Tactics at car stop

[Wondering Beard]

Caveat: I'm not a police officer, I've never been in LE and never have had a job that entailed putting my life on the line.

I just came across this old video of a shooting during a car stop: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqTLwm35bF4

I think it would be of great interest to us all to discuss the tactics involved in that sort of a situation. I don't mean in the sense of 'the trooper should have done X or Y', I have no idea what that trooper's rules allow him to do or not do nor what was in his mind as the situtation unfolded, but rather for the LEO's here to tell us about what their experiences, knowledge and policies inform and influence their tactics for that sort of situation and how and if there is anything applicable to the rest of us (road rage incidents could look very similar I imagine).

The only thing I seek through a discussion here is to advance our knowledge of tactics.

If my asking this in any way breaks the rules here, please don't hesitate to delete this post.

[KeeFus]

Suspect drove farther down the road and died, I believe. He had been hit during the gun battle...and his kids were in the car.

Suspect was bent on doing harm, you could see that his mindset was different when he seemed to be at "parade rest" and then refused to get back in the car. Video does not show if officer had his weapon drawn or if it was in the holster...so, for me, there are a lot of unknowns.

I think the officer gave proper commands...I think the suspect was trying to get the officer from behind the door, which appeared to fail...and led to him charging/assaulting the officer.


Did that answer your question?

[41magfan]

I find it difficult to discuss this incident without talking tactics - but that's just me.

The COP should have had all his talking done before initiating the stop - it's difficult sometimes to assess what's going on with the distraction of talking on the radio. It tends to put you behind the curve making is necessary to "catch-up" from a mental and tactical standpoint.

Drivers that stop and exit quickly should always be a warning - it doesn't make it a do or die indicator, it just changes the dynamics when the driver immediately has unrestricted capabilities to move.

Non-compliance should ALWAYS ratchet up your response trigger a notch or two - your gun should probably be in your hand, not your holster when you can't see the other guy's hands.

Non-compliance with undirected movement towards you is a display of aggressiveness - stop talking and do something.

Just a few thoughts.

[Chuck Haggard]

Jumping out of the car coming back at me like that means you get to see my muzzle. Frankly I would have likely fired sooner than this trooper, the signs were there to reasonably believe dude was carrying a handgun at the strong side hip, and his body language was all kinds of hostile.

[Wondering Beard]

Did that answer your question?

In part it does.

I don't want to second guess the trooper since as you point out, except for his voice we can't know at all what he did or didn't do. My desire was to start a discussion about what to tactically do about this sort of situation in a more generalized sense, not necessarily this particular incident.

My reflex upon seeing the guy come that fast out of his car and keep his hands hidden would have been to have my own gun out and pointed at him and get myself behind some sort of cover but the moment he started moving towards me and still not showing me a weapon, I would have been unsure about what to do.

LEOs have a lot more experience and training with this sort of situation that I ever will have and I am genuinely interested in what various tactical solutions, or partial solutions, to this type of problem exist. At the same time, LEOs may have pretty rigid policies when it comes to this type of problem that non cops perhaps don't have (if the problem is a road rage one rather than a stop for example) and I don't know if it could or does make a difference.

I'm not really looking for a specific answer, just more of a discussion of tactics that we could all learn from.

[41magfan]

One of the obvious distinctions between COPS and civilians is the dynamic of retreat. While it often makes sense to tactically retreat, COPS don’t have the luxury of avoidance per se which should always be Tactic #1 for a civilian when possible.

In this particular incident, the close proximity of the players made getting back in the car and backing up a poor plan, so what you’re left with is putting the car between you and the threat until the situation either escalates or de-escalates with regard to using DF.

[secondstoryguy]

This is a very tough scenario with no perfect solution. I've gamed it in my head many times and bounced it off many of the local trainers. I've also run it with sims. The "solution" seems to be to draw your weapon and possibly retreat slightly as he approaches giving him verbal commands. After that it's just a judgement call...with some pretty big what ifs. Once he begins to produce whatever he has behind his back you have an extremely narrow time window to decide to shoot...it happens to fast to ID what they have in their hand.

[KeeFus]

This is a very tough scenario with no perfect solution. I've gamed it in my head many times and bounced it off many of the local trainers. I've also run it with sims. The "solution" seems to be to draw your weapon and possibly retreat slightly as he approaches giving him verbal commands. After that it's just a judgement call...with some pretty big what ifs. Once he begins to produce whatever he has behind his back you have an extremely narrow time window to decide to shoot...it happens to fast to ID what they have in their hand.

And that's just it. I can not tell you how many times in BLET or in sim training or using the PRISm that someone gets smoked because they had a wallet behind their back...same holds true if its a gun and the officer thought it was another object. However, in the heat of the moment we have to rely on our training and what we perceive as threats in a second, which seems like an eternity sometimes. Do folks with inanimate objects (like cell phones) get shot sometimes? Yeap. Doesn't make it any easier on the officer(s) involved and then you get the "OMG! the pooleece just shot him cause he had a cell phone" drama.

Look at this video and think what anyone could have done differently.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCHLHh9Hrj8

[jnc36rcpd]

You never really know what is in a suspect's head when he does something like that. Some are suicidal. Others may hope that brandishing what appears to be a weapon will cause officers to take cover and allow their escape. I think still others do it because they want to scare the police and fell, because of entertainment and news media, that we won't fire because they haven't fired a weapon. I suspect the riverman taking them across the Styx lloks at them and says, "You really should have read Graham v. Conner".

[wilco423]

It was my understanding that officers in that jurisdiction were/are very limited in what they can legally make an individual do on a car stop, at least on initial contact. I could be wrong in that, but it does explain a little bit of the initial contact. Certainly, after he the BG begins closing distance on the officer, the threat level goes way up and I have drawn, or at least begun to, in sort-of-similar situations.

If you watch the BG's gun as he raises it towards vertical at the front of the squad, you can see that he inadvertently ejects the magazine, so he only fires one more round at the officer as he charges down the passenger side of the squad. He may well have been successful in killing the cop if he had multiple rounds to fire. He then stoops down to retrieve it after being shot by the officer and retreating.


Once he begins to produce whatever he has behind his back you have an extremely narrow time window to decide to shoot...it happens to fast to ID what they have in their hand.
Absolutely. In our sims training, rapid lateral movement on the cop's part has worked to buy an extra second or so to evaluate and get in the fight. Of course, terrain (like the shoulder of a busy freeway) may limit your ability to do so.

[Chuck Haggard]

With that kind of attack waiting to see what's in dude's hand means you get to watch the bullets come out, there is no possible human way to beat them to the shot at that point, hence why it might be reasonable to start shooting before a gun is produced by the bad guy/potential bad guy.

http://www.forcescience.org/articles/tempestudy.pdf

[rathos]

this shooting happened not to far from me. The trooper was a bit hesitant to shoot due to kids in the car. it in part is what got him shot. The suspect did die a short ways down the road.