at least for now, holds fast. So I think we can agree, we disagree.

Alpha Sierra
10-08-2014, 11:31 AM
rob_s, it seems some here see a real concern about repetitive tasks and how that may translate, and you do not. After reading the comments here, my opinion, at least for now, holds fast. So I think we can agree, we disagree.
Don't be so disingenious.

Just as some have a concern that competition will lead to "training scars", others including at least one SME do not.

Chuck Haggard
10-08-2014, 11:49 AM
Anything we do repetitively can lead to making a habit. Whether those habits are good or bad is upon us to fix. Competition can ingrain habits, as can almost anything else in the human experience.

Aristotle might have talked about some shit like this, and I'm pretty sure he didn't shoot competitively.

shane45
10-08-2014, 11:52 AM
Would you be able to sleep better at night if I said, "you and others"...? But it didn't strike me as the most common held consensus, regardless.

shane45
10-08-2014, 12:02 PM
Anything we do repetitively can lead to making a habit. Whether those habits are good or bad is upon us to fix. Competition can ingrain habits, as can almost anything else in the human experience.

Aristotle might have talked about some shit like this, and I'm pretty sure he didn't shoot competitively.

This is precisely my point. But it seems some believe any concerns are entirely invalid.

JV_
10-08-2014, 12:04 PM
But it seems some believe any concerns are entirely invalid.

Everyone is going to care about different things, think different things are possible, and plan accordingly. If after 145 posts you haven't convinced the other side, it's not going to happen in this thread.

Alpha Sierra
10-08-2014, 12:05 PM
Would you be able to sleep better at night if I said, "you and others"...? But it didn't strike me as the most common held consensus, regardless.

TBH I am not losing a whole lot of sleep over all of this.

shane45
10-08-2014, 12:38 PM
JV, agreed and perfectly happy to continue the discussion down the paths that it was going, the fantasy talk nonsense is the distraction.(yes I had to look up what larping was lol). Im not here to convince anyone else, just to pick out the information that seems to have merit to help form my own direction. But to be told I'm in fantasy land because I might have a concern, for example, with what Matt Burkett taught in class to not wait to see if your plate was falling, move on to save time, might become a nasty habit in real life. So I choose to make sure my targets are engaged which hurts no one or anything but my own score. No down side that I can see.

cclaxton
10-08-2014, 07:46 PM
Dr. No really nailed it in post number 128. The main advantage of shooting in competition is familiarity and skill with your equipment. The goal is to automate your responses with equipment so that you can think about the evolving tactical situation rather than "how does my gun work?"

I was involved in the earliest days of IPSC, being one of the original section coordinators. I was involved in the earliest days of IDPA, with a member number A00008. I shot on the rifle team in high school and shot PPC early in my law-enforcement career. None of these competitive endeavors hurt me on the street. On the contrary, they allowed me to have confidence in both my gear and my own skills, allowing me to keep my head in some pretty exciting circumstances. To me that is one of the primary advantages of competitive shooting.

Training, practice and competition build skill. Skill builds confidence. Confidence avoids panic. If you can avoid panic and focus your mental energies on the situation you are far more likely to prevail. Having a high skill level makes this a lot easier. Shooting in competition makes achieving a high skill level easier.
Great post. Being that you were so early in IDPA, did anyone ever write a guide/book/document explaining the rationale for each rule (other than safety rules)?

Thanks,
Cody

JV_
10-08-2014, 08:06 PM
Training, practice and competition build skill. Skill builds confidence. Confidence avoids panic. If you can avoid panic and focus your mental energies on the situation you are far more likely to prevail. Having a high skill level makes this a lot easier. Shooting in competition makes achieving a high skill level easier.

Very well said.

shane45
10-08-2014, 09:03 PM
Am I remembering it wrong? Wasn't there a judging component in the early days of IDPA where some of the scoring was based on how well you approached the stage?

_JD_
10-08-2014, 09:23 PM
Am I remembering it wrong? Wasn't there a judging component in the early days of IDPA where some of the scoring was based on how well you approached the stage?

Like if you rolled up in a Cadillac or what?

Sent via Tapatalk and still using real words.

Tom Givens
10-08-2014, 09:46 PM
No. You are thinking of the NTI, most likely. That was mostly subjective scoring.

rob_s
10-09-2014, 04:41 AM
Am I remembering it wrong? Wasn't there a judging component in the early days of IDPA where some of the scoring was based on how well you approached the stage?

Is every belief or opinion you have based on mis-remembered, made-up, boogeyman stories?

This is the point I was trying to make before. You are certainly entitled to ninja-out at whatever match you want to, but you, and others who behave like you, seem to always do so from a very misguided and unsubtantiate-able position because of the vast amount of BS that surrounds this issue, most of which I believe to have been started by people that simply didn't perform well at matches and in turn looked for excuses not to participate, or excuses as to why they didn't place well (I.e. Because:ninja). As I've said, I used to share your view, and your behavior. I just don't anymore.

This is why I press you, and anyone like you, to come up with documentable evidence of a shooting that ended badly because the good guy employed competition tactics or defaulted to "training scars". Not the Pretenders scenario (get it? Brass in Pocket?), because that wasn't a result of competition shooting and cannot be documented meaning it didn't happen.

The point, here, is that you're behavior is based on nothing. No documentable examples, no factual basis in reality, and perhaps at best the opinions of others in whom you place (perhaps misguided?) trust and belief. If those same people used the Pretenders story to help sway your opinion, and that story turned out to be wrong, then what else are they getting wrong?

I'm not trying to change your mind. I don't think you're ready for the red pill yet. But maybe this discussion will be seen by people that haven't made up their minds yet, and who are willing to become their own SME though the t"trust, but verify" method.

Odin Bravo One
10-09-2014, 05:30 AM
Is every belief or opinion you have based on mis-remembered, made-up, boogeyman stories?

This is the point I was trying to make before. You are certainly entitled to ninja-out at whatever match you want to, but you, and others who behave like you, seem to always do so from a very misguided and unsubtantiate-able position because of the vast amount of BS that surrounds this issue, most of which I believe to have been started by people that simply didn't perform well at matches and in turn looked for excuses not to participate, or excuses as to why they didn't place well (I.e. Because:ninja). As I've said, I used to share your view, and your behavior. I just don't anymore.

This is why I press you, and anyone like you, to come up with documentable evidence of a shooting that ended badly because the good guy employed competition tactics or defaulted to "training scars". Not the Pretenders scenario (get it? Brass in Pocket?), because that wasn't a result of competition shooting and cannot be documented meaning it didn't happen.

The point, here, is that you're behavior is based on nothing. No documentable examples, no factual basis in reality, and perhaps at best the opinions of others in whom you place (perhaps misguided?) trust and belief. If those same people used the Pretenders story to help sway your opinion, and that story turned out to be wrong, then what else are they getting wrong?

I'm not trying to change your mind. I don't think you're ready for the red pill yet. But maybe this discussion will be seen by people that haven't made up their minds yet, and who are willing to become their own SME though the t"trust, but verify" method.


Because something is not written down on the internet does not mean it didn't happen. I can provide countless incidents where "training scars" resulted in undesireable results, which are plenty documented. When those documents get reviewed in 25 years, perhaps they will be made available.

And the only way people will become their own SME is by viewing it from all sides........

GJM
10-09-2014, 07:00 AM
It seems to me that the downside of training scars needs to be balanced against the downside of not training.

Dagga Boy
10-09-2014, 07:07 AM
I'll simply pile on with Sean M......rob, how many actual shooting incidents have you been in, investigated, correlated with training versus performance, etc.? Much of what I teach is based on actual correlation with field results.
Additionally, if you think that because you don't perform well at matches is the reason for excuses, I really have no words. I am pretty much great with competition as good if you are not planning on "winning". One of the advocates of competition in this thread is known for lots of penalties in IDPA for doing things right. I've done the same thing. I just shot a match a couple weeks ago. The trigger finger discipline was horrendous. I never saw a single person cautioned..........which is because what I consider an issue for running a gun around people is different than at a match where it is "slower" to wait to get on the trigger and a proper index is not used (on a side note....the R/O of our group actually called my partner to comment on my gun handling skills and level of how I operated my handgun...even though I didn't "win"). Again, probably won't get you killed but others may have some issues.
I know this will get written off because these are all just excuses because I can't shoot......which is peachy, because I kind of like the idea of folks figuring that I am a duffer based on some play shooting rating.

Dagga Boy
10-09-2014, 07:10 AM
It seems to me that the downside of training scars needs to be balanced against the downside of not training.

I don't think there is any controversy on this........you need to be training-period. The issue is what that "training" is, what you are training for and what you are making sub-conscious habits and skills.

Chuck Haggard
10-09-2014, 07:27 AM
I'm shooting just very slightly under master class in IDPA even though I was running a stock G19 with a NY1 trigger from IWB under a T-shirt. Not the world's greatest IDPA guy, but with limited practice time, near 50 year old eyes and arthritis it ain't bad IMHO.

I'd do better in matches if I was willing to do stupid stuff like spring down make-believe hallways and such to get better time, but I am not willing.

orionz06
10-09-2014, 07:27 AM
And the only way people will become their own SME is by viewing it from all sides........

Correct. When I started saying this, and I may have been the first, it was because I felt that people were smart enough to arrive at reasonable solutions on their own without having their hand held by some "SME" who only has their own financial interest at heart.

Arriving at a reasonable solution requires considering of all things, not plugging ones ears and screaming LA LA LA when someone suggests something you don't like.

shane45
10-09-2014, 09:41 AM
Rob_s, you really seem to be driving at a myopically viewed position on every comment I make. The POINT of the question was if IDPA, way back at its inception, had a different focus and was morphed over time more to the "game" side of the fence(not saying this is the case, just asking the question). But Im not willing to break out the encyclopedia Britannica collection for every comment I make or question I ask in this friendly conversation to keep you from getting all issued up. Based on your comments I do not believe you think or have ever thought like me at all. You keep returning to some misguided assertion I am trying to find excuses for performance ENTIRELY MISSING that I am heading in the opposite direction. You continue to ignore that I started in competition. Again, I shot well in to B class in the late 90's in a very short time. Revisited competition around 2010 in IDPA for about a season and a half. Took 1st place in at least a couple matches. Shot a number of local 3 gun style competitions and a few rifle and pistol comps and placed 1st in many of them. I am NOT saying I am an accomplished shooter or even a really good shooter. The point is that I am not new to competition and have no need to make excuses for anything. The difficulties I had switching off IPSC autopilot habits when I went to IDPA is what made me aware of my concerns. This is what drove me in the direction of caring less about score and placement and more about being aware of what autopilot habits I ingrain.


Is every belief or opinion you have based on mis-remembered, made-up, boogeyman stories?

This is the point I was trying to make before. You are certainly entitled to ninja-out at whatever match you want to, but you, and others who behave like you, seem to always do so from a very misguided and unsubtantiate-able position because of the vast amount of BS that surrounds this issue, most of which I believe to have been started by people that simply didn't perform well at matches and in turn looked for excuses not to participate, or excuses as to why they didn't place well (I.e. Because:ninja). As I've said, I used to share your view, and your behavior. I just don't anymore.

This is why I press you, and anyone like you, to come up with documentable evidence of a shooting that ended badly because the good guy employed competition tactics or defaulted to "training scars". Not the Pretenders scenario (get it? Brass in Pocket?), because that wasn't a result of competition shooting and cannot be documented meaning it didn't happen.

The point, here, is that you're behavior is based on nothing. No documentable examples, no factual basis in reality, and perhaps at best the opinions of others in whom you place (perhaps misguided?) trust and belief. If those same people used the Pretenders story to help sway your opinion, and that story turned out to be wrong, then what else are they getting wrong?

I'm not trying to change your mind. I don't think you're ready for the red pill yet. But maybe this discussion will be seen by people that haven't made up their minds yet, and who are willing to become their own SME though the t"trust, but verify" method.

KevinB
10-09-2014, 02:00 PM
Shane -- best thing I have done on this forum is click the ignore setting for Rob_S.
You'll enjoy the forum so much more.

shane45
10-09-2014, 03:39 PM
Roger that brother, thanks!

NH Shooter
10-11-2014, 05:04 PM
An informative thread, all 17 pages of it.

Though I have nothing of value to add, I would like to mention that I can fully relate to utilizing competition (IDPA matches specifically) as a means of honing/maintaining one's gun handling/marksmanship skills under match stress. For this reason, I use my normal CC handgun, a 9mm PPS in a Comp-Tac IWB holster with my normal concealment garb. I strive for smooth and accurate, allowing the speed to follow accordingly. While I always evaluate the accuracy of my fire, my actual score is very much a secondary concern. As a take-away from this discussion, I will start making better use of cover and avoid the temptation to "game it."

Thanks again to all for the insight.

miller_man
10-11-2014, 09:29 PM
Think I've posted a handful of times on this forum, but read habitually on here - it's my favorite forum for "meat and potatoes" of pistol shooting.

Read all 17 pages as well. I have been to 2 training events (1 weekend - close range gun fighting - saurez intl, and a regional training day a few months later with the same instructor(1 day)). Both were great - I lust for more training and from other sources. But as a young father, newly married and early in my career -I don't have the free time or resources to dump a whole weekend (or more with travel) and several hundred dollars for training- all too often.

I have found it quite easy to escape one or two saturday or sundays a month to go shoot competitions. I used to only shoot IDPA, but now USPSA has it's grip on me. I have only ever shot my G19(s), (my EDC), even though I have a G34 sitting in the safe at home. I have improved MILES ahead from shooting competition. My skills were decent when I went to the above training - I routinely practice dry fire and draws several times a week. I thought I was almost "good enough".

Once I got into the competition scene, I found out what good shooters look like and can do (yes I know there are as/more capable shooters in the training world, but usually I won't see them without paying to sit in their class). More importantly, became more inspired to become better myself. I often hear from at least one of the guys, that I do pretty well for shooting "such a short barreled pistol" or "little carry gun". Shooting competition isn't training, and may have some negatives but it easily can improve one's shooting skills.

Last weekend I was shooting 8" steel plates out to 50 - 60 yds with my 19, with only a few misses here and there. I wouldn't be near that capable with my ability to attend/afford training.

Monthly competitions have put me in a better place in my shooting endeavor, which, to echo a common theme in this thread, I feel is overall probably far more likely to help in a real life situation than hurt..

BJJ
10-11-2014, 09:37 PM
Think I've posted a handful of times on this forum, but read habitually on here - it's my favorite forum for "meat and potatoes" of pistol shooting.

Read all 17 pages as well. I have been to 2 training events (1 weekend - close range gun fighting - saurez intl, and a regional training day a few months later with the same instructor(1 day)). Both were great - I lust for more training and from other sources. But as a young father, newly married and early in my career -I don't have the free time or resources to dump a whole weekend (or more with travel) and several hundred dollars for training- all too often.

I have found it quite easy to escape one or two saturday or sundays a month to go shoot competitions. I used to only shoot IDPA, but now USPSA has it's grip on me. I have only ever shot my G19(s), (my EDC), even though I have a G34 sitting in the safe at home. I have improved MILES ahead from shooting competition. My skills were decent when I went to the above training - I routinely practice dry fire and draws several times a week. I thought I was almost "good enough".

Once I got into the competition scene, I found out what good shooters look like and can do (yes I know there are as/more capable shooters in the training world, but usually I won't see them without paying to sit in their class). More importantly, became more inspired to become better myself. I often hear from at least one of the guys, that I do pretty well for shooting "such a short barreled pistol" or "little carry gun". Shooting competition isn't training, and may have some negatives but it easily can improve one's shooting skills.

Last weekend I was shooting 8" steel plates out to 50 - 60 yds with my 19, with only a few misses here and there. I wouldn't be near that capable with my ability to attend/afford training.

Monthly competitions have put me in a better place in my shooting endeavor, which, to echo a common theme in this thread, I feel is overall probably far more likely to help in a real life situation than hurt..

I think that you just described why a lot of people who want to work on their find competition so useful. It's relatively cheap and keeps you striving to improve.

NETim
10-12-2014, 12:40 AM
I think that you just described why a lot of people who want to work on their find competition so useful. It's relatively cheap and keeps you striving to improve.

Yep. Competition provides a mighty fine yardstick with which to measure progress. And I believe the stress inoculation bit (however minute it may be compared to a two way range) is a positive as well.

And it's fun.

Chuck Haggard
10-12-2014, 05:23 AM
One of the things I like about shooting matches is that you are forced to shoot someone else's problem.

This weekend was the Kansas state IDPA match. During the ten courses of fire I shot from the driver's seat of a pick-up truck, from prone in a simulated flipped over vehicle, around left and right cover, while moving forward/lateral/reverse, strong hand only, weak hand only, from ranges of 3 to 25 yards, drawing and reloading from concealment using my real CCW gun and rear, drew and shot while seated in an office chair, had to draw from a "busy hands" start getting rid of what I was holding before I could draw (holding a briefcase on one stage and a trash bag on another), shot one handed while moving due to holding a "baby" in a carrier, and due to the weather that day all of this was in the rain.

Just an observation.

Trooper224
10-12-2014, 04:29 PM
I've always been of the opinion that any shooting is good shooting. Something positive can be gleaned from it regardless of the process. I'm not a very competitive person by nature. Consequently, I find it a bit ridiculous when people get stressed over competition. I'm not devaluing competition or those who thrive on it, that's just my personal outlook. I've experienced real stress with a gun in my hand, shooting for points ain't it. :D I do compete in various disciplines: Bullseye, IDPA, with things like High Power Rifle Competition in my past history. I usually do pretty well, often very well, but I'm there mainly for the practice and time spent with like minded folks. I don't take the competition thing too seriously so I don't obsess over things like courses of fire, arcane rules, etc. It's your rice bowl man, I'm just here for the fortune cookie. I've never found myself falling victim to any particular training scars. Maybe that's because I try to develop a good base of overall shooting skills and don't get hardcore about any one particular discipline. I don't know. I can say without a doubt, when it's time for qualification the performance difference between those who compete and those who don't is quite dramatic.

rob_s
10-12-2014, 06:05 PM
It seems to me that the downside of training scars needs to be balanced against the downside of not training.

What a novel idea!

rob_s
10-12-2014, 06:07 PM
Because something is not written down on the internet does not mean it didn't happen. I can provide countless incidents where "training scars" resulted in undesireable results, which are plenty documented. When those documents get reviewed in 25 years, perhaps they will be made available.

And the only way people will become their own SME is by viewing it from all sides........

All I've ever asked for is ONE documented case of a competition shooter having a less-than desirable outcome in a shooting because of said competition.
Life the basis for performing anything less than the best of ones abilities within the context of the game is a series of events that never happened, it's misguided at best and an excuse at worst.

rob_s
10-12-2014, 06:11 PM
Let's try this from the top...

People say that they approach games "tactically" because they are "training" not "competing" and that their reason for doing so is that they are afraid that the techniques they employ in the match, were they to try to compete instead of train, would result in a. Less than desirable outcome in an actual defensive shooting. Yes?

Dagga Boy
10-12-2014, 07:30 PM
All I've ever asked for is ONE documented case of a competition shooter having a less-than desirable outcome in a shooting because of said competition.
Life the basis for performing anything less than the best of ones abilities within the context of the game is a series of events that never happened, it's misguided at best and an excuse at worst.

How many top level ACTION shooters shootings do we have to look at as a success indicator? Many of us know of very specific habits that cause issues when they rear their head in actual events that are not on the internet and we know to try to cull those from our training programs. Some of those things are used to enhance performance in sport shooting. Some things overlap well. If you are trying to be a competitor, do what you need to win. If you are a person who is wholly interested in use of firearms against real people in a setting with a high level of legal, moral and ethical accountability, then focus on the overlap stuff and eliminate the performance enhancers that build bad habits and be okay with not being a super star in that endeavor even if Rob thinks its an excuse. What is funny is that the guy talking about a series of events that never happened is the guy who has never had his competition skills tested in an actual shooting, yet dismisses a bunch of guys who have done both and have come to conclusions based experience rather than theory.

Josh Runkle
10-13-2014, 09:45 AM
All I've ever asked for is ONE documented case of a competition shooter having a less-than desirable outcome in a shooting because of said competition.


I can document one right now. YOU. Who says that the thing that you will need to save your life will result from or result in a shooting? Competition tells you that. Boom.

Chuck Haggard
10-13-2014, 10:10 AM
I can document one right now. YOU. Who says that the thing that you will need to save your life will result from or result in a shooting? Competition tells you that. Boom.

Josh, that's not a very helpful response to the question.

Josh Runkle
10-13-2014, 10:12 AM
Josh, that's not a very helpful response to the question.

My apologies. Please delete.

Chuck Haggard
10-13-2014, 10:24 AM
My apologies. Please delete.

No worries josh, just trying to keep things civil.

rob_s
10-13-2014, 10:37 AM
a bunch of guys who have done both and have come to conclusions based experience rather than theory.

Who are those guys? What competition techniques did they employ in their shootings wherein they came away with the conclusion that competition had somehow poisoned them?

NETim
10-13-2014, 10:45 AM
One of the things I like about shooting matches is that you are forced to shoot someone else's problem.

This weekend was the Kansas state IDPA match. During the ten courses of fire I shot from the driver's seat of a pick-up truck, from prone in a simulated flipped over vehicle, around left and right cover, while moving forward/lateral/reverse, strong hand only, weak hand only, from ranges of 3 to 25 yards, drawing and reloading from concealment using my real CCW gun and rear, drew and shot while seated in an office chair, had to draw from a "busy hands" start getting rid of what I was holding before I could draw (holding a briefcase on one stage and a trash bag on another), shot one handed while moving due to holding a "baby" in a carrier, and due to the weather that day all of this was in the rain.

Just an observation.

Heh. First of all, I'm glad Saturday was dry and sunny. You guys shot in miserable weather.

The "pickup truck" stage, for me anyway, will surely make the next IDPA Bloopers video. I thought I would be exceptionally clever and shoot T1 right outside the passenger side door WHO (I'm a lefty, sort of.) That went well. After the second shot, I noticed how loud it was in there. So while dwelling on that (instead of thinking), I transitioned to T2 w/o switching the gun to the strong hand and I began sending rounds downrange. I was still thinking about how loud it was when I went out of sequence and shot T3 out of order. When I went to slide lock, only then did I swap hands, reload and then finished off T4 with three good hits to make up for the crappy scattered shots previously made. The damage was done though. :p

The beeper went off, the gun went bang and the noise in the cab was unexpectedly loud which popped the wheels right off a good game plan. There's a lesson in there for yours truly somewhere.

You guys run a great shoot btw.

Josh Runkle
10-13-2014, 10:52 AM
All I've ever asked for is ONE documented case of a competition shooter having a less-than desirable outcome in a shooting because of said competition.


I believe that this will forever be something difficult to document.

If a competitor spends every waking hour being an amazing shooter, but later wakes up to find he/she has been hit in the back of the head and tied up, a lack of training regarding situational awareness might be recognized, and the person may go on to get training in that area. However, the person may never recognize that their overconfidence in their gun skills (which were awesome) led to a Dunning-Kruger effect where they did not actually receive training in situational awareness, but because they were an amazing competitor, thought they would be ok if a situation presented itself. In the end, the competitor may recognize their deficiency, and seek commensurate training, but may never recognize that the "training to compete" mindset produced inorganic, ill-represented perceptions of their own skillset prior to a violent encounter.

This could be equally represented by things like target identification, low-light fighting, ECQC, etc.

Additionally, I have a few students who compete every weekend, have a CCW permit, keep several guns loaded at home, keep a loaded firearm in their vehicle, but fail to actually carry their firearm. If we use the Tom Givens data, where simply "having a gun" seems to generate survival, and "not having a gun" seems to generate failure, then "not having a gun" is inconsistent with training people for surviving a violent encounter. Many (but not all) advanced firearms courses (particularly of the non-competition mindset) are set up where people have their EDC the way they carry it, and it stays loaded that way, every day. Competition, while good intentioned and looking out for the safety of others is generally set up where people have unloaded firearms, or do not have a gun. While some of my students who compete think this is "BS" and either complain but comply, or else secretly do not comply, in others, this builds a "sporting" attitude behind the firearm, that it is used for sport and not for defense. While they may be playing a game that is based on defense, they only pick up the "sporting" part, and that culture breeds an attitude where firearms, but not necessarily defense with a firearm take a priority. This lead to a disconnect as to having guns "nearby", but comfort when not having a gun on their person. And, if they end up dead because they don't have a gun, is it because this was the 0.01% of the time that they don't have a gun, or was it because situational biases that were bred from a competitive mindset led them to feel comfortable leaving a gun in the car but not having one on their person when they entered the gas station at 3am?

Who will document that as a less-than-desirable outcome because of competition? The dead person? The police? Or will they simply remain the opinions of Monday-morning quarterbacks like myself?

Lastly, I think it is most important to bring up people like Larry Vickers and Ken Hackathorn. Both were extremely influential in bringing an using competitive-style training to the "Elite Warrior". Both were active competitors. Both now have very bad things to say on this topic, and they don't mind sharing their opinion in classes. I would suggest that those people who have "been there and done that" and been in and out of competitive circles and helped influence both competition and training, such as Vickers, Hackathorn, etc, do have much to say on the issue, but I have only heard them do so privately, in classes, as their own liability might be an issue.

Others here, much more knowledgeable than myself, seem to posit the same information: competition is great, training and practice are great, and you need all three.

Again, I take no issue with competition itself, of course it is unrealistic, and needs to be so for the safety and enjoyment of all who participate. I take issue with people who only have exposure to competition, rarely or never take any other training outside of the competitive world, yet incorporate those unrealistic principles and mindsets into their own self defense, and do so in a manner in which they bring the high level of confidence in their shooting ability into realms where they have high confidence in areas that they have not practiced the way that they have practiced their shooting abilities.

Josh Runkle
10-13-2014, 10:52 AM
No worries josh, just trying to keep things civil.

Well, I shouldn't have been a dick. I'm sorry.

GJM
10-13-2014, 11:30 AM
Many of us know of very specific habits that cause issues when they rear their head in actual events that are not on the internet and we know to try to cull those from our training programs. Some of those things are used to enhance performance in sport shooting. Some things overlap well. If you are trying to be a competitor, do what you need to win. If you are a person who is wholly interested in use of firearms against real people in a setting with a high level of legal, moral and ethical accountability, then focus on the overlap stuff and eliminate the performance enhancers that build bad habits and be okay with not being a super star in that endeavor even if Rob thinks its an excuse.

Since any number of PF members shoot competition, aspire to be better in competition, AND are serious about having solid defensive handgun skills, you would do a great service by posting the kinds of performance enhancers competitors do, that are inconsistent with serious defensive use of a handgun. I think it would be a "sticky" level thread.

Chuck Haggard
10-13-2014, 11:30 AM
One observation I note between how I shoot matches and many other shooters, both USPSA and IDPA, is that I shoot my carry gear, and most of those folks do not.

I think we can agree that a guy shooting unlimited in USPSA gains pretty much zero training effect if he is carrying an LCP in his pocket away from the match. Not "it's gonna get you killed" as much as gaining nothing from the competition vs carry i real life.

A guy who shoots IDPA with a G34, drawn from kydex race rig, from under a starched vest, then botches the draw on his G19 drawn from under a T-shirt, is likely a data point that we would never be able to document.

John Hearne
10-13-2014, 11:41 AM
you would do a great service by posting the kinds of performance enhancers competitors do, that are inconsistent with serious defensive use of a handgun. I think it would be a "sticky" level thread.

One of my main concerns with the common forms of competition is that practicing extensively for it will calibrate your accuracy/timing you will tend to deliver in a fight. I find both the IPSC A zone and IDPA -0 to be a bit optimistic. I'd much rather see people practice on -0 that was 6" in diameter or an A zone that was 8" tall and 6" wide. A 6" -0 and a 1 second per point penalty would make IDPA a lot more relevant.

The other issue I have is that some folks believe that they are developing the "whole package" by shooting competition when in fact they are almost exclusively developing their technical shooting skills (which is very important). I think it was Uncle Scotty that called gunfighting a problem solving on the fly exercise. By knowing the problem in advance, competitors rarely get to develop their problem solving on the fly skills. The lack of surprise really mitigates a lot of the value of common competition.

rob_s
10-13-2014, 11:44 AM
Lastly, I think it is most important to bring up people like Larry Vickers and Ken Hackathorn. Both were extremely influential in bringing an using competitive-style training to the "Elite Warrior". Both were active competitors. Both now have very bad things to say on this topic, and they don't mind sharing their opinion in classes. I would suggest that those people who have "been there and done that" and been in and out of competitive circles and helped influence both competition and training, such as Vickers, Hackathorn, etc, do have much to say on the issue, but I have only heard them do so privately, in classes, as their own liability might be an issue.

For every Vickers and Hack there's a Mac and a Lamb. IMO that sort of thing washes itself out pretty quickly, and if I wanted to really be obnoxious about it I'd point out that those who you cite as being against competition have a longer memory for action than those I cite as being in favor.

Which is why I'm still looking for actual documentation of things ending badly due to competition techniques that were employed sub-consciously, or at least those who have been in in a gunfight and done something stupid that they could track back to being a "training scar" from competition. I'm not really terribly interested, personally, in a bunch of theoretical "well the GM was too cocky about his pistol skills and therefore turned his back on an obvious threat" kind of nonsense.

GJM
10-13-2014, 11:45 AM
One observation I note between how I shoot matches and many other shooters, both USPSA and IDPA, is that I shoot my carry gear, and most of those folks do not.

I think we can agree that a guy shooting unlimited in USPSA gains pretty much zero training effect if he is carrying an LCP in his pocket away from the match. Not "it's gonna get you killed" as much as gaining nothing from the competition vs carry i real life.

A guy who shoots IDPA with a G34, drawn from kydex race rig, from under a starched vest, then botches the draw on his G19 drawn from under a T-shirt, is likely a data point that we would never be able to document.

Chuck, I think that reasonable people can differ in this regard. Ron Avery, for example, believes that once you learn pure technical shooting skills that it translates over to all your gear. And, that it is easier to learn high level technical skills shooting a "Porsche as opposed to a mini-van." Another PF member and I know a top level area GM. He doesn't shoot a Sig, but grabbed my friend's 226 and holster, and cold, just smoked an IDPA stage with my friend's 226, despite having zero time with a Sig.

As to the LCP in the pocket, that is just a bad on them. Really great skills and a J frame is likely to be trumped by C class skills and a proper firearm in many scenarios.

Your scenario of the competitor with the Glock 34 from a starched vest, but botching his G19 draw from a t shirt versus the guy competing with his carry gun isn't the only choice. How about the Robert Vogel or Ernest Langdon level competitor who also applies those skills to his carry gear. Competition skills in themselves are not a guarantee to translate to carry proficiency. But, high level competition skills, and effort applied to carry stuff, is likely to lead to a high level result.

John Hearne
10-13-2014, 11:47 AM
I've taken classes from Hackathorn and Vickers and I don't recall them objecting to the idea of competition per se. Rather their concerns were much like mine - too much emphasis on speed and not enough on accuracy. Vickers has been fairly vocal on the 1 second penalty per point in IDPA. I've heard about Hackathorn observing that there should be par times for stages and the winner is the person who shoots the most points in the designated time frame.

NETim
10-13-2014, 11:48 AM
One of my main concerns with the common forms of competition is that practicing extensively for it will calibrate your accuracy/timing you will tend to deliver in a fight. I find both the IPSC A zone and IDPA -0 to be a bit optimistic. I'd much rather see people practice on -0 that was 6" in diameter or an A zone that was 8" tall and 6" wide. A 6" -0 and a 1 second per point penalty would make IDPA a lot more relevant.

The other issue I have is that some folks believe that they are developing the "whole package" by shooting competition when in fact they are almost exclusively developing their technical shooting skills (which is very important). I think it was Uncle Scotty that called gunfighting a problem solving on the fly exercise. By knowing the problem in advance, competitors rarely get to develop their problem solving on the fly skills. The lack of surprise really mitigates a lot of the value of common competition.


Yep! And an array of Airsoft guns downrange flinging pellets uprange. Nothing calls "cover" like a shot to the solar plexus.

rob_s
10-13-2014, 11:48 AM
One observation I note between how I shoot matches and many other shooters, both USPSA and IDPA, is that I shoot my carry gear, and most of those folks do not.

I think we can agree that a guy shooting unlimited in USPSA gains pretty much zero training effect if he is carrying an LCP in his pocket away from the match. Not "it's gonna get you killed" as much as gaining nothing from the competition vs carry i real life.
I think that's a pretty valid point. However, as OrigamiAK has shown, one can certainly be competitive with their everyday carry gear. When I first decided to stop the because:ninja nonsense at matches and trying to place as well as I could, I took some pride in the fact that I was drawing a G19 from an IWB holster under a t-shirt, the very same way I arrived at the range, and still beat an awful lot of people with vests and G34s (IDPA) or no cover garment at all and a DOH holster (USPSA).


A guy who shoots IDPA with a G34, drawn from kydex race rig, from under a starched vest, then botches the draw on his G19 drawn from under a T-shirt, is likely a data point that we would never be able to document.

Maybe. I would think that if it had happened to this point, we would know about it.

rob_s
10-13-2014, 11:52 AM
One of my main concerns with the common forms of competition is that practicing extensively for it will calibrate your accuracy/timing you will tend to deliver in a fight. I find both the IPSC A zone and IDPA -0 to be a bit optimistic. I'd much rather see people practice on -0 that was 6" in diameter or an A zone that was 8" tall and 6" wide. A 6" -0 and a 1 second per point penalty would make IDPA a lot more relevant.


Slightly off-track, but this is something else I agree with. I also prefer to see targets either neutralized or not, and hefty penalties for not, which is how I scored the carbine matches I started.

Ideally I'd like to see targets like this, with the below being examples of hits required to neutralize the target. I believe this setup would be a good balance of speed:accuracy. One brain box hit, or two Bs, or three Cs would neutralize the target.

https://scontent-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/t31.0-8/1415240_607954472594992_839596841_o.jpg

GJM
10-13-2014, 11:53 AM
One of my main concerns with the common forms of competition is that practicing extensively for it will calibrate your accuracy/timing you will tend to deliver in a fight. I find both the IPSC A zone and IDPA -0 to be a bit optimistic. I'd much rather see people practice on -0 that was 6" in diameter or an A zone that was 8" tall and 6" wide.

1) I must be going to the wrong matches because I see a lot of partial targets, frequently surrounded by white targets, often shot from weird positions. Perhaps low level competitors have only one speed, but better shooters are constantly calibrating speed/accuracy for the available target.

2) I think you have an unrealistic perception of the kind of accuracy training high level shooters do. When training with Manny Bragg, he is shooting a lot of two inch dots.

Josh Runkle
10-13-2014, 11:56 AM
I've taken classes from Hackathorn and Vickers and I don't recall them objecting to the idea of competition per se. Rather their concerns were much like mine - too much emphasis on speed and not enough on accuracy. Vickers has been fairly vocal on the 1 second penalty per point in IDPA. I've heard about Hackathorn observing that there should be par times for stages and the winner is the person who shoots the most points in the designated time frame.

Me too. I'm not saying that they object to competition, just that they view it as unrealistic and "teaching" the wrong things.

orionz06
10-13-2014, 12:01 PM
I think much of that is instructors projecting what some students do on to all students. I'm pretty sure everyone in this thread doesn't think a 5 stage vest match is training but it seems to be implied that folks think others think it is.

I am not the local guy who shoots idpa because they think it is real. I doubt anyone in this thread is.

Josh Runkle
10-13-2014, 12:03 PM
I am not the local guy who shoots idpa because they think it is real. I doubt anyone in this thread is.

Agreed, but this thread is about all competition, including those people.

John Hearne
10-13-2014, 12:07 PM
Another PF member and I know a top level area GM. He doesn't shoot a Sig, but grabbed my friend's 226 and holster, and cold, just smoked an IDPA stage with my friend's 226, despite having zero time with a Sig.

I think the key here is "GM." On the bell curve of shooters, how many standard deviation is he out? GM's are the top 5% of USPSA shooters. What percent of shooters shoot USPSA? That is a pretty elite data point from which to generalize from.

Paul Howe distinguished between too much caliber and not enough gun for acceptable shooting performance. For instance it might be possible for someone to shoot a Glock 22 acceptably but be unable to shoot a Glock 27 acceptably but be able to shoot a Glock 26 acceptably. The problem is that the shooter has outrun the grip size and sight radius to shoot the pistol acceptably. This is very personal and sufficient skill will mitigate the size/caliber issues.

joshs
10-13-2014, 12:09 PM
I think you have an unrealistic perception of the kind of accuracy training high level shooters do. When training with Manny Bragg, he is shooting a lot of two inch dots.

But, for the average shooter in USPSA (mid-C to mid-B), there is definitely an incentive to shoot faster and less accurately than most would consider "good" (say 90%+ of the available points). The time tradeoff it takes shooters at that skill level to shoot better points usually isn't worth it in USPSA/IPSC scoring. This is especially true when shooting Major. Obviously, at higher levels, it becomes much more important to shoot nearly all of the available points.

As far as targets go, for pretty obvious reasons, I'm a fan of this one (http://pistol-training.com/archives/8727).

Chuck Haggard
10-13-2014, 12:18 PM
Chuck, I think that reasonable people can differ in this regard. Ron Avery, for example, believes that once you learn pure technical shooting skills that it translates over to all your gear. And, that it is easier to learn high level technical skills shooting a "Porsche as opposed to a mini-van." Another PF member and I know a top level area GM. He doesn't shoot a Sig, but grabbed my friend's 226 and holster, and cold, just smoked an IDPA stage with my friend's 226, despite having zero time with a Sig.

As to the LCP in the pocket, that is just a bad on them. Really great skills and a J frame is likely to be trumped by C class skills and a proper firearm in many scenarios.

Your scenario of the competitor with the Glock 34 from a starched vest, but botching his G19 draw from a t shirt versus the guy competing with his carry gun isn't the only choice. How about the Robert Vogel or Ernest Langdon level competitor who also applies those skills to his carry gear. Competition skills in themselves are not a guarantee to translate to carry proficiency. But, high level competition skills, and effort applied to carry stuff, is likely to lead to a high level result.

I can't disagree with, or I agree with, everything you wrote.

cclaxton
10-13-2014, 12:20 PM
But, for the average shooter in USPSA (mid-C to mid-B), there is definitely an incentive to shoot faster and less accurately than most would consider "good" (say 90%+ of the available points). The time tradeoff it takes shooters at that skill level to shoot better points usually isn't worth it in USPSA/IPSC scoring. This is especially true when shooting Major. Obviously, at higher levels, it becomes much more important to shoot nearly all of the available points.

As far as targets go, for pretty obvious reasons, I'm a fan of this one (http://pistol-training.com/archives/8727).

I like the Target. What do you think of the USCA target?
Cody

GJM
10-13-2014, 12:21 PM
But, for the average shooter in USPSA (mid-C to mid-B), there is definitely an incentive to shoot faster and less accurately than most would consider "good" (say 90%+ of the available points). The time tradeoff it takes shooters at that skill level to shoot better points usually isn't worth it in USPSA/IPSC scoring. This is especially true when shooting Major. Obviously, at higher levels, it becomes much more important to shoot nearly all of the available points.

As far as targets go, for pretty obvious reasons, I'm a fan of this one (http://pistol-training.com/archives/8727).

If so, it is just a training deficiency. Easy fix -- shoot one inch squares at 7 yards, 3x5s at 25 yards, and 50 yard groups. No different than gaming with a race rig and never practicing with your carry gear.

Side note on carry gear. I carry appendix about 70 percent of the time, and OWB the balance. I have made a personal decision to minimize life fire training appendix as a personal risk management strategy. I practice appendix and do most live fire OWB. Just takes a few more reps. And, I believe my OWB draw practice also translates to a faster AIWB draw.

rob_s
10-13-2014, 12:22 PM
I like the Target. What do you think of the USCA target?
Cody

IMO too forgiving in the vertical, especially for a carbine target. That's why I like the example I posted, or the one Josh posted.

Josh, are those actually available anywhere? I'd like to get some to possibly play with in our matches.

Dagga Boy
10-13-2014, 12:28 PM
I'll make this super easy and then bow out.......because in the end it is like talking to the wall. Rule #2 & #3 violations are rampant. I don't want to be around habitual rule #2 and rule #3 violators, especially when they are distracted by trying to solve a real world, unplanned horrific crisis when folks are running those violations from their sub-conscious. Again, when people are spending a majority of their time with "don't let anyone figure out if that was a miss or ND, and contort yourself in anyway possible to not violate the 180" safety rules, and then think they will resort to something they have simply payed lip service to for the rest of their lives when the flag goes up is pure fantasy in my mind. Rob in his experience thinks otherwise. Do what you want and keep your fingers crossed that you picked right.

Sit at a match and watch how many fingers go on triggers before the muzzle is in any kind of orientation on the target to guarantee a hit on that target. I did it myself the first draw on the first stage of a match a few weeks ago. I was highly disappointed in myself for falling into the "match gun handling". I fixed it for the remainder of the match consciously. Based on what I saw I was the only one who cared. I also saw a ton of fingers not in index during the unload and show clear phase without a single correction. While I don't think it is the R/O's job or worth the confrontation over the "I did not", the fact is that a bunch of people are building a habit of getting a finger in a trigger guard or very close while simply operating and locking a slide to the rear. I already know that there will be ten "I've never ever seen that, must be an anomaly" posts, so I'll bow out..........look at all the pictures in my file with some of the top guys in the game doing exactly what I am talking about and again, hope for the best.

Chuck Haggard
10-13-2014, 12:40 PM
I think that's a pretty valid point. However, as OrigamiAK has shown, one can certainly be competitive with their everyday carry gear. When I first decided to stop the because:ninja nonsense at matches and trying to place as well as I could, I took some pride in the fact that I was drawing a G19 from an IWB holster under a t-shirt, the very same way I arrived at the range, and still beat an awful lot of people with vests and G34s (IDPA) or no cover garment at all and a DOH holster (USPSA).

I'm not the world's greatest shooter, and being almost 50, having trouble seeing my sights, and having arthritis and carpal tunnel problems, doesn't help. I take a disadvantage by shooting a G19 from under a hoody or T-shirt because that's what I carry, yet last weekend I shot 2nd expert in SSP at a match with well over 100 people attending, and I shot ninth overall in all classes with all guns.
The "I'm tactical" ain't always a crutch for people who just can't fucking shoot, but on the flip side with ten stages running, with I went gamer holster, gun and vest and cut 2-3 seconds per stage I would have taken overall for the whole match. Gear does make a difference when it comes to competition, which is why gear races happen.




Maybe. I would think that if it had happened to this point, we would know about it.


How would we know this if dude didn't live through the event? Even if he did then dude would have to broadcast it out there in a manner similar to Paul Gardner.

It certainly wouldn't show up in a police report, or the news. Civilian shootings don't get nearly the in depth analysis as OISs unless you screw it up and end up on the news ala Zimmerman.

Chuck Haggard
10-13-2014, 12:45 PM
Ooo Ooo [Horseshack voice/]

DB just made me think of something I see at matches that makes me nuts, "unload and show clear".

I unload, show clear, then aim in at a safe area of the berm and do a quality dry fire, then holster in reverse of my draw stroke. That ain't even close to what almost 100% of the IDPA folks I see do when they are done shooting. A shitty rep in a dry fire is a shitty rep. We shouldn't be doing that shitty work, even once.

rob_s
10-13-2014, 12:47 PM
I know you said you're done, but...

I'm sorry you think this is about me. Kind of entertaining how many of the respondents seem to think so, actually. I'm really just asking questions. and considering for how many years I bought into that "gamer shit will get you killed on the streets" I really would like to have my mind changed back.

What I was hoping for, was the opposite of what you posted. Rather than watch unknown whoevers with unknowable backgrounds and motivations at matches and extrapolating "that would be real bad IF they did that in a gunfight" I was hoping more fore "I subconsciously did xyz gamer shit in a gunfight and it almost/did/could-have had dire consequences".

it may seem a minute difference, but it's actually quite the huge distinction.

When I leave my office for lunch, I generally walk across the street at a leisurely pace. Someone *could* come and watch me do that and think "if he walks that slow when a car is coming, he's going to get hit". That is not the same thing as "no wonder that guy got hit by a car, he walked across the street as if no car were coming".

rob_s
10-13-2014, 12:49 PM
It certainly wouldn't show up in a police report, or the news. Civilian shootings don't get nearly the in depth analysis as OISs unless you screw it up and end up on the news ala Zimmerman.

This is kind of the classic boogyeman story logic. It *might* have happened, therefore it *has* happened and therefore we *must* train for it.

I don't buy it.

rob_s
10-13-2014, 12:52 PM
DB just made me think of something I see at matches that makes me nuts, "unload and show clear".

I unload, show clear, then aim in at a safe area of the berm and do a quality dry fire, then holster in reverse of my draw stroke. That ain't even close to what almost 100% of the IDPA folks I see do when they are done shooting. A shitty rep in a dry fire is a shitty rep. We shouldn't be doing that shitty work, even once.

So you're pretty much making my point. Don't watch what other people do at matches, do what you do. If people want to ninja-crawl under the barricades in their pajamas because:real-world it's no sweat off my balls. I am certainly, however, interested in the "why" of what they are doing.

What you point out is something that is so easily remedied by an individual shooter as to be a non-issue. In fact, just last week I ran our carbine drills group through a transitions block and reminded all of them to always take advantage of the "load" sequence to get a good rep of drawing and inserting the mag, and the "unload" sequence to get a dryfire rep. some took me up on the suggestion, others did not. No biggie, but about thalf those that were rushing previously started doing as I suggested with only one brief mention of it. If anyone would listen, and listen to ME of all people, it must be pretty easy to correct.

Chuck Haggard
10-13-2014, 12:57 PM
This is kind of the classic boogyeman story logic. It *might* have happened, therefore it *has* happened and therefore we *must* train for it.

I don't buy it.

My point is that you ask for Google internets proof/double blind studies for something that due to reality would be nearly impossible to provide if it existed at all AND people were willing to give it.

Chuck Haggard
10-13-2014, 12:59 PM
So you're pretty much making my point. Don't watch what other people do at matches, do what you do. If people want to ninja-crawl under the barricades in their pajamas because:real-world it's no sweat off my balls. I am certainly, however, interested in the "why" of what they are doing.

What you point out is something that is so easily remedied by an individual shooter as to be a non-issue. In fact, just last week I ran our carbine drills group through a transitions block and reminded all of them to always take advantage of the "load" sequence to get a good rep of drawing and inserting the mag, and the "unload" sequence to get a dryfire rep. some took me up on the suggestion, others did not. No biggie, but about thalf those that were rushing previously started doing as I suggested with only one brief mention of it. If anyone would listen, and listen to ME of all people, it must be pretty easy to correct.

My point earlier in this thread was that training scars are very real, competition bases or whatever, a training scar is a training scar. Venue is immaterial.

We appear to share the "get a good rep in" philosophy on loading, unloading, etc.

John Hearne
10-13-2014, 01:04 PM
1) I must be going to the wrong matches because I see a lot of partial targets, frequently surrounded by white targets, often shot from weird positions. Perhaps low level competitors have only one speed, but better shooters are constantly calibrating speed/accuracy for the available target.
2) I think you have an unrealistic perception of the kind of accuracy training high level shooters do. When training with Manny Bragg, he is shooting a lot of two inch dots.

I am not saying that matches do not require difficult shots. I am assuming that folks are spending more rounds practicing than shooting matches. Every one of those practice repetitions teaches how much sights and how much trigger you need to hit.

In a nutshell, you are uploading data to the autopilot. If the the autopilot appears in your fight (which we hope it will) then it will deliver whatever it has been programmed to do. If all goes well, you will not be thinking about the technical aspects of shooting in a fight - you will be trusting the autopilot to do this. My concern is with the default primary zone that is being used to program the autopilot in thousands or tens of thousands of repetitions.

Under stress, delivering fine motor skills is the real challenge. IT IS NOT IMPOSSIBLE. If and how well the fine motor skills are delivered will be determined by the last time the skills were performed and how well practiced those skills are. If I am concerned about a combative context, I want to deliberately and very consciously overtrain my trigger control. Smaller primary hit zones and a lot of repetitions are an excellent way to accomplish this.

John Hearne
10-13-2014, 01:07 PM
We appear to share the "get a good rep in" philosophy on loading, unloading, etc.

I got to hear Mike Panone lecture a few years back. One line really stuck with me - "Everything is practice for something."

(And Mike shoots competition - USPSA no less)

cclaxton
10-13-2014, 01:08 PM
Ooo Ooo [Horseshack voice/]

DB just made me think of something I see at matches that makes me nuts, "unload and show clear".

I unload, show clear, then aim in at a safe area of the berm and do a quality dry fire, then holster in reverse of my draw stroke. That ain't even close to what almost 100% of the IDPA folks I see do when they are done shooting. A shitty rep in a dry fire is a shitty rep. We shouldn't be doing that shitty work, even once.
Chuck,
That is a really good point. It didn't occur to me until you wrote it. I will talk about this during my next safety briefing.

Another thing that really annoys me is how people quickly shove their pistol into their holster, even loaded. Every Safety Briefing I remind them they are not on the clock when they holster, and to take their time and holster very slowly because of something getting caught in the trigger guard...clothing, drawstrings, etc. Then, even after I tell them...I see them do it anyway!....(Sigh...)

Good tip.

Cody

Erik
10-13-2014, 01:10 PM
I was hoping more fore "I subconsciously did xyz gamer shit in a gunfight and it almost/did/could-have had dire consequences".



I'd be very interested in this as well, either from personal experience or personal knowledge of others' experience(s).

Alpha Sierra
10-13-2014, 01:13 PM
Another thing that really annoys me is how people quickly shove their pistol into their holster, even loaded. Every Safety Briefing I remind them they are not on the clock when they holster, and to take their time and holster very slowly because of something getting caught in the trigger guard...clothing, drawstrings, etc. Then, even after I tell them...I see them do it anyway!....(Sigh...)

The ones who do that are often the same ones with a t shirt half tucked in and half inside their holster.

I used to say something but the derp is so effing strong and have actually got talkback from some that now I just turn away and hope I don't hear "boom" followed by "I just f-ing shot myself".

Josh Runkle
10-13-2014, 01:15 PM
Another thing that really annoys me is how people quickly shove their pistol into their holster, even loaded. Every Safety Briefing I remind them they are not on the clock when they holster, and to take their time and holster very slowly because of something getting caught in the trigger guard...clothing, drawstrings, etc. Then, even after I tell them...I see them do it anyway!....(Sigh...)



Oh, man. Seriously. I take it as a serious safety issue and warn people that continued, no look, speed reholstering is dangerous, and that while they may only shoot themselves, my insurance costs will go up ;)

So, I let them know that if it continues, they're gone.

What's even worse is that the large majority of famous instructors who are all over the interwebz are very guilty of this. I actually have had instructors in classes I was taking point out that appendix carry was a dangerous activity, yet I look and take 5-10 seconds to reholster and they no-look speed reholster.

The list of solid shooters who have shot themselves reholstering is not as small as many think.

joshs
10-13-2014, 01:16 PM
IMO too forgiving in the vertical, especially for a carbine target. That's why I like the example I posted, or the one Josh posted.

Josh, are those actually available anywhere? I'd like to get some to possibly play with in our matches.

Yes, they're available here: http://www.nationaltarget.com/product_info.php/ndm-p-179


I'll make this super easy and then bow out.......because in the end it is like talking to the wall. Rule #2 & #3 violations are rampant. I don't want to be around habitual rule #2 and rule #3 violators, especially when they are distracted by trying to solve a real world, unplanned horrific crisis when folks are running those violations from their sub-conscious.

Transitioning across non-threats with fingers on triggers is something that I can definitely see creating a bad habit, but I've seen this before in training classes, too, so I wouldn't think that it is something that is limited to competition. In your classes, do you teach muzzle aversion and finger-off when a non-threat is between two threats?


I also saw a ton of fingers not in index during the unload and show clear phase without a single correction. While I don't think it is the R/O's job or worth the confrontation over the "I did not", the fact is that a bunch of people are building a habit of getting a finger in a trigger guard or very close while simply operating and locking a slide to the rear.

This is somewhat of a problem for R.O.s in USPSA and IDPA. The rules don't require the trigger finger to be in register, only that it is not in the trigger guard when doing a non-shooting task. It gets pretty difficult to determine if a finger is actually in the trigger guard from the "normal" R.O. position (behind and to the side of the shooter). If I'm not sure, I don't feel that I can DQ the shooter, but I will usually talk to them afterwards to let them know that their finger was close to being in the trigger guard when they weren't shooting.

Dagga Boy
10-13-2014, 01:24 PM
Ooo Ooo [Horseshack voice/]

DB just made me think of something I see at matches that makes me nuts, "unload and show clear".

I unload, show clear, then aim in at a safe area of the berm and do a quality dry fire, then holster in reverse of my draw stroke. That ain't even close to what almost 100% of the IDPA folks I see do when they are done shooting. A shitty rep in a dry fire is a shitty rep. We shouldn't be doing that shitty work, even once.

Okay....for Chuck, one more;). I created a horrendous issue the last time I shot IDPA. Apparently, doing a correct Tac reload, re-holstering, then drawing and doing a correct administrative unload is a massive issue where R/O's get hysterical. You know, because its boogeyman that people either shoot themselves or ND's on draws, and shoot themselves on the re-holster........another boogeyman that has never happened and is internet myth.

shane45
10-13-2014, 01:28 PM
For every Vickers and Hack there's a Mac and a Lamb. IMO that sort of thing washes itself out pretty quickly, and if I wanted to really be obnoxious about it I'd point out that those who you cite as being against competition have a longer memory for action than those I cite as being in favor.

Which is why I'm still looking for actual documentation of things ending badly due to competition techniques that were employed sub-consciously, or at least those who have been in in a gunfight and done something stupid that they could track back to being a "training scar" from competition. I'm not really terribly interested, personally, in a bunch of theoretical "well the GM was too cocky about his pistol skills and therefore turned his back on an obvious threat" kind of nonsense.

I believe it is Paul Howe that speaks of experiencing an issue with double taps. Always training to do double taps led to him double tapping a BG within 7 yards and bad guy holding an AK. He paused after the double tap even though the BG was not neutralized and indicates this is what he had an issue with in reflection, leading to a change in his training regimen. Although it didn't end badly, clearly his change in regimen indicates he accepts it could have.

GJM
10-13-2014, 01:49 PM
1) In general, I think shooting games increase technical shooting skills, in the same way having the NFL increases football skills. Many to most people would not be motivated to put in the effort to increase skills without the competition part.

2) Leaving aside that pistol gamers muzzle white targets as opposed to real people, in terms of the frequency of rule 2 violations, aren't USPSA competitors amateurs in that regard compared to law enforcement?

cclaxton
10-13-2014, 02:17 PM
I'll make this super easy and then bow out.......because in the end it is like talking to the wall. Rule #2 & #3 violations are rampant. I don't want to be around habitual rule #2 and rule #3 violators, especially when they are distracted by trying to solve a real world, unplanned horrific crisis when folks are running those violations from their sub-conscious. Again, when people are spending a majority of their time with "don't let anyone figure out if that was a miss or ND, and contort yourself in anyway possible to not violate the 180" safety rules, and then think they will resort to something they have simply payed lip service to for the rest of their lives when the flag goes up is pure fantasy in my mind. Rob in his experience thinks otherwise. Do what you want and keep your fingers crossed that you picked right.

Sit at a match and watch how many fingers go on triggers before the muzzle is in any kind of orientation on the target to guarantee a hit on that target. I did it myself the first draw on the first stage of a match a few weeks ago. I was highly disappointed in myself for falling into the "match gun handling". I fixed it for the remainder of the match consciously. Based on what I saw I was the only one who cared. I also saw a ton of fingers not in index during the unload and show clear phase without a single correction. While I don't think it is the R/O's job or worth the confrontation over the "I did not", the fact is that a bunch of people are building a habit of getting a finger in a trigger guard or very close while simply operating and locking a slide to the rear. I already know that there will be ten "I've never ever seen that, must be an anomaly" posts, so I'll bow out..........look at all the pictures in my file with some of the top guys in the game doing exactly what I am talking about and again, hope for the best.
I heard someone give good advice: "Shooters DQ themselves, you are just giving them the notice." Had to DQ two guys this weekend. What part of "Turn, THEN draw..." did he not understand?

I call FINGER whenever I see it...and will DQ if a round is in the chamber on the second warning. I also notice the issue during malfunction clearing. Sometimes I just say, STOP...hand me the gun....

Great post.
Thanks,
Cody

nwhpfan
10-13-2014, 02:29 PM
Somebody earlier posted Ron Avery's opinion is essentially being a good shooter is....being a good shooter and it carries over....

I agree.

I have shot way more brown cardbaord targets than anything else. I'm certain the hardest shot I ever made to this point was in a competition.

Knowing what I can do (or can't) with just a little pride on the line is a safe way to evaluate myself. I would rather find out there...

It is my observation that many (not all) who dismiss competition are not very good shooters and don't want to be exposed. That kept me away for many years, and my excuses were similar to what I've seen here. If they belive them or not, IDK, for me, it was mostly just an excuse. My potential to being invovled in a real incident is as likely today (since becomming a competitor) as it was before... I know I'm better prepared, and I believe the results would suggest that too.

I compete to win....and I know it carries over.

As for different gear, etc... I never shot an AK before I had too (in a match) and it had a trigger, sights, like any other firearm so I don't put much into that.

shane45
10-13-2014, 02:40 PM
nwhpfan, maybe I missed it, did anyone in this thread dismiss competition? Or is the discussion about what also may carry over from competition, or training for that matter? Or are you just speaking in general terms outside of this discussion?

Mr_White
10-13-2014, 02:55 PM
Wow, in class all weekend and I miss a lot of discussion...

Some random thoughts in no particular order, including some aspects of competition that I don't love:

nyeti, I appreciate you throwing out specifics (rule 2 and 3 violations) like you did, and I'd be interested in hearing about more that bother you if you feel like enumerating them.

Bad safety habits are bad safety habits wherever they come from. I've seen all kinds of people, to include LEOs, with pretty terrible muzzle awareness and finger discipline, and conscious disregard for the same because the gun is 'unloaded'.

I think you would be happy with what we did in our advanced pistol class over the weekend. We muzzle averted with finger straight in a short but dynamic exercise that required getting the pistol from one threat to another with a no-shoot in between, in addition to pressure to shoot and gunhandle precisely and quickly.

For me, I am with you and Chuck in not liking the allowed lazy and low finger position. I'd really rather that the rules required an actual register position, rather than what I think is a physiologically insufficient and difficult-to-judge 'finger outside the trigger guard.'

I don't like unload and show clear either. The custom has been explained to me and I know it's not about to change. I do a hard break and quality presentation and press and just live with it, because I think the benefits of competition vastly outweigh the detriments. But I come from the hot range and generally revile cold range philosophy.

All that said, I think there is tremendous value in competitive shooting, for all the reasons others have specified already. My subjective belief is that I'm an enormously better shooter for participating in competition.

Maybe my perspective is a little warped, because I started with years of tactical/defensive/awareness/etc. training before I ever started competing. I guess I can see some of the training scar problems afflicting someone more easily if they only ever shot competition and had no exposure to quality defensive training, though I'm not sure they are likely to actually suffer in real life for whatever those bad habits might be. Maybe, maybe not. I'm really not very concerned that I am going to develop them, but I did start with a strong (relatively speaking, of course) base of defensive training and now I get to shoot one match a month if I'm lucky, and spend roughly five or six full days a month doing defensive training stuff. I do near-daily technical skills practice too, which benefits both contexts of pistol use.

Accuracy in competition – I get that maybe there is a bit of incentive to shoot marginal points fast in some limited circumstances in USPSA, but even when I started in B class, it didn't work that way for me. Bad points = bad placement in my short experience. That may also be because I am shooting Minor. It's been recommended to me many, many times that I should shoot Major. I've resisted largely because I really like having to shoots As all day long to have a shot at winning or placing well. If I do that, I can. Going to Major might get me a few more points from the Cs I do still shoot, but I really don't want any incentive to start shooting A/C on every target. That would be a regression in skill application.

I hear there is plenty of regional and club variation in the way stages are designed, but I find USPSA quite accuracy intensive, between hardcover, no-shoots, swinging and turning targets, long distance shots, tough leans around walls or shooting through ports, and minor scoring. If I could only shoot one drill ever to prepare for competition, it would probably be Frank Garcia's Dot Drill.

This is not directed at anyone in particular – I feel like I have seen a bit of a strawman sentiment recurring in these types of discussions generally – comparisons between a hypothetical competent tactical shooter vs. a hypothetical sucky competitor who shoots C/D/miss all over the landscape, has poor muzzle and finger discipline, and doesn't carry a gun away from the match. I know that guy exists, but he isn't everyone. There are a bunch of tactical sheepdogs with Hi-Points in nylon holsters out there too, and they are a much more apt comparison I think. You can find them at Walmart. ;)

BTW, somebody mentioned speed holstering – don't be so sure they will only shoot themselves – a mentor of mine took a bullet in the foot (teaching at the police academy) when someone ND'd during a draw, at a slightly rearward angle. The (ostensibly frangible) bullet hit the ground, ricocheted uprange and into his foot.

Sorry for the wall of text, I am all pent up after two days of class and no internets.

nwhpfan
10-13-2014, 03:14 PM
nwhpfan, maybe I missed it, did anyone in this thread dismiss competition? Or is the discussion about what also may carry over from competition, or training for that matter? Or are you just speaking in general terms outside of this discussion?

Feel free to PM with what you think this thread is about and where I missed it.

I thought my comments were directly related to the content; and to the article written by Avery.

Glenn E. Meyer
10-13-2014, 03:24 PM
BTW, somebody mentioned speed holstering – don't be so sure they will only shoot themselves – a mentor of mine took a bullet in the foot (teaching at the police academy) when someone ND'd during a draw, at a slightly rearward angle. The (ostensibly frangible) bullet hit the ground, ricocheted uprange and into his foot.

I was scoring keeping at a match and the shooter loaded a 1911, supposedly put on the safety, holstered and fired a round a foot away from my foot and inches from the SO. That was a jump but even more frightening was that he started to raise and wave the gun saying - What did I do? Huh? The SO grabbed his hand to immobilize him.

Dagga Boy
10-13-2014, 04:08 PM
"BTW, somebody mentioned speed holstering – don't be so sure they will only shoot themselves – a mentor of mine took a bullet in the foot (teaching at the police academy) when someone ND'd during a draw, at a slightly rearward angle. The (ostensibly frangible) bullet hit the ground, ricocheted uprange and into his foot."

This is my point........many of us have seen lots of the results of what poor gun handling habits can result in. That ND happened due to early finger on the trigger on the draw. Happens a lot. Yet.........based on another thread I read on this very board, and all the pictures I have of top competitors as well as top tactical instructors who cross over doing the exact same thing because you cannot be competitive without doing it. So is it only okay for some competitors? Should we just stop caring about it? That is sort of where I am at. Its simple, you can't do it in our program. Do whatever the net tells you elsewhere seems to be a better theme.

OAK, I find it interesting about how you treated no-shoots at your recent training. It is how we actually develop good solutions. We will be doing it extensively next weekend in our class as well. Of course, I am still in the "burn the witch" category with most for even bringing it up. A funny comment was made about the subject last weekend when discussing with some trainers. "You are right, but nobody is going to want to change or even admit it is an issue because then they will have to change something everybody does". There you have it.

ST911
10-13-2014, 04:29 PM
Yes, they're available here: http://www.nationaltarget.com/product_info.php/ndm-p-179

I don't see a paper option for that target at the website. Is one available anywhere?

cclaxton
10-13-2014, 04:30 PM
Its simple, you can't do it in our program.
From a liability POV, shouldn't we always enforce finger discipline, no matter who it is? Seems to be a slippery slope if we don't.
Lots of high profile competitors DQ'd themselves in the last FNH. Safety is paramount.
Cody

joshs
10-13-2014, 04:39 PM
I don't see a paper option for that target at the website. Is one available anywhere?

No, for paper I use ToddG's Q-PT target: http://www.nationaltarget.com/product_info.php/-p-140

Jared
10-13-2014, 04:46 PM
I feel like I have seen a bit of a strawman sentiment recurring in these types of discussions generally – comparisons between a hypothetical competent tactical shooter vs. a hypothetical sucky competitor who shoots C/D/miss all over the landscape, has poor muzzle and finger discipline, and doesn't carry a gun away from the match. I know that guy exists, but he isn't everyone. There are a bunch of tactical sheepdogs with Hi-Points in nylon holsters out there too, and they are a much more apt comparison I think. You can find them at Walmart. ;)



That part right there, the strawman, that's what I finally understood about the "bad habits of competition" from this thread. When my head thinks competitive shooter, it goes to a very good group of shooters, national champions. So I never understood why there was all this stuff about how comp shooters miss all the time, hose down the berm just to be fast, etc. Now I get it. When folks like that talk about comp shooters, they are referencing the lower level guys they see at local matches, rather than the extremely skilled Competitors that come to mind for me.

The problem is that there are tons of gunowners that have awful muzzle discipline and trigger finger discipline, so blaming this on "competition" seems to me a bit misplaced.

As for the whole points vs speed trade off, I also completely agree with you. When my points suck, my match placement sucks, and this is in Production, where everybody is scored Minor. When my points are good, I place good.

Mr_White
10-13-2014, 05:00 PM
"BTW, somebody mentioned speed holstering – don't be so sure they will only shoot themselves – a mentor of mine took a bullet in the foot (teaching at the police academy) when someone ND'd during a draw, at a slightly rearward angle. The (ostensibly frangible) bullet hit the ground, ricocheted uprange and into his foot."

This is my point........many of us have seen lots of the results of what poor gun handling habits can result in. That ND happened due to early finger on the trigger on the draw. Happens a lot. Yet.........based on another thread I read on this very board, and all the pictures I have of top competitors as well as top tactical instructors who cross over doing the exact same thing because you cannot be competitive without doing it. So is it only okay for some competitors? Should we just stop caring about it? That is sort of where I am at. Its simple, you can't do it in our program. Do whatever the net tells you elsewhere seems to be a better theme.

OAK, I find it interesting about how you treated no-shoots at your recent training. It is how we actually develop good solutions. We will be doing it extensively next weekend in our class as well. Of course, I am still in the "burn the witch" category with most for even bringing it up. A funny comment was made about the subject last weekend when discussing with some trainers. "You are right, but nobody is going to want to change or even admit it is an issue because then they will have to change something everybody does". There you have it.

I kind of transplanted that draw-ND-ricochet-foot story onto a comment on speed holstering since the common element is muzzle down with a slightly rearward angle. The draw/ND guy that shot my instructor was one of those radical hunchers/duckers/crouchers on the draw and that's where he got the slight rearward angle from, so I am told

As far as speed holstering, I put a stop to that before they even draw the gun one time. That is my foot back there. It doesn't get to this point, but I would kick someone right out of class if they wouldn't stop speed holstering. It is that dangerous.

On the point of finger on trigger early, I do think there are two related, but different discussions there. I absolutely agree with not allowing a finger on the trigger when the gun is not even roughly aligned with the target/threat (in this case, during the downward muzzle part of a draw.)

Separately, there is a recurring discussion here on p-f between people who think sights must strictly be visually verified to put finger on trigger - how does one shoot from retention again? ;) - and people who think kinesthetic and/or coarser visual alignment in accordance with the foreground, background, and target at hand could allow finger on trigger as the gun is extended, sometimes without specific visual verification of the sights.

Just differentiating what I see as a branch in that discussion, though I don't think that particular subtlety has been a point of contention in this thread – seems like it's been a more gross violation that's been brought up this time.

Anyway, I think you have an excellent point on muzzle-averting with finger in register constituting a best practice when the gun has to traverse a non-threat. And it reminds me how uncommonly no-shoots are represented in defensive training, and I'm looking at getting more of them in there. Having a hard time finding administrators to stand downrange though, lol. Just kidding. Paper and cardboard, but still, we could use more of them.

Mr_White
10-13-2014, 05:06 PM
The problem is that there are tons of gunowners that have awful muzzle discipline and trigger finger discipline, so blaming this on "competition" seems to me a bit misplaced.

Plenty of incompetence to go around, doesn't matter which corner of the shooting world. Dunces are where you find them!

Dagga Boy
10-13-2014, 07:55 PM
"how does one shoot from retention again?" If you are doing it correctly, your sights are aligned and on target......you just can't see them:eek:. You are not the first with that response. So, from my shooting from Two, my sights are on target before my finger goes to the trigger. These kind of ranges and at the speed of presentation you really need to be good on this from a discipline standpoint.

Mr_White
10-13-2014, 08:22 PM
Here is how I conceptualize it:

What we're really talking about is the muzzle being on target as a condition for the finger to get on the trigger. Sights being on target because the muzzle is on target is basically a tautology. Sights are just our visual reference that tell us where the gun is aimed when we use our eyes to see them in some way. If the gun is completely out of your vision, there is no way you are visually verifying alignment of the gun. You are definitely aiming the gun, though. You are doing it kinesthetically, against a target that will tolerate that kind of aiming, and probably in a circumstance that also creates a necessity to do it that way.

GJM
10-13-2014, 09:40 PM
I think we are at a junction -- and this thread is going to go one of two ways. We will divide into the standard gamers versus timmies, and end up with butthurt. Or, we will figure out how competition can actually help your tactical ability, and how you can integrate competition into an overall program of improving technical and tactical skills.

If competition is going to be integrated, there are caveats. I assume shooters don't invest the time and resources to achieve higher classifications in USPSA to be uncompetitive. Since most people shooting carry guns are in Production, it means OWB holsters. It also means no cover garments since that adds time, and even if you had a cover garment (IDPA) it will be optimized to gaming not EDC, such as AIWB with a closed front shirt. Competitive shooters don't use cover like in the real world. Competitive shooters view white targets as pieces of paper associated with point deductions, and not your wife, child or neighbor. The way the USPSA classification system works, you are generally rewarded with hero or zero, since only your best classifiers are counted, and ones well below your classification are tossed. Ever wonder how someone can make GM, and only have shot 3 GM classifiers in their life -- that is the wonder of USPSA funny math.

With all that "bad stuff," surely there are many good things that come from increasing technical shooting skills, and demonstrating on demand conservative shooting in a match, where everything from your equipment functioning, to each shot you fire over numerous courses of fire does count.

So, rather than focus on only the negatives of competition or low level competitors, let's discuss how higher level shooters are working their butts off getting better, and bringing those skills to being better prepared to use a real gun, carried defensively.

Mr_White
10-13-2014, 09:48 PM
Put me down for a 'no butthurt'.

Jay Cunningham
10-13-2014, 11:22 PM
I like it.

Dagga Boy
10-13-2014, 11:59 PM
I have burned myself out of really caring anymore what guys like rob s or others think. Doesn't affect me, I already have solid wins in the "for real" competition where second place really sucked bad for the other guy, and the guys I have trained have done equally well or better. Folks can believe me or not......adults have lots of choices in life and the consequences that go with them, both positive and negative.

As far as competition. I have started again. I found a local match that does everything I want. It is all steel with no movement with everyone shooting heads up from a box. No pretending I am in a fantasy fight, just pure shooting targets of many various sizes and difficulties at various ranges. It is pure grip, sights, press and follow through. To add to the benefit of working out match problems and shooting while maintaining the level of accountability I like, I am shooting a stock revolver. Running revolvers on steel in both stock and open class was my "thing" back a couple decades ago and it is good for me to have a "fun" shooting outlet, as I obviously take the tactical stuff WAY to seriously. I normally don't shoot for fun. It is deadly serious business, and not play in my world.

What the revolver makes me do is to have to hit everything-period. I have to literally hit with every shot as the reload penalty is huge for me. I did pretty good in my first match. I was in the middle of the pack. I would have been much higher if there was not an 8 plate spinning Polish Plate rack that is about as revolver "unfriendly" as it gets. I also am not losing enough time to matter by waiting for my sights till my finger goes to the trigger and the "unload and show clear" process has no real effect on what I normally do with my regular semi auto carry. So essentially, I found something that works and if I can ever get to the point of being highly competitive in "A" class stock semi-auto I will be happy (winning the Revolver class is pretty easy when there are only a couple people in it...I already did that). I am also thinking about building another open class revolver as well.

Surf
10-14-2014, 03:18 AM
Way too many pages to read so if I contradict or restate what others have said I apologize for that but I stand behind my beliefs regardless. Several years ago I took a road which was very divergent from the norm in the tactical world and it was extremely unpopular among the tactical "gurus" to say the least and I took a lot of flack over it. Which road was that? Well I took a huge lesson, or page from the competition side of the house. I became hugely aware of pure manipulation and raw shooting skills of competition shooters. I knew the stance that other old school Tac Gurus placed on competition but I could not deny the amazing skill sets found in competition shooters. No big deal as I have always been known to operate a bit more than "outside" of the box. If nothing else, my stance would piss them off.

With my curiosity I dove head first into competition shooting drills / techniques without actually shooting competition. I was not against competition but had no time to participate. None the less I found and developed ways to incorporate "gamer" drills / techniques into a tactical shooter. I focused on compartmentalization of the individual skill sets of competition into effective training segments which was but only a part of the development of a much improved "tactical" shooter. Breaking down drills to increase the pure mechanics of weapons handling, manipulations, marksmanship and eventually testing that under compressed time frames with a timer had the added advantage in that it also creates duress.

These types of "competition" drills were only but a segment of training, just like breaking down any skill set into a lone function and drilling it to correct or unconscious competence. Competition type mindset or training of drills was only but a segment of pure mechanics in which I separated from tactics. Just like teaching any of the fundamentals in teaching it in segments or layers, however scaling this to another level. Certain "competition" type drills work certain fundamentals or manipulations which are then scaled into fundamental tactics. Working pure mechanical skill sets is a different component than tactics but the two are symbiotic in the final product that we are trying to produce or attain in our shooters / tacticians.

I remember the days where a timer in my area of training / instruction would have got you ridiculed you right off the range outside of a qualification course. Full on competition type drills or courses of fire? Yep, that shit would get you killed and I would hear that crap at every turn. I have always been a bit "outside" of the proverbial box within my peer group and I still am. Understanding what benefits can be derived and how to go about extracting the correct information / performance and then having a correct plan of how it applies and how to properly integrate that into the "tactical" shooting world is the trick.

I have debated this topic for quite some time in real life and on the www and it is 100% my opinion that the correct integration in training of the competition world with the tactical world without a doubt produces the most formidable people you might ever encounter in a ballistic conflict. I will say that the shooters I produce are some of THE most formidable guys you would not want to encounter in a real conflict, but they would also also be able to hold their own on a weekend IDPA, USPSA match even though they have never shot one formally.

As the saying goes, context is everything.

rob_s
10-14-2014, 05:03 AM
Okay....for Chuck, one more;). I created a horrendous issue the last time I shot IDPA. Apparently, doing a correct Tac reload, re-holstering, then drawing and doing a correct administrative unload is a massive issue where R/O's get hysterical. You know, because its boogeyman that people either shoot themselves or ND's on draws, and shoot themselves on the re-holster........another boogeyman that has never happened and is internet myth.

On whole instance, one whole time, with one whole SO?

Yeah, CLEARLY competition shooting will get you killed.

rob_s
10-14-2014, 05:09 AM
I think we are at a junction -- and this thread is going to go one of two ways. We will divide into the standard gamers versus timmies, and end up with butthurt. Or, we will figure out how competition can actually help your tactical ability, and how you can integrate competition into an overall program of improving technical and tactical skills.

If competition is going to be integrated, there are caveats. I assume shooters don't invest the time and resources to achieve higher classifications in USPSA to be uncompetitive. Since most people shooting carry guns are in Production, it means OWB holsters. It also means no cover garments since that adds time, and even if you had a cover garment (IDPA) it will be optimized to gaming not EDC, such as AIWB with a closed front shirt. Competitive shooters don't use cover like in the real world. Competitive shooters view white targets as pieces of paper associated with point deductions, and not your wife, child or neighbor. The way the USPSA classification system works, you are generally rewarded with hero or zero, since only your best classifiers are counted, and ones well below your classification are tossed. Ever wonder how someone can make GM, and only have shot 3 GM classifiers in their life -- that is the wonder of USPSA funny math.

With all that "bad stuff," surely there are many good things that come from increasing technical shooting skills, and demonstrating on demand conservative shooting in a match, where everything from your equipment functioning, to each shot you fire over numerous courses of fire does count.

So, rather than focus on only the negatives of competition or low level competitors, let's discuss how higher level shooters are working their butts off getting better, and bringing those skills to being better prepared to use a real gun, carried defensively.


This is a very good post.

I think what I, ad a few others, were looking for was at least some sort of actual breakdown and examples of the negatives, which never seemed to come, so even the "pro competition" guys were focusing on the negatives. I still Frankly would like to see these negatives more clearly laid out and documented with "real world" examples of how they rear their heads.

But...

So then is all competition 100% bad all the time? Does it have to be approached in the because:ninja manner? Does it matter what gun/gear you use? Can it be a supplement to other training, or can it stand alone? Does it supplement the newer shooter but standalone for the more experienced shooter/trainee?

If competition is 100% bad, and only "real world" guns and gear should be trained with, what is the suggestion for the average guy to get practice and training? Or the average cop or military guy, for that matter?

Dagga Boy
10-14-2014, 06:13 AM
Competition is not bad. The "tactical guru's" have been using it forever. There are all different types of "competition". So let me precisely define exactly what I think has some issues-"sport shooting" only has so many crossover's to defensive shootings. It is very much like running a automobile. Various auto sports. All use some basic fundamentals. All encourage various equipment and strategies to a particular goal in different racing venues. Some of that will translate to daily driving a vehicle, and some won't. Some will translate to emergency vehicle operations and many of the basics will apply. Of course some of the speeds involved will "get you killed on the street" when you throw in all that evaluation and assessment with traffic, traffic signals, and little old lady's doing 45 mph in the hammer lane:mad:. But the basics are there.

Much of what we do in my program is based out of "competition". Just not "sport shooting". My people had to compete to get there job and keep it. Putting a round in a non-shoot could result in discipline, and some teams its a job ender. A negligent discharge carries a FAR higher penalty than a mere "DQ". We ran man on man competition all the time. It was based on a set of challenges that had some job relevance. If you don't think my guys were comparing scores and trying to beat each other, you would be wrong. So lets quit with the competition is bad. It isn't and people of my ilk don't think it is. What we worry about is habits. I have learned first hand about "boogeymen" that become real. Habits return in times of stress. I love the Pannone quote about it all being practice for something. I am simply very careful about what I am doing repetitively and I really don't like doing things "wrong" on purpose.

What Surf wrote about above is no different than what many have been doing for a very long time. I use a ton of competition based techniques where we have simply tried to take what we find useful and efficient and discard the things that are not. We just are not running it against a bunch of other people on Saturdays at a recreational sporting event.

Erik
10-14-2014, 06:36 AM
What we worry about is habits. I have learned first hand about "boogeymen" that become real. Habits return in times of stress. I love the Pannone quote about it all being practice for something. I am simply very careful about what I am doing repetitively and I really don't like doing things "wrong" on purpose.

You've already referred to bad trigger discipline as one of these habits. Can you describe others that you have seen return in times of stress, and what you do to avoid them becoming habits in your training and competition? I, for one, would really appreciate that.

Chuck Haggard
10-14-2014, 06:59 AM
Just for Rob I made a call to one of our retired guys to confirm a story from back in the day.

Retired Guy was on the department pistol team, which back then meant revolver and PPC competition. Those guys regularly shot quite a bit of .38, there was even a reloading press in the range, which was in the basement of the old station, that guys would use to knock some rounds out at the beginning and end of shift.

I would guess that their round count between practice and competition was easily in the range of what we think of as high round count shooters nowadays. And make no mistake, these guys could shoot. I shot with several guys that were still on the job when I hired on that could clean our 60 round qual course of the day with all rounds in a 4" ragged hole in the middle of the B27, tough for most folks to do when the 25 yard line was 18 rounds, 6 standing, 6 kneeling, 6 weak hand barricade.

Common back then was to dump brass into one's hand and drop it into a big coffee can, so as to avoid having to use up time picking up brass. Also, reloads were typically from the pocket since you could hold 50-60 rounds in the pockets of men's pants back in the day. Dump pouches, worn on the duty belt, were a PITA, so........

Ya'll should already see where this is going.

Retired Guy is in a gunfight one day, dumps brass in hand while going for the reload, realizes that he has done this, throws brass on ground, then sticks hand in pocket and realizes the pocket doesn't hold ammo while at work/not on the range. RG got reloaded from his dump boxes but managed to drop a couple of rounds so he only got four into the gun. Situation gets resolved, RG lives to tell the tale.
RG made some personal training changes after that, and also went to a loop ammo slide on his duty belt so that he could pull rounds out one or two at a time.

Anyway, IMHO a bonafide competition "training" scar that was problematic.

As I tried to point out earlier, getting such info would mean there was an incident, it involved a competitor, there was a training scar of some sort, it was a factory but good guy lived to tell the tale.

If RG had been killed in the incident in question then how would anyone ever know exactly what happened?

Rob, this is where you don't get to say "that doesn't count because "I" wouldn't have ever trained that way". That you personally wouldn't do something doesn't mean that a habit people have built up as an artifact of competition hasn't happened.

rob_s
10-14-2014, 07:45 AM
Just for Rob I made a call to one of our retired guys to confirm a story from back in the day.

Retired Guy was on the department pistol team, which back then meant revolver and PPC competition. Those guys regularly shot quite a bit of .38, there was even a reloading press in the range, which was in the basement of the old station, that guys would use to knock some rounds out at the beginning and end of shift.

I would guess that their round count between practice and competition was easily in the range of what we think of as high round count shooters nowadays. And make no mistake, these guys could shoot. I shot with several guys that were still on the job when I hired on that could clean our 60 round qual course of the day with all rounds in a 4" ragged hole in the middle of the B27, tough for most folks to do when the 25 yard line was 18 rounds, 6 standing, 6 kneeling, 6 weak hand barricade.

Common back then was to dump brass into one's hand and drop it into a big coffee can, so as to avoid having to use up time picking up brass. Also, reloads were typically from the pocket since you could hold 50-60 rounds in the pockets of men's pants back in the day. Dump pouches, worn on the duty belt, were a PITA, so........

Ya'll should already see where this is going.

Retired Guy is in a gunfight one day, dumps brass in hand while going for the reload, realizes that he has done this, throws brass on ground, then sticks hand in pocket and realizes the pocket doesn't hold ammo while at work/not on the range. RG got reloaded from his dump boxes but managed to drop a couple of rounds so he only got four into the gun. Situation gets resolved, RG lives to tell the tale.
RG made some personal training changes after that, and also went to a loop ammo slide on his duty belt so that he could pull rounds out one or two at a time.

Anyway, IMHO a bonafide competition "training" scar that was problematic.

As I tried to point out earlier, getting such info would mean there was an incident, it involved a competitor, there was a training scar of some sort, it was a factory but good guy lived to tell the tale.

If RG had been killed in the incident in question then how would anyone ever know exactly what happened?

Rob, this is where you don't get to say "that doesn't count because "I" wouldn't have ever trained that way". That you personally wouldn't do something doesn't mean that a habit people have built up as an artifact of competition hasn't happened.

Actually, this is where I would exactly say that, but instead I'll ask...

Was his ONLY shooting/training with the gun in matches? What other training/exposure did he have to doing things another/better way?

ETA:
I should say thank you. I think this is a great anecdote, and a great example of what can go wrong. I also think it's important to talk about these kinds of potential issues and how to deal with them. This seems to be a great case of some minor changes that could, or could have, been made to the procedures used in matches to avoid these kinds of problems. Loading from the belt as one would do "in the real world" and letting the brass drop to the ground on reloads would seem to be pretty easy ways to address the problem, no? it's right in line with your earlier comments about using actual carry/duty gear in matches, getting a good rep of the draw stroke, reload, and dryfire during load/unload as well.

Chuck Haggard
10-14-2014, 07:52 AM
Actually, this is where I would exactly say that, but instead I'll ask...

Was his ONLY shooting/training with the gun in matches? What other training/exposure did he have to doing things another/better way?

Other than police quals and such no.

What was the state of the training industry in the 1960s pre Gunsight? People forget that back in the day there was zero training outside of the military and a few LE agencies, and much of that was silly assed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERs7VyRMETg#t=601

(although there is some good stuff on that video, one doesn't want to throw the baby out with the proverbial bath water)

Dr. No
10-14-2014, 08:44 AM
Yet again I'll reiterate:

Competition has NOTHING to do with tactics. Movement, assessment, communication, use of force, muzzle discipline - none of these things are utilized in competition the way they are in real life.

Competition has EVERYTHING to do with marksmanship. You will fire more rounds in an IDPA stage than you probably will your entire life/career in an actual shooting. At a higher level, competition makes you work under pressure which is very difficult to simulate anywhere else aside from force on force training.

Too many people try to make one a replacement for the other and they are NOT.

nycnoob
10-14-2014, 09:55 AM
You've already referred to bad trigger discipline as one of these habits. Can you describe others that you have seen return in times of stress, and what you do to avoid them becoming habits in your training and competition? I, for one, would really appreciate that.


Some of Neyti's beliefs about "cadence" are discussed in this thread:
The Annoying Rightness of Bolke and Dobbs (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?12902-The-Annoying-Rightness-of-Bolke-and-Dobbs&highlight=rightness)

The issue is that you can shoot paper targets in a static range much faster then you should be shooting humans who will move and evade. You may have to quickly stop shooting or change your shooting plan in mid execution. It is common for competitions to be shot a speed which would be faster then your ability to make decisions and Netyi believes this causes many issues in real shootings.

rob_s
10-14-2014, 10:36 AM
Other than police quals and such no.

What was the state of the training industry in the 1960s pre Gunsight? People forget that back in the day there was zero training outside of the military and a few LE agencies, and much of that was silly assed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERs7VyRMETg#t=601

(although there is some good stuff on that video, one doesn't want to throw the baby out with the proverbial bath water)

Just to be clear, I wasn't asking that as a leading question or to cast aspersions on RG, I was genuinely curious.

You bring up a great point, which is the relative infancy of any sort of "real world" tactical training with firearms even for professionals. Look, even, at our own military over the last 13 years and how training has evolved. I've been at the table when guys who got out in 2000 are talking with guys who got out in 2013 and to an outsider it almost sounds like a different military altogether. Even more interesting is talking to guys that were in for the entire transformation.

I think that it's important to note that nobody in this thread is arguing for all competition, all the time, from infancy to the grave, as a substitute for training. The "what training should a CCW person get" thread is an interesting sister discussion to this.

Chuck Haggard
10-14-2014, 10:55 AM
I didn't take it that way Rob.

And yeah, I know SF guys from back in the day that often on average got no more 5.56 than what it took to check zero and do a 40 round pop-up qual yearly.

I was still in the Guard when the US Army suspended all 9mm quals for the rest of the year due to being low on ammo.

The United States Army. Low. On ammo.

It makes Baby Odin weep.

GJM
10-14-2014, 11:04 AM
Yet again I'll reiterate:

Competition has NOTHING to do with tactics. Movement, assessment, communication, use of force, muzzle discipline - none of these things are utilized in competition the way they are in real life.

Competition has EVERYTHING to do with marksmanship. You will fire more rounds in an IDPA stage than you probably will your entire life/career in an actual shooting. At a higher level, competition makes you work under pressure which is very difficult to simulate anywhere else aside from force on force training.

Too many people try to make one a replacement for the other and they are NOT.

Who in this thread is suggesting that competition is a replacement for tactics?

Erik
10-14-2014, 11:08 AM
Some of Neyti's beliefs about "cadence" are discussed in this thread:
The Annoying Rightness of Bolke and Dobbs (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?12902-The-Annoying-Rightness-of-Bolke-and-Dobbs&highlight=rightness)

The issue is that you can shoot paper targets in a static range much faster then you should be shooting humans who will move and evade. You may have to quickly stop shooting or change your shooting plan in mid execution. It is common for competitions to be shot a speed which would be faster then your ability to make decisions and Netyi believes this causes many issues in real shootings.

Thanks. That's a great thread.