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UNK
09-21-2014, 09:02 AM
I have been reading everything I can find about a home defense arsenal. I cannot find any justification for choosing a shotgun over an AR except for cost. The shotgun is slow to reload, carries a limited amount of ammo, the ammo for it is large and heavy, the tube magazine is susceptible to damage rendering the shotgun useless.
Well the only justification I can see is for bears but those are very scarce here. Or for three gun.
Any substantial arguments for a shotgun being a necessity?

edit to add.
Actually I said that wrong. Its not about choosing a shotgun over an AR. What realistically does a shotgun bring to the table that the AR doesn't cover. Or an AR combo of a 5.56 and a .308.

Stephen
09-21-2014, 09:17 AM
For home defense, I don't think its the best choice either. But if you live in an area hostile to guns, I think there's a case to be made for using an 870 over a scary looking rifle. More generally, shotguns are just awesome guns. You can hunt squirrels with a 12 gauge and turn around and use the same shotgun for bear defense with slugs. It doesn't get more versatile than that. Plus the shotgun games and the fact they're just plain fun to shoot. And even during buying panics you can usually find shotgun ammo at Wal-Mart. You can buy a used Mossberg 500 for peanuts and its a fine gun that will last forever.

I think its a decent HD option for those who are resource constrained, plan to only have one gun, or live in a socialist utoptia. But most P-Fers would probably be better served with an AR.

UNK
09-21-2014, 09:22 AM
Well I'm in Kentucky. First guns are often given in the crib. Im primarily concerned about home defense, SHTF, civil unrest scenario. I can hunt just about anything with a .22.

Jay Cunningham
09-21-2014, 09:27 AM
Shotgun Pros:


widely available
inexpensive (baseline models)
legal in more areas
new ammo technology (Flite Control)
various ammo options
lower pressure means easier on the ears
ammo cheap and widely available
*may* be more acceptable to a jury



Carbine Pros:


small size, light weight
large onboard ammo capacity
easy to reload
ammo less likely to penetrate through walls
less recoil
fast follow-up shots
adaptability
aftermarket support
many qualified trainers to teach proper operation
easily suppressed
can engage effectively out to 200 yards



Shotgun Cons:


tend to be physically large
heavy recoil
low ammo capacity
more difficult to reload
good training less available
easy to short stroke a manual action
slower follow-up shots
autoloaders can be ammo finicky
can be difficult to add accessories
poor iron sights
close engagement range



Carbine Cons:


loud/blasty
"evil black rifle"
expense
availability
"assault weapon" - target of legislation
*may* be less acceptable to a jury

peterb
09-21-2014, 09:31 AM
The shotgun's advantages can include the cost of the gun and ammunition, social acceptability in some areas, and versatility of sporting and recreational uses. If those aren't important to you, and range and capacity is, the AR is a better choice.

UNK
09-21-2014, 09:34 AM
Nice list. I was hoping you would weigh in. I have an old police issue 870. I was looking at the Remington and the Beretta tactical autoloaders. Those are about a grand each. Hard to justify.

Shotgun Pros:


widely available
inexpensive (baseline models)
legal in more areas
new ammo technology (Flite Control)
various ammo options
lower pressure means easier on the ears
ammo cheap and widely available
*may* be more acceptable to a jury



Carbine Pros:


small size, light weight
large onboard ammo capacity
easy to reload
ammo less likely to penetrate through walls
less recoil
fast follow-up shots
adaptability
aftermarket support
many qualified trainers to teach proper operation
easily suppressed
can engage effectively out to 200 yards



Shotgun Cons:


tend to be physically large
heavy recoil
low ammo capacity
more difficult to reload
good training less available
easy to short stroke a manual action
slower follow-up shots
autoloaders can be ammo finicky
can be difficult to add accessories
poor iron sights
close engagement range



Carbine Cons:


loud/blasty
"evil black rifle"
expense
availability
"assault weapon" - target of legislation
*may* be less acceptable to a jury

JodyH
09-21-2014, 09:37 AM
I have been reading everything I can find about a home defense arsenal. I cannot find any justification for choosing a shotgun over an AR except for cost. The shotgun is slow to reload, carries a limited amount of ammo, the ammo for it is large and heavy, the tube magazine is susceptible to damage rendering the shotgun useless.
Well the only justification I can see is for bears but those are very scarce here. Or for three gun.
Any substantial arguments for a shotgun being a necessity?

edit to add.
Actually I said that wrong. Its not about choosing a shotgun over an AR. What realistically does a shotgun bring to the table that the AR doesn't cover. Or an AR combo of a 5.56 and a .308.

Can you show me a single home defense AAR where 9 rounds of #00 would not have sufficed? Obvious drug dealer rip-off invasions excepted.
I just don't see the capacity and reload arguments as being relevant to home defense.
Large and heavy? My loaded Beretta 1301 is lighter than my loaded 16" AR and within an inch in OAL.
I've never had a tube magazine issue in years of hard field use, range use, training classes and 3-gun. AR mags on the other hand, I have a bunch that were sidelined due to damage.

Shotgun's not a necessity, no long gun is realistically a necessity for the vast majority of home defense situations.
Nice to have, heck yea.

Shotgun brings a better hit ratio on moving targets.
Shotgun brings a better hit ratio through typical house construction materials like drywall. With the AR it's all or nothing, with the shotgun you have 8 or 9 chances and the round projectiles tend to not deflect as badly through things like drywall.

NH Shooter
09-21-2014, 09:44 AM
A carbine is hard to beat and if you already have one, so buying a SG for strictly HD may not need to be a priority.

That said, there is an interesting thread on M4C about the "political correctness" of a traditional shotgun, how one stood in a corner may not even get a second look by a non-enthusiast where an "assault rifle" would. In terms of effectiveness, there's no arguing that a hit with 00 buck at indoor HD ranges will stop the assailant as quickly as anything.

In my perhaps naïve POV on home defense, I don't plan on actively engaging a squad of hit men outside of my home in an extensive fire fight, or actively searching for them room-by-room inside my home. My plan is to take up the most easily defended position that will force them into a narrow "corridor of flying lead" if they decide to press the assault, and to call for help to local good guys in blue. In this scenario, a reliable SG is going to serve well.

As an aside, I had an old Remington 1187 Premier sitting in my safe unused for a long time. I decided to turn it into a HD project gun and it turned out really well. Shortened on both ends and lightly accessorized, it runs Federal LE loads perfectly and is amazingly maneuverable and fun to shoot. FWIW, it's positioned in front of my carbine in the event of a HD emergency.

http://www.canonshooter.com/photos2/1187-17.jpg


http://www.canonshooter.com/photos2/1187-16.jpg


http://www.canonshooter.com/photos2/1187-14.jpg


http://www.canonshooter.com/photos2/1187shells-1.jpg

Jay Cunningham
09-21-2014, 09:58 AM
Shotgun's not a necessity, no long gun is realistically a necessity for the vast majority of home defense situations.
Nice to have, heck yea.

Agreed.

UNK
09-21-2014, 09:59 AM
Thanks Jody. No I cant show you any AAR's.
Better hit ratio on moving targets. Because of a bead sight? It would be quicker than an iron sighted AR; Valid point
I wont have an iron sighted AR because of extreme astigmatism. It will always be scoped. I don't live in a McMansion so all shots would be pretty close. Outside of the house would be a different situation.



Can you show me a single home defense AAR where 9 rounds of #00 would not have sufficed? Obvious drug dealer rip-off invasions excepted.
I just don't see the capacity and reload arguments as being relevant to home defense.
Large and heavy? My loaded Beretta 1301 is lighter than my loaded 16" AR and within an inch in OAL.
I've never had a tube magazine issue in years of hard field use, range use, training classes and 3-gun. AR mags on the other hand, I have a bunch that were sidelined due to damage.

Shotgun's not a necessity, no long gun is realistically a necessity for the vast majority of home defense situations.
Nice to have, heck yea.

Shotgun brings a better hit ratio on moving targets.
Shotgun brings a better hit ratio through typical house construction materials like drywall. With the AR it's all or nothing, with the shotgun you have 8 or 9 chances and the round projectiles tend to not deflect as badly through things like drywall.

Jay Cunningham
09-21-2014, 10:00 AM
It looks like there's new shotgun suppressor technology, though I don't know much about it other than it exists.

Another potential downside is the whole "hostage taker shot" thing since you have a wad that flies unpredictably. How often does this kind of scenario actually happen? My goodness it's constant in shoothouses...

:cool:

NH Shooter
09-21-2014, 10:07 AM
Another potential downside is the whole "hostage taker shot" thing since you have a wad that flies unpredictably.

It seems the Federal FC wad takes about 15 to 20 feet to peel away from the main payload. Any shot within that range should strike as a single projectile. I'll need to verify the range at which I start seeing a separate strike from the FC wad.

TGS
09-21-2014, 10:12 AM
The comments about AR15s in "Socialist Utopias" from people who don't live in such states continue to make me laugh, given what is socially acceptable among citizens from state to state re: firearms is not really that different, IME. Remember, George Zimmerman spearheaded the effort to charge a white cop who beat up a black kid, and he worked extensively with black kids in after school programs. Even his ex-wife who has no shortage of criticism for the man, but still virulently denies any hint that he's racist. Still, the media had no problem turning him into the Grand Wizard of the KKK and one-step short of Hitler on the evil scale. What's more? This was in Florida, which ranks pretty high on gun rights. This didn't occur in a socialist utopia.

Point being, if they want to villianize you, they will. That shotgun you used to dirtnap the teen on his way to Church to turn around his life? To the prosecution, that's a sawed-off combat shotgun similar to the one used by soldiers to execute civilians in the My Lai massacre, and a favorite among criminals. They will find no trouble in turning you into a malicious person. The shit that most of us post on social media (including this website) will do infinitesimally more harm to your character in court than the gun you used, anyway. They're lawyers. They feed their family based off of their ability to serve their client; even if that means ruining peoples' lives, facts be damned.

I buy even less that "socialist utopias" are that drastically different in regards to what a jury will find acceptable. It really makes me laugh with how you guys put people from these places into some fictitious category of having a drastically different social strata than the rest of the US....it's eerily similar to WWI and WWII propaganda making the Huns or Japs out to be sub-human creatures. Some of the most dramatic and twisted case studies of self-defense shootings and how the jury viewed different facets through their through rose colored lenses aren't even from socialist utopias, they're from places like VA, TX, FL, ect where you guys want to imagine everyone is all cudly and snuggling with your blaster. So, in short, if you're afraid of an AR15 in a socialist state determining whether you're going to be Jamal's little spoon, then you should be concerned about it in your fictitious "free-state" as well.

As for objective reasons regarding a shotgun vs carbine, I would prefer a shotgun (Beretta 1301 in particular) over a carbine if I lived in a rural setting. I view a 5.56 carbine as an objectively better choice regarding ricochets and penetrating walls than a shotgun, for the same reasons many tactical teams have switched to carbines. That being said, I'm not a fan of big, long, heavy shotguns. I like shotguns that are lightweight with 5-6 round tubes and shorter barrels.

UNK
09-21-2014, 10:15 AM
Agreed.

But a long gun would be a first choice over a pistol I would think. For hits on target it looks like a pistol would be dead last.
This is all just a theoretical question and about getting opinions. I have a nine and a shotgun.
I don't have an AR but Im looking at them. The whole reason this came up is because I can get an AR for about the same as a tactical shotgun and it seems like the AR is more bang for the buck.

Jay Cunningham
09-21-2014, 10:32 AM
It seems the Federal FC wad takes about 15 to 20 feet to peel away from the main payload. Any shot within that range should strike as a single projectile. I'll need to verify the range at which I start seeing a separate strike from the FC wad.

I would LOVE to hear about any actual Heat-like hostage situation shots that an armed citizen pulled off. I have no idea if this ever happens in the real world.

UNK
09-21-2014, 10:34 AM
Im not sure what heat is but there have been two incidents recently in the news about a father making that exact shot however I think it was with pistols.
I would LOVE to hear about any actual Heat-like hostage situation shots that an armed citizen pulled off. I have no idea if this ever happens in the real world.

Jay Cunningham
09-21-2014, 10:36 AM
Heat is a movie; there's an iconic scene where Al Pacino makes a headshot on a BG holding a little girl. He uses a semi-auto rifle.

Chuck Haggard
09-21-2014, 10:40 AM
Shotgun Pros:


widely available
inexpensive (baseline models)
legal in more areas
new ammo technology (Flite Control)
various ammo options
lower pressure means easier on the ears
ammo cheap and widely available
*may* be more acceptable to a jury



Carbine Pros:


small size, light weight
large onboard ammo capacity
easy to reload
ammo less likely to penetrate through walls
less recoil
fast follow-up shots
adaptability
aftermarket support
many qualified trainers to teach proper operation
easily suppressed
can engage effectively out to 200 yards



Shotgun Cons:


tend to be physically large
heavy recoil
low ammo capacity
more difficult to reload
good training less available
easy to short stroke a manual action
slower follow-up shots
autoloaders can be ammo finicky
can be difficult to add accessories
poor iron sights
close engagement range



Carbine Cons:


loud/blasty
"evil black rifle"
expense
availability
"assault weapon" - target of legislation
*may* be less acceptable to a jury




Under shotgun "pros" you didn't list "at close range 12 and 20 gauge shotgun hits remove meat from bone".

I have seen traumatic arm amputations due to single close range 12 gauge hits, and deceased people that look more like they have been hit by an IED than a small arm round.

There is a reason why the average police shotgun OIS around here is a one round event.

Just sayin.


Don't mean to sound snarky, but it takes an NSR with a carbine to do the damage that a single close range shotgun round will produce.

UNK
09-21-2014, 10:41 AM
I hope he made it through the scene without spitting all over everything.
So more bang for the buck. AR or tactical shotgun. I'm leaning towards AR.

Heat is a movie; there's an iconic scene where Al Pacino makes a headshot on a BG holding a little girl. He uses a semi-auto rifle.

NH Shooter
09-21-2014, 10:55 AM
The whole reason this came up is because I can get an AR for about the same as a tactical shotgun and it seems like the AR is more bang for the buck.

As long as you don't live in a place where serious neutering is required to own one, then yes. But a good, reliable SG is still a lot less $$ then a good, reliable AR.

BTW, if you're looking for justification to spend the $$ on a quality AR, you should just go for it. Be advised though that they are money pits - unlike most shotguns, few ARs are left unaccessorized: you can never have too many mags, too much ammo, too good of an optic, too good of a rail, etc. Be prepared for the massive sucking sound of money being pulled from your wallet! ;-)

Chuck Haggard
09-21-2014, 11:06 AM
If one has a shotgun that works for the job then often, IMHO, there is little need for an AR unless one wants one.

Mission drives the gear train..........

I know several guys who are avid bird hunters and VERY proficient with a shotgun. They probably should stick with what they know.

Other guys I know have been military and have experience with the AR15/M16 FOWs and zero with the gauge. They shouldn't get a shotgun unless they are wanting to get some time in on the system.

I know lots of rural folks for whom the shotgun is a ballistic multi tool, good for bad guys, bird hunting, recreation, and coyotes trying to get the chickens/cats/pups. For this sort of thing a shotgun with a couple of extra barrels is a superb choice.
I know at least half a dozen folks that have a quality pump gun with the first couple of rounds on tap being high brass #4s, followed by OO buck. Not a bad set-up for the mission they have at their home.

If one has none of those concerns then an AR can make compete sense.



Even though I am a former SWAT guy, have a personally owned patrol rifle on the books that goes to work every day, I am a carbine instructor, and have almost 40 years of experience with the AR system, my first go-to home long gun is a wood stocked Mossberg 500. I've got almost as much time on the Mossbergs, we carry those at work in all of our cars, I bird and small game hunt with a shotgun. and frankly, appearance can matter.

Anything I shoot a bad guy with will be locked up in evidence for a good while. If the bad guy I shot was a gang banger or has friends/relatives/whatever that are now angry at my for shooting him then I'd rather still have the AR at home at that point.

Most of my home defensive chores would likely fall to my handguns at any rate, just due to portability. Then there is seeing who is at the front door, which gets a little dicey to do when armed with a long gun.

UNK
09-21-2014, 11:07 AM
Not really justification. It just occurred to me that for the money the shotgun is not such a good all round deal. I was looking at 1000 dollar semi tactical shotguns. I already have an 870. Im not much of a collector. Everything I have is purpose driven.

As long as you don't live in a place where serious neutering is required to own one, then yes. But a good, reliable SG is still a lot less $$ then a good, reliable AR.

BTW, if you're looking for justification to spend the $$ on a quality AR, you should just go for it. Be advised though that they are money pits - unlike most shotguns, few ARs are left unaccessorized: you can never have too many mags, too much ammo, too good of an optic, too good of a rail, etc. Be prepared for the massive sucking sound of money being pulled from your wallet! ;-)

UNK
09-21-2014, 11:09 AM
Good points. Thank you.

If one has a shotgun that works for the job then often, IMHO, there is little need for an AR unless one wants one.

Mission drives the gear train..........

I know several guys who are avid bird hunters and VERY proficient with a shotgun. They probably should stick with what they know.

Other guys I know have been military and have experience with the AR15/M16 FOWs and zero with the gauge. They shouldn't get a shotgun unless they are wanting to get some time in on the system.

I know lots of rural folks for whom the shotgun is a ballistic multi tool, good for bad guys, bird hunting, recreation, and coyotes trying to get the chickens/cats/pups. For this sort of thing a shotgun with a couple of extra barrels is a superb choice.
I know at least half a dozen folks that have a quality pump gun with the first couple of rounds on tap being high brass #4s, followed by OO buck. Not a bad set-up for the mission they have at their home.

If one has none of those concerns then an AR can make compete sense.



Even though I am a former SWAT guy, have a personally owned patrol rifle on the books that goes to work every day, I am a carbine instructor, and have almost 40 years of experience with the AR system, my first go-to home long gun is a wood stocked Mossberg 500. I've got almost as much time on the Mossbergs, we carry those at work in all of our cars, I bird and small game hunt with a shotgun. and frankly, appearance can matter.

Anything I shoot a bad guy with will be locked up in evidence for a good while. If the bad guy I shot was a gang banger or has friends/relatives/whatever that are now angry at my for shooting him then I'd rather still have the AR at home at that point.

Most of my home defensive chores would likely fall to my handguns at any rate, just due to portability. Then there is seeing who is at the front door, which gets a little dicey to do when armed with a long gun.

TR675
09-21-2014, 11:11 AM
I would LOVE to hear about any actual Heat-like hostage situation shots that an armed citizen pulled off. I have no idea if this ever happens in the real world.

Can't speak to "hostage" situations but Claude Werner has an extensive list of self defense shootings where family members were down range of the shooter. It looks fairly common even going by casual reviews of news articles and the Armed Citizen.

Noted that this is different than the precise situation you're talking about, but it's relevant. Also noted that it doesn't keep me from leaning an 870 in the corner.

Jay Cunningham
09-21-2014, 11:12 AM
Same relevance. The wad is a consideration, as is the pattern.

Stephen
09-21-2014, 11:16 AM
Can you show me a single home defense AAR where 9 rounds of #00 would not have sufficed? Obvious drug dealer rip-off invasions excepted.
I just don't see the capacity and reload arguments as being relevant to home defense.

Overall, I agree with you. But you made me curious so I did some searching. If you Google "three home invaders", you'll get a truckload of results. I was surprised at how many.

Here are a couple home invasions with 4 bad guys:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/mma-fighter-fends-attackers-killing-police-article-1.1567059
http://montreal.ctvnews.ca/home-invaders-target-rural-home-east-of-montreal-1.2006232 (Canuckistan)
http://www.nbc15.com/news/headlines/Police-Criminals-rob-Madison-couple-had-intended-to-target-a-different-home-246932291.html

And 5 home invaders:
http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2014/04/elderly_central_city_man_robbe.html
http://www.gunssavelife.com/?p=12290
http://q13fox.com/2014/09/16/masked-gunmen-pull-home-invasion-robbery-and-pistol-whip-family/ ("four to six invaders")

6 home invaders:
http://www.thestate.com/2014/07/18/3571654/teen-romance-rivalry-turns-scarey.html

7 home invaders:
http://bostonherald.com/news_opinion/local_coverage/2014/07/police_catch_home_invaders_flat_footed (robbed him for his sneaker collection wtf)

Even if you're attacked by a group of people, the odds of needing to shoot all four to seven crooks in a running gun battle are pretty much nil. In fact they'll probably run when the realize the home invasion turned into a gun fight, which supports Jody's assertion. But still, these stories about groups of home invaders make me want a high-cap HD gun. Do you guys agree that capacity and reloads don't need to be a major consideration for that role?

Chuck Haggard
09-21-2014, 11:16 AM
The shot wad can be dangerous quite a ways out.

One reason why I always thought the "hostage rescue" shot with a shotgun was nothing more than a range stunt. But then I think pretty much the same for most similar range problems when using a handgun to solve it.

TGS
09-21-2014, 11:19 AM
Even if you're attacked by a group of people, the odds of needing to shoot all four to seven crooks in a running gun battle are pretty much nil. In fact they'll probably run when the realize the home invasion turned into a gun fight, which supports Jody's assertion. But still, these stories about groups of home invaders make me want a high-cap HD gun. Do you guys agree that capacity and reloads don't need to be a major consideration for that role?

Yes, but if they're organized enough to run in a pack like that, then I'm also going to assume they're wearing soft body armor as well....in which case a 5.56 carbine makes a whole lot of sense over a shotgun....high-cap or not.

IIRC Chuck had mentioned a growing trend of groups using body armor and cover tactics in home invasions.

5pins
09-21-2014, 11:22 AM
Regardless of how a jury in some states may view a shooting with a shotgun vs an AR, a pump action shotgun will be easier to purchase.

TR675
09-21-2014, 11:29 AM
Same relevance. The wad is a consideration, as is the pattern.

Yep...that's why I said it was relevant ;).

TR675
09-21-2014, 11:30 AM
Regardless of how a jury in some states may view a shooting with a shotgun vs an AR, a pump action shotgun will be easier to purchase.

...how so?

peterb
09-21-2014, 11:42 AM
I was looking at 1000 dollar semi tactical shotguns. I already have an 870. I'm not much of a collector. Everything I have is purpose driven.

If you're already comfortable using the 870 you own, the best bang-for-the-buck in the short term might be to add a light, a detachable sling, and a short barrel if you don't already have them. That gives you a solid home defense option at low cost without having to train on something new.

If adding an AR makes sense, the 6720 thread here might be worth a look.
http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?8593-Thoughts-on-the-Colt-AR6720-Lightweight-LE-Carbine

5pins
09-21-2014, 11:46 AM
...how so?

Well, in places like Connecticut one can buy a pump shotgun but not an AR.

NH Shooter
09-21-2014, 12:04 PM
Even if you're attacked by a group of people, the odds of needing to shoot all four to seven crooks in a running gun battle are pretty much nil. In fact they'll probably run when the realize the home invasion turned into a gun fight, which supports Jody's assertion.

This continues to be the scenario on which my in-home defense plans are based. If they are actually an organized group of heavily armed intruders bent on killing me, I am most likely screwed regardless of what I've pulled out of the safe.

EM_
09-21-2014, 12:20 PM
For what it's worth I will echo all of Chuck's experience with the gauges. I have very similar qualifications to the good L-T, albeit with less time pushing the car. I also choose a gauge for in-home situations. Caliber, etc., may not matter, until one gets to the gauges. Other guns do not do the damage 12 and 20 gauges do to humans in normal shooting distances.

As for the number of home invaders present, I would be *really* shocked if most, if not all, of those were anything other than drug (or related) ripoffs. I'd be far more interested to hear what the investigating detectives thought over what the news reports. When I gave briefs to the media I never said anything other than the facts of "X happened to Y at Z time, at W location." Not that X was a drug dealer/gang banger/biker/serial robber, and Y was also, and every cop on the street expected something to happen at W on a given night.

Drang
09-21-2014, 12:20 PM
Why do so many people recommend shotguns over carbines for home defense? Simple:
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/.a/6a00d8341c630a53ef01156fa4cd3c970b-pi
TRADITION!

For decades it's what everyone had, because it was the most suitable, it was the most versatile, the most likely single long gun to be owned. It could (and still can) be used in deer season - some places it's all that's legal - bird season, and "Get off my lawn!" season (for both 2- and 4-legged vermin.)
And "everybody knows" the bad guys will experience PSH and run away screaming like little girls when they hear you "rack" the action. :rolleyes: (Alas, some still believe that.)
It's still a good choice, it's just not necessarily the best choice these days.

Jay Cunningham
09-21-2014, 12:29 PM
I'd be interested in an apples/apples and apples/oranges discussion on close range effects of 12 gauge 00 vs. 12 gauge slug vs. 55 gr. m193.

It'd be cool to have Gary R. and any others with personal experience like Chuck... LEOs, EMTs... doctors...

We have a lot of the theory and testing posted in Gary's threads, but hearing some first hand accounts of long guns vs. criminal (non-military) threats would be quite interesting.

Chuck Haggard
09-21-2014, 12:33 PM
There is this; http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4334-Home-Defense-Long-Guns that gives a quick thumbnail visual.

And some stuff to watch;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhZf_x8Esms

If one has time then this is interesting;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6noiXAFHAE8

Jack Ryan
09-21-2014, 12:51 PM
I have been reading everything I can find about a home defense arsenal. I cannot find any justification for choosing a shotgun over an AR except for cost. The shotgun is slow to reload, carries a limited amount of ammo, the ammo for it is large and heavy, the tube magazine is susceptible to damage rendering the shotgun useless.
Well the only justification I can see is for bears but those are very scarce here. Or for three gun.
Any substantial arguments for a shotgun being a necessity?

edit to add.
Actually I said that wrong. Its not about choosing a shotgun over an AR. What realistically does a shotgun bring to the table that the AR doesn't cover. Or an AR combo of a 5.56 and a .308.

Justification for a shotgun? You know guys will find or not find justifications for just about anything you can imagine they want to buy or not find it for what they don't want. If you really want unbiased comparisons of the performance of weapons under exactly the same conditions by regular gun guys, not professionals, take a look at some competitions guys put together just for fun.

For instance here is one. No prize money. Years of records. Several weapons types from revolver, pistol, rifle, shotgun. They all shoot the same string of targets from the same position. Only thing different is how long does it take to hit six targets. They shoot each set of targets 3 times for a string of 18 targets at each of 5 stations set up in various position. Six shots or several magazines all that is recorded is how long does it take you to hit them. The total is the number of seconds it took at every station.

Look at the shotgun times and compare it to everything else.

http://www.indyrange.org/Friday_Night_Steel.php

Tamara
09-21-2014, 12:54 PM
And look how much better a shotgun is at skeet than an AR-15! I mean, since we're picking things with extremely tenuous relationships to shooting some dude in your living room.

(And I say this as someone who switched the 870 propped in the corner out for a 16" 5.56 AR carbine nearly a decade ago.)

JodyH
09-21-2014, 01:15 PM
Here's what's in my bedroom safe, 3' from my bed.
This safe has the guns I carry or want available immediately.
The door to this safe is open when I'm home.

Notice the Beretta 1301 Tactical is first on deck followed by a 12" suppressed AR, 20 round PMAG with a Surefire Mini-Scout light. Both have iron sights only.
An ancient Remington Scoremaster bolt action .22 is in there for varmints.
Carry and bedside handguns are on the top shelf.

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p82/JodyHuggins/20140921_120902_zpsitw1oqoz.jpg

LHS
09-21-2014, 01:25 PM
Given my rural, non-LE/non-MIL background, I have far more time behind an 870 than any other long gun. I'm comfortable with it, I know it intimately, and that counts for a lot. Is the AR a 'superior' HD weapon? Depends. For me, I'm kind of on the fence, trying to balance capacity and ability to penetrate soft armor vs. lethality-per-round and familiarity. I do think that the AR is probably easier to run. Shotguns, especially pumps, seem to me to require more training to use at baseline efficiency. I've seen a lot of new shooters short-stroke a pump gun and lock it up hard. I know I did it when I first started using them. I think the AR's more versatile, works well in more situations, and is easier for most folks to use. That said... I still keep the 870 handy.

JodyH
09-21-2014, 01:29 PM
btw: steel USPSA silhouette at 10 yards, #6 high brass (kicks as hard as Fed #00), Beretta 1301 Tactical = 8 rounds on target in <3 seconds from low ready.

Jay Cunningham
09-21-2014, 01:35 PM
I'd prefer the shotgun if I had to deal with a 4 legged threat, generally speaking. Rabid dog vs. 870 = problem solved, problem staying solved.

I'm no hunter, but I imagine slugs could handle a bear if that's a realistic threat in your neck of the woods.

czech6
09-21-2014, 01:45 PM
I look at shotguns like bumbles bees. They don't work out all that well on paper, but in the real world they do surprisingly well.

From a police perspective, one thing that rarely rears it's ugly little head, but it's a major fiasco when it does, is dealing with big dangerous animals. A 12 gauge with Rottweil/Brenneke/Fed DPRS slugs are the only common weapon in LE inventory available to deal with big animals (not saying ideal). Some of the high profile events include the elephant in HI, the tiger at the San Fran Zoo, a Gorilla in Dallas, and the suicidal guy in Ohio who released his private zoo. Even livestock animals can be deadly when they escape. A sheriff's deputy near Tyler, Tx was killed a couple years ago by an injured cow that had gotten loose, and then been hit by a car.

Anecdotally, shotguns at my agency have been historically been low round count fight stoppers. There several shootings where bad guys have had limbs effectively detached from their bodies and a lot of one shot DRT outcomes. Once again, anecdotally, rifles haven't been the magic that some folks have billed them up to be, the range advantage has not been much of a factor. There's been a couple shootings where that round count has hit double digits stopping bad guys, and 5-8 round burst of fire aren't uncommon.

NH Shooter
09-21-2014, 02:03 PM
Here's what's in my bedroom safe, 3' from my bed.


Nice selection, that suppressed SBR is nice. :-)

UNK
09-21-2014, 02:25 PM
From Doc KGR http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4334-Home-Defense-Long-Guns

1/4/14

As many of the previous posts note, there are multiple factors that will play a role in determining which weapon might be the best choice for home defense.

From a pure wound trauma standpoint on a shot against unarmored soft tissue, a close range hit from a 12 ga shotgun using buckshot will create more damage than any 5.56 mm projectile; it is for this reason that Dr. Fackler has expressed his preference for 12 ga buckshot over 5.56 mm for close range defensive use. Compared to pistol caliber weapons, virtually any shoulder fired carbine caliber weapon or 12 ga shotgun will prove superior from a wound ballistic standpoint. Keep in mind that over the past 20 years, the vast majority of the 5.56mm/.223 loads we tested have exhibited significantly less penetration than 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, and 12 ga. shotgun projectiles after first penetrating through interior walls. Stray 5.56mm/.223 bullets seem to offer a reduced risk of injuring innocent bystanders and an inherent reduced risk of civil litigation in situations where bullets miss their intended target and enter or exit structures, thus 5.56mm/.223 caliber weapons may be safer to use in CQB situations, home defense scenarios, and in crowded urban environments than handgun service caliber or 12 ga. weapons. Below are the wound profiles of unobstructed shots at 3 meters, comparing several weapons that might be used for home defense:



Note that the M1 carbine, 16” barrel AR15, 18” barrel shotgun with a “youth” stock, and 16” barrel lever action carbine are all approximately the same length and offer the equivalent ease of maneuvering, so bickering about weapon size is a somewhat moot point when comparing weapons of this type. From an ergonomic and weapon manipulation standpoint, the AR15 is far superior to the other weapons, followed by the M1 carbine, and then distantly trailed by the shotgun and lever action carbine. Likewise, the AR15 is the most modular and allows the easiest mounting of various accessories. Unfortunately, AR15’s are also usually more expensive. In addition, in some locales, AR15’s are more highly regulated and/or feared than other less “scary” looking weapons; in those areas, an AR15’s “military” appearance may prejudice some LE officers who respond to a lethal force incident, as well as the DA and jury… If living in a state with asinine legal restrictions on firearms regulations or a liberal “weapon phobic” region, a PC, plain-jane appearing shoulder fired weapon that does not scare the metaphorical sheep might be prudent…

In an indoors static defensive role against a single violent assailant who was advancing on me, a 12 ga. shotgun would be my first choice. However, if multiple criminals were assaulting me, if a precision shot was required, if the assailant was wearing body armor, in a time of domestic unrest and upheaval with potentially large crowds of hostile individuals roaming about, or in situations that would require movement outdoors, then I would far prefer a magazine fed shoulder fired weapon capable of greater range, faster reloading, and greater ammunition capacity than a shotgun. In addition, of the shoulder fired weapons commonly used for self-defense, shotguns are the most difficult to effectively employ and require the most training to properly use.

Most citizens would do well to follow the lead of LE agencies in their locale and pick similar weapons to what LE feels is prudent and necessary for defensive use against the criminals in that jurisdiction. Often times these days that is 9 mm or .40 pistols with a 15-17 round magazines and AR15's with 30 rd magazines.

Finally, there is the matter of weapon familiarity and training. In 20+ years of military and LE use, I have fired far more rounds of ammunition, had more training with, and greater experience using AR15 based rifles than any other type of shoulder fired weapon. And while I have also trained with and used other shoulder fired weapons including MP5’s, M14’s/M1A’s, shotguns, bolt guns, and the odd M1 "Garand" rifle, M1 carbine, and lever gun—baring legal restrictions, in a chaotic, stress filled situation, I would feel most comfortable and confident using an AR15 based weapon due to my previous training and experience.

Jack Ryan
09-21-2014, 02:47 PM
And look how much better a shotgun is at skeet than an AR-15! I mean, since we're picking things with extremely tenuous relationships to shooting some dude in your living room.

(And I say this as someone who switched the 870 propped in the corner out for a 16" 5.56 AR carbine nearly a decade ago.)

If I lived in Faluja, I'd almost agree with you. Since the topic given was home defense I just assumed it was America. No one mentioned skeet but it is a great way to keep up your skills. You'd never hit one in a million years with an AR.

You can kill or hunt anything in north America with one 12 gauge shotgun and never change a thing on it other than ammunition. You can load it on the run and if you can't handle a lot of bulky ammunition in your own home, where will you? Ever?

Do as you like but more people take down more targets faster with semi auto shotguns than any other weapon.

Tamara
09-21-2014, 02:52 PM
If I lived in Faluja, I'd almost agree with you. Since the topic given was home defense I just assumed it was America. No one mentioned skeet but it is a great way to keep up your skills. You'd never hit one in a million years with an AR.

Wasn't saying a shotgun won't work, just pointing out that Friday Night Steel has nothing in common with home defense except there's a gun generally involved. But if I ever have my living room invaded by five widely spaced bad guys that can each be dropped with a single round of #7.5 Wally World promo birdshot, I'll remember to grab the gauge. Or maybe my M&P 15/22; those things look blistering fast at Speed Steel matches, too.

UNK
09-21-2014, 02:59 PM
Hey Jack Check out these photos. :-) You are going to love this. http://www.chiefaj.com/rifle_trap_shooting.htm


If I lived in Faluja, I'd almost agree with you. Since the topic given was home defense I just assumed it was America. No one mentioned skeet but it is a great way to keep up your skills. You'd never hit one in a million years with an AR.

You can kill or hunt anything in north America with one 12 gauge shotgun and never change a thing on it other than ammunition. You can load it on the run and if you can't handle a lot of bulky ammunition in your own home, where will you? Ever?

Do as you like but more people take down more targets faster with semi auto shotguns than any other weapon.

Doug
09-21-2014, 03:16 PM
Someone brought up noise and sound pressure.

Although I have shot 5.56 carbines, double ear pro, at an indoor range, I have never done so with a shotgun. I did note the concussion from a carbine indoors. I also understand there has been Internet discussion that sound is a non factor during a shooting, specific to hearing damage or effect.

But my question is who has shot both shotgun and 556 carbine indoors and what are your thoughts on the comparison on the sound effects?

PS At the indoor range, the least loud of all, pistols or long guns 4me, are the 9 mm 16 inch carbines from both a bystander and shooter perspective.

JodyH
09-21-2014, 03:44 PM
But my question is who has shot both shotgun and 556 carbine indoors and what are your thoughts on the comparison on the sound effects?
See my safe picture earlier in the thread.
I've shot both a AR and a 12ga. indoors.
I consider a suppressor mandatory for an AR that's going to be used indoors without earpro.
12ga. sucks but the tone isn't nearly as disconcerting as a AR (especially anything shorter than 16").
On "shoot through the barrel" or "narrow, solid wall hallway" stages in 3-gun you'll see that followup shots are much slower when people are dealing with the extreme concussion in confined spaces.

NH Shooter
09-21-2014, 03:55 PM
http://www.silencerco.com/salvo/

Check out the video, sound on.

JM Campbell
09-21-2014, 04:14 PM
In max configuration it is 12" long and 32oz added to your barrel...132.0 db at the ear.

In min configuration it is 6.42" and 18.5oz added to your barrel.....140.6 db at the ear.

Is it really worth it at $1400 MSRP?

NH Shooter
09-21-2014, 04:26 PM
Is it really worth it at $1400 MSRP?

No, but neither is buying an AR strictly for home defense if you already have an 870 (or visa versa some might argue). But the idea of a suppressor on any HD weapon is a good one, I think....

Doug
09-21-2014, 04:52 PM
12ga. sucks but the tone isn't nearly as disconcerting as a AR (especially anything shorter than 16").
On "shoot through the barrel" or "narrow, solid wall hallway" stages in 3-gun you'll see that followup shots are much slower when people are dealing with the extreme concussion in confined spaces.

Thank you. That was the kind of comparisons I was looking for.

As for my limited concussion experience indoors on a small range, it was the same. When I got to shoot a 556 full auto and fast semi auto inside, felt like my skull was rattling with the concussion. Some were 14.5 inch barrels.

GJM
09-21-2014, 05:43 PM
Sorry if this has been covered -- I have been in the air all day and skimmed the thread.

It isn't handgun or long gun, it is both. It isn't shotgun of AR, it is both.

The shotgun removes chunks with buck and slugs. With Brenneke slugs the wad is attached. It is quieter than an AR. There is less offset than an AR at close range. You can defend against two legged creatures, and also dispatch the snake, raccoon and flying squirrel with the shotgun. Shoot less lethal with proper precautions. Pattern can be a good thing without glasses/contacts in the dark. The shotgun has nifty SF light options. It might look more PC. Ammo is almost always available, even during panic buying times. And, #1 on the Letterman list is Joe Biden recommends it.

NH Shooter
09-21-2014, 06:24 PM
One concern I have with a SG is keeping shells loaded in a tubular magazine. I have heard that doing so will slowly deform the plastic hulls over time leading to cycling failures in a time of need. Anyone with real world insight on this?

ranger
09-21-2014, 06:41 PM
Why a shotgun? I live north of Atlanta in suburb in a rural setting. We have seen venomous snakes in the yard - Copperheads - and we constantly have coyotes in the area, sometimes very close - so far, none in the yard but right up to the fence (1 acre lot). Close enough they shut up when a door is eased open. I bought a "youth model" 20 gauge automatic with shorter stock and 24 inch barrel for my wife. First round is a Remington Sporting Clays 7.5 "birdshot" followed by four 20 gauge buckshot - assume first round for snake and the buckshot for coyotes. I travel a lot for job and this is my wife's tool for 1) venomous snakes, 2) coyotes, 3) two legged varmints. She has a S&W M&P FS 9mm with a WML too but she tried to shoot a copperhead already with that with limited (no) effect.

I took a tactical shotgun class a few years ago from Erik Lund - I learned a lot from that one day class. I am very comfortable with ARs in my profession but 9 pellets of 00 buck is impressive on target. I am a fan of semiauto shotguns as I competed for many years with semiautos in Sporting Clays. Low recoil 00 buck out of a quality semiauto shotgun allows for fast followup shots.

I have a 12 gauge 21 inch barrel semiauto with a WML loaded with 00 buckshot for HD backed up by a G35 with WML. ARs are in the safe.

GJM
09-21-2014, 08:57 PM
One concern I have with a SG is keeping shells loaded in a tubular magazine. I have heard that doing so will slowly deform the plastic hulls over time leading to cycling failures in a time of need. Anyone with real world insight on this?

Huh, my half dozen shotguns live loaded with buck or a Brenneke slugs, for years at a time, and I have never observed this?

Chuck Haggard
09-21-2014, 09:01 PM
One concern I have with a SG is keeping shells loaded in a tubular magazine. I have heard that doing so will slowly deform the plastic hulls over time leading to cycling failures in a time of need. Anyone with real world insight on this?


Heard of this, never seen it, and we leave our shotguns loaded all year long, in cars that are subjected to the very hot summers here. Never had a problem.

Malamute
09-21-2014, 09:43 PM
... She has a S&W M&P FS 9mm with a WML too but she tried to shoot a copperhead already with that with limited (no) effect.


The CCI 9mm birdshot loads work pretty well at about 5 feet. I keep a spare 10 rd mag (was cheap, nobody wanted them at the LGS) loaded with them and just stick it in and chamber a round when desired.

I was going to see how the shells that have been loaded in my 870 with the factory mag extension for the past 8-10 years were faring, but that's been covered pretty well by now.

ssb
09-21-2014, 11:00 PM
For me, it's because I'm reasonably confident that sixteen pellets of number one shot are going to do very bad things to the target very quickly. And if the first round doesn't work there are eight more in the tube behind it. I've also got four more in the side saddle on the gun, and two slugs for good measure. I practice making quick follow-up shots weekly at the range, and frequently practice reloading with dummy rounds. IMO, between the twenty-one rounds in my pistol and the fifteen on the shotgun, that's plenty for a little fight.

I have a semi-automatic shotgun. I'm not concerned with short-stroking the gun because there's nothing to short-stroke. I'm also not concerned about what the pellets are going to do downrange should I miss (or, rather, less concerned) because I don't have family/others that are going to be walking around where I live. I also have some excellent backstops available, including a very nice hillside about 20 yards from my front door/front face of my building (a very likely field of fire given the setup of where I live). My plan involves barricading in place. Frankly, there's nothing outside my bedroom door worth me dying over -- I don't care about my TV that much. I'm not concerned about clearing rooms or anything like that because there's nothing outside my bedroom that would give me cause to move.

But the biggest reason of all? I'm confident with it. I enjoy the hell out of shooting the gun, which means I've got more time behind it. The ballistics of the rounds I'm shooting, especially at the ranges I'll be shooting at, give me lots of warm fuzzies as well. Call that irrational if you'd like.

Paul D
09-22-2014, 12:33 AM
I have two 870's (18" and 14" barrels) for defense and some Beretta autos and O/U for hunting/clays. I was always told by shooting instructors back when that the pump action on average is more reliable across all loads. This is why I chose the 870. Is this line of thinking still true or can start looking at the Beretta 1301 without worry. I tell you what, I can practice with my Beretta auto all day but not my O/U or 870.

GJM
09-22-2014, 04:11 AM
I have two 870's (18" and 14" barrels) for defense and some Beretta autos and O/U for hunting/clays. I was always told by shooting instructors back when that the pump action on average is more reliable across all loads. This is why I chose the 870. Is this line of thinking still true or can start looking at the Beretta 1301 without worry. I tell you what, I can practice with my Beretta auto all day but not my O/U or 870.

The pump is probably more reliable across a range of loads, considering just the shotgun. A good semi is likely more reliable considering shooter and the shotgun together, and especially when using loads appropriate for your shotgun.

My Benelli M2 20 gauge is an awesome Brenneke launcher -- lightweight, fast cycling, and easy on your shoulder. I might prefer a 12 for primarily shot use, but the 20 is great for slugs, where there is likely no difference with a hit with a 20 gauge Brenneke versus a 12 gauge Brenneke. Also, for a women with shot, the 20 is ideal. My wife, who is very experienced and not recoil sensitive, refers to the M2 20 as her shoulder fired Glock.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/imagejpg2_zps5e891844.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/imagejpg2_zps5e891844.jpg.html)

NH Shooter
09-22-2014, 05:50 AM
Heard of this, never seen it, and we leave our shotguns loaded all year long, in cars that are subjected to the very hot summers here. Never had a problem.

Chuck, thanks for the response. That was my thought too but since a G17 is my primary HD gun, I keep the SG empty but shells within-reach handy.

I'm going to load the magazine, cycle the rounds out every few months and put my caliper on each shell to see if anything is happening.

Hambo
09-22-2014, 06:51 AM
In this county, virtually all home invasions are drug related; i.e. ripping a dealer for money/drugs, payback for same, or for non-payment for drugs. Since I'm not in that biz, I'm not all that worried about someone kicking in the door. Also, my home is not large, so if someone does kick in my door I'll probably have time to roll over and grab my pistol and not much else. Given that reality a handgun and light, or handgun with a light, is sufficient.

LSP972
09-22-2014, 07:34 AM
One concern I have with a SG is keeping shells loaded in a tubular magazine. I have heard that doing so will slowly deform the plastic hulls over time leading to cycling failures in a time of need. Anyone with real world insight on this?

It can be an issue with cheaply-manufactured shells. We saw a lot of it back in the 90s in our 870s and Ithaca 37s... and not all of those had extended mag tubes. What was happening was not deformation of the plastic hull, but that part was actually getting cock-eyed (crooked) in the brass base, causing feeding/chambering issues. Some of them were actually getting stuck in the mag tube.

These were low-bid standard buckshot loads from Federal. The issue disappeared after we started buying H132 "tactical" 00B.


.
.

Default.mp3
09-22-2014, 08:50 AM
Does anyone have any thoughts on running all slugs for self-defense, rather than #1 or #00 buckshot? I am aware that Louis Awerbuck advocated all slugs, but I'm was never told why he had preferred that load.

Does an SBS'd shotgun have any significant loss in velocity for slugs (primarily concerned from 18.5" to 14")?

GJM
09-22-2014, 08:56 AM
Louis advocated slugs so he didn't have to worry about what his pattern was at different distances.

Chuck Haggard
09-22-2014, 09:40 AM
I know several folks who leave one round short in their mag tube, most so that they can select slug immediately, others because they feel it keeps the springs and ammo happier longer. I've never seen the need for it, but it if makes a person feel better about leaving the gun loaded all the time then being one round down ain't that big a deal.

Jay Cunningham
09-22-2014, 10:34 AM
New thread: discuss it to your heart's content: Damage to Shotgun Magazine Tubes (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?13502-Damage-to-Shotgun-Magazine-Tubes)

BWT
09-22-2014, 10:48 AM
The way I see it. ARs are more controllable, accurate for the need for precision.

However 00 Buck consists of 9 .34" pellets penetrating to about 12-18 inches is almost equivalent to half a magazine of FMJ 9mm; it won't penetrate as deeply as a single FMJ but it is deep enough.

That's hard to argue with and as chuck stated (and video) displayed; they have a lot of one shot OIS with 12 GA.

I don't shoot shotguns a lot. But this has me reconsidering them.

DocGKR
09-22-2014, 11:07 AM
"In this county, virtually all home invasions are drug related; i.e. ripping a dealer for money/drugs, payback for same, or for non-payment for drugs. Since I'm not in that biz, I'm not all that worried about someone kicking in the door."

Not sure I buy off on that. A number of years ago, a physician who was also a Reserve Police Officer died while defending his family in a home invasion in the SF Bay Area--not drug related in any way and in fact was a crime of opportunity perpetrated by some bad guys who had delivered some furniture earlier and decided to come back for a robbery later. In the past year, two homes in affluent areas near here have had home invasions, one in daylight, one at night--neither family was involved in any illicit activity. There is also the Petit family tragedy...

czech6
09-22-2014, 11:19 AM
The only shotgun shells problems that we've had is from buffer leaking out a shells and clogging things up. That's related to department shotguns being loaded and unloaded 3 times a day, the shells not being replaced at regular intervals, and shotguns getting cleaned once a year.

Once upon a time Remington rifled slugs were authorized. In the few shootings that they were used in, they had an excellent track record. When "over penetration" became a big deal on the internet, "over penetration" became a big deal with the firearm "experts" at the head shed, and slugs went the way of the blackjack. There are plenty of gunfights that have gone from contact distance ordeals to running 50+ yard gunfights in a matter of seconds, and there's no time to mess around with switching out ammo. A shotgun with slugs is not a replacement for a rifle, but its still a good shotgun with a range advantage over buckshot.

Chuck Haggard
09-22-2014, 11:33 AM
Buffer getting into the guns is a real issue, I've seen that quite a bit. We let the ammo maker know about it and frankly quit using their ammo until they fix it.

The Vang magazine follower is IHMO the very best such part one can buy, and it's design allows debris, such as leaking buffer stuff, out of the gun instead of jamming up the works. That part I can HIGHLY recommend to increase tube magazine reliability of guns in adverse conditions.

Foster style slugs typically penetrate less than buckshot on people, fact. "Overpenetration" concerns are BS

czech6
09-22-2014, 11:48 AM
Foster style slugs typically penetrate less than buckshot on people, fact. "Overpenetration" concerns are BS

But when it comes down to verifiable facts, such as, demonstrations in ballistic gelatin and what some Lt read on the ar15.com, there will be no confusion about what is the more reliable source of information.

DocGKR
09-22-2014, 12:43 PM
As Chuck noted, many soft lead Foster slugs have less penetration than duty handgun rounds; this also can lead to poor penetration against intermediate barriers. I like the hard Brenneke slugs and Federal DP slugs (PB127 DPRS) since slugs are typically selected with the goal of successfully penetrating something--often times intermediate barriers or large dangerous animals. As a result, Foster type slugs are NOT generally the best option.

rob_s
09-22-2014, 12:43 PM
In this county, virtually all home invasions are drug related; i.e. ripping a dealer for money/drugs, payback for same, or for non-payment for drugs. Since I'm not in that biz, I'm not all that worried about someone kicking in the door.

This is actually true for most violent crime in general. The best way to keep from getting involved in a violent altercation is to avoid doing stupid things in stupid places with stupid people. manage to avoid all three and you can pretty much leave the guns at home in the safe.

However, a thread or a discussion like this pretty much presupposes that we've decided to ignore the fact that we're talking about an even so unlikely as to be statistically insignificant, and talk about what the best tool for the task might be.

I own an 870 myself. I recommend them to people all the time. As-mentioned, they are extremely versatile and I believe Remington even sells a version that comes with a short HD barrel and a longer sporting barrel. That's what I tell people to buy.

there is a difference between the general gun-buying public and the members of this forum, and that is primarily that everyone here is an enthusiast of some sort. That means that the majority of us are likely to have a shotgun, handgun, and semi-auto rifle taking up space int he safe. Which you decide to use, or stage, how in what order you stage them, may vary (I like Jody's bedroom safe idea).

Chuck Haggard
09-22-2014, 01:02 PM
As Chuck noted, many soft lead Foster slugs have less penetration than duty handgun rounds; this also can lead to poor penetration against intermediate barriers. I like the hard Brenneke slugs and Federal DP slugs (PB127 DPRS) since slugs are typically selected with the goal of successfully penetrating something--often times intermediate barriers or large dangerous animals. As a result, Foster type slugs are NOT generally the best option.


^This^ is why I often think the right slug is a better home defense option that many buckshot choices.

Jakus
09-22-2014, 01:12 PM
Shotgun Pros:

Shotgun Cons:


tend to be physically large
heavy recoil
low ammo capacity
more difficult to reload
good training less available
easy to short stroke a manual action
slower follow-up shots
autoloaders can be ammo finicky
can be difficult to add accessories
poor iron sights
close engagement range




Can we clarify "poor iron sights" in the context of home defense? I have no experience with any sighting options on shotguns other than bead sights (Mossberg) and fiber optic front sights (Benelli).

Considering the variability of ammo choices (birdshot, buckshot, slugs), what makes for the best sight/ammo combination?

INDOOR USE
Bead w/bird, buck, slug
Rifle style w/bird, buck, slug
Ghost Rings w/bird, buck, slug
Red dot w/bird, buck, slug

OUTDOOR USE
Bead w/bird, buck, slug
Rifle style w/bird, buck, slug
Ghost Rings w/bird, buck, slug
Red dot w/bird, buck, slug

I would think that the area you live in (urban/rural), and the threats you might encounter (4 legged, 2 legged, critters) could lead to very different sight/ammo combination being considered "right".

For the home defense shotgun loaded with buckshot are there distinct advantages to a more precise sight setup vs standard bead sights?

Tamara
09-22-2014, 01:29 PM
Not sure I buy off on that. A number of years ago, a physician who was also a Reserve Police Officer died while defending his family in a home invasion in the SF Bay Area--not drug related in any way and in fact was a crime of opportunity perpetrated by some bad guys who had delivered some furniture earlier and decided to come back for a robbery later. In the past year, two homes in affluent areas near here have had home invasions, one in daylight, one at night--neither family was involved in any illicit activity. There is also the Petit family tragedy...

There were some pretty nasty high-profile crime of opportunity-type (http://fox59.com/2013/12/02/home-invasion-suspect-to-victims-im-sorry-it-had-to-be-yall/) ones in the IND Metro area not too long back.

Jay Cunningham
09-22-2014, 01:39 PM
Can we clarify "poor iron sights" in the context of home defense? I have no experience with any sighting options on shotguns other than bead sights (Mossberg) and fiber optic front sights (Benelli).

I think if given the choice for a dedicated defensive application, most would choose something other than a bead sight - which is extremely common.

That's not to say that the bead sight doesn't work.

Glenn E. Meyer
09-22-2014, 01:45 PM
I have both a 1300 and an AR loaded with home defense ammo but the handguns are first as the former takes time to get to. Luckily the zombies are slow in TX.

Anyway, this week I took a vehicle combatives class with Dave Spaulding (great class) and we pounded one car with various rounds. A slug fired into the door should sail right through (of course) - some did if shot high. However, one shot into the lower door panel hit the side support beam and dove down into the door pocket. No penetration through the car. Interesting on how variable penetration was depending on nuances of crap inside the door. A Hornady 380 hit at the same placement as the slug and bounced off the door. Higher it went through.

Chuck Haggard
09-22-2014, 01:47 PM
For many uses I like bead sights, they are faster at closer range. I think GJM talked about this with his anti-bear 14" gun

GJM
09-22-2014, 01:48 PM
I have both a 1300 and an AR loaded with home defense ammo but the handguns are first as the former takes time to get to. Luckily the zombies are slow in TX.

Anyway, this week I took a vehicle combatives class with Dave Spaulding (great class) and we pounded one car with various rounds. A slug fired into the door should sail right through (of course) - some did if shot high. However, one shot into the lower door panel hit the side support beam and dove down into the door pocket. No penetration through the car. Interesting on how variable penetration was depending on nuances of crap inside the door. A Hornady 380 hit at the same placement as the slug and bounced off the door. Higher it went through.

Try a Brenneke.

On the bead issue, at least one of the forum SMEs prefers a bead.

Malamute
09-22-2014, 02:21 PM
The sights vs bead may be partly the way they are used. Perhaps some of being what one is used to using?

I havent had any formal training, there may be a better way. I've shot moving things with sights by just looking over them, "pointing" rather than aiming per se, about like using a shotgun bead. Have shot skeet with rifle sighted shotguns without grief, and many running small game with open and peep sighted rifles.

TR675
09-22-2014, 02:32 PM
I'm of the school of thought that in this type of situation - HD, that is - I want to be as accurate as possible so aiming rather than pointing is my plan. I put an Aimpoint on my 870 and "zeroed" it to the approximate center of Flite control buckshot patterns - it seems to help with quick, accurate aiming and I would imagine that it helps in lower light too. Both the Aimpoint and the 870 pedestal sight are leagues above the tiny bead sight on an old 1300 I've got lying around.

I'm a non-SME with shotguns so would like to hear from the experts on this.

Tamara
09-22-2014, 02:41 PM
Tagged for watching the sight/bead discussion evolve.

The smoothbore slug barrel on my 870 had the old skool Remington rifle sights which I like, but I replaced them with the Trijicon 3-dots (because I got a screaming deal on the Trij's, like, below wholesale.)
But then smart people pointed out (and my own eyes verified) that there was no way that one green glowy dot could be as bright as two green glowy dots that were a foot closer to my nose. I'm gonna Sharpie the rear dots, but may change back to the factory rear blade, with its shallow "V" and "Look Here, Stupid" white triangle.

John Hearne
09-22-2014, 02:46 PM
As best I can determine, the "best" shotgun sights vary from individual to individual. With that said, I have had the best general luck with the replacement, large blocky sights for the Remington 870 slug barrels. These sights are open and are identical to your pistol sights. For moving stuff, it is very easy to ignore the rear sight and get bead like performance. As soon as you need more accuracy, the rear sight allows as much accuracy as can be expected from any slug firing shotgun. Several companies make them but I've used the Trijicon option with great success.

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTgItVBBbWboZGghoJLr-ylj-RBnJJJ0L7kuFH7iAThIYt5M9SU

Malamute
09-22-2014, 02:49 PM
^ ^ Well said, thank you.

GJM
09-22-2014, 03:01 PM
I have shotguns set up with a T1, ghost ring, medium aperture, bead, John Hearne's sights and my latest arrangement of a pistol Trijicon HD front and low profile rear. The HD set-up is far and away my favorite.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/imagejpg5_zpsed9b9b14.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/imagejpg5_zpsed9b9b14.jpg.html)

Chuck Haggard
09-22-2014, 03:19 PM
The XS front beads work pretty good in my experience.

NH Shooter
09-22-2014, 05:18 PM
Tagged for watching the sight/bead discussion evolve.

The tale of my two 1187s;

http://www.canonshooter.com/photos2/1187s-1.jpg

The green FO bead is for me faster and plenty accurate with slugs out to 50 yards. Beyond that range the rifle sights of the 1187P come into their own in aiding accuracy.

http://www.canonshooter.com/photos2/1187-16.jpg


With an X300 mounted as shown, the FO bead is also illuminated and glows when there is no strong reflection of the light from a nearby surface, such as an indoor wall. In that case, it appears as a well-defined black bead against a bright target.

http://www.canonshooter.com/photos2/1187-14.jpg


I prefer the FO bead for fast, up-close work (say to about 35 yards) and the rifle sights for longer range slug work.

Wheeler
09-23-2014, 11:10 AM
I don't consider myself an SME by any stretch, certainly not in this group, so my opinions might not count for much. I've owned a shotgun since I was big enough to pick one up and hold the muzzle horizontal. I killed my first deer with a single shot 20 gauge and a rifled slug at 60 yards, using a bead sight. I've placed well enoughto get a trophy in every single sporting clays tournament I've participated in using a bead sight. The last two USPSA style shotgun matches I participated in I placed third in the pump action division getting beat by guys with longer tunes who play the game all the time, once again using a bead sight. Point being a bead can be very accurate if used properly with the correct mount for the gun.

I've tried shooting shotguns with various rifle sight and ghost ring configurations and found the combination to be less than intuitive and difficult to transition from target to target. That's a personal thing and I freely admit that. Any form of sights on most any gun is purely subjective, if a shooter prefers a certain setup and can hit what they're shooting at I say more power to them, regardless of their choice.

My go-to choice for Home Defense is a S&W 3000 with a TLR1-HL attached. I like the S&W over the more common and current shotguns, am very comfortable with shooting it, to include shooting it from the 'Assault Position' accurately to 12 yards to mitigate the 21" barrel. YMMV and probably does. :-)

Hambo
09-23-2014, 01:27 PM
Not sure I buy off on that.

That's handy, I'm not selling it. It's the way it is where I live.

At any rate, rob s's point is well taken. If I were going to use a long gun in my home: SBR with a can. I've shot enough unsuppressed shotguns and rifles in confined spaces with ear protection to know just how unpleasant it would be without ear pro.

DocGKR
09-23-2014, 01:54 PM
Hambo, I must apologize; I just re-read what you wrote. You in fact stated "county" and I misread it as "country". I appreciate that your comment is true for where you live. Sorry about the mix-up.

Tamara
09-23-2014, 02:14 PM
You can't be polite here! This is a web forum!


;)

So, back to the topic at hand, and while Doc is in the thread, I found yours and Chuck's comments above to be interesting.

I've got a bunch of Remington "Slugger" Foster-type slugs, since my gauge has a smoothbore barrel. Am I tracking right that these would be less likely to wind up in my neighbor's living room than plated 00B?

DocGKR
09-23-2014, 02:38 PM
If you hit the target and don't miss, that could possibly be accurate depending on the exact slug in question and velocity it was launched at...

Chuck Haggard
09-23-2014, 02:58 PM
The Remington Foster style slugs I have seen that had hit people were mushroomed out to over an 1" or fragmented into three pieces. All the above penetrated about what you'd expect from a service pistol launched JHP bullet. At least half of the OO buck pellets we have launched into bad guys have gone all the way through, likely well more than half.

Tamara
09-23-2014, 03:09 PM
The Remington Foster style slugs I have seen that had hit people were mushroomed out to over an 1" or fragmented into three pieces.

That's interesting, there. Shootin' Buddy was telling me about a homicide case where the decedent had taken a single .410 slug to the heart and the projectile had broken into three pieces. Huh.

Chuck Haggard
09-23-2014, 03:11 PM
The .410 "slug" weighs about as much as a .380 bullet, and runs like 1600fps, so I'd be shocked if it didn't break up.

Chuck Haggard
09-23-2014, 03:14 PM
Looks a lot like this in real life too, in my observation; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oDG2i6rwjU#t=80

Hambo
09-23-2014, 04:25 PM
Hambo, I must apologize; I just re-read what you wrote. You in fact stated "county" and I misread it as "country". I appreciate that your comment is true for where you live. Sorry about the mix-up.

No sweat, Doc. I wondered if that might be the case. If I lived a couple hours south I'd probably be singing a different tune.

GJM
09-23-2014, 04:38 PM
I am not sure how someone would use a bullet's supposed penetration or lack of penetration tactically. Why would an informed person want to shoot someone, where a pass through would certainly injure a person behind, regardless of the load?

Buddy of mine borrowed a .30-06 from me, for his son to use in Africa. His son shot a zebra, a notoriously tough target, using my .30-06 bolt with a hunting, not FMJ, load (most folks would call .30-06 OK to on the light side for a zebra). Bullet killed the zebra he was hunting, exited and killed the zebra behind his target. Back to shotguns, with buckshot, you have the possibility of over penetration, or a shot that misses the target and hits someone.

Tamara
09-23-2014, 04:52 PM
I am not sure how someone would use a bullet's supposed penetration or lack of penetration tactically. Why would an informed person want to shoot someone, where a pass through would certainly injure a person behind, regardless of the load?

Mah point, you are missing it.

I'm not worried about someone standing directly behind Joe Badguy, but not all of us live on Moosejaw Creek in Mukluk Borough; some of us have neighbors. If there's a round that has a good reputation for messing up a bad guy but seems somewhat less likely to cause me to need to pay for spackling holes in those neighbor's walls, I'm all ears. It's not my driving concern in ammo selection, but it is something I'm moderately interested in.

Up until now, I'd never really paid much attention to slugs as even a choice in an urban setting because somehow "slug" got itself permanently attached to teenaged memories of shooting holes in stuff with Brennekes; I hadn't stopped to think that maybe pumpkin balls don't go through stuff that way because I'd never really had reason to.

Anyhow, Your Mileage, of course, May Vary.

Chuck Haggard
09-23-2014, 05:12 PM
That is a job where I still like old school non plated buckshot.

Plain lead #1 or #4 buck gets through less building materials than pistol bullets and such.

NH Shooter
09-23-2014, 05:37 PM
http://le.atk.com/ammunition/federal/slug/details.aspx?id=706

The LE127 RS (1300 FPS, reduced recoil) penetrates as follows according to the link above;

bare gelatin - 14.25"
heavy clothing - 15.50"
wallboard - 19"

If you hit the bullet trap directly, it won't go any further. These loads shoot well out of my 1187s (the Brenneke for punching though hard stuff) and cover all the bases I'd want to cover with a home defense SG:

http://www.canonshooter.com/photos2/1187shells-1.jpg

Tamara
09-23-2014, 06:25 PM
That is a job where I still like old school non plated buckshot.

Plain lead #1 or #4 buck gets through less building materials than pistol bullets and such.

When I last actually kept a gauge for home defense, I had plain ol' unplated #4 buck in it because of... I can't really remember. Something about pattern density or something, probably.

Ironically, back then I lived on the second story of a lake house that was a lightly-framed-in box set atop a first floor that was a built-out log cabin. Sightlines in three of four directions from my second-floor dwelling could be measured to the nearest mile and mostly had trees as potential targets and the fourth direction was largely hillside. I could have used a Garand firing black-tip M2 for a housegun without much worry.

The apartment I lived in was a huge, open loft, a rectangular space probably 20 yards from end-to-end with the entrance door in one of the short ends, and my bedroom doorway in the opposite corner; a shot at someone forcing entry would have been a longish one for an indoors shot...

Anyway, back then is when I switched from the 870 to the AR.

I haven't done enough shotgun shooting in the intervening decade to make me switch back, but having played with the 870 I got for M3GI, I'd be lying if I said I hadn't considered it*. An added bonus would be the ease of being able to get shotgun practice in at the city pistol range or the in-town shooting club I belong to, as opposed to having to drive 30+ minutes to shoot 5.56...


*You and nyeti and LSP972 always waxing rhapsodic over the fowling piece for fool shootin' purposes is another component to that, I guess. ;)

JHC
09-23-2014, 06:43 PM
That is a job where I still like old school non plated buckshot.

Plain lead #1 or #4 buck gets through less building materials than pistol bullets and such.

Plain old unplated 00 buck will completely disintegrate to lead dust fired point blank into a cement wall. I kid you not. :eek:

Chuck Haggard
09-23-2014, 06:53 PM
^don't try this at home kids^

UNK
09-23-2014, 07:41 PM
I am assuming the foster slugs were lethal?

The Remington Foster style slugs I have seen that had hit people were mushroomed out to over an 1" or fragmented into three pieces. All the above penetrated about what you'd expect from a service pistol launched JHP bullet. At least half of the OO buck pellets we have launched into bad guys have gone all the way through, likely well more than half.

UNK
09-23-2014, 07:56 PM
Part of the original question was what does a shotgun bring to the equation that wouldn't be better served by a 5.56 and a .308 AR. The only thing I have seen so far that applies to me is that the SG using foster slugs is a one shot stop package without the danger of through and through penetration that harder slugs or 00 bring. So the next question is if I am going to shoot a slug why wouldn't I run a softer composition saboted slug in a slug barrel giving me the option of longer range shots.

Chuck Haggard
09-23-2014, 09:17 PM
Sabot slugs are smaller caliber, most tend to be .50 vs the .72 one gets from a Foster or other full bore sized slug. They also tend to penetrate more.

DocGKR
09-23-2014, 11:09 PM
I hate sabot slugs...

peterb
09-23-2014, 11:44 PM
Federal"s big book of shotshell performance: http://le.atk.com/resources/catalog/shotshell-databook/index.html

Lester Polfus
09-24-2014, 12:05 AM
I hate sabot slugs...

Hey Doc, could you expound on that a little? I don't intend to use them as a primary defensive tool, but I do have a hunting shotgun with a rifled barrel, and have always wondered about how sabot slugs perform.

Thanks.

DocGKR
09-24-2014, 01:09 AM
If I am shooting a 12 ga slug, I want the larger surface area and mass of a full caliber slug, not the smaller size and weaker construction of the typical sabot slug.

Chuck Haggard
09-24-2014, 05:37 AM
If you have to hunt with a shotgun the sabots are legit, they basically give you a muzzle loading rifle equivalent at distance, not a bad thing, but it's not a real rifle in reach or long range capability.

At shorter ranges full bore slugs give more smack on target IMHO, for want of a better term. People argue the differences between 9mm and .40 in service pistols all day long (which is stupid), I'll submit that the difference between a .50cal bullet and a .72 cal bullet at the same speed is actually significant.

Hambo
09-24-2014, 06:41 AM
Part of the original question was what does a shotgun bring to the equation that wouldn't be better served by a 5.56 and a .308 AR. The only thing I have seen so far that applies to me is that the SG using foster slugs is a one shot stop package without the danger of through and through penetration that harder slugs or 00 bring. So the next question is if I am going to shoot a slug why wouldn't I run a softer composition saboted slug in a slug barrel giving me the option of longer range shots.

What are you thinking as far as "long range" in home defense?

Lester Polfus
09-24-2014, 09:12 AM
If I am shooting a 12 ga slug, I want the larger surface area and mass of a full caliber slug, not the smaller size and weaker construction of the typical sabot slug.


If you have to hunt with a shotgun the sabots are legit, they basically give you a muzzle loading rifle equivalent at distance, not a bad thing, but it's not a real rifle in reach or long range capability.

At shorter ranges full bore slugs give more smack on target IMHO, for want of a better term. People argue the differences between 9mm and .40 in service pistols all day long (which is stupid), I'll submit that the difference between a .50cal bullet and a .72 cal bullet at the same speed is actually significant.

Thank you gentlemen.

UNK
09-24-2014, 09:22 AM
I have read but have no actual experience with internet statements that rifled slug barrels especially with scopes are good past 100 yards.

What are you thinking as far as "long range" in home defense?

Wheeler
09-24-2014, 10:01 AM
I have read but have no actual experience with internet statements that rifled slug barrels especially with scopes are good past 100 yards.

They are indeed. Are you planning to engage at those ranges?

Lester Polfus
09-24-2014, 10:13 AM
I have read but have no actual experience with internet statements that rifled slug barrels especially with scopes are good past 100 yards.

In a hunting context, this has some truthiness. Different gun/barrel/load/scope combinations will give you different results of course. If you can get 2 to 3 MOA out of a rifle shotgun barrel, you are doing pretty good. That, coupled with a pretty rainbow-like trajectory is a real limitation. With my Mossberg 500, equipped with a rifled slug barrel cut to 19" and a Burris 1.5 to 6 scope, I'd be comfortable on deer sized game out to 150 yards, under the right conditions.

There are, of course, enthusiasts who go really badoinkers over this stuff, and creat slug guns that are much more accurate.

From a defensive standpoint, while it's not entirely impossible that it might be reasonable and prudent at some point to take a shot at 100 yards or farther, it's not something I spend much time on.

GJM
09-24-2014, 10:14 AM
The main advantage of the shotgun is the variety of loads available (slug, buck, shot, less lethal). Once you go to a rifled barrel, you might as well just get a rifle, which is typically far better functioning as a rifle than a shotgun.

Lester Polfus
09-24-2014, 10:40 AM
The main advantage of the shotgun is the variety of loads available (slug, buck, shot, less lethal). Once you go to a rifled barrel, you might as well just get a rifle, which is typically far better functioning as a rifle than a shotgun.

This. Unless for some reason you are hunting an area that will allow shotgun slugs, but not center fire rifles. There's a particular logic to those rules that makes sense when fish and game officials are sitting around a conference table.

This whole defensive shotgun vs. semi-auto rifle thing is a discussion all gun related fora seem determined to have from time to time.

I think AR-15's are cool, and was heavily invested in a couple prior to the Great Divorce Gun Sell Off. No Ar-15's have made their way back into the inventory since then. I find that they occupy a very particular niche: they are a great long gun for shooting people. It isn't legal to hunt deer with a .223 in my state, so essentially I would be spending $1K dollars for a gun that would spend the vast majority in a safe, waiting for a situation where I need to use it to shoot somebody. I would also need to make the time to train with that particular platform, which would be unique among all my other guns.

My Mossberg shotguns can be used to hunt rabbits, doves, bandtails, grouse, Black Bear, deer, and Elk, by varying which barrel I screw onto it, and the load. They also make excellent home defense tools. So these guns are earning their keep, by getting used on a regular basis. I shoot these guns a fair amount so my gun handling skills with them stay pretty sharp.

So far I've resisted the temptation to pick up another AR-15, despite how freakin' cool they are. For the whole shotgun vs AR thing to matter I would have to 1) Get in a shooting 2) get in a shooting where I have an opportunity to deploy a long gun and 3) get in a shooting, with a long gun, where the advantages of the AR-15 over a shotgun are a deciding factor in the outcome of the fight.

UNK
09-24-2014, 11:20 AM
delete post

UNK
09-24-2014, 11:21 AM
Thats pretty much the conclusion I had reached before I asked. I was just looking for confirmation.

The main advantage of the shotgun is the variety of loads available (slug, buck, shot, less lethal). Once you go to a rifled barrel, you might as well just get a rifle, which is typically far better functioning as a rifle than a shotgun.

ssb
09-24-2014, 11:32 AM
That is a job where I still like old school non plated buckshot.

Plain lead #1 or #4 buck gets through less building materials than pistol bullets and such.

An ND that I was unfortunate enough to witness up close yielded those same (surprising to me) results.

Load was a 2 3/4" Winchester no. 1 buck (16 pellet, lead -- same stuff I use). The shot entered an apartment wall which faced outside to the porch. Distance was about 3 yards. There is wood siding on the outside of that wall, which the load penetrated. Most of the pellets embedded themselves about a quarter of an inch into the siding on the opposite wall of the porch, approx. 4 yards away. Unfortunately, some pellets were unaccounted for. We legitimately have no idea where they went, and didn't find them when patching the holes. They didn't appear to end up in the parking lot/strike any cars, or any people.

The shotgun going off indoors was also much less loud than I expected.

UNK
09-24-2014, 11:34 AM
I've always taken it for granted that a shotgun was a necessary part of a home defense plan. However doing research online I began to question the necessity of having a home defense shotgun. Dollar for dollar spent, when comparing an Autoloader Shotgun to an AR it seemed I would be better served with an AR. I plan on not engaging at any range the same as I plan on not having to use home or car insurance.
They are indeed. Are you planning to engage at those ranges?

LSP972
09-24-2014, 12:38 PM
I suppose it all depends on what you consider your most likely threat to be.

If you're worried about a pitchfork-and-torch-bearing lynch mob at your gates, then a rifle/carbine would certainly be indicated.

What seems most likely for me is a home invasion; and for that you want something that can put DOWN multiple amped-up subjects... right NOW.

The "something" best able to do that job, while minimizing over-penetration/danger to the neighbors, is the gauge.

IMO, of course.

.

Wheeler
09-24-2014, 12:45 PM
I've always taken it for granted that a shotgun was a necessary part of a home defense plan. However doing research online I began to question the necessity of having a home defense shotgun. Dollar for dollar spent, when comparing an Autoloader Shotgun to an AR it seemed I would be better served with an AR. I plan on not engaging at any range the same as I plan on not having to use home or car insurance.

Then it appears you've answered your own question. In all practicality both platforms are quite effective. It really boils down to what you can use best under stress and what suits your particular needs/wants. I'd personally reach past my AR to pick up a shotgun or a lever action.
If I'm engaging at 100+ yards then it's not a home invasion.

SJC3081
09-24-2014, 12:52 PM
Then it appears you've answered your own question. In all practicality both platforms are quite effective. It really boils down to what you can use best under stress and what suits your particular needs/wants. I'd personally reach past my AR to pick up a shotgun or a lever action.
If I'm engaging at 100+ yards then it's not a home invasion.
Are you really going to choose a lever gun over a M4 cabine in a home invasion. Also if you are engaging at 100 yards plus maybe you are engaging a home invasion on your terms and not the invaders terms.

Tamara
09-24-2014, 12:54 PM
The main advantage of the shotgun is the variety of loads available (slug, buck, shot, less lethal). Once you go to a rifled barrel, you might as well just get a rifle, which is typically far better functioning as a rifle than a shotgun.

^Absolutely this.

The rifled shotgun barrel is an aberrant abomination that is a creation of weird hunting laws.

(...and I'm sorry if my earlier post to you sounded snippy, GJM; you know I'm just jealous I don't live on Moosejaw Creek. ;) )

TGS
09-24-2014, 12:58 PM
^Absolutely this.

The rifled shotgun barrel is an aberrant abomination that is a creation of weird hunting laws.


Yup.

They're extremely popular here for whitetail since centerfires are verboten for harvesting game. I always preferred a good .50"-.54" muzzle loader, myself. They're also fairly popular here.....not sure if it's as prevalent in other states.

Tamara
09-24-2014, 01:02 PM
This. Unless for some reason you are hunting an area that will allow shotgun slugs, but not center fire rifles. There's a particular logic to those rules that makes sense when fish and game officials are sitting around a conference table.

Can't speak to other states, but in Indiana it's because whitetail deer were actually hunted to extinction and then reintroduced. It wasn't til the population was reestablished that hunting was allowed again, but under pretty strict limits that basically amounted to hunting with one hand tied behind your back. Of course, people are ingenious and now you could use a laser-sighted compound bow for archery season, a scoped 209X50 Encore for muzzleloader, and a scoped rifled-barrel slug gun or a rifle caliber Encore pistol or an AR carbine in .450 Bushmaster (which is a 'pistol cartridge' for hunting purposes by the letter of the law here) and not miss your .30-30 too badly.

Lester Polfus
09-24-2014, 01:11 PM
Can't speak to other states, but in Indiana it's because whitetail deer were actually hunted to extinction and then reintroduced. It wasn't til the population was reestablished that hunting was allowed again, but under pretty strict limits that basically amounted to hunting with one hand tied behind your back. Of course, people are ingenious and now you could use a laser-sighted compound bow for archery season, a scoped 209X50 Encore for muzzleloader, and a scoped rifled-barrel slug gun or a rifle caliber Encore pistol or an AR carbine in .450 Bushmaster (which is a 'pistol cartridge' for hunting purposes by the letter of the law here) and not miss your .30-30 too badly.

Here in Washington, we have a few Game Managment Units that are outside of city limits, but still fairly"settled" and centerfire rifles are restricted, but shotgun slugs and muzzleloaders are allowed, as they are perceived as being "safer" in that setting, which is kinda, sorta, technically true.

It does lead to some strange circumstance where a sabot shotgun slug, or muzzleoader, which have ballistics similar to a .45-70 are legal, but an actual .45-70 isn't. Likewise, we don't have an exemption for long gun firing pistol cartridges, so a .44 Mag lever gun is right out.

Tamara
09-24-2014, 01:34 PM
The range thing with rifles has become Accepted Lore here now, for some reason.

"Oh, we can't have rifles because Indiana's flat! Rifle bullets would go to the next county and hit an orphanage full of nuns!" And you point out to them that it's perfectly legal to hunt coyote or squirrel here with a 7mm Rem Mag and do they think those bullets turn into pixie dust after you shoot them? But to no avail; their hearts are set and any argument you make or fact you point out just makes 'em dig in further. :(


(And "Indiana's flat"? I knew guys who hunted deer in south Georgia, where you could watch your dog run away for three days, and they used crazy fast necked-down wildcats where the bullet probably would have continued to go straight until it entered low earth orbit if they'd missed the deer. :eek: )

Chuck Haggard
09-24-2014, 01:40 PM
This. Unless for some reason you are hunting an area that will allow shotgun slugs, but not center fire rifles. There's a particular logic to those rules that makes sense when fish and game officials are sitting around a conference table.

This whole defensive shotgun vs. semi-auto rifle thing is a discussion all gun related fora seem determined to have from time to time.

I think AR-15's are cool, and was heavily invested in a couple prior to the Great Divorce Gun Sell Off. No Ar-15's have made their way back into the inventory since then. I find that they occupy a very particular niche: they are a great long gun for shooting people. It isn't legal to hunt deer with a .223 in my state, so essentially I would be spending $1K dollars for a gun that would spend the vast majority in a safe, waiting for a situation where I need to use it to shoot somebody. I would also need to make the time to train with that particular platform, which would be unique among all my other guns.

My Mossberg shotguns can be used to hunt rabbits, doves, bandtails, grouse, Black Bear, deer, and Elk, by varying which barrel I screw onto it, and the load. They also make excellent home defense tools. So these guns are earning their keep, by getting used on a regular basis. I shoot these guns a fair amount so my gun handling skills with them stay pretty sharp.

So far I've resisted the temptation to pick up another AR-15, despite how freakin' cool they are. For the whole shotgun vs AR thing to matter I would have to 1) Get in a shooting 2) get in a shooting where I have an opportunity to deploy a long gun and 3) get in a shooting, with a long gun, where the advantages of the AR-15 over a shotgun are a deciding factor in the outcome of the fight.


^This^ is exactly the sort of situation where I think not buying an AR makes sense, and where a shotgun makes perfect sense

Wheeler
09-24-2014, 02:43 PM
Are you really going to choose a lever gun over a M4 cabine in a home invasion. Also if you are engaging at 100 yards plus maybe you are engaging a home invasion on your terms and not the invaders terms.

Absolutely.
If they are 100 yards away it's not a home invasion unless your home is the size of a department store.

Tamara
09-24-2014, 02:50 PM
Unless the night is lit by burning cop cars, people a hundred yards away from me are the po-po's problem, not mine.

UNK
09-24-2014, 03:08 PM
Posted early on. "Im primarily concerned about home defense, SHTF, civil unrest scenario. I can hunt just about anything with a .22."
Some of this is just jonesin for a beretta tactical shotgun. The more I read about them the more I want one. Not need...want. But reality strikes...I have an 870 that works great. The next two purchases will probably be an AR 5.56 and a VP9. But it also occured to me If I ran just slugs..got a rifled barrel..I'm defended from up close to out past a hundred yards... I could just add a .308 and have a well balanced arsenal. I already have two .22 pistols and two .22 rifles.

What are you thinking as far as "long range" in home defense?

Lester Polfus
09-24-2014, 03:23 PM
Unless the night is lit by burning cop cars, people a hundred yards away from me are the po-po's problem, not mine.

I do appreciate your turns of phrase.

I, for the most part, agree. I'm no GJM, but I live on 5 acres in a very rural area. I'm 16 miles from the closest Star Bucks, and you can fire a rifle in three directions on my property and hit either generic woods, or genuine National Forest. There's little doubt that the first Deputy that responds to my place will wait at the bottom of my fatal funnel of a driveway and wait for lots, and lots of help to arrive if it really hits the fan around here.

Even given all that, when I consider long range engagements, I'm starting to get out of the "self defense scenarios that are likely to happen" place and into the "post apocalyptic fantasy scenario place." For one thing, given the terrain, you can't really SEE that far here, much less discern identity and hostile intent.

Lester Polfus
09-24-2014, 03:28 PM
Posted early on. "Im primarily concerned about home defense, SHTF, civil unrest scenario. I can hunt just about anything with a .22."
Some of this is just jonesin for a beretta tactical shotgun. The more I read about them the more I want one. Not need...want. But reality strikes...I have an 870 that works great. The next two purchases will probably be an AR 5.56 and a VP9. But it also occured to me If I ran just slugs..got a rifled barrel..I'm defended from up close to out past a hundred yards... I could just add a .308 and have a well balanced arsenal. I already have two .22 pistols and two .22 rifles.

Personally, if I already had an 870 that ran great, I would eschew the tactical shotgun, the slug barrel for the 870, and the AR-15 and just go straight to buying a .308.

On the other hand, none of the rest of that is a wrong answer. There is more than one way to do this.

Chuck Haggard
09-24-2014, 04:16 PM
Was looking for something else when I found this blast from the past, one article is ref combat use of shotguns;

http://www.gunbooks.ca/ar/1964/ar1164.pdf

UNK
09-24-2014, 05:54 PM
That has got to be the purtiest HD SG I have ever seen.


A carbine is hard to beat and if you already have one, so buying a SG for strictly HD may not need to be a priority.

That said, there is an interesting thread on M4C about the "political correctness" of a traditional shotgun, how one stood in a corner may not even get a second look by a non-enthusiast where an "assault rifle" would. In terms of effectiveness, there's no arguing that a hit with 00 buck at indoor HD ranges will stop the assailant as quickly as anything.

In my perhaps naïve POV on home defense, I don't plan on actively engaging a squad of hit men outside of my home in an extensive fire fight, or actively searching for them room-by-room inside my home. My plan is to take up the most easily defended position that will force them into a narrow "corridor of flying lead" if they decide to press the assault, and to call for help to local good guys in blue. In this scenario, a reliable SG is going to serve well.

As an aside, I had an old Remington 1187 Premier sitting in my safe unused for a long time. I decided to turn it into a HD project gun and it turned out really well. Shortened on both ends and lightly accessorized, it runs Federal LE loads perfectly and is amazingly maneuverable and fun to shoot. FWIW, it's positioned in front of my carbine in the event of a HD emergency.

http://www.canonshooter.com/photos2/1187-17.jpg


http://www.canonshooter.com/photos2/1187-16.jpg


http://www.canonshooter.com/photos2/1187-14.jpg


http://www.canonshooter.com/photos2/1187shells-1.jpg

NH Shooter
09-24-2014, 05:57 PM
Thanks Brian. I actually shoot it, too. ;-)

BTW, what barrel do you have for your 870?

UNK
09-24-2014, 06:26 PM
The barrel that came on it. Its from a lot of Police trade in's that a LGS picked up. It's got the plain barrel with bead. I've had it for 20+ years.


Thanks Brian. I actually shoot it, too. ;-)

BTW, what barrel do you have for your 870?

NH Shooter
09-24-2014, 06:39 PM
If it's an 870P, you have a great SG. Plenty of excellent aftermarket accessories for the 870 worth checking out if you're going to designate it as your HD long gun.

FWIW, I've had an AR for decades. After many different uppers, stocks, optics, iron sights, etc. and a ton of money, I have it where I want it but I just don't shoot it very much anymore. It sits in the back of the safe just in case a horde of zombies attack. My .22 LR and .308 bolt guns see far more use, as do my 1187s.

UNK
09-24-2014, 06:46 PM
I noticed the choke. Is that screw in? What type of shooting do you do and what is your barrel length.

If it's an 870P, you have a great SG. Plenty of excellent aftermarket accessories for the 870 worth checking out if you're going to designate it as your HD long gun.

FWIW, I've had an AR for decades. After many different uppers, stocks, optics, iron sights, etc. and a ton of money, I have it where I want it but I just don't shoot it very much anymore. It sits in the back of the safe just in case a horde of zombies attack. My .22 LR and .308 bolt guns see far more use, as do my 1187s.

GJM
09-25-2014, 12:26 AM
Commenting since we have this thread. A big cow moose has been hanging around the house this evening, as darkness fell. I tried to shoo her away, as we had stuff to do, but she wasn't budging from eating the remnants of our fireweed. Since it is getting towards bed time, needed to let the dog out. I got pretty much whatever I want available, but I grabbed my 870 with Brenneke slugs and the Surefire fore end to escort her out.

That shotgun has aperture sights and a generation or two old SF fore end, with +/- 125 lumens. Of course I took some sight pictures around the yard, and I don't care for aperture sights in low light. Additionally, 500 lumens would be mo better outside in the dark. Would rather have my Trijicon HD sight arrangement and at least an X300U for low light.

Drang
09-25-2014, 03:57 AM
If I may be so bold as to risk a slight diversion (on the Internet? Say it ain't so!), do any manufacturers sell a 20 gage outfitted for the home defense/tactical role?
Maybe it's just a devotion to Tradition!, but I would like to equip Mrs. Drang with a scattergun. It'd probably be cheaper than the AR she wants me to build her. (Dura-coated lavender. Or was it teal? I forget...)

UNK
09-25-2014, 05:26 AM
One of the thoughts that has been is expressed is shorter is better. Semi auto "Tacticools" run about a grand or better except for the Mossberg. There is also the Rem1100 tactical which runs aprox 600.. Another thing that has been questioned is current QC at freedom group companies which I believe includes Remington and Mossberg. Beretta is getting top billing. Not sure of the gauges......but there has been a post already with pics....I'd take this any day over a tacticool...I've seen a bunch of 1100's online for less than 500 and plenty of 20 guages.....The 500 hundred dollar ones are in perfect condition...slight pitting runs about 350. However when I searched locally I found 1100's in 12 gauge in very good condition for 350.00. http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?13486-Why-a-shotgun



If I may be so bold as to risk a slight diversion (on the Internet? Say it ain't so!), do any manufacturers sell a 20 gage outfitted for the home defense/tactical role?
Maybe it's just a devotion to Tradition!, but I would like to equip Mrs. Drang with a scattergun. It'd probably be cheaper than the AR she wants me to build her. (Dura-coated lavender. Or was it teal? I forget...)

Jay Cunningham
09-25-2014, 05:37 AM
Rob Haught used a 14" 870 in a class I took.

NH Shooter
09-25-2014, 05:45 AM
I noticed the choke. Is that screw in? What type of shooting do you do and what is your barrel length.

The 1187 was originally purchased for informal clay pigeon busting. The barrel came from the factory as 26" with Remchokes and their gas-compensation system, which is essentially a kind of relief valve mechanism built into the barrel that allows the use of 3" magnum loads in a barrel with ports large enough to cycle lighter target/small game loads. Only select 1187 barrels come with the comp system, and none of the shorter barrels do. The shorter LE/slug barrels have smaller gas ports with no pressure comp system, requiring the use of full power loads to reliably cycle the action.

I had the 26" barrel cut to 18-3/4" and the Remchokes reinstalled and have an improved cylinder choke installed. The barrel still allows the action to cycle with loads lighter than a slug barrel due to its larger ports and I can still use 3" magnums (which I do not use) as the excess pressure from the large ports is bled off through the pressure comp system in the barrel. I also had the stock shortened by about 1" to a 13" LOP, which fits me better and makes the SG all the more maneuverable and fast-on-target.

The SG is mega-fun to shoot with the Fed LE loads - the recoil is more of a soft push as opposed to a sharp jab, making follow-up shots quick and comfortable. The Brenneke field magnum loads makes it snap back a little more, though. ;-)

UNK
09-25-2014, 05:48 AM
How visible is the FO at night when the flashlight is on?

The 1187 was originally purchased for informal clay pigeon busting. The barrel came from the factory as 26" with Remchokes and their gas-compensation system, which is essentially a kind of relief valve mechanism built into the barrel that allows the use of 3" magnum loads in a barrel with ports large enough to cycle lighter target/small game loads. Only select 1187 barrels come with the comp system, and none of the shorter barrels do. The shorter LE/slug barrels have smaller gas ports with no pressure comp system, requiring the use of full power loads to reliably cycle the action.

I had the 26" barrel cut to 18-3/4" and the Remchokes reinstalled and have an improved cylinder choke installed. The barrel still allows the action to cycle with loads lighter than a slug barrel and can still use 3" magnums (which I do not use). I also had the stock shortened by about 1" to a 13" LOP, which fits me better and makes the SG all the more maneuverable and fast-on-target.

NH Shooter
09-25-2014, 05:52 AM
How visible is the FO at night when the flashlight is on?

Very! It's like a green Aimpoint. :-)

The FO bead glows nicely outdoors when there is no reflected light coming back into my eyes. Indoors, the bead still appears as a black solid against a brightly lit target.

UNK
09-25-2014, 06:00 AM
How many rounds does it hold?

Very! It's like a green Aimpoint. :-)

The FO bead glows nicely outdoors when there is no reflected light coming back into my eyes. Indoors, the bead still appears as a black solid against a brightly lit target.

John Hearne
09-25-2014, 09:26 AM
Semi auto "Tacticools" run about a grand or better except for the Mossberg. There is also the Rem1100 tactical which runs aprox 600.. Another thing that has been questioned is current QC at freedom group companies which I believe includes Remington and Mossberg.

I'd have to dig for the link but there was a guy who was making 20 gauge Remington 1100's that were setup primarily for small stature folks with a defensive orientation. The details were on one of the Masaad Ayoob Podcasts. The shotgun setup looked "optimal" but was over $1000.

Glenn E. Meyer
09-25-2014, 09:50 AM
There were/are 20 gauge Winchester 1300's around in their self-defense configuration. Nice smaller gun in a pump. My 12 gauge 1300 with a fiber optic has been fine in a couple of shotgun classes (last was Givens). However, both convince me that while I can handle the gun, when the zombies mass - I go to the AR.

Tom Givens
09-25-2014, 10:34 AM
I'm not a fan of the 20 gauge with buckshot. The only readily available load is #3 buck, which is a bit light and may not penetrate enough. It also tends to pattern horribly.

Most folks wind up going to 3" 20 gauge shells to get a decent payload. They recoil as much or more than low recoil 12 ga rounds. I'd stick with 12 ga and low recoil, and a shortened stock. Even small people can handle these just fine.

Chuck Whitlock
09-25-2014, 10:41 AM
If I may be so bold as to risk a slight diversion (on the Internet? Say it ain't so!), do any manufacturers sell a 20 gage outfitted for the home defense/tactical role?
Maybe it's just a devotion to Tradition!, but I would like to equip Mrs. Drang with a scattergun. It'd probably be cheaper than the AR she wants me to build her. (Dura-coated lavender. Or was it teal? I forget...)

I got my wife a Mossberg 510 in 20 ga:

http://www.mossberg.com/search/node/510

It has an 18.5" barrel and only holds 3 rounds in the tube, but is very small and light and handy. The way the forend attaches, I am under no illusions that it is a "hard use" gun, but she likes it. It is currently sporting a magnetic green FO front sight on the rib (picked up from the local Scheels to try out) and a Streamlight Polytac LED light in an elzetta mount. Haven't really run it much in that configuration yet, but it is on the to-do list.


Other pumps:

http://www.mossberg.com/search/node/20%20ga


Semi-autos:

http://www.mossberg.com/products/shotguns/autoloading/mossberg-international-sa-20

GJM
09-25-2014, 10:53 AM
I'm not a fan of the 20 gauge with buckshot. The only readily available load is #3 buck, which is a bit light and may not penetrate enough. It also tends to pattern horribly.

Most folks wind up going to 3" 20 gauge shells to get a decent payload. They recoil as much or more than low recoil 12 ga rounds. I'd stick with 12 ga and low recoil, and a shortened stock. Even small people can handle these just fine.

Conversely, I am now a big fan of the 20 gauge as a Brenneke slug launcher, in the form of a Benelli M2. It recoils noticeably less than the 12 gauge, while also being a lightweight, great handling piece that is easier to shoot one hand or by a small stature person. I don't think any person or animal in North America will notice the difference between a 12 and 20 gauge Brenneke.

Chuck Whitlock
09-25-2014, 11:01 AM
I'm not a fan of the 20 gauge with buckshot. The only readily available load is #3 buck, which is a bit light and may not penetrate enough. It also tends to pattern horribly.

Most folks wind up going to 3" 20 gauge shells to get a decent payload. They recoil as much or more than low recoil 12 ga rounds. I'd stick with 12 ga and low recoil, and a shortened stock. Even small people can handle these just fine.

Tom,

What about #1B in 20 guage?:

http://www.sgammo.com/product/20-gauge/25-rd-box-20-gauge-rio-9-pellet-buck-shot-ammo

Spec's from Rio's website:

http://www.rioammo.com/rio_buckshot.html

Tom Givens
09-25-2014, 11:26 AM
Sotex-

In theory the Rio #1 buck load would be good, but I would have to pattern some.

GJM- Agreed on the 20ga Brenneke. A .60 caliber bullet is serious stuff.

Tamara
09-25-2014, 02:16 PM
If I may be so bold as to risk a slight diversion (on the Internet? Say it ain't so!), do any manufacturers sell a 20 gage outfitted for the home defense/tactical role?
Maybe it's just a devotion to Tradition!, but I would like to equip Mrs. Drang with a scattergun. It'd probably be cheaper than the AR she wants me to build her. (Dura-coated lavender. Or was it teal? I forget...)

Just mentioned your name an hour or so ago, when I was standing in Premier Arms and coonfingering a little 20ga 870 complete with factory mag tube extension and sling swivels. Those youth guns, with the shorter LOP and smaller, lighter receivers just handle so schweetly...

NH Shooter
09-25-2014, 04:53 PM
How many rounds does it hold?

6 + 1 with the extension, 4 + 1 without.

JAD
09-25-2014, 05:04 PM
Rob Haught used a 14" 870 in a class I took.
'Haught' rhymes with 'haute,' as in 'haute cuisine,' not 'ought,' as in 'one ought to take that class before complaining about shotgun recoil.'

Tom Givens
09-25-2014, 11:00 PM
I ordered some of the 20 ga #1 buck we discussed earlier. I'll pattern it and report the results.

LHS
09-25-2014, 11:56 PM
If I may be so bold as to risk a slight diversion (on the Internet? Say it ain't so!), do any manufacturers sell a 20 gage outfitted for the home defense/tactical role?
Maybe it's just a devotion to Tradition!, but I would like to equip Mrs. Drang with a scattergun. It'd probably be cheaper than the AR she wants me to build her. (Dura-coated lavender. Or was it teal? I forget...)

Wilson Combat worked on 20 gauges for a while, not sure if they still do. I have one that they did probably 13 or 14 years ago, built on my old childhood 870 Express squirrel gun. It's light as hell, handles like a dream (even with a 20" barrel and 3-round tube extension), and is a wonderful gun. My biggest issue has been finding good 20 gauge defensive ammo. None of the major ammo makers produces anything heavier than #3 buck, and that's only in 3" mags, which kind of defeats the purpose. If Federal came out with a #1 Buck FC load in 20 gauge, I'd be hopping around for joy.

Haraise
09-26-2014, 12:53 AM
Might have missed this, but...

Why a shotgun? Because I'm forced to take some obsolete single round loading tube fed antique to the two gun match here. :P

idahojess
09-26-2014, 01:00 AM
.. Another thing that has been questioned is current QC at freedom group companies which I believe includes Remington and Mossberg. ......[/url]

Mossberg is still family owned, I think. And rapidly moving out of Connecticut.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/frankminiter/2014/07/11/americas-largest-shotgun-maker-shifts-more-jobs-to-texas/

DiscipulusArmorum
09-26-2014, 02:25 AM
IIRC Chuck had mentioned a growing trend of groups using body armor and cover tactics in home invasions.

Anyone with knowledge on the matter of criminal trends find this to be a relevant concern? I hear this mentioned frequently in theoretical discussions of the shotgun vs the rifle, but I'm curious as to whether or not there are really body armor wearing home invaders out there.

Tamara
09-26-2014, 05:13 AM
Might have missed this, but...

Why a shotgun? Because I'm forced to take some obsolete single round loading tube fed antique to the two gun match here. :P

Nonsense; you could bring a malfunctioning box mag fed abortion and shoot open. :p

Chuck Haggard
09-26-2014, 08:59 AM
Anyone with knowledge on the matter of criminal trends find this to be a relevant concern? I hear this mentioned frequently in theoretical discussions of the shotgun vs the rifle, but I'm curious as to whether or not there are really body armor wearing home invaders out there.

We routinely find vests when we do warrants locally, but they are found in the closet and such.

I know of three cases here in the past 28 years where we had bad guys wearing armor, one was a home invasion by a suspect wearing a stolen IIIa LE vest and carrying a pistol grip shotgun.

Chuck Whitlock
09-26-2014, 11:06 AM
In theory the Rio #1 buck load would be good, but I would have to pattern some.

GJM- Agreed on the 20ga Brenneke. A .60 caliber bullet is serious stuff.


I ordered some of the 20 ga #1 buck we discussed earlier. I'll pattern it and report the results.

Thanks for the feedback. Looking forward to your results.

Haraise
09-26-2014, 12:34 PM
Nonsense; you could bring a malfunctioning box mag fed abortion and shoot open. :p

The Rhino 12g AR10 just got delayed for... 9 months. :|

LHS
09-26-2014, 12:39 PM
'Haught' rhymes with 'haute,' as in 'haute cuisine,' not 'ought,' as in 'one ought to take that class before complaining about shotgun recoil.'

Actually, it's pronounced the same as "hot".

I'm tempted to get some of that Rio buck as well. Maybe pattern some at the class in Nov...

JAD
09-26-2014, 12:42 PM
Actually, it's pronounced the same as "hot".

I'm tempted to get some of that Rio buck as well. Maybe pattern some at the class in Nov...

I know, poetic license and I've slept since then :)

LHS
09-26-2014, 12:46 PM
I know, poetic license and I've slept since then :)

:)

You're given me an idea now.

"It rhymes with double-ought"

UNK
09-28-2014, 07:43 AM
Is that at one target or multiples ?

btw: steel USPSA silhouette at 10 yards, #6 high brass (kicks as hard as Fed #00), Beretta 1301 Tactical = 8 rounds on target in <3 seconds from low ready.

JodyH
09-28-2014, 07:48 AM
Is that at one target or multiples ?
One target.
A shotgun "Bill Drill" of sorts.

David S.
10-05-2014, 11:26 AM
Because a suppressed SBR was brought up earlier in this thread as being ideal for many in an urban/suburban environment. As a datapoint, what are the approximate noise levels (DBA) of, say, a 18" shotgun, 16" AR (.556), and 12" AR (or whatever the recommended setup is) with a suppressor?

I understand that noise/concussion level will vary with model of suppressor, so maybe an approximate range for the commonly available models.

ASH556
10-17-2014, 11:42 AM
I'm not an SME and I may be totally out in left field here, but here are my thoughts:

I like a pistol for investigating the "bump in the night" kinds of things. As has been mentioned elsewhere in the thread, it's much easier to conceal when answering the door (if it's the cops, neighbors, etc knocking). My personal nightstand pistol is a Glock 17, AAC Evo-9 suppressor, Surefire X400/DG switch, 17 rounds of 147 HST. This is also the firearm with which my wife is most comfortable (she's not opposed to guns, but has no real interest in training) and I view the laser as a "this is about where the bullet is going to go" indicator for someone like her who doesn't train enough for sights to be a reality at speed/in the dark. She simply has to pick up the gun and the light and laser are automatically turned on with the DG switch.

http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab104/ASH556/97F83886-978D-4457-9C7C-9760DD6AC556.jpg

Standing up next to the nightstand is a Benelli M1S90, 12ga, 18.5" cylinder barrel w/rifle sights. It wears a Surefire forend, holds 7 rounds in the tube, one ghost loaded on the carrier, and one in the chamber. These are all Fed LE1321B with another 7 rounds of the same on a velcro side saddle. The two rounds on the right sight forward of the ejection port are Fed Deep Penetrator slugs. If we awaken to indicators of impending violence, this is my primary weapon to secure the hallway long enough for my wife to retrieve our son and retreat into the bedroom with him and the pistol. I still have a hard time getting over the fact that with one pull of the trigger I've effectively dumped the magazine of a Glock 19 into my target (and it easily maintains fist-sized groups inside of 25yds...pic below was 25yds). Not only is a single round very effective, but I've got nine of them before I need to reload. If for whatever reason the fight moves outside and I need to disable a vehicle (maybe they kidnapped my son, who knows) a quick slug changeover should do the job. I have plenty of confidence in the reliability of this M1 through using it (with a different barrel) to shoot sporting clays and (in this barrel/mag configuration) to shoot 3-gun.

http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab104/ASH556/20130824_201119.jpg
http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab104/ASH556/IMG_7131.jpg
http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab104/ASH556/IMG_7132.jpg

If there's some sort of civil unrest or if I just get a bad feeling, I swap out the shotgun for a suppressed 10.3" SBR AR15 with an AAC M4-2000. The rifle's magazine is loaded with 28 rounds of 55gr 5.56 Gold Dot. It wears an Aimpoint T-1 that stays turned on and a Surefire X300 Ultra. This is the more capable gun all-around, and if I knew I was going to get into a gunfight, this is the one I would want to be holding. As great as it is, I still feel that the single round wounding capabilities of the Benelli are better for a purely in-the-home scenario.
http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab104/ASH556/IMG_6600.jpg

As far as armored enemies, (assuming that despite incredibly low odds, it has happened to me) it seems that the force of energy from the 12GA buckshot round delivered COM would perhaps pause his fight long enough for me to deliver a second round to his non-armored noggin. Especially since I'm shooting an auto and follow-up shots are quite fast.

Thoughts?

NH Shooter
10-19-2014, 07:45 AM
Thoughts?

Don't mess with ASH556! ;-)

I concur with your need-based selections and make the same ones myself.

Wheeler
10-19-2014, 08:16 AM
I'm not an SME and I may be totally out in left field here, but here are my thoughts:

I like a pistol for investigating the "bump in the night" kinds of things. As has been mentioned elsewhere in the thread, it's much easier to conceal when answering the door (if it's the cops, neighbors, etc knocking). My personal nightstand pistol is a Glock 17, AAC Evo-9 suppressor, Surefire X400/DG switch, 17 rounds of 147 HST. This is also the firearm with which my wife is most comfortable (she's not opposed to guns, but has no real interest in training) and I view the laser as a "this is about where the bullet is going to go" indicator for someone like her who doesn't train enough for sights to be a reality at speed/in the dark. She simply has to pick up the gun and the light and laser are automatically turned on with the DG switch.

http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab104/ASH556/97F83886-978D-4457-9C7C-9760DD6AC556.jpg

Standing up next to the nightstand is a Benelli M1S90, 12ga, 18.5" cylinder barrel w/rifle sights. It wears a Surefire forend, holds 7 rounds in the tube, one ghost loaded on the carrier, and one in the chamber. These are all Fed LE1321B with another 7 rounds of the same on a velcro side saddle. The two rounds on the right sight forward of the ejection port are Fed Deep Penetrator slugs. If we awaken to indicators of impending violence, this is my primary weapon to secure the hallway long enough for my wife to retrieve our son and retreat into the bedroom with him and the pistol. I still have a hard time getting over the fact that with one pull of the trigger I've effectively dumped the magazine of a Glock 19 into my target (and it easily maintains fist-sized groups inside of 25yds...pic below was 25yds). Not only is a single round very effective, but I've got nine of them before I need to reload. If for whatever reason the fight moves outside and I need to disable a vehicle (maybe they kidnapped my son, who knows) a quick slug changeover should do the job. I have plenty of confidence in the reliability of this M1 through using it (with a different barrel) to shoot sporting clays and (in this barrel/mag configuration) to shoot 3-gun.

http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab104/ASH556/20130824_201119.jpg
http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab104/ASH556/IMG_7131.jpg
http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab104/ASH556/IMG_7132.jpg

If there's some sort of civil unrest or if I just get a bad feeling, I swap out the shotgun for a suppressed 10.3" SBR AR15 with an AAC M4-2000. The rifle's magazine is loaded with 28 rounds of 55gr 5.56 Gold Dot. It wears an Aimpoint T-1 that stays turned on and a Surefire X300 Ultra. This is the more capable gun all-around, and if I knew I was going to get into a gunfight, this is the one I would want to be holding. As great as it is, I still feel that the single round wounding capabilities of the Benelli are better for a purely in-the-home scenario.
http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab104/ASH556/IMG_6600.jpg

As far as armored enemies, (assuming that despite incredibly low odds, it has happened to me) it seems that the force of energy from the 12GA buckshot round delivered COM would perhaps pause his fight long enough for me to deliver a second round to his non-armored noggin. Especially since I'm shooting an auto and follow-up shots are quite fast.

Thoughts?

Can you assess and adjust fast enough to take advantage of the splits offered by a semi auto vs a pump? I'm not being contentious, just curious.

cclaxton
10-19-2014, 09:27 AM
Because a suppressed SBR was brought up earlier in this thread as being ideal for many in an urban/suburban environment. As a datapoint, what are the approximate noise levels (DBA) of, say, a 18" shotgun, 16" AR (.556), and 12" AR (or whatever the recommended setup is) with a suppressor?

I understand that noise/concussion level will vary with model of suppressor, so maybe an approximate range for the commonly available models.
From the website:
For Shotgun suppressors:http://www.silencerco.com/salvo/
dB AT EAR:
12" - 132.0
10" - 134.1
8" - 137.0
6" - 140.6dB AT MUZZLE:
12" - 137.9
10" - 141.1
8" - 145.1
6" - 149.2

ASH556
10-20-2014, 12:32 PM
Can you assess and adjust fast enough to take advantage of the splits offered by a semi auto vs a pump? I'm not being contentious, just curious.

I'm not sure how to quantify that to be able to answer your question. I guess I'll answer it like this: The semi certainly isn't going to slow me down, the pump might. With the semi, my mind only has to process "Oh shit, bad guy not down - press trigger again." With the pump, I would have to be trained to the point that cycling the action immediately following the shot was second nature. Otherwise, my thought process would have to include cycling the action. Not a huge deal, especially with training, but I don't see any benefit to the pump over a known-reliable semi, especially one with the select/changeover capabilities of the M1.

Chuck Haggard
10-21-2014, 09:03 AM
Personally I wouldn't want a can on a handgun for typical defensive use. Leaves way too much handle for someone to grab, even if you tuck back into retention.

ASH556
10-21-2014, 09:06 AM
Personally I wouldn't want a can on a handgun for typical defensive use. Leaves way too much handle for someone to grab, even if you tuck back into retention.

Does a long gun (rifle, shotgun) not offer the same or more potential leverage?

Chuck Haggard
10-21-2014, 09:11 AM
Does a long gun (rifle, shotgun) not offer the same or more potential leverage?

Sorta, it certainly gives the gun holder vastly more leverage to hang on to the gun if it gets grabbed.

Wheeler
10-21-2014, 02:12 PM
I'm not sure how to quantify that to be able to answer your question. I guess I'll answer it like this: The semi certainly isn't going to slow me down, the pump might. With the semi, my mind only has to process "Oh shit, bad guy not down - press trigger again." With the pump, I would have to be trained to the point that cycling the action immediately following the shot was second nature. Otherwise, my thought process would have to include cycling the action. Not a huge deal, especially with training, but I don't see any benefit to the pump over a known-reliable semi, especially one with the select/changeover capabilities of the M1.

There's a fair few folks who think pumps are more reliable than semi's because of the manual cycling. I'm not one of them. The reason I asked is that in my own shooting I've noticed that I can yank the trigger much, much faster than I can recover the sights. I can recover the sights faster than I can think so there's a pause in my shot, assessment, decide then shoot again if need be. I can make those assessments while cycling a pump, but I have to pause when shooting a semi-auto to do the same. That's the long version of why I asked. I hope it makes sense.

ASH556
10-21-2014, 02:28 PM
There's a fair few folks who think pumps are more reliable than semi's because of the manual cycling. I'm not one of them. The reason I asked is that in my own shooting I've noticed that I can yank the trigger much, much faster than I can recover the sights. I can recover the sights faster than I can think so there's a pause in my shot, assessment, decide then shoot again if need be. I can make those assessments while cycling a pump, but I have to pause when shooting a semi-auto to do the same. That's the long version of why I asked. I hope it makes sense.

It makes perfect sense and despite its simplicity is something probably lost on most folks. The only way I can think to quantify it would be looking at my numbers from a very simple stage at the last 3-gun match. 5-steel popper array, maybe 10 or 15 feet out, then 4 steel plates at about 45 feet. Shotgun loaded with 5 rounds, low ready, pistol holstered with 8 rounds. On the buzzer, knock down all 5 poppers with the shotgun, then transition to pistol and put two apiece on the 45ft steel. My time was 10.14 seconds. How does that break down? Well, I know my pistol draw to first round is well over a second. At this point, 1:30+ is about the best I can manage and that's hitting something at 7 yds, not 15. Bottom line is subtracting 2:14 for the shotgun to pistol transition is a pretty safe bet. That leaves 8 seconds to make the 5 shotgun hits, decide that I've hit all of them, and then get the pistol hits. I'm using rifle sights on the Benelli with the front sight blade painted green. I recall seeing it on every target, then assessing that the target is down before moving on.

Could I do it in a gunfight? Maybe, maybe not. Still, the training is at least somewhat there. As far as recoil management, the shotgun has a Limbsaver pad and I weigh 300lb, so it doesn't move that much.

Fair answer?

Fire-Medic
10-21-2014, 03:48 PM
This thread was an excellent read and has made me re-organize my list of priorities on what I need in the arsenal now and what can wait. I have come to the conclusion that "for me" and "mine" the shotgun needs to come before an upper to slap on the AR lower again.

Thanks to all who contributed with their info and points of view.

Wheeler
10-21-2014, 05:57 PM
It makes perfect sense and despite its simplicity is something probably lost on most folks. The only way I can think to quantify it would be looking at my numbers from a very simple stage at the last 3-gun match. 5-steel popper array, maybe 10 or 15 feet out, then 4 steel plates at about 45 feet. Shotgun loaded with 5 rounds, low ready, pistol holstered with 8 rounds. On the buzzer, knock down all 5 poppers with the shotgun, then transition to pistol and put two apiece on the 45ft steel. My time was 10.14 seconds. How does that break down? Well, I know my pistol draw to first round is well over a second. At this point, 1:30+ is about the best I can manage and that's hitting something at 7 yds, not 15. Bottom line is subtracting 2:14 for the shotgun to pistol transition is a pretty safe bet. That leaves 8 seconds to make the 5 shotgun hits, decide that I've hit all of them, and then get the pistol hits. I'm using rifle sights on the Benelli with the front sight blade painted green. I recall seeing it on every target, then assessing that the target is down before moving on.

Could I do it in a gunfight? Maybe, maybe not. Still, the training is at least somewhat there. As far as recoil management, the shotgun has a Limbsaver pad and I weigh 300lb, so it doesn't move that much.

Fair answer?

That works for me. I'm slowly learning to read my sights as I shoot. It's hard for me to mentally process that information to my mind's satisfaction. As one of the top shooters in the world (placed fourth in this year's Steel Challenge World Shoot,) "...that's the difference between 5000 rounds a year and 20,000 rounds a year."

Tamara
10-21-2014, 06:40 PM
Grant Cunningham offered his thoughts (http://www.personalsecurity.us/psi_blog_files/shotguns_for_home_defense.html) on the gauge for home defense purposes today.

ASH556
10-21-2014, 09:07 PM
Grant Cunningham offered his thoughts (http://www.personalsecurity.us/psi_blog_files/shotguns_for_home_defense.html) on the gauge for home defense purposes today.

That's a good read. For me and mine, I still stay with what I laid out above. One thing worth noting is how SIGNIFICANTLY lighter a Benelli is than an 870 or a 590.

Wheeler
10-21-2014, 10:14 PM
Grant Cunningham offered his thoughts (http://www.personalsecurity.us/psi_blog_files/shotguns_for_home_defense.html) on the gauge for home defense purposes today.

That has to be the first time that I've seen that the use of a shotgun for home defense is based on a macho ego, not to be confused with the recommendations of gun store commandos.
It seems to me that moving through a structure with an AR or lever action would offer the same disadvantages as with a splattergun. That sort of negates that particular argument.

Tamara
10-21-2014, 10:20 PM
I was just providing the link. I'm withholding editorial commentary for the nonce. :)

Maple Syrup Actual
10-21-2014, 11:31 PM
I currently, and temporarily, have my hands on a box-mag-fed, 14" barreled, collapsible-stocked pump shotgun.

I'm taking it to a 1-day course/drill session on Sunday. I've never been a shotgun guy at all; I'm pretty sure I've written the entire article referenced above several times on various forums while explaining my reluctance to use shotguns and my preference for ARs.

Now I have a shotgun which obviates my single biggest issue: reload times. And in Canada, the pump gun is non-restricted...i.e. in theory at least, I could sling it and walk to work. In practise of course this would result in immediate ERT intervention but in theory, it's a carry gun, even in Canada.

Suddenly I find myself liking the idea of what is basically a legally-no-different-than-a-over-under, 5000 RPM .32 SMG stuck on 9-round burst, with FMJ-stuffed mags ranging in size from 54 to 180 rounds. Yeah...I'm totally comfortable with this as a home defense machine.

I'm sticking a T1 and an X300u on top and I think I'm going to tear some targets up big time this Sunday.


Coincidentally I own an 870 that I literally never use. I own it solely because it was cheap and I felt like I was supposed to own one. If this machine works out I'm definitely dumping it and insisting they give me the gun when all is said and done.

Wheeler
10-22-2014, 07:43 AM
I was just providing the link. I'm withholding editorial commentary for the nonce. :)

My apologies. That wasn't directed at you. I've disagreed with Grant on more than one occasion. I should have been more specific.

Byron
10-22-2014, 08:58 AM
Personally I wouldn't want a can on a handgun for typical defensive use. Leaves way too much handle for someone to grab, even if you tuck back into retention.

Does a long gun (rifle, shotgun) not offer the same or more potential leverage?
I think the grab/leverage potential is far different for a suppressed pistol than a long gun.

If someone grabs the barrel of a long gun, they don't render it inoperable: they just gain some control of its orientation. You can still fire the long gun while it's being grabbed. Also, if you're able to break contact, the long gun is still fully operational.
(Yes, some shotguns will be more vulnerable than others to having their action manipulated in some unintended way. Something like an AR, however, isn't going to mechanically suffer from someone grabbing the barrel.)

If someone grabs the suppressor on your pistol, they can immediately move it out of battery. This doesn't require any knowledge of firearms: just the natural grabbing and twisting of the exposed 'handle' is likely enough to temporarily prevent the pistol from being fired. If the pistol is fired while the can is being held, it will most likely malfunction. But whether or not you fire, if you're able to break contact, there's a higher chance (compared to the long gun) that the pistol is now in a state of malfunction.

None of this is offering my opinion on the overall decision to choose one over the other. Rather, I just see a big difference in the grab/leverage issue between the two choices that I think is worth considering.

Chuck Haggard
10-22-2014, 09:11 AM
One of my things is weapon retention training, something I have been involved with for decades.

The easiest guns to disarm other people of are long barreled handguns. Fact.

1slow
10-22-2014, 09:36 AM
One of my things is weapon retention training, something I have been involved with for decades.

The easiest guns to disarm other people of are long barreled handguns. Fact.

The longer the barrel and attachments are the more leverage the enemy has on the pistol shooter. I've seen this in classes with Glock 17/19 vs. 2" revolver.

Chuck Haggard
10-22-2014, 09:48 AM
On service sized handguns, from actually working the problem, I note that many of the lights make it tougher to grab the gun due to spreading the grip out.

What's easier to hold on to, a baseball bat at the grip end or the business end?

Snub revolvers are the toughest guns to take away, especially if they have a three finger grip on them instead of the boot type grips.


Anyway, back on subject, long guns allow the holder to keep both hand on the gun and give quite a bit of leverage if one has the training to us it.

ASH556
10-22-2014, 10:08 AM
On service sized handguns, from actually working the problem, I note that many of the lights make it tougher to grab the gun due to spreading the grip out.

What's easier to hold on to, a baseball bat at the grip end or the business end?

Snub revolvers are the toughest guns to take away, especially if they have a three finger grip on them instead of the boot type grips.


Anyway, back on subject, long guns allow the holder to keep both hand on the gun and give quite a bit of leverage if one has the training to us it.

Chuck, I appreciate your input and the fact that it's one of "your things." I don't mean to devalue it at all. However, I do think the suppressor offers some advantages. I suppose a person has to weigh their options in terms of likelihood and importance as to whether suppressing the sound of the shot and decreasing the recoil is a worthwhile tradeoff for offering an attacker a greater leverage point in disarming you.

Chuck Haggard
10-22-2014, 10:10 AM
Chuck, I appreciate your input and the fact that it's one of "your things." I don't mean to devalue it at all. However, I do think the suppressor offers some advantages. I suppose a person has to weigh their options in terms of likelihood and importance as to whether suppressing the sound of the shot and decreasing the recoil is a worthwhile tradeoff for offering an attacker a greater leverage point in disarming you.

I'll throw out the thought that a person needing to worry about recoil control on a 9mm handgun is likely a person needing to think more about handgun retention than perhaps someone with greater physical capabilities.

1slow
10-22-2014, 10:14 AM
........

1slow
10-22-2014, 11:47 AM
My post was redundant.

Haraise
10-22-2014, 01:30 PM
I currently, and temporarily, have my hands on a box-mag-fed, 14" barreled, collapsible-stocked pump shotgun.

I'm taking it to a 1-day course/drill session on Sunday. I've never been a shotgun guy at all; I'm pretty sure I've written the entire article referenced above several times on various forums while explaining my reluctance to use shotguns and my preference for ARs.

Now I have a shotgun which obviates my single biggest issue: reload times. And in Canada, the pump gun is non-restricted...i.e. in theory at least, I could sling it and walk to work. In practise of course this would result in immediate ERT intervention but in theory, it's a carry gun, even in Canada.

Suddenly I find myself liking the idea of what is basically a legally-no-different-than-a-over-under, 5000 RPM .32 SMG stuck on 9-round burst, with FMJ-stuffed mags ranging in size from 54 to 180 rounds. Yeah...I'm totally comfortable with this as a home defense machine.

I'm sticking a T1 and an X300u on top and I think I'm going to tear some targets up big time this Sunday.


Coincidentally I own an 870 that I literally never use. I own it solely because it was cheap and I felt like I was supposed to own one. If this machine works out I'm definitely dumping it and insisting they give me the gun when all is said and done.

With .17 splits, it's about a 3177 RPM .32 SMG on 9 round burst, just to be exact.

And that's a really neat way of thinking about it. Hoping that Rhino AR-10 shotgun turns out better/more reliable than the (horribly clunky) MKA1919/TAC-12A1 or the (fall apart) Saiga 12. That's a phrasing I can get behind. :)

Maple Syrup Actual
10-22-2014, 01:35 PM
That's a funny correction. I had actually originally written "3000" but I was just goofing around and thought "5000" might better express the fact that there'd be no way to perceive the 9 individual rouds. I didn't even think about doing the math on it.

Sent from my SGH-I317M using Tapatalk

czech6
10-22-2014, 01:50 PM
Anyway, back on subject, long guns allow the holder to keep both hand on the gun and give quite a bit of leverage if one has the training to us it.

Especially when used with a sling, the weapon is attached to the user and adds a significant degree of control and retention. Even if the leverage battle is temporarily lost, a sling gives the user a chance to regain control.

Maple Syrup Actual
10-22-2014, 01:59 PM
I haven't tried it yet but I would guess that a slung up long gun would be fairly difficult to use against the person it was attached to, as well.

Sent from my SGH-I317M using Tapatalk

Chuck Haggard
10-22-2014, 02:02 PM
I haven't tried it yet but I would guess that a slung up long gun would be fairly difficult to use against the person it was attached to, as well.

Sent from my SGH-I317M using Tapatalk

Outside of beating them with it, or going for a sling choke, you are correct.

Wheeler
10-22-2014, 03:21 PM
One of my things is weapon retention training, something I have been involved with for decades.

The easiest guns to disarm other people of are long barreled handguns. Fact.

Chuck,
In your weapons retention training have y'all ever used a long gun as an impact weapon? It's not something taught much anymore that I've seen and what little bit of training I received was a long time ago. I'm just curious if it's still a consideration.

Chuck Haggard
10-22-2014, 03:37 PM
Chuck,
In your weapons retention training have y'all ever used a long gun as an impact weapon? It's not something taught much anymore that I've seen and what little bit of training I received was a long time ago. I'm just curious if it's still a consideration.

Yes.

KCMO PD even has, or at least had, a block of instruction on the shotgun as an emergency impact weapon.

I'll throw out that this body of knowledge likely pre-dates even flintlocks.

Wheeler
10-22-2014, 05:44 PM
Yes.

KCMO PD even has, or at least had, a block of instruction on the shotgun as an emergency impact weapon.

I'll throw out that this body of knowledge likely pre-dates even flintlocks.

Just because its old doesn't mean it's not effective. :-)

LHS
10-22-2014, 08:36 PM
I currently, and temporarily, have my hands on a box-mag-fed, 14" barreled, collapsible-stocked pump shotgun.


This intrigues me.

Maple Syrup Actual
10-22-2014, 08:50 PM
I can definitely give you my thoughts on it in a few days...it's on loan from a magazine for review so the whole point is for me to give it a once-over.

So far the big thing that's struck me about this particular gun is that there's no action lock, so you can just go ahead and rack it to empty the chamber without screwing around with a release. I like that. I won't know much about the performance of the thing for a few days but I have to say I like the concept. I'm going to burn a few hundred rounds and pattern it with buck, and then I'll probably have something to say. I have my fingers crossed.

Unfortunately I'm not sure how easy it would be to import one into the US so even if it's great, I think you're probably out of luck on that score.

gregorya57
11-30-2014, 02:55 PM
Anyone here have experience with 12 G flechette rounds vs soft armor? I was thinking of getting a few to experiment with. I'm led to understand that they will defeat soft armor. If so, and prove reliable, I'm thinking that the first two or three rounds in the old Mossberg will be those.

JodyH
11-30-2014, 03:40 PM
Stick with #00 and shoot 'em in the face.

HopetonBrown
11-30-2014, 05:38 PM
or pelvic girdle.

Cookie Monster
11-30-2014, 10:58 PM
You should just assume that any dirtbag that needs to be shot might be wearing armor - soft or plates.

See above, keep it simple no need to be mixing up different recipes in magazine tubes. The pelvic girdle is a good spot but realizing that it is only to get them on the ground to shoot them in the face.

Cookie Monster

DocGKR
11-30-2014, 11:18 PM
http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4330-Shots-to-the-Pelvis

Jeep
12-01-2014, 03:04 PM
Stick with #00 and shoot 'em in the face.

Depends on what's behind the guy, I think. Shooting to the face might have you shooting high.

NerdAlert
12-02-2014, 04:56 PM
Flechette rounds seem a little boutique, expensive, and kind of a waste when you can just do a slug transition to one of these. http://www.brennekeusa.com/cms/fileadmin/BrennekeUSA/Law_enforcement/user_upload/Dokumente/Brenneke_Maximum_Barrier_Penetration_Slug_Informat ion.pdf


Sent from my iPhone, I apologize in advance for typos.

23JAZ
12-02-2014, 05:32 PM
You should just assume that any dirtbag that needs to be shot might be wearing armor - soft or plates.

See above, keep it simple no need to be mixing up different recipes in magazine tubes. The pelvic girdle is a good spot but realizing that it is only to get them on the ground to shoot them in the face.

Cookie Monster

What he said!

LHS
12-05-2014, 01:57 AM
I ordered some of the 20 ga #1 buck we discussed earlier. I'll pattern it and report the results.

Any luck with patterning the Rio #1 buck? I notice that SGAmmo and Ables still have some, and I just happened to pick up a vintage Wingmaster 20ga youth model with a 20" barrel ;)

will_1400
12-13-2014, 09:57 AM
Personally speaking, even though I'm aware of the carbine's many advantages over a shotgun, for my purposes a shotgun seems better for me than a carbine due to lower cost and I've been using shotguns (grew up hunting with Mossy 500s) for longer than I have an AR. The way I see it each has its pros and cons; no matter the choice, it's on the person using the weapon to be aware of what their gun is and isn't.

Tom Givens
12-13-2014, 11:50 AM
I have the Rio 20ga #1 Buck in hand, but hand surgery has kept me from testing it yet. Soon, hopefully.

LtDave
12-13-2014, 04:39 PM
Any luck with patterning the Rio #1 buck? I notice that SGAmmo and Ables still have some, and I just happened to pick up a vintage Wingmaster 20ga youth model with a 20" barrel ;)

It patterned very nicely out of my Ithaca Deerslayer.

RevolverRob
12-17-2014, 12:01 AM
The shotgun, in my opinion, is a universal equalizer. It is easy to train, easy to use, politically correct around the world, versatile by virtue of the ammunition it can use, and effective. And the thing is - it's effective in various sizes too. Which makes it a globally useful gun if you're some place where you can't access 12-gauge for various reasons.

Of course way before I got here smart people made the points on cost and utility, but I will share an anecdote. About a 8 years ago now, I was working for a retailer. We were closing up shop and my wife (then girlfriend) was waiting to pick me up. As she waited a store employee came out and was arguing with his girlfriend. The incident got heated and the guy hits his girlfriend. My wife called the cops and served as a witness. Next thing I know this guy is telling me my wife better "watch out", because he was a manager and knew when I was working. Being a poor college kid at the time I had only two .38 revolvers. I took her shooting but she lacked confidence and skill to feel comfortable with the handgun. So a few days later we bought her a Remington 870 Youth gun, a flat of 20-gauge birdshot, a few boxes of #3 buck, and a box of clay pigeons. A friend joined us at the range the next day and after a few hours of dusting flying clays, sitting clays, doubles (!), rolling rabbits, and then some work on steel and silhouettes with buck, she had found "her" gun. I stuck a butt cuff on the end and loaded it with more buck, taught her basic loading skills, combined with a slide back through the port reload. She practiced for a few hours with dummy shells.

In less than 12 hours of practice and training, my wife had skills necessary to drop a bad guy within the 12-yard max distance inside our home, I knew that. AND it didn't cost us an arm and a leg. The grand total for a new shotgun, ammo, and range time ran about 350 bucks. She still practiced twice a year in Texas, mostly clay shooting, and is a great shot with a shotgun, even bigger 12-gauge autoloaders and the like. The bottom line is, why shotgun? Because inexpensive, easy to train, FUN and easy marksmanship training with clay pigeons and other targets, and effective.

-Rob

PS: The idiot who hit his girlfriend went to jail for domestic assault and was fired. I was told, that our friend who went shooting with us, casually mentioned the day after to another worker, within earshot of domestic abuse asshole, "Man, Rob's girlfriend sure can shoot her new shotgun well!"

ScotchMan
02-03-2015, 01:02 PM
I use a Remington 870 for HD. It sits in the corner with Magpul stock and fore end, Surefire X300, Magpul MS2 sling, Mesa side saddle, and a fiber optic site. It is loaded with #4 buckshot, with 00 buck and slugs on the side. I have occasionally run it with a 26" barrel for the sound concerns mentioned earlier; my HD plan involves calling 911 and shooting anything that comes through the door without a badge, so the barrel length is likely not an issue. Today it sits with 18.5" though.

While I could have an AR in NY, it would be limited to 10 rounds, and it would look like this (or a lot worse):

http://cdn5.gunssavelives.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/scr.jpg

It might be a better weapon, but I don't shoot trap and skeet with it, and it only holds 4 more rounds than my 870. And if it was displayed to a jury, it would be a terrible assault rifle, though my shotgun probably doesn't look much more appetizing to the sheep given all the Magpul.

Plans are in the work to move to a free state. At that time, I will probably gift this shotgun to a responsible friend staying here, behind enemy lines, and pick up an AR-15 and a suppressor. I will take carbine classes and get as effective with the carbine as I am with the handgun and shotgun now. However, in my current circumstance, I just don't see the value in buying a weird and/or neutered AR and spending time and money becoming efficient with it, for a marginal if any improvement over the 870 I am already good with.

Remove the political BS out of the equation, and it becomes a lot more black and white in my opinion. The shotgun then feels like the revolver to me; probably better for people with minimal training or motivation who want to have a gun in the house.

Chuck Haggard
02-03-2015, 01:12 PM
Stuck with stupid laws I would go that same route. I have a fondness for my 590s over the 870, but that's personal preference.

LHS
02-06-2015, 01:47 AM
Well, I broke down and ordered 250 rounds of the Rio 20ga #1 buck. Should be here in a week or so.

I've got a pair of 20ga shotguns to test it in, and I think it'll be an interesting comparison. One's my old early-90s-vintage 870 Express that was fully slicked out by Wilson Combat, the other is a 1954-vintage Wingmaster youth model that looks like Little Johnny's First Riot Gun.

ScotchMan
02-10-2015, 12:08 PM
Stuck with stupid laws I would go that same route. I have a fondness for my 590s over the 870, but that's personal preference.

Buying today, my choice would be neither. I am completely turned off to everything Remington after the 700 recall, R1, new R1 (still can move the trigger side to side .5" both ways), 870 express finishes, etc. Mossberg is good to go but I don't like the loose fit on many of them, though that is purely personal preference. Definitely like them over Remington.

Buying today, I would get a Benelli pump, or if possible, an M2.

Chuck Haggard
02-10-2015, 12:41 PM
I've got a nearly 200 gun Mossberg data base to build my opinion off of, worked on them, shot them extensively, seen them abused, etc. Hence where my opinion comes from. Not butt-hurt at all if people feel differently.

LHS
02-14-2015, 02:30 AM
Buying today, my choice would be neither. I am completely turned off to everything Remington after the 700 recall, R1, new R1 (still can move the trigger side to side .5" both ways), 870 express finishes, etc. Mossberg is good to go but I don't like the loose fit on many of them, though that is purely personal preference. Definitely like them over Remington.

Buying today, I would get a Benelli pump, or if possible, an M2.

Sample size of one, but after watching the sole Benelli (an M3) repeatedly choke in a class, I'll stick with my older 870s. We could make the thing choke on demand in semi-auto just by gripping the forend too tightly. It apparently bound up the magazine tube, so when the bolt cycled, there was nothing to be picked up. Plus, the rear sight fell off sometime on day 2 (though that could have been remedied with loctite).

Mossberg makes a good shotgun as well, but I'm used to the control layout of the 870.

Paul
02-14-2015, 05:57 PM
Over the last 10 years the supply of shotgun ammo has been relatively stable. I've never had a problem finding field loads to use as practice ammo, I can go to at 5 different stores and find a 1,000 rounds for less that $240. There's a fairly consistent production of duty/defense ammo and there hasn't been a lot of price gouging.

Looking at the latest round of 5.56/.223 ammo silliness, which I half suspect is getting blown out of proportion by people that stand to make a buck off the hysteria, there's always some reason for prices to stay high and availability to be spotty. In all fairness to rifles, most practice ammo makes a pretty good defensive ammo, I can't say the same about bird shot.

Rich
02-17-2015, 06:25 PM
I have been reading everything I can find about a home defense arsenal. I cannot find any justification for choosing a shotgun over an AR except for cost. The shotgun is slow to reload, carries a limited amount of ammo, the ammo for it is large and heavy, the tube magazine is susceptible to damage rendering the shotgun useless.
Well the only justification I can see is for bears but those are very scarce here. Or for three gun.
Any substantial arguments for a shotgun being a necessity?

edit to add.
Actually I said that wrong. Its not about choosing a shotgun over an AR. What realistically does a shotgun bring to the table that the AR doesn't cover. Or an AR combo of a 5.56 and a .308.

Since the early 80`s Ive had a small arsenal .
AR15, M1 Car , Mini 14/30 , high power bolt action, lever action, 12GA, revolvers , pistols


If I could have only 1 long arm I would choose the 12GA
Main reason I can hunt tiny doves up to big moose. Bird Shot, Buck Shot , Slugs (Wish I could have access to military 12GA loadings that explode.)
I can also use it for HD/SD


BTW
I'm think of selling off my 2 Carbines.

I highly doubt I will ever use them for HD.

Jeep
02-17-2015, 10:48 PM
I agree. A 12 gauge is a heck of a weapon at any distance at which it is generally legal for a civilian to shoot at someone, and it can do a whole lot more.

An a 20 gauge isn't bad either. Overall, shotguns probably are the best all around weapons out there.

RevolverRob
02-18-2015, 07:05 AM
Buying today, I would get a Benelli pump, or if possible, an M2.

The biggest problem with Benellis is the lack of available stocks with shorter LOPs and the high price tag on them. I'm 5'7" and my wife is 5'1" and only one of us can properly shoulder a 14.5" LOP Benelli. Meanwhile, we both do fine with 12.5"-13" Remington stocks. Yea I can buy a Benelli and stick a 13" Mesa stock on it, but that adds the pistol grip that I find all kinds of wrong in terms of handling a shotgun. Add to the fact that the Magpul SGAs are the best stocks every designed for a pump shotgun (I'm sorry it's true) and it's tough not to go Mossberg or Remington.

In my opinion the best deal going in shotguns is the 590 with ghost rings or a used Wilson Combat 870 (which run about half the MSRP). I prefer the 870 for the slicker action, but if action smoothness was all that counted, we'd all be running around with Winchester Model 12s (not that I would object to that).

For those running 20-gauge 870s, Mesa now has a receiver adapter that allows you to use 12-gauge stocks. They are about 20 bucks and I keep meaning to order a few, because I feel like they are going to get discontinued. It's just one of those "things"....

Irelander
02-19-2015, 11:36 AM
I was reading this thread and thinking of the reasons why I choose a 870 for my HD long gun and I remembered an interesting story I read from the AI&P website:


1991 Metro Dade Range, Miami FL. Two SWAT members put on a demonstration. One had an 870 with 20" barrel and three shot tube. He was loaded with 2 3/4" 00 buck which has 12 pellets so that was 8 rounds = 96 pellets. The other had a fully auto MP-5 type sub machine gun in 9mm with a 30 round magazine. Empty frames were used to simulate a window and they would both begin to fire when they turned. Standing targets were set behind the frames with just cardboard to show hits. The target turned and they began firing. The sub gun guy was really working the trigger perfect and putting out 3 round burst. The pump shooter was rocking, wow, he had that pump down. Everyone conceded that the Sub gun shooter finished almost a second before the shotgun shooter did. But here is the point people. The shooter with the 12ga put 96 .32 caliber pellets through that window in almost the same time the Sub Machine gun shooter put 30 9mm rounds.

The above proved to me beyond all doubt that the 12ga shotgun has more initial firepower then a sub-machine gun. I say initial firepower because the sub gun was mag fed and could be reloaded faster. KEY POINT. If you address a close quarters threat with the maximum fire power and end the threat there is no need to reload. There is no weapon that you can use that can put 9,12,15, 21 or more pellets depending on what you are using into a threat with one ignition of a primer. Nothing. Someone shooting a high capacity hand gun would have to pull the trigger 15 times to put the same number of holes in a threat that you can put with one pull of the trigger if you are shooting 12 ga 3" magnum 00 buckshot.
- from www.aiptactical.com

Unobtanium
01-08-2017, 11:19 PM
I've got a nearly 200 gun Mossberg data base to build my opinion off of, worked on them, shot them extensively, seen them abused, etc. Hence where my opinion comes from. Not butt-hurt at all if people feel differently.

Resurrect for new intel. This is from the owner of Battlefield Las Vegas.


We have a Benelli factory SBR that has been on the line since day one OVER four years ago and it runs and runs and runs. Mossbergs and Remington pump-actions will get 3 and at MOST 4 weeks of use before they are hard-broke. It's been abused with 00 buck, birdshot and even higher velocity frangible but nothing has taken it out of action.

If I ever had to have one shotgun for the rest of my life, it would be the Benelli M4.

V/R
Ron


Trust me, we keep at least ten Mossberg and/or Remington's on hand because they go down so often. The biggest offenders are the Mossberg 500 and the Remington 870 (standard model I would guess). We had some old 70's or 80's police trade-in's that last quite a while and they finally all went down. We can get those up and running again but we need to punch the rivet on the left side of the receiver and replace a component. The Mossberg 590's do last much longer than the other two standard models they eventually break as well. We have a bunch of shotguns that we still have to demil. It's cheaper just to buy a new one than spend the money and TIME on replacement parts and all the "tuning" to make the replacement parts work properly.

If it was up to me, I would only use the Benelli M4's but customers want to see and experience the "pumping" action of a shotgun. They've seen and heard it their entire lives on movies and television so most customers tend to choose the pump-actions. We let customers know that the Benelli (we've only had one) it much lighter on recoil so it does get used quite a bit as well.

V/R
Ron

Trukinjp13
01-09-2017, 12:08 AM
Would love to get a 1301 to run. But My 590a1 sits by the bed for social work. AR is in the safe. I feel much more comfortable nailing someone with 00 and them going down.


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BehindBlueI's
01-09-2017, 12:10 AM
Any cops found a homeowner dead with a shotgun or AR in their hands*? They both seem to work real well the vast majority of the time.

The only homeowners I've seen lose when using a shotgun didn't fire it. I'm not in front of my stats, but I can only think of two, and neither were due to limitations of the gun. They both stemmed from not firing and having a struggle over the gun. In one instance the home owner had it taken away from him and was shot with his own gun, in the other a second intruder shot the homeowner with a revolver while the first struggled with him over the home owner's gun.

I've not seen a homeowner lose yet when using an AR. I've seen them lose with an AR in the house they never accessed, but never someone dead or dying with an AR in their hands.

*killed or critically injured by home invaders, not suicides and the like

Unobtanium
01-09-2017, 06:58 AM
Any cops found a homeowner dead with a shotgun or AR in their hands*? They both seem to work real well the vast majority of the time.

The only homeowners I've seen lose when using a shotgun didn't fire it. I'm not in front of my stats, but I can only think of two, and neither were due to limitations of the gun. They both stemmed from not firing and having a struggle over the gun. In one instance the home owner had it taken away from him and was shot with his own gun, in the other a second intruder shot the homeowner with a revolver while the first struggled with him over the home owner's gun.

I've not seen a homeowner lose yet when using an AR. I've seen them lose with an AR in the house they never accessed, but never someone dead or dying with an AR in their hands.

*killed or critically injured by home invaders, not suicides and the like

Thing I like most about a shotgun is that to be blunt, it tears shit up. It pushes a 1oz chunk of soft 3/4 " across lead out the muzzle at well over the speed of sound. Or it launches 12 .33cal chunks of lead, with each trigger pull. It's truly destructive. If you put either of those payloads anywhere approximating COM, it's going to be catestrophic.

And there's no ballistic masturbation...what brand 00? Was it plated?? 1325fps or 1290? Was it a 1oz or 1-1/4oz slug?

Noone gives a damn. It doesn't matter. It's a beast and the color of the fur doesn't matter.

JHC
01-09-2017, 07:41 AM
Thing I like most about a shotgun is that to be blunt, it tears shit up. It pushes a 1oz chunk of soft 3/4 " across lead out the muzzle at well over the speed of sound. Or it launches 12 .33cal chunks of lead, with each trigger pull. It's truly destructive. If you put either of those payloads anywhere approximating COM, it's going to be catestrophic.
.

No kidding. I recently dispatched an injured deer with a single load of Flite Control #1 buck; range, about 5 yards. Holy shit. I never had reason in the past to hunt with buckshot and that's the first critter I've killed with it. I'd read what to expect. It exceeded my expectation.

blues
01-09-2017, 09:19 AM
No kidding. I recently dispatched an injured deer with a single load of Flite Control #1 buck; range, about 5 yards. Holy shit. I never had reason in the past to hunt with buckshot and that's the first critter I've killed with it. I'd read what to expect. It exceeded my expectation.

I like both the Flite Control and Hornady Versatite. Recently I've replaced my shotgun with the AR as primary long gun for HD but I wouldn't feel at a disadvantage with either. (Just hope I have the opportunity to throw the Howard Leight's on first should the need arise.)

Trukinjp13
01-09-2017, 11:47 AM
I like both the Flite Control and Hornady Versatite. Recently I've replaced my shotgun with the AR as primary long gun for HD but I wouldn't feel at a disadvantage with either. (Just hope I have the opportunity to throw the Howard Leight's on first should the need arise.)

I can shoot my shotgun without hearing protection, would hate to hear my ar in doors.


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