Boar hunting with 9mm vs .45 acp

[Duces Tecum]

Here's my (present) thinking: pigs are medical substitutes for willing human subjects, indicating a degree of physiologic equivalency. If that's accurate then it seems to follow that bullet testing while hunting boar results in meaningful comparisons. Then why are wild pigs unimpressed with 9mm yet fall to .45 acp. Can anybody offer some insight?

[Al T.]

124 grain 9mm Gold Dots have worked for me. YMMV.....

[GJM]

Are you considering equivalent bullet design and equivalent bullet placement?

I have little pig hunting experience. The one time I hunted them, my buddy shot one with a .30-06, and it ran off never to be found. Later that day, I shot one at 25 yards, lying almost flat on my back, through the brain with a Glock 23 and 165 Hydra Shock. While that load was pretty mild, the animal collapsed instantly with a geyser of blood streaming in the air. Impressive stop which probably shows more about bullet placement than anything to do with my load, caliber and pistol.

I don't think of 9, .40 or 45 to be first pick hunting calibers, but I am very interested in your experiences.

[foxj66]

I am far from an expert, but I believe the similarity in pigs and humans is the organs, yet the skin and bones are different. Also when shooting hogs your not generally shooting them COM from the front but from the side into the shoulder.

[okie john]

Aside from some of the women I dated while I was in the Army, humans also don't have a gristle plate covering their shoulders.


Okie John

[Duces Tecum]

Are you considering equivalent bullet design and equivalent bullet placement?

I have little pig hunting experience. The one time I hunted them, my buddy shot one with a .30-06, and it ran off never to be found. Later that day, I shot one at 25 yards, lying almost flat on my back, through the brain with a Glock 23 and 165 Hydra Shock. While that load was pretty mild, the animal collapsed instantly with a geyser of blood streaming in the air. Impressive stop which probably shows more about bullet placement than anything to do with my load, caliber and pistol.

I don't think of 9, .40 or 45 to be first pick hunting calibers, but I am very interested in your experiences.

The hunting was done over dogs, with broadside heart shots taken at less than 10 feet.Three pigs were harvested (2 with 9mm). Field dressing revealed the .45 pig was struck with a single round through the heart. No followup shots were taken and the pig collapsed within 20 seconds. My hunting partner shot the 9mm pigs once through the heart, but required followup shots as the pig(s) scurried off. Both 9mm pigs took longer to fall.

Understanding that anecdotes are not data, I was struck by the disparity. It's important to me personally as I'm leaning strongly towards replacing my G-23s with G-19s.

[TR675]

First, a pox on your house for starting a 9mm v. .45 debate ;).

Second, were I you I would hesitate to draw any conclusions about the efficacy of 9mm on bad people from this solitary hog hunting experience when multiple forum SMEs have repeatedly presented a wealth of data, both anecdotal and from gel testing, demonstrating that well designed 9mm loads are very effective and that the very real benefits of increased capacity and shootability far outweigh any theoretical benefit to a slightly larger round...Chucks comments vis a vis his departments experience with Gold Dots are especially illuminating.

[Duces Tecum]

:rolleyes:
First, a pox on your house for starting a 9mm v. .45 debate ;).

Second, were I you I would hesitate to draw any conclusions about the efficacy of 9mm on bad people from this solitary hog hunting experience when multiple forum SMEs have repeatedly presented a wealth of data, both anecdotal and from gel testing, demonstrating that well designed 9mm loads are very effective and that the very real benefits of increased capacity and shootability far outweigh any theoretical benefit to a slightly larger round...Chucks comments vis a vis his departments experience with Gold Dots are especially illuminating.

Pox accepted :)

I'm saddened you got that from my posting. The issue was not meant to be SME credibility. The question was: since 9mm is at least as effective as .45 acp in all things, why not these two (.45 v 9mm-A and v 9mm-B) times?

[45dotACP]

Aside from some of the women I dated while I was in the Army, humans also don't have a gristle plate covering their shoulders.


Okie John

Hilarious and absolutely true! Also, the piggies aren't standing on their hind legs when you shoot at them. Shot placement when hog hunting is absolutely paramount, mostly because the heart lies deep to the shoulder joint, unlike deer, where it is slightly behind. The lungs are also very far forward. So in summary:

-Armored Cartilage plate behind the shoulder
-Heart located deep to the actual shoulder bone
-Not facing front

I wouldn't take a shot on a big hog with a service handgun as my first choice, but I do realize that they are an "open season" type of critter and if the opportunity presents (hog small enough to be killed by a pistol) and I have a gun, it's a good thing to kill a pest. But I'd try to go for a quartering away shot.

A rifle is a different story. Then, I have the accuracy to go for the head, or possibly the power to break down the shoulder joint and drive far enough to get to the heart.

As for your hunting, a heavier bullet will drive deeper just because of the weight thing, and maybe the extra tissue damage because of the size? Did you recover the slugs and measure them?

[Haraise]

The question was: since 9mm is at least as effective as .45 acp in all things, why not these two (.45 v 9mm-A and v 9mm-B) times?

Try to use a known baseline, such as comparing 147gr HST to 230gr HST in service length barrels (4.25-5").

If what you're told doesn't match up with what your experiments tell you, then look closer at what you're told (9mm => .45).

[Duces Tecum]

Try to use a known baseline, such as comparing 147gr HST to 230gr HST in service length barrels (4.25-5").

If what you're told doesn't match up with what your experiments tell you, then look closer at what you're told (9mm => .45).

Known baseline . . . never thought of that. I was shooting 230s but I think my hunting partner was shooting 124s. That might be at least part of the answer. Thanks, Haraise.

[kobudo]

If one is going to be using 9mm(Glock 17 124 gr gold dots) would it be generally recommended to go for headshots or heartshots?

[TR675]

:rolleyes:

Pox accepted :)

I'm saddened you got that from my posting. The issue was not meant to be SME credibility. The question was: since 9mm is at least as effective as .45 acp in all things, why not these two (.45 v 9mm-A and v 9mm-B) times?

Understood, and if I misunderstood your post I apologize - I'm not the forum police and didn't mean to come across as such.

I do think previous posters are correct that anatomically people and pigs aren't really comparable.

[Duces Tecum]

Understood, and if I misunderstood your post I apologize - I'm not the forum police and didn't mean to come across as such.

I do think previous posters are correct that anatomically people and pigs aren't really comparable.

We're good. I'd hate to admit how many times I've misunderstood a communication.

[Al T.]

If one is going to be using 9mm(Glock 17 124 gr gold dots) would it be generally recommended to go for headshots or heartshots?

Headshots if I can get that hog organized correctly. As mentioned, the heart is further forward than most other critters. I like to break a shoulder either going in or coming out.

As for headshots, putting the bullet between the ears or slight behind, angling the bullet forward has worked for me.

Knowledge of (what ever critter your hunting) anatomy is pretty critical.

[rob_s]

I seem to recall one of the barfcom regulars being an avid 9mm boat hunter. Suppressed full-auto, perhaps.

I've always wanted to take a pig with my suppressed 9mm AR, but I hog hunt so infrequent that it's not high on my list of priorities.

I have a theory that a 147 grain subsonic 9mm that is designed to expand at that veolocity is more effective that a subsonic 300 WTF that retains it's shape. I'd like to test that theory on some pigs sometime.

[Hambo]

Once you cut into a boar, you'll understand how different they are from human beings. The skin/fat layer is thick and tough. I started using a razor knife to cut through the hide because it's easier to replace blades than sharpen a knife in the field. The gristle on the front of a boar isn't armor plate, but it is tough and more material to penetrate. Body hits behind the shoulder tend to exit, and you need it to trail them when they take off.

FWIW on penetration, I shot my biggest boar at a downward angle with a short barreled .338. Bullet was a Sierra 250gr SP over a starting load of RL19 and hit base of next/shoulder. Distance was 25-30 yards. The boar was DRT, but there was no exit wound. Granted the bullet was probably running in the 2000-2100fps range, but I was still surprised it didn't drive through. The same shot with a duty pistol would have been a bad day out.

[rob_s]

I seem to recall one of the barfcom regulars being an avid 9mm boat hunter. Suppressed full-auto, perhaps.

I've always wanted to take a pig with my suppressed 9mm AR, but I hog hunt so infrequent that it's not high on my list of priorities.

I have a theory that a 147 grain subsonic 9mm that is designed to expand at that veolocity is more effective that a subsonic 300 WTF that retains it's shape. I'd like to test that theory on some pigs sometime.

Sounds like I was right about the suppressor, sometimes full auto, and even FMJs

http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=10&f=9&t=606049

More here

http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=10&f=9&t=666697

[Al T.]

The gristle on the front of a boar isn't armor plate, but it is tough and more material to penetrate.

I dunno. Last big one I killed, that gristle plate stopped a round of OO buck pretty nicely. The pattern was about the size of my fist and we recovered 8 pellets lying on his rib cage with one solitary piece getting between two ribs. This was also the first time I recovered 12 ga slugs, usually (IME) slugs drill through and assume low earth orbit. :eek:

[Hambo]

I dunno. Last big one I killed, that gristle plate stopped a round of OO buck pretty nicely. The pattern was about the size of my fist and we recovered 8 pellets lying on his rib cage with one solitary piece getting between two ribs. This was also the first time I recovered 12 ga slugs, usually (IME) slugs drill through and assume low earth orbit. :eek:

I've only put Foster slugs in one, and not a big one at that. They penetrated far enough but did not exit.

[Hambo]

Sounds like I was right about the suppressor, sometimes full auto, and even FMJs


Be sure to check hunting regs. Here in Florida suppressors are a no-go for hunting.

[rob_s]

Be sure to check hunting regs. Here in Florida suppressors are a no-go for hunting.

I am in Florida, and as long as you're on private land, hogs aren't "game" they're "livestock" and you CAN shoot them with a suppressor.

[JHC]

I dunno. Last big one I killed, that gristle plate stopped a round of OO buck pretty nicely. The pattern was about the size of my fist and we recovered 8 pellets lying on his rib cage with one solitary piece getting between two ribs. This was also the first time I recovered 12 ga slugs, usually (IME) slugs drill through and assume low earth orbit. :eek:

That 00 buckshot result is pretty amazing. On the current shotgun thread it is reported how common it is for 00 to shot through BGs. Soft tissue vs hard cover and big hog structure must be a lot more like hard cover. Amazing.

[Hambo]

I am in Florida, and as long as you're on private land, hogs aren't "game" they're "livestock" and you CAN shoot them with a suppressor.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but it's not the impression I got from myfwc.com. The fact that they talk about not needing a license, lights at night, etc, but not an exemption to "no full auto or silencer-equipped" led me to believe it's not OK. If it is in fact legal, I'll be down at the suppressor store getting a can for my .338.

"Hunting"

Wild pigs are legally defined as wildlife and are the second-most popular, large animal hunted in Florida (second only to the white-tailed deer).

On private property with landowner permission, wild pigs may be trapped and hunted year round using any legal to own rifle, shotgun, crossbow, bow or pistol. There is no size or bag limit, and you may harvest either sex. Also, no hunting license is required. A gun and light at night permit is not required to take wild hogs with a gun and light on private lands with landowner permission.

"Prohibited methods of taking game"
-Fully automatic or silencer-equipped firearms