Surefire suppressor discussion

[Unobtanium]

So of the discrepancies noted regarding said tail........will they endure 7,000 rounds? I only ask because I currently have an AR bolt coming up on 50k, the tail is split, a crack at the bolt lug, and running on two gas rings.......gun still works fine. 7k being the service life of an AR bolt in a 10" gun, seems we are at what??? 9 times it's service life? Why would I give two kittens through a rolling donut if the "finish" or "machining" could have been better? Seems to me it is just fine.


I also see such things as zero shifts when suppressor is attached. Seems to me that if the gun shoots well without the suppressor, then doesn't when the suppressor is attached.....it "might" not be the gun that has the issue. Then again, I could be mistaken.
I got a 4 moa shift one one Noveske and an 8 moa shift on the other. On my daniel defense the shift is 2 moa or less. Same can on all 3. Sent the 8 moa shifting upper to Garin Lee and he ran every combo of mount or break or can they could on it. All shifted badly. Imo, with surefire products, it's probably the host.

[Odin Bravo One]

I got a 4 moa shift one one Noveske and an 8 moa shift on the other. On my daniel defense the shift is 2 moa or less. Same can on all 3. Sent the 8 moa shifting upper to Garin Lee and he ran every combo of mount or break or can they could on it. All shifted badly. Imo, with surefire products, it's probably the host.

IN my limited experience shooting suppressed weapons..........it's probably the suppressor.

[Unobtanium]

IN my limited experience shooting suppressed weapons..........it's probably the suppressor.

In my experience with this suppressor, it was not. That Noveske shifted 4. My other Noveske shifted 8. My daniel defense was less than 2 moa shift. Surefire test fired my suppressor again as well and got well under 1 moa shift.

[LittleLebowski]

This isn't the first time I've heard about SF suppressor issues at the organization level.

[Unobtanium]

The thread is about which AR you recommend to folks. Molon correctly pointed out that it helps to know what the end user wants to do with the rifle. Some dudes started pissing on certain brands because of (1) issues they have with industry "personalities" and/or (2) nit-picky fit and finish issues. We're talking about AR15's, not exhibition grade shotguns. What is takes to make one work reliably is pretty simple and well known by a lot of folks. There are also a lot of folks who either don't know what it takes to make one run and/or have some other agenda that makes them push a different (usually inferior) product. At the end of the day, it's all a game of odds, so let's throw out the outliers (good and bad) and focus on rifles that do the job when upon to. The best way to tell that statistically (without going and firing them) is to identify failures and then do things to correct those. Magically, Stoner (initially) and the US military (for the last 5 decades) have pretty much done that for us. Yet, people still cannot appropriately size gas ports, choose materials, or torque and stake things as they should be.

Once you reach that point (and not before) you can MAYBE concern yourself with suppressor shift, sloppy selectors and carbon-encrusted bolt tails.
This thread reminds me of a recent conversation I had with the manager of the shop where I do part-time work. He came to me all excited about some new Otis-branded AR15 bolt cleaning tool and asked what I thought. I told him I thought it was an unnecessary gadget and not worth stocking. He got a little huffy and asked me, "Well how do you clean the carbon off of your AR15 bolts?" I answered, "I don't, it's an unnecessary waste of time." He looked at me like I was crazy and ordered some anyway. Oh well. I'm sure they'll sell.

Unobtanium, how do the rifles that had crazy suppressor shift shoot without the suppressor mounted? Same mounts? Pinned/welded or threaded? Have you tried a different can on these rifles? Yes, I have tried it on 3 rifles so far. They shot well without the suppressor.
Despite any of the above answers, a close friend who does these things for a living told me suppressor shift is a non-issue. If what you're doing really requires that much precision, you should have all your dope collected using the can anyway...makes sense to me. I think 7-8 MOA shift on a 10.5" gun is an issue. a few MOA, no. 7-8? Yes.

[Unobtanium]

Didn't get it............

Short answer...........design flaw.

Same one I pointed out years ago to the Sure-Fire engineers. The lambskin condom framed on the wall means fuck all to me when I have seen it happen............had it happen on a few occasions...........DURING THE INITIAL TESTING WITH THE ENGINEERS PRESENT!!!

Under what circumstances? I have simply never heard of it happening. When was this? (what year suppressors)? You make it sound like it was a while back. Surefire changed mounts sometime around 2012 or so. Was it this newer style mount, or the one where the pawl on the suppressor engaged the teeth on the mount?

[Odin Bravo One]

Last trip, so 2 weeks ago.

And the one before.

Also one at another block of training simultaneously.

Year of suppressor.....2014. BNIB.

There have never been teeth on the SF suppressors in the inventory, as we didnt start seeing them until last year. And only on precision rifles. Those ear marked for M4's and Mk18's have been pulled from the inventory, and KAC QD 1991 technology pulled out of mothball as an interim..........

[ASH556]

Last trip, so 2 weeks ago.

And the one before.

Also one at another block of training simultaneously.

Year of suppressor.....2014. BNIB.

There have never been teeth on the SF suppressors in the inventory, as we didnt start seeing them until last year. And only on precision rifles. Those ear marked for M4's and Mk18's have been pulled from the inventory, and KAC QD 1991 technology pulled out of mothball as an interim..........

...And it's all John Noveske's fault. (cryptic, huh? ;))

[Odin Bravo One]

Could be..........i have 9.......and DD, and LaRue, and BCM...........don't have those issues.

[ASH556]

Could be..........i have 9.......and DD, and LaRue, and BCM...........don't have those issues.

I wasn't knocking Noveske (r.i.p.). Just a little humor. The story I heard from they guys that were there was that AAC showed up to the suppressor test day and after installing their mount on the 10.3" MK18, the can bottomed out on the rail. All this because Kevin (AAC) and John (Noveske) were friends and Noveske's MK18 was 10.5". They designed the mount to work with a 10.5", not a 10.3" and were immediately disqualified.

And so, if it weren't for Noveske and his 10.5" MK18, AAC would have won the contract, Sean and his guys wouldn't be launching SF suppressors downrange, and Unobtanium would probably not own a SF can because it wouldn't have been the latest, cool, SOCOM thing.

:cool:

[Unobtanium]

Last trip, so 2 weeks ago.

And the one before.

Also one at another block of training simultaneously.

Year of suppressor.....2014. BNIB.

There have never been teeth on the SF suppressors in the inventory, as we didnt start seeing them until last year. And only on precision rifles. Those ear marked for M4's and Mk18's have been pulled from the inventory, and KAC QD 1991 technology pulled out of mothball as an interim..........

You had a new socom suppressor fly off? Those have teeth on them. I'm rather confused.

Eta: pm received.

[Unobtanium]

I put a few hundred rounds through a few of my sf cans last week.

Unsuppressed cold barrel to suppressed I got about a 3 moa shift to 6 o clock. Between surefire cans on the same gun I got about a 1 moa to 1.5 moa shift. This is m193 at 50 yards shooting off the mag as a monopod. Group size wasn't any different from what I could tell suppressed to unsuppressed. I spoke to Garin Lee and got more info on the "cans flying off" deal. It's going to be a "he said she said" deal though, and I doubt it ends well, so I'd just rather not.

[Unobtanium]

If you feel the need to close with "so I'd just rather not.", it's probably prudent to just not post anything since appending that to your statement doesn't "un-say" it.
Fair enough. According to surefire, the socom suppressor lock ring can be tightened with the suppressor not fully locked / indexed onto the mount. This can result in it feeling snug when the operator pulls forward on it, but when fired, it can and will come off and head downrange.

[ASH556]

I was out zeroing some rifles yesterday and decided to test the whole "suppressor shift" thing for my setup. 10.3" Daniel Defense factory SBR (MK18). The can is an older AAC M4-2000 using a 51-tooth Blackout Flashhider mount. The setup exhibits the whole "in-between teeth click wobble" thing. Procedure was prone in the bed of my truck, target at 100 yds, fire 5 rounds without the suppressor, screw the suppressor on, fire 5 more rounds using the same POA. I borrowed the VX-R Patrol 3-9 off my M&P 10 for the test.

As you can see, the rifle exhibits negligible shift; roughly 1" in the straight downward direction (the two rounds to the right with slash marks are from rough zeroing the optic to the rifle):

http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab104/ASH556/6039ECD0-0508-4205-9C39-BDCB6021BE6E.jpg
http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab104/ASH556/AFAFB8BE-C360-42F8-83B2-018F88F9037F.jpg

[Clusterfrack]

Very interesting discussion. My pre-Socom Mini has no windage shift, and the following elevation shifts:

BCM 18" SS410: -1.4 mil
LMT Mk 18: -1 moa
BCM 11.5" SS410: 0 shift

[rob_s]

On the subject of shift. It seems to me to be dependent on a variety of factors.

http://tacticalyellowvisor.net/8301/39371.html

[Lomshek]

According to surefire, the socom suppressor lock ring can be tightened with the suppressor not fully locked / indexed onto the mount. This can result in it feeling snug when the operator pulls forward on it, but when fired, it can and will come off and head downrange.

That sure sounds like a less than ideal mounting system. A false positive lock that lets go when fired!

[Unobtanium]

That sure sounds like a less than ideal mounting system. A false positive lock that lets go when fired!

Never been a problem here. I can insert a magazine backwards and it still fits in the mag well...again...not a problem I've had.

[El Cid]

I had some significant shift with my legacy 556 can. Garin offered to look at the upper and can to troubleshoot it at SF's facility and I'm hoping this year to take him up on that. Showed the pics to Defoor and he said it's completely normal for any can to do that. I expect the answer will be to just decide if I want to be zeroed with it or without it.

Below are pics. All shot at 100yds. Lilja 16" patrolman (heavy) bbl with carbine gas and 1/8 twist. Optic was a 1-6 set to 6x. Each group is 10rds.

Aiming point was the orange bullseye sticker for both. Southwest Ammo 77gr.
http://i828.photobucket.com/albums/zz209/El_CidAF_ResQ/photo-45.jpg

Aiming point was the black bullseye for one and the small orange sticker for the other. Asym ammo but I can't recall if it was 77 or 70gr.
http://i828.photobucket.com/albums/zz209/El_CidAF_ResQ/photo-44.jpg

[Unobtanium]

I had some significant shift with my legacy 556 can. Garin offered to look at the upper and can to troubleshoot it at SF's facility and I'm hoping this year to take him up on that. Showed the pics to Defoor and he said it's completely normal for any can to do that. I expect the answer will be to just decide if I want to be zeroed with it or without it.

Below are pics. All shot at 100yds. Lilja 16" patrolman (heavy) bbl with carbine gas and 1/8 twist. Optic was a 1-6 set to 6x. Each group is 10rds.

Aiming point was the orange bullseye sticker for both. Southwest Ammo 77gr.
http://i828.photobucket.com/albums/zz209/El_CidAF_ResQ/photo-45.jpg

Aiming point was the black bullseye for one and the small orange sticker for the other. Asym ammo but I can't recall if it was 77 or 70gr.
http://i828.photobucket.com/albums/zz209/El_CidAF_ResQ/photo-44.jpg

That is about a 3-3.5 MOA POI shift, and I consider that to be pretty normal for a 16" barrel and a fullsize can.

Also, I would note that your "issue" is likely the weapon. I have shot my SF legacy 5.56's on multiple rifles (I have 2 of the cans), and on the same rifle. On the same rifle, I get about a 1-2 MOA shift from can-to-can. On my 10.5" Noveske, I got about 7MOA shift straight down. On my 14.5" Noveske, I got a 4 MOA shift down. On my 16" Daniel Defense, I get very minimal shift. About 2-3 MOA. (all using the same can)

Lots of factors, but the less weight you hang out there, the better, and so I have gone to mini cans.

[Chucky]

Okay I am the surefire guy and I have some info that might help. We have seen a lot of issues with Noveske barrels as of late. Last time I checked we had 10 or so that the muzzle threads were not concentric to the bore. You wouldn't notice this until you ran a bore alignment rod down the barrel and suppressor. On almost all of my rifles I have a 1MOA shift or less. I have never seen or heard of one of our suppressors launch off a rifle without it not being installed properly. The lockring when tightened and installed properly cams behind the adapter itself. In order for it to shoot off the lockring would have to shear off completely, t or the tab break off that keeps the lockring tight and then the lockring spin around. If an end user has a problem with their suppressors they can reach out to me directly. cvlasek@surefire.com. I handle military sales.

[Dagga Boy]

I haven't really paid attention to this thread, but I have thousands upon thousands of rounds through various Surefire cans. I am (was?) an editor for the magazine and also work in the industry and tend to do a bunch of demo work with the Surefire mil and LE guys. The one thing they tend to be consistent on with factory guns (typical LE issue guns) is very little if any zero shift. I have never seen a locked one launch, even when some terrible low bid agency ammo lost a jacket and hit the front of the can.
While there are cans I have seen that are quieter or have other positives, the one consistent from the Surefire stuff is repeatable performance with very minimal zero shift, and even when switched to various platforms. It is why they tend to be very well liked and used extensively by military and LE units who are often using stock armory rifles.

For what its worth, I have a lot of time on the old legacy can as I bought one and had it shipped to my agency in SoCal (it is still there) when they came out. I have never seen any more than less than a one MOA shift. This also included numerous uses of the same suppressor on many different guns and it has been subjected to endurance testing as well with no issues.

[Sensei]

I'm curious to hear about Surefire's new SOCOM-2 line of suppressors that are expected to hit shelves any day now...well, it's Surefure so any decade now.

http://www.surefire.com/tactical-equipment/sound-suppressors/socom-2-suppressors.html

Nobody has been able to explain how these will be more rugged or quiet than the original RC SOCOM.

[Unobtanium]

I'm curious to hear about Surefire's new SOCOM-2 line of suppressors that are expected to hit shelves any day now...well, it's Surefure so any decade now.

http://www.surefire.com/tactical-equipment/sound-suppressors/socom-2-suppressors.html

Nobody has been able to explain how these will be more rugged or quiet than the original RC SOCOM.

They use a different welding process (200% stronger, cooler (less core shift to struggle to account for), etc.) and the baffles are slightly tweaked, although I am not sure how. They are 1-2dB quieter and have a touch less back pressure, as I understand.

[Sensei]

Thanks. Any word on when they will hit the shelves?

Perhaps the most common rub against SF is they are not as quiet as the competition (likely an underserved reputation). I don't think that blowback or durability were ever issues. So, I'm interested to hear how they stack up against their predecessor and competition.