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jetfire
07-18-2011, 02:25 PM
I have a few shooters that I work with locally that are IDPA Sharpshooter/Expert level guys who want to make a breakthrough, and for a lot of them I'm having trouble explaining the concept of "see what you need to see". I know and understand it to mean that your focus is on what it needs to be, whether that's the front sight for a tight shot, the magwell during a reload (or the target depending on how you feel about looking at the gun), as well as knowing when you don't need to use the front sight or can afford to take a far more rough sight picture. But it's kind of a zen concept, and I'll admit I didn't really understand it myself until recently.

So how can I de-zenify the concept of "see what you need to see" so intermediate level shooters can really grok it?

beltjones
07-18-2011, 03:25 PM
I have a few shooters that I work with locally that are IDPA Sharpshooter/Expert level guys who want to make a breakthrough, and for a lot of them I'm having trouble explaining the concept of "see what you need to see". I know and understand it to mean that your focus is on what it needs to be, whether that's the front sight for a tight shot, the magwell during a reload (or the target depending on how you feel about looking at the gun), as well as knowing when you don't need to use the front sight or can afford to take a far more rough sight picture. But it's kind of a zen concept, and I'll admit I didn't really understand it myself until recently.

So how can I de-zenify the concept of "see what you need to see" so intermediate level shooters can really grok it?

I think part of the point is making them elevate their performance to the level where they just "get it." I don't think changing the semantics or the verbiage will short cut the process.

One of the things that helped me was taking a class with Manny Bragg. He would stand next to me while I ran a drill, and after every rep he would ask me, "What did you see?" It really made me pay attention to what I could possibly see, and with each subsequent run I would try to see more and more. When I tried to slow down to make it easier to "see" everything, he made sure I knew I was doing so. Then he would hit me with questions like, "Did you slow down because you needed to in order to make that shot, or could you have still made that shot by seeing less?"

That kind of requires the shooter to step up his "attention" game. The result is a big "aha" moment where one just "gets" the whole zen aspect of seeing what you need to see.

grimel
07-18-2011, 05:15 PM
I hate see what you need to see. It is an irksome phrase. It demands a zen answer. How about go as fast as you can while seeing an adequate sight picture to achieve the hits required?

Have them shoot the box. Don't know what everyone else calls it, but, it usually works to open the eyes. Have them SIT and use a bagged rest at 5-7 yds. Start with a perfect sight picture shot. Then take shots with the front sight to the extreme left top of the rear, extreme top right, extreme bottom left, and extreme bottom right. Repeat at 3yds. The resulting boxes SHOULD give them a visual of just how course their sight picture can be and get solid hits. Obviously, the closer the less refined the picture needs to be.

Mr_White
07-18-2011, 05:53 PM
The part I find hardest is to be mentally disciplined enough to only shoot when I actually have seen what I need to see, and not before. I think that is referred to as visual patience. It's one thing to understand the seeing what you need to see concept, but another to actually do it, especially on every shot.

m91196
07-18-2011, 05:59 PM
I have a few shooters that I work with locally that are IDPA Sharpshooter/Expert level guys who want to make a breakthrough, and for a lot of them I'm having trouble explaining the concept of "see what you need to see". I know and understand it to mean that your focus is on what it needs to be, whether that's the front sight for a tight shot, the magwell during a reload (or the target depending on how you feel about looking at the gun), as well as knowing when you don't need to use the front sight or can afford to take a far more rough sight picture. But it's kind of a zen concept, and I'll admit I didn't really understand it myself until recently.

So how can I de-zenify the concept of "see what you need to see" so intermediate level shooters can really grok it?

Tell me how to make sure I "see it" every time.

Some days the front site is there and I can drive it like I stole it.

Other days not so much.

JHC
07-18-2011, 07:52 PM
As long as the shooter has their trigger press fairly decent, I have illustrated this phrase; (one that I think is absolutely superb but then I'm a long time big fan of Zen philosophy in general) is to let them see for themselves that at 5-7 yards, they only need to see the front sight in the center of a high prob target to get hits in it. Then next, to get hit that way fast. Pushing them to do this faster than they think they are ready to go yet seems to drive it home well.

Move that same target out to 10 yards and they quickly see they need more alignment care already at that modest increase in distance.

My $0.02

jetfire
07-18-2011, 08:09 PM
Tell me how to make sure I "see it" every time.

Some days the front site is there and I can drive it like I stole it.

Other days not so much.

If I could tell you that, I'd have beaten Dave Sevigny this weekend at the ProAm. I did not beat Dave.

ford.304
07-19-2011, 06:49 AM
One thing I have read and practiced is to make sure that people are paying attention to what they are seeing. You can't try to change what you are doing without *noticing* what you're doing. So ask after a string - what did you see? What were you looking at? At each step, did you need to see it?

ToddG
07-19-2011, 07:41 AM
The concept isn't that complicated: don't press the trigger unless you have an adequate visual reference. That may be "I see the target is in front of me" for very close range point shooting or "the top edge of my front sight is perfectly in line with the top edge of my rear sight; there is exactly the same amount of light on either side of my front blade; and, the top edge of my front sight is bisecting the point on the target where I want the bullet to go." Or it could be anywhere in between. That's the point.

The best way to learn it, in my experience, is to work on different size/distance targets at speed. Learn to call shots (see the front sight lift every time) and push yourself to get the fastest hits possible on each target. If you're doing it right, pretty quickly you realize that it takes more time to get guaranteed hits on a 3x5 at 10yd than it does an A-zone at 5yd.

The biggest impediment is that many people don't really pay as much attention to the front sight as they think they do. Folks who can "shoot great out to 7yd then beyond that everything gets horrible" are almost always point shooting and just don't realize it.

TCinVA
07-19-2011, 10:13 AM
My understanding of "need to see" changed significantly in the first AFHF class I attended when I started making shots with a sight picture that was imperfect and started making hits. Learning that there can be some slop in the sight picture while still hitting the target you're assigned is one thing...actually integrating that into your mental calculation when lining up a shot, however, takes practice. I knew about the concept long before I ever stepped into AFHF, but it wasn't until I was actually doing one of the drills on day 2 of AFHF that I realized I was still looking for the "perfect" sight picture. In other words, I was making no practical use of that knowledge. Once I figured that out and started putting the front sight post somewhere on the target zone and largely ignoring the rear sight I started improving considerably.

I spend time in range sessions working on how much slop I can have in my sights and still hit targets ranging from an 8.5x11 sheet of paper to a 1" square at various distances. My goal with that is to try and give my brain enough of a catalog of visual input to be able to judge quickly what I need to do on the sights to make a hit on a particular target when I'm placed under some level of stress like a timer or another shooter to beat. Since beginning that process I've increased the speed at which I can judge a sight picture to be good enough to make the hit.

When I miss it's generally because I'm either ignoring my sights (still tend to do that a lot once the buzzer goes off) or because I screw up the trigger control bit, either through anticipation or by getting on the trigger too fast as the gun recoils and pushing a shot high.

LOKNLOD
07-19-2011, 12:01 PM
The biggest impediment is that many people don't really pay as much attention to the front sight as they think they do. Folks who can "shoot great out to 7yd then beyond that everything gets horrible" are almost always point shooting and just don't realize it.

My biggest takeaway from this last AFHF was actually starting to truly maintain visual contact with the sights especially exactly at the point the shot breaks.Previously after a run at a USPSA match (very infrequently attended) I would usually get to the end of the stage and did not remember seeing my sights during the stage. I always knew I should be using my sights, and I thought I was using them. Until I really did start using them, I never realized just how badly I was under-utilizing those stupid little funny colored expensive dots on the top of the slide. But right now I can still visualize sight pictures – especially during press outs -- during drills from AFHF nearly a month ago. Clear as a bell. That is a HUGE breakthrough for me, I think.

DonovanM
07-19-2011, 12:52 PM
Just like a picture is worth a thousand words, I think it would be extremely difficult to teach someone this through telling alone. It takes range time and a chunk of ammo with someone who knows what they're doing coaching you to really get it IMO. Hell, I'd say an experience is worth a thousand pictures. Right after taking a class from Bruce Gray & Co, I shot my first USPSA match, and I was finding "adequate" sight pictures to get hits and making up shots on steel I missed way before I ever realized what was happening consciously, and I think that's the gist of what we're getting at here.

Odin Bravo One
07-19-2011, 01:18 PM
I don't really "teach" anyone shooting these days. But I take my GF and some less experienced shooters to the range from time to time, and have found the best method for me to explain the "See what you need to see" phenomenon is setting them up for self learning.

I like to use small, low probability targets to start. I draw the attention to proper execution of the fundamentals, clear front sight, proper grip, proper trigger press, follow through, etc. (this of course is assuming we have an understanding of these fundamentals and can apply them.......if not, we are not at "See what you need to see")

Then I switch to large, high probablity targets, at close range and work on shooting faster. Faster. As fast you as can physically get the gun out and shoot, and hit the target. Getting them to understand that it just needs to be touching the target zone, and where in the target zone it touches is completely irrelevant, and not to be worried about can be tough.

Once we do that, we shoot the box drill, so we see what our sights look like when not perfectly aligned, and the worst case scenario assuming we did our part with the trigger press, and how the sight alignment is trivial compared to proper trigger manipulation. The only thing I don't like about this drill is if the trigger press is not proper and consistently repeatable, it can defeat the entire purpose of the drill, and the shooter gets virtually nothing out of it.

Then I move onto an array of low probablity targets, transitioning to high probability targets, and back and forth, etc. I vary it up, and coach/critique each iteration, as well as ask what they saw, when, etc. This is usually where the light comes on. Going from the first shot low prob. target to the high prob target, most often I hear "I didn't look at my front sight at the big one". Then we discuss "Seeing what we need to see", and work from there. I like to let them see it, and experience it first, then we talk about it. That way debrief/critique points for taking too long for a particular shot can be summed up with a phrase they understand and can comprehend instead of a riddle that makes them feel like a dumbass because they don't "get it".

But that's me.

beltjones
07-19-2011, 03:53 PM
With the drills that are posted I think a lot of the emphasis of building sub-conscious skills is lost. One will never get from SS/EX to Master if one has to consciously think about how much sight picture is required.

A good drill is to set up two targets, one really close (5 yards-ish) and one farther away (15 yards). Take turns transitioning between the two targets, shooting each with two rounds. Ideally your speed should go way up when transitioning to the close target from the far one, and vice versa. Hits should be examined to make sure they impacted where the shooter called them, and as always the shooter should be pushing the envelope of what is an acceptable sight picture at those ranges.

A key here is that it's ok to miss - if you called the miss and if you learned something from it. If you're not pushing yourself to the failure point on a drill like this, you won't train your subconscious to learn to see what it needs to see.