Utility of a WML for Concealed Carry [Archive]

joshs

10-02-2014, 07:38 PM

What is the utility of a WML on a carry pistol?

I purchased a Raven light bearing holster when they first came out with the thought that having a light on my pistol was better than not having a light on my pistol. When I made the switch to AIWB, I felt the benefits outweighed the loss of the WML. As I've done more lowlight training, especially the lowlight class Todd taught a few years ago using the NRA's turning target system, I've thought a lot more about when I would actually use a WML on a carry gun. At the NRA low light class, the turning target system was used with a short exposure to give the shooter just enough time to ID and shoot (if needed). ID was required before drawing, and drawing when faced with a non-threat was considered a failure. That class cemented my belief that it was better to just be really good at SHO shooting and use a handheld light since I'd likely already have the light in my weak hand.

For me, the WML makes a lot of sense at home because I might need to be able to go pick up a toddler while using the light and/or shooting. I also have a lot less problems with pointing a gun at someone who is in my house in the middle of the night when they shouldn't be compared to pointing or even drawing a gun in public before I'm positively sure it's necessary, which would seem to require a handheld, if a light is needed at all.

TR675

10-02-2014, 07:56 PM

Re: for a civvy: to my mind, illuminating a previously identified *known* threat which has already justified the use of lethal force while maintaining a two handed grip on the gun. Hard for me to imagine another situation where it would be appropriate. My imagination may be failing me, but I think that using the pointy end of a gun for target/threat ID - at least outside the home - is just asking for a felony beef.

IOW, I think the utility is not much, especially for the extra bulk and weight they bring to the table.

LittleLebowski

10-02-2014, 07:58 PM

I've just started this experiment myself after reaching too many times for the wife's WML equipped home defense handgun at night when hearing the dog bark.

I put my money where my mouth was and ordered an IWB from JM Custom for my Gen4 17 with an X200. Today was that happy day when the holster arrived and I am very pleased so far.

I can't get away from the utility of the WML. Great minds think alike.

Sheep Have Wool

10-02-2014, 09:04 PM

I know nyeti runs a WML on his VP9 using a holster made for it (http://hardwiredtacticalshooting.com/46-vp9-holsters).

Dropkick

10-02-2014, 09:29 PM

As I've done more lowlight training, especially the lowlight class Todd taught a few years ago using the NRA's turning target system, I've thought a lot more about when I would actually use a WML on a carry gun. At the NRA low light class, the turning target system was used with a short exposure to give the shooter just enough time to ID and shoot (if needed). ID was required before drawing, and drawing when faced with a non-threat was considered a failure. That class cemented my belief that it was better to just be really good at SHO shooting and use a handheld light since I'd likely already have the light in my weak hand.

I was at that training session that Todd did too, and I walked away with the same belief as you. Sometimes in the dark, a bright white light can change peoples' perception and intentions really quickly, without the need to introduce a firearm into the mix.

As for a WML at home, I'd love to get my hands on a used Surefire or Streamlight and put it to the test on the range and in Force on Force training. But then again, I've got a rifle with a light for things like that.

Chuck Haggard

10-02-2014, 09:40 PM

Eli

10-02-2014, 10:25 PM

My carry gun wears an Inforce APL. I'm not going to point a gun at someone that I'm unsure of whether or not they're a threat (I also EDC a handheld), but there are a few situations I can imagine where you know someone/thing is a threat, but it isn't light enough to properly see your sights. I live in a mostly rural area (not a lot of ambient/street lights) and am generally a night owl, not a good recipe for a clear sight picture. I've taken a couple of low light classes and have done enough low light practice to know that I'm much better off utilizing a WML with both hands on the gun, than I am SHO and a handheld.

Something I need to work on, yes....but still the fact of the matter.

BobM

10-02-2014, 10:28 PM

I bought a Raven early on when I was issued an M&P40/TLR. I don't think having the light on a CCW gun is that big a deal one way or the other but it's usually convenient for me for my duty gun to be my off duty gun too. If I had another M&P40 I might carry it off duty w/o light.

GJM

10-02-2014, 10:47 PM

A handgun with a Surefire light and a DG switch comes in very handy for recreating at night with a dog, where one of your hands may be holding a leash.

Default.mp3

10-02-2014, 10:52 PM

I've never carried my gun without a WML, so perhaps I don't know what I'm missing, but I've been able to conceal my P30LS with X400U without any real issues when using AIWB, even though I've a fairly slight frame (5'8", ~140 lbs.); multiple instructors have expressed mild amazement at this feat, so I guess it's not as easy as I had originally thought it was. My plan has always been to simply drop my hand held to shoot two handed (I have it on a lanyard, so I don't actually lose the light); Hell, dropping the light makes it easier for me to clear my cover garment (generally will be a t-shirt), since my weak hand is now entirely free. Thus, in my limited experience, the only real negative is cost, as the bulk and weight is something I've never had a problem with (which, again, is probably because I've never known anything else).

There's also the mild bonus of having a stand-off device that would prevent the gun from being pushed out of battery in a contact shot. Then there's the whole utility of lasers thing, but I suppose that's technically not a WML issue.

Up1911Fan

10-02-2014, 10:59 PM

A handgun with a Surefire light and a DG switch comes in very handy for recreating at night with a dog, where one of your hands may be holding a leash.
This is my primary use for a WML. I spend a lot of time outdoors with my dog's and having a leash in one hand limits your ability to use a handheld (which I always have on me).

LittleLebowski

10-03-2014, 06:03 AM

This is an experiment of mine that is ongoing. So far, the comfort is far better than I thought it would be but the first time I got into a vehicle and sat down was a shock compared to AIWB.

GJM

10-03-2014, 08:04 AM

For me, it seems like the utility of a WML is opposite between long guns and handguns.

With a long gun, there is almost no reason not to have a WML on or available. Little change in profile, pretty easy to activate, no holster issue, etc. With the handgun, for me the WML use is very specialized and uncommon. Definite compromises with size, comfort and holsters.

For field/nocturnal use, a nice feature of my new 7000 series Safariland ALS holster, is the same holster works with and without a light, with and without a DG switch, simplifying planning. Of course it isn't a Fairfax County concealment holster.

A good laser sure is nice in low light conditions.

LittleLebowski

10-03-2014, 08:17 AM

Of course it isn't a Fairfax County concealment holster.

I'm one county over but you hit the nail on the head. This is an experiment of mine but so far it looks good. For those with small children, a WML equipped handgun in a bedside safe is much more feasible than a long gun with an WML.

Tamara

10-03-2014, 09:07 AM

If it's something as small and easy to add as the CT trigger guard units than maybe.

It adds virtually no bulk to the gun, and I stubbornly remain unconvinced of the downsides of being able to better see what I am shooting at. ;)

Chuck Haggard

10-03-2014, 09:39 AM

It adds virtually no bulk to the gun, and I stubbornly remain unconvinced of the downsides of being able to better see what I am shooting at. ;)

While I agree completely, I have yet to find a single CCW outside of the house case where the defender needed a light of any kind to PID the bad guy involved.

It's tough for bad guys to rob people when the lights are completely out, just something I've noticed.

LittleLebowski

10-03-2014, 09:47 AM

While I agree completely, I have yet to find a single CCW outside of the house case where the defender needed a light of any kind to PID the bad guy involved.

It's tough for bad guys to rob people when the lights are completely out, just something I've noticed.

There you go, throwing buckets of cold logic on my thoughting :D

Sparks2112

10-03-2014, 09:53 AM

I shoot the gun faster with a light on it. My main reason for carrying one. Also I've found the prototype DSG WML AIWB holster I'm using to be slightly more comfortable than the non WML version (go figure right?).

Tamara

10-03-2014, 09:58 AM

While I agree completely, I have yet to find a single CCW outside of the house case where the defender needed a light of any kind to PID the bad guy involved.

Oh, definitely. In general, I don't think pointing the gun at something and squeezing a button on it is a good idea if it's not something I've already decided I need to shoot.

(But if I've already decided to shoot at it, I don't mind seeing it better while I'm shooting.)

Tamara

10-03-2014, 09:59 AM

1slow

10-03-2014, 10:33 AM

You'd shoot it even faster if you replaced the batteries with lead shot. :D

That is the "Sap Mod" ! Necessary to make a plastic pistol as good a club as a 1911 or N frame. Could go hi tech and fill with tungsten.

Sparks2112

10-03-2014, 10:48 AM

Gaming like that will get you killed "on da streetz".

Jay Cunningham

10-03-2014, 10:51 AM

This is a technical forum.

okie john

10-03-2014, 11:42 AM

Night sights, WMLs, and hand-held lights are just more tools in the bag. You may be able to identify ability, opportunity, and jeopardy without additional light. Whether (and how) you engage from there is a tactical issue, and I think that a lot of people war-game their gear without properly considering tactics. For instance, given the increased likelihood of multiple assailants, lighting up the night--which gives away your position and gives the bad guys a gorgeous target indicator--may be a very bad idea.

Better to have options.

Okie John

Tamara

10-03-2014, 11:58 AM

Gaming like that will get you killed "on da streetz".

I was (mostly) kidding, of course. But I'm hanging it out here and admitting I like having a light on my gun and I want your backup, John; you don't need to hide behind the reduced split times. The light-using community needs good role models like you. :)

Tamara

10-03-2014, 12:00 PM

which gives away your position and gives the bad guys a gorgeous target indicator

If he doesn't know my position already, then how is he attacking me?

If I've got my gun out, it's because they've already "targeted" me and know my "position". I'm not laying ambushes on the Ho Chi Minh trail, I'm getting jacked in an Indianapolis alley.

Sparks2112

10-03-2014, 01:00 PM

I was (mostly) kidding, of course. But I'm hanging it out here and admitting I like having a light on my gun and I want your backup, John; you don't need to hide behind the reduced split times. The light-using community needs good role models like you. :)

Role model, hah.

Comes down to "Does having one negatively affect my ability to carry/conceal the gun?" Nope.

"Could it possibly be of some benefit, even if it is unlikely?" Yup.

Easy choice, for me at least.

LittleLebowski

10-03-2014, 01:05 PM

Comes down to "Does having one negatively affect my ability to carry/conceal the gun?" Nope.

"Could it possibly be of some benefit, even if it is unlikely?" Yup.

Easy choice, for me at least.

I'm leaning towards this reasoning. That and the aforementioned happenings of me grabbing a WML equipped handgun when the German security firm is alerting at night. I've trained to use a handheld and a handgun in conjunction and I've shot at night using a WML equipped handgun. Guess which one was way easier?

Chuck Haggard

10-03-2014, 01:19 PM

I do have a PML on my nightstand gun, but I have yet to find a light that makes me happy for use with my G19.

KevinB

10-03-2014, 01:26 PM

I don't carry pistols without a light - except my BUG (and if I could squeeze something on a Shield and not gain size -- I would...

While I may not need it -- it does free my other hand for activities (dialing 911). I can think of 1000 reasons to have it - even though the chances of use (in a CCW) are minor/very rare.

Down side is I cannot AWIB (I've tried) - however I decided to keep the CCW where the duty gun is (albeit under a shirt).

I carry my handgun for the unlikely times I may need it -- I can carry a WML - why would I not?

Up1911Fan

10-03-2014, 01:43 PM

LittleLebowski

10-03-2014, 01:45 PM

I do have a PML on my nightstand gun, but I have yet to find a light that makes me happy for use with my G19.

What don't you like about the Surefire X200/X300 series?

KevinB

10-03-2014, 01:51 PM

What don't you like about the Surefire X200/X300 series?

He's cheap ;)

I'd like a scaleable 50-200 Lumen 1 battery light - I don't have a problem with the X200/X300 series on a duty gun - but for a CCW on a 19sized gun - a little smaller would be nice

Chuck Haggard

10-03-2014, 01:53 PM

What don't you like about the Surefire X200/X300 series?

I have one, actually two, but it turns a G19 into a package as long as a G34, so I'm not sure what the point would be.

I have at least five pistol mounted lights on hand, including two X300s

LittleLebowski

10-03-2014, 02:02 PM

I'd like a scaleable 50-200 Lumen 1 battery light - I don't have a problem with the X200/X300 series on a duty gun - but for a CCW on a 19sized gun - a little smaller would be nice

I think the 19 with an X200 is prolly better than my 17 with an X200 but it's still comfortable and quite doable. Tony Mayer/JM Custom really makes good stuff. I'll be using this setup in the upcoming EAG COC course in a coupla weeks.

Up1911Fan

10-03-2014, 02:03 PM

I do have a PML on my nightstand gun, but I have yet to find a light that makes me happy for use with my G19.
Have you looked at the updated Inforce APL? It use's a clamping screw similar to the TRL1 instead of the cam that was reported to self eject from the front of the gun when firing. Doesn't appear as long as the X300, but is 200 lumens. I don't have one as i'm happy with my Surefire, just another option.

Mike C

10-03-2014, 02:51 PM

Remember these suckers?

2637

The XML's were crap for lumen output but the size of the light was perfect. I wish someone would put out something like this again but with a higher lumen output and using some different batteries. Those CR-2 batteries were a pain to find and were wicked expensive. I hate getting stabbed in the junk every time I sit down when sporting something with a WML. Would be nice to have choices.

Jay Cunningham

10-03-2014, 03:08 PM

Excellent points, Chuck.

okie john

10-03-2014, 03:30 PM

If he doesn't know my position already, then how is he attacking me?

If I've got my gun out, it's because they've already "targeted" me and know my "position". I'm not laying ambushes on the Ho Chi Minh trail, I'm getting jacked in an Indianapolis alley.

Maybe somebody else is getting jacked and you happen upon it. Accomplices, lookouts, etc., may not know exactly where you are. Be nice to keep it that way for a while, no?

Like I said, lights and other gear just give you options that you can use to support your tactics.

Okie John

SpyderMan2k4

10-03-2014, 04:17 PM

If someone else is getting jacked, I'm calling the cops and staying out of it. My duty is going home to my family safe, not running around putting myself in unnecessary danger trying to save others.

JDM

10-03-2014, 04:28 PM

Maybe somebody else is getting jacked and you happen upon it. Accomplices, lookouts, etc., may not know exactly where you are. Be nice to keep it that way for a while, no?

Like I said, lights and other gear just give you options that you can use to support your tactics.

Okie John

If someone else is getting jacked, I'm calling the cops and staying out of it. My duty is going home to my family safe, not running around putting myself in unnecessary danger trying to save others.

Stay on topic, please.

Intervening in confrontations other than your own is not the topic of this thread.

Aray

10-03-2014, 04:32 PM

Deleted

SpyderMan2k4

10-03-2014, 04:41 PM

Stay on topic, please.

Intervening in confrontations other than your own is not the topic of this thread.
Well in that case, I think weapon mounted lights on a carry gun is great. Well, in theory, cause I don't have one on my carry guns. Maybe someday if a good enough holster is created

LittleLebowski

10-03-2014, 04:52 PM

Well in that case, I think weapon mounted lights on a carry gun is great. Well, in theory, cause I don't have one on my carry guns. Maybe someday if a good enough holster is created

It's been created.

Dropkick

10-03-2014, 05:09 PM

It's been created.

Details?

Up1911Fan

10-03-2014, 05:15 PM

Details?
Read the whole thread (hint: check the first page).

SpyderMan2k4

10-03-2014, 05:23 PM

I should have been clearer... A holster that's good enough FOR ME... One that meets or exceeds the comfort and concealability of non wml holsters

LittleLebowski

10-03-2014, 05:34 PM

I should have been clearer... A holster that's good enough FOR ME... One that meets or exceeds the comfort and concealability of non wml holsters

Mine meets the comfort of a non WML holster. As far as exceeding, that's not a realistic proposition.

SpyderMan2k4

10-03-2014, 05:42 PM

LittleLebowski

10-03-2014, 05:54 PM

Someone seems to think it is a realistic proposition

Hey, welcome to Pistol-forum! We can and will discuss things like adults here without resorting to passive aggressive remarks. To wit: I don't think the added length, width, and weight (mainly the length from my limited experience) of a WML will allow an IWB handgun to be as comfortable as a non WML equipped handgun. However, Sparks2112 is using a different holster and placement. Since I know that he's a dedicated shooter with a very good skill set, I'm going to add that bit as a valid datum to my thoughts about concealing a WML equipped pistol.

Sparks2112

10-03-2014, 06:35 PM

Hey, welcome to Pistol-forum! We can and will discuss things like adults here without resorting to passive aggressive remarks. To wit: I don't think the added length, width, and weight (mainly the length from my limited experience) of a WML will allow an IWB handgun to be as comfortable as a non WML equipped handgun. However, Sparks2112 is using a different holster and placement. Since I know that he's a dedicated shooter with a very good skill set, I'm going to add that bit as a valid datum to my thoughts about concealing a WML equipped pistol.

If I were carrying this at 3-4 o'clock it would suck big chocolate salty balls. AIWB at 12:30 however is awesome with the "RAMPAGE!" Prototype. If you had told me a year ago that comfortable AIWB carry of a Glock 34 with an X300U would be a thing I'd have argued that you were nuts. http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/10/04/yva4ejyh.jpg

SpyderMan2k4

10-03-2014, 06:40 PM

Interesting

1slow

10-03-2014, 06:42 PM

All jokes aside, I really like X400s with a DG 11 switch but have yet to find the AIWB for this on a P30, P30L, HK45.
I have found advantages for me with light and laser. Shooting the Rogers course at night etc.... I also carry a hand held light.

LittleLebowski

10-03-2014, 06:43 PM

If I were carrying this at 3-4 o'clock it would suck big chocolate salty balls. AIWB at 12:30 however is awesome with the "RAMPAGE!" Prototype. If you had told me a year ago that comfortable AIWB carry of a Glock 34 with an X300U would be a thing I'd have argued that you were nuts.

I'm using a foam backed JM Custom at about 4 o'clock with a 10 degree cant for a G17 with an X300. Feels great.

HopetonBrown

10-03-2014, 07:10 PM

While I prefer an X300 Ultra, the Inforce APL stayed on my Glock 19 during a Louis Awerbuck low light class, and an outlaw USPSA night match. If someone is looking for a light that isn't as bulky as a Surefire, it'd seem like a good option.

Mike C

10-03-2014, 07:21 PM

Inforce APL looks like a decent option, anyone know how durable they are? What about their carbine lights will they handle abuse? All of their lights look light they have a decent profile and lumen level without being overly long. Their carbine lights look slick also, I like the placement for the toggle switch. Looks optimal for 12 o'clock placement, I love my scouts but wouldn't mind something like that.

KevinB

10-04-2014, 08:24 AM

Dropkick

10-04-2014, 08:43 AM

On topic: for those of you that run WMLs on your "night stand" guns, are they in holsters that you don't wear, or...?

Read the whole thread (hint: check the first page).

Considering I posted on the first page I -have- been reading along... But you're right, and I missed LL mentioning his holster pages ago. *Shrug* This thread has taken some wild turns between there and here.

joshs

10-04-2014, 12:07 PM

On topic: for those of you that run WMLs on your "night stand" guns, are they in holsters that you don't wear

Mine is in an easy access safe, not in a holster.

JV_

10-04-2014, 12:11 PM

Mine is in an easy access safe, not in a holster.

Same here

LittleLebowski

10-04-2014, 12:12 PM

Mine is in an easy access safe, not in a holster.

I carry mine with a WML and then it goes in an easy access safe as well.

JV_

10-04-2014, 12:15 PM

I find I do better if the nightstand gun is dedicated, and I don't mess with it regularly. Plus it's the for my wife's use too.

LittleLebowski

10-04-2014, 12:57 PM

I find I do better if the nightstand gun is dedicated, and I don't mess with it regularly. Plus it's the for my wife's use too.

We have "his and hers" safes :D

joshs

10-04-2014, 01:33 PM

It adds virtually no bulk to the gun, and I stubbornly remain unconvinced of the downsides of being able to better see what I am shooting at. ;)

Are you using the lightguard that has a DG style switch? That's the only way I could see some utility to the WML for me. If I already have a gun in my hand in a public place, then I've already identified something that made me think deadly force was justified. That means either there is enough light to see the bad guy without a light, or I already have a light in my weak hand, which is going to make activating a light an additional task for my index finger when it should be doing something else. The DG/lightguard fixes this problem, but I'd likely forget to turn it off while practicing, so I'd go through a lot of batteries. There's also the other really lame problem: I'd have to use different guns and holsters to shoot USPSA and KSTG.

LSP972

10-04-2014, 02:41 PM

There's also the mild bonus of having a stand-off device that would prevent the gun from being pushed out of battery in a contact shot.

Now, THAT is the most sensible reason for a non-LE/non-military/CCW "civilian" to tote around a WML concealed I've heard.

Hey, WMLs are great. I have a half-dozen of them, but only two are in constant use… on my dedicated "house" pistol, and my go-to carbine, both of which are placed for defense of the castle. Active LE, military, sure; these people are expected to be aggressive and pro-active. I've been on both sides of that fence, and it just seems a bit… unnecessary… to add bulk and weight (aside from lengthening one's draw stroke) to one's concealed piece that is intended for in-your-face defensive purposes.

.

LSP972

10-04-2014, 02:53 PM

On topic: for those of you that run WMLs on your "night stand" guns, are they in holsters that you don't wear, or...?

Secured when not at home or when grandchirruns are around. Un-secured at bed time, within easy reach.

A buddy keeps his in some kind of yuppie book bag that has a shoulder strap, hanging from his bed post. He can quickly dip into the bag and grab the pistol from supine, but if he needs to go mobile he can just sling it over his shoulder… along with the extra magazine and hand-held light it carries. A killer idea that I simply forgot about pursuing, but will now thanks to this thread.

.

Tamara

10-04-2014, 02:54 PM

Are you using the lightguard that has a DG style switch?

Yes. For me, at least, I think that switches and buttons out ahead of the trigger guard might as well be in Albania for all the chance I have of remembering them when I'm in a hurry. :o

LittleLebowski

10-04-2014, 03:29 PM

Now, THAT is the most sensible reason for a non-LE/non-military/CCW "civilian" to tote around a WML concealed I've heard.

Hey, WMLs are great. I have a half-dozen of them, but only two are in constant use… on my dedicated "house" pistol, and my go-to carbine, both of which are placed for defense of the castle. Active LE, military, sure; these people are expected to be aggressive and pro-active. I've been on both sides of that fence, and it just seems a bit… unnecessary… to add bulk and weight (aside from lengthening one's draw stroke) to one's concealed piece that is intended for in-your-face defensive purposes.

.

My rationale, is that every time I've drawn a weapon as of late was in the dark, outside with a dog barking. Insofar as drawstroke, not worried about that, doesn't seem to be detrimentally slower. This is an experiment for me, brought on by an upcoming Pat Rogers class that has a lowlight portion.

The length is the biggest problem, the added weight is not noticeable. The JM Custom holster I have is quite comfortable, just took a nap wearing it :D

I don't claim this is the best way of doing things but it's fun to experiment with and I'm not done learning yet.

okie john

10-04-2014, 04:58 PM

The length is the biggest problem, the added weight is not noticeable.

For me it's the opposite. G17 in a RCS Phantom with a Surefire X300.

Okie John

Shellback

10-04-2014, 05:15 PM

If you had told me a year ago that comfortable AIWB carry of a Glock 34 with an X300U would be a thing I'd have argued that you were nuts.

I would say the same thing about someone rocking a G34, and what appears to be a G26, at the same time. ;)

Is that your daily carry set up?

LSP552

10-04-2014, 05:30 PM

Like everything else, one size doesn't fit all needs. If you have the need (or want), then it makes sense. For me, my WML pistol (G34) stays at home. My carry G17 & 19 are naked. I don't walk a dog after dark or do other things that require me to carry a concealed pistol with WML. I don't want the added weight or bulk because, for me, the benefit just isn't there.

Eli

10-05-2014, 02:45 PM

Inforce APL looks like a decent option, anyone know how durable they are?

I've been using one for a couple of years. Haven't had any issues with it. It had a bit over 2000 rounds on it while it was on my 19 and it's had almost 3000 rounds while riding on my 17A, as well as probably another thousand through an M&P45/SP2022/M&P9/FNX9/1911/M92-PAP. I'll probably end up getting a Gen 2 just cause, but I've never had any issues with the Gen 1 being loose or coming off.

Before I do any shooting, I smear a bit of chap-stik on the lens, after almost 6000 rounds the bezel is still perfectly clear and the light still functions the same as it did the day I bought it.

http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee95/ceelfi/f823f3da-4afe-4d38-863c-18c8fb438af7.jpg

http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee95/ceelfi/2kg6.jpg

Mike C

10-05-2014, 04:54 PM

Eli, thanks for answering my question and for the idea to use some chap-stick on the lens.

Eli

10-05-2014, 05:44 PM

Eli, thanks for answering my question and for the idea to use some chap-stick on the lens.

No problem. Any type of clear "gunk" will work, but I ALWAYS have chap-stick in my pocket. After all day at the range, the carbon and "gunk" both wipe off with just a paper towel.

Aray

10-06-2014, 05:44 AM

If you don't have chapstick or whatever and it does get gunked up, a Magic Eraser works like, well, magic.

LSP972

10-06-2014, 08:00 AM

My rationale, is that every time I've drawn a weapon as of late was in the dark, outside with a dog barking. Insofar as drawstroke, not worried about that, doesn't seem to be detrimentally slower. This is an experiment for me, brought on by an upcoming Pat Rogers class that has a lowlight portion.

The length is the biggest problem, the added weight is not noticeable. The JM Custom holster I have is quite comfortable, just took a nap wearing it :D

I don't claim this is the best way of doing things but it's fun to experiment with and I'm not done learning yet.

Oh, I don't begrudge anyone doing it; the potential advantage is undeniable. And I've been in plenty of possible lethal force confrontations in dim light where a WML could have simplified things.

I was speaking for MY applications. These days, I'm rarely out and about after dark, except around the house. And your example, if I may, sort of emphasizes that 'scenario'.;)

.

LSP972

10-06-2014, 08:01 AM

Eli, thanks for answering my question and for the idea to use some chap-stick on the lens.

A thin coat of Vaseline works, too... and is easier to clean off quickly, I would imagine.

.

Chuck Haggard

10-06-2014, 08:28 AM

I'll note that along with the before mentioned contact shot stand-off device potential having a PML makes it tougher for a bad guy to grab your gun in a draw gun retention scenario. Just something I have noted in training. The light makes it much tougher to get a grip on the front of the gun to perform a disarm.

Rich

10-07-2014, 03:14 PM

I have been using just handhelds since none or my pistols had rails . C1911,M5906,M6906,P229
I use the neck index or FBI hold and find it works best for me. I can also do reloads while holding my flashlight.

I wanted to try carrying a pistol/light IWB . So I could have a free hand if necessary. Call it a Force Multiplier.

JM /Tony made me a IWB holster Based off his V3 IWB. Except it has a straight drop , pull dot loops and a low ride.

Pistol = HK P30S 9mm /TLR-1 300lumen

I had no idea how comfortable it could be. I thought it would add bulk and lots of weight. I don't even notice it. My draw is the same. And Tony`s V3-L is even more comfortable than the NANO IWB (NO LIGHT)
I was using!

Is it overkill?? I don't know. I just rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it. Same goes with my bug = M642.

Really I had no idea simple it could be.

Rich

10-07-2014, 03:24 PM

I've been using one for a couple of years. Haven't had any issues with it. It had a bit over 2000 rounds on it while it was on my 19 and it's had almost 3000 rounds while riding on my 17A, as well as probably another thousand through an M&P45/SP2022/M&P9/FNX9/1911/M92-PAP. I'll probably end up getting a Gen 2 just cause, but I've never had any issues with the Gen 1 being loose or coming off.

Before I do any shooting, I smear a bit of chap-stik on the lens, after almost 6000 rounds the bezel is still perfectly clear and the light still functions the same as it did the day I bought it.

http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee95/ceelfi/f823f3da-4afe-4d38-863c-18c8fb438af7.jpg

http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee95/ceelfi/2kg6.jpg

I love the APL but hate the mounting system.

When mounted on my HK P30S V3 9mm it has back and forth play. And if drop from knee high on to carpet will consistently pop off the rail.
That was enough for me not to even try it at the range.

I hear the APL works fine with certain pistols. It mounts nicely to my KAC RAS. Makes me think the my rail is off or out of spec.

BTW I love your IWB-L holster can it come with Pull The Dot Loops?

HCM

10-07-2014, 03:45 PM

I love the APL but hate the mounting system.

When mounted on my HK P30S V3 9mm it has back and forth play. And if drop from knee high on to carpet will consistently pop off the rail.
That was enough for me not to even try it at the range.

I hear the APL works fine with certain pistols. It mounts nicely to my KAC RAS. Makes me think the my rail is off or out of spec.

BTW I love your IWB-L holster can it come with Pull The Dot Loops?

How old is your APL ? gen 1 or Gen 2 ?

Rich

10-07-2014, 03:47 PM

I don't want the added weight or bulk because, for me, the benefit just isn't there.

I totally thought the same thing at one time.

Rich

10-07-2014, 03:53 PM

I've been wearing RCS holsters IWB with lights for over 6 years.
At 3:00 I do not have any issues
The way they do their holsters adding a light is not a big deal - and the wider thinner profile spreads out any pressures.

I carry IWB-L at 3:00 as well !

Its a hard location to pull off sometimes. I prefer a straight drop on compact pistol under 4inchs and a low ride.

Now I will have to check out RCS again.

Rich

10-07-2014, 03:54 PM

Gen1

I asked them to make a better mounting system. I was one of the first to report problems with the APL and certain pistols

Rich

10-07-2014, 04:16 PM

Eli

10-07-2014, 10:39 PM

I love the APL but hate the mounting system.

When mounted on my HK P30S V3 9mm it has back and forth play. And if drop from knee high on to carpet will consistently pop off the rail.
That was enough for me not to even try it at the range.

I hear the APL works fine with certain pistols. It mounts nicely to my KAC RAS. Makes me think the my rail is off or out of spec.

The Gen2 mount should fix that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEgd7lNJFF4

BTW I love your IWB-L holster can it come with Pull The Dot Loops?

Yep. Contact Jeff at RDR Custom Kydex, he can fix you right up.
https://www.facebook.com/RDRKydex

NH Shooter

10-16-2014, 06:39 PM

LOL @ using a pistol w/WML when walking the dog. I do the same with a G17C/APL as we have bear, fisher cat, raccoons and some mighty big raptors hanging out in the woods behind our home in NH.

The G17/APL is my nightstand rig, goes back in a safe every day but I have a JM Custom OWB holster for when I want to carry it (see my avatar).

LittleLebowski

10-16-2014, 09:17 PM

breakingtime91

11-26-2015, 01:56 AM

Curious to see if most stayed with their WML set ups?

Eli

11-26-2015, 02:16 AM

Curious to see if most stayed with their WML set ups?

http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee95/ceelfi/my%20edc%203.jpg

Every day that I'm not at work...

It used to be every day, period....but now that I'm in scrubs for 60+ hours a week, my "real" gun is getting carried much less often. I absolutely HATE the fact that I'm stuck with 7+1 in a Glock 43, but I can't completely hide anything bigger.

JDM

11-26-2015, 04:09 AM

http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee95/ceelfi/my%20edc%203.jpg

Every day that I'm not at work...

It used to be every day, period....but now that I'm in scrubs for 60+ hours a week, my "real" gun is getting carried much less often. I absolutely HATE the fact that I'm stuck with 7+1 in a Glock 43, but I can't completely hide anything bigger.

Does your job provide your scrubs, or do you buy your own?

dgg9

11-26-2015, 06:33 AM

Hey, WMLs are great. I have a half-dozen of them, but only two are in constant use… on my dedicated "house" pistol, and my go-to carbine, both of which are placed for defense of the castle. Active LE, military, sure; these people are expected to be aggressive and pro-active. I've been on both sides of that fence, and it just seems a bit… unnecessary… to add bulk and weight (aside from lengthening one's draw stroke) to one's concealed piece that is intended for in-your-face defensive purposes.

For people on "defense" (civilian CCW), I wonder what the scenarios are where you could get benefit from a WML. If I'm out and about and there's someone nearby that needs to be IDed, I can't use a WML. I have to use a regular light. If that person turns out to be a threat, then what? Do I drop the hand held light in favor of drawing and using the WML? Or is the niche that you're being attacked from close range, yet need a light, AND have enough time to turn on the WML? Aside from house-clearing and other "on the offense" tasks, I don't (yet) see the value add for CCW.

Tamara

11-26-2015, 09:50 AM

Curious to see if most stayed with their WML set ups?

Still have the CTC Lightguard on my carry gun, yes. Need to change the battery today, as a matter of fact. Still haven't been convinced that being better able to see the thing at which I'm shooting is a bad idea. :)

LSP552

11-26-2015, 10:17 AM

No light for my concealed carry because I just don't see the need. It was different when i was still a working trooper. There is a light-mounted pistol on my nightstand and on my carbine, but that's it. If I'm out roaming at night, there is a Fenix PD25 in my pocket for managing people and dark places.

NETim

11-26-2015, 10:31 AM

For people on "defense" (civilian CCW), I wonder what the scenarios are where you could get benefit from a WML. If I'm out and about and there's someone nearby that needs to be IDed, I can't use a WML. I have to use a regular light. If that person turns out to be a threat, then what? Do I drop the hand held light in favor of drawing and using the WML? Or is the niche that you're being attacked from close range, yet need a light, AND have enough time to turn on the WML? Aside from house-clearing and other "on the offense" tasks, I don't (yet) see the value add for CCW.

I'd hang onto the handheld and draw if needed. Never know when it may be necessary to go into El KaBong mode:

http://youtu.be/010aaw1Ajo0

A good handheld light makes a great impact weapon.

SLG

11-26-2015, 10:32 AM

I can carry a WML aiwb very comfortably, at least as well as without it. I just can't conceal it as well. Seems to push the grip out just a little too much for my liking. If I carried on the hip, it would not be an issue.

However, just to reiterate what Chuck said at the beginning, I do not see a benefit for CCW use. For professional use, absolutely, but not for CCW. Crime just doesn't work that way. I'm not against private citizens carrying WML's, and if you prefer that, have at it. Most probably need to focus on the gun stuff though, without adding the complication that a WML brings.

Now, if you have concerns about Paris style attacks, well, that may warrant a wml. Times change, as do threats.

dgg9

11-26-2015, 10:34 AM

I'd hang onto the handheld and draw if needed.

So would I. But the WML didn't add anything.

breakingtime91

11-26-2015, 10:35 AM

NETim

11-26-2015, 10:44 AM

So would I. But the WML didn't add anything.

I agree. The handheld is already in my hand when I exit a building out to a dark or semi-dark parking lot. HD guns have lights on them.

JodyH

11-26-2015, 10:51 AM

I have a WML on my nightstand gun (currently a VP9/Viridian X5L) because it just makes sense in that role (I might have to go into offensive search mode depending on the situation). I also use that combo when I'm out camping. Although my new Surefire wristlight has almost negated the need for a WML under camping conditions. If I end up with the Luminox/Surefire combo, that will be the only thing I use out camping (I don't mind looking like a nerd in the woods).
A Steiner DBAL-PL and a set of NODS will be mine for the next month or so... talk about a no light advantage if you have the time to put them on.

For CCW, first there has to be enough light for the badguy to see and select me as a target. There has to be enough light and proximity for our "business transaction" to take place. There has to be enough light available for me to identify him as a threat before I can even draw my pistol. If I've drawn and he runs off into the night, I'm not going to chase or search for him.
The WML juice isn't worth the squeeze for me.
Even taking into account a Paris style attack, the terrs weren't knocking out the power and walking around with NODS they were standing in a lit up rock concert and deliberately aiming at people. If they can see me, I can see them.

GJM

11-26-2015, 11:07 AM

I understand the no WML logic for regular CCW use against human leg threats. For four leg threats, the WML is very handy, although I am planning on trying the Jody solution of the SF wrist light.

Tamara

11-26-2015, 11:11 AM

So, see, the CTC Lightguard hasn't been a rousing sales success because it doesn't have All The Lumens, rawr! It throws a wide, even, 100-lumen beam.

Since I just had it off the gun to change the battery, I threw it on my postal scale: 1.6 ounces, battery included. It's narrower than the gun, and does not protrude past the muzzle nor below the trigger guard. It has a grip-activated switch below the trigger guard similar to a Surefire or Streamlight remote switch. It is completely transparent in operation; all it does is simply point 100 lumens of light at things I'm already shooting with my gun. Other than the fact that it cost money and requires special holsters, I'm not seeing a downside. I have yet to have it explained to me how this is going to get me killed on the street by ninjas.

JodyH

11-26-2015, 11:16 AM

Other than the fact that it cost money and requires special holsters, I'm not seeing a downside.
That's the main issue for me.
I'm very particular as to what AIWB holsters I like, they are almost all leather and none of them have a WML option of any kind.
Since the WML adds such a small advantage, going on a holster hunt just isn't worth the time and expense to me.

I get away with a WML while camping because I usually use a kydex OWB and New Mexico has open carry if my OWB shows.

NETim

11-26-2015, 11:20 AM

runcible

11-26-2015, 11:24 AM

I think that the CTC LGs were horribly under- and mis-marketed; for AIWB there external geometry is pretty ideal, and I thought that the SF XC-1 was intended to be a shot at that same dynamic before the switching ended up as a goatrope.

Even with the lumen wars ongoing, if they had a grouping of modern design and appendix-centric holsters, I think they have something to offer the market.

JodyH

11-26-2015, 11:28 AM

I remember when a Surefire 6P 60 lumen light was blindingly bright...

100 lumens!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3sLhnDJJn0

Eli

11-26-2015, 11:50 AM

Chuck Haggard

11-26-2015, 11:57 AM

I'm very much a "do as you please" kinda guy, so I honestly couldn't care less if you're carrying with a WML or not.

With that being said...the first scenario (of many) that pops into my head is... Somedude approaches you in an area that's dark enough that you need a light to fully tell what's going on, you light him up with your handheld, you identify that is is in fact a threat and out comes the people popper, he's no longer approaching you but isn't running off either...then you hear Possible-Somedude-#2 approaching from your lateral.

Do you completely disregard Somedude-#1 (even though you've already identified him as a ne'er-do-well) to light up Possible-Somedude-#2 with your handheld, since that's your only lighting option, or do you keep your WML trained on #1 while identifying #2 as a friendly or foe?

If I'm #1, and you illuminate me but don't shoot me, and THEN you take the light off of me to look for my partner...depending on my original intent either I'm gone, or you're very hurt.

Having worked night shift for decades on the street, and having a hobby of doing ride-alongs with other PDs when I am out of town, I have never been in an urban area where that scenario could/would play out.

I have no issue with people having WMLs on their pistols, except with the folks loudly proclaiming that a WML is a MUST HAVE!!! for CCW, and that so very, very many people forgo the extra training needed to safely and competently run that gear. Most of the people I see teaching "low light" also have to fucking idea what they are doing. Self appointed tactical dudes teaching folks who are new to this game is a series of bad things waiting to happen.

breakingtime91

11-26-2015, 12:01 PM

I don't have anything against it but I agree with chuck. I have been looked at like an idiot when I said I don't understand why you think you need it on a ccw. Most of the time it's some type of scenario\idea in their heads or they want to hang something cool off their guns. The later not being what I see on this forum, atleast all of you have reasons

Eli

11-26-2015, 12:05 PM

... I have never been in an urban area where that scenario could/would play out.

Fair enough.

BehindBlueI's

11-26-2015, 12:28 PM

I'm very much a "do as you please" kinda guy, so I honestly couldn't care less if you're carrying with a WML or not.

With that being said...the first scenario (of many) that pops into my head is... Somedude approaches you in an area that's dark enough that you need a light to fully tell what's going on, you light him up with your handheld, you identify that is is in fact a threat and out comes the people popper, he's no longer approaching you but isn't running off either...then you hear Possible-Somedude-#2 approaching from your lateral.

Do you completely disregard Somedude-#1 (even though you've already identified him as a ne'er-do-well) to light up Possible-Somedude-#2 with your handheld, since that's your only lighting option, or do you keep your WML trained on #1 while identifying #2 as a friendly or foe?

If I'm #1, and you illuminate me but don't shoot me, and THEN you take the light off of me to look for my partner...depending on my original intent either I'm gone, or you're very hurt.

I can create hypotheticals where if you don't have a grappling hook you are screwed. What's that prove? I can just say I've never seen an incident where a citizen carrier used a WML or where one would likely have made any difference in the outcome. Carry one if you like, I don't suppose there is any downside other than Tam's list of price and holster selection. It's just not worth it to me.

SAWBONES

11-26-2015, 12:51 PM

I find very, very little utility for a CCW pistol with a WML. If it's something as small and easy to add as the CT trigger guard units than maybe.

I know of exactly zero incidents involving folks outside of the house in a CCW incident where a WML was needed, or any light for that matter.

Bravo for saying it.

My bedside "home defense gun" has had an attached white light for twenty years, but for daily outside-the-house CCW, a WML is a bulky, heavy and unnecessary annoyance to me as a gray private citizen who "doesn't go dumb places...etc".

I have a separate flashlight with me all the time if I need to illuminate a dark place.

Tamara

11-26-2015, 12:53 PM

I have a separate flashlight with me all the time if I need to illuminate a dark place.

Me too.

Eli

11-27-2015, 01:16 AM

I can create hypotheticals where if you don't have a grappling hook you are screwed.

I can't conceal a grappling hook IWB.
Also, as the token fat guy (it even says so under my name), even if I could conceal the hook, I still couldn't pull myself up the rope......so, there's that I guess?

BehindBlueI's

11-27-2015, 08:14 AM

I can't conceal a grappling hook IWB.
Also, as the token fat guy (it even says so under my name), even if I could conceal the hook, I still couldn't pull myself up the rope......so, there's that I guess?

Here you go:

http://cdn1.bigcommerce.com/server4100/dbe3e/product_images/uploaded_images/eod-grappling-hook-collapsed.jpg?t=1419361863

Can't help on upper body strength....but maybe you just need to pull a stuck lever across a chasm, then upper body strength won't matter as much!

JTQ

11-27-2015, 08:51 AM

I remember when a Surefire 6P 60 lumen light was blindingly bright...

They are significantly brighter than the Mag-lites that were the top end light for a long time. I'm always surprised when folks complain how inadequate those 50 - 100 lumen lights are.

Tamara wrote,
..the CTC Lightguard hasn't been a rousing sales success because it doesn't have All The Lumens, rawr! It throws a wide, even, 100-lumen beam.
I've found 100 lumens to be about all I ever need in my typical tasks. I know there is a use for those 400+ lumen lights, but I haven't found one for my daily uses. I suppose if I was at the high school football game and the stadium lights went out I could probably pull out a 400 lumen light and they could continue the game, or if I worked at the airport and the runway lights went out I could probably light the runway up for an emergency landing.:)

Here's the take from Tucker Gun Leather on WML http://www.tuckergunleather.com/faq/

Q. Does Tucker recommend carrying a defensive pistol with a light attached to an accessory rail?

A. Tucker says, "If you're on a SWAT team, go for it. If not, your pistol is a quick-response tool for a sudden and extreme self-defense situation. If you have a light on the gun, you may find it distracting enough to slow down your response." (YMMV-Have your pistol your way.)

JodyH

11-27-2015, 09:19 AM

I can just say I've never seen an incident where a citizen carrier used a WML or where one would likely have made any difference in the outcome.
Tom Givens made a similar statement based on his data.

NETim

11-27-2015, 09:25 AM

I'm sure there is a point of diminishing returns in the world of lights. I don't know that we're there yet when it comes to "fighting" lights.

I'm still operating under the theory if "x" is good, then "2x" is better when it comes to lights.

Highly unlikely that I'll ever need a light "on the street." As others far wiser than I have pointed out, the bad guys need light to select their victims and we'll seldom, if ever, find ourselves in total darkness to begin with. Still, I carry a good, powerful light. Even in daylight, its presence may be enough to get me "deselected."

Plus I like flashlights.

JAD

11-27-2015, 09:28 AM

Tom Givens made a similar statement based on his data.

It's becoming a litmus for me when looking at trainers.

JodyH

11-27-2015, 09:45 AM

Plus I like flashlights.
I'm with you man! Flashlights, knives and guns are my addictions. Here at my computer desk I just looked around and within reach are 4 flashlights and a X300U WML.
:cool:
The only time I'm in a urban setting and in a dark enough place to need a light is when walking the dog because we live and walk on the very edge of town and go out in the pastures behind my house (biggest threats are feral dogs or coyotes). Since I bought the Surefire wristlight, the WML pistol stays home on the headboard.
About the darkest urban area I've been in other than that is when the power went out at our hotel during a moonless, overcast rainy night. Even then I could see well enough to take care of handgun business if needed (I "war gamed" a little bit while wandering down to the front desk). The most useful light I had that night wasn't a retina burning tactical flashlight it was my micro LED keychain light with 200+ hour battery life.
If there was a Garrity Invictus or Kolbeson Texas Comfort for a WML H&K, then maybe I'd look into something like the new micro-Surefire WML (maybe the Gen 2 or 3 version will be smaller with a better switch).
As it is now the lights are too big and the holster selection too small for me to go out of my way to carry one daily, if you can or do, rock on.

Chuck Haggard

11-27-2015, 10:00 AM

Tom Givens made a similar statement based on his data.

In the last newsletter Tom specifically states that in none of his student shooting incidents was a light used, nor was one needed.

It's really tough for bad guys to rob you, or even find you, when everyone is in the pitch black ninja closet.

Chuck Whitlock

11-27-2015, 10:08 AM

JodyH

11-27-2015, 06:37 PM

In the last newsletter Tom specifically states that in none of his student shooting incidents was a light used, nor was one needed.

It's really tough for bad guys to rob you, or even find you, when everyone is in the pitch black ninja closet.
For a house gun I'm all aboard the WML train.
If you might have to go looking for trouble... WML yes.
If trouble is looking for you... mehhh WML not really needed.

JCS

07-17-2016, 11:38 AM

Sorry to revive an old thread but I found a lot of good information in here. I have recently seen a trend on forums of guys having wml on their pistols. So much so that I wondered if I had missed the memo on it. After reading this thread I feel fine about not having one on a ccw. I do have one that I could put on my nightstand gun but I haven't properly vetted my pistols reliability with it on.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

seabiscuit

02-28-2018, 12:51 PM

My brother got me a WML (APLc) for Christmas and I just installed it on my Glock 19. Lots of good info here, thanks. I’m leaning towards not getting an IWB light bearing holster for it, based on this.

But, the one situation where I think it would be useful is in a movie theater active shooter situation. It’d be dark enough and I’d want a precise shot. Any thoughts on that?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

JTQ

02-28-2018, 01:20 PM

But, the one situation where I think it would be useful is in a movie theater active shooter situation. It’d be dark enough and I’d want a precise shot. Any thoughts on that?
I've thought of that scenario. Having a tactical light has never seemed to be an advantage in a theater for the following reasons...

1. It is almost never completely dark in a theater.
2. I'd expect the shooter (I could certainly be wrong) to be at the front of the theater (screen side - all of our movie theaters have front side entrances) which means the projector light would be on the shooter. I'm willing to admit, a shooter coming in from the back, shooting people in the back, would be a different scenario.
3. With all the people in the theater for a shooter to shoot at, and we're all hitting the ground and heading for the exits, what would cause the shooter to single me out of a group of a couple of hundred people and focusing his fire on me? A light, maybe?

rjohnson4405

02-28-2018, 01:25 PM

seabiscuit

02-28-2018, 08:58 PM

With all the people in the theater for a shooter to shoot at, and we're all hitting the ground and heading for the exits, what would cause the shooter to single me out of a group of a couple of hundred people and focusing his fire on me? A light, maybe?

Good points. And maybe all the people would give an opportunity for some precise fire at the shooter without specific return fire. Probably enough time to get a good shot with night sights.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Tamara

03-01-2018, 12:59 PM

I have a Glock one people can try/buy :)

I had one on my M&P the whole time I carried that gun and was a satisfied user. When I switched to the Glock 19, I installed a Lightguard and it stayed on the gun about six weeks. A high grip gave me the worst case of "Glock Knuckle" I've ever had. Also, a proper high grip resulted in inconsistent activation, like you noticed. Consistent light activation could only be achieved with an improperly low grip.

Clusterfrack

02-11-2022, 11:34 AM

Le Français

02-11-2022, 12:00 PM

In a 'dark' environment, is it well documented that a person on the receiving end cannot tell the difference between a handheld and a WML?
If so, how bright a light is required?
Other factors?

Quick test: I used a Streamlight Stylus Pro (100 lumens--definitely on the low end for EDC lights). In a dimly lit room with some light leaking around blackout curtains, if the light was pointed at my face from about 10 feet away, I could not tell if it was mounted to a pistol or not. In a room without any ambient light at all, same thing. In both rooms, if I angled away from the light, even just by about 15 degrees, I could see enough to tell if it was mounted to a pistol. One thing to note is that especially indoors or when other objects are close by, the light from the flashlight reflects and illuminates the user to some degree--this was why the two levels of ambient light I tested in gave the same practical results.

As for other factors, this is a quick reminder never to carry a WML-equipped pistol without a separate handheld.

757_Magnum

02-11-2022, 03:09 PM

Resurrecting this thread to discuss some questions that came up recently:

In many cities, deploying a firearm carries a significant risk of prosecution. Here's the scenario: you light up a suspected bad guy (let's say with your handheld light). After the situation is resolved without gunfire, he claims you pointed a gun at him.

In a 'dark' environment, is it well documented that a person on the receiving end cannot tell the difference between a handheld and a WML?
If so, how bright a light is required?
Other factors?

Wouldn't there be a difference between brandishing in a manner that is meant to intimidate or escalate a situation vs deploying your firearm because you were in fear for your life, but ID'ed the potential assailant to determine that the threat didn't require deadly force? I would think the latter would favor the gun owner by displaying their sense of restraint.

I had a conversation with someone who was mildly anti-gun, and they spoke about how that, other than the high capacity, ARs and modern semi-auto pistols are so dangerous because of the attachments. I replied that the most common of those "feared" attachments are WMLs, and they're good for deciding not to shoot, and if the target was someone/ something that needed shooting, the light could help in being more accurate and producing less collateral damage. A light went off in their eyes, and they had no further argument.

Of course, I'm a proponent of handheld and WML together.

Le Français

02-11-2022, 03:47 PM

Wouldn't there be a difference between brandishing in a manner that is meant to intimidate or escalate a situation vs deploying your firearm because you were in fear for your life, but ID'ed the potential assailant to determine that the threat didn't require deadly force? I would think the latter would favor the gun owner by displaying their sense of restraint.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but pointing a WML at someone to determine how much of a threat they pose is not a good idea. Use a handheld for that. In what situation would you be reasonably in fear for your life, but need to gather more information before using deadly force? That is not a likely scenario.

TGS

02-11-2022, 03:57 PM

Wouldn't there be a difference between brandishing in a manner that is meant to intimidate or escalate a situation vs deploying your firearm because you were in fear for your life, but ID'ed the potential assailant to determine that the threat didn't require deadly force? I would think the latter would favor the gun owner by displaying their sense of restraint.

Yes and no. For what it's worth, by pointing a firearm at someone you're likely in the assault category, not brandishing, so it's another conversation entirely.

This is a "what if" scenario that is going to depend on incredibly specific information about a hypothetical incident as well as specifics on the laws of a given area (remember, every state has different laws).

This will not result in useful conversation, IMO.

Crazy Dane

02-11-2022, 05:05 PM

GJM

02-11-2022, 05:14 PM

WDR

02-11-2022, 08:07 PM

I always have a handheld flashlight in my pocket, but going on the last year I have been almost continuously carrying my EDC with a TLR-7 installed. Given how lightweight and compact this light is, and how trim holsters are, I don't see a downside. Since I am camping in the desert almost every weekend during the winter, where there are no street lights or sources of ambient light, a weapon mounted light sure would make the shooting part easier.

This is pretty much the camp I am in. I always carry a handheld, and use it often... I use a light far more often than I use my knife or Leatherman tool. Using the handheld to search/identify in a defensive context is safer for sure. For a shooting problem, the gun mounted light makes far more sense to me. Different tools for different uses.

A few months ago I started carrying a RMR'd G19.5 most of the time. I ordered a TLR-7 compatible AIWB holster, and a non-light bearing holster of the same type from JM Custom at the same time, figuring I'd swap depending on circumstances (day or night work schedule, etc). The light bearing holster is more comfortable than the non-light bearing version of the same holster, for me, and I find myself choosing to carry it, and not swapping. I'd hazard a guess at about 80% light bearing use, and 20% "slick" without the light. When it was time to order an OWB holster for desert bumming, I ordered the light bearing version. The "slick" holster is useful for the G26.5 I just picked up, so it will not be going anywhere.

The TLR-7 is small enough to not be annoying AIWB, while giving enough useful light to justify the trade off of slightly more bulk/weight. It's not face melting bright, but for defensive uses at realistic ranges, it'll do the job. I wish it fit on my G26.

JCN

02-11-2022, 09:33 PM

The TLR-7 is small enough to not be annoying AIWB, while giving enough useful light to justify the trade off of slightly more bulk/weight. It's not face melting bright, but for defensive uses at realistic ranges, it'll do the job. I wish it fit on my G26.

Have you seen these adapters?

84177

https://www.amazon.com/ReCover-Tactical-Compatible-Generations-Picatinny/dp/B09NMMQMNG

MickAK

02-11-2022, 09:46 PM

I'm glad this came back up because I just had this conversation. Everyone here is looking at this as "I am the defender". The scenario that I used is a legal CCWer with a defensive mind set has a flat in front of your abode. As he is gathering his tools you hear him and go to see what is up. It is dark and you draw your CCW with WML to identify. He sees you draw which to his point of understanding is an act of aggression and in turn draws his weapon and a gun fight ensues. I have had the car with flat tire in front of my house happen and I ended up holding a light for the guy.

I have no need for a WML on my CCW and I live way out in the country where it does get dark. I do have long guns with lights that can be left slung while identifying with a handheld.

I think the generally accepted idea is you would identify with the handheld, not the CCW. But if you need the WML it is there.

I personally don't like them on pistols, but I can see the sound arguments for having one. My only argument against is standing there with a 'shoot here' beacon when you don't always know how many people you're against. I think my light management is better with a handheld/SHO than a WML, but that can be trained away.

WDR

02-11-2022, 10:46 PM

Have you seen these adapters?

84177

https://www.amazon.com/ReCover-Tactical-Compatible-Generations-Picatinny/dp/B09NMMQMNG

Seen, yes. Not interested though. It's going to place the light in a different spot relative to the trigger guard/TLR-7 on my G19, and holsters that would fit such a contraption are not really available. What I'd like is a G26.5 with a rail that is the same as the 19.... but that's impossible. Unfortunately, the 26's dust cover is too short to allow for a slot that'd work with that light.

If I went the route of putting a WML on a G26, I'd probably get the TLR-6, as there are holsters available for that combo. Truth of the matter is I can do without the light most of the time. I just wish the 26 was a plug and play match to my G19/TLR-7, rail wise and holster wise.

As my grandmother used to say: "If wishes were fishes, we'd all have our limit."

(this is where GJM inserts the picture of his grip chopped 19X)

Bucky

02-12-2022, 05:38 AM

Clusterfrack

02-12-2022, 09:03 AM

Is the argument that, if you don’t have a WML, that would mitigate any claims of such?

Interesting idea. I didn't intend to suggest it, and at least personally I wouldn't worry about that. I wanted to discuss if a person on the receiving end of a light can tell if it's on a handgun. As I suspected, it depends...

frozentundra

02-12-2022, 03:20 PM

Given how lightweight and compact this light is, and how trim holsters are, I don't see a downside.

The light bearing holster is more comfortable than the non-light bearing version of the same holster, for me, and I find myself choosing to carry it, and not swapping.

This is where I am at now. It is currently more physically comfortable to carry a light/laser than not.

The TLR-8 AG is just over 2.5 oz with battery. For 3:30 IWB carry, the JM Custom IWB-3 light bearing holster is wider and flatter than the standard IWB-3 holster exactly where it contacts my hip. This distributes pressure better and creates even less of a hot spot. I see no difference in concealability. 500 lumens and a green laser are truly the EASY BUTTON for aiming in low or no light.

Retention notwithstanding, I would always choose the profile of the light bearing holster even if no light was present.

Holsters from top to bottom: Raven Morrigan G19 with XC1, JM Custom IWB-3 M&P, JM Custom IWB-3 light bearing TRL-8 AG. The wider/flatter holsters are more comfortable to wear.
84210

JCL

02-12-2022, 10:43 PM

Interesting idea. I didn't intend to suggest it, and at least personally I wouldn't worry about that. I wanted to discuss if a person on the receiving end of a light can tell if it's on a handgun. As I suspected, it depends...

That is an interesting angle that I hadn’t considered either. I think that it goes without saying that using a WML for general identification purposes is a bad and potentially illegal practice. A handheld is an absolute necessity. The consensus opinion seems to be generally aligned with my complete lack of concern over pointing a light attached to a weapon at an intruder in my home. In this jurisdiction the surrounding real property is considered to be part of the premises, so my real question concerns investigating two-legged critters outside, on the property, that may be called to my attention by security cameras.

Shawn Dodson

02-13-2022, 02:52 PM

Interesting idea. I didn't intend to suggest it, and at least personally I wouldn't worry about that. I wanted to discuss if a person on the receiving end of a light can tell if it's on a handgun. As I suspected, it depends...

The person on the receiving end might not be able to discern between the two but eyewitnesses probably can. Then there's the issue of surveillance cameras and cellphone videos.

I believe there's more legal risk than tactical value in having a WML on a CCW pistol.

Caballoflaco

02-13-2022, 05:04 PM

The person on the receiving end might not be able to discern between the two but eyewitnesses probably can. Then there's the issue of surveillance cameras and cellphone videos.

I believe there's more legal risk than tactical value in having a WML on a CCW pistol.

What legal risk, as long as you don’t point a gun at something a gun doesn’t need to be pointed at?

joshs

02-13-2022, 05:09 PM

What legal risk, as long as you don’t point a gun at something a gun doesn’t need to be pointed at?

I think the idea is that you get reported as having pointed a gun at someone just because they see a very bright light. If you happen to be carrying a WML, that might be a more credible claim.

WDR

02-13-2022, 05:33 PM

I think the idea is that you get reported as having pointed a gun at someone just because they see a very bright light. If you happen to be carrying a WML, that might be a more credible claim.

Same risks should go along with a handheld then. Maybe we should all just buy NODs and wear 'em all the time. :cool:

TGS

02-13-2022, 05:41 PM

Should probably just not carry a light at all.

Or a gun.

Or go outside.

Clusterfrack

02-13-2022, 05:49 PM

This went sideways fast. I take responsibility for a confusing scenario based post.

I’ll sum up my own take home from some good posts here:

Don’t count on a WML to hide that you have a gun in your hand. Anyone off-angle from the lens may be able to see the firearm.

Handheld lights are good for general illumination, ID, searching, etc. and WMLs probably aren’t.

WMLs are good for lighting up the target after it’s clear that someone may need to be shot.

Did I miss anything critical? (From the civilian side)

WDR

02-13-2022, 05:57 PM

I think that is a pretty good summary. My comment was a bit tongue in cheek, but I think getting so far down into the weeds, legalities wise, leads to arguments of how many fairies fit on pinheads pretty quick.

Sorry if I pushed it over the brink.

joshs

02-13-2022, 06:44 PM

Same risks should go along with a handheld then. Maybe we should all just buy NODs and wear 'em all the time. :cool:

You mean you don't EDC a PVS-14? I haven't found a good way to carry 31As IWB, so it's still single tube for me.

I wasn't endorsing that as a reason not to carry a WML. I don't think it's even the best "legalities" reason not to carry one.

Clark Jackson

02-13-2022, 07:05 PM

joshs

02-13-2022, 07:23 PM

Some of the points presented are similar to others I've seen on the forum or elsewhere before and I do not necessarily disagree with them. That said, I do not understand the "hard no" on WMLs.

My questions:
1) Why is the defensive use of a firearm - outside the armed professions - routinely reduced to the scenario of someone trying to rob you?

For people who have no connection to violent crime, attempted robbery is likely the most common crime to be a "random" victim. It's certainly not the only scenario, but it's by far the most likely violent crime where an otherwise law-abiding person will be the victim. (I'd have to look at some data a little closer to see if this also holds true for women).

2) Are tritium inserts on iron sights (aka night sights) a good idea?

Maybe, I don't think that they are absolutely necessary.

3) Are pistol mounted red dot sights (RDS) a good idea?

I like them, but they're definitely not necessary. For those without adequate training, they can actually be a hinderance for common defensive problems.

Personally, my biggest reason for not carrying with a WML is that I don't foresee a situation where I'm going to be searching with a pistol out. If I already need to have a handheld in my hand to search/identify, then I'm just going to shoot SHO and keep using the light with my left hand.

Shawn Dodson

02-13-2022, 07:31 PM

What legal risk, as long as you don’t point a gun at something a gun doesn’t need to be pointed at?
There's a lot of gray area between what you believe is simple black and white. You have other people's perceptions of what you did and what they say to police.

Clark Jackson

02-13-2022, 07:52 PM

For people who have no connection to violent crime, attempted robbery is likely the most common crime to be a "random" victim. It's certainly not the only scenario, but it's by far the most likely violent crime where an otherwise law-abiding person will be the victim. (I'd have to look at some data a little closer to see if this also holds true for women).

Maybe, I don't think that they are absolutely necessary.

I like them, but they're definitely not necessary. For those without adequate training, they can actually be a hinderance for common defensive problems.

Personally, my biggest reason for not carrying with a WML is that I don't foresee a situation where I'm going to be searching with a pistol out. If I already need to have a handheld in my hand to search/identify, then I'm just going to shoot SHO and keep using the light with my left hand.

Thanks for the reply, I appreciate the response.

I concur with your point about RDS both in necessity and requirements for additional training.

Do you do a lot of SHO training to maintain a proficiency level commensurate to the anticipated level of performance required while using a handheld light for a SD situation (human or animal)?

BWT

02-13-2022, 08:01 PM

In recent years I added a Surefire x300U to my Glock 34 then subsequent 17 that I use for carry.

A list of reasons it made sense to me:

1.) Light is nice for identifying a target and searching places. There are threads here about this subject. Yes I have carried off hand lights and off hand lights are nice - weapon lights are nice as well.
2.) A bright light may give me an advantage/ disorient someone momentarily in a gun fight. It may not, but I’d like to see everything I can while they can’t see me as distinctly just so I can be as sure as I can be.
3.) Its a muzzle weight - gripe or moan if you like but this does give a competitive advantage and why it was banned from USPSA until recent years (I mean we’re talking incremental improvements).
4.) If I get entangled the farthest thing forward is no longer the muzzle of the gun - therefore I might be able to break shot off with the front of the gun pressed against an aggressor.
5.) I wear glasses and I don’t see well without them - adding tons of light helps me - if I get sucker punched in a mugging/etc. or take a blow to the face it gives me the ability to orient and potentially discern more information with the WML than without with no glasses. The SAS operators used Maglights taped to the top of their MP5’s with no lasers or RDS to execute a successful hostage rescue and worked that way for years. Not saying it was a critical factor, but those guys knew what they were doing. It’s an advantage to me. ETA: I’d quantify this as extremely crude aiming device.
6.) The ability to execute strikes and break glass if needed (car accident/whatever) to get kids out, etc. with the muzzle of the gun.

Once I get over 2/3 benefits of something it passes the threshold of “go ahead and do it”. I was skeptical it would be comfortable to carry but bought one and a holster and it wasn’t that different. Thus, it’s now there.

I hope this helps!

breakingtime91

02-13-2022, 08:03 PM

Chuck Haggard
Clusterfrack
Chuck Whitlock
joshs
TR675
breakingtime91

Some of the points presented are similar to others I've seen on the forum or elsewhere before and I do not necessarily disagree with them. That said, I do not understand the "hard no" on WMLs.

My questions:
1) Why is the defensive use of a firearm - outside the armed professions - routinely reduced to the scenario of someone trying to rob you?

2) Are tritium inserts on iron sights (aka night sights) a good idea?

3) Are pistol mounted red dot sights (RDS) a good idea?

My thoughts:
1) I do not believe every defensive use of a firearm revolves around the perpetrators need to "see you" or be close enough to physically take something from you.

2) I know tritium night sights work exceedingly well in transition lighting where the target may be fully visible while your standard iron sights are not.

3) An RDS equipped pistol presents a unique challenge in low-light target acquisition which revolves around the issue of sight/target over match; I do not believe this is always satisfied with current auto brightness functions and instead requires the use of an external light source such as handheld or WML (I prefer WML if I'm looking down sights and on the way to shooting).

Your thoughts?

I can't remember what I have said in the past.

1. I think being robbed or a victim of a random crime to be the most likely given where I live and my profession, that said I see the merits of a wml if I am actively in a prolonged gun fight. Idk how often that happens for an average citizen and you could most likely make the argument that is not common enough to validate having a wml on your carry pistol. That said, it would be nice to have if you are in a prolonged fight, two hands on the gun beats one any day of the weak.

2. If I can't have a RDS, I want tritium.

3. I think a rds is the way of the future and a big force multiplier, similar to one on a rifle. I can stay target focused, something that under stress, is really important to me. That is why I still love the acog, in my past life that nice clear glass and simple reticle allowed me to do what I needed to even when I felt like I was going to poop myself. So if I can have something on my gun that allows me to do something easier (red dot on a pistol) I am going to do it. If its a bright day I hit the up button on the dot for one setting brighter or if its night I go one down. This has worked really well for me with my 407k.

TGS

02-13-2022, 08:34 PM

5.) I wear glasses and I don’t see well without them - adding tons of light helps me - if I get sucker punched in a mugging/etc. or take a blow to the face it gives me the ability to orient and potentially discern more information with the WML than without with no glasses. The SAS operators used Maglights taped to the top of their MP5’s with no lasers or RDS to execute a successful hostage rescue and worked that way for years. Not saying it was a critical factor, but those guys knew what they were doing. It’s an advantage to me. ETA: I’d quantify this as extremely crude aiming device.

This is something to consider. Even if you fall into the camp that you think you'll never need a light to PID a possible threat ("if I can see there's a person at all, I can see enough to know whether I need to shoot or not"), people on aggregate* tend to shoot MUCH better when using a WML and two hands on the gun as opposed to unassisted low-light or one handed light techniques.

*I get it, there's some asshole who wants to jump in and say how they are 1000% more accurate in low light, one handed, upside down using their pinky to press the trigger...I'm talking aggregate performance among a population, i don't care if you're a douchebag and don't need to hear it

Shawn Dodson

02-13-2022, 09:03 PM

Lots of theoretical babble about why a WML is useful but no hard data anywhere to back it up.

GJM

02-13-2022, 09:06 PM

Lots of theoretical babble about why a WML is useful but no hard data anywhere to back it up.

Shoot any timed and scored drill in dark conditions first with a hand held light, and then again with a WML, and you will have lots of data.

BWT

02-13-2022, 09:08 PM

Lots of theoretical babble about why a WML is useful but no hard data anywhere to back it up.

Really?

I look forward to you leading us all through your obviously superior line of thinking.

ETA: I regret my sarcasm a bit, but there’s tons of information. I’d ask you to find any special operations unit that doesn’t have lights mounted on their rifles when deployed now. I’d be shocked if a SWAT team didn’t. Sidearms I would say may be less likely due to it be a secondary weapon but still suspect most would. Anyway, that’s an outsider’s perspective.

joshs

02-13-2022, 09:15 PM

This is something to consider. Even if you fall into the camp that you think you'll never need a light to PID a possible threat ("if I can see there's a person at all, I can see enough to know whether I need to shoot or not"), people on aggregate* tend to shoot MUCH better when using a WML and two hands on the gun as opposed to unassisted low-light or one handed light techniques.

But, what do you do with your handheld when you draw? Drop it?

If it’s a situation where I have to draw and shoot “right now” in low light, I’m definitely faster if I just shoot with my normal grip, rather than than trying to activate a light.

joshs

02-13-2022, 09:21 PM

Shoot any timed and scored drill in dark conditions first with a hand held light, and then again with a WML, and you will have lots of data.

What if the drill includes identifying the target to determine whether or not you can legally draw a gun? That’s the exact drill that led to the creation of this thread. If I have to identify before drawing, I’m faster just shooting SHO with the light that is already in my hand.

BWT

02-13-2022, 09:23 PM

But, what do you do with your handheld when you draw? Drop it?

If it’s a situation where I have to draw and shoot “right now” in low light, I’m definitely faster if I just shoot with my normal grip, rather than than trying to activate a light.

I’m not TGS and I’m not a professional gun user. But he did give the distinction of a weapon mounted light. Also, what you’re describing is why Kyle Lamb prescribes the surefire DG switch - I don’t use one but I am looking at extended levers. But if you were asking me - my answer would be DG switch and WML. I’ve listened to him discuss this in his podcasts unfortunately I’ve heard enough of them I’m not sure which…

ETA:

Seeing your second post - I’ve lost track of the original context of the thread and only re-read recent posts - apologies. I would say there’s probably not a perfect solution but there could be a practiced solution. For example some folks put bungee loops on their hand held lights and loop over the back of their hand - if you grabbed the light that way and then had it inside your palm, saw something that needed a weapon - you could draw and get a compromised two-handed draw with the flashlight inside. Or get a weapon light with a grip switch and drop the handheld? I don’t know which would be better but this is a very specific circumstance.

ETA 2:

How are your follow ups, splits, and transitions two-handed versus one handed? I would imagine slower. Also, do you see no improvement drawing and clearing cover garments with two hands versus one?

TGS

02-13-2022, 09:36 PM

But, what do you do with your handheld when you draw? Drop it?

If it’s a situation where I have to draw and shoot “right now” in low light, I’m definitely faster if I just shoot with my normal grip, rather than than trying to activate a light.

Yep, I drop it, in such drills if I'm starting with a handheld.

My draw time does not seem to be impacted by activating a WML. It's activated before I even finalize my sight picture. It's sort of akin to the conversation we had years ago here about how quickly you can shoot if you start with your finger on the trigger or off the trigger in a register position. The finding was that it didn't matter as there's other things in the process that take longer than moving your finger to the trigger, and likewise in this conversation there's other things that take longer than activating the WML; that would be especially true if you're using a DG switch.

Maybe it's due to my personal ergonomics; using my Glock 19M with a Surefire XC1, my thumb sits right on top of the switch when I establish my grip.

ETA: I'd also like to note something about the verbiage I used, "better", and your comment about being faster. Accuracy is also a part of it, not just speed. I'm not aware of any human being that can shoot as accurately at the same speed as they can with two hands, and the tendency to shoot less accurate in low light (i.e. not using lighting assistance) is a result from the physiological limitation of the human mk1 eyeball. I've never seen a line of targets in low-light shooting have as accurate groups as when using a white light.

WDR

02-13-2022, 09:37 PM

You mean you don't EDC a PVS-14? I haven't found a good way to carry 31As IWB, so it's still single tube for me.

I wasn't endorsing that as a reason not to carry a WML. I don't think it's even the best "legalities" reason not to carry one.

Personally, I'm still suck with the old MkI Eyeball. To be clear, my comment was not a jab at you. It seems you've taken it how I intended ( :D ), but I wanted to get that out there.

I would like to hear some of those reasons though. I would think positive target ID would be a good reason to carry WML, which could be spun in a positive light in court I'd think. I have a hard time thinking of negatives, other than "he was pretending to be a cop" sorts of thinking, which of course is within the realm of possibilities.

If the gun is out, and the light is on, I think I'd have already had justification to threaten or use force, as a non-LEO. Outside of searching my own home or campsite etc, I can't think of a reason to use the light on the gun, especially if I have a handheld available.

GJM

02-13-2022, 09:42 PM

What if the drill includes identifying the target to determine whether or not you can legally draw a gun? That’s the exact drill that led to the creation of this thread. If I have to identify before drawing, I’m faster just shooting SHO with the light that is already in my hand.

After identifying the threat with your hand held, you can drop your hand held on its lanyard, put it in your pocket, put it in your mouth, or even drop it on the ground. Your one shot with your hand held in your support hand may be faster, but multiple shots will certainly be faster and more accurate with two hands on the gun. Your handgun will likely be more reliable shot with two hands, your recoil control better, your reload will be faster, and you will have an easier time dealing with a stoppage. If you do need your support hand to do something else like hold a ladder, steering wheel, door handle or dog's leash, that is easier with a WML.

joshs

02-13-2022, 09:46 PM

Yep, I drop it, in such drills if I'm starting with a handheld.

My draw time does not seem to be impacted by activating a WML. It's activated before I even finalize my sight picture. It's sort of akin to the conversation we had years ago here about how quickly you can shoot if you start with your finger on the trigger or off the trigger in a register position. The finding was that it didn't matter as there's other things in the process that take longer than moving your finger to the trigger, and likewise in this conversation there's other things that take longer than activating the WML; that would be especially true if you're using a DG switch.

Maybe it's due to my personal ergonomics; using my Glock 19M with a Surefire XC1, my thumb sits right on top of the switch when I establish my grip.

Are you starting from a neck index? My SHO draw (appendix/closed front cover) is actually faster than trying to drop the light and bring my hands together. (Even more so if you go hand on gun when you illuminate the target). I've also fallen because I later stepped on the light that I dropped once, so I don't do that anymore. Our range floor is hard.

As far as the timing to activate the light, that was more about the decision to activate the light than the time it takes to draw knowing that I'm going to activate the light. E.g., it's dark and you see something that you decide needs shot right now. I personally don't have enough reps to think that I'm going to activate the light in that situation. I'm likely going to shoot the thing I decided need shot without additional light.

TGS

02-13-2022, 09:48 PM

If you do need your support hand to do something else like hold a ladder, steering wheel, door handle or dog's leash, that is easier with a WML.

Or a loved one.

Lots of talk in the gun community about "being your family's PSD", but not much understanding of being a close protection officer. We issue the Surefire XC1 for a reason.

joshs

02-13-2022, 09:54 PM

After identifying the threat with your hand held, you can drop your hand held on its lanyard, put it in your pocket, put it in your mouth, or even drop it on the ground. Your one shot with your hand held in your support hand may be faster, but multiple shots will certainly be faster and more accurate with two hands on the gun. Your handgun will likely be more reliable shot with two hands, your recoil control better, your reload will be faster, and you will have an easier time dealing with a stoppage. If you do need your support hand to do something else like hold a ladder, steering wheel, door handle or dog's leash, that is easier with a WML.

So, I've tested this. In the time it takes me to put the light away, then draw, I can get two to three hits SHO on an A zone at 7 yards. If something needs shot right now, I'd rather get a few hits faster, than be worried about the need to get 3+ hits.

TGS

02-13-2022, 09:58 PM

Are you starting from a neck index? My SHO draw (appendix/closed front cover) is actually faster than trying to drop the light and bring my hands together. (Even more so if you go hand on gun when you illuminate the target). I've also fallen because I later stepped on the light that I dropped once, so I don't do that anymore. Our range floor is hard.

Neck index is my default position when searching with a light.

A two handed draw is much faster for me than single handed, as well as more reliable (less failure prone). I carry IWB at 3 O'Clock, closed front garment when in street clothes.

Following times are from daylight data: Carrying open front garment, I'm able to get down to 1.06 on the range. With a closed front garment with how I actually conceal, I'm around 1.3. For SHO draws, I add about a quarter to half second.

That's just the speed of getting the gun into play; that's not even talking about accuracy and speed when actually shooting in low/no-light scenarios.

When shooting, what is your draw time for a two-handed draw vs a single handed draw? I'm unsure of how you could be faster single handed, unless you're doing "gamer concealment" where the gun is practically poking out and you just need a small extension of your spine to make your shirt pop over and expose the gun. I've seen that stuff in classes, and people tend to only carry like that when trying to impress people at classes and carry in a more discreet manner with a slower draw.

BWT

02-13-2022, 10:01 PM

So, I've tested this. In the time it takes me to put the light away, then draw, I can get two to three hits SHO on an A zone at 7 yards. If something needs shot right now, I'd rather get a few hits faster, than be worried about the need to get 3+ hits.

So, outsider looking in. I use a stream light pro-tac 1U AA battery light when I have a hand held. It costs $49. If I’m going to get in a defensive shooting I figure this a drop in the bucket. How would you feel about dropping it and going to a DG switch brighter light on the gun? It sounds like this has been an item you’ve given lots of consideration. There are also other alternatives like lanyard loops that GJM has mentioned?

I’m just thinking shot recovery, longer distance shots, accuracy, transitions, being hands free with someone else. It seems like retaining the initial light after the decision to shoot has been made is an afterthought.

What’re your thoughts here?

Honestly, I’ve gotten out of the habit of carrying a handheld flashlight with a WML and this has me re-thinking that.

Shawn Dodson

02-13-2022, 10:12 PM

Shoot any timed and scored drill in dark conditions first with a hand held light, and then again with a WML, and you will have lots of data.

I'm not referring to drills, I'm referring to actual, no bullshit CCW defensive shooting incidents in which a WML/flashlight was even used and made a difference.

joshs

02-13-2022, 10:14 PM

When shooting, what is your draw time for a two-handed draw vs a single handed draw? I'm unsure of how you could be faster single handed, unless you're doing "gamer concealment" where the gun is practically poking out and you just need a small extension of your spine to make your shirt pop over and expose the gun. I've seen that stuff in classes, and people tend to only carry like that when trying to impress people at classes and carry in a more discreet manner with a slower draw.

I'll often hook my shirt with my strong hand while using the light or even go hand on gun (which is what I train to do if I'm illuminating something that I think is dangerous). I don't have enough reps trying to join my hands coming from opposite directions. I've done approximately eleventy billion surrender and hands at sides draws, but something about having one hand up and one down give me trouble. I think it's because my hands hit in a different position, and I often end up trying to build my grip while extending, so it slows me down.

I'm .9ish for a normal AIWB draw to a 7 yard A zone. My SHO cheater draw is probably 1.2ish for same. I have a lot more reps doing the identify - draw - shoot with our turning target system, so I don't have as many reps doing it on an actual timer. For me, it's more of an AMRAP comparison. I can almost always get more hits shooting SHO, unless the exposure time is very high, so I'm getting 4+ hits.

joshs

02-13-2022, 10:24 PM

Personally, I'm still suck with the old MkI Eyeball. To be clear, my comment was not a jab at you. It seems you've taken it how I intended ( :D ), but I wanted to get that out there.

I would like to hear some of those reasons though. I would think positive target ID would be a good reason to carry WML, which could be spun in a positive light in court I'd think. I have a hard time thinking of negatives, other than "he was pretending to be a cop" sorts of thinking, which of course is within the realm of possibilities.

If the gun is out, and the light is on, I think I'd have already had justification to threaten or use force, as a non-LEO. Outside of searching my own home or campsite etc, I can't think of a reason to use the light on the gun, especially if I have a handheld available.

I think the only real issue legality wise (assuming correct usage, so no gun is a flashlight stuff), is juror bias. We know that jurors can be influenced by the physical appearance of the gun (chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/viewer.html?pdfurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thejuryexpert .com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FMeyerTJESep2009Volume21No5.pdf&clen=429869&chunk=true). I'd love to rerun Glenn E. Meyer 's work with G19 with and without an optic and light to see if there is any juror bias.

I've certainly gotten the "space gun" comment when having a non-gun person shoot an pistol with optic and light. That's probably not indicative of a positive first impression of the gun.

BWT

02-13-2022, 10:26 PM

I'm not referring to drills, I'm referring to actual, no bullshit CCW defensive shooting incidents in which a WML/flashlight was even used and made a difference.

You know like most tactical instructors (I’m not going to say all because sure enough…) endorse positively identifying targets and the military is moving to issue variable powered optics partly so infantry can better see what they’re shooting at and confirm identity, right?

https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/vortex-selected-to-produce-army-ngsw-fire-control-optic/

I mean, I’m sure someone will chime in with some examples but this just seems like such an interesting argument to be having.

Shawn Dodson

02-13-2022, 10:36 PM

You know like most tactical instructors (I’m not going to say all because sure enough…) endorse positively identifying targets and the military is moving to issue variable powered optics partly so infantry can better see what they’re shooting at and confirm identity, right?

So... there's been a rampant problem of private citizens shooting innocents in CCW shootings and now a WML or flashlight is necessary? Where's the data to support this? Like I said earlier, the alleged need for a WML or flashlight to PID during a CCW defensive shooting is theoretical babble.

Trukinjp13

02-13-2022, 10:36 PM

TGS

02-13-2022, 10:37 PM

I'll often hook my shirt with my strong hand while using the light or even go hand on gun (which is what I train to do if I'm illuminating something that I think is dangerous). I don't have enough reps trying to join my hands coming from opposite directions. I've done approximately eleventy billion surrender and hands at sides draws, but something about having one hand up and one down give me trouble. I think it's because my hands hit in a different position, and I often end up trying to build my grip while extending, so it slows me down.

I always collect my hands together at the #3 position, so it makes no difference to me. No matter what the other hand is doing, both hands come to #3 before punching out.

I don't automatically go to my gun if I'm using my light to search. I use my light a lot more than I do my gun, and going to the gun every time I use my light for a search would result in lots of unpleasant interactions in real life. So, there's definitely a one-handed draw vs two-handed draw at play here, and we should be cognizant to compare apples to apples.

joshs

02-13-2022, 10:44 PM

I’m not TGS and I’m not a professional gun user. But he did give the distinction of a weapon mounted light. Also, what you’re describing is why Kyle Lamb prescribes the surefire DG switch - I don’t use one but I am looking at extended levers. But if you were asking me - my answer would be DG switch and WML. I’ve listened to him discuss this in his podcasts unfortunately I’ve heard enough of them I’m not sure which…

Does Kyle run a WML on his carry gun though? I think he just carries a 365 with a handheld. Most guys from his old line of work have ditched the DG switch too because of the ability to shoot under Nods passive with a dot. If you have GPNVGs or PVS-31As, having a white light come on when you draw your pistol sucks.

Seeing your second post - I’ve lost track of the original context of the thread and only re-read recent posts - apologies. I would say there’s probably not a perfect solution but there could be a practiced solution. For example some folks put bungee loops on their hand held lights and loop over the back of their hand - if you grabbed the light that way and then had it inside your palm, saw something that needed a weapon - you could draw and get a compromised two-handed draw with the flashlight inside. Or get a weapon light with a grip switch and drop the handheld? I don’t know which would be better but this is a very specific circumstance.

You can't have lost the original context as much as I did. I started this eight years ago, and I've been posting in it a few days without realizing I started this thread. :confused:

I dislike all the various light attachment bungees and lanyards. I use my handheld daily, and I'm never going to take the time to use the lanyard or bungee.

How are your follow ups, splits, and transitions two-handed versus one handed? I would imagine slower. Also, do you see no improvement drawing and clearing cover garments with two hands versus one?

Not as good, but I shoot SHO disproportionately better based on USPSA classifiers. Those with SHO (or WHO) shooting are usually my strongest classifiers. (Maybe gamers are just disproportionately bad at SHO and WHO shooting though :cool:).

joshs

02-13-2022, 10:47 PM

So, there's definitely a one-handed draw vs two-handed draw at play here, and we should be cognizant to compare apples to apples.

I hook my shirt whenever I use my light, unless it is for an administrative task (looking under the seat of my truck). One of the benefits of appendix is the ability to have your hand near or on gun without drawing a particular amount of attention to it.

BWT

02-13-2022, 10:48 PM

So... there's been a rampant problem of private citizens shooting innocents in CCW shootings and now a WML or flashlight is necessary? Where's the data to support this? Like I said earlier, the alleged need for a WML or flashlight to PID during a CCW defensive shooting is theoretical babble.

What do you daily carry? Googling weapons light pistol shooting pulled up a video of a police officer detailing shooting at muzzle flashes during an armed burglary in the 80’s. But then we’ll be arguing about private citizens.

joshs

02-13-2022, 10:51 PM

I live in a area that has zero ambient lighting. I keep a handheld in my vehicles and try to carry one with me. My pistols generally are always equipped with a wml.

I’ve had to use mine against 4 legged critters in the past and it was no comparison to taking the same shots with a handheld. I can’t imagine in a self defense scenario. I vastly prefer having it mounted to my carry rig. Down to simply opening the car door, it just gives you a better chance to protect yourself or control the environment around you.

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Sounds like you also need an EDC PVS-14. I do think that a WML makes more sense when dealing with dangerous animals. Since there's less risk of pointing a gun a person in an unjustified way in the middle of the woods, using a WML to identify is likely fine.

ST911

02-13-2022, 11:27 PM

At no one in particular...

WMLs offer options.

Handhelds and WMLs need to be worked together. Little training in that. Most training is use of each in isolation, not in complementary use.

Movement relative to a threat affects visual angles, lay of light and shadows, object differentiation, helping improve PID. Not much training in that either.

I like a flexible finger-ring on handhelds for retention, manipulations.

Merits of WMLs apply to CCWers as well as pros. Pros get a few more merits for the secondary tasks they must/need to perform at the same time as a light, i.e. move/aggress, comms/secondary equipment, etc. CCWers can have some of those too, less frequently or expectantly.

As @Trukinjp13 (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=6968) notes, what are your lighting conditions? More light is more better, but what are the normal lighting conditions in your day? There's a benefit of options but also increasing necessity for some.

SHO competency is undervalued. Bell curve problems are traditional, 2-handed problems but you can do good work SHO. And even GTG two-handed flashlight techniques are really only 1.5-handed shooting.

Lots of talk in the gun community about "being your family's PSD", but not much understanding of being a close protection officer.

Yeah, a catchy phrase often stopping after the go-armed box is checked.

Clusterfrack

02-13-2022, 11:36 PM

(1) Good point. Only one of the times I've used or almost used a handgun in self-defense was robbery related: a home invasion. The backcountry encounters with humans, bears, and cougars were all non-robberies.

(2) I really like tritium sights--if only to locate my gun in a dark tent. Mr_White ran some really interesting low light scenarios and I found tritium sights to be very helpful.

(3) RDS. I think they are a good idea, but not a must unless your vision requires them.

Some of the points presented are similar to others I've seen on the forum or elsewhere before and I do not necessarily disagree with them. That said, I do not understand the "hard no" on WMLs.

My questions:
1) Why is the defensive use of a firearm - outside the armed professions - routinely reduced to the scenario of someone trying to rob you?

2) Are tritium inserts on iron sights (aka night sights) a good idea?

3) Are pistol mounted red dot sights (RDS) a good idea?

My thoughts:
1) I do not believe every defensive use of a firearm revolves around the perpetrators need to "see you" or be close enough to physically take something from you.

2) I know tritium night sights work exceedingly well in transition lighting where the target may be fully visible while your standard iron sights are not.

3) An RDS equipped pistol presents a unique challenge in low-light target acquisition which revolves around the issue of sight/target over match; I do not believe this is always satisfied with current auto brightness functions and instead requires the use of an external light source such as handheld or WML (I prefer WML if I'm looking down sights and on the way to shooting).

Your thoughts?

Utm

02-14-2022, 12:02 AM

What do you daily carry? Googling weapons light pistol shooting pulled up a video of a police officer detailing shooting at muzzle flashes during an armed burglary in the 80’s. But then we’ll be arguing about private citizens.

It's very hard to compare the scenario LE would be in vs a citizen when it comes to a shooting. There's literally hundreds of videos online where we so no light being used or needed on the citizen side

Chuck Whitlock

02-14-2022, 12:29 AM

Chuck Haggard
Clusterfrack
Chuck Whitlock
joshs
TR675
breakingtime91

Some of the points presented are similar to others I've seen on the forum or elsewhere before and I do not necessarily disagree with them. That said, I do not understand the "hard no" on WMLs.

My questions:
1) Why is the defensive use of a firearm - outside the armed professions - routinely reduced to the scenario of someone trying to rob you?

2) Are tritium inserts on iron sights (aka night sights) a good idea?

3) Are pistol mounted red dot sights (RDS) a good idea?

My thoughts:
1) I do not believe every defensive use of a firearm revolves around the perpetrators need to "see you" or be close enough to physically take something from you.

2) I know tritium night sights work exceedingly well in transition lighting where the target may be fully visible while your standard iron sights are not.

3) An RDS equipped pistol presents a unique challenge in low-light target acquisition which revolves around the issue of sight/target over match; I do not believe this is always satisfied with current auto brightness functions and instead requires the use of an external light source such as handheld or WML (I prefer WML if I'm looking down sights and on the way to shooting).

Your thoughts?

In response to your bolded statement.....It isn't so much a "hard no" as it is "is the juice worth the squeeze?".

1) Answered above pretty well. Look over BBI's and Tom Givens' stats.

2) I like tritium, particularly on the front sight. I'd rather have them then not, all other things being equal.

3) I have no time behind a PMO, but am getting PMO curious. I have no plans to mill any of my current pistols, but any future purchases (with the exception of revolvers) will most likely be PMO capable.

ETA: With regard to PMLs, I personally need DG type switching to make them viable for me.

frozentundra

02-14-2022, 01:03 AM

I believe there's more legal risk than tactical value in having a WML on a CCW pistol.

Lots of theoretical babble about why a WML is useful but no hard data anywhere to back it up.

I'm not referring to drills, I'm referring to actual, no bullshit CCW defensive shooting incidents in which a WML/flashlight was even used and made a difference.

I'm curious if your belief in legal risks associated with carrying a weapon mounted light are based on data?

Are you aware of an actual CCW defensive shooting incident where a WML was a legal liability?

Not rhetorical, I'm genuinely curious because I'm not aware of such situations. If it's a real problem I should educate myself about the specifics of these kinds of cases.

Trukinjp13

02-14-2022, 06:50 AM

I have ZERO issues with carrying a wml as far as legality. I have asked multiple Leo that I know and state cops about this. They all said a clean shoot is a clean shoot. I’m sure there is a ton of shit that people put in their triggers and on their pistols that are a bigger liability.

I agree with the fact you need to carry both if you are going to have a wml. Each has their own purpose and a important one at that. I have done a lot of low light/no light shooting, in training and in the real world. And tritium sometimes is useless when there is no ambient light to make a positive id on target. With a handheld or wml I was almost just as fast with fiber front or blacked out sights. In darkness when you could only see the silhouette of the targets tritium won. But would you take that shot? Unless with absolute certainty I know that blob is a threat I am not. One of my favorite pros for tritium is finding my pistol in the dark.

I will walk my dogs a lot at night time. Usually just using the moon as lighting or a headlamp with the red on. It gets dark when you are in the thick of the woods. But that’s the best way to be in the environment. You are night lighting up the woods scaring everything away or disturbing their night time rituals. Lots of coyotes out there. So I really prefer the wml for that. I can not hold the light and manage the pups at the same time. Lots of variables to consider here.

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NH Shooter

02-14-2022, 08:10 AM

The use of light for civilian self-defense should be a course of study unto itself. There is so much more to it than what is usually discussed, even in this thread.

In any case, I'm a huge advocate of purpose-built hand held lights. By "purpose-built" I mean a light that is specifically intended to be used with or without a pistol for self-defensive purposes. Though I don't use WMLs on pistols, I can certainly appreciate the additional options they offer in a SD situation.

kjr_29

02-14-2022, 08:20 AM

Or a loved one.

Lots of talk in the gun community about "being your family's PSD", but not much understanding of being a close protection officer. We issue the Surefire XC1 for a reason.

XC-1B model? Thanks for including the family.

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BWT

02-14-2022, 08:40 AM

It's very hard to compare the scenario LE would be in vs a citizen when it comes to a shooting. There's literally hundreds of videos online where we so no light being used or needed on the citizen side

Based on what experience do you make this statement?

I always knew lights were preferable versus no lights but carried without. Heck Todd G. the founder of this forum used to carry an off weapon light and had several articles on it - I’m surprised this is such a deal here.

I searched for an instance for about 3-4 minutes and then decided I know situations in my life prompted me to get a weapon mounted light and appreciate an off weapon light.

For example, I came home early on in my marriage and home ownership and my front door was wide open. I didn’t know if someone was in my house, but I went to find out. Turns out there wasn’t. You know what would’ve been great to have in that moment? A flash light. Of any kind. I didn’t get to choose the time or place or get a chance to argue with my front door about the statistics of me needing a light. Turns out the door just needed to be fixed.

Then I had children, and I heard something downstairs that scared my wife. So, barricading in my room wasn’t an option, so I grabbed my handgun and cleared the house. I had a weapon light at that time and greatly appreciated it. I also want to be able to see if a person is in my child’s room as much information as I can. Maybe you don’t have that. Fair enough.

Then two weeks ago, my 9 month old ate what I believe was an uncooked pasta noodle and nearly choked to death. I ran upstairs and grabbed an off hand flashlight because I couldn’t see where the item was and finger sweeps were making it worse. Thank God, he swallowed it and was fine. That’s inspired me to get CPR training because I realized years of carrying a gun, two years of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu meant nothing to my small choking child. But having a light to get information was helpful but would’ve been more helpful if I had it with me because by the time I could run and grab it and get back he had swallowed it. He calmed and we cancelled the ambulance.

I look at it like this not to be melodramatic, but years ago my brother and I were headed to the gym and then to Walmart. We debated going to Walmart before the gym or after - decided after. When we got there police were everywhere and the parking lot was taped down and a helicopter was swirling. Turns out some guy had grabbed some kitchen knives from a display and was running around trying to stab people before we got there. Honestly, if we had gone to Walmart first we would’ve been there when that happened in that side of the store.

Now there’s three personal examples of having and not having a light helping in different ways. The last is an illustration to me - ego, internet posturing and debate aside. The last situation and any situation (god forbid) that finds you needing to defend yourself will not probably give you any advance warning and will look different than what you expected. I will probably have little control to it happening. But, what I can do is prepare as best I can. Now what you both think you will need (Shawn and UTM) - I don’t know. I know what I carry and recommend but, hey you guys do what you think is best.

I think it’s worth it and have seen a light be valuable and have regretted not having a light in two out of three examples.

Fair enough?

dontshakepandas

02-14-2022, 09:16 AM

Not trying to pick on you, but I don't think any of these situations provide a compelling argument for a WML for concealed carry.

For example, I came home early on in my marriage and home ownership and my front door was wide open. I didn’t know if someone was in my house, but I went to find out. Turns out there wasn’t. You know what would’ve been great to have in that moment? A flash light. Of any kind. I didn’t get to choose the time or place or get a chance to argue with my front door about the statistics of me needing a light. Turns out the door just needed to be fixed.

A weapon mounted light would definitely make trying to clear a structure easier, and unlike the next scenario in this scenario you are limited to your concealed carry gear. However, most people (myself included) aren't trained for this type of thing and even if you are clearing an entire house by yourself is not ideal. If you have reason to believe someone is in your house you are better off calling the police and letting them deal with this.

Then I had children, and I heard something downstairs that scared my wife. So, barricading in my room wasn’t an option, so I grabbed my handgun and cleared the house. I had a weapon light at that time and greatly appreciated it. I also want to be able to see if a person is in my child’s room as much information as I can. Maybe you don’t have that. Fair enough.

A weapon mounted light is absolutely useful in this situation, but if you are already home you aren't limited to the gun that you carry. I think most people would argue that having a home defense gun with a WML is a great idea, be it a long gun or handgun. In this case you get the advantages of the WML without the disadvantages that come along with it for carry purposes.

Then two weeks ago, my 9 month old ate what I believe was an uncooked pasta noodle and nearly choked to death. I ran upstairs and grabbed an off hand flashlight because I couldn’t see where the item was and finger sweeps were making it worse. Thank God, he swallowed it and was fine. That’s inspired me to get CPR training because I realized years of carrying a gun, two years of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu meant nothing to my small choking child. But having a light to get information was helpful but would’ve been more helpful if I had it with me because by the time I could run and grab it and get back he had swallowed it. He calmed and we cancelled the ambulance.

Having a handheld light on you all the time is definitely a great idea. Having multiple stashed around your house is also a great idea in case of situations like this or power outages.

I look at it like this not to be melodramatic, but years ago my brother and I were headed to the gym and then to Walmart. We debated going to Walmart before the gym or after - decided after. When we got there police were everywhere and the parking lot was taped down and a helicopter was swirling. Turns out some guy had grabbed some kitchen knives from a display and was running around trying to stab people before we got there. Honestly, if we had gone to Walmart first we would’ve been there when that happened in that side of the store.

A WML likely wouldn't have added much value in that situation as the inside of the store would have been well lit. If it had been in the parking lot it may have been useful for the police, but as a civilian you would either have enough light to tell the guy has a knife and you can take care of the situation as needed, or you wouldn't have enough light to tell he had a knife but then wouldn't be aware of the deadly threat to justify pointing your gun at people.

As it was mentioned before, there are hundreds of defensive handgun use cases captured on film and not very many where a WML would have been useful. Does that mean it wouldn't ever be useful or that it is a bad idea to have one? Definitely not.

I don't carry with a WML but do carry a Modlite with a Switchback that I can use for shooting relatively well. I've made several (probably too many) attempts to find a comfortable carry setup with a WML, but I always end up not liking the smaller underpowered lights or finding the full size lights just too bulky and uncomfortable to deal with. As new options come out (the full power but small Cloud Defensive coming out soon looks interesting) I'm sure I'll try again because even though having a WML may not be a significant advantage, I'll take every advantage I can get if it doesn't come with the discomfort penalty.

BWT

02-14-2022, 09:21 AM

Not trying to pick on you, but I don't think any of these situations provide a compelling argument for a WML for concealed carry.

A weapon mounted light would definitely make trying to clear a structure easier, and unlike the next scenario in this scenario you are limited to your concealed carry gear. However, most people (myself included) aren't trained for this type of thing and even if you are clearing an entire house by yourself is not ideal. If you have reason to believe someone is in your house you are better off calling the police and letting them deal with this.

A weapon mounted light is absolutely useful in this situation, but if you are already home you aren't limited to the gun that you carry. I think most people would argue that having a home defense gun with a WML is a great idea, be it a long gun or handgun. In this case you get the advantages of the WML without the disadvantages that come along with it for carry purposes.

Having a handheld light on you all the time is definitely a great idea. Having multiple stashed around your house is also a great idea in case of situations like this or power outages.

A WML likely wouldn't have added much value in that situation as the inside of the store would have been well lit. If it had been in the parking lot it may have been useful for the police, but as a civilian you would either have enough light to tell the guy has a knife and you can take care of the situation as needed, or you wouldn't have enough light to tell he had a knife but then wouldn't be aware of the deadly threat to justify pointing your gun at people.

As it was mentioned before, there are hundreds of defensive handgun use cases captured on film and not very many where a WML would have been useful. Does that mean it wouldn't ever be useful or that it is a bad idea to have one? Definitely not.

I don't carry with a WML but do carry a Modlite with a Switchback that I can use for shooting relatively well. I've made several (probably too many) attempts to find a comfortable carry setup with a WML, but I always end up not liking the smaller underpowered lights or finding the full size lights just too bulky and uncomfortable to deal with. As new options come out (the full power but small Cloud Defensive coming out soon looks interesting) I'm sure I'll try again because even though having a WML may not be a significant advantage, I'll take every advantage I can get if it doesn't come with the discomfort penalty.

Agreed on all counts. The last example was more of an illustration of a defensive situation is come as you are and I’m up for taking any advantage I can get. I also didn’t have a gun with me because I was going to and returning from the gym.

Same reason I started using RDO’s on some pistols (not a carry gun yet).

Was going through my house with a gun in the first example wise? Honestly, No. But, hindsight is 20/20.

But hey, they’re examples.

ETA: I re-read that and we don’t agree. But I also don’t care to keep going down this rabbit hole too much further in all due respect. I’m convinced - and that’s fine. Whatever you want to do is your decision.

All good on my end. Thanks

HCountyGuy

02-14-2022, 10:19 AM

And here I thought this topic had been moderately well-settled but hey I guess if it's not a caliber debate there's always another dead horse to beat.

Between the data we have from BBI, Tom Givens and the multitude of civilian incidents available on Active Self Protection's channel I can't say I recall a necessity for a WML in any of those where the defender was outside their home (the original context of this thread). Now, perhaps I could've missed one or two and I would welcome a correction from any of those sources.

In order to be victimized by a criminal actor, they need to be able to see you in order to be able to facilitate their assault. Now I could probably drum up some EMP + NVG utilizing badguys coming to shake you down for your change outside QT but I can't imagine why they'd choose to shake you down unless you're Jason Bourne or Jack Reacher. But then again after all the fuckery of the last two years I'm not going to completely discount any such shenanigans, so whip out your trusty people-popper with PL350 (or an o-light for "good 'nuff" ) and get to work if that happens.

As for the scenario of shining a light at sumdood's face and him calling the cops claiming you pointed a gun at him, I don't know that most people would associate a light in the face to there being a gun involved but if it's a career criminal getting a light in his face and his prior experience with a light in his face is that it's the po-leese I can see where that jump to conclusion comes from for them. But then those sorts of folks aren't typically calling 911 because then it gets the po-leese involved and they don't talk to the po-leese.

Back on topic to the whole WML for a concealed weapon topic it's all a matter of evaluating the need for such on your own criteria and being objective about it. Most folks won't be served by adding it to their carry but if you live in po-dunk nowhere or there's been a power outage and your streetlights aren't on while you're walking Fido and a bear or a bobcat comes charging at you, yeah I see the utility of the WML as a SECONDARY to using your handheld. Ole dipwad Donny trying to strong-arm you for $5 outside your local stop-n-rob may not necessitate a light to see him doing something that necessitates putting a gun in his face.

At the end of the day though, it's 'Murica and if you want to put a WML on your gun just cause it's bitchin' then by all means, go for it. Options are nice. But at the very least have a handheld. And be versed on the proper utilization on such in any case.

One thing stuck with me not long ago as far as home defense goes, and that's it would sure suck for you to shoot some shadow figure at 3 AM only for it to be your kid and their last words be "Daddy, it's me."

joshs

02-14-2022, 11:25 AM

I don't carry with a WML but do carry a Modlite with a Switchback that I can use for shooting relatively well. I've made several (probably too many) attempts to find a comfortable carry setup with a WML, but I always end up not liking the smaller underpowered lights or finding the full size lights just too bulky and uncomfortable to deal with. As new options come out (the full power but small Cloud Defensive coming out soon looks interesting) I'm sure I'll try again because even though having a WML may not be a significant advantage, I'll take every advantage I can get if it doesn't come with the discomfort penalty.

This is a good point. The WML I've used that performs as well as the handheld I carry is the TLR1 HL, but I've found that holsters with that light aren't as nearly as comfortable. The TLR7 is probably the best compromise, but it's not nearly as good of a light as my handheld. I too am looking forward to the Cloud Defensive light. I wish Streamlight would make an 18350 TLR7. They could drive it pretty hard and get close to TLR1HL performance.

The point of this thread was never to be anti-WML, just that it's not a necessary accessory for concealed carry. At the time (2008), I made that choice because the benefits of AIWB were worth it to me, and there weren't any good light bearing AIWB holsters (this is pre-Looper, so we were still modifying straight drop IWB holsters) or small lights with decent output. Even the X200 was being rapidly outclassed in output by early Cree led drop ins.

Glenn E. Meyer

02-14-2022, 11:39 AM

That has happened several times. I recall the interview with a Dad. He and his wife go out. The daughter is supposed to be at a friend's house. She comes home early. Decides to play a prank. Leaves the front door ajar and hides. Dad arrives and see that. Gets the 357 mag to clear. He enters. She jumps out and goes BOO. He goes Bang - COM. She dies in his arms saying - Daddy I love you.

I would never go into my house if we were both out and I found the door open. If my wife and kids were inside - still call the cops and tell them. Might yell the law is on the way. However, this is debatable given some classic instances of the law not entering. I might go in.

Probably can find the interview on the web somewhere. It is heart breaking. More tragically, it is not unknown for the accidental shooter to kill themselves on the spot. There as a story of a small boy who did that after accidentally shooting his sister. Called 911 and then bang. Recently, https://www.newsweek.com/man-warding-off-bear-accidentally-shot-brother-dead-killed-himself-authorities-say-1677973

I carry a hand held and it has had much real world utility. I note from being a 'terroist' in an exercise and hidden away - the entering officers with lights were easy targets. I'm told there are techniques to avoid such. In one case, as they entered with their lights, I used mine for confusion and distraction.

joshs

02-14-2022, 11:49 AM

I note from being a 'terroist' in an exercise and hidden away - the entering officers with lights were easy targets. I'm told there are techniques to avoid such. In one case, as they entered with their lights, I used mine for confusion and distraction.

Clearing out determined bad guys who get time to set an ambush, inside a structure, without taking casualties is nearly impossible. Even for those with the best mindset, training, and gear (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Qusay_and_Uday_Hussein). Lights or no lights, that's a bad day.

frozentundra

02-14-2022, 11:51 AM

I know of exactly zero incidents involving folks outside of the house in a CCW incident where a WML was needed, or any light for that matter.

Between the data we have from BBI, Tom Givens and the multitude of civilian incidents available on Active Self Protection's channel I can't say I recall a necessity for a WML in any of those where the defender was outside their home (the original context of this thread). Now, perhaps I could've missed one or two and I would welcome a correction from any of those sources.

Does any of the data even indicate a necessity for a handheld light? Do we have this kind of 'evidence' that it's a good idea to carry any flashlight? Do we need this kind of evidence to make that determination? I'm not so sure. I think the added capability is desirable regardless of precedent.

Do i need a WML for ccw? Absolutely not. But.....

With this newest crop of gizmos, I am only giving up 1.5 - 2.5 oz in added weight, and I am gaining capability for 300 lumens, or 500 lumens with green laser, respectively. The holsters are actually more comfortable for strong side carry and are no less concealable. The extra weight isn't enough to notice on my hip, but 2.5 oz directly under the muzzle seems to make the gun shoot just a hair softer.

I am giving up nothing but money. I am gaining in comfort, gaining a significant potential for low-light capability, and sacrificing no concealability. If I don't need it, I won't attempt to turn it on and nothing is lost or sacrificed. If situation dictates, I can thumb the button and bring a latent capability to bear. If the unit broke, and for some reason I couldn't fix/replace it, I wouldn't even choose to alter the configuration. I would keep the dead light on the gun indefinitely so I could continue to use the more comfortable holster.

How much evidence do I need of precedent when facing this new empirical reality? Times change.

joshs

02-14-2022, 12:00 PM

Does any of the data even indicate a necessity for a handheld light?

I think the cases of homeowners searching with a gun and no light, only to kill a loved one, make a very strong case for the need of a handheld. That's probably my most likely searching/shooting problem that could involve a light, and I prefer searching with a handheld in that situation. If I get startled, I'd rather have the muzzle averted and not need to have the gun pointed in a direction where I'm searching.

AMC

02-14-2022, 12:11 PM

I haven't read this whole thread, but many of the posts express concern about "Pointing a firearm" at a suspect while using the WML to search or ID. This can be a legit concern, but points out the obvious need for proper training in the use of a WML. If you're pointing your gun at everything you're looking at, you're doing it wrong. The TV/movies technique of searching in a "Contact Ready" type position is the wrong way. When using a WML with high lumens, you shouldn't need to point the light directly at a subject to PID them.

This isn't to say that a WML takes the place of a handheld. You need both. But these days there are Compact WMLs that are just so convenient.....why wouldn't you?

YMMV.

medmo

02-14-2022, 12:25 PM

The utility of having a WML on a concealed carry for me? I can better see and identify a potential target. I can more accurately and rapidly get rounds onto that target if punching holes into that target is required. I live out in the middle of no where so after sundown it is REALLY dark. Some nights you can barely see your hand in front of your face not too far from the front door. I have a TLR-something mounted on everything I carry. Getting a solid AIWB set up for most brand/model pistols and WMLs isn't difficult in today's market. I carry a ProTac for general purpose lighting and don't use the WML for that application.

Utm

02-14-2022, 12:25 PM

Based on what experience do you make this statement?

I always knew lights were preferable versus no lights but carried without. Heck Todd G. the founder of this forum used to carry an off weapon light and had several articles on it - I’m surprised this is such a deal here.

I searched for an instance for about 3-4 minutes and then decided I know situations in my life prompted me to get a weapon mounted light and appreciate an off weapon light.

For example, I came home early on in my marriage and home ownership and my front door was wide open. I didn’t know if someone was in my house, but I went to find out. Turns out there wasn’t. You know what would’ve been great to have in that moment? A flash light. Of any kind. I didn’t get to choose the time or place or get a chance to argue with my front door about the statistics of me needing a light. Turns out the door just needed to be fixed.

Then I had children, and I heard something downstairs that scared my wife. So, barricading in my room wasn’t an option, so I grabbed my handgun and cleared the house. I had a weapon light at that time and greatly appreciated it. I also want to be able to see if a person is in my child’s room as much information as I can. Maybe you don’t have that. Fair enough.

Then two weeks ago, my 9 month old ate what I believe was an uncooked pasta noodle and nearly choked to death. I ran upstairs and grabbed an off hand flashlight because I couldn’t see where the item was and finger sweeps were making it worse. Thank God, he swallowed it and was fine. That’s inspired me to get CPR training because I realized years of carrying a gun, two years of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu meant nothing to my small choking child. But having a light to get information was helpful but would’ve been more helpful if I had it with me because by the time I could run and grab it and get back he had swallowed it. He calmed and we cancelled the ambulance.

I look at it like this not to be melodramatic, but years ago my brother and I were headed to the gym and then to Walmart. We debated going to Walmart before the gym or after - decided after. When we got there police were everywhere and the parking lot was taped down and a helicopter was swirling. Turns out some guy had grabbed some kitchen knives from a display and was running around trying to stab people before we got there. Honestly, if we had gone to Walmart first we would’ve been there when that happened in that side of the store.

Now there’s three personal examples of having and not having a light helping in different ways. The last is an illustration to me - ego, internet posturing and debate aside. The last situation and any situation (god forbid) that finds you needing to defend yourself will not probably give you any advance warning and will look different than what you expected. I will probably have little control to it happening. But, what I can do is prepare as best I can. Now what you both think you will need (Shawn and UTM) - I don’t know. I know what I carry and recommend but, hey you guys do what you think is best.

I think it’s worth it and have seen a light be valuable and have regretted not having a light in two out of three examples.

Fair enough?
A handheld light should be carried 100% of the time. In my opinion a wml is not needed for an edc gun. A home defense gun or duty gun? Absolutely. But I have yet to see a scenario play out in a citizen involved shooting where a wml was used or needed. Either the defender is reacting to someone in close proximity and an attack has already launched or natural lighting is enough to id your target

GJM

02-14-2022, 12:34 PM

The odds of needing a gun to get through my day are infinitesimal, but the odds of needing a handheld flashlight to get through my day are nearly 100 percent. People tend to react poorly when you pull your EDC to peer into a cowling on an engine preflight, or any of the many other tasks of daily living requiring a light.

HCountyGuy

02-14-2022, 12:53 PM

Does any of the data even indicate a necessity for a handheld light? Do we have this kind of 'evidence' that it's a good idea to carry any flashlight? Do we need this kind of evidence to make that determination? I'm not so sure. I think the added capability is desirable regardless of precedent.

Do i need a WML for ccw? Absolutely not. But.....

With this newest crop of gizmos, I am only giving up 1.5 - 2.5 oz in added weight, and I am gaining capability for 300 lumens, or 500 lumens with green laser, respectively. The holsters are actually more comfortable for strong side carry and are no less concealable. The extra weight isn't enough to notice on my hip, but 2.5 oz directly under the muzzle seems to make the gun shoot just a hair softer.

I am giving up nothing but money. I am gaining in comfort, gaining a significant potential for low-light capability, and sacrificing no concealability. If I don't need it, I won't attempt to turn it on and nothing is lost or sacrificed. If situation dictates, I can thumb the button and bring a latent capability to bear. If the unit broke, and for some reason I couldn't fix/replace it, I wouldn't even choose to alter the configuration. I would keep the dead light on the gun indefinitely so I could continue to use the more comfortable holster.

How much evidence do I need of precedent when facing this new empirical reality? Times change.

A light in general is going to be of far more utility in most people's life than a firearm. As GJM pointed out, people tend to frown on one whipping out their favorite people-popper just to peer at something that you can't see well.

The basis of this thread was the NECESSITY of a WML for Joe Schmoe trying not to get schwacked outside Wal-Mart by meth-head Mike trying to shake them down for pocket change. I'm a big advocate of do whatever the hell you want but in the context of the presented query we see it's not necessary. Now of course we could go down the rabbit-hole of how much do any of us need to carry a gun at all but then we're just into discourse for the sake of.

If you've decided you're comfortable with doing "x" and there's nothing lost, then drive on and you do you. I suppose me and some of the others are just in the camp of old men yelling at clouds when most folks are running WMLs with no understanding of how to do so properly (it's for the 'Gram) and tend to forget it's a GUN with a light attached and treat it as simply a lighting source. Trust me, I get the hankering every now and then to plunk down some coin on an X300 and a Phlster Floodlight but then I look at how much ammo I could buy instead and I'm trying to game some USPSA and need bullets. Maybe I'll get kilt in da streetz, but I've made my priorities and am happy. If you've done the same, drive on.

medmo

02-14-2022, 12:58 PM

People tend to react poorly when you pull your EDC to peer into a cowling on an engine preflight, or any of the many other tasks of daily living requiring a light.

Reminds me of some people who use their rifle scope as binoculars.

Mark D

02-14-2022, 01:08 PM

So, to recap...

1. A hand-held light is essential for most instances where extra illumination is needed.

2. For most robberies, there needs to be enough ambient light for the criminal to see and maneuver on the victim.

3. With most WML you don't need to point the weapon directly at a thing to illuminate/PID that thing. (Especially indoors). In fact, poining the WML at everything you're looking at is improper use of the WML.

4. When it comes to actually shooting in low light, most will shoot better using a two-handed grip and WML compared to using SHO and a WML in the non-dominant hand.

5. Many of the current WML are small and light enough that they can be added to a CCW pistol without incurring a lot of extra bulk and weight. Modern kydex holsters help in this regard.

Did I miss anything?

.

HCountyGuy

02-14-2022, 01:12 PM

GJM

02-14-2022, 01:19 PM

So, to recap...

Did I miss anything?

.

Beware the man with just one light -- a carry rotation of lights will get you killed for certain.

Mark D

02-14-2022, 01:22 PM

So... there's been a rampant problem of private citizens shooting innocents in CCW shootings and now a WML or flashlight is necessary? Where's the data to support this? Like I said earlier, the alleged need for a WML or flashlight to PID during a CCW defensive shooting is theoretical babble.

Certainly Tom Given's dataset, or Tom Corria's footage tends to support your statement.

That said, a criminal opened fire on me from a position of darkness while I was fully illuminated in my doorway. Fortunately, he missed with the two or three shots he fired. I would have welcomed a WML on my handgun that night.

joshs

02-14-2022, 01:24 PM

3. With most WML you don't need to point the weapon directly at a thing to illuminate/PID that thing. (Especially indoors). In fact, poining the WML at everything you're looking at is improper use of the WML.

5. Many of the current WML are small and light enough that they can be added to a CCW pistol without incurring a lot of extra bulk and weight. Modern kydex holsters help in this regard.

I don't think that these two quite coexist yet. The newest gen of high candela lights from Malkoff, Modlite, Cloud (and probably Surefire's new turbo) work really well for ceiling and floor bounce. I don't think we're quite there yet for the smaller single-cell pistol lights. A TLR7 could probably be modded to meet the criteria, but it would drain a 16340 very quickly. A dedicated 18350 version would work.

joshs

02-14-2022, 01:26 PM

Beware the man with just one light -- a carry rotation of lights will get you killed for certain.

Eh, I carry a Back Up Handheld on my keychain, so technically I have two lights. This may unfortunately get me killed in the streets.

GJM

02-14-2022, 01:27 PM

TGS

02-14-2022, 01:36 PM

Beware the man with just one light -- a carry rotation of lights will get you killed for certain.

Someone get this man a drink.

:cool:

TC215

02-14-2022, 01:37 PM

I love it when guys who carry a gun, which statistics say they'll never need, balk at carrying additional equipment (extra mag, WML, handheld light) because statistics say they won't need it.

I posted a thread a couple months ago where a citizen was in a shooting, and ended up having to shoot at muzzle flashes because he lacked a WML or any other light.

People tend to react poorly when you pull your EDC to peer into a cowling on an engine preflight.

I'm giving night instruction in the XCub tomorrow, and know how I'll be conducting the preflight now.

frozentundra

02-14-2022, 01:38 PM

I think the cases of homeowners searching with a gun and no light, only to kill a loved one, make a very strong case for the need of a handheld. That's probably my most likely searching/shooting problem that could involve a light, and I prefer searching with a handheld in that situation. If I get startled, I'd rather have the muzzle averted and not need to have the gun pointed in a direction where I'm searching.

I was referring specifically to CCW context. I totally agree about the utility of handheld lights for civilians, and I find those cases absoluetly heartbreaking.

There seems to be an idea here that WMLs are a inappropriate due to a lack of evidence of real world CCW employment. I'm just not sure we're applying the same standards for evidence. Is there data indicating it's a good idea for civilians to use them inside the home? Is there evidence of situations where handheld flashlights are useful outside the home, and if not does that mean we shouldn't carry them? Are there actual examples of legal liability for civilian WML use, or is it all purely theoretical?

I honestly don't know the definitive answer to any of those questions. What I do have is empirical experience regarding the ways various lights help me see in the dark. Handheld lights are a valuable tool in my life and anyone could see why. Experiencing for myself the increased low/no light ability to make accurate hits on 5" black circles and 3x5 index cards with a WML/laser is, perhaps, not to be discounted in the face of this evidence vacuum. I wouldn't go out of my way to carry one, but now I don't have to because it's easier to carry one than not.

On a slightly irreverent note, I'd like to point out that there is no evidence that invisible, phase shifted aliens aren't following me around and collecting my farts to sell on the intergalactic black market. My intuition and empirical experience will have to serve me well in lieu of evidence here. :p

BWT

02-14-2022, 01:41 PM

Certainly Tom Given's dataset, or Tom Corria's footage tends to support your statement.

That said, a criminal opened fire on me from a position of darkness while I was fully illuminated in my doorway. Fortunately, he missed with the two or three shots he fired. I would have welcomed a WML on my handgun that night.

Honestly, that’s a valid point as well.

Another thing for most functions your cell phone light (I’d assume most people have smart phones) would be just as effective as a hand held for working on cars or whatever. I’m constantly capturing data off of servers, switching/networking infrastructure with a smart phone and it has a camera.

When would 300+ Lumen light versus whatever’s in my iPhone not be sufficient?

I think you’ve offered an example of where being shot at while being illuminated and not having a flashlight put you in a deficit? Can you elaborate on this experience?

I say this honestly, I see flash lights as good better best. Having a flash light of any kind? Keychain/pocket? Okay, good. Have a substantial dedicated tactical light such as a G2 or modern equivalent with a pocket clip that’s easily reachable? Better. Having a WML with 1000+ lumens and a hand held? Best.

But so is having a spare magazine, a tourniquet, having fixed blade versus folding, etc., etc. some kind of training, etc. I’ll tell you right now I don’t carry all of these things.

To me, for the task of shooting with a handgun WML is best and I’ll get by with my iPhone light for messing with whatever. But! The bigger the gun the less likely to carry - so that’s why it took me about 10+ years before finally carrying and buying a WML.

Mark D

02-14-2022, 01:53 PM

Honestly, that’s a valid point as well.

I think you’ve offered an example of where being shot at while being illuminated and not having a flashlight put you in a deficit? Can you elaborate on this experience?

Short version - I interrupted some dudes who had broken into my car, which was parked on the curb. They started running down a dark street, then one guy stopped and opened fire on me and a friend while we (foolishly) stood in the lighted doorway. Similar to the incident referenced by @TC215 (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=11761), the only visual reference I had was muzzle flashes. Probably an outlier event, but informative to me, nonetheless.

ETA: For whatever it's worth, I like TLR8's on my G19's. It's a pretty small light with decent output, and I find the laser to be extremely fast in poor light.

frozentundra

02-14-2022, 02:01 PM

A light in general is going to be of far more utility in most people's life than a firearm. As GJM pointed out, people tend to frown on one whipping out their favorite people-popper just to peer at something that you can't see well.

The basis of this thread was the NECESSITY of a WML for Joe Schmoe trying not to get schwacked outside Wal-Mart by meth-head Mike trying to shake them down for pocket change. I'm a big advocate of do whatever the hell you want but in the context of the presented query we see it's not necessary. Now of course we could go down the rabbit-hole of how much do any of us need to carry a gun at all but then we're just into discourse for the sake of.

If you've decided you're comfortable with doing "x" and there's nothing lost, then drive on and you do you. I suppose me and some of the others are just in the camp of old men yelling at clouds when most folks are running WMLs with no understanding of how to do so properly (it's for the 'Gram) and tend to forget it's a GUN with a light attached and treat it as simply a lighting source. Trust me, I get the hankering every now and then to plunk down some coin on an X300 and a Phlster Floodlight but then I look at how much ammo I could buy instead and I'm trying to game some USPSA and need bullets. Maybe I'll get kilt in da streetz, but I've made my priorities and am happy. If you've done the same, drive on.

I thought the basis of the thread was the UTILITY of a WML for concealed carry? I missed the part about the necessity. I don't think anyone has suggested they are more useful or replace a handheld flashlight?

I was totally on your side of the fence before the current crop of compact light/lasers hit the market. I used to think it was a combination of LARPing and masochism. It seems to me the utility/encumbrance ratio has dropped to the point of being no more LARPish/masochistic than carrying a pistol at all. And for some reason I feel the need to post about it on this internet thread. Probably I'm just bored and should go outside and yell at the clouds instead. :)

Shawn Dodson

02-14-2022, 02:06 PM

Shawn Dodson

02-14-2022, 02:12 PM

I love it when guys who carry a gun, which statistics say they'll never need, balk at carrying additional equipment (extra mag, WML, handheld light) because statistics say they won't need it.

I posted a thread a couple months ago where a citizen was in a shooting, and ended up having to shoot at muzzle flashes because he lacked a WML or any other light.

I'm giving night instruction in the XCub tomorrow, and know how I'll be conducting the preflight now.

There are plenty of examples of people being killed when they didn't have a gun for defense. There are very few examples, if any, of private citizens being shot or killed because they didn't have a WML on their CCW pistol.

Glenn E. Meyer

02-14-2022, 02:12 PM

Just for grins. Anyone remember the fad of strobe lights that paralyzed your opponent into seizures and puking! That seems to gone away.

Shawn Dodson

02-14-2022, 02:19 PM

Glenn E. Meyer

02-14-2022, 02:33 PM

NTI in the 360 shoothouse. I'm waiting for my turn. My partner on his run, comes out and says: Glenn, I shot my son.

Said photograph life sized target of son was behind a show curtain. Partner cleared the curtain, saw 'son' - bang.

Funny partner story. I'm in a wheel chair in a pseudo hospital. Gun hilarity breaks out. Partner is supposed to wheel me out in the uproar. Very hard to do over a patch of gravel. When we are done, I tell my partner who is a reverend - next time you yell: Heal. I will yell: Hallelujah. You yell: Amen!

I leap up, healed and we GTFO of the fire fight.

I do recall a period in IDPA when some folks were yelling verbal challenges at the target.

HCountyGuy

02-14-2022, 03:36 PM

I thought the basis of the thread was the UTILITY of a WML for concealed carry? I missed the part about the necessity. I don't think anyone has suggested they are more useful or replace a handheld flashlight?

I was totally on your side of the fence before the current crop of compact light/lasers hit the market. I used to think it was a combination of LARPing and masochism. It seems to me the utility/encumbrance ratio has dropped to the point of being no more LARPish/masochistic than carrying a pistol at all. And for some reason I feel the need to post about it on this internet thread. Probably I'm just bored and should go outside and yell at the clouds instead. :)

Ah, I forgot that exact thread basis. My apologies, 20 lashes for me.

Yeah I certainly see the appeal what with the more compact, capable lights like the TLR7A and the like. Hell, I may end up getting one myself since there's not any huge real-estate takeover. I'm sure once I do that somebody will put out a 1000 lumen guide-rod drop-in for a Glock.

Joe Mac

02-14-2022, 03:38 PM

You know what is dirt cheap, reliable, brighter than the "El Kabong" SL-20 I began my police career with, and small enough that there's no reason to ever be without one?

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07DLRK7Q5

I prefer to also have a larger light with me, but you could certainly identify a threat with this at most defensive ranges, if a light was needed for such.

HCountyGuy

02-14-2022, 03:40 PM

I posted a thread a couple months ago where a citizen was in a shooting, and ended up having to shoot at muzzle flashes because he lacked a WML or any other light.

Which incident was that?

Clark Jackson

02-14-2022, 03:42 PM

In response to your bolded statement.....It isn't so much a "hard no" as it is "is the juice worth the squeeze?".

1) Answered above pretty well. Look over BBI's and Tom Givens' stats.

2) I like tritium, particularly on the front sight. I'd rather have them then not, all other things being equal.

3) I have no time behind a PMO, but am getting PMO curious. I have no plans to mill any of my current pistols, but any future purchases (with the exception of revolvers) will most likely be PMO capable.

ETA: With regard to PMLs, I personally need DG type switching to make them viable for me.

Thanks for the response Chuck, I appreciate your time. Caveat: Nothing below is directed at you or any other person, but rather at the discussion at hand. I feel obligated to add this statement because I want there to be no confusion that I am challenging a concept, not an individual. I want to make my intent to discuss concepts, not personalities, abundantly clear and avoid the derailment of an otherwise useful conversion.

I disagree with Tom Givens and BehindBlueI's data/stats as blueprints for every gunfight anyone will ever face. I do not challenge the data/stats presented by Tom/BBI, but I do challenge the use of that information as the arbiter of all gunfight training and/or equipment decisions.

None of the gunfights I was personally present for matched up with Tom/BBIs data/stats and that is both okay and to be expected. A smarter man than I once told me: "every gunfight is the same and every gunfight is different." Pretty true from what I've experienced personally and from what I've seen/heard second hand.

All said, data/stats gathered from others (or through the much more powerful medium of personal experience) are indicators and not absolutes. These should inform training/equipment decisions, but not dogmatically dictate them.

Making a personal choice is just that and I have no problem with anyone's personal training/equipment choices. However, we should not seek validation of personal choices by inappropriately applying data/stats (someone else's fight or even your own previous fight/s) to the unknown future fight. I believe too many of our personal equipment/training choices are unduly influenced by convenience over sapience. After all, comfort wants us dead.

To your point on DG type switches: for those without ogre sized hands, I highly recommend the PHLster ARC Enhanced WML Switches (https://www.phlsterholsters.com/shop/arc-enhanced-wml-switches/) for both TLR1 and X300U variant lights.

TC215

02-14-2022, 03:43 PM

Which incident was that?

It’s in the site supporter sub-forum:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?50976-Carry-a-spare-mag-and-a-flashlight

TR675

02-14-2022, 05:07 PM

Chuck Haggard
Clusterfrack
Chuck Whitlock
joshs
TR675
breakingtime91

I don't recall what my opinion was nor do I recall having an opinion on this topic. I'm sure it was well thought out and persuasive, though.

I haven't posted much in years. I hope everyone is doing well!

TC215

02-14-2022, 05:26 PM

I’d like to hear SoCalDep ‘s opinion.

BehindBlueI's

02-14-2022, 08:57 PM

Thanks for the response Chuck, I appreciate your time. Caveat: Nothing below is directed at you or any other person, but rather at the discussion at hand. I feel obligated to add this statement because I want there to be no confusion that I am challenging a concept, not an individual. I want to make my intent to discuss concepts, not personalities, abundantly clear and avoid the derailment of an otherwise useful conversion.

I disagree with Tom Givens and BehindBlueI's data/stats as blueprints for every gunfight anyone will ever face. I do not challenge the data/stats presented by Tom/BBI, but I do challenge the use of that information as the arbiter of all gunfight training and/or equipment decisions.

None of the gunfights I was personally present for matched up with Tom/BBIs data/stats and that is both okay and to be expected. A smarter man than I once told me: "every gunfight is the same and every gunfight is different." Pretty true from what I've experienced personally and from what I've seen/heard second hand.

All said, data/stats gathered from others (or through the much more powerful medium of personal experience) are indicators and not absolutes. These should inform training/equipment decisions, but not dogmatically dictate them.

Making a personal choice is just that and I have no problem with anyone's personal training/equipment choices. However, we should not seek validation of personal choices by inappropriately applying data/stats (someone else's fight or even your own previous fight/s) to the unknown future fight. I believe too many of our personal equipment/training choices are unduly influenced by convenience over sapience. After all, comfort wants us dead.

To your point on DG type switches: for those without ogre sized hands, I highly recommend the PHLster ARC Enhanced WML Switches (https://www.phlsterholsters.com/shop/arc-enhanced-wml-switches/) for both TLR1 and X300U variant lights.

I assume you 'mentioned' me to get my input. My stats are not meant to be all encompassing, and are *expressly and repeatedly presented as a specific subset*. They are random crimes in which the defender is not a criminal doing criminal shit, are not domestic in nature, are not targeted for occupational reasons (gas station clerk, armored car guard), etc. Of course there are outliers. If you're at a concert in Las Vegas when some asshole starts shooting from a hotel window, that's an outlier. In the event I go to a movie theater, I actually do make sure I have a WML because of the tiny tiny fraction of an increased risk of an active shooter in a dark environment. I can see more of a use in hiking/outdoorsy pursuits with predator concerns as well. Niches exist.

I'm not sure what convenience over sapience means, but frankly if we're not concerned with comfort than concealable body armor would make a lot more losers into winners than WMLs will. I am not concerned with a 100% solution because it's unobtainable. I routinely disregard infinitesimal risk in many aspects of my life for the convenience, the fun, the cost, etc. I don't have to ignore what the numbers tell me to be honest with myself about that.

GJM

02-14-2022, 09:23 PM

Walking around outside at night with bears around, you want a weapon light on everything. When there are noises around the tent at night, you go out with everything turned on, trying to turn night into day.

MickAK

02-14-2022, 09:53 PM

This isn't to say that a WML takes the place of a handheld. You need both. But these days there are Compact WMLs that are just so convenient.....why wouldn't you?

YMMV.

Because it's more 'stuff' that has to be vetted, trained with, made automatic in it's use and absolutely reliable in it's implementation.

It's always a balance. We've all seen the guy that is constantly adding the latest stuff without putting in the time to train with it and has surprising failures when it counts. We've all seen the guy that is 'I've always been doing it this way' and is missing out on really good new innovations, and if he does start adding stuff he's so far behind the curve he never catches up and just gives up on gaining capability.

You want to land somewhere in the middle, and have a good idea of how much time you actually have to add new stuff while staying solid with what has been working.

SoCalDep

02-14-2022, 10:22 PM

I’d like to hear SoCalDep ‘s opinion.

I carry a gun with a WML. I don't have to use it. I can use it if I want.

The idea people will shoot at the light... could be (and has been) a thing in certain circumstances, if we are to believe that WMLs are unnecessary for CCW because as a targeted victim of random crime a WML is unnecessary (as some stats claim), the suspect also can see the victim and therefore the presence of a light as a target indicator is laughable. The person already "targeted" is THE target indicator. I've seen a bunch of WMLs shot... In perfect lighting conditions, including one of my own (when not turned on) in a force-on-force situation. We tend to put guns and lights and hands in front of us when we engage in gunplay and all those things tend to get shot.

Stats can provide information and can be used to mislead or can be misinterpreted, and arguments citing those stats can be misinterpreted as well. (Some people get accused of making stats "arguments" when they are merely reporting information that's subject to interpretation.)

The light may not be necessary in my situation. My situation may never occur. I don't find the light to be a major issue, so I'd rather have it. My carry gun is my HD gun. I can illuminate without pointing a gun at a person because I actually know how to manipulate a WML and have trained with it. I've also trained a lot of people (thousands) and my training program has trained tens of thousands of people on the use of weapon-mounted lights and low light engagements. I've conducted studies and presented information in front of executives and civilian oversight from one of the largest law enforcement agencies in the country regarding WMLs, pressure switches, and low light. That's cool and all, but all that may not apply to "you".

Even trained individuals very frequently fail to manipulate a hand-held light correctly during an engagement. The body cam videos are plenty. We've myelinated a specific grip and more times than not the handheld flashlight that is supposedly so much more useful than a WML will be pointed at the ground as we try to achieve the thing (grip) we've made automatic.

Oh yea... I carry a hand-held light too. In fact, I carry two of them. One is in the ankle trauma kit that I'm also super-unlikely to need. I like options, and I find that the WML gives me options without a lot of effort. So do handhelds... So I carry both and really don't care what anyone else thinks about that. You shouldn't either. You should make your own choice based on your environment, lifestyle, needs, and threats.

JCL

02-15-2022, 04:24 AM

I love it when guys who carry a gun, which statistics say they'll never need, balk at carrying additional equipment (extra mag, WML, handheld light) because statistics say they won't need it....

Valid point, although the potential utility of the firearm in a time of need is orders of magnitude greater than an extra mag or light. As a civilian out and about it's difficult to imagine a situation where a WML would be advantageous. A WML on a carry gun without an accompanying hand-held would be a spectacularly bad idea. FWIW I've used ~500 lumen lights three times now to reinforce the notion of my personal space or to change the trajectory of an interaction with a fellow human. That capability goes right out the window if the only light you have is attached to a pistol.

I think that the calculus changes around the home, at least for my living situation. Ever mindful of the fact that a light is also a beacon that says "here i am," anybody in my dwelling without an invitation or slinking around on my property in hours of darkness is up to no good, and if decide that I need to illuminate them I'd prefer to be pointing a gun at them too. The standard disclaimers about proper trigger discipline obviously apply. The folks joking about NODs are actually on to the best possible solution in a lot of respects, but oh man, good luck explaining that one to a west coast jury in the event of a shooting.

It was an off-line discussion that I had with Clusterfrack that prompted him to resurrect this thread. Thanks to everyone who weighed in. I was speculating on whether or not someone lit up with a modern LED handgun light could determine that it was attached to a handgun. The context of the discussion was life in a city where a small band of atypical provocateurs has succeeded in essentially eliminating routine aspects of police work, which definitely sends the wrong message to the thousands of of feral humans infesting our neighborhoods. Theft is endemic, as are weapons ranging from prison shanks to firearms. As such, the original question is moot, although we will be coming up with a plan to safely gather some empirical observations later this week.

NH Shooter

02-15-2022, 07:47 AM

FWIW I've used ~500 lumen lights three times now to reinforce the notion of my personal space or to change the trajectory of an interaction with a fellow human.

This is a great example of use of light. While positively identifying a potential threat is a common theme in these discussions, it certainly isn't the only practical use.

Using light for situational awareness is IMO at the top of the practical-use list. If I'm traversing a dark area, the handheld is already in the support hand and with a grip that would be appropriate for use with a pistol. As JCL states above, not only is the light providing illumination for navigation and perhaps to PID a potential threat, but is also signaling the fact to others that my SA is fully engaged and I am actively assessing my surroundings. This of course is at the polar opposite on the awareness spectrum of those who have their face buried in a smart phone, making themselves a prime target.

Just like repetitions with the pistol, I get daily repetitions with my EDC light walking the dogs before sunrise and after sunset. I purposely carry and operate the light the same way as if I had to draw the pistol, and (in the privacy of my back yard) do several reps of extending my arms into a firing grip sans the pistol using the Harries technique.

Situational awareness supplemented with purposeful use of light is in itself a powerful deterrent to predators.

Trukinjp13

02-15-2022, 07:48 AM

I think there are far too many hypothetical situations. What if’s and what not. You can dry fire a light same as a pistol. Not that complicated to train correct usage of spill without directly aiming.

Weigh out the factors involved in its function and if it may help you. If you verify that it would indeed help and not hinder. Then why not? How much shit shit do we carry for preparedness? How much do we train for something that may never happen?

Can you use the wml to aid in a shooting?
Does your environment warrant a wml?
Is it really that much worse to conceal?
Can you easily manipulate the switching?
Are you willing to train with it?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Joe S

02-15-2022, 08:23 AM

How much shit shit do we carry for preparedness?

I've always considered something like the 5 C's for survival to be a good guide: cutting, combustion, cover, containers, and cordage.

The combustion part that means fire starting capability I always took to mean illumination in civilization, as you were less likely to need the protection from hypothermia, but more likely to be in REAL darkness, both due to man made structures.

Also, in the wilderness, a fire can mean Communication, so your civilized alternative is a phone for that aspect.

Cutting means just that, and maybe a multitool makes more sense for some than a machete or hatchet.

Cover involves dressing appropriately for social and physical environment, including shoes you can reasonably walk in.

Containers is just having your stuff organized, carryable and accessible.

Cordage at first seems a little outdated, until you need it. Maybe not as critical as in the bush, as it's easier to scavenge inside the city walls, but still can be useful.

Sorry for the thread drift, but I thought it might be interesting for some.

GJM

02-15-2022, 09:44 AM

Clark Jackson

02-15-2022, 10:20 AM

I assume you 'mentioned' me to get my input. My stats are not meant to be all encompassing, and are *expressly and repeatedly presented as a specific subset*. They are random crimes in which the defender is not a criminal doing criminal shit, are not domestic in nature, are not targeted for occupational reasons (gas station clerk, armored car guard), etc. Of course there are outliers. If you're at a concert in Las Vegas when some asshole starts shooting from a hotel window, that's an outlier. In the event I go to a movie theater, I actually do make sure I have a WML because of the tiny tiny fraction of an increased risk of an active shooter in a dark environment. I can see more of a use in hiking/outdoorsy pursuits with predator concerns as well. Niches exist.

I'm not sure what convenience over sapience means, but frankly if we're not concerned with comfort than concealable body armor would make a lot more losers into winners than WMLs will. I am not concerned with a 100% solution because it's unobtainable. I routinely disregard infinitesimal risk in many aspects of my life for the convenience, the fun, the cost, etc. I don't have to ignore what the numbers tell me to be honest with myself about that.

Your name and Tom Givens name, along with your respective data sets, were cited in a previous post in a manner that did not actively notify either of you. I do not believe this was malicious, but when I mention someone in my response I consider it a courtesy to do it in a way that provides active notification to them. I do not always remember to do so and I am trying to be more cognizant of this moving forward. That said, I was not seeking your input specifically, but given your forum activity and the information you often share, it was a logical assumption you would provide some sort of input; thank you for taking the time to add to the conversation.

I appreciate your statement about the information and that it is not all encompassing - I could not agree more. This was part of the point I was alluding to in my previous post. I believe too many people inappropriately use data/stats, as you said, with an all encompassing attitude when that information supports a position they hold. I find this to be especially true if their position is one of convenience (read: laziness) over common sense (read: uncomfortable but prudent). This is the gist of the convenience over sapience comment: people will inappropriately cite information to support a personal choice rooted in laziness, not logic. *Note: terms like laziness read as rude and I am not directing them at anyone but rather at the very real human motivations involved in the subject at hand.

That said, I fully appreciate personal choices and comfort is always a consideration. However, comfort cannot be the dominant discriminator in a discussion centered on the preservation of life.

Speaking for myself, I do not appreciate when personal choices of convenience are publicly presented as anything but that, and are subsequently buttressed by misappropriation and/or bastardized of otherwise solid information.

Thanks again for the added input BBIs, I appreciate your valuable information and the comments here.

Glenn E. Meyer

02-15-2022, 10:46 AM

dontshakepandas

02-15-2022, 10:55 AM

I'm not in the mood to buy another gun right now.

Sometimes I wish I knew what that felt like.

I read TGS like the Surefire XC1 and it's size is appealing as not a big honker.

I would suggest holding off on the XC1, especially for OWB carry. Its output is pretty weak and there have been a lot of reports of reliability issues. If you want something that size that is available now look at the TLR7-A instead. If you can wait a bit, Cloud Defensive has an option coming out soon-ish that will won't extend past the muzzle of a Glock 17 and will have actual full power light output.

84416

TGS

02-15-2022, 10:55 AM

Not wanting to divert too much but I'll ask. The discussion interests me. Now my EDC is a Gen 3 G26, so no light attachment and I'm not in the mood to buy another gun right now. However, I have a Gen 4 17 which is more a competition and house in the night pickup. I read TGS like the Surefire XC1 and it's size is appealing as not a big honker.

So what's a good OWB, left side Kydex holster for this. I've search our site and the suggestions are old. JM (I have three) has some interesting ones but I want to explore possibilities from reputable companies.

The XC1 was purpose built for the Glock 19. I don't know of anyone that makes a Glock 17/XC1 holster except for custom jobs.

I wouldn't buy the XC1 if you have the choice, either. Definitely get the Streamlight TLR7. I'm limited by what my agency says I can use, which includes the XC1 and X300.

There are options to mount on the Glock 26, such as the TLR6. There's even options to use on the Glock 43 and SIG P365. I haven't used any of them.

Doc_Glock

02-15-2022, 11:02 AM

The way I look at it, for just over $100 a TLR-7 adds weight in just the right place, and doesn’t appreciably add bulk to the pistol or holster. Even if I never used the light, it makes the gun shoot better, and the 500 lumens is just an added bonus.

That is kind of where I am at as well. I don't see the downside and in the dark of a desert night there are some significant upsides.

Glenn E. Meyer

02-15-2022, 11:04 AM

Thanks, love the expertise here.

About not wanting to buy another gun - there are other seductive expensive hobbies that are calling for my discretionary funds.

I'll look at the options for awhile.

medmo

02-15-2022, 03:33 PM

Not wanting to divert too much but I'll ask. The discussion interests me. Now my EDC is a Gen 3 G26, so no light attachment and I'm not in the mood to buy another gun right now. However, I have a Gen 4 17 which is more a competition and house in the night pickup. I read TGS like the Surefire XC1 and it's size is appealing as not a big honker.

So what's a good OWB, left side Kydex holster for this. I've search our site and the suggestions are old. JM (I have three) has some interesting ones but I want to explore possibilities from reputable companies.

If no JM available, I'd try Black Rhino Concealment OWB. I have a PX4CC/TLR7 ACS AIWB holster from them that is comfy, great fit and is holding up excellent. They offer a variety of pistol/WML combos.

Clusterfrack

02-19-2022, 11:37 AM

JCL

02-19-2022, 07:28 PM

JCL, Cdub_NW, and I got together last night for some KFC (Korean fried chicken) and did some low light testing with WMLs to determine when/if a gun is visible. I’ll keep y’all in suspense about the results until they post.

We had an assortment of WMLs including 600 and 1000 lumen X300s, TLR 7&8 and a 100 lumen CrimsonTrace Railmaster. Handheld lights were in the 500-1100 lumen range. Distance to the observer was 13 yards. For all combinations of handgun and WML tested, being within 15 degrees laterally of the bore axis made the pistol indistinguishable for practical purposes. The masking effect of the 100 lumen CT light diminished more rapidly as the bore axis was shifted. The same held true for a vertical deflection toward a low ready position. Results were similar with a handheld with a temple index and the handgun at high ready. The barrel of a shotgun with a 600 lumen X300 became distinguishable almost instantaneously when the bore axis was deflected.