How Not To Conduct A Traffic Stop

[Sparks2112]

First time poster long time watcher. I'm not sure if this is the proper place for this video but I think it does really illustrate what one should NOT do as a LEO. My favorite quote by the lead officer "My partner has my back and will lie in a report so I can commit cold blooded murder, execution style."

Anyway video is here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kassP7zI0qc&feature=youtu.be

Discussion on OFCC's web forum is here http://ohioccwforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=54153

[TCinVA]

Yes...that would be a textbook example of someone who doesn't need to be on the road. His tactics were terrible and apparently instead of blaming himself for handling things poorly up to that point he instead decided to take it out on the guy with the permit. I'm willing to bet that this wasn't the first time he used the Judge Dredd routine, but probably didn't have enough proactive supervision in the past to catch him at it and sort him out.

A firing and criminal charges are appropriate here.

Gentle reminder: This will not be allowed to become a generalized LE bashing thread. We don't do that sort of thing here on PF.com. Please keep the discussion about this incident.

[ToddG]

My favorite quote by the lead officer "My partner has my back and will lie in a report so I can commit cold blooded murder, execution style."

That is not the quote. What he says is, "And he would have been a nice witness as I executed you because you're stupid." I did not take it to mean he could shoot someone for failure to inform, but rather that the officer is trying to convince himself that (a) he saw a bulge and (b) he knew the bulge was a gun and thus if he had shot the guy, it would have been justified and over before the partner could have done anything more than watched.

What I see here is an officer who realizes he created a problem (instructing the driver not to move and not to speak for five minutes) and is now suffering from cognitive dissonance. Unable to admit to himself that he caused the conflict, he instead begins to remember things happening in a different way than we saw on the dashcam. He's blaming the driver when he himself is the one who bullied the driver into staying quiet when the driver made repeated attempts to inform.

The other thing I see, of course, is a violation of the so-called "Rule of Stupid" by the driver:
Don't do stupid things,
Don't hang around with stupid people, and
Don't go to stupid places.
My guess is that if our friendly neighborhood ex-taxi driver hadn't been in what is presumably a known prostitution area, with a prostitute and her pimp, he probably would not have experienced any interaction with law enforcement officers that evening. Hanging out with people engaged in criminal activity paints you into a corner and it is unreasonable to expect a LEO to roll up and assume you're just a nice guy doing a favor for a pretty girl...

[Sparks2112]

Gentle reminder: This will not be allowed to become a generalized LE bashing thread. We don't do that sort of thing here on PF.com.

I'm going through the hiring process right now for a depart not too far from there, so you're not gonna hear me cop bashing.

[TCinVA]

assume you're just a nice guy doing a favor for a pretty girl...

The video is fuzzy so it's hard to say...but I'll go out on a limb here and now and say that the girl probably wasn't pretty.


I'm going through the hiring process right now for a depart not too far from there, so you're not gonna hear me cop bashing.

That's meant more as a generalized warning. It's easy for tempers to flare when presented with such an egregious series of actions by a particularly dim law enforcement officer. We just don't want to see the chuckleheads in the video used to smear the hundreds of thousands of good police officers who managed to get through a shift without threatening criminal violence against anyone.

[Sparks2112]

That is not the quote. What he says is, "And he would have been a nice witness as I executed you because you're stupid." I did not take it to mean he could shoot someone for failure to inform, but rather that the officer is trying to convince himself that (a) he saw a bulge and (b) he knew the bulge was a gun and thus if he had shot the guy, it would have been justified and over before the partner could have done anything more than watched.

What I see here is an officer who realizes he created a problem (instructing the driver not to move and not to speak for five minutes) and is now suffering from cognitive dissonance. Unable to admit to himself that he caused the conflict, he instead begins to remember things happening in a different way than we saw on the dashcam. He's blaming the driver when he himself is the one who bullied the driver into staying quiet when the driver made repeated attempts to inform.

The other thing I see, of course, is a violation of the so-called "Rule of Stupid" by the driver:
Don't do stupid things,
Don't hang around with stupid people, and
Don't go to stupid places.
My guess is that if our friendly neighborhood ex-taxi driver hadn't been in what is presumably a known prostitution area, with a prostitute and her pimp, he probably would not have experienced any interaction with law enforcement officers that evening. Hanging out with people engaged in criminal activity paints you into a corner and it is unreasonable to expect a LEO to roll up and assume you're just a nice guy doing a favor for a pretty girl...

Sorry I was paraphrasing, hence italics but I should have been clearer. And I agree that the driver did all sorts of stupid things. I don't think he did anything stupid enough to deserve death threats from a LEO. It's kind of the theory that if a woman goes dressed into a bar provacatively does anything negative that happens to her afterwards become her fault?

[JV_]

Sorry I was paraphrasing, hence italics but I should have been clearer.FWIW: Indirect quotes (paraphrase/summary) don't normally get quotation marks.

[TCinVA]

I don't think he did anything stupid enough to deserve death threats from a LEO.


He didn't. The officer realized the magnitude of his mistake and instead of placing the blame on himself for bad tactics and learning a permanent lesson, he instead decided to take it out on the guy with the permit.

The guy with the permit was indeed very unwise to be hanging around with a pimp and prostitute. The scene the cops rolled up on was ample cause for them to conduct at least a Terry stop. None of that justifies the officer's outrageous behavior.

[ToddG]

It's kind of the theory that if a woman goes dressed into a bar provacatively does anything negative that happens to her afterwards become her fault?

No, it's really not like that. I never said it was the driver's fault. But by the choices he made he put himself into the situation which could otherwise have been avoided. That takes nothing away from the officer's responsibility. It's merely a fact and another example of how poor lifestyle decisions can spiral into unfortunate consequences.

[irishshooter]

very frustrating to watch

[Lon]

very frustrating to watch

That's putting it mildly.

[LittleLebowski]

The officer seems to have been looking for an excuse to get aggressive. This makes me very glad for video recording devices for LEOs.

[agent-smith]

The officer seems to have been looking for an excuse to get aggressive. This makes me very glad for video recording devices for LEOs.

The problem is that those recordings often are only used/released when doing so benefits the LEO community.

When citizens attempt to video LEOs so that WE have evidence to use on our behalf, we can be found guilty of obstructing justice.

[LittleLebowski]

The problem is that those recordings often are only used/released when doing so benefits the LEO community.

When citizens attempt to video LEOs so that WE have evidence to use on our behalf, we can be found guilty of obstructing justice.

True in many cases. There's a few organizations working to clear up the laws in the few states that try and insist that a police officer on duty cannot be recorded. I myself, plan to record any interaction between myself and an LEO that is talking to me in an official capacity.

However, the word is getting out.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMMPV4D6cs0&feature=player_embedded

[jetfire]

The officer aside, I want to talk about the rule of stupid for a second. The biggest takeaway I get from this video is "don't pick up hookers in shady parts of town". I spent enough time working in the political side of this thing to realize that perception of our action when we're packing is tremendously important.

It's just like the rules people have for when they're carrying: such as not drinking or not giving in to road rage. They want their actions to be above reproach when they're armed, and that's something we should all strive for.

I'm not blaming the permit holder for the cop's response, but I'm certainly faulting him for apparently picking up a pro in a shady part of town.

[LittleLebowski]

Maybe I misunderstood it but it looked to me like he was giving a ride to someone who was talking to a female that had previous arrests for prostitution. The CCW holder was not picking up the female himself.

[Lon]

I believe the driver stated he was giving them both a ride and that she had asked him for the ride.

[ToddG]

Maybe I misunderstood it but it looked to me like he was giving a ride to someone who was talking to a female that had previous arrests for prostitution.

Any way you slice it, he was doing something stupid with someone stupid in a stupid place. Three strikes and look what happened... He drew the winning ticket in the Confrontation with Angry Cop lottery.

[jetfire]

I believe the driver stated he was giving them both a ride and that she had asked him for the ride.

General rule of thumb: when a woman in a shady part of town asks you for a "ride" at like 3am, the correct answer is "no".

[JDM]

If nothing else, this reenforces the age old adage that cops are people. Many many stupid people exist, and a few are bound to become law enforcement officers. There is nothing that can be done to stop it. Unfortunately, you just have to be prepared for, like TLG said, "winning the Angry Cop Lottery."

That said, I think you have a better chance of winning the REAL lottery than running into an officer like this. The ratio of Good People:Bad people is far far higher in law enforcement then, likely, any other profession.

As to the driver and his actions? He needs to stop being nice. I'm gonna give the guy the benefit of the doubt here, and buy his story that he was out looking for a job with a sweeping company (he seems like that sort of guy) and that he had a good reason to be driving around the Red Light District at that hour. What he didn't need to be doing was offering people (former cab fares?) rides in said district. That's a good way to get into this situation or worse.

[Sparks2112]

From what I understand he knew the woman from a previous job he had as a taxi driver. She asked for a ride, and while he complied she asked to pick up a friend of hers. Judging by how the ccw holder conducted himself after the stop I can truly believe that he was naive enough not to put together the hooker + pimp connection. Once again, he put himself in a bad situation, and it's a good lesson to learn to not put yourself in a bad situation. The high light for me is still the officer's behavior during the stop.

[LittleLebowski]

I agree about the rule of stupid.

Like I said, I'm glad for the video. Hopefully the video will keep the officer from going through with his wish to take away that citizen's carry permit and it will shed light on a very unprofessional, angry LEO.

[LittleLebowski]

Gauging the guy's voice....he sure sounded dead honest.

[JDM]

Gauging the guy's voice....he sure sounded dead honest.

Exactly. Also, the lack of additional charges like possession of controlled substance, etc also pretty much seals it.

[Shellback]

The officer's behavior in the OP is appalling and he should be fired for threatening to execute a citizen along with threatening to assault the other people present. I also believe the assisting officer should be disciplined for not intervening on behalf of the citizen.

The other posters are correct that if you hang out in shady parts of town with shady people you do get unwanted attention.

However, I did like the video LL posted with the former Marine police officer. He was professional, courteous and pretty frickin' funny! And now he's a Youtube star. :cool:

[TGS]

On thing I kept thinking while watching this was, "SHUT THE FUCK UP."

When dealing with someone that is irate, you're not going to do yourself any good. You're not talking yourself out of it, and are only giving yourself a chance to hurt your case if you misspeak.

Even if the police officer isn't irate, just shut the F up. You're not going to win their game when they've already made a decision to arrest you.

[TGS]

"Oh you're a Marine?.......code 4, we're good"

Gotta love this gunclub.

[LittleLebowski]

On thing I kept thinking while watching this was, "SHUT THE FUCK UP."

When dealing with someone that is irate, you're not going to do yourself any good. You're not talking yourself out of it, and are only giving yourself a chance to hurt your case if you misspeak.

Even if the police officer isn't irate, just shut the F up. You're not going to win their game when they've already made a decision to arrest you.

Actually, the guy is being charged because he did indeed shut up when told to by the officer. If you peruse the Ohio CCW forums, this seems to be a trend where the officer will charge you with "failure to disclose" if you do not immediately disclose that you are carrying. In one case, a man carrying was charged because it took him 54 seconds to be able to make himself heard. Case was dismissed.

As always, it's not black and white. Truth is in shades of gray quite often. If you peruse the Ohio CCW forums, you will see several cases of professional, courteous, and laudable conduct by officers dealing with armed citizens. There might be even one we know ;)

[LittleLebowski]

"Oh you're a Marine?.......code 4, we're good"

Gotta love this gunclub.

We need it after Sgt Major Truscott (retired, anyone who was with 1st Marines in the late 90's knows "T-Rex") did this stupid shit (http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/Helmetless-Boardless-Dad-Found-Guilty--116356664.html).

Sgt Major Truscott did not allow his Marines to wear Camelbaks in 29 Palms in the summer because they "were not part of the uniform." Seriously.

[dookie1481]

We need it after Sgt Major Truscott (retired, anyone who was with 1st Marines in the late 90's knows "T-Rex") did this stupid shit (http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/Helmetless-Boardless-Dad-Found-Guilty--116356664.html).

Sgt Major Truscott did not allow his Marines to wear Camelbaks in 29 Palms in the summer because they "were not part of the uniform." Seriously.

That story, wow...unfortunately, that is the kind of behavior that I tend to expect from people who became Senior SNCOs...

[Mitchell, Esq.]

Exactly how does this cop expect any of his future use of force incidents to be handled?
In my opinion, he's now a liability to his partners and his department.

If he shoots someone, right or wrong, this is going to be in the media, and in front of the jury in a criminal or civil trial.

Even if it's kosher, he's said on camera, in uniform, in the course of his duty, that he's beat/execute someone - "So, you executed him, Officer?" goes the cross examination...then down hill.

Further, he's probably badly alienated members of the community the police don't want to alienate - voters. You can antagonize the shit-bags all you want to within reason...but he's going to be the cause of a lot of letters to the mayor, attendance at town meetings and lobbying at the legislature.

He's toast. He needs to retire, and the police in his area need to understand how badly he's damaged their ability to deal with the public.

To some degree or another, the police depend on people in the community to tell them things. Which way did he go...did you see this person...have you seen the missing kid...

What happens when the answer defaults to "Am I free to leave?", "I don't want to talk to you" or "Lawyer".

Good luck on that PD the next time they need public cooperation.

[Sparks2112]

Per the Canton PD's facebook page the officer has been removed from duty and internal affairs has begun an investigation.

[KeeFus]

Good roll call video of what not to do. This discussion keeps coming up at work. In the Oceanside video, was the guy CCWing? At any rate, that Cop nailed it. Youtube, here he comes!

[LittleLebowski]

Good roll call video of what not to do. This discussion keeps coming up at work. In the Oceanside video, was the guy CCWing? At any rate, that Cop nailed it. Youtube, here he comes!

He was unloaded open carrying as per CA's retarded laws.

[LittleLebowski]

The officer has been suspended. Probably with pay.

[KeeFus]

He was unloaded open carrying as per CA's retarded laws.

Ah, ok. I was thinking that if he was CCWing he had to show proof of his identity and the permit.

If he was suspended then he will be paid until IA finishes its review. Then he will be fired (or asked to resign). He's an idiot. If my rookie did that I'd have his ass on a skillet. In our society, interacting with citizens and legal gun possession should be a no brainer. Stuff like this is what makes it hard for civilians to trust what we LEO's do and/or say.

This LEO should have known his camera was on. I can not figure why he acted like that. Officer safety is 1 thing but he lost it. That's an epic failure on his part.

[LittleLebowski]

From an LEO at the Ohio CCW forums:


I actually had to watch this video twice, I just couldn't believe it the first time. I've sent this to several OPOTA trainers to be used as a how "NOT TO" for their classes. That being said what your seeing here is a systemic problem, it's not just the officer! You also need to investigate the chain of command starting with his immediate supervisor. Officers don't get like this overnight, it happens slowly over time. A wink and a nod when there are a few too many bumps, or not correcting behavior when necessary leads to what we have here. I knew there were going to be problems when Ofc. "Knuckles" get's out of the car with gloves on. He's been doing this for way too long and getting away with it, he would try that on my side of town and get several senior officers riding him hard (and that's before the sergeant gets a shot at him.)

I think your going to find that you have several failures to supervise in the chain and/or no supervision at all, that's the only way I can see this happening. And the other officer is on the hook for not taking control of the situation and sending knuckles back to the car for a time out (And yes I've done this.) I just don't really have the time to go through this minute by minute, the IA package would make war and peace look like a dime store novel.


I need an aspirin ....

[jslaker]

If he was suspended then he will be paid until IA finishes its review. Then he will be fired (or asked to resign). He's an idiot. If my rookie did that I'd have his ass on a skillet.

I'm all for giving officers benefit of the doubt and a certain amount of leeway, but, IMO, he's getting off easy with anything less than an assault charge from the video I just watched.

[KeeFus]

I'm all for giving officers benefit of the doubt and a certain amount of leeway, but, IMO, he's getting off easy with anything less than an assault charge from the video I just watched.

He probably will. I can definetly see a Communicating Threats charge. What ever happens, his LEO career should be over.

[LittleLebowski]

Do you LEOs think he donned the gloves for a reason related to beating suspects as the offer above insinuates that I quoted?

[KeeFus]

For me personally, I keep a set of HATCH gloves (provided by my agency) close by. I wear them some times but other times I dont. If I have an opportunity to put them on before searching some one then I do. Looking at the video, I would be out of line to guess at his mindset and why he put on gloves.

[jslaker]

He probably will. I can definetly see a Communicating Threats charge.

Yeah, I got curious and looked after commenting, and it appears OH assault law requires actually inflicting physical harm. I'm used to GA law where simply putting a reasonable person in fear of being harmed is enough to catch a simple assault charge.

[TGS]

Actually, the guy is being charged because he did indeed shut up when told to by the officer. If you peruse the Ohio CCW forums, this seems to be a trend where the officer will charge you with "failure to disclose" if you do not immediately disclose that you are carrying. In one case, a man carrying was charged because it took him 54 seconds to be able to make himself heard. Case was dismissed.

As always, it's not black and white. Truth is in shades of gray quite often. If you peruse the Ohio CCW forums, you will see several cases of professional, courteous, and laudable conduct by officers dealing with armed citizens. There might be even one we know ;)

I was referring to 90% of his speech, which was after the event of him finally being able to announce he had a CCW permit and was armed.....the officer already made up his mind. Short of jedi mind tricks, you're not convincing the officer otherwise. Best to invoke your 5th and keep yourself from getting into more trouble by misspeaking, is what I was getting it.

I'm not purpoting that anyone should break the law or be uncompliant in the face of a lawful order.

I have a buddy that used to be in Suicide Charlie at the stumps from 1998-2002. My oh my...from what I gather the view on water supply/hydration in the Corps has changed dramatically since then!

"But Gunny, we have no more water!"

"What you need more? Shouldn't have drank it all. It's called discipline. How'bout you get some more of that?!"

[LittleLebowski]

I've seen a lot of good Marines leave the Corps because of idiotic SNCOs.

[JodyH]

That LEO has some... issues.
If this happened to me, I'd probably be dead right now.
I have a slow fuse followed by a very impressive explosion, behavior like he displayed punches all my buttons and my temper would have gotten the best of me.
That's why videos such as this scare the crap out of me.

[Lon]

Looking at the video, I would be out of line to guess at his mindset and why he put on gloves.

THIS. I will say that I use gloves in the summer when it's hot and muggy on occasion because sweaty hands and sweaty body parts can make it difficult to gain control of a resisting suspect.

I showed this to a mixed bag of officers at my PD. Command staff, sergeants, detectives and officers. All expressed disbelief and outrage. This kind of behavior will NOT be tolerated at my agency.

[Lon]

Exactly how does this cop expect any of his future use of force incidents to be handled?
In my opinion, he's now a liability to his partners and his department.

If he shoots someone, right or wrong, this is going to be in the media, and in front of the jury in a criminal or civil trial.

Even if it's kosher, he's said on camera, in uniform, in the course of his duty, that he's beat/execute someone - "So, you executed him, Officer?" goes the cross examination...then down hill.

Further, he's probably badly alienated members of the community the police don't want to alienate - voters. You can antagonize the shit-bags all you want to within reason...but he's going to be the cause of a lot of letters to the mayor, attendance at town meetings and lobbying at the legislature.

He's toast. He needs to retire, and the police in his area need to understand how badly he's damaged their ability to deal with the public.

To some degree or another, the police depend on people in the community to tell them things. Which way did he go...did you see this person...have you seen the missing kid...

What happens when the answer defaults to "Am I free to leave?", "I don't want to talk to you" or "Lawyer".

Good luck on that PD the next time they need public cooperation.

This is an excellent post. I tell my rookies time and time again. If you screw up, admit it. DO NOT, under any circumstances try to dissemble or outright lie about the incident. Tell the truth. It may hurt, but your integrity/honesty cannot later be attacked. Once your credibility can be attacked with justification, you're worthless. Especially since the Prosecution has a duty to inform the defense of misconduct in your personnel file or risk a Brady violation.

[Mitchell, Esq.]

Especially since the Prosecution has a duty to inform the defense of misconduct in your personnel file or risk a Brady violation.

Since when does that ever stop a prosecutor from putting on a bad witness?

[Lon]

Putting on a dirtbag bad witness is one thing. But a cop who has this on his record? Don't think it'll happen around here. I've seen em cut deals or refuse cases due to the officer. And that's not because of misconduct like this.

[Shellback]

What sucks is even if he's fired initially due to the incident he'll probably be rehired by an arbitrator, pressure from his union or just sign on to another agency. It happens all the time.

He needs to be behind bars for making terroristic threats like any citizen would be and not on a paid vacation.

[Mitchell, Esq.]

I think this guy's actions are reflective something that TPI has discussed a lot: Complacency.

He was complacent. He knew he was in command of the situation, and acted that way - then found out he stuck his head into the nest of a 10 pound brown recluse spiders who was actually very polite, and really didn't want to kill anyone...

Then he shit a brick because his worldview just got rocked like a Cro-Cop shin kick to the melon with the realization "Oh My G0D I fucked up..."

[NickA]

Rule of Stupid indeed....

Don't go stupid places - shady part of town at night.
With stupid people - your idiot partner (in this case either one of the LEO's)
And do stupid things - like stick your fucking head in a car full of people you haven't even ASKED if they were armed, much less searched, while said dumbass partner watches you do it without saying a word or really even paying attention, and then try to cover it up by going batshit crazy and threatening to harass and murder a citizen.

I agree with what's already been said- that LEO knew that if somebody in that car had wanted him dead he'd already be there and it would be largely his own fault. I'd say both of these guys have no business being cops.
Also with JodyH; I'm afraid my mouth would have gotten the better of me and that nut would have killed or at least beat the hell out of me.

[SecondsCount]

Unfortunately there are a few bad apples that make the rest look bad.

Most of my interactions with police have been positive but a couple have been similar to this. Makes me glad that we have technology like video cameras to weed them out.

[ford.304]

And this is why good procedure in police departments to weed them out is *so* important. Because our whole system of justice depends on citizens trusting (and being able to trust) that these are isolated incidents and not just how police operate. Every cop who has pulled me over for speeding has been completely polite.

Other officers should be concerned that the guy gets fair due process and isn't just run out from political backlash, but in a situation like this, that should be it. I sure as hell would want my coworkers out if they pulled this kind of crap.

[LittleLebowski]

I think this guy's actions are reflective something that TPI has discussed a lot: Complacency.

He was complacent. He knew he was in command of the situation, and acted that way - then found out he stuck his head into the nest of a 10 pound brown recluse spiders who was actually very polite, and really didn't want to kill anyone...

Then he shit a brick because his worldview just got rocked like a Cro-Cop shin kick to the melon with the realization "Oh My G0D I fucked up..."

I think that you nailed it with this post.

In reference to my gloves question earlier, what was said in answer makes perfect sense, thanks for the explanation gents.

[ToddG]

I just want to say how impressed I am with the pistol-forum community here. We've got LEOs and private citizens discussing and agreeing about an officer's poor conduct. There's been none of the "he's a cop; if you're not a cop you don't understand" bullshit nor any of the "OMG I H8 cops!" idiocy that seems to come up on other forums. Hell, quite a few of the comments on the YouTube page are outright disgusting.

Thanks to everyone here at PF for realizing we're all on the same side.

[KeeFus]

On another forum I was visiting there is a link that shoots you to an 'officer' forum (I'm not a member there...). Quite a few of the LEO's on there are actually defending him, belittling folks who post against the officer. Disgusting. :mad:

I would echo that if this guy worked with me he would be reported and probably out of a job. We don't have union's here and are 'at will' employees. I do not see how a union (which I think Ohio has) would be able to defend his actions. I have never trained or worked with anyone that acted like this guy.

Funny thing...well, maybe not so funny. My in-laws are down this week and they live in Cuyahoga Falls, about 25 miles from Canton. My father-in-law saw this video yesterday and has now talked himself out of getting a pistol.

[LittleLebowski]

The officer has sixteen complaints against him since 2000 (http://www.cantonrep.com/carousel/x121489646/Canton-officer-under-investigation-after-concealed-carry-arrest). Is that out of the norm for a city that size?

Off topic, it pains me that he is a Marine (not active).

[Mitchell, Esq.]

Cops, on a LE dominated board, admitting another cop made a mistake, is just not going to happen.

The Ohio CCW people, on their board, admitting that their guy was riding around with questionable people and didn't assert himself all that well to inform the officer, is not going to happen.

Their is enough shit to spread around for everyone.

[Lon]

Keith,

What 'officer' forum is that? I've got to see this. Pm me if u want.

I cannot imagine defending that behavior. I have to see their "justification".

[KeeFus]

This is the thread as it appeared yesterday on NC Gun Owners forum (http://www.ncgunowners.com/forum/Thread-Ohio-police-threatens-to-kill-CCer). I clicked it and it let me view the thread. I just clicked it and now it wants you to be a member.

http://forums.officer.com/forums/showthread.php?168129-Terrible-Display-of-Officer-Safety-and-Public-Disrespect/


Cached version from Google. It has way more pages than the cached version is supplying.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:ZUrH-U5899AJ:forums.officer.com/forums/showthread.php%3F168129-Terrible-Display-of-Officer-Safety-and-Public-Disrespect/page2+http://forums.officer.com/forums/showthread.php%3F168129-Terrible-Display-of-Officer-Safety-and-Public-Disrespect/page2&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a&source=www.google.com

[TGS]

So we are all pretty much in agreement about the officers involved.

What about the driver? We don't need to rehash he's in a shady part of town with shady people, but....

Do you lawyers/LEO's in here think they can make the case he was indeed breaking the law with trying to hire a prostitute, and if such wouldn't that make his concealed weapons permit invalid since he's involved in criminal activity? No doubt the officers are in trouble. At the same time, I don't really see this guy being out of hotwater himself.

[ford.304]

I'm not familiar with the prostitution statutes in Ohio... it actually seems like they might have severely hurt their case in that regard, by focussing so much on getting him for the failure to notify instead of investigating the possible prostitution charge.

From a quick search... it appears to be a third degree misdemeanor, with something odd tacked on about losing your driver's license if it happens in a car.

Still, it seems difficult to prove, at least from that video, as all that they observed is someone they thought was a prostitute talking to him. I'm pretty that isn't enough to prosecute, but I am not a lawyer. In any case, they have not filed soliciting charges against him, only something about being stopped on a public road, and the failure to notify.

And, from an entirely talking out of my ass personal opinion... the dude *sounds* like he was actually telling the truth about knowing her from before, and dropping her off. Also, I wouldn't *think* that bringing the pimp along in the car would be standard practice... but that's complete conjecture based on the tone of his voice, so who knows.

Definitely, though, not a good place to be at night, and not a good thing to be doing if he was lying. I'd say he actually handled his interaction with the police well, though - he tried to inform multiple times, and was holding his license up when he got out of the car. He *could* have just shouted it and forced himself to talk over the cop... but that's much easier said than done.

[LittleLebowski]

This is the thread as it appeared yesterday on NC Gun Owners forum (http://www.ncgunowners.com/forum/Thread-Ohio-police-threatens-to-kill-CCer). I clicked it and it let me view the thread. I just clicked it and now it wants you to be a member.

http://forums.officer.com/forums/showthread.php?168129-Terrible-Display-of-Officer-Safety-and-Public-Disrespect/


Cached version from Google. It has way more pages than the cached version is supplying.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:ZUrH-U5899AJ:forums.officer.com/forums/showthread.php%3F168129-Terrible-Display-of-Officer-Safety-and-Public-Disrespect/page2+http://forums.officer.com/forums/showthread.php%3F168129-Terrible-Display-of-Officer-Safety-and-Public-Disrespect/page2&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a&source=www.google.com


Threads have been disappeared.

[Shellback]

The officer has sixteen complaints against him since 2000 (http://www.cantonrep.com/carousel/x121489646/Canton-officer-under-investigation-after-concealed-carry-arrest). Is that out of the norm for a city that size?

Off topic, it pains me that he is a Marine (not active).

I don't see him representing the Police or the Marines. He acts more like a roided up nut case than anything.

Not to throw gas on a fire but... A lil history. http://www.cantonrep.com/topstories/x121489646/Canton-officer-under-investigation-after-concealed-carry-arrest


Harless, 45, an Ohio native and former Marine worked as a police officer in Virginia for four years before coming to Canton in 1996.

During his career he has earned several commendations.

One was from a Virginia judge, who praised the way Harless handled a situation involving a man with a gun, according to records in his city personnel file.

Canton’s internal affairs unit has investigated 16 complaints involving Harless dating back to 2000.

He was reprimanded in one 2003 case. Harless and another officer were exonerated of using excessive force, but were given a letter of reprimand for not activating the in-car video camera at the scene per department policy.

I do not know the details on what it takes to be investigated 16 times by IA and some of the incidents could be quite trivial in retrospect. However, having an excessive force charge while your camera was conveniently left off is slightly suspect and points to a pattern.

I don't think this was a "single incident" due to the fact that he got out of that car wearing those gloves, his prior history, and was really jacked up even at that point. This statement has been confirmed by several LEOs who agree with that assessment concerning donning the gloves. Single incident or not he has no problem judging those people for a single incident and any info he finds on his computer about them will be used against them as should the info about him.

[Mitchell, Esq.]

So we are all pretty much in agreement about the officers involved.

What about the driver? We don't need to rehash he's in a shady part of town with shady people, but....

Do you lawyers/LEO's in here think they can make the case he was indeed breaking the law with trying to hire a prostitute, and if such wouldn't that make his concealed weapons permit invalid since he's involved in criminal activity? No doubt the officers are in trouble. At the same time, I don't really see this guy being out of hotwater himself.


Some cross examinations questions for the police RE: Prostitution charges

Officer, did you witness any conversation between the defendant and the woman you allege to be prostitute?
Officer, did you witness any conversation between the defendant and the man you allege to be a pimp?
Officer, did you witness any funds passing between the defendant and the woman you allege to be prostitute?
Officer, did you witness any funds passing between the defendant and the man you allege to be a pimp?

They have no case.

Being in proximity to a hooker is not illegal. Depending on her "Grading" it can be really stupid or a really smart place to be, but it is not illegal.

They have to make a case proved beyond reasonable doubt for the sex/money exchange. I don't see it happening.

[jlw]

A guy like that wouldn't last long in my agency. The line level guys would have dealt with it efficiently enough that the command level actions would almost be a formality.

This single incident would be more than enough to reach a termination threshold.

As for the number of complaints against a peace officer, simply reporting the number is proof of nothing as simply reporting the number does not give the substance of the complaints or the findings of any investigation. When I was a shift sergeant, one of my guys received a complaint because he dared eat lunch in a restaurant to the dismay of a person that didn't believe that a cop should be allowed to take a meal break much less one in a restaurant.

[ToddG]

The officer's vague history without details is meaningless. If someone said "Todd Green, who has been in police custody more than a dozen times" that would sound really bad until it was explained that I just drive fast and get pulled over a lot.

I think we can all agree that the officer's behavior over this 20min of video is all we need to determine the rightness or wrongness of his behavior and attitude.

[ford.304]

Yeah, I was going to say... you probably get a couple complaints a year just from having the job. Or even just being a slightly disagreeable person (which of course, is not an offense in and of itself).

[mc1911]

Behavior aside, something that irritates me is the mindset the officer has that if there is a gun present that is not his, he is automatically in danger and could have been killed. I can understand recognizing "Gee, we just searched this guy's car with him in it and now we realize he could have popped us at any time" and feeling stupid about your own failure to use common sense. The proper response there would be, "I could have gotten myself shot if this person was a killer; thankfully, he clearly isn't." Then spend the next few hours kicking yourself in the butt rather than threatening to beat or kill the other guy.

This officer demonstrates the same thinking of people who push to have CCW databases made public record. Someone who believes that the presence of a firearm = near death experience lacks intellect and maturity and is driven solely by irrational emotion, as we see here. Give them a badge and they can wreak havoc.

[irishshooter]

Behavior aside, something that irritates me is the mindset the officer has that if there is a gun present that is not his, he is automatically in danger and could have been killed.

its unfortunate because a lot of "kool aid drinkers" feel the same. in NH when the law forbiding firearms in the State House was repealed an elementary school cancelled their already planned visit to the State House out of "fearing for the childrens safety".....funny thing is they probably brought the kids to the local PD as their class field trip instead because its safer?!?!? :confused:

[jslaker]

Other officers should be concerned that the guy gets fair due process and isn't just run out from political backlash, but in a situation like this, that should be it. I sure as hell would want my coworkers out if they pulled this kind of crap.
If I were one of the officers, the fact that poor procedure on my partner's part could very well get me killed would take precedence over the political considerations.

[gtmtnbiker98]

Being an LEO in Ohio, this is an embarrassment! The officer should be charged with Aggravated Menacing and fired.

[jlw]

For those bringing up the partner saying that he should be making an issue of other's tactics, remember that the partner is the one that nosedived into the backseat and began searching a still occupied vehicle without even a cursory check of said occupants.

The lack of competence is as apparent as the lack of professionalism.

[Tamara]

The officer's vague history without details is meaningless.

True, but with the sky over Canton, OH threatening to turn legal-pad-yellow and this story breaking national on FOX, you don't need to be the Amazing Kreskin to know that at least some folks there are wishing they'd dropped the hammer harder on an earlier (and cheaper) violation. This loose cannon has apparently rolled around on deck for awhile before he came to rest in the powder mag with the fuse still burning.

My "cop-bashing" friends in TX are less than amused...

http://maypeacebewithyou.blogspot.com/2011/07/we-can-do-better-than-this.html

http://thelawdogfiles.blogspot.com/2011/07/what-hell.html

[TCinVA]

Unfortunately police agencies like many other government institutions are typically reactive and not proactive. It's highly likely that several...or even dozens...of previous incidents were never dealt with because nobody complained. Those sorts of failures in leadership breed this kind of phenomenon. Somebody steps over the line, isn't challenged on it, and then makes a routine of living beyond the line until sooner or later they screw the pooch in a fashion which cannot be ignored.

[section8usmc]

I am horrified, and quite frankly, scared out of my damn mind with this. I am a Marine. I've been shot at before. I had an automatic weapon jammed in my nostril. No joke. Some of it may be because I was a younger fire pisser, and didn't have a grasp on the true value of life, but damn my guts are in a knot. My heart is heatingout of my chest. I watched this over a half hour ago.

I have cops on both sides of my family, am friends with cops both active and retired. I can't imagine any of them doing anything outside the lines. Most LEOs follow the law to a T. Thank you for doing your job, and doing it well, and taking seriously why you do what you do.

I am speechless...thank god for the qwerty keyboard and smartphones. This has always been one of my biggest fears in life. Up here in Wisconsin, they finally signed the CC BILL into law, so that specifically would never have been an issue in the past. In the Marines, we had what you call the 10%. Slackers, screw ups, trouble makers, and so on. These two fall in that category. I have seen people's homes get raided because they "got a tip" someone was dealing in that house. No proof or even remote suspicion. Just what turned out in the end to be someone that didn't like them, told the cops a bunch of BS, and that was good enough for a whole team in swat gear to ransacked the house, terrify her and her kids, and in the end, find nothing.

How about instances where the freak out some old couple in bed because they have the wrong house. How about the instances where they even shoot an innocent. How about getting charged with a felony or getting shot because you come out of a room packing, because the front door just got kicked in before the sun is even up, because they don't properly identify themselves after they send that front door through the kitchen.

My brothers in arms, this is absolutely scary as hell. These home raid things happen, a lot more than people think. Also, thanks to all of the instructors for all of the advice and info. You can never have too much knowledge. You guys do a great job. Don't think I will sleep tonight. Wow...

[LittleLebowski]

Section8, let's keep this thread on its state topic. PM me if you have any questions.

[section8usmc]

Section8, let's keep this thread on its state topic. PM me if you have any questions.

Sorry. I am also a ham radio operator, and tend to be a windbag and train of thought gets the best of me. :-)

Do any LEOs (or anyone else) here think this will have implications toward the view of LE country wide ? Could this be a good with the bad kinda thing? For instance, help get the rest of the LEOs like this (albeit few and far between) off the streets, and make departments more proactive about PTSD like the military has steeped up recently ? Will people start losing faith in LE because of something like this ? How do you good guys bounce back from these happenings ?

I agree, stupid to put yourself in that situation in the first place. Maybe the cop was mad because he took his hooker ?

[gtmtnbiker98]

Unfortunately police agencies like many other government institutions are typically reactive and not proactive. It's highly likely that several...or even dozens...of previous incidents were never dealt with because nobody complained. Those sorts of failures in leadership breed this kind of phenomenon. Somebody steps over the line, isn't challenged on it, and then makes a routine of living beyond the line until sooner or later they screw the pooch in a fashion which cannot be ignored.They cannot be proactive due in part to the fact that most are Union shops. You can thank the FOP and other similarly configured Unions for this type of behavior being allowed to prosper.

[jlw]

Do any LEOs (or anyone else) here think this will have implications toward the view of LE country wide ?


I was not a cop at the time of the Rodney King incident, and I work for an agency 3000 miles from LA, but I have had that incident thrown in my face more than once.

Something tells me that reviews of stored video of this guy will lead to similar incidents. By standing order, our supervisors periodically spot check videos. They are to document the good things they see and deal with the bad.

[TGS]

Sorry. I am also a ham radio operator, and tend to be a windbag and train of thought gets the best of me. :-)

Do any LEOs (or anyone else) here think this will have implications toward the view of LE country wide ? Could this be a good with the bad kinda thing? For instance, help get the rest of the LEOs like this (albeit few and far between) off the streets, and make departments more proactive about PTSD like the military has steeped up recently ? Will people start losing faith in LE because of something like this ? How do you good guys bounce back from these happenings ?

I agree, stupid to put yourself in that situation in the first place. Maybe the cop was mad because he took his hooker ?

Considering there's hundreds, if not thousands of videos of inappropriate police conduct available on youtube.com alone, I highly doubt we're going to see any nationwide revolution on our peace officers.

There will be another video next month, or maybe next week, that will be even worse. The guy dragging the old lady out of the car, the one where a SWAT team shoots a caged toy-class dog, the one where some highway patrolmen pull over an ambulance transporting a patient and get rough with the EMT's.....just use a search function. This isn't anything new, and it's never going to end. Cops are people like everyone else.....sometimes you get someone with malicious intentions just because it's fun for them, and sometimes you get someone who is warped and can't uphold the standard. For all we know, the officer in question could actually be trying to be the best cop he can be and has some serious personal shit out of his control that has affected his personality in a negative way. Not saying it makes his actions okay, but they're PEOPLE.

They're burdened with a certain type of responsibility that 90% of Americans don't have or will never experience, and that involves making the right decision when no-one is looking with a responsibility to the public and not their companies finances(read: their paycheck). There's a human factor involved in that unlike most Americans who live ordinary lives with close oversight at work and fairly little responsibility to others. We all have to capability to become him, or even worse. This is nothing new. Humans have been making bad decisions for quite some time now.

[Corvus]

There is no excuse for the way this went , the LE should go to jail for what he did and the 2nd one for not stopping him.

[ford.304]

I don't think TGS was saying that it was an excuse, just that in a country this size, you are going to see the incidents. Cops have a tough job, and there is no 100% sure way to weed out all of the wackos *before* they do something.

That said, that doesn't mean that training, procedures, and leadership can't reduce these kinds of incidents.

[KeeFus]

Tonight at roll call we all watched this video. Everyone was in agreement that the cop needs to find another occupation. We all said that we would have intervened and pulled him off to the side and jerked a knot in him. Look at the position he has put his partner and his agency in. I don't care if he's got personal problems...leave that shit at the house. If you can't then call out sick and deal with whatever is making you act like that.

I do not think it will have implications world-wide...maybe here in the US. IMHO, citizens in general are getting fed up with the government and stuff like this does nothing more that add fuel to that fire.

[section8usmc]

I must say, I am impressed at how this particular subject has been handled here. It is a touchy subject to say the least, to some more than others. So kudos to everyone here (minus my little rant before...oops. sorry.) Read a lot before I joined. Good, good, group.

Makes me think of what my grandmother always said. Think whatever you want but don't let it come out of your mouth. I think I would have bit my tongue after the fireworks started for fear of being beaten or shot. I don't see myself looking at LE any different, as this is an isolated incident. Maybe not in that precinct or department, but as a whole, most would stop this from happening in the first place.

It also drives home the common sense factor of not putting yourself in an awkward or potentially sticky situation. Like others said, people are just that; people. Fallible human beings. We all are. I think the real focus once most people have seen this, is what happens to these guys legally. That's where people could get really sore with the issue at hand. Fearing fallout, I doubt highly these two, especially #1, will only get a slap on the wrist. The shock factor is hard to process after watching, but once it has sunk in, it is a bit easier to be objective once the emotion has subsided. Great posts. Never realized the value of forums until recently. So much info and you learn a lot...about the subject, and people too !

[41magfan]

A couple of observations from a former career LEO who's been on BOTH SIDES of a number of IA Investigations;

What you see here is a reflection of our culture.

This officer represents a significant number of LEO's who think they are the only folks that can be trusted with a firearm. When you fully understand that perspective you can appreciate how it affects everything they do in their interactions with the public-at-large. In my experience, that elitist attitude is pervasive with most LE executives and tends to flow from the top down to the rank and file.

Secondly, as long as law enforcement must recruit from the human race, you're going to get a few like this guy. It's inevitable. But the problem isn't hiring knuckleheads - it's retaining them when you discover you have one onboard. You can tell by the mannerisms of the assisting officer that he's not comfortable with what's transpired here but he's just going with the flow. I’d be willing to bet that he’s witnessed similar behavior from his co-worker many times. The fact that an officer would conduct himself like this, knowing the lights & cameras are rolling, is the subject for a whole other discussion.

Law enforcement is a tough job. In fact, it’s arguably becoming an almost impossible job when all you have to choose from is a marginal pool of applicants. But, the quality of the pledge is another discussion for another time and place.

[Tamara]

Secondly, as long as law enforcement must recruit from the human race, you're going to get a few like this guy. It's inevitable. But the problem isn't hiring knuckleheads - it's retaining them when you discover you have one onboard. You can tell by the mannerisms of the assisting officer that he's not comfortable with what's transpired here but he's just going with the flow. I’d be willing to bet that he’s witnessed similar behavior from his co-worker many times.

As with any other job, the problem is one of "corporate culture".

If a department or agency doesn't come down on the few bad actors, then the good guys tend to light out for greener pastures, and their vacancies get filled by guys who will tolerate the acting out. As time goes by, they come to realize that acting out is not only not punished, but actually tacitly condoned. Once a department's gone to seed, it can be tough to bring in a new broom to sweep clean.

[grimel]

Okay, just a little question, I showed this to a retired LA cop friend of mine and a couple others. He was listing off things he did wrong from the start of the video and really didn't freak out he had that dazed look, but, one of the other folks asked a question/made a comment. Considering the officer's size and switch tripped rage, will he be tested for steroids? He said it looked like a semi-controlled steroid rage. I haven't a clue, but, it did give some food for thought.

[41magfan]

Okay, just a little question, I showed this to a retired LA cop friend of mine and a couple others. He was listing off things he did wrong from the start of the video and really didn't freak out he had that dazed look, but, one of the other folks asked a question/made a comment. Considering the officer's size and switch tripped rage, will he be tested for steroids? He said it looked like a semi-controlled steroid rage. I haven't a clue, but, it did give some food for thought.


Steroids? While that's certainly possible, I don't think it's plausible. You have, however, just laid the groundwork for an excellent defense in any subsequent administrative or criminal action.

[Mitchell, Esq.]

So...

What is the likely briefing room conversation at Canton PD over this incident?

How are the rank and file officers likely reacting to the video and the possible shitstorm which may decend on their department over this tape?

How's it likely to effect interaction between the police & the people they interact with from the police side?

[ToddG]

How are the rank and file officers likely reacting to the video and the possible shitstorm which may decend on their department over this tape?

Don't know, but Tam gives us a pretty good view into the mind of the Canton City Council President:
http://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/2011/07/that-explains-rather-lot-actually.html

"Because as long as these laws permit people to carry weapons under the worst of circumstances and in the worst situations there are deaths waiting to happen, either police officers or citizens who think by arming themselves they're somehow safe <...> These laws are completely insane."

[Kyle Reese]

Don't know, but Tam gives us a pretty good view into the mind of the Canton City Council President:
http://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/2011/07/that-explains-rather-lot-actually.html

"Because as long as these laws permit people to carry weapons under the worst of circumstances and in the worst situations there are deaths waiting to happen, either police officers or citizens who think by arming themselves they're somehow safe <...> These laws are completely insane."

So basically "had this citizen not been so uppity and been exercising his 2A rights, the responding officer wouldn't have had to conduct himself in such a manner."

[Shellback]

VIDEO: Same officer goes psycho again. Story and video here. (http://www.cantonrep.com/news/x2014919089/Video-Officer-Harless-loses-his-temper-on-another-arrest)


“Don’t (expletive) move. Let me see your (expletive) hands,” Harless shouted. “I’ll kill every one of you (expletive). There’s a (expletive) gun in this car. You (expletive) move, I’ll shoot you in the head.”

Harless also threatened to send the suspects “to the grave” if they moved, adding, “I will shoot you in the face and I’ll go to sleep tonight.”

I realize the 2 situations are very different but this guy has a few screws loose.

[Mitchell, Esq.]

Please shoot someone...

Please shoot someone...

ANYONE...

Just do it after I get admitted to the Ohio Bar so I can take the contingency fee on that case...

(Yeah, I'm a parasite. What of it...)

[JM Campbell]

I hope the city/county has deep pockets for the next incident, Flat Spin that they need to get out of ASAP.

[Shellback]

3rd video found. Anybody else notice a pattern? http://www.newsnet5.com/dpp/news/local_news/investigations/exclusive-third-dash-cam-video-released-of-canton-police-officer-making-death-threats

[gtmtnbiker98]

Please shoot someone...

Please shoot someone...

ANYONE...

Just do it after I get admitted to the Ohio Bar so I can take the contingency fee on that case...

(Yeah, I'm a parasite. What of it...)Talk about a stupid post.

[LittleLebowski]

Talk about a stupid post.

It was a joke.

[gtmtnbiker98]

It was a joke.Must have missed the "fine print."

[Mitchell, Esq.]

Talk about a stupid post.

I'm completely comfortable taking advantage of a police officer's lack of control of his temper & conduct unbecoming, and a police department's criminal negligence in allowing someone with a known issue to be in a position of power interacting with the public...

Especially if it is an upside to me.

If that makes you uncomfortable, I'm sorry. That's your issue, not mine. If that cop was a friend of yours, get him some help, because when he shoots someone - even if his shooting was the most objectively reasonable thing in the history of the world - he's going down hard because he's displayed such a lack of self control on camera that will make anyone looking at the totality of the circumstances doubt his ability to make a proper decission under stress.

And I got no problem with that, or with the town employing him selling the mayor's kidneys to pay for it.

We'z run a constitutional fucking republic up in this here piece, and with that comes a certain lack of toleration for abusive authority figures with the power to search, seize, and at times, kill citizens in the performance of their duty acting like complete shitheads.

If law enforcement wants to act that way, then they deal with the fallout.

Hi.

I'm an attorney. I represent shitbirds, fuckheads and the ocassional good citizen. (In 5 years, it's actually happened twice...)

I'm part of the fallout.

I don't come about unless someone fucked up pretty big, but when they do, I linger around for years making everything toxic till the problem is cleaned up.

Don't want none? Don't start none, won't be none.

That applies to barfights, as well as abusive, illegal government-citizen interaction (terroristic threats by a police officer regarding your impending death & subsequent coverup thereof...) & conduct unbecoming in the performance of a police officer's duty.

Isn't a constitutional republic with a strong, independant judiciary a wonderful thing?

Not when you are an abusive asshole operating as part of the executive branch of government who runs into it, or is ran over by it.

Is that all large enough print for you, or do I need to use smaller words and larger letters?

[JodyH]

Can I get an Amen!

[jlw]

I'm completely comfortable taking advantage of a police officer's lack of control of his temper & conduct unbecoming, and a police department's criminal negligence in allowing someone with a known issue to be in a position of power interacting with the public...

Especially if it is an upside to me.

If that makes you uncomfortable, I'm sorry. That's your issue, not mine. If that cop was a friend of yours, get him some help, because when he shoots someone - even if his shooting was the most objectively reasonable thing in the history of the world - he's going down hard because he's displayed such a lack of self control on camera that will make anyone looking at the totality of the circumstances doubt his ability to make a proper decission under stress.

And I got no problem with that, or with the town employing him selling the mayor's kidneys to pay for it.

We'z run a constitutional fucking republic up in this here piece, and with that comes a certain lack of toleration for abusive authority figures with the power to search, seize, and at times, kill citizens in the performance of their duty acting like complete shitheads.

If law enforcement wants to act that way, then they deal with the fallout.

Hi.

I'm an attorney. I represent shitbirds, fuckheads and the ocassional good citizen. (In 5 years, it's actually happened twice...)

I'm part of the fallout.

I don't come about unless someone fucked up pretty big, but when they do, I linger around for years making everything toxic till the problem is cleaned up.

Don't want none? Don't start none, won't be none.

That applies to barfights, as well as abusive, illegal government-citizen interaction (terroristic threats by a police officer regarding your impending death & subsequent coverup thereof...) & conduct unbecoming in the performance of a police officer's duty.

Isn't a constitutional republic with a strong, independant judiciary a wonderful thing?

Not when you are an abusive asshole operating as part of the executive branch of government who runs into it, or is ran over by it.

Is that all large enough print for you, or do I need to use smaller words and larger letters?


I think the concern stems from the willingness (maybe hopefulness would be a better word) to see a citizen get shot unjustifiably.

[Tamara]

I think the concern stems from the willingness (maybe hopefulness would be a better word) to see a citizen get shot unjustifiably.
I took his post as tongue-in-cheek.

More importantly, regarding your use of the word "unjustifiably": Officer Harless could shoot somebody in the cleanest, most righteous self-defense shoot on the planet and, thanks to the YouTube footage he has, in his new career as Internet Video Superstar, so graciously provided a future lawyer, he will get his ass handed to him in a civil judgment that will turn the sky over Canton legal-pad yellow and raise property taxes in the city for generations to come.

(ProTip for those of you following this thread who are not in LE and therefore may not know better: If you think that you might EVER, POSSIBLY, BY ANY STRETCH OF THE IMAGINATION have to shoot somebody in self-defense or your line of work, don't stand in front of a goddam video camera and blather on about how much you want to do it and how well you'll sleep after covering up the evidence. For fuck's sake, there's just no defending that. Srsly.)

[jlw]

I took his post as tongue-in-cheek.

More importantly, regarding your use of the word "unjustifiably": Officer Harless could shoot somebody in the cleanest, most righteous self-defense shoot on the planet and, thanks to the YouTube footage he has, in his new career as Internet Video Superstar, so graciously provided a future lawyer, he will get his ass handed to him in a civil judgment that will turn the sky over Canton legal-pad yellow and raise property taxes in the city for generations to come.

(ProTip for those of you following this thread who are not in LE and therefore may not know better: If you think that you might EVER, POSSIBLY, BY ANY STRETCH OF THE IMAGINATION have to shoot somebody in self-defense or your line of work, don't stand in front of a goddam video camera and blather on about how much you want to do it and how well you'll sleep after covering up the evidence. For fuck's sake, there's just no defending that. Srsly.)

Best advice: the camera is always on.

[Josh Runkle]

Didn't notice if anyone posted this yet:

http://www.newsnet5.com/dpp/news/local_news/investigations/canton-police-officer-placed-on-leave-cleared-in-18-internal-complaints-3rd-dash-cam-video-released

[jlw]

Didn't notice if anyone posted this yet:

http://www.newsnet5.com/dpp/news/local_news/investigations/canton-police-officer-placed-on-leave-cleared-in-18-internal-complaints-3rd-dash-cam-video-released

The three incidents on video are damning, but, and I understand this isn't the best place to make this assertion, the number of cleared complaints against a peace officer in and of itself doesn't mean anything. The camera systems exonerate far more peace officers than it going the other way. Obviously, the guy in question here should be toast, but unfounded complaints are not uncommon.

[gtmtnbiker98]

I think the concern stems from the willingness (maybe hopefulness would be a better word) to see a citizen get shot unjustifiably.Chest thumping aside, yes, that is it. Opinions have been reinforced, thanks to this thread.

[Tamara]

Best advice: the camera is always on.

As a prosecutor friend of mine likes to tell the incoming academy classes he's invited to lecture "If you stay in this job as a career, with the rate technology's advancing, by the time you are done, you will most likely be wearing a camera that records everything you do for your entire shift. You should get in the habit from the start of conducting yourselves as though a jury and your sainted grandmother are watching everything you say. Do that, and the recording will be your friend."

[theblacknight]

I'm late to the party but, are dudes allowed to roll blacked out? Is that a state to state thing? I tend to speed a lot:p

oh and shouldnt the dude with the CCW just shut his mouth?

[Corvus]

Rolling black out is common around here but some do abuse it. I know someone that was written a reckless driving citation for getting too close to a cruiser that was running blacked out. The LE refused to admit he was running blacked out until the 3rd or 4th court date. Until he was finally convinced the driver was going to take it all the way to a trial he tried to stick it to the guy for his being careless. The LE was driving through an industrial park at shift change with his lights off and then went off on the driver for getting too close to his cruiser.

I don't see anything wrong with it if the LE has enough smarts to realize the good guys also can't see them and drive accordingly.

[Mitchell, Esq.]

http://www.cantonrep.com/carousel/x76455408/Citizen-in-Harless-video-gets-his-day-in-court

"I thought it would turn out this way,” is all William E. Bartlett had to say Wednesday afternoon after a judge threw out a concealed carry charge against him that took on a worldwide half-life when the arrest video went viral.

Bartlett’s ex-wife, Deborah Bartlett, stood by his side as he shyly shook hands with a gaggle of demonstrative concealed carry permit well-wishers. “I was behind him all the way,” she said quietly.

A conviction could have sent Bartlett to jail for up to six months.

With that charge out of the way, Bartlett pleaded no contest to a traffic violation — stopping in the roadway — and was fined $150 by Municipal Court Judge Stephen Belden.

Canton police arrested Bartlett, 52, after finding him with a concealed handgun during an early morning incident June 8 on Newton Avenue NW.

The case gained notoriety after Ohioans for Concealed Carry (OCC) posted a police cruiser video of patrolman Daniel Harless berating and threatening Bartlett during the arrest. The video went viral, with more than 800,000 views to date on YouTube.

THE TRIAL

Jurors were shown some of the controversial arrest video but not the portions in which Harless threatened to “cave in” Bartlett’s head and later to execute him for being stupid.

Belden ruled that those portions of the video should not be shown to the jury.

The trial was contentious with Assistant City Prosecutor Jennifer Fitzsimmons and defense attorney Timothy E. Bellew of Girard trading objections and requesting sidebar consultations with Belden.

Fitzsimmons did not call Harless as a witness before resting the state’s case early Wednesday afternoon.

However, Harless’ partner that June night was Patrolman Mark Diels. He was called to testify while the jury watched portions of the video from the 1:38 a.m. traffic stop.

Fitzsimmons elicited repeated responses from Diels that he never heard Bartlett say he had a concealed carry permit and that he was close enough to him not to have missed such a statement.

ONE OFFICER’S VERSION

The cruiser video showed Diels addressing his attention to a passenger in the back seat of the car driven by Bartlett. He said he saw the passenger sliding across the seat and opening the door. Diels said the passenger, not Bartlett, was the clear and present danger at the moment. He handcuffed the passenger and put him in the cruiser, then returned to search the back seat of Bartlett’s car for possible weapons or contraband.

“I was in the back seat,” Diels testified. “He could have told me.”

“I have a gun!” shouted defense attorney Bellew. “Is that the way he should have told you?”

Even the portions of the video the jury did view revealed that within the space of a few minutes, Harless’ verbal assault on Bartlett ramped up exponentially, despite Bartlett’s repeated attempts to inform the officer he was armed.

After the state finished its case, the defense argued that the prosecutor did not meet its legal burden for the weapons charge and asked the judge to throw it out before the defense took its turn. Belden agreed.

What the jury didn’t see was Harless raging, “As soon as I felt your gun, I should have took two steps back, pulled my Glock 40 and just put 10 bullets in your ass and let you drop. And I wouldn’t have lost any sleep. Do you understand me?”

“Yes, sir, I do,” Bartlett replied, still sounding calm.

Harless was put on administrative leave in June and later went on medical leave. A disciplinary hearing is set for Dec. 1 regarding his actions with Bartlett and two other traffic stops.

REACTION

“I’ll tell you one thing, Chief (Dean) McKimm and the rest should have known about Harless’ PTSD (post-traumatic stress disorder) issues long before this,” said Ohioans for Concealed Carry member Tim Singo of Perry Township who joined nearly 30 others to watch the proceedings.

Jeff Garvas of Macedonia, the group’s president and founder (ohioccw.org), was among those on hand. Garvas said he was contacted by Bartlett’s attorney, an OCC member. Garvas edited the police video Bellew obtained and posted it on YouTube.

“I think that anyone that watched that video will come to the same conclusion that no law was broken,” he said. “But his civil rights were violated.”

___________________________________

Boo-ya!

[Coyotesfan97]

Rolling black out is common around here but some do abuse it. I know someone that was written a reckless driving citation for getting too close to a cruiser that was running blacked out. The LE refused to admit he was running blacked out until the 3rd or 4th court date. Until he was finally convinced the driver was going to take it all the way to a trial he tried to stick it to the guy for his being careless. The LE was driving through an industrial park at shift change with his lights off and then went off on the driver for getting too close to his cruiser.

I don't see anything wrong with it if the LE has enough smarts to realize the good guys also can't see them and drive accordingly.

If I'm cruising dark it's pretty easy to pull over and let people go by. Having headlights backlighting you defeats the whole purpose.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[KeeFus]

Thread resurrection: He's been fired (http://www.cantonrep.com/newsnow/x638339306/Daniel-Harless-fired-from-Canton-police-force) and appealing that decision.

[rjohnson4405]

It is unfortunate that Officer Harless suffers from PTSD (assuming that is the truth), however, I believe firing him was the correct action.

On top of that, how did his partner who was with him when he was acting like this not speak up and get him help?

I find it hard to believe that nobody said something about how out of control this guy was. Is it just cops being "loyal" to each other? Canton PD needs to do some house cleaning it seems like.

[TCinVA]

PTSD or not...when one starts threatening to kill members of the public on the side of the road it really doesn't matter exactly why they're doing it. They're not fit for the road anymore.

[Nephrology]

PTSD or not...when one starts threatening to kill members of the public on the side of the road it really doesn't matter exactly why they're doing it. They're not fit for the road anymore.

Yeah, that really crosses a very special line that does not come with any exceptions. I do sympathize with his condition, but as an adult and a professional if you reach that point you need to seek help and recognize that it is your obligation to do so as a responsible enforcer of the law.

[ford.304]

Good on the Canton police department for doing the right thing, even if it did require outside pressure to get it done. Always makes me happy when my cynicism is wrong.

[Shellback]

Update (http://m.cantonrep.com/repository/db_/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=zaob2FvI&full=true#display)

The city police officer fired for a pattern of verbal abuse and making threats is trying to get his job back.

Patrolman Daniel Harless is proceeding with the arbitration process, said Kristen Bates Aylward, an assistant city law director.

[TCinVA]

It's not unusual for a .gov employee who gets canned...even for cause...to try and fight the decision like this. It goes with the territory. The Supreme Court held that an action like firing a government employee is a government "taking" action, and that involves due process. Thus the need for administrative hearings and appeals processes. Throw in a healthy dose of union negotiated procedures on top of all that and you have situations where getting rid of somebody can take months, even if they're caught doing some truly ridiculous things.

[Shellback]

TC - I've seen many examples of government employees being rehired under arbitration when in reality they should've been put behind bars. Multiple incidents on video threatening to execute the people who he's sworn to protect is sufficient enough evidence for me that he should never be allowed to wear a badge again.

[TCinVA]

TC - I've seen many examples of government employees being rehired under arbitration when in reality they should've been put behind bars. Multiple incidents on video threatening to execute the people who he's sworn to protect is sufficient enough evidence for me that he should never be allowed to wear a badge again.

No arguments here...but whenever .gov is involved it's rarely as simple as what should be.

[NickA]

Looks like Officer Friendly may be getting his job back:

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/8630

And the full article :
http://m.cantonrep.com/repository/pm_29533/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=LUTXfXe9

[Shellback]

Looks like Officer Friendly may be getting his job back:

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/8630

And the full article :
http://m.cantonrep.com/repository/pm_29533/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=LUTXfXe9

I'm disgusted.

[NETim]

“Given the circumstances of that night and the mental status of (Harless), it must be concluded his conduct was defensible,” Graham wrote, referring to the Newton Avenue stop. “The employer lacked just cause to discharge him.”


<SARCASM>This renews my faith in the system. </SARCASM>




:mad:

[ford.304]

Good on the Canton police department for doing the right thing, even if it did require outside pressure to get it done. Always makes me happy when my cynicism is wrong.

I should know better than to bet against my natural cynicism :(

[Alaskapopo]

First time poster long time watcher. I'm not sure if this is the proper place for this video but I think it does really illustrate what one should NOT do as a LEO. My favorite quote by the lead officer "My partner has my back and will lie in a report so I can commit cold blooded murder, execution style."

Anyway video is here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kassP7zI0qc&feature=youtu.be

Discussion on OFCC's web forum is here http://ohioccwforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=54153

I'll be honest I did not finish the video. The officer starts out rude right off the bat. From what I saw in the begining if this was one of our officers he would not be around long. Sorry I did not watch all 20 minutes. Guys like this give us all a bad name.
pat

[Alaskapopo]

The officer seems to have been looking for an excuse to get aggressive. This makes me very glad for video recording devices for LEOs.

Good cops love having recorders and video bad cops hate them. We require officers to record all contacts in an official capacity. (traffic stops etc) It has saved more officers than its hurt. The ones it hurt deserved what they got. Plus video is also a great training tool. When I am FTO'ing I use it to show the recruit what they did and how they could have done it better. We are looking at getting body worn video cameras now.
Pat

[fixer]

I'm disgusted.

yeah...me too especially on this:

"He has been receiving workers’ compensation and has applied for a disability retirement pension."

The new "killing it" in the USA.

[EKDave19]

http://m.cantonrep.com/repository/pm_29533/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=LUTXfXe9&rwthr=0

First time poster and this video got me fired up. I only saw this recently and wanted to see where the case ended up and this is what I found. Looks like there's a good chance he could get his job back if he could get medical clearance.

His attorney says: “What needs to be understood is (there’s) no rule that says an officer (cannot) or should not make threats,” he said. “It’s not nice for a police officer to threaten to shoot somebody, (but) sometimes it’s ultimately the only thing that prevents you from doing it.”

Does this mean I can go and say I'm going to pull my Glock .40 to anyone's head let alone a cop and get away with it? No chance. All I'm saying is that cops should be held at the same if not higher standard than us normal citizens.

[Alaskapopo]

http://m.cantonrep.com/repository/pm_29533/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=LUTXfXe9&rwthr=0

First time poster and this video got me fired up. I only saw this recently and wanted to see where the case ended up and this is what I found. Looks like there's a good chance he could get his job back if he could get medical clearance.

His attorney says: “What needs to be understood is (there’s) no rule that says an officer (cannot) or should not make threats,” he said. “It’s not nice for a police officer to threaten to shoot somebody, (but) sometimes it’s ultimately the only thing that prevents you from doing it.”

Does this mean I can go and say I'm going to pull my Glock .40 to anyone's head let alone a cop and get away with it? No chance. All I'm saying is that cops should be held at the same if not higher standard than us normal citizens.

There is a time and a place for threats but this was not the time. I had a suspect who ran from another officer. We had no idea if he was armed. I found him hiding under a building (tall enough of an area to walk around hunched. He had his hands hidden from my view. I told him show me your hands once, then twice with no reponse. I then said show me your Fucking hands and that got his attention. If someone is not complying I can see using profanity and threats if the situation could resort with lethal force. There is nothing wrong with threatening force if the situation justifies it. The one in the video did not and he deserves to lose his job.
pat

[TGS]

There is a time and a place for threats but this was not the time. I had a suspect who ran from another officer. We had no idea if he was armed. I found him hiding under a building (tall enough of an area to walk around hunched. He had his hands hidden from my view. I told him show me your hands once, then twice with no reponse. I then said show me your Fucking hands and that got his attention. If someone is not complying I can see using profanity and threats if the situation could resort with lethal force. There is nothing wrong with threatening force if the situation justifies it. The one in the video did not and he deserves to lose his job.
pat

Not to mention there's a huge difference between threatening to blow someones head off because they won't comply, and threatening to execute someone because you're a blatant moron and not paying attention to anything you're doing or what anyone is trying to say.

[Tamara]

The city attorney is probably drinking heavily right now.

That bullet-headed cretin is a seven-figure settlement looking for a place to happen.

[gtmtnbiker98]

Well, he should be charged with Aggravated Menacing, since he threatened serious bodily harm and he had the means to inflict the harm. Disorderly Conduct is also a fitting charge, since this would be the two charges levied against the victim in this case. Fifth and Fourteenth Amendment implications here, but then again, this is the new 'Merica.

[SeriousStudent]

The city attorney is probably drinking heavily right now.

That bullet-headed cretin is a seven-figure settlement looking for a place to happen.

Oh, so very this.

And wait until they play all the video clips to the jury, to establish a pattern of behavior. Wowsers, I'd hate to be paying property taxes there.

[Alaskapopo]

I imagine if does get his job back that he will be pushed into a desk position where he can't do any more harm. I know of a Trooper they did that with. Put him in headquarters until he could not stand it anymore and quit.
pat