The Temple Index

[LittleLebowski]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0fDjWKQokM

3:10

[Haraise]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0fDjWKQokM

3:10

Is a joke, yes? Yes? :(

[Wayne Dobbs]

That will cleanse the gene pool...

[LittleLebowski]

Is a joke, yes? Yes? :(

Supposedly full time LEO and trainer for his PD.

[Sheep Have Wool]

Mentioned here: http://www.breachbangclear.com/patrol-vehicle-cqb-instructor-course/

[JV_]

When I read the thread title I thought we were talking about the flashlight temple index .... I can't say I've ever seen this version.

[SGT_Calle]

I first saw mention of this technique this morning on ENDO.
http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/2014/09/16/abner-miranda-and-the-temple-index-of-doom/
Apparently a reply from the trainer in question.

[Chuck Haggard]

I've heard of that being used by .mil, wearing armor, in a tight team environment. In this context, or most others, it makes zero sense IMHO

[Default.mp3]

I've heard of that being used by .mil, wearing armor, in a tight team environment. In this context, or most others, it makes zero sense IMHO

I also distinctly recall DocGKR speaking about how Kyle Defoor utilized a variant of it for running with the handgun, not to mention the aforementioned Tom Petty/Steve Fisher vehicles class.

Beyond that, Matthew Graham (who popularized the eponymous Graham method (http://pistol-training.com/archives/9069)) also appears to utilize this temple index during the scan and assess:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7Qm2mHQ_Ok#t=162

I guess the problem here is that there is no context for why it is used (and the rebuttal on ENDO certainly doesn't clarify anything). I have some SWAGs as to why he might do that, but they're really nothing more than that, so I'll not embarrass myself by broadcasting them to the public.

[jetfire]

I also distinctly recall DocGKR speaking about how Kyle Defoor utilized a variant of it for running with the handgun, not to mention the aforementioned Tom Petty/Steve Fisher vehicles class.

Todd mentioned something similar in a class a while ago for running with a handgun in a public space. The visual appearance of a person running and holding something black/shiny up to their ear isn't nearly as startling as someone at low ready.

[Sensei]

It seems like an excellent way to be disarmed.

[JustOneGun]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0fDjWKQokM

3:10
Okay I pride myself on thinking outside of the box. So I'm going to use it as a ruse? Sort of a cell phone to the ear disguise? It will never work. Even this geek would keep saying, "TAKE ME TO YOUR LEADER" as I walked around with it sticking up like an antenna.

[NickDrak]

In my opinion a "high port" or something slightly less exaggerated with a pistol than what Abner showed in the linked to video has some practical application for exiting from a vehicle while under fire when you are concerned about muzzling yourself during your movement(s) from the interior of a vehicle, and also to avoid muzzling other friendlies/unknowns as you exit from the interior of a vehicle.

It is NOT something I would use during my scan or as a default ready position.

I wouldn't be so quick to call derp on the technique. Maybe the way it was shown in that video, but it does have a practical application elsewhere.

[Jay Cunningham]

I've seen a technique from a very highly trained guy (you'd all know him) where he held the gun more or less beside his head, muzzle up. He said he used it primarily in PSD applications.

edited to add: it looked a lot more like Sabrina than the still I saw from the above

[JustOneGun]

I first saw mention of this technique this morning on ENDO.
http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/2014/09/16/abner-miranda-and-the-temple-index-of-doom/
Apparently a reply from the trainer in question.

This is a good reminder, "If you can't laugh at yourself we will surely do it for you." Haven't we all said or did something like that and a second later it was, "Did I just say that?" (:

[JWinTN]

Supposedly full time LEO and trainer for his PD.

In the video, he uses past tense: "Having been a cop myself. . . ."

[orionz06]

In the video, he uses past tense: "Having been a cop myself. . . ."

Is that so? Shall we call that position Segway Ready?

[MDS]

Nevermind. More careful viewing shows a single spare mag. :-/

[backtrail540]

Mentioned here: http://www.breachbangclear.com/patrol-vehicle-cqb-instructor-course/


That's where I first heard of it as well, although the video seems to use it in a different context than the article. While it seems a little scary at first, Steve Fisher seems to be a pretty well rounded guy training wise (from an outsiders persepective anyway). As with anything, it will have it's detractors and proponents and only time will tell if it becomes a mainstream staple.

In the context of vehicle movement, as in the article, it seems to have benefits. Having never trained around vehicles, others with experience may be able to point out flaws in this arena.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

I can deal with the whole high-on-meth-port scan thing. I mean conceivably you might end up in some kind of crowded environment where people are jostling past you after you just saved the world by shooting a supervillain and you'd want some kind of hard reference for having your gun point in the safest direction. Obviously it doesn't seem likely, but okay, whatever. Different strokes for differently-abled folks.


I cannot, however, deal with that backpack.

[gunrunner505]

Thanks LL, 5 minutes of my life wasted. You know I'm kidding. :D

The only thing I can see is it kept him from flagging anyone that may have been nearby during a scan.

I'll pass on this. Thanks anyway Lumpy....

[Sigfan26]

I'm taking one of Petty's low light/vehicle cqb courses in October. IIRC, the method is used mostly with vehicles to prevent pointing the weapon at the lower extremities.

[Sigfan26]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=k74HqEPxePY
Petty gives a brief explanation at 1min 40secons

[LSP972]

Supposedly full time LEO and trainer for his PD.

Your second clue about this guy is when he says:

"… having been a cop…"

"...whenever I changed agencies…"

That's where I stopped watching. I know guys like that. I always feel the need for having a bag of peanuts handy when I talk with them.

BTW… the first clue is the fact that he's standing in shade, wearing cool-beans Oakley look-alikes and a CamelBak… while doing video. Seriously? A CamelBak while making a talk-only video? The only thing missing is the beard.

.

[LittleLebowski]

Your second clue about this guy is when he says:

"… having been a cop…"

"...whenever I changed agencies…"

That's where I stopped watching. I know guys like that. I always feel the need for having a bag of peanuts handy when I talk with them.

BTW… the first clue is the fact that he's standing in shade, wearing cool-beans Oakley look-alikes and a CamelBak… while doing video. Seriously? A CamelBak while making a talk-only video? The only thing missing is the beard.

.

Copy on the LE stuff, noted for future reference.

[Unobtanium]

I also distinctly recall DocGKR speaking about how Kyle Defoor utilized a variant of it for running with the handgun, not to mention the aforementioned Tom Petty/Steve Fisher vehicles class.

Beyond that, Matthew Graham (who popularized the eponymous Graham method (http://pistol-training.com/archives/9069)) also appears to utilize this temple index during the scan and assess:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7Qm2mHQ_Ok#t=162

I guess the problem here is that there is no context for why it is used (and the rebuttal on ENDO certainly doesn't clarify anything). I have some SWAGs as to why he might do that, but they're really nothing more than that, so I'll not embarrass myself by broadcasting them to the public.

For running with a handgun, I was taught finger on register, arm locked out, pointed at the ground by my side. This bit of technique was taught to me by "SOUTHNARC" during one of his AMIS courses. His reason for it is two-fold.

One, is safety. If you fall, your finger off the bang-switch and the weapon not pumping up and down in your hand as you run is about as close to "safe" as falling with a loaded weapon can get. Two, it was taught in the context of moving through a structure, and it is low-profile physically, as well as allows you to fire behind you if needed by simply raising the arm toward the target and obtaining a sight picture, thus flagging less things as well as being a clean movement not likely to hit a door frame/furniture/whatever, if done behind yourself (as you just passed through that space.)

If someone has a better idea, I am very much in-tune to hear it, but I do not feel that this "temple index" is right for me, in my situation (civilian/home owner).

*not that I would clear a building by myself, either, unless I had ZERO choice, as is the premise of, and the take-away point from AMIS---it's stoopid dangerous and just stoopid stupid, unless you do NOT have time or an option.

[Chuck Haggard]

I teach to run with the gun in a high 2, or just holster, run like hell, then draw again.

[opmike]

Are people now integrating a quick aerial drone scan in their search-and-assess?

[Sheep Have Wool]

Are people now integrating a quick aerial drone scan in their search-and-assess?

I think we've got way worse things than drones to worry about up high.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJVpO9qnFS0

If it's tactical enough for Dutch, it's good enough for me. :p

[MDS]

Hey, now. Let's remember this is a technical discussion. We can start a new Romper Room thread to see who can come up with the funniest, most over-the-top technique that incorporates a movie reference. ;)

[backtrail540]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAoq8C-wK-Q&app=desktop

Fisher talks about this around the 40 min mark.

[Steve f]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAoq8C-wK-Q&app=desktop

Fisher talks about this around the 40 min mark.


It's not a end all be all muzzle has been around for years
It's useful if you have small children
Around vehicles with others not sweeping yourself in SUL
And moving into cover that others occupy
Also requires less movement in confined spaces
With others or linear tubular assaults
It's an option.

It's not being used as a ready
It's a post shooting action

[KevinB]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/Iraq/withdrawl2.jpg

To me it's very similar to 'runs with rifle' - with more emphasis on the muzzle (due to short barrel length of the pistol not to shoot oneself in the grape).

[Steve f]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/Iraq/withdrawl2.jpg

To me it's very similar to 'runs with rifle' - with more emphasis on the muzzle (due to short barrel length of the pistol not to shoot oneself in the grape).

correct the true proper position has it muzzle above head based on index points of the firing hand i have also seen it used in shoot house classes as well

i found it useful during force on force where kids were present under feet of the age group of 5-10 years old that happen to be clingers at that time frame low ready sul or holstering wasn't or could be immediate I'm a big high port advocate as well i understand them all they all have a purpose

[LittleLebowski]

It's not a end all be all muzzle has been around for years
It's useful if you have small children
Around vehicles with others not sweeping yourself in SUL
And moving into cover that others occupy
Also requires less movement in confined spaces
With others or linear tubular assaults
It's an option.

It's not being used as a ready
It's a post shooting action

Welcome aboard!

[Steve f]

how have you been dude?

one of the best photos of this being used based on muzzle awareness in and around others is the assignation photos from the attempt on the 40th president, with a USSS agent with his wheel gun up to his head it made sense then it makes sense now

[Sigfan26]

Cotton candy!!!

[Sasage]

Just listened to a podcast on the way home from work where Steve spoke on the history of the temple index position.

[LittleLebowski]

Just listened to a podcast on the way home from work where Steve spoke on the history of the temple index position.

What podcast?

[Sasage]

What podcast?
Practically Tactical #45. Mainly focused on vehicle concepts but mentioned temple index towards the end of the show. Practically Tactical Ep 45 - Vehicle Tactics with…: http://youtu.be/BAoq8C-wK-Q

[Wayneard3413]

While I have not attended the vehicle class, I have trained with Steve multiple times. He is not big on fluff or flash either on the square range or inside the shoothouse. The context I have seen a muzzle up or "temple index" being utilized to a great extent is exiting a vehicle without flagging your legs or other people in the area.

We use a muzzle up position in our vehicle classes to provide a safe direction with other "people" in the vehicle with you. Think pushing a passenger out of the way to engage a target out their window, or engaging a target out of the back window without flagging someone sitting beside you.

http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n538/Wayne3413/Capture_zps44a9bb5d.jpg (http://s1138.photobucket.com/user/Wayne3413/media/Capture_zps44a9bb5d.jpg.html)

[Chuck Haggard]

I have thoughts of this sort reference "It depends", "mission drives the tactics train", METT-T, and "context", however none of them would have been this well articulated;

http://monderno.com/training/temple-index-real-world-versus-range/

[Totem Polar]

Not much to add, but when I trained with Graham, he gave more or less similar reasons as yeti; vehicle transitioning, crowds, tubes etc. His explanation made a hell of a lot of sense to me in context.

Only three places the muzzle can really be: up, out or down. What's above you, what's below you, what's around you; make the appropriate choice. EG. At the indoor range, the "man dance" makes more sense. In thick crowds, maybe not so much.

I'll get back in my lane now.

[Dagga Boy]

I think the emphasis in the article about context is key. As Steve said, it is not a "ready". It is an option for a safe place for the muzzle in some limited roles. Of course there will be a bunch of folks teaching it as the end all be all technique for everything becasue it is a good technique for a few things. The biggest place I see a use is in a vehicle with a bunch of friendlies also in the car. In some peoples world, that is a regular day at the office (sort of like the high ready for those who work in tubes).

Again, A technique, not THE technique. Of course there will be a bunch of folks who make it the new SUL as the "Look how opertational operator operating" I am.

[breakingtime91]

When I run I move with muzzle up with either a rifle or pistol. I'm not sure If I use the temple index buts its in that area. I know there are other ways to move with a rifle or a pistol but I feel like this is the greatest compromise. It only took me once to see a dude fall at my local range while running in SUL and have the whole gun go straight into the deck and get pushed out of battery to decide kyle defoor was right about running with a gun.

[DocGKR]

Temple index, high port, high ready, or whatever the in vogue term is these days is not a new technique and has been around for years, both in military SOF circles and in LE. In fact one of the largest west coast LE agencies teaches it as their primary movement and CQB position for all the excellent reasons outlined by Steve Fisher on page 4 of this thread. It is a useful position to have in the toolbox, but as noted by Nyeti above, it is not "THE" only technique.

[Dagga Boy]

We ran a class last weekend that was a close quarters shooting course. Essentially 2-7 yards for most of the class (inside of 2 in the "ECQC" range is where SouthNarc does an exceptional job, and could be a couple days by itself). The difference in this class versus most is there were a bunch of non-shoot/non hostile "non-targets" mixed in with the targets. They had to get treated like the things on this planet you love the most. This included a snake drill with target stands instead of humans (which meant they could get shot far tighter) and some difficult manuevering drills. Many of the students found that none of the positions would work for everything. Low ready worked for most, which is why we like it for most work and is what we have found to be our most used go to for engagements during the evaluation phase and searching. It sort of does most thing CONUS related well. With that said, there were several corrections for muzzles covering ankles and legs, so again...all of them can be messed up or not used correctly. Our students found themselves in a position of starting in a low ready, transitioning to a high at some point, to an indoor, back to a low, to contact and retention, to some SUL variation. Temple index cannot be used due to our range restrictions, but was discussed on applicability. Again, I can do most work from low, but I can get more efficient with some additions. It was sort of funny when we ran the snake drill (again set up far tighter than Ken Hackathorn does running it live) and I asked who wanted to run it live with the person running it in a high ready? No volunteers and some light bulb moments. Again, you need to have a solid grasp of how to apply these things and it helps to "show" people how easy it is for things to go wrong.

[Steve f]

Big D
miss you man, ill be in your AO-2-7 NOV...

as spoken its not the end all be all having done the snake drill from temple index/gun up whatever shit....
as a crowd maneuver TTP is works the end user must be switched on as I go at it as a hands on drill

the sad part is most will never understand the hows whys or whats to this

[LorenzoS]

Demonstrated by Tactical Response star pupil Tex Grebner at 0:40, or perhaps he's just modeling the tactical tanktop.

http://youtu.be/pLN3XLyP2W4

[Sigfan26]

In William Petty's low light/vehicle cqb course, the Temple Index was taught so we could rapidly, and safely, maneuver in and around vehicles or in crowded environments. It is the easiest (and, arguably, most effective) technique to teach for vehicle borne operations, allows easy use of the nondominant hand , and allows one to easily scan without posing an imminent threat to those around them. It's an excellent tool, but even Petty will say it isn't the be all end all. It's situational, just like anything else.

[Tamara]

Demonstrated by Tactical Response star pupil Tex Grebner...

Tex also has a pistol in that video, but you don't seem to be discounting the utility of a handgun just because he sported one in his paws.

[Alpha Sierra]

It only took me once to see a dude fall at my local range while running in SUL and have the whole gun go straight into the deck and get pushed out of battery to decide kyle defoor was right about running with a gun.
What is our natural reaction when we fall? To outstretch our hands to "break" it. Never mind that there are better ways to fall, outstretching our arms and hands is what we do if no one tells us any better.

Soooo......if you do that (outstretching your arms and hands to break a fall) with a pistol in one hand, it's very likely that you're going to jam that gun into the ground no matter where you had it pointing before you lost your balance.

[Dagga Boy]

The amount of pure unadulterated fail in every part of the Tex video makes me glad that there is a place not around us that these types of folks can go train. We don't want them. I do feel bad for those who don't know any better who buy into this stuff. But hey, if after a shooting you want to put a pistol next to your head facing up and do a pirouette, well by all means......:confused:. Personally, I want to keep my pistol trained on the last known threat that is hopefully down or running and just use my head and eyes to check for a place to go or additional threats.

Falling with a pistol. This is an issue unto itself. If you think falling forward is bad.....falling back and to oblique angles is worse. As I have said before we are victims of our own experience. My experience with running with pistols is bad. Falling, ambush, out running your brain, are all issues I have seen firsthand and its all scary. My own view......no good can come of it. Again, I am big on either slowing down to a movement level you can fully control when the gun is out, or holster it an run when not in full control and where the focus is movement. The compromise is running with the gun holstered and a grip established.

[DocGKR]

Unexpectedly falling with a handgun tucked in close to the body ala SUL can result in bad things happening if there is no engaged manual safety (think Glock, Sig, revolver, etc...) and a button, zipper, toggle, piece of gear, or other item engages the trigger...

[breakingtime91]

What is our natural reaction when we fall? To outstretch our hands to "break" it. Never mind that there are better ways to fall, outstretching our arms and hands is what we do if no one tells us any better.

Soooo......if you do that (outstretching your arms and hands to break a fall) with a pistol in one hand, it's very likely that you're going to jam that gun into the ground no matter where you had it pointing before you lost your balance.

so when you fall you go condition black? Arguing that because its a natural reaction without a dangerous tool in your hand, you will do it the same with with that tool is weird to me. how do you run with a gun bro?

[breakingtime91]

The amount of pure unadulterated fail in every part of the Tex video makes me glad that there is a place not around us that these types of folks can go train. We don't want them. I do feel bad for those who don't know any better who buy into this stuff. But hey, if after a shooting you want to put a pistol next to your head facing up and do a pirouette, well by all means......:confused:. Personally, I want to keep my pistol trained on the last known threat that is hopefully down or running and just use my head and eyes to check for a place to go or additional threats.

Falling with a pistol. This is an issue unto itself. If you think falling forward is bad.....falling back and to oblique angles is worse. As I have said before we are victims of our own experience. My experience with running with pistols is bad. Falling, ambush, out running your brain, are all issues I have seen firsthand and its all scary. My own view......no good can come of it. Again, I am big on either slowing down to a movement level you can fully control when the gun is out, or holster it an run when not in full control and where the focus is movement. The compromise is running with the gun holstered and a grip established.

thanks nyeti, really good points. I think its hard for some people to understand there is not one solution. When running I either run muzzle up or holster. When searching and assessing after "engaging" a threat I stay on the threat, whether the gun is still extended or not is all based on the situation..

[Dagga Boy]

What is kind of funny with the whole post shooting dance, painting the fence, full Sabrina, etc.... is that in my circle of people, all the ones who have actually shot people in the U.S. are all on the same page of keeping that muzzle on that downed threat unless you have to move it. No one is against regain of situational awareness and checking around, but all of the games that get played with post shooting tend to be "theory based". I really like a good scan prior to holstering and for holstering to be very reluctant, but some of this stuff is just plain stupid and I have no idea what world it came from other than the "seems like a good idea" fairy.

[Surf]

I had many discussions with several "notable" trainers on this topic, plus endless discussion on the error net. I came from that time frame when high port was a technique championed by a certain military group. Yes I know where it came from and know the guy(s) who introduced the technique to them. I remember when high port was poo poo'd because that certain military sun and surf group was often teased by their peers and everyone else bashed on high port because they used it so much. I remember the days prior to 911 when CQB was the bread and butter of domestic LE units and the major military was still on a different page than they are today with their urban training. We gave a lot of input back then and high port existed for us.

I always stated that you needed to be able to use a technique that allowed you to point the muzzle in the safest possible direction no matter your circumstance. A short few years back, traveling the country from various training seminars, shooting courses, open and closed, for LE and military or both, this topic often came up as I run high port as a part of my normal routine. Of course the comparison to that certain mil unit used to come up, even though I have been running it for longer than I can remember. Then you would always get the age old argument about pointing you gun up when there might be people upstairs. Again this is from some very notable individuals with names that everyone here would know. I used to always give the response, that within the world that I normally work, we drop off guys on the main floor to stay with the "bodies" as the remainder of the structure or residence is cleared, which often includes a second floor. Now if I only ran SUL or a variation of a low ready, I would in fact be facing my muzzle at individuals on the lower floors. The point being is that I needed to be able to point the muzzle of my weapon in the safest possible direction given the circumstance. That might be up, down, sideways etc. But without the proper training it does not become natural or fluid as those situations present themselves.

Thankfully that conversation usually went very well, despite experiences, notoriety / accomplishments of those trainers who hated the technique. I think they more so hated it because of those guys who used it so much. Inter-rivalry thing I suppose. Now you will often hear the exact argument quoted nowadays by those same "notable trainers" or others about the possibility of needing to be muzzle aware of people on lower floors, so high port has been looked at a bit differently from way back when.

High port, or Sabrina with the pistol became the stigma indeed because of Charlies Angels and not just the character Sabrina but all three of them. The technique is valid and we have also used it for years, under certain situations. Again understanding the safest direction of the muzzle and ease of manipulation given the situation you find yourself in. If you don't use something and don't train it, it won't happen or will not be effective or safe. Yes, when we teach any technique exaggeration of the movement is executed until competence is achieved and it becomes fluid and less robotic-like.

I do find that just like everything else in this modern training "circuit" or the "roadshow" as I often call it, that guys jump on things and may put it to the forefront a bit too much in an attempt to be "cutting edge" or the help separate themselves or their training organizations from "the others". When in reality much of this crap has been around for a long long time and much of it is new to "those" individuals, or trainers. I will also note that I hate getting out of a normal passenger vehicle with a pistol in high port, but do use it to orient the muzzle in various directions when engaging from the vehicle. I will not call it "temple index". ;)

[Dagga Boy]

"I do find that just like everything else in this modern training "circuit" or the "roadshow" as I often call it, that guys jump on things and may put it to the forefront a bit too much in an attempt to be "cutting edge" or the help separate themselves or their training organizations from "the others". When in reality much of this crap has been around for a long long time and much of it is new to "those" individuals, or trainers. I will also note that I hate getting out of a normal passenger vehicle with a pistol in high port, but do use it to orient the muzzle in various directions when engaging from the vehicle. I will not call it "temple index"."

Its funny, I was having some conversations with some "notable trainers" recently and this was discussed. The reality is that many of us are teaching the EXACT same thing as far as what is important in the actual delivery of lethal force. We honestly know what works over the last century and a half of using pistols in a combatives role and nothing is really new. Some things will change due to "technology", and the most notable in my mind is in how far we have come with sights in the last 50 years that has changed a lot of what we do and what we are capable of.

The biggest differences come in the areas of deployment itself and some of the gun handling issues. Policing in the US is very regional, so every area will have some nuances. Then you have capabilities of the end users being dedicated or non-dedicated. The same "regional" differences exist in the military between branches and then you have vast differences in the role and capabilities and missions. Use of lethal force is vastly different and the rules governing how force is used is night and day across the board. Throw in what armed citizens are doing, and essentially, there are no "right" answers in this area. What there isn't is a lot of is critical thought and hard work in the lab. Many find it easier to simply do what somebody else is rather than doing a bunch of testing in your own lab. I get that it is hard as some don't have lab access, but it should be pretty apparent to most that something developed for some kind of team made up from within the top 1% of the military for overseas work may not be the best for a IT specialist with a CHL.

Then you have the marketing folks. When you have very little background or experience to fall back on, slick marketing and b.s. snake oil is the order of the day when you are trying to pry training dollars from people's wallets and industry support and endorsements. Much of the training and firearms industry as a whole is full of the "take this pill and you will lose 5 pounds a day" or "miracle berry found in the jungles of Brazil cures all ills"......and of course........"1 pill a day for a foot long schlong".
It is all b.s. People who fall for it are both victims of hope combined with stupid............and we have all been there at least once :eek:.

Essentially, pay attention to those with a lab. If it fits your world use it. If it doesn't try to understand why and accept that we have different worlds. Beware of those pushing things based on other folks experience that they have no contextual understanding of (go into babble of terminology, or say "SEAL's" when asked "why") . If it sounds to good to be true it is. If those pushing something have never actually used it......that may be a clue.

[Alpha Sierra]

so when you fall you go condition black? Arguing that because its a natural reaction without a dangerous tool in your hand, you will do it the same with with that tool is weird to me. how do you run with a gun bro?

Do you really not understand the point?

Let me lay it out for you then. Your temple index is no better than SUL, or anything else, if you point your gun hand down to break a fall. Conversely, if you avoid using your gun hand to try to break the fall, you won't jam your pistol into the ground no matter which way you had it pointing.

How do I run with a gun? However I want, "bro". I am untrained.

[Alpha Sierra]

Unexpectedly falling with a handgun tucked in close to the body ala SUL can result in bad things happening if there is no engaged manual safety (think Glock, Sig, revolver, etc...) and a button, zipper, toggle, piece of gear, or other item engages the trigger...
I suppose if you do SUL wrong and don't place a hand between the gun and your chest, I could see that happening. Maybe.

[DocGKR]

AS - Since it has happened several times in the real world, including with some very experienced folks, I'd say you are off-target.

[breakingtime91]

I suppose if you do SUL wrong and don't place a hand between the gun and your chest, I could see that happening. Maybe.

ok so now I'm pretty sure your a SUL kinda guy. Also your statement about untrained, i guess I do not get your point there. Also when using SUL to move you are literally flagging everything in front of you and not using one of your arms to move you faster. *pump your arm=faster leg movement*. Also no I do not get your point because I AM trained and do not go condition black like UNTRAINED people do. There is a time and place for everything, including SUL or high port, so ya.

[Alpha Sierra]

ok so now I'm pretty sure your a SUL kinda guy. Also your statement about untrained, i guess I do not get your point there. Also when using SUL to move you are literally flagging everything in front of you and not using one of your arms to move you faster. *pump your arm=faster leg movement*. Also no I do not get your point because I AM trained and do not go condition black like UNTRAINED people do. There is a time and place for everything, including SUL or high port, so ya.
......condition black, I AM trained....LOL

[breakingtime91]

......condition black, I AM trained....LOL

well if your gonna try to make a productive thread into us arguing I'm done. But yes, condition black is a real thing.



*edited to ask if its trendy to say your untrained now? :cool:

[Chuck Haggard]

I suppose if you do SUL wrong and don't place a hand between the gun and your chest, I could see that happening. Maybe.

It's far from being that simple, and your quip kind of proves you do not understand the problem.

[Steve f]

that is referred to as sabrina not temple index they require 2 hands on the gun, and it occludes vision

Hi Tam

[Tamara]

that is referred to as sabrina not temple index they require 2 hands on the gun, and it occludes vision

Hi Tam

Hi, Steve! :D

(Point Of Order: One hand is "Half Sabrina", two is "Full Sabrina". At least that's how I learned it. :o )

(PPS: I'm wondering if Scott Reitz's latest column in S.W.A.T. (https://www.swatmag.com/articles/view/the-low-ready-position) wasn't kicked off by this latest round of intertubes pig-wrestling...)

[Chuck Haggard]

IMHO Uncle Scotty does in fact know what time it is.

[Dagga Boy]

Being he was brought up.....
Scott's wife gets mad at me because I will bring this stuff up at dinner. Listening to Scotty going full rant in a high end West L.A. restaruant is beyond funny. Brett just looks at me and says "why do you do this to him". While Scott is not big on changes, he has also been witness to a lot of the good idea fairy stuff and what happens in the field with them. He also has investigated and testified at a ton of shootings where you see where fantasy ends and reality begins. Add this to thirty years at LAPD with 25 in Metro, and it makes sense to figure out that maybe he actually has a clue. We use and teach the same technique taught at Scotty's place for vehicle stuff. I would still use it today. I know for fact it works. With that said I can see where a couple of holes could get filled with other things in limited, unique circumstances.
Essentially, over the years I have added stuff that flows well with the low ready. We have found that low ready is the place where fights tend to start and hopefully end quickly if you do your part and is the fastest way to get from muzzle off to shooting. It also is a safe place for the gun with a go flow to retention when it isn't. That is what I want in a ready or a default. Everything else simply becomes a place to put a muzzle when low ready is not a go place due to some unique situation. Those unique situations are very rare for most people. For those folks who want to press the limited situation positions into defaults, well, "bless your little hearts", and good luck with that.

[Steve f]

Being he was brought up.....
Scott's wife gets mad at me because I will bring this stuff up at dinner. Listening to Scotty going full rant in a high end West L.A. restaruant is beyond funny. Brett just looks at me and says "why do you do this to him". While Scott is not big on changes, he has also been witness to a lot of the good idea fairy stuff and what happens in the field with them. He also has investigated and testified at a ton of shootings where you see where fantasy ends and reality begins. Add this to thirty years at LAPD with 25 in Metro, and it makes sense to figure out that maybe he actually has a clue. We use and teach the same technique taught at Scotty's place for vehicle stuff. I would still use it today. I know for fact it works. With that said I can see where a couple of holes could get filled with other things in limited, unique circumstances.
Essentially, over the years I have added stuff that flows well with the low ready. We have found that low ready is the place where fights tend to start and hopefully end quickly if you do your part and is the fastest way to get from muzzle off to shooting. It also is a safe place for the gun with a go flow to retention when it isn't. That is what I want in a ready or a default. Everything else simply becomes a place to put a muzzle when low ready is not a go place due to some unique situation. Those unique situations are very rare for most people. For those folks who want to press the limited situation positions into defaults, well, "bless your little hearts", and good luck with that.



this is where i tend to argue the ROEs of LEO/MIL/and the average joe citizen I have never see low ready used by a citizen in a shooting to start out(not saying it hasn't happened) its a LE thing
the few times i have seen citizens use it its been post action not pre attack where in LE it tends to be post action or some awkward low ready movement look at the recent shooting in Canada and watch the video i see the strange poopy pants low ready dance being done because it all they know...

times change so do some TTPS, and there are needs for them to change as we evolve and as bad guys do and the situations, i have a lot of respect for guys like scotty... things change with needs we see in training of septs and citizens and what they lack low ready has its place for sure as do a few others not all will agree with it i understand and accept that not a one of us is 100% right or wrong just a different view of how and where we live

[Steve f]

Hi, Steve! :D

(Point Of Order: One hand is "Half Sabrina", two is "Full Sabrina". At least that's how I learned it. :o )

(PPS: I'm wondering if Scott Reitz's latest column in S.W.A.T. (https://www.swatmag.com/articles/view/the-low-ready-position) wasn't kicked off by this latest round of intertubes pig-wrestling...)

oh I'm sure it was which is good and yes low ready is good ready position temple, up etc.. is not for that it s post action, movement, and crowds and kids under feet

[Steve f]

"I do find that just like everything else in this modern training "circuit" or the "roadshow" as I often call it, that guys jump on things and may put it to the forefront a bit too much in an attempt to be "cutting edge" or the help separate themselves or their training organizations from "the others". When in reality much of this crap has been around for a long long time and much of it is new to "those" individuals, or trainers. I will also note that I hate getting out of a normal passenger vehicle with a pistol in high port, but do use it to orient the muzzle in various directions when engaging from the vehicle. I will not call it "temple index"."

Its funny, I was having some conversations with some "notable trainers" recently and this was discussed. The reality is that many of us are teaching the EXACT same thing as far as what is important in the actual delivery of lethal force. We honestly know what works over the last century and a half of using pistols in a combatives role and nothing is really new. Some things will change due to "technology", and the most notable in my mind is in how far we have come with sights in the last 50 years that has changed a lot of what we do and what we are capable of.

The biggest differences come in the areas of deployment itself and some of the gun handling issues. Policing in the US is very regional, so every area will have some nuances. Then you have capabilities of the end users being dedicated or non-dedicated. The same "regional" differences exist in the military between branches and then you have vast differences in the role and capabilities and missions. Use of lethal force is vastly different and the rules governing how force is used is night and day across the board. Throw in what armed citizens are doing, and essentially, there are no "right" answers in this area. What there isn't is a lot of is critical thought and hard work in the lab. Many find it easier to simply do what somebody else is rather than doing a bunch of testing in your own lab. I get that it is hard as some don't have lab access, but it should be pretty apparent to most that something developed for some kind of team made up from within the top 1% of the military for overseas work may not be the best for a IT specialist with a CHL.

Then you have the marketing folks. When you have very little background or experience to fall back on, slick marketing and b.s. snake oil is the order of the day when you are trying to pry training dollars from people's wallets and industry support and endorsements. Much of the training and firearms industry as a whole is full of the "take this pill and you will lose 5 pounds a day" or "miracle berry found in the jungles of Brazil cures all ills"......and of course........"1 pill a day for a foot long schlong".
It is all b.s. People who fall for it are both victims of hope combined with stupid............and we have all been there at least once :eek:.

Essentially, pay attention to those with a lab. If it fits your world use it. If it doesn't try to understand why and accept that we have different worlds. Beware of those pushing things based on other folks experience that they have no contextual understanding of (go into babble of terminology, or say "SEAL's" when asked "why") . If it sounds to good to be true it is. If those pushing something have never actually used it......that may be a clue.


The day i try to push snake oil i will quit. I don't take lives as a joke or the officers Will or I train. The videos shown where we used and taught these TTP's have proven it over other positions. The fact we just had a had not one, but two shootings involving officers and teams we trained who used these TTP's and walked away winners--to include a high risk team you saw on the news in Texas are clear proof it works for LE. Do I bet some people are taking out of context? Yes. Do I care? Not really. Those that have used it, and trained in it, and used it in UTMs and live fire know it works.

[Chuck Haggard]

Steve, it would be awesome if you used things like punctuation and paragraphs, and maybe expressed a cogent train of thought in order to contribute something to the discussion.

[Dagga Boy]

I would contend that the low ready has been used more than we think outside LE. Personally, I have cleared my home, yard, and had a couple off duty engagements (which are pretty much like a armed citizen at that point). It simply works like many things.......it works right when done right and when it is applicable. Its been as bastardized as any thing else. The reason its more of "an LE thing" is that LE tends to deal with criminals as a regular part of their day. Most people call the police to deal with criminals, suspicious folks, weirdos, and other mopes of society. Typically, when armed citizens go to guns, it is from the draw. Got it. What many of us learned the hard way is that if I am going to have to use a pistol, having it in hand rather than having to draw is a huge advantage.....I like huge advantages and proper use of ready positions provide advantages. Improper use complicate things and create problems. Simple. If folks want to work a problem from the holster because low ready is a cop thing, super awesome. If folks want to use some sort of third eye, high position with their weapon up like high speed folks do in high speed folks places......again super awesome. It simply will not be super awesome if you are behind the curve, or have an issue with a muzzle on something that the penal code defines as an assault with a deadly weapon. Essentially, knowing how and when to use a position that puts a gun in my hand, pointed in a safe direction that isn't covering anyone that I need to justify an assault on, and I can both go right to the threat if lethal force is needed or retention if attacked.....I like it. Others expereince may be different, which is fine. Like Steve, I am in not really caring mode these days.

In regards to what Steve and Will are teaching (I'll use Temple Index if that is what they are calling it as being different from various Sabrina's). I went to Will directly because the person who explained it to me felt it was the end all be all and a sort of do-it-all position. This was FAR from what Will explained. I actually nodded with Will, and having read and seen Steve's presentation of it, I am all in and have discussed it with students as an option. Again, to use our facility (which is not the kind of place you want to give up as those who have been there understand), we can't run it live. Doesn't make it invalid at all. Now, how many are presenting it....well, let's just say I won't be an advocate for those scenarios.

I really thought about how these things get so diluted from the initial instructors to YouTube and the Internet. I think it comes down to what I mentioned before. Most of us who have actual expereince are pretty much teaching the same thing. I would imagine if someone took a class from Wayne and me, and one from Will and Steve.....90% of it would be the same thing with the only thing being different analogy's, stories to make points, and personality. The slight difference may be the emphasis on how to use something like the temple index. I think folks just focus on that 10% as being some HUGE revelation in their world, because it is the different thing with the brightest new lightbulb moment in the class. I think it is also why some of the snake oil folks add so much stuff that is different from well established "best practices". In reality, only a small percentage of that 10% may really apply and may have been worth the price of admission alone to a class, but it still ends up being the huge take-away and they begin to spread the new gospel as the end all be all without the context that the original folks who figured out how to address a specific problem had.

I really like a few aspects of the temple index, and it is already in the brain bank as a solution to a couple of problems. I am genuiniely happy that Will and Steve are seeing successes with their vehicle program. I was blessed to have gotten to spend a bunch of time within a program that was based on the expereinces of some of the best guys and girls in the world at dealing with violent armed encounters in vehicles within the United States. They are exceptional due to actual experience that most will never see. I know for a 100% fact that the stuff works based on their expereince, my own experience, and the expereince of my folks who have used the exact techniques to win some pretty dramitc encounters. Is it the end all be all......likely not. Is it a solid foundation, absolutely. I will continue to use and teach off that foundation. With that said, I would be a fool to not be taking in the experiences of Will Petty and Steve Fisher, and those they are teaching. I have a TON of respect for both as well as Matt Graham. I can now "add on" to my foundation with some new solutions to problems that are very real. This is ALL about problem solving and as long as I am solving problems then all is good. With that said.......I also know that some folks are butchering this stuff and actually creating new problems. Well....we make choices and they all come with consequences, some of which are bad.

[Steve f]

Steve, it would be awesome if you used things like punctuation and paragraphs, and maybe expressed a cogent train of thought in order to contribute something to the discussion.

I'll try, I usually do so only when i write articles.

[Steve f]

I would contend that the low ready has been used more than we think outside LE. Personally, I have cleared my home, yard, and had a couple off duty engagements (which are pretty much like a armed citizen at that point). It simply works like many things.......it works right when done right and when it is applicable. Its been as bastardized as any thing else. The reason its more of "an LE thing" is that LE tends to deal with criminals as a regular part of their day. Most people call the police to deal with criminals, suspicious folks, weirdos, and other mopes of society. Typically, when armed citizens go to guns, it is from the draw. Got it. What many of us learned the hard way is that if I am going to have to use a pistol, having it in hand rather than having to draw is a huge advantage.....I like huge advantages and proper use of ready positions provide advantages. Improper use complicate things and create problems. Simple. If folks want to work a problem from the holster because low ready is a cop thing, super awesome. If folks want to use some sort of third eye, high position with their weapon up like high speed folks do in high speed folks places......again super awesome. It simply will not be super awesome if you are behind the curve, or have an issue with a muzzle on something that the penal code defines as an assault with a deadly weapon. Essentially, knowing how and when to use a position that puts a gun in my hand, pointed in a safe direction that isn't covering anyone that I need to justify an assault on, and I can both go right to the threat if lethal force is needed or retention if attacked.....I like it. Others expereince may be different, which is fine. Like Steve, I am in not really caring mode these days.

In regards to what Steve and Will are teaching (I'll use Temple Index if that is what they are calling it as being different from various Sabrina's). I went to Will directly because the person who explained it to me felt it was the end all be all and a sort of do-it-all position. This was FAR from what Will explained. I actually nodded with Will, and having read and seen Steve's presentation of it, I am all in and have discussed it with students as an option. Again, to use our facility (which is not the kind of place you want to give up as those who have been there understand), we can't run it live. Doesn't make it invalid at all. Now, how many are presenting it....well, let's just say I won't be an advocate for those scenarios.

I really thought about how these things get so diluted from the initial instructors to YouTube and the Internet. I think it comes down to what I mentioned before. Most of us who have actual expereince are pretty much teaching the same thing. I would imagine if someone took a class from Wayne and me, and one from Will and Steve.....90% of it would be the same thing with the only thing being different analogy's, stories to make points, and personality. The slight difference may be the emphasis on how to use something like the temple index. I think folks just focus on that 10% as being some HUGE revelation in their world, because it is the different thing with the brightest new lightbulb moment in the class. I think it is also why some of the snake oil folks add so much stuff that is different from well established "best practices". In reality, only a small percentage of that 10% may really apply and may have been worth the price of admission alone to a class, but it still ends up being the huge take-away and they begin to spread the new gospel as the end all be all without the context that the original folks who figured out how to address a specific problem had.

I really like a few aspects of the temple index, and it is already in the brain bank as a solution to a couple of problems. I am genuiniely happy that Will and Steve are seeing successes with their vehicle program. I was blessed to have gotten to spend a bunch of time within a program that was based on the expereinces of some of the best guys and girls in the world at dealing with violent armed encounters in vehicles within the United States. They are exceptional due to actual experience that most will never see. I know for a 100% fact that the stuff works based on their expereince, my own experience, and the expereince of my folks who have used the exact techniques to win some pretty dramitc encounters. Is it the end all be all......likely not. Is it a solid foundation, absolutely. I will continue to use and teach off that foundation. With that said, I would be a fool to not be taking in the experiences of Will Petty and Steve Fisher, and those they are teaching. I have a TON of respect for both as well as Matt Graham. I can now "add on" to my foundation with some new solutions to problems that are very real. This is ALL about problem solving and as long as I am solving problems then all is good. With that said.......I also know that some folks are butchering this stuff and actually creating new problems. Well....we make choices and they all come with consequences, some of which are bad.


I still love you......
and respect you

Ps ill be in baytown next week

[Dagga Boy]

Dang, I was hoping you would be up in the DFW area.

It's kind of funny how some of this develops. Where I originally saw this technique and what it was used for, especially for line LE guys to address the problems with the low ready failures, I thought it was as stupid as anything I had ever seen and was in the big time, "someone is out of their lane" (and I still think it is unsafe and stupid in that role for most). Take the same technique, properly context it to one specific area and proper application and all of a sudden it is totally viable.

So Steve.......want to talk about the end all be all totally hyper extended C clamp as the end all be all with the AR....;).

[Steve f]

grab the gun, see sights, press trigger, repeat.


ill be in the DFW area on the 2nd heading to baytown then back to dew area 6th/7th let do rudys me you and will on the 2nd or after

[Dagga Boy]

grab the gun, see sights, press trigger, repeat.


ill be in the DFW area on the 2nd heading to baytown then back to dew area 6th/7th let do rudys me you and will on the 2nd or after

Perfect on all counts.

[DocGKR]

For more: http://www.lightfighter.net/topic/muzzle-up?page=1

[Dagga Boy]

The folks who chimed in on that thread are out of the top end of most of the military, L/E, Government contract units out there. It is good reading.........and I emphasize reading on that one.

[LittleLebowski]

The folks who chimed in on that thread are out of the top end of most of the military, L/E, Government contract units out there. It is good reading.........and I emphasize reading on that one.

You're so subtle with your hints :D

[Chuck Haggard]

You're so subtle with your hints :D

Subtle often doesn't work. Just sayin.

[Chuck Haggard]

I'll try, I usually do so only when i write articles.

I no doubt came across as a complete dick in my post, which was terse and hurried after three hours sleep, waiting for the coffee to brew and heading in to work.

MY bad, sorry about that.

[Steve f]

I no doubt came across as a complete dick in my post, which was terse and hurried after three hours sleep, waiting for the coffee to brew and heading in to work.

MY bad, sorry about that.



Dude not at all
i have thicker skin than that bro

[Erik]

There's some great stuff in the Lightfighter thread. Thank you posting the link.

[KevinB]

Can't believe I missed that LF thread -- I'm a born again High Ready guy - mainly as I was finally taught and explained the reasons.

[DocGKR]

Spending time with Jason Falla will do that for folks...

[Dagga Boy]

Can't believe I missed that LF thread -- I'm a born again High Ready guy - mainly as I was finally taught and explained the reasons.

Unfortunately, I have seen the results from those doing it because all the cool guys are........it's not pretty. As the folks saw in the class we ran recently found out, having the gun in the right position to avoid muzzling the wrong thing can change drastically in seconds. All of them can be done wrong, some of them have greater consequences than others when done wrong. Finding the perfect balance and knowing exactly which tool to apply at the precise moment under stress is what separates the well trained and experienced pros from the less trained and un-experienced. Unfortunately, many think that everyone is ready for this stuff and they are not, and many are using things based on what others are doing without the work and training side on proper, well thought out applications. Very few of us literally obsess over the optimal application of TTP's in the field........and YouTube is a good place to see the problems with poor application.

[hallnh727]

Mike Pannone weighs in on temple index

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2-qyGsK5XZQ

[Maple Syrup Actual]

I'm sure I'm not saying anything anyone hasn't considered already but there's really two questions here:

1) is temple index or half Sabrina or whatever a valid technique?

2) is it always the right technique?

I guess there might be a third question: does the original video display the right use of th8s technique?

I think once the questions are broken down in this manner the answers are obvious.

Of course it's a valid technique for some situations.

Of course it's not always the best choice.

The original video is pretty silly.

I don't see how anyone could argue that there are NEVER times when the safest direction to point your gun is up. You're on the top floor of an occupied building. Done.

I don't see how anyone can say it's always right. You're on the bottom floor of an occupied building. Done.

Am I going to slap my gun to my head and pirouette after every shot? Hell no. Who would? Youtube people. That's it.

I don't really understand how this became a multi-forum, multi-expert, multi-video discussion.

Sent from my SGH-I317M using Tapatalk

[Mr_White]

I'm sure I'm not saying anything anyone hasn't considered already but there's really two questions here:

1) is temple index or half Sabrina or whatever a valid technique?

2) is it always the right technique?

I guess there might be a third question: does the original video display the right use of th8s technique?

I think once the questions are broken down in this manner the answers are obvious.

Of course it's a valid technique for some situations.

Of course it's not always the best choice.

The original video is pretty silly.

I don't see how anyone could argue that there are NEVER times when the safest direction to point your gun is up. You're on the top floor of an occupied building. Done.

I don't see how anyone can say it's always right. You're on the bottom floor of an occupied building. Done.

Am I going to slap my gun to my head and pirouette after every shot? Hell no. Who would? Youtube people. That's it.

I don't really understand how this became a multi-forum, multi-expert, multi-video discussion.

Sent from my SGH-I317M using Tapatalk

That's really well stated and I completely agree with your breakdown.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Thanks, I have really cut back on my sauna drinking and I think it's helping my posts.

Sent from my SGH-I317M using Tapatalk

[Dagga Boy]

Mike Pannone weighs in on temple index

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2-qyGsK5XZQ

What he was demonstrating was not what I have seen Will or Steve teach in regards to the vehicle work.

Wargaming the "Shoulder Index"
It looked like he muzzled his arm at 4:09. If he didn't because of camera angle....it was close and it is easy to see how you could get your support arm in front of the muzzle. This could be a major issue while unbelting a seat belt, which is a major issue, and a big reason for why Will and Steve teach what they do. It would be easy to get that muzzle pointed right at the head of someone to the support side, especially with a shorter person working around a taller one. I guarantee that if I was debarking a vehicle like that and Wayne was coming up next to my car, my muzzle would be pointed at his head.

The belts, friendlies moving around your car, and friendlies in your own vehicle are very typical in the law enforcement world, which is the exact thing that Will and Steve are teaching to, the exact thing that the LE/MIL restricted Vehicle classes taught by ITTS are teaching to, and the techniques used by both (that are different, but would actually compliment each other well.....and I plan on working up a mix of the two) are meant to address. Folks outside the LE arena may have different needs, which is why places like Tactical Response exist and I guess that is who they are teaching to....or not, nor do I much care.

I can see application of what was shown by Mr. Pannone (another well established and highly respected trainer), but what he was critiquing was more of what is being taught elsewhere than by Steve, Will, Matt Graham and others. As an aside.......taking a gun from Steve Fisher or Matt Graham by a 14 year old girl is funny......and doubtful.

[Steve f]

What he was demonstrating was not what I have seen Will or Steve teach in regards to the vehicle work.

Wargaming the "Shoulder Index"
It looked like he muzzled his arm at 4:09. If he didn't because of camera angle....it was close and it is easy to see how you could get your support arm in front of the muzzle. This could be a major issue while unbelting a seat belt, which is a major issue, and a big reason for why Will and Steve teach what they do. It would be easy to get that muzzle pointed right at the head of someone to the support side, especially with a shorter person working around a taller one. I guarantee that if I was debarking a vehicle like that and Wayne was coming up next to my car, my muzzle would be pointed at his head.

The belts, friendlies moving around your car, and friendlies in your own vehicle are very typical in the law enforcement world, which is the exact thing that Will and Steve are teaching to, the exact thing that the LE/MIL restricted Vehicle classes taught by ITTS are teaching to, and the techniques used by both (that are different, but would actually compliment each other well.....and I plan on working up a mix of the two) are meant to address. Folks outside the LE arena may have different needs, which is why places like Tactical Response exist and I guess that is who they are teaching to....or not, nor do I much care.

I can see application of what was shown by Mr. Pannone (another well established and highly respected trainer), but what he was critiquing was more of what is being taught elsewhere than by Steve, Will, Matt Graham and others. As an aside.......taking a gun from Steve Fisher or Matt Graham by a 14 year old girl is funny......and doubtful.



I like Mike a lot and have drank beers with him, and i respect him highly, in this case he is off base on the technique shouldering the gun also promotes flagging of others around you easier look at the muzzle direction in the video.... sigh time to have that talk i guess

[Totem Polar]

Mike Pannone weighs in on temple index

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2-qyGsK5XZQ

Man, I don't personally see wtf that video has to do with proper use of the high break. Any video that starts off with a statement of intent to counter other unspecified internet videos strikes me as straw man-ish. OMMV, of course.

[DocGKR]

Interestingly, the video is now gone...

[Chuck Haggard]

I'm guessing Mike got a phone call.

[Dagga Boy]

I actually empathize with Mike Pannone. When I first saw some of this it was the Kyle Defoor running thing that I will not use and think is a bad idea for LEO's where I saw it being taught (if it works for SEAL's, great.....not my thing). I also had to deal with the results of the Tactical Response thing with some students who sadly were really sold a bill of goods and bought into some stupidity.
I then got some "second hand" stuff from someone who took the Will Petty/Steve Fisher stuff and justified it as a do it all technique that I just shook my head at.
Finally, I saw some stuff directly from the Vehicle CQB classes and I made a call to a mutual friend to ask Steve about it, and I had lunch with Will specifically to talk about their thinking. TOTALLY different application and use, and made perfect sense for what they are doing. They were using a technique that works to get to a goal with very few negatives. Not the same as what I use, but totally viable. I actually found it was a great "fill" for a couple of the holes in what we are using.
Often when you see something like the videos from TR or the one that started this thread, it sets off the "WTF" meter pretty hard. Personally, I want guns away from my body. Guns close to the body is bad. It is indicative of things are going wrong or a bad situation. When you have a situation where things are bad, you need to be VERY careful with what techniques are going to be used in these situations and they will come with risks. I want to be out of those positions as quickly as possible. Those who are advocating going to those types of positions as a default may be setting themselves and their students up for bad things.

[Steve f]

Mike and i have been talking,
he is re doing another video. he still doesn't care for it, i respect that i call mike a friend.

we had that conversation i respect his background and his operational experience we came to some middle ground i think lol.....
we are after the same thing just different ways of doing it we are big enough adults to discuss it and agree to disagree its the world we live in
this comes back to my talks about MIL/LEO/Citizens needs again i respect the hell out of mike and have shared tables and ranges with him.... i have no issue with the disagreement

[Chuck Haggard]

I find some of this takes some time to mentally work out, and time to play with under the right conditions, and being taught by the right person so that context is clear.

When I went to DARC for Uncle Rich's LECTC course he taught high muzzle with the carbine right from the get-go in the crawl phase when we were hitting individual/two man skills. I know my eye brow went up because my "WTFF?" meter pegged a couple of blips before settling down.

In that context, in that environment, it soon made absolutely perfect sense. Rich was kind of a master at that lesson, as well as others throughout the week, in that he didn't try to sell it, he demo'd it, had us try a few reps, then moved on. But it quickly became apparent that he didn't need to sell that TTP, as the line in 'Heat' went "this shit sells itself".

[Chuck Haggard]

Had an on-line conversation with Mike Pannone. We've talked at length before about a number of subjects, IMHO he's a good dude.

He asked me to clarify that he pulled the video on his own as he wasn't happy with the ability via a short video to get his point across. TTPs can often be simple in appearance, but complex in what context they are applied.

He advised is he is working on a video that he thinks will get the point across more effectively than that first attempt.

[Steve f]

Had an on-line conversation with Mike Pannone. We've talked at length before about a number of subjects, IMHO he's a good dude.

He asked me to clarify that he pulled the video on his own as he wasn't happy with the ability via a short video to get his point across. TTPs can often be simple in appearance, but complex in what context they are applied.

He advised is he is working on a video that he thinks will get the point across more effectively than that first attempt.


yes me and mike had that talk he is a good dude

[KevinB]

I think one needs to have multiple options for carry/indexing. I prefer an arrested/compressed high ready with the pistol - and honestly like to holster before I run if I can.

Depending what you are doing you may need to alter your stance and positioning -- I saw way to many folks at the LVMPD SWAT class last week muzzle folks as they did not want to alter their position. The fact is depending on your equipment, those of other with you, and the layout of the situation your in, you may need to use high or low, or directly present the weapon.

I do not buy into the I'm on the ground floor, I will do low ready though - high ready came out for a reason, and in many positions it is superior to low ready.

[ToddG]

I do not buy into the I'm on the ground floor, I will do low ready though - high ready came out for a reason, and in many positions it is superior to low ready.

Agreed. I live in a 3-story town house. When I'm on the middle floor, where am I supposed to point my gun? Another dimension?

I liken ready positions to guns. On the one hand, most folks would agree that no single gun can accomplish everything. On the other, most folks on this forum seem to understand that you don't want to deal with a summer gun, a winter gun, a Tuesday gun, a Friday gun, a going-to-the-movies gun, a going-to-the-supermarket gun, etc. Just because you cannot reduce everything to a single gun 24/365 doesn't mean you can't try to minimize the number of things you need to be familiar with, practice with, and excel at.

There is no one perfect ready position for every possible situation and location. But some have more functionality than others. People seem to forget, but a lot of ready position decisions years ago were dictated not by what might work best but by the fact that mil/SWAT teams were practicing in live fire shoot houses with real live human beings on catwalks above them. Seeing guys run through a house using high ready when you're on that catwalk is uncomfortable. BTDT. I do find it funny when people who make their living bragging about being from Unit XYZ insist on teaching low ready for years and years after Unit XYZ has changed to a high compressed ready. :cool:

To continue on what Kevin said, high compressed ready came along for a reason. Does it have disadvantages? Sure. So does every other ready position. Knowing when to change to something else is important, but it works pretty well as a most-of-the-time option.

[Tamara]

When I'm on the middle floor, where am I supposed to point my gun? Another dimension?

Do you even tesseract, bro? :D