Anatomy of a 45

[BLR]

This is what (in my not very humble opinion) a 1911 should be.

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y491/feral45/1911%20Pics/20141001_110506_zpsgfwgipxu.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/feral45/media/1911%20Pics/20141001_110506_zpsgfwgipxu.jpg.html)

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y491/feral45/1911%20Pics/20141001_110519_zpse0vsrez7.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/feral45/media/1911%20Pics/20141001_110519_zpse0vsrez7.jpg.html)

Note the front cocking serrations - they should be there. And these are dehorned as should be, so they won't tear up the holster.

Now, here's why:

The heart of the 1911 is the barrel fit, and the easiest way to tell if everything is up to snuff - the slide stop. This gun has roughly 80 rounds through it (all done at WC, BTW).

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y491/feral45/1911%20Pics/20141001_110844_zpssr6cej1a.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/feral45/media/1911%20Pics/20141001_110844_zpssr6cej1a.jpg.html)

Note slightly higher contact on the left side? From experience, this will burnish into nearly perfect contact within a few hundred rounds. Not "Supergrade" fit out of the gate, but not bad by any stretch.

Proper dimpling of the SS. An indication of well thought out execution.

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y491/feral45/1911%20Pics/20141001_110905_zpsfv4vcpqn.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/feral45/media/1911%20Pics/20141001_110905_zpsfv4vcpqn.jpg.html)

Barrel throating is a the hallmark of proper building, and the nearly universal indicator of kitchen table hacking.

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y491/feral45/1911%20Pics/20141001_110951_zpsnlkpxs3d.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/feral45/media/1911%20Pics/20141001_110951_zpsnlkpxs3d.jpg.html)

There are top tier gunsmiths that over polish/throat IMO. The frame should be roughly a 0.5" diameter ramp, not flattened by too much dremeling. The radius helps guide the bullet into the chamber, and over polishing increases the odds that things will go wrong.

Also, note the good fit on the bbl hood.

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y491/feral45/1911%20Pics/20141001_111037_zpsqz509wfa.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/feral45/media/1911%20Pics/20141001_111037_zpsqz509wfa.jpg.html)

All's good here.

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y491/feral45/1911%20Pics/20141001_111115_zps2dqaqsws.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/feral45/media/1911%20Pics/20141001_111115_zps2dqaqsws.jpg.html)

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y491/feral45/1911%20Pics/20141001_111131_zpssf0ssatl.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/feral45/media/1911%20Pics/20141001_111131_zpssf0ssatl.jpg.html)

Excellent fitting of the bbl lugs. Not much needed, by the looks of it, but it's done right. With the barrel and bushing in the slide, the barrel should be able to rock back and forth in about a 5 degree arc. It should not move back and forth more than a couple thousandths. This one has about a half thousands play back and forth. More than 0.002 and things are not right ("right" not "serviceable" - there is a difference).

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y491/feral45/1911%20Pics/20141001_111216_zpsuiirss7i.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/feral45/media/1911%20Pics/20141001_111216_zpsuiirss7i.jpg.html)

Bushing fit is perfect in my opinion. No wrench needed, my mic says 0.001" or so slip fit to the slide, and just a hair more on the barrel, as it should be.

[BLR]

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y491/feral45/1911%20Pics/20141001_111300_zpsrvb2pv9l.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/feral45/media/1911%20Pics/20141001_111300_zpsrvb2pv9l.jpg.html)

Breechface is square, true, and polished.

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y491/feral45/1911%20Pics/20141001_111253_zpstrqvqpnj.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/feral45/media/1911%20Pics/20141001_111253_zpstrqvqpnj.jpg.html)

Note the extractor shape and location? Done correctly. Perfectly shaped.

Excellent 3 dot sights.

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y491/feral45/1911%20Pics/20141001_111343_zpsojmwlm3z.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/feral45/media/1911%20Pics/20141001_111343_zpsojmwlm3z.jpg.html)

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y491/feral45/1911%20Pics/20141001_111354_zps35ngeh41.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/feral45/media/1911%20Pics/20141001_111354_zps35ngeh41.jpg.html)

Mag wells are borderline must have for a 1911. And the Wilson mag well is one of the best.

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y491/feral45/1911%20Pics/20141001_111410_zpsuxikwizq.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/feral45/media/1911%20Pics/20141001_111410_zpsuxikwizq.jpg.html)

I personally like 20lpi, but the 30lpi is serviceable....I guess.

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y491/feral45/1911%20Pics/20141001_111418_zps4rntxlzb.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/feral45/media/1911%20Pics/20141001_111418_zps4rntxlzb.jpg.html)

Final thoughts - 1911s don't exist. You can buy, for example, a CQB or a Talon, and so on. But you really can't buy a 1911 anymore. Also, the audience for 1911 style guns have changed. A quick look see at most any 1911-centric resource will show you just how much. To beat on Wilson a bit, if you look at the FAQ or most forums, you'll see questions that range from "What lube should I use" to "How many rounds should break-in be?" to "Is this right?". Formerly, the market for $2k+ 1911s would be much more experienced, and typically, knowledgeable on 1911s in general.

1911s are heavy. They are also expensive, compared with (mostly) injection molded guns. They hold slightly less rounds (8 vs 10 when comparing apples to apples).

They are also easier to shoot well. They are not a "be all end all" gun. But they are not maintenance intensive as some claim. They aren't finicky as some claim. They don't need any more attention than any other all metal gun. There is nothing in the design that requires any more attention. They are caveman simple to detail strip, though an entire group thinks they are complicated.

1911 happiness, like with any tool/toy, comes from knowledge. Brass to the face from a Glock is as frustrating as mag issues with a 1911. You need to be smarter than the gun.

[theJanitor]

But you really can't buy a 1911 anymore.

They are not a "be all end all" gun. But they are not maintenance intensive as some claim. They aren't finicky as some claim. They don't need any more attention than any other all metal gun. There is nothing in the design that requires any more attention. They are caveman simple to detail strip, though an entire group thinks they are complicated.



This message needs to be spread. It feels as though the internet has thrown the platform under the bus, in order to raise the perception of its expertise.

[BLR]

This message needs to be spread. It feels as though the internet has thrown the platform under the bus, in order to raise the perception of its expertise.

Absolutely.

[LSP972]

Question for you, Bill... regarding spring guide buffers (I see one on your pistol in these photos).

Here's the parameters:

Ed Brown Special Forces; acquired new. My plan was, once it had a few hundred rounds through it, to install a lighter spring and shoot light loads (specifically, Remington 185gr jacketed SWC bullseye bullet over 4.2 grains of WST; about a 700fps load from a 5" barrel) through it. That plan failed, as the pistol simply won't feed those bullets.

Plan B is to keep the original spring (I assume its 16#) and just shoot my regular practice load (800fps/230gr ball load). This pistol is strictly a range toy. It won't be shot a tremendous amount, but I'd like to minimize recoil and wear on the gun as much as possible. Reducing the velocity with the same bullet via adjusting the powder charge is an option.

The question is: assuming it doesn't affect reliability, am I doing myself/the gun any good with a Wilson buffer... or is it just a waste of time?

.

[threedogdad]

Simply beautiful. I've been debating whether to buy a Baer Custom Carry or use that money to send my old Colt off for custom work. You just added a whole nuther option, complicating matters immensely.

And I thank you for it.

[tomr]

Bill, please notice we've bumped the "Through hardness Matters" thread and I'm thinking that conversation is relevant here, though making the connection may take some work, for some. While the "1911' such as it is, in its better, modern form, may still be big, heavy and expensive, it does an awful lot of things, relevant to how many people actually use pistols, pretty darn well. Having carried one of these a "few" years ago, and given all the other crap we carried, (mostly water and food), I get why I might opt for a G17. I get why LE or military might opt for something else. But for the rest of us, it sometimes feels like the popular arguments put the emPHAsis on the wrong SyLLABLE.

[LSP552]

I swear Bill, you are going to make me buy a Wilson if you keep this up. :)

[tomr]

Question for you, Bill... regarding spring guide buffers (I see one on your pistol in these photos).

Here's the parameters:

Ed Brown Special Forces; acquired new. My plan was, once it had a few hundred rounds through it, to install a lighter spring and shoot light loads (specifically, Remington 185gr jacketed SWC bullseye bullet over 4.2 grains of WST; about a 700fps load from a 5" barrel) through it. That plan failed, as the pistol simply won't feed those bullets.

Plan B is to keep the original spring (I assume its 16#) and just shoot my regular practice load (800fps/230gr ball load). This pistol is strictly a range toy. It won't be shot a tremendous amount, but I'd like to minimize recoil and wear on the gun as much as possible. Reducing the velocity with the same bullet via adjusting the powder charge is an option.

The question is: assuming it doesn't affect reliability, am I doing myself/the gun any good with a Wilson buffer... or is it just a waste of time?

.
How light diid you go? You might find some of the discussion here interesting. http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=469116

Ive abandoned their buffers.

[LSP972]

Never got around to firing it, Tom. I tried chambering some proof dummies I made for that purpose, out ove every magazine, and simply no joy. The extreme ogive on those Remington 185s allows the case mouth to jam against the frame; the case never makes it to the barrel feed ramp.

I have no doubt the pistol would function with these loads and a 12# spring; but you gotta get the cartridge into the chamber first...:(

.

[LSP972]

I swear Bill, you are going to make me buy a Wilson if you keep this up. :)

Go for it. Get one with fixed trits, we'll stand on the long line at JESTC with it and my EB, and see who's eyes are worse.:D

.

[BLR]

Question for you, Bill... regarding spring guide buffers (I see one on your pistol in these photos).

Here's the parameters:

Ed Brown Special Forces; acquired new. My plan was, once it had a few hundred rounds through it, to install a lighter spring and shoot light loads (specifically, Remington 185gr jacketed SWC bullseye bullet over 4.2 grains of WST; about a 700fps load from a 5" barrel) through it. That plan failed, as the pistol simply won't feed those bullets.

Plan B is to keep the original spring (I assume its 16#) and just shoot my regular practice load (800fps/230gr ball load). This pistol is strictly a range toy. It won't be shot a tremendous amount, but I'd like to minimize recoil and wear on the gun as much as possible. Reducing the velocity with the same bullet via adjusting the powder charge is an option.

The question is: assuming it doesn't affect reliability, am I doing myself/the gun any good with a Wilson buffer... or is it just a waste of time?

.

All my guns get functioned checked without a buffer, and carried as such. This is because the extra slide travel allows the mag more time to position.

All my practice and comp guns have a buffer. For a Wilson, you can argue it will matter. If I break my CQB's frame, I'm getting a new one. For a Burton gun, I'd never shoot one without, and here's why: A new Colt frame is nothing. Few hundred bucks. But getting to make the gun a gun again is a few grand. Why chance it?

Shock buffs can't hurt.

Shock buffs are easy and cheap to use.

They can only help.

The guys who get bent about them universally don't understand the purpose.

That said, there are some gamers that use aluminum ones to change how the gun feels in recoil. I'm not good enough to see a difference.

I'd shoot 200g LSWCs at 850fps non stop. In fact, aside from the Rangers in my gun right now, I doubt I've shot anything but in a long, long, long time. 200g Precision Moly LSWC, over 4.7g Bullseye with whatever brass and primer I have. The 185s are for the Bullseye guys, and they typically shoot Nosler JHPs of the same weight anywho.

[tomr]

Never got around to firing it, Tom. I tried chambering some proof dummies I made for that purpose, out ove every magazine, and simply no joy. The extreme ogive on those Remington 185s allows the case mouth to jam against the frame; the case never makes it to the barrel feed ramp.

I have no doubt the pistol would function with these loads and a 12# spring; but you gotta get the cartridge into the chamber first...:(

.

Mine ran with 185 Magnus. Haven't tried Bayous in the CQB (w 15# RS), but they run great in the BE pistol (with 10#s)

[LSP972]

Shock buffs can't hurt.

Shock buffs are easy and cheap to use.

They can only help.

.

Good enough.

Thanks.

.

[LSP972]

Haven't tried Bayous in the CQB (w 15# RS), but they run great in the BE pistol (with 10#s)

I have a few remaining of Donnie's 200 LSWC (H&G #68), and they feed fine. Those Remington's are simply too short/stumpy for this pistol. I had a Rock River ball gun that I shot BE with, and it fed them fine. I have a bunch left over from that escapade, and was hoping to use them in the Ed Brown. No joy.

.

[Tamara]

Shock buffs can't hurt.

You just said you don't have them in your carry guns, though.

(FWIW, I don't think they're Teh Debbil or anything, I just don't think they're all that necessary, but my 1911s are all pretty plebeian by comparison.)

[JonInWA]

Bill, my thoughts are that your pretty much on target, for me, anyhow. My only real points of disagreement (and they aren't really fall-on-the-sword things) are regarding front slide grasping grooves, frontstrap checkering, and shock buffs.

I personally do not use, particularly see a viable need for slide front grasping grooves, particularly in a carry/defensive 1911 (i.e., one without RDS, scopes, or other add-ons that intrinsically physically constrain normal use of the rear grasping grooves for slide reciprocation. I think that they can encourage a potentially bad practice-i.e., placing hands/fingers close to the muzzle. I guess alternatively I could accept the argument that as long as they're properly placed and dehorned (as you advocate), they're not hurting anything (well, other than aesthetics), and are simply another "tool in the toolbox" to be utilized as appropriate. Like I said, not a fall-on-the-sword thing.

To me, if the gun is properly sprung, you shouldn't need a shock buff. Conversely, a gun's longevity is determined by such a narrow envelope of proper component interface as to where a shock buff is a prudent choice, my though is that I probably would be better off moving to another more durable platform-especially for serious defensive/LEO/military use.

With frontstrap checkering, I'm content with 25 LPI. But I could probably live with pretty much anything between 20 to 30 LPI.

And while I concede your recommendation of extended magwells, I personally prefer to go without, placing more of a premium (for me) on concealibility; I DO prefer magwell bevelling, especially on the inner sides and rear.

Best, Jon

[Tamara]

JonInWA and I should go bowling, we're so simpatico on those issues. (Well, except I know what Bill's gonna say about the "more durable platform" thing...)

Personally, I was a little surprised to discover that Bill actively desires the Lesser Manglers on his gat.

[BLR]

You just said you don't have them in your carry guns, though.

(FWIW, I don't think they're Teh Debbil or anything, I just don't think they're all that necessary, but my 1911s are all pretty plebeian by comparison.)

They are absolutely not necessary. No question.

And yes, I don't have them in the gun I carry (at any given time). I'd hate to not notice an internal void on one that decided at the point in time I needed it most to friction brake the slide and cause a failure.

But at any other time, I think the potential good outweighs the potential bad. I say potential because I've never had the above thing happen to me at any time.

The 1911 frame is (was) a great big buffer. You really don't need a buffer. I have them in my Heinie, Devel, Burton, Vickers, and Boland guns because they are irreplaceable (or very expensive to do so). I care less when it's a, for example, Tactical Supergrade because I'd just send the gun back to WC and forget the problem ever occurred.

I think of them as insurance. Nothing more. I don't get the butt-hurt some people have over them. On one side, your a fool to not use them. Then the other side counters with it will get you killed on the street.

It's just a funny shaped plastic washer. Can't hurt to use (if you elect to use your head), so why not?

[BLR]

JonInWA and I should go bowling, we're so simpatico on those issues. (Well, except I know what Bill's gonna say about the "more durable platform" thing...)

Personally, I was a little surprised to discover that Bill actively desires the Lesser Manglers on his gat.

LoL.

I hate the way they look, but I use them all the time. FWIW, YMMV, I'm a flake and have piles going each way.

BTW - the "if the gun is sprung correctly" isn't as trivial to do as that sounds. At least the correctly part.

[JonInWA]

LoL.

I hate the way they look, but I use them all the time. FWIW, YMMV, I'm a flake and have piles going each way.

BTW - the "if the gun is sprung correctly" isn't as trivial to do as that sounds. At least the correctly part.

And that's precisely why, in my opinion, that simply spending the seemingly requisite $1,000 to $3000 (or higher) these days on a 1911, even from seeming credible manufacturers/semi-custom/custom houses is not necessarily a per se guarantee of having an operationally viable 1911. It certainly should be, but isn't necessarily...In my opinion, a 1911 user needs to spend the time necessary (or have someone else with suitable expertise) on his/her specific 1911s to ensure that they are properly set up/sprung.

And regarding shock buffs, I regard even even the possibility of having a shock buff shread/fragment and subsequently gum up the operational cycle of a gun is a strong enough argument for me to preclude their employment in anything other than specifically designated range toys.

Best, Jon

[BLR]

And that's precisely why, in my opinion, that simply spending the seemingly requisite $1,000 to $3000 (or higher) these days on a 1911, even from seeming credible manufacturers/semi-custom/custom houses is not necessarily a per se guarantee of having an operationally viable 1911. It certainly should be, but isn't necessarily...In my opinion, a 1911 user needs to spend the time necessary (or have someone else with suitable expertise) on his/her specific 1911s to ensure that they are properly set up/sprung.

And regarding shock buffs, I regard even even the possibility of having a shock buff shread/fragment and subsequently gum up the operational cycle of a gun is a strong enough argument for me to preclude their employment in anything other than specifically designated range toys.

Best, Jon

I'd say the $1k figure is a little low, to be honest. My lower threshold for 1911s is the TRP. I don't doubt there are lemon TRPs, but I've yet to see one in person. YMMV. And true enough, spending $$$$ doesn't actually guarantee a working 1911. Same can be said of the VP9 and G17. Though, I'll take exception to the semi-custom houses part. If you buy a NHC, an EB, or a WC, you are pretty much assured the gun has been shot prior to leaving the factory. How much more do you want? Do they send out bad guns? Sure. Again, I have yet to actually see one in person. I've seen broken extractors, and ejectors, to be sure. But I've yet to see (for example) a CQB that didn't do the job.

With respect to custom houses - I have experience with a few. I know Burton sends more than a couple hundred rounds through every single gun before finishing it.

On shock buffs - I have more than one 1911, so I typical will have one for range/practice/etc that has one it it. When it's time to rotate, the gun gets meticulously cleaned, inspected, and the shock buff comes out. Then it cycles 2 mags of dummy rounds. No chance of shreddage, because it isn't there.

If you only have one 1911, and you want to practice and carry it, you should be cleaning your gun anyway. So, take it out before sticking it into your holster.

[Haraise]

And that's precisely why, in my opinion, that simply spending the seemingly requisite $1,000 to $3000 (or higher) these days on a 1911, even from seeming credible manufacturers/semi-custom/custom houses is not necessarily a per se guarantee of having an operationally viable 1911. It certainly should be, but isn't necessarily...In my opinion, a 1911 user needs to spend the time necessary (or have someone else with suitable expertise) on his/her specific 1911s to ensure that they are properly set up/sprung.

And regarding shock buffs, I regard even even the possibility of having a shock buff shread/fragment and subsequently gum up the operational cycle of a gun is a strong enough argument for me to preclude their employment in anything other than specifically designated range toys.

Best, Jon

Man, if you think spending a lot of money should grant problem free expensive goods no matter who you buy from, avoid them all.

Ferraris light themselves on fire, Coach bags fall apart, Blahniks break heels...

Anyone can make an expensive thing. Very few know how to make a good thing. Fewer know how to keep QC up on that good thing. If you are scraping to get one expensive thing, go with a sure bet (great warranty) like Wilson Combat.

[JonInWA]

Man, if you think spending a lot of money should grant problem free expensive goods no matter who you buy from, avoid them all.

Ferraris light themselves on fire, Coach bags fall apart, Blahniks break heels...

Anyone can make an expensive thing. Very few know how to make a good thing. Fewer know how to keep QC up on that good thing. If you are scraping to get one expensive thing, go with a sure bet (great warranty) like Wilson Combat.

I don't intrinsically disagree with you. And while I'd hardly be the one to argue that a Colt (or true Colt-pattern) 1911A1 is the apogee of perfection (and yes, I'm well aware of the outlier skeletons in the Colt closet, such as the collet-bushing Series 70 guns...), it does seem to be the further manufacturers drift away from those parameters ostensibly in search of various iterations of improvement/perfection, the greater the chances of operational issue of one sort or another seem to crop up.

And while I've had exceptional warrant support from SIG-Sauer regarding my second-generation GSR XO, and an excellent warranty in place on my NHC Talon II (unnecessary so far), I'm far more likely to utilize other platforms generally.

My baseline suggestion for an entry-level 1911 today is one of Colt's 5" models, 1991 or higher. The 1991s at least can still be had for less than $1K.

Best, Jon

[farscott]

My thoughts:

1) Wilson builds a very good 1911-pattern pistol and the prices reflect that. For the most part, Wilson parts are very well designed, carefully manufactured, and excellently fitted. It is obvious that Wilson now makes just about all of their parts except for springs and, maybe, pins. Their QC processes are very good and constantly improving as are the parts and the fitting. About my only gripe is that I am not a fan of 416R for barrels, much preferring Fred Kart's barrels or the older Wilson 17-4 PH barrels. That is due to shooting a fair amount of 9x23 Winchester and wanting an extra margin of yield strength. The Kart barrel will bulge when the Wilson barrel will split.

2) I am not a fan of FCS as I do not use them. As such, I see no upside. I chamber check and operate the slide using the rear cocking serrations.

3) I use buffs in my game guns and not in carry guns. I once had a CP buff shred within the first magazine, but the Wilson ones seem to last a long time. I tend to replace them when I clean the gun, which is usually after 750 rounds or so. My wrists like the different perceived recoil.

4) Yes, there seems to be a new (or, if not new, more vocal) breed of 1911 fan more interested in discussing Baron bluing versus Turnbull bluing than actually shooting the pistol. That may be due to the fact that many Wilson guns are in the $5 kilobuck range. Still, there are still lots of 1911 fans who are high round-count shooters.

[Tamara]

4) Yes, there seems to be a new (or, if not new, more vocal) breed of 1911 fan more interested in discussing Baron bluing versus Turnbull bluing than actually shooting the pistol. That may be due to the fact that many Wilson guns are in the $5 kilobuck range. Still, there are still lots of 1911 fans who are high round-count shooters.

See, that's the other part of Bill's post at which I looked askance. The gun fondlers were every bit as much in evidence fifteen years ago as they are now.

You wouldn't believe the clucking over the 'idiot mark' and one or two flattened diamonds in the checkering ("He shot it wearing a ring!") on my Pro that helped lead to the substantially discounted price point at which I purchased it.

[farscott]

Here is pistol inspired by a very early Wilson pistol. Note that it has been used over the years.

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h229/farscott/ColtCombatSpecial2.jpg (http://s65.photobucket.com/user/farscott/media/ColtCombatSpecial2.jpg.html)

My Pro is also no safe queen, and I had John Harrison tweak it for my needs. Imagine the heresy of changing the specs of the perfect FBI HRT gun.

[Tamara]

Imagine the heresy of changing the specs of the perfect FBI HRT gun.

Let's not go talking crazy talk now. o.O

[Robinson]

Pretty soon my Series 70 repro is going to have a matte black finish applied and a S&A grip safety installed. Imagine the tumult that news would cause over at the 1911 forum. It'll keep the arched MSH and Harrison retro sight though, so there's that.

[Super77]

My thoughts:

1) Wilson builds a very good 1911-pattern pistol and the prices reflect that. For the most part, Wilson parts are very well designed, carefully manufactured, and excellently fitted. It is obvious that Wilson now makes just about all of their parts except for springs and, maybe, pins. Their QC processes are very good and constantly improving as are the parts and the fitting.

I've heard a few times here and there that 1911's in general and Wilsons inparticular have gotten better over the years. What's improved, exactly? Fit, materials, geometry? What would be significantly better about a WC built yesterday versus one built 5 years ago? 10 years?

[farscott]

I've heard a few times here and there that 1911's in general and Wilsons inparticular have gotten better over the years. What's improved, exactly? Fit, materials, geometry? What would be significantly better about a WC built yesterday versus one built 5 years ago? 10 years?

Much of the improvement over the last one hundred years in general has come from better heat treatment. Specifically, Wilson guns from today are much more consistent, and the WCT-prefix frames are the most consistent frames I have used. The machining is cleaner and the holes are the correct size and are correctly located. With other companies, pin holes and drilling angles tend to wander. This leads to one gun's trigger feeling much different from the next one. I even got a Caspian frame that had to go back as the thumb safety hole was broached nowhere near where it should have been. I have not seen that with any of the new Wilson parts. The materials Wilson chooses are very good, and the parts appear to be properly machined and heat-treated, unlike Ed Brown who uses tools well after the time that "oversize for gunsmith fit" has become "way too freaking big". An example of a better part today is the Bullet Proof slide stop. I have broken more than one Colt slide stop; however, I have not broken a single Bullet Proof slide stop.

The best example of better fit is the picture of the slide stop from the CQB posted by Dr. Riehl. You can take apart a lot of 1911s from a lot of companies, including older Wilson guns, and not see that fit. The fit on that CQB is better than the fit on my old SuperGrade. That is true of the last dozen of CQB pistols I have shot.

[BLR]

See, that's the other part of Bill's post at which I looked askance. The gun fondlers were every bit as much in evidence fifteen years ago as they are now.

You wouldn't believe the clucking over the 'idiot mark' and one or two flattened diamonds in the checkering ("He shot it wearing a ring!") on my Pro that helped lead to the substantially discounted price point at which I purchased it.

I dunno. The forum I used to frequent is all but unbearable now.

Price dropping because of damaged checkering and the sort is one thing.

Panicking about brass kisses to the point of taping up the slide before going shooting is entirely another. Or putting mole skin in a holster. There's a whole new level of nuttiness out there right now. And to be honest, I think it has more to do with, after spending $3700 (the MSRP of the pistol in this thread), taking it out to shoot it will cost you a new G17 with the first round fired. So you want to make sure you keep as much value in the gun as you can (no holster wear, not damaged checkering, no finish damage at the ejection port, etc).

The market has changed. There's no arguing that the a new CQB is a vastly superior gun compared with an old CQB. But the market has changed. The Kimber MIM debacle changed things. The bluing fad changed things.

But, at any rate, I'm going to post on extractors and extractor tuning today. But first, I must do some actual, paying work.

[JHC]

When I bought my Sams gun from Hack (the 2nd owner) it was mint. Not no more. The draws from kydex are working that finish pretty good as is my thumb on the safety. It's nowhere near the worn look yet that I'm after however.

[NETim]

Just got an email from Turnbull. My timing light is nearly done.

[JonInWA]

Mine are tools. Tools well conceptulized and put together, but at the end of the day, tools. Before my component-by-component spec'ced NHC Talon II arrived, I'd already ordered the Blase-Tech IWB kydex holster for it, knowing full well that it was gonna impart wear on the finish (which I'd also spec'ced). If I'd wanted a museum piece, I'd have had a custom display case on a marble column made for it. I don't, and I didn't. It gets used, for carry and competition. It's wear, for me, anyhow, adds "character."

Part of what I really enjoy about this forum is that we genuinely use what we talk about it, not just intrinsically fixate.

Best, Jon

[Urban_Redneck]

Is it heresy to say, for $3700 a maker should time the grip screws?

[TR675]

Is it heresy to say, for $3700 a maker should time the grip screws?

For $3700 the grip screws should be made out of solid gold and delivered on satin pillows by circa 1984 Christie Brinkley.

[JHC]

Is it heresy to say, for $3700 a maker should time the grip screws?

What does "time the grip screws" even mean??? :o

[JTQ]

Is it heresy to say, for $3700 a maker should time the grip screws?
I know this is said in jest, but that's something I truly never notice. I had to go back and look at the first post in the thread to see how they are aligned. I don't know what the grip screws on my 1911 look like right now. I'd take a look, but I don't care.

[JHC]

I know this is said in jest, but that's something I truly never notice. I had to go back and look at the first post in the thread to see how they are aligned. I don't know what the grip screws on my 1911 look like right now. I'd take a look, but I don't care.

Ah, a clue. Back to first post.


Edit: hmmm, ok. I guess mine are timed. I dig Glocks.

[HCM]

When I bought my Sams gun from Hack (the 2nd owner) it was mint. Not no more. The draws from kydex are working that finish pretty good as is my thumb on the safety. It's nowhere near the worn look yet that I'm after however.

Exactly !

[Urban_Redneck]

I know this is said in jest, but that's something I truly never notice. I had to go back and look at the first post in the thread to see how they are aligned. I don't know what the grip screws on my 1911 look like right now. I'd take a look, but I don't care.

I'm not joking, at all. To borrow the 1984 Christie Brinkley image, mistimed screws on a high dollar gun are like Christie with her front teeth knocked out.

Residual prejudice from some years in the fine gun business I suppose.

[opmike]

I'd say the $1k figure is a little low, to be honest. My lower threshold for 1911s is the TRP.

Just curious, but how do you feel about the lower end Colts like the XSE and Colt Rail Gun? The former regularly dips below 900 online, but they've always given me pause for some reason. Is there a Colt built to the quality of something like the TRP (not just features), for a similar price?

[tomr]

Is it heresy to say, for $3700 a maker should time the grip screws?

Yes.

Whats a Purdey cost today?

[tomr]

Sorry, I had to leave all the fun you were having here, to go to the west bay and shoot one of our twice monthly matches. I must be doing something wrong. I don't get it. I haven't cleaned since the last match and practice. I did dribble a little oil here and there. My ammo's those pesky 185s. The shok buff... well never was in this pistol. No matter how I try I can't get it to misfire, ftf, fte, hit me in the head with flying brass. What am I doing wrong? Damn boat anchor.

[BLR]

Yes.

Whats a Purdey cost today?

I disagree. I've timed more than a couple of my WCs. Because it irritates me. Like ants crawling on my skin.

[Urban_Redneck]

Yes.

Whats a Purdey cost today?

They start at about $60K and they're worth it :) A quick look at the pistols on Heirloom Precision's site revealed.... timed screws (bless them)!

It takes a decent gunsmith 15 min or less to time a screw. Aside from the obvious aesthetic, the practical consideration is you can tell at a glance if the screw has worked loose.

YMMV

[Tamara]

What does "time the grip screws" even mean??? :o

This (http://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/2014/09/gratuitous-gun-pr0n-110.html).

[Jeep]

Ah, a clue. Back to first post.


Edit: hmmm, ok. I guess mine are timed. I dig Glocks.


This whole thread has me convinced that rather than take out a mortgage to buy a pistol, I should just stick with 9mm Glocks. Not only are the pistol and ammo much cheaper, but I won't have to care if the grip screws are timed.

[Tamara]

This whole thread has me convinced that rather than take out a mortgage to buy a pistol, I should just stick with 9mm Glocks. Not only are the pistol and ammo much cheaper, but I won't have to care if the grip screws are timed.

You don't have to care if the grip screws are timed. I couldn't give a less of a crap if the grip screws are timed on my Pro, for instance. This does tie back to what Bill was talking about when it comes to gun fondlers, though...

It also reminds me of the survey data you hear where BMW or Mercedes has more initial service complaints than, say, Hyundai. Nobody stops to think that when somebody shells out $125k for a car, they're going to be running it by the dealer's every time they hear that... you know, that. That little drone. You can't hear it? It's kind of a little eeeee noise, right between 67 and 69 mph? Whereas your average Hyundai Accent purchaser is tickled that they got approved for financing and the car has the right number of doors.

[Robinson]

I don't give a rip whether the grip screws on my Colts are timed or not. If I owned a beautiful pistol just for fondling and looking at maybe I would care, I dunno. I do still use slotted heads though. You know, in case I need to remove the grip panels in the middle of nowhere without any tools or something.

[tomr]

$3700.00 - $60,000.00 $3700.00 - $60,000.00 $3700.00 - $60,000.00 $3700.00 - $60,000.00 $3700.00 - $60,000.00
Zeros add perspective don't you think?

So now in order to get a 1911 to work, I need a Ransom Rest to tension my extractor and to spend another $100, (4 x 15min/screw @ $100/hour shop rate) to make sure my grips won't fall off.

We're going in the wrong direction.

This is all in jest right?

[Tamara]

$3700.00 - $60,000.00 $3700.00 - $60,000.00 $3700.00 - $60,000.00 $3700.00 - $60,000.00 $3700.00 - $60,000.00 Zeros add perspective don't you think?

$499.00 - $3,700.00? No wonder Jeep seems puzzled. ;)

[JHC]

This (http://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/2014/09/gratuitous-gun-pr0n-110.html).

Uh oh. "This word you keep saying (timed screws) I do not think it means what I think it means."

So timed means the same! From the page 1 pic, assuming Bill would not display one not timed, I saw offset which I started to figure had some purpose and was deliberate.

OK I take it back. My Sams gun is not timed. Or the left side is but the right side isn't. Unless there is a possibility of operator error when I bolted on the old Pachmayr grips for more grip girth.

[tomr]

Uh oh. "This word you keep saying (timed screws) I do not think it means what I think it means."

So timed means the same! From the page 1 pic, assuming Bill would not display one not timed, I saw offset which I started to figure had some purpose and was deliberate.

OK I take it back. My Sams gun is not timed. Or the left side is but the right side isn't. Unless there is a possibility of operator error when I bolted on the old Pachmayr grips for more grip girth.

Cant believe Im keeping this going...

Wouldn't have been operator error, assuming screw hole counterbores were at different heights/thicknesses, which seems a fair assumption.

Course, to, Bill and Urban-Redneck didn't specify whether these were vertically or horizontally timed. Thinking of ice dancing or water ballet.

[BWT]

It's not that the grip screws are a huge deal in and of themselves.

It's that you're paying a price for quality.

What if someone built a Ferrari but you had to jiggle the right door handle to open it and had to smack the other door handle to open it.

For the price of admission they should be glass smooth in opening the door.

Same thing with grip screws on semi and full customs. It's a quality of work thing.

[JTQ]

I'm not joking, at all. To borrow the 1984 Christie Brinkley image, mistimed screws on a high dollar gun are like Christie with her front teeth knocked out.

Residual prejudice from some years in the fine gun business I suppose.
I guess we all have our own crosses to bear.

[TR675]

It's not that the grip screws are a huge deal in and of themselves.

It's that you're paying a price for quality.

What if someone built a Ferrari but you had to jiggle the right door handle to open it and had to smack the other door handle to open it.

For the price of admission they should be glass smooth in opening the door.

Same thing with grip screws on semi and full customs. It's a quality of work thing.

Agree. Fit, finish and attention to detail get more important the more money I shell out for a new...anything, really. $800 for a working gun? Maybe I don't get so worked up about it.

[JTQ]

It's not that the grip screws are a huge deal in and of themselves.

It's that you're paying a price for quality.

What if someone built a Ferrari but you had to jiggle the right door handle to open it and had to smack the other door handle to open it.

For the price of admission they should be glass smooth in opening the door.

Same thing with grip screws on semi and full customs. It's a quality of work thing.
I disagree with your analogy.

You are pointing out that the door handle on that Ferrari doesn't work. The fact that those grip screws aren't aligned has nothing to do with the function of a gun.

The better analogy would be you'd expect all four of those five spoked Ferrari wheels to line up the same way all the time, well at least the two on the same side of the car. If that bugs you, well OK then.

[JHC]

IDK but I am sorta happy to have learned a couple things about high end 1911s. I do plan on a CQB someday Bill, you said I wasn't listening to you. ;)

[LSP972]

Doan need no steenkin' timing if you run allen head screws!

Notice how I was all tactically operator-ish and stuff by use of the verb form of "run"...


:cool:

.

[BWT]

I disagree with your analogy.

You are pointing out that the door handle on that Ferrari doesn't work. The fact that those grip screws aren't aligned has nothing to do with the function of a gun.

The better analogy would be you'd expect all four of those five spoked Ferrari wheels to line up the same way all the time, well at least the two on the same side of the car. If that bugs you, well OK then.

I personally don't care but if I paid $3,700; I'd probably appreciate the extra time and sentiment.

I'm a pretty laid back guy, but if they're taking the time the grip screws, they're probably taking the time to test other stuff.

For example, my Dan Wesson CBOB had checkering that was filed down at the factory. But, they bead blasted over it and mailed it anyway.

Would you surprised that when I recognized the grip safety had a TON of side to side play they recommended I retention the leaf spring? Or later on when the hammer broke at 1,000 rounds they almost didn't repair the gun because I was the second purchaser (it was very well in the warranty period but hey I was the second owner) Or when I brought the checkering to their attention they apologize and offered to remove it completely?

It's kind of like the reports on LB 1911's; sometimes they're ugly after they've filed the frame and slide. But when you call they ask "Does it shoot?" Or "How many rounds have you put through it" before listening?

I mean grip screws literally don't matter but after those examples you can see how they can matter because of what they indicate about how the manufacturer feels about the gun and customer's experience.

That's my take on it anyway.

YMMV.

ETA: With my CBOB they did machine out the frame way too wide near the grip safety, it still has a lot of side to side movement. But after re-tensioning the leaf spring the thumb safety doesn't wiggle or rattle as much.

[tomr]

It's not that the grip screws are a huge deal in and of themselves.

It's that you're paying a price for quality.

What if someone built a Ferrari but you had to jiggle the right door handle to open it and had to smack the other door handle to open it.

For the price of admission they should be glass smooth in opening the door.

Same thing with grip screws on semi and full customs. It's a quality of work thing.

But you are paying a price for quality. Really good quality, (thinking Wilson CQB and up here, which I assume was where the $3700.00 price came from.) At that price the cost of screw timing just isn't included. If you want timed screws, you could probably get them, you'd just have to pay a little more.

I think, though, you're actually saying timed screws should be included for the price. I'm guessing, if we polled this, most would not care. Its seems hard to fault what Wilson delivers, even at these prices. Though confess, I am a fan. $3700. seems a lot compared to a $500. Glock, but it pales next to a Purdey at 60K.

And to open the lid a crack on a whole nother can of worms, has anybody thought about how much we each pay, for our own version of a Wilson, because everybody else's is so heavily optioned? There is a system-wide cost to the lack of standardization of models. Wilson gives us what we want - they do that better than anybody. We need to understand we pay for it.

[Haraise]

And this is what the 1911 defenders are down to... endless discussions on the function irrelevant parts of finish. Starting to feel like a real 1911 forum in here.

Is why I stopped going to specific forums for the gun, and stayed at brianenos, there a three to five thousand dollar gun is specifically bought to be reliable through round 10,000, 50,000, 100,000, 200,000.

ETA: When I was starting out on handguns, that focus is what drove me to start on double stack plastic 9s. And then when upgrading, to get another, and another. Then when upgrading again to try Sig, HK, every duty weapon. Tried the 1911 as a laugh and hatred myself for loving it. Still feels like a guilty pleasure every time I see people clucking over microscopic finish issues instead of performance.

[BWT]

And this is what the 1911 defenders are down to... endless discussions on the function irrelevant parts of finish. Starting to feel like a real 1911 forum in here.

Is why I stopped going to specific forums for the gun, and stayed at brianenos, there a three to five thousand dollar gun is specifically bought to be reliable through round 10,000, 50,000, 100,000, 200,000.

ETA: When I was starting out on handguns, that focus is what drove me to start on double stack plastic 9s. And then when upgrading, to get another, and another. Then when upgrading again to try Sig, HK, every duty weapon. Tried the 1911 as a laugh and hatred myself for loving it. Still feels like a guilty pleasure every time I see people clucking over microscopic finish issues instead of performance.

My $500 Glock's checkering was fine. My $1,000 Dan wesson wasn't and the hammer broke almost in half? Am I being picky?

[Jeep]

[QUOTE=Tamara;257955]$499.00 - $3,700.00? No wonder Jeep seems puzzled. ;)[/QUOTE

Admittedly, I puzzle easily. Particularly when a lot of zeros are involved.

[threedogdad]

Timed grip screws? I'm apparently the most clueless 1911 shooter ever. Never even heard of such a thing.

Back in my college days, my old Colt, affectionately known as my "trailer park pistol," had its front sight held on by a big glob of JB Weld for more than a couple years before I had money to have a proper sight dovetailed in. And it still ran through thousands of rounds without any trouble.

I guess, like Tam's analogy about the Hyundais, I was just happy that it had all four grip screws.

Man, I love shooting that pistol.

[Jeep]

Doan need no steenkin' timing if you run allen head screws!

Notice how I was all tactically operator-ish and stuff by use of the verb form of "run"...


:cool:

.

I trust you were wearing multicam when typing that?

[tomr]

And this is what the 1911 defenders are down to... endless discussions on the function irrelevant parts of finish. Starting to feel like a real 1911 forum in here.

Is why I stopped going to specific forums for the gun, and stayed at brianenos, there a three to five thousand dollar gun is specifically bought to be reliable through round 10,000, 50,000, 100,000, 200,000.

ETA: When I was starting out on handguns, that focus is what drove me to start on double stack plastic 9s. And then when upgrading, to get another, and another. Then when upgrading again to try Sig, HK, every duty weapon. Tried the 1911 as a laugh and hatred myself for loving it. Still feels like a guilty pleasure every time I see people clucking over microscopic finish issues instead of performance.

Mostly agree.... I think.

[JHC]

Doan need no steenkin' timing if you run allen head screws!

Notice how I was all tactically operator-ish and stuff by use of the verb form of "run"...


:cool:

.

And SME-ish.

[Drang]

I mean aligned grip screws literally don't matter but after those examples you can see how they can matter because of what they indicate about how the manufacturer feels about the gun and customer's experience.

So, do you demand red or green M&Ms in your contract? :cool:

[LSP972]

I trust you were wearing multicam when typing that?

Doggone it… I KNEW I was forgetting something!

.

[LSP972]

And SME-ish.

Right. That too.

.

[45dotACP]

Doan need no steenkin' timing if you run allen head screws!

Notice how I was all tactically operator-ish and stuff by use of the verb form of "run"...


:cool:

.

Heh, beat me to it.

But seriously, I do have allen head screws on my gun. Really drives the bespoke 1911 crowd and the "smart 1911 operators" nuts ;)

[Urban_Redneck]

Taken as a poll, it appears most consumers of $3700 pistols don't care about timed screws and that's likely why smiths don't bother :rolleyes:

What's amusing is you can buy a $1500 Spanish shotgun and all the screws are timed.

Tag me eccentric.

[SAWBONES]

...but if they're taking the time the grip screws, they're probably taking the time to test other stuff.
...
I mean grip screws literally don't matter but after those examples you can see how they can matter because of what they indicate about how the manufacturer feels about the gun and customer's experience.


Other than on a gun-glamour photo spread by Ichiro Nagata, I don't think I've ever even seen a 1911 with its grip screw-slots "timed".

If I received a gun from a maker with all the grip screw slots turned to, say, perfectly horizontal, I'd fiddle with 'em myself to see if they were all equally tight or if they'd just been artificially positioned that way by loosening some and tightening others, in order to artificially line 'em up. And if such turned out to be the case, would that screw slot alignment really indicate a high degree of care taken with the things that matter on a 1911?

I wouldn't at all judge build quality by such measures.
In any case, as soon as I changed the grip panels, the screw slots wouldn't be expected to line up anymore.

My point is that those sorts of things don't matter and are by nature impermanent.

I suspect that all 1911 "factory custom" producers, even the more expensive ones like Wilson, consider that inconsequential cosmetic issues matter not a whit to product quality and functionality nor to that amalgam of aesthetics and function that ought to contribute to customer appreciation (e.g., a smooth-moving, properly tight and nicely contoured thumb safety lever, "oiled-glass" slide-to-frame fit, perfectly cut checkering, recessed and crowned muzzle, etc.).

Those latter sorts of things are important to "good looks" as well as to reliability and accuracy-precision, but they're all by nature rather solid, permanent aspects or features, that is, they don't change instantly like the angle of grip screw slots.

I really only want a pistol to work with thorough reliability, to shoot accurately and precisely, to be comfortable in the hand and to look (and to be) reasonably well-fitted and finished. That's about all, since I don't worry about displaying them or selling them, nor do I want to "mourn a boo-boo on my precious" :rolleyes: if the gun gets a little burnishing at points of contact.

[LSP972]

But seriously, I do have allen head screws on my gun. Really drives the bespoke 1911 crowd and the "smart 1911 operators" nuts ;)

My Ed Brown came with them. The only hard-core 1911 guys I knew I'm either out of touch with these days (moved, died, etc.), or have discovered combat tupperware, and relegated their 1911s to games and the occasional nostalgia shoot. In fact, of the folks who I have shown it to, perhaps only 25% even knew what it was (other than a 1911). I'm sure there is a lesson/point in there somewhere…


.

[tomr]

Taken as a poll, it appears most consumers of $3700 pistols don't care about timed screws and that's likely why smiths don't bother :rolleyes:

What's amusing is you can buy a $1500 Spanish shotgun and all the screws are timed.

Tag me eccentric.

Of course we shouldn't consider Spanish labor costs, or whats "de rigeur" (seems an appropriate phrase - eh?) on a Euro dbl shotgun?

[BWT]

Other than on a gun-glamour photo spread by Ichiro Nagata, I don't think I've ever even seen a 1911 with its grip screw-slots "timed".

If I received a gun from a maker with all the grip screw slots turned to, say, perfectly horizontal, I'd fiddle with 'em myself to see if they were all equally tight or if they'd just been artificially positioned that way by loosening some and tightening others, in order to artificially line 'em up. And if such turned out to be the case, would that screw slot alignment really indicate a high degree of care taken with the things that matter on a 1911?

I wouldn't at all judge build quality by such measures.
In any case, as soon as I changed the grip panels, the screw slots wouldn't be expected to line up anymore.

My point is that those sorts of things don't matter and are by nature impermanent.

I suspect that all 1911 "factory custom" producers, even the more expensive ones like Wilson, consider that inconsequential cosmetic issues matter not a whit to product quality and functionality nor to that amalgam of aesthetics and function that ought to contribute to customer appreciation (e.g., a smooth-moving, properly tight and nicely contoured thumb safety lever, "oiled-glass" slide-to-frame fit, perfectly cut checkering, recessed and crowned muzzle, etc.).

Those latter sorts of things are important to "good looks" as well as to reliability and accuracy-precision, but they're all by nature rather solid, permanent aspects or features, that is, they don't change instantly like the angle of grip screw slots.

I really only want a pistol to work with thorough reliability, to shoot accurately and precisely, to be comfortable in the hand and to look (and to be) reasonably well-fitted and finished. That's about all, since I don't worry about displaying them or selling them, nor do I want to "mourn a boo-boo on my precious" :rolleyes: if the gun gets a little burnishing at points of contact.

Not to be a jerk, but I said repeatedly I don't care about grip screw timing. I suggested that it might be an indication of attention to detail. I also said in the sentence that you quoted that it literally doesn't matter.

I own exactly zero semi-custom or custom guns. To me, quality is making sure things are correct. If a shop takes time time grip screws, they probably take time to ensure other things are correct.

They may or may not. That's all I was saying or alluding to.

[SAWBONES]

Not to be a jerk, but I said repeatedly I don't care about grip screw timing. I suggested that it might be an indication of attention to detail. I also said in the sentence that you quoted that it literally doesn't matter.

I own exactly zero semi-custom or custom guns. To me, quality is making sure things are correct. If a shop takes time time grip screws, they probably take time to ensure other things are correct.

They may or may not. That's all I was saying or alluding to.

No intention to be offensive to you or anyone else.

I just don't think that superficial features like grip screw slot alignment can be relied upon to imply anything about actual build quality.
Sorry if it seemed otherwise.

[Tuesday]

So, do you demand red or green M&Ms in your contract? :cool:

It was "no brown M&Ms" that Van Halen demanded, and it served a practical purpose in ensuring that the people they're working for had read the contract and done all the other stuff that was actually necessary, saving Van Halen from having to check every last piece of equipment themselves.

http://www.snopes.com/music/artists/vanhalen.asp

Of course, the prima donnas only care about the frivolous details, thinking they should be included as a matter of course.

[Drang]

It was "no brown M&Ms" that Van Halen demanded, and it served a practical purpose in ensuring that the people they're working for had read the contract and done all the other stuff that was actually necessary, saving Van Halen from having to check every last piece of equipment themselves.

http://www.snopes.com/music/artists/vanhalen.asp

Of course, the prima donnas only care about the frivolous details, thinking they should be included as a matter of course.

My comment was much more concise.

[Tuesday]

My comment was much more concise.

My comment was much more precise.

[BWT]

No intention to be offensive to you or anyone else.

I just don't think that superficial features like grip screw slot alignment can be relied upon to imply anything about actual build quality.
Sorry if it seemed otherwise.

I wasn't offended. We're good.

I know that in what I do in my job, that doing little things to ensure quality/peace of mind can help with how things are interpreted.

I was working with our CEO today on one of several issues that we've had with iPhones (specifically losing all calendar items after the update to iOS 8.0.2), not one person loses their items out almost 100 employees with iPhones and/or iPads nobody else was (ETA: affected). None of the other Executive staff, but the CEO? Yep. However, thankfully his calendars recovered because they were stored in Exchange.

It never ceases to amaze me.

But, doing extra things and like sending emails following up with a somewhat succinct (but detailed) explanation and swinging by hours after the fact to ensure things are working builds relationships. It also is an investment in ensuring the time that I do drop the ball; there may be some grace for me.

I agree with you that grip screw timing implies nothing. However, if someone is timing grip screws they're either A.) A great salesman (because it is something custom builders do (ETA: and doing this behavior may lead a buyer to suspect or draw conclusions that build quality may be comparable to a custom)) or B.) A meticulous craftsman. But there are literally millions of functional examples of 1911's without the grip screw timed and probably with idiot marks.

That's all I was saying.

[41magfan]

The mention of buffers earlier in this thread prompted me to post this. I pulled out an early 80 Series pistol that hasn't been out of the safe to see the light of day for 10-15 years. I handed it to a friend to shoot today at the range as I went about doing other things. He had 2 extraction failures in the first two magazines, which was unusual as this pistol doesn't usually fail without cause.

I noted it was dry as a bone so I lubed it, loaded a few magazines and fired it myself. The gun seemed to cycle in slow motion but did not fail to cycle for a full magazine. When I disassembled the pistol, what was left of the buffer was tied up in the recoil spring and small pieces were scattered around the dust cover.

If I continue their use, I'll be sure and check the condition of those that have been in long-term storage.

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/674/ISU1V5.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/iqISU1V5j)

[Dagga Boy]

Just curious, but how do you feel about the lower end Colts like the XSE and Colt Rail Gun? The former regularly dips below 900 online, but they've always given me pause for some reason. Is there a Colt built to the quality of something like the TRP (not just features), for a similar price?

Not Bill, but several folks I trust on this issue have said the Colt Rail Guns and XSE's are some of the best Colt guns ever made and ready to go out of the box. Even if you like some things done, much of the work on them is minimal. I just had my Rail Gun finished at MARS Armaments. I am secretly hoping all my polymer service guns break or stop working so I have an excuse to just carry this thing all the time.

Also...........I actually managed to post a picture:eek:!

[45dotACP]

That's a nice looking Colt, Nyeti!

[GJM]

Who did the custom work?

[Dave Williams]

Man that is a nice looking Colt!

[Jeep]

Very nice pistol.

[Dagga Boy]

Who did the custom work?

Steve Morrison at MARS Armaments.

[threedogdad]

Steve Morrison at MARS Armaments.

Highly recommended. He does great work.

[medic15al]

Awesome 1911....But...... Those hideous front serrations... Blasphemes the gorgeous sexy lines she has....

I want it!!