45 Thoughts....Extractors, tensioning, and tuning

[BLR]

Every once in a while, I get a 1911 in my possession that just is right. The last two have been CQB-Es. Take that for what it's worth.

*Quick disclaimer: I do not get paid by WC. In spite of my best efforts, the flow of money has been entirely one way with this company. I'm not happy about that, but there you go.*

So, the top two points of contention in the 1911 world are mags and extractors. In my mind, the first is arguable right now. The second is a result of ignorance and nothing else. What follows are my unpaid, unscripted, random thoughts and gripes, which are worth exactly what you are paying for them.

The subject of the discussion, a brand spanking new CQB-E:

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y491/feral45/Gunsmithing/20141002_091926_zpsp1xk6h5d.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/feral45/media/Gunsmithing/20141002_091926_zpsp1xk6h5d.jpg.html)

Here is a picture showing why there are not "1911s" anymore:

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y491/feral45/Gunsmithing/20141002_095727_zpsflltzgdo.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/feral45/media/Gunsmithing/20141002_095727_zpsflltzgdo.jpg.html)

Top is a perfectly fitted WC Bullet Proof extractor, bottom a Ed Brown Hard Core extractor. Notice the differences in them? The Wilson is wider, the caming surface is more radiused, and the bevel on the bottom is more gradual.

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y491/feral45/Gunsmithing/20141002_095908_zpsducf35d6.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/feral45/media/Gunsmithing/20141002_095908_zpsducf35d6.jpg.html)

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y491/feral45/Gunsmithing/20141002_095933_zpssghfpjby.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/feral45/media/Gunsmithing/20141002_095933_zpssghfpjby.jpg.html)

So, they are different. Significantly, different, and both will work just fine if installed correctly.

So, how do you install an extractor correctly? I've always marveled at the experts griping about fitting an extractor. If you need to flush/serrate/checker it, sure. That takes a bit of time. 45 min maybe. Otherwise, it's just above trivial. All you need is to know how it should fit.

Which means you need.......to know what dimension you are striving for.

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y491/feral45/Gunsmithing/20141002_095956_zpszjxhb9x0.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/feral45/media/Gunsmithing/20141002_095956_zpszjxhb9x0.jpg.html)

These come in handy to ensure proper hook height. That kinda matters. I have more than a couple "Tier 1" 1911s from uber builders - there is no consistency in their hook height.

This is how the CQBE came from Wilson (using Ranger ammo)

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y491/feral45/Gunsmithing/20141002_100206_zpsnsgich9p.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/feral45/media/Gunsmithing/20141002_100206_zpsnsgich9p.jpg.html)

The whole "check with a loaded round" is a half assed approach. Cartridge rims, especially today, very wildly. Building up a gun isn't about feel or trial and error. It's about knowing the numbers and working to them. Either you know the numbers or you don't.

Next comes the discussion of tension. You do not want to use one of these:

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y491/feral45/Gunsmithing/20141002_100253_zpsgakcgb6p.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/feral45/media/Gunsmithing/20141002_100253_zpsgakcgb6p.jpg.html)

That's an awesome bench block. I have 3. They are wonderful, and worth every penny. But using one to tension your extractor is horribly foolish.

You use one of these to do this job:

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y491/feral45/Gunsmithing/20141002_100305_zpsfuahy9ae.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/feral45/media/Gunsmithing/20141002_100305_zpsfuahy9ae.jpg.html)

My normal one has a ball bearing set in the stop screw. This allows you to actually adjust the extractor with some modicum of control and precision.

Now, you can do the by feel, and most of the time it will come out just fine. However, if you want to be correct there is interplay between the type of ammo, the ejector, and the extractor geometry and tension. I set my guns up for 230g ammo at a PF of 195. Which is what Ranger typically shoots for me, using a WC Bulletproof ejector and extractor.

Determining the proper tension took some effort, but here is how I generally went about it: I put a CQB into a Ransom, and varied the tension (now you know why I don't do this by just bending the extractor) until all the cases wound up about 5 feet away in a neat little pile. Proper springs, FPS, extractor, and ejector geometry. I got my own ideal now. Remember, all else equal, consistency is reliability. It simply is.

Now, once you are set up, the extractor should never need readjustment. The hook will break in something like 20k to 80k. Some last longer, some don't, but that's the range. It shouldn't lose tension.

Seems like lots of trouble? I can hear the derp now. "Drop in parts!" It doesn't work like that. Look at all the G17 extractor issues. Swapping out parts until it works is a fools folly, IMO. YMMV.

Now for more pics!

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y491/feral45/Gunsmithing/20141002_100421_zpsu9ul9luw.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/feral45/media/Gunsmithing/20141002_100421_zpsu9ul9luw.jpg.html)

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y491/feral45/Gunsmithing/20141002_091943_zpsqdbrxtw5.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/feral45/media/Gunsmithing/20141002_091943_zpsqdbrxtw5.jpg.html)



Cheers!

[LittleLebowski]

Kimber en route.

[tomr]

So Bill, As usual great pics, intriguing thoughts. Know you're busy and generous with your time to us. I'm off the back a bit. How did you use those feeler gages? What did you measure? What dimension is your goal? Are those measurements starting points and/but final "tension" is determined using shots fired with the pistol clamped in a Ransom Rest combined with trial and error with the tensioner and extractor? As rims vary, do you use mixed brass or stay with one brand?

[BLR]

So Bill, As usual great pics, intriguing thoughts. Know you're busy and generous with your time to us. I'm off the back a bit. How did you use those feeler gages? What did you measure? What dimension is your goal? Are those measurements starting points and/but final "tension" is determined using shots fired with the pistol clamped in a Ransom Rest combined with trial and error with the tensioner and extractor? As rims vary, do you use mixed brass or stay with one brand?

Gauges - hook height. My number....I'm not sure if it would be good or bad to throw that out right now.

The number is actually a range. Final is when the gun ejects consistently where I want it to. The whole process takes about 2 hours and 50-100 rounds, mixed brass. I accept a 2ft diameter circle for the brass to land in. I will allow 10% miss rate (no all the variables are held constant all the time).

Do you have to be this weird? Nope. Obviously not. But is stress relief. That's why it takes me time to build guns. And why I don't do it for hire.

[TCinVA]

Some people tend a bonsai tree. Some people apply rigorous scientific method to the tuning of a 1911's extractor.

[tomr]

Wipe on.... Wipe off....

I get it.

[NETim]

Just think of all the derpitude that could be vanquished with one simple Tier One Extractor Seminar.


Ahem.

[JHC]

I'd say mine throws them about 15 feet but very consistently. Is that a bad thing?

[BLR]

Some people tend a bonsai tree. Some people apply rigorous scientific method to the tuning of a 1911's extractor.

True, this is way, way, w a y out in the weeds.

That said, the 1911 world is full of ignorant fools that claim to be experts (bromance is an ugly, ugly, thing) who don't have a clue as to what is actually going on.

[BLR]

I'd say mine throws them about 15 feet but very consistently. Is that a bad thing?

Nope. 15 ft seems a touch long, and is indicative of excessive slide velocity IMO.

[45dotACP]

Weigand's stuff is awesome! I tried the whole "bend and check" method and after about a thousand rounds of guess n' check, I came to the conclusion that a numerical value is nice to have...fast forward to me buying a tension gauge and extractor jig and I have yet to have a failure with my 1911 using bullet profiles that run the gamut from HP to FMJ to SWCs...

FWIW, I used Ed Brown's extractor. I wish I was cool enough to say the sciency reasons I chose it, but at the time, I was just looking for something labeled "extractor" and the Brown was the first one that popped up.

[Guinnessman]

Kimber en route.

LL,

You still own a Kimber? It's not the ONE, is it? :)

[Sigfan26]

Is it possible to have multiple extractors fit to a pistol to maintain easily accessible spare parts, or do they need to be fit on an as needed basis?

[JHC]

Nope. 15 ft seems a touch long, and is indicative of excessive slide velocity IMO.

I have replacement recoil springs at 16# and 18#. The 18 from reading way back that LAV preferred them for a more reliable fouled gun. IDK obviously.

Thanks much.

[LittleLebowski]

LL,

You still own a Kimber? It's not the ONE, is it? :)

Yup, it's the one.

[BLR]

I have replacement recoil springs at 16# and 18#. The 18 from reading way back that LAV preferred them for a more reliable fouled gun. IDK obviously.

Thanks much.

I like 16# springs, flat bottom FPS, and as heavy a mainspring as I can find. With todays sears and hammers, no need to go light unless you are shooting a 9mm.

[Jeep]

I like 16# springs, flat bottom FPS, and as heavy a mainspring as I can find. With todays sears and hammers, no need to go light unless you are shooting a 9mm.

Do those heavy mainsprings have much of an effect on trigger pull?

[tomr]

I like 16# springs, flat bottom FPS, and as heavy a mainspring as I can find. With todays sears and hammers, no need to go light unless you are shooting a 9mm.

Bill, You surprised me here. You have written in the past about the benefits of flatwire and twisted wires springs in various applications and I thought you were a proponent of Wilson's 17# flatwire recoil spring. How come you don't mention that here? Tom

[Gary1911A1]

Bill, do you think how high or low the rear of the barrel is fitted plays a factor in how the extractor is fitted?