SIG P220 in 10MM

[David S.]

I'm going to just leave this right here. (http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/430601935/m/4280076263)


I want to make something crystal clear: The production of these pistols is not imminent. It's going to be a while.

[GardoneVT]

I'm going to just leave this right here. (http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/430601935/m/4280076263)

10mm is something of a conundrum cartridge. Without diverse pistol offerings in the caliber few consumers will buy one, which means fewer people will purchase the ammo which disincentives ammunition firms from selling it. Perhaps this model will break the cycle-my only hope is that Sig does not go down the road of the Bren Ten by releasing an untested product.

[gtmtnbiker98]

Interesting.

[Dave Williams]

I'm already looking forward to GJM's testing of these to see if they'll feed penetrator rounds from Buffalo Bore!

[David S.]

Funny. That was my first thought too.

[Sigfan26]

All I want is a p220 9mm! It would be so easy for them (and, it was the original chambering). A 10mm is kinda cool! Come out with a .40S&W conversion barrel and (obviously) a .357Sig barrel (as a kit), and it's a winner!

[GJM]

A Sig version of a 1076 would be welcomed here! Sort of like a 1076/1066 with a modern rail dimension, HD sights and Sig holster support.

[Wayne Dobbs]

Given the durability problems of the P220 in extended .45 ACP use, I'd think it would be a non-starter in 10mm.

[Sigfan26]

Given the durability problems of the P220 in extended .45 ACP use, I'd think it would be a non-starter in 10mm.

Maybe do an all steel version (like the stainless).

[GJM]

Given the durability problems of the P220 in extended .45 ACP use, I'd think it would be a non-starter in 10mm.


Maybe do an all steel version (like the stainless).

No idea whether Sig would beef up the 220 in 10mm and how durable they would be. The three proposed models are all stainless, as opposed to an alloy lower. I have one all stainless 220 and it feels very much like a 1076/1066 in dimension and weight.

[Sigfan26]

No idea whether Sig would beef up the 220 in 10mm and how durable they would be. The three proposed models are all stainless, as opposed to an alloy lower. I have one all stainless 220 and it feels very much like a 1076/1066 in dimension and weight.

All steel sounds good. Interested to see.

[Chuck Haggard]

Given the durability problems of the P220 in extended .45 ACP use, I'd think it would be a non-starter in 10mm.

This was my first thought as well.

I'd rather see them bring back a run of the .38 Supers, would give me a reason to buy something just because.

[LSP552]

I'm pretty sure that when Bruce Gray built custom P220s in 10mm, they were limited to shooting mid-power ammo. As intriguing as it seems, I'd bet the new P220s won't the be high volume shooters.

[BLR]

I've always wanted one.

[ST911]

Is there sufficient demand for 10mm to make this viable?

[GJM]

I'm pretty sure that when Bruce Gray built custom P220s in 10mm, they were limited to shooting mid-power ammo. As intriguing as it seems, I'd bet the new P220s won't the be high volume shooters.

A Sig 220 only capable of shooting mid power loads in 10mm sounds a lot like a .40 S&W, but with more expensive ammo that hasn't benefited from the LE driven JHP loads of the .40. To interest me, it needs to be strong, durable and reliable across a range of loads on par with a 1066. Of course the Sig collectors and rainbow finish SKU fanboys will love it regardless.

[LittleLebowski]

I've always wanted one.

In diamond plate.

[Tamara]

I'd rather see them bring back a run of the .38 Supers, would give me a reason to buy something just because.

Liking this so hard. I am just irrationally intrigued by .38 Super 220s.

[Hambo]

Liking this so hard. I am just irrationally intrigued by .38 Super 220s.

Oh yeah, I had one. It was an impulse buy because it was A) cheap, probably because of the Euro mag release and B) how can you resist .38 Super? If it had had a normal mag release I would probably still have it.

A P220 in 10mm? If it's a steel frame it would have my interest, alloy, not so much.

[Gary1911A1]

The Grey Guns conversion is very expensive too. Even at today prices I could buy two 1076s' and have money left over for a holster and some reloading supplies. I doubt Sig would make one even if they did sell enough of them due to returns for repairs. I did see a factory nickels 220 in 38Super with a side magazine release, but the shop wanted far to much money for it.

[David S.]

According to the thread Bruce Gray has been in contact with, and may be a consultant for, the SIG Sauer engineers on this project.


As for your question, the 10mm Norma cartridge demands a lot from any handgun. This new P220 will be adapted to meet that challenge head on.

I don't know where the 10MM Norma lies on the power spectrum, but seems relevant to some of the questions above.

[Suvorov]

A P220 in 10mm? If it's a steel frame it would have my interest, alloy, not so much.

I see where you are coming from from a longevity and shootability standpoint but to me the the attractiveness of a P220 in 10mm would be a TDS ten that didn't weight as much as my 1006 war club.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

I see where you are coming from from a longevity and shootability standpoint but to me the the attractiveness of a P220 in 10mm would be a TDS ten that didn't weight as much as my 1006 war club.

TDS...

I assume you're making a complex joke about the 220's probable longevity by referencing Total Dissolved Solids?

Sent from my SGH-I317M using Tapatalk

[JonInWA]

For GJM and the Alaska crew, I can see how this gun could make sense, with a steel frame for shootability/longevity, or with an alloy frame (if suitably durable) as a sort of a semi-auto mountain gun. It does seem to fill a pretty narrow market niche, though. Kudos to SIG, regardless.

Best, Jon

[Magic_Salad0892]

I didn't even realize that they made steel framed 220s...

I... am kind of interested.

[LorenzoS]

I just hope it will be available in rainbow diamondplate finish.

[Wayne Dobbs]

I can envision the demise of many Texas whitetails and feral hogs if the durability issues are solved to the extent any 10mm ammo can be utilized.

[LittleLebowski]

I can envision the demise of many Texas whitetails and feral hogs if the durability issues are solved to the extent any 10mm ammo can be utilized.

Now you're making me think of Stephen Camp. <raises glass>

[Magic_Salad0892]

I really wish that SIG would make the 226, or 229 with a steel frame, single action only and no rail.

They already make all the parts. They just don't stick 'em together in the right configuration. X-Five competition is the closest thing, but it has the 5'' barrel, and competition sights.

[BLR]

I can envision the demise of many Texas whitetails and feral hogs if the durability issues are solved to the extent any 10mm ammo can be utilized.
Wouldn't be much of a challenge, all the big stuff is done.

[Rich]

Only sig I care about now a days is the MK25 or P226R built with short extractor.

[foxsimple]

I really wish that SIG would make the 226, or 229 with a steel frame, single action only and no rail.

They already make all the parts. They just don't stick 'em together in the right configuration. X-Five competition is the closest thing, but it has the 5'' barrel, and competition sights.


You just described the sig x5 short and smart. Free of mim and the price reflects it. Its also the only x5 with a short extractor.

[Bruce Gray]

Hello! Bruce Gray here. This is my first post here on Pistol-Training.com, and I want to thank the admins for the opportunity to join my many friends here. I pledge to be only an asset to each of you, and an honest broker.

I wish to clarify a few comments and points regarding the Grayguns P220-10 project, and SIG Sauer's new 10mm initiative.

First off, I'm delighted that SIG has decided to take this ball and run with it. Our high-grade custom builds were very expensive, and were not at all "easy" or inexpensive to do. A considerable amount of hard work and testing went into these things. SIG can do things we could not, and that blows the door wide open to building a truly excellent and durable purpose-built 10mm Norma.

Without getting too far into the weeds, it is exactly that full-on, robust 10mm Norma pistol which I have advocated for, and which informs the recommendations we've made to our counterparts at SIG. Small things matter, as we all know. I believe SIG's engineers are paying attention to the small things, and they are certainly working hard to get the big things right. Slide mass, recoil spring unit specs and design, lockup dwell and so forth are all being considered appropriately.

I'd like to further clarify a couple things regarding our builds, and the ammo issue that has been so misunderstood due to my inarticulate attempts on other forums to explain what 10mm Norma really is, and is not.

Our builds were never limited to lower-powered ammo. We did simply try to explain the real and perceived differences between the original 200 / 1200+ 10mm Norma ballistics upon which SAAMI set their specifications and which became notorious for killing guns, the slightly toned-down factory loads that wisely followed the heroic initial offering, and the ultra-hot loads by which the small boutique makers try to differentiate themselves from those stodgy, boring major manufacturers.

These boutique loads are at least as safe to fire from our builds as they would be from a 1076 or other proper 10mm pistol. That is not at issue here. Rather, the fact that a given load doesn't blow the grips off your pistol doesn't make it a good idea to run all the time, and that's really all we were trying to tell people. Our builds were tested with 175gr. Silvertip at an advertised 1290fps for 225+PF. We fired a considerable amount of boutique 250PF stuff as well as cases of Blazer and so forth to prove the prototypes.

Within the limitations posed by the original P220ST frame and slide, we made no bones about long term service life with various loads. The same conditions apply to other 10mm pistols that were adapated from fullsize .45ACP designs, such as the 1006, EAA Perfect Ten, Delta Elite and so forth: run 250+PF loads all the time and it will wear out eventually, and most likely sooner than later.

If the 240PF original 10mm Norma load was hard on guns (and it was), we can only think the 264PF stuff one small outfit advertises is excessive in any practical sense. Yet, these boutique makers have been successful at creating the perception among 10mm fans that such ultra-powerful loads are in fact the standard benhchmark for the round, when they most certainly are not.

How does this relate to the new 10mm SIG offering being developed? For one thing, SIG is developing a series of 10mm loads for this pistol. As I have a lot of long experience with this cartridge in part from my time as tech manager of a bullet and ammunition company, I believe I can make a fair assessment and provide good input on these new loadings, and see them in their proper context. I'll happily report back as they are finalized. But for sure, the new P220ST 10mm will be fully capable of handling any reasonable ammo you wan to shoot, along with some that aren't so reasonable but which some folks are simply compelled to use.

BTW, the first two versions are expected to be out at SHOT 2015. Thank you for the opportunity to comment here. I disclose my strong interest in the success of this pistol, and am currently consulting with SIG Sauer on a number of projects. I humbly pray my reputation as an honest broker will be considered.

-Bruce

[JDM]

Welcome, Bruce.

Thanks for sharing what you know about this pistol.

[Bruce Gray]

Thank you again so much for this opportunity! -Bruce

[GJM]

Bruce, if Sig is interested, a 200 grain FMJ penetrator load about 1,200 fps, that is optimized for reliability in the new Sig would be attractive to folks carrying a 10mm around animals. Probably help sell more Sig pistols, and if it also ran in a Glock 20/29, result in ammo sales to outdoors 10mm users.

[45dotACP]

Bruce Gray dood! This forum is awesome(er)

[Gary1911A1]

Thanks Bruce. Looking forward to your report.