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Jared
10-03-2014, 04:01 PM
Okay, I'm looking for a drill or set of drills that runs about 50-60 rounds per session that I can use to build my carbine fundamentals. Something kind of like doing some Bill Drills, 2R2's and El-Presidente's for a pistol, but for an AR. I have my own range set up, and can shoot out to about 125 yards. 50-60 rounds 2-4 times a month is about all I'm able to invest in carbine training if I'm going to continue to work on improving my pistol shooting and other stuff.

I'm also figuring on working the carbine stuff as defensive only, so I really don't need a full on 3 Gun Competition program. My competitive shooting plate is pretty full working on USPSA.

So, I'd love to hear drills, start positions for them, positions they're shot from (standing, sitting, kneeling, prone, etc) accuracy goals and PAR times, and distances.

Thanks for any advice.

NickDrak
10-03-2014, 04:12 PM
The VTAC 1/2 & 1/2 drill would be one of the drills I would add to your sessions: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-oYRn_llgo

Jay Cunningham
10-03-2014, 04:18 PM
The 1/2 & 1/2 is a great carbine drill, but I don't think I'd recommend it within the context of the above parameters.

Jay Cunningham
10-03-2014, 04:22 PM
Okay, I'm looking for a drill or set of drills that runs about 50-60 rounds per session that I can use to build my carbine fundamentals.


50-60 rounds 2-4 times a month is about all I'm able to invest in carbine training if I'm going to continue to work on improving my pistol shooting and other stuff.


I'm also figuring on working the carbine stuff as defensive only, so I really don't need a full on 3 Gun Competition program. My competitive shooting plate is pretty full working on USPSA.


Perhaps a discussion of what you realistically feel your defensive uses of your carbine may look like can lead to more specific advice on some practice.

Jared
10-03-2014, 04:58 PM
Perhaps a discussion of what you realistically feel your defensive uses of your carbine may look like can lead to more specific advice on some practice.


Pretty much entirely in-home. I won't be having it around in the truck with me or anything like that, and I'm a private citizen, non-LE not military. I've got a Colt 6520 that I swapped out the carry handle upper for a flat-top, added a rail, VFG, light, Aimpoint, sling, and flip up Troy Rear.

The only realistic scenario I can see myself employing the carbine would be in the event of home invasion. So I guess that further narrows "defensive use" down to "home defensive use." Hope this helps to clarify my OP, which is a bit vague.

John Hearne
10-03-2014, 05:16 PM
Paul Howe's rifle standards are 34 rds of rifle and one pistol round. If you shot the standards and then used your remaining rounds to practice your "no go's" you'd be pretty good. When you pass the standards reliably, use a target with a smaller hit zone.

Also, what would the carbine version of "the test" be? 8 rds in 10 seconds at 50 yards on a bullseye?

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LittleLebowski
10-03-2014, 05:36 PM
Also, what would the carbine version of "the test" be? 8 rds in 10 seconds at 50 yards on a bullseye?


I'm liking the sound of this.

Jay Cunningham
10-03-2014, 05:46 PM
Well, first we'd need to define what The Test actually tests, then develop an analogy for carbine.

I've always considered The Test as a test of trigger control. Trigger control with a pistol is a function of strong, proper grip and aggressive (committed), controlled trigger manipulation.

The analogy with a carbine IMO is neither the actual grip on the pistol grip nor the actual trigger manipulation, but the strength and neutrality of the mount.

Jay Cunningham
10-03-2014, 05:59 PM
Upon reflection, I think the middle stage of the 1/2 & 1/2 Drill (10 rounds in 5 seconds at 10 yards from the ready) is a pretty good representation of The Test. The 20 yard stage doesn't require too much in the way of a good mount while the 5 yard stage requires people to set themselves into a super tense and aggressive mount that may not be natural or easily repeatable.

Edited to add: I think clean in the upper 3/4 of a USPSA A Zone is reasonable.

John Hearne
10-03-2014, 06:03 PM
To clarify, I really like the Hackathorn single stack version of The Test - draw and fire 8 rounds in 10 seconds, 90% passes (doesn't have to be all in the black but that's nice). To me it test your ability to present you pistol in a reasonable time frame and deliver robustly accurate hits in a moderate time frame.

Jared
10-04-2014, 06:28 AM
Thanks guys!

Now that I've got some good suggestions, what if, say, once the middle part of the 1/2 and 1/2 was pretty much a "pass on demand" for me, I started running it with 3 targets? Say 3 shots on the left, 4 in the middle, 3 on the right for ten shots. Would that be a reasonable "next step up" on the ladder?

John Hearne
10-04-2014, 07:53 AM
As far as "best practices for practice" it is important to vary your practice. Even if you have a set of drills, randomizing them will make you a better shooter. If you have one routine from which you never waiver, you just get good at that routine.

I do like to shoot a quick assessment at the start of practice. For instance, I've been starting my pistol work with 8 rounds of The Test and go from there. The FAST could work as well. Just something low round count and quick.

Finally, most of the improvement you can get can be done through dry practice.

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NickDrak
10-04-2014, 08:15 AM
Personally I wouldn't get to wrapped up in creating "realistic" drills at this point. I would work on drills that focus on a combination of individual skills like controlling the gun during varying cadence drills, and manipulating the gun.

I'd still recommend the 1/2&1/2 drill and set it up so you are required to do a bolt lock reload at the end of each string of fire.

I would also do a 3-Reload-3 drill and don't just do it to work on the reload portion of the drill. Make it a focus of every required skill set contained within the drill and make sure you are performing everything "Perfectly": Presentation, Height over bore off-set, controlling the gun during recoil, accuracy/round accountability, etc, etc. Set it up at 7yds or so which will let you run the gun pretty aggressively as your individual skills improve, but start off slow and deliberate until you "get it".

I would consider something like the RedBack One carbine standards and run it as a baseline. You can then work on each individual skill and track your improvements as you progress.

Jared
10-04-2014, 10:22 AM
As far as "best practices for practice" it is important to vary your practice. Even if you have a set of drills, randomizing them will make you a better shooter. If you have one routine from which you never waiver, you just get good at that routine.

I do like to shoot a quick assessment at the start of practice. For instance, I've been starting my pistol work with 8 rounds of The Test and go from there. The FAST could work as well. Just something low round count and quick.

Finally, most of the improvement you can get can be done through dry practice.

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Understood. I usually start pistol practice with a couple 25 yard bill drills, or a version of The Test (10 shots, 10 yarsa, 8 second PAR and holstered) and go from there. I've got a pretty solid dry and live fire handgun program. Translating it to the carbine, while keeping in mind that I'm just not willing to devote as much time to the carbine has been somewhat sticky for me.

Vinh
10-04-2014, 10:27 PM
My memory may be fuzzy, but for me the Test has always been 10 rounds in 10 seconds at 10 yards from the draw with a score of 100. 1911 users should use a 10 round magazine (even from concealment).

To extrapolate carbine drills from pistol drills, simply double the distance. 10 rounds in 10 seconds at 20 yards is pretty much one component of the 1/2 & 1/2. Keep it all in the black at a bare minimum, preferably 100 points. Do it from the high ready if the low ready is too easy.

Jay Cunningham
10-04-2014, 11:37 PM
Personally I wouldn't get to wrapped up in creating "realistic" drills at this point. I would work on drills that focus on a combination of individual skills like controlling the gun during varying cadence drills, and manipulating the gun.

There's a difference between "realistic drills" and a "realistic use of one's time and ammunition". The OP gave some rather strict parameters to work within.

Jay Cunningham
10-04-2014, 11:55 PM
Jared, perhaps working in an offset accountability drill would be worthwhile given your defined parameters.

I use a five dot array of 3" dots, and work 5 rounds on each dot from 3 yards back to 25 yards for a total of 25 rounds.

It's important to know your holdover with an AR-15.

Jared
10-05-2014, 06:12 AM
Jared, perhaps working in an offset accountability drill would be worthwhile given your defined parameters.

I use a five dot array of 3" dots, and work 5 rounds on each dot from 3 yards back to 25 yards for a total of 25 rounds.

It's important to know your holdover with an AR-15.

I'll certainly give it a shot. I'm taking notes from all these suggestions, and I'm more than willing to vary things up a good bit.

My parameters are rather restrictive, I realize. There is a reason for that, primarily that I spend a good deal of time on handgun practice and I don't want to take even more time away from my other obligations in life to have GM level carbine skills. I have a very supportive wife when it comes to my USPSA addiction, and I also try to incorporate drills for concealed carry and home defense situations. I don't wanna push her patience by adding another half hour a day for carbine work.

Jay Cunningham
10-05-2014, 07:06 AM
My parameters are rather restrictive, I realize. There is a reason for that, primarily that I spend a good deal of time on handgun practice and I don't want to take even more time away from my other obligations in life to have GM level carbine skills. I have a very supportive wife when it comes to my USPSA addiction, and I also try to incorporate drills for concealed carry and home defense situations. I don't wanna push her patience by adding another half hour a day for carbine work.

Yep, I'm tracking.

NickDrak
10-07-2014, 11:42 AM
There's a difference between "realistic drills" and a "realistic use of one's time and ammunition". The OP gave some rather strict parameters to work within.

Not knowing the OP's overall skill level with a carbine or what his definition of "Home defense" specifically is, it is kinda of difficult to define those parameters.

While many people envision home defense being something that only occurs inside of an average sized residential bedroom or hallway, that certainly isn't ways the case. If the OP lives in a rural area with clear line of sight out to 100+ yards from his bedroom window "Home defense" might mean something completely different to the OP than it does to you or me.

Jay Cunningham
10-07-2014, 01:07 PM
I'm attempting to work within the OP's parameters whereas you're suggesting redefining the OP's parameters.

NickDrak
10-07-2014, 03:24 PM
I'm trying to get a clearer picture of the OP's skill level with the carbine and what his definition of home defense is in relation to his specific confines so we can all give better suggestions on drills specific to the OP's needs.

Jared
10-10-2014, 04:01 PM
NickDrak,

My overall skill level with a carbine is basically this:

I can zero an AR properly and hit what I aim at in slow fire type stuff. Just as an example, a USPSA A-zone at 50 yards off-hand is a snap for me.

I was in this boat a couple years ago with the pistol, and didn't know where to start as far as incorporating time into the equation. "Gamer" materials helped de-mystify that process, and I started with 7 yard Bill Drills, then 2R2, then on to El Presidente, and on and on and on.

My carbine mission is a bit different. Whereas I compete on the reg with the pistol and am very interested in developing GM level handgun shooting skills, with the carbine, it's more of a "build enough skill where it's adequate for my home defense plan" type of thing. By home defense, since I have no children to secure in the event of an invasion, my wife and I can hunker down in the bedroom, call 911, and wait for responding LE unless they decide to come in after US. They are welcome to the TV or whatever they want to haul out as long as they do not enter the bedroom and attempt to physically harm us. Should it come to that, where I'm basically forced to shoot to protect us from death or great bodily harm, I want to have enough skill to come out on top.

I realize I didn't really explain all of this fully in my OP, I was trying to keep the post brief enough that it didn't become a novel.

Jared
10-10-2014, 04:12 PM
One last thought,

One of the reasons I mentioned running the middle section of the 1/2 and 1/2 with three targets in a 3 shot, 4 shot, 3 shot format was to get some transition work in addition to the "mount and control the recoil" tested by the single target.

I do this some with the handgun version of The Test. Draw, 3 shots on left, 4 on middle, 3 on right. 8 second PAR, all hits in black to pass. I vary the engagement order, maybe 3 runs left to right, 3 starting in the middle, then 3 starting on the right. It's become a favorite drill of mine, even though it's far enough from the original procedure for The Test that it does test different skills.

Jay Cunningham
10-10-2014, 04:43 PM
Look up the 1-5 Drill.

Jared
10-10-2014, 04:50 PM
Look up the 1-5 Drill.


Gotcha.

rob_s
10-11-2014, 08:41 AM
Stage 2 and 3 of the IDPA classifier, with some mild modification/personalization is a good 60-round set of drills. I'd stretch the 10 yard line to 15 and the 20 to 25, and require head-shots at certain strings. If you don't believe in "cover" you can substitute lateral transitions.

http://www.cbshooters.com/idpa/files/IDPA_Classifier_Match_Scoring_and_Layout.pdf

Alpha Sierra
10-11-2014, 10:37 AM
By home defense, since I have no children to secure in the event of an invasion, my wife and I can hunker down in the bedroom, call 911, and wait for responding LE unless they decide to come in after US.

How big is your bedroom? How big can a bedroom possibly be in a typical, middle to upper middle class home? How many points of entry are there to it? My bet is just one.

Jesus, with an AR and 30 rounds on board you need to know nothing more than your sight offset (since this will be very up close and personal) and how to hammer someone's chest inside of 5 - 7 yards as fast as humanly possible. Maybe work on some lateral target transitions in case two come through the door instead of one.

This ain't rocket science

Drang
10-11-2014, 01:48 PM
How big is your bedroom? How big can a bedroom possibly be in a typical, middle to upper middle class home? How many points of entry are there to it? My bet is just one.

We've toured a few McMansions just for fun, a master suite in newer construction can run as large as our first house, and may in fact have multiple entrances. ANd a master bathroom as big as normal bedrooms. And walk-in closets, yes, plural, I was getting smacked for speculating out loud about turning one into a gun vault. :cool: One we saw had a balcony to sit on in the morning and enjoy your coffee, had a nice view of the last drive-in theater in western Washington...

Not that you're wrong about the tactical aspects of hunkering down in the master bedroom, calling 911, and waiting with an AR or two.

rob_s
10-11-2014, 02:29 PM
How big is your bedroom? How big can a bedroom possibly be in a typical, middle to upper middle class home? How many points of entry are there to it? My bet is just one.

Jesus, with an AR and 30 rounds on board you need to know nothing more than your sight offset (since this will be very up close and personal) and how to hammer someone's chest inside of 5 - 7 yards as fast as humanly possible. Maybe work on some lateral target transitions in case two come through the door instead of one.

This ain't rocket science

Is a home invasion where one might employ an AR MORE or LESS likely than an armed confrontation where one might use a handgun outside the home?

Jared
10-11-2014, 04:47 PM
How big is your bedroom? How big can a bedroom possibly be in a typical, middle to upper middle class home? How many points of entry are there to it? My bet is just one.

Jesus, with an AR and 30 rounds on board you need to know nothing more than your sight offset (since this will be very up close and personal) and how to hammer someone's chest inside of 5 - 7 yards as fast as humanly possible. Maybe work on some lateral target transitions in case two come through the door instead of one.

This ain't rocket science


No, it isn't rocket science. I probably would never need the rifle for defense, and should I need it, your bare minimum would likely suffice. I like to do more than the bare minimum. I'm trying to find a happy medium between bare minimum and 3 Gun Nation Pro Series champion here.

Kevin B.
10-11-2014, 04:58 PM
Paul Howe's rifle standards are 34 rds of rifle and one pistol round. If you shot the standards and then used your remaining rounds to practice your "no go's" you'd be pretty good. When you pass the standards reliably, use a target with a smaller hit zone.

I would second this recommendation. You can develop a fairly comprehensive skill set by shooting the standards.

Alpha Sierra
10-11-2014, 05:51 PM
No, it isn't rocket science. I probably would never need the rifle for defense, and should I need it, your bare minimum would likely suffice. I like to do more than the bare minimum. I'm trying to find a happy medium between bare minimum and 3 Gun Nation Pro Series champion here.

You asked for something tailored to your situation.

John Hearne
10-11-2014, 07:35 PM
The CSAT rifle standards have 10 rds beyond 50 yds - 5 at 100 prone and 5 at 75 yards kneeling. If you exclude them, that's just 24 rifle rounds and a pistol round which is a pretty low round count. Of course, with the two more difficult stages removed, passing all of them.then becomes an expectation.

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Jared
10-12-2014, 06:06 AM
The CSAT rifle standards have 10 rds beyond 50 yds - 5 at 100 prone and 5 at 75 yards kneeling. If you exclude them, that's just 24 rifle rounds and a pistol round which is a pretty low round count. Of course, with the two more difficult stages removed, passing all of them.then becomes an expectation.

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Thanks. I'll probably run the full CSAT at some point, it looks like a good test once I get a smidge further up the skill ladder.

John Hearne
06-04-2015, 07:47 AM
Wasn't sure whether to start or another thread or tack on to this one but....

I was at the range spending a little time with my carbine. It was a very cold session for me but I decided to play around with a couple of drills.

Firstly, I shot two versions of "The Test." Both were at 50 yards on a 10 second par. The first version was 10 rounds and the second was 8 rounds both from low ready. If I had to guess, the 10 rounds is probably the better standard. I shot the 8 round version at the end of my range session (when I was warmed up) and I was well under par. If I was actually tuned up and a good carbine shooter, the 10 rounds in 10 seconds at a 90% level would indicate a solid mastery of the basics but I'd be pretty happy with 8 rounds. 8 and 10 rounds could be a basic and advanced standard.

My other question about this standard is the target. I used the FBI Bullseye which includes a 7 ring. If the 7 ring is scored then the drill is a lot easier. I can't remember whether Ken uses the 7 ring when demanding 90% on his version. If you score the 7 ring then 90% is pretty reachable.

I also shot Tom Given's Casino drill at 25 yards using the LE Targets version of the target (slightly smaller shapes - ~6" circle, square, and triangle). I was loaded 7, 7, & 7 and quickly figured out that with a carbine this was all about your ability to reload quickly. With a one second penalty for a miss, I never got near the 21 second needed to pass the pistol version of the drill. What I figured out was that at 25 yards and with the smaller targets it was hard to get locked in and bang in the hits like I can with the pistol. The best adjusted score I could pull off was a 30.73.

Since I'm stingy with ammunition, I came up with the 15 in 15 at 15. I was loaded 5, 5, and 5 at 15 yards. I started on the 1 and worked my way to the 5. With the same one second penalty for a miss, my best was 13.92.

I didn't shoot it this way but, this drill would work if you started at the 6 and work down to 3. That would be a bit easier since you'd only have three targets to engage but the reloads would interrupt every engagement. I'll try it next time I go the range which hopefully won't be with as much of a break as this one was.

Dropkick
06-04-2015, 09:30 AM
Cool findings! Reminds me that I need to drag my AR out to the range and confirm the zero and run a couple simple drills to make sure I didn't forget how the thing works. :)