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SouthNarc
07-16-2011, 05:07 PM
Guys I'd like to get some answers to two very specific questions, understanding of course that the answers are subjective.

#1. At 5 yards what do you consider the maximum amount of time required to hit a 3x5 card from an unholstered compressed position with a press-out? Answers should be termed in time. .75......85....25...,.so on and so forth.

#2. At 5 yards what size target zone do you consider to be acceptable accuracy when shooting as fast as you can at the torso? In other words a six inch circle, a standard "A" zone, a 3 inch inverted triangle? When you look at a torso target after a string of extremely rapid fire what makes you say to yourself "Yeah...I started losing it with this shot and this one down here".

I'm asking these questions as part of constructing some standards. I'm talking about drills, not tactics or the chaos of a real fight.

Thanks!

David Armstrong
07-16-2011, 05:20 PM
My personal standard is "keep everything on a standard paper plate" grouping at full speed.

Prdator
07-16-2011, 06:15 PM
Guys I'd like to get some answers to two very specific questions, understanding of course that the answers are subjective.

#1. At 5 yards what do you consider the maximum amount of time required to hit a 3x5 card from an unholstered compressed position with a press-out? Answers should be termed in time. .75......85....25...,.so on and so forth.

#2. At 5 yards what size target zone do you consider to be acceptable accuracy when shooting as fast as you can at the torso? In other words a six inch circle, a standard "A" zone, a 3 inch inverted triangle? When you look at a torso target after a string of extremely rapid fire what makes you say to yourself "Yeah...I started losing it with this shot and this one down here".

I'm asking these questions as part of constructing some standards. I'm talking about drills, not tactics or the chaos of a real fight.

Thanks!

1, Maximum amount of time for who? ( caliber of shooter?) For me I would want to be below the .8 second mark and that might be though to do cold and on demand. For a less experienced shooter etc say 1.75.

2, (FAST as I can) I'd have to go with the Zero down on an IDPA target or an 8'' circle for me, Agin for a less experienced shooter I'd have to go to the -1 on the IDPA. I think rounds in that area why not perfect would be as Costa says combat accurate.

DocGKR
07-16-2011, 07:07 PM
Teaching a group of average LE officers, I think it would be reasonable to require:

1. Preferably under 1 sec.

2. A 6" circle.

Obviously shooter skill levels may require modifications to the above...

GJM
07-16-2011, 07:49 PM
The Rogers School standard from an extended, confirmed ready is .5 second for an 8 inch target at 7 yards, with .25 for each successive shot.

In an AAR on the Rogers School, I described their times for various shots and combinations of shots:

http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?755-Rogers-Shooting-School

gringop
07-16-2011, 09:48 PM
My normal close distance work is at 7 yards. I would guess .9 sec for the 3x5 and 8" for the bill drill at 7.
Extrapolated to 5 yards, .8 and 6". That's at a low IDPA Master level. Normalize from there.

Crap, now I gotta go shoot this to confirm my SWAG.

Gringop

YVK
07-16-2011, 10:51 PM
Teaching a group of average LE officers, I think it would be reasonable to require:

1. Preferably under 1 sec.

2. A 6" circle.

Obviously shooter skill levels may require modifications to the above...

I consider myself an intermediate civilian shooter, and the above parameters appear reasonable to me. I don't think I can always make it, especially the first one, but I can make it most of the time.

ToddG
07-17-2011, 12:41 AM
#1. At 5 yards what do you consider the maximum amount of time required to hit a 3x5 card from an unholstered compressed position with a press-out?

Like any skill measurement, you need to define the goal and/or performers. Just a SWAG without actually testing at the range, I'd say somewhere in the 0.75 zone for myself.


#2. At 5 yards what size target zone do you consider to be acceptable accuracy when shooting as fast as you can at the torso? In other words a six inch circle, a standard "A" zone, a 3 inch inverted triangle? When you look at a torso target after a string of extremely rapid fire what makes you say to yourself "Yeah...I started losing it with this shot and this one down here".

"Acceptable accuracy" and "shooting as fast as you can" are competing goals. I consider 8" acceptable (6" better) and try to regulate my speed to achieve that except when I'm specifically drilling speed (in which case my goal is 90% hits inside the same target zone).

JDM
07-17-2011, 02:06 AM
"SWAG" ?

JV_
07-17-2011, 04:38 AM
"SWAG" ?
Scientific Wild Ass Guess

beltjones
07-17-2011, 09:29 AM
Like any skill measurement, you need to define the goal and/or performers. Just a SWAG without actually testing at the range, I'd say somewhere in the 0.75 zone for myself.



"Acceptable accuracy" and "shooting as fast as you can" are competing goals. I consider 8" acceptable (6" better) and try to regulate my speed to achieve that accept when I'm specifically drilling speed (in which case my goal is 90% hits inside the same target zone).


For the second question, it would probably work to specify a certain split time. Say, 5 yards, at a splits of less than or equal to .22 seconds, what is acceptable accuracy?

If that's the question, then I think 6" would be an acceptable standard.

SLG
07-17-2011, 02:34 PM
S'narc,

1. For a vertically oriented card, under 1 sec., for a horizontally oriented card, under 1.10, though since this is a drill, that will depend on the shooters more than anything else. I try to keep it under .65 for a vertical card, and for a horizontal, .75.

2. As Todd said, you have two competing goals there. For "as fast as I can", I would use a vertically oriented 8.5"X11" piece of paper, or maybe a paper plate. For acceptable accuracy at very fast levels of speed, I would use a vertically oriented 4.5"X 6".

YVK
07-17-2011, 03:19 PM
S'narc,

1. For a vertically oriented card, under 1 sec., for a horizontally oriented card, under 1.10, though since this is a drill, that will depend on the shooters more than anything else. I try to keep it under .65 for a vertical card, and for a horizontal, .75.

2. As Todd said, you have two competing goals there. For "as fast as I can", I would use a vertically oriented 8.5"X11" piece of paper, or maybe a paper plate. For acceptable accuracy at very fast levels of speed, I would use a vertically oriented 4.5"X 6".

I've got to ask: why faster on vertically oriented card than horizontal one?

ToddG
07-17-2011, 03:54 PM
I've got to ask: why faster on vertically oriented card than horizontal one?

The muzzle moves up and down in recoil, so the muzzle is on paper longer when the target is tall instead of wide.

markp
07-17-2011, 06:18 PM
Guys I'd like to get some answers to two very specific questions, understanding of course that the answers are subjective.

#1. At 5 yards what do you consider the maximum amount of time required to hit a 3x5 card from an unholstered compressed position with a press-out? Answers should be termed in time. .75......85....25...,.so on and so forth.

#2. At 5 yards what size target zone do you consider to be acceptable accuracy when shooting as fast as you can at the torso? In other words a six inch circle, a standard "A" zone, a 3 inch inverted triangle? When you look at a torso target after a string of extremely rapid fire what makes you say to yourself "Yeah...I started losing it with this shot and this one down here".

I'm asking these questions as part of constructing some standards. I'm talking about drills, not tactics or the chaos of a real fight.

Thanks!

1. 1 second or better .
2. Standard A zone width I could consider reasonable. FWIW, Viking Tactics runs multi round drills on a (upper) half sized a zone.

YVK
07-17-2011, 07:03 PM
The muzzle moves up and down in recoil, so the muzzle is on paper longer when the target is tall instead of wide.

That would make sense for follow-up shots, but for the first one, which I assume S.N. asked about...?

SLG
07-17-2011, 07:17 PM
That would make sense for follow-up shots, but for the first one, which I assume S.N. asked about...?


When doing a press out, the muzzle is pretty locked on for deflection, but is a little less so for elevation. Also, if you're like me, messing up your shot will usually send it low, not wide. The second aspect is the bigger one, IMO.

YVK
07-18-2011, 02:08 AM
When doing a press out, the muzzle is pretty locked on for deflection, but is a little less so for elevation. Also, if you're like me, messing up your shot will usually send it low, not wide. The second aspect is the bigger one, IMO.

Got it.

My usual mistake on horizontal card is going left - oftentimes still on the card, but left of center. Most of my rounds impact left of center. Speculative thought is vertical would be harder for me, but I've not shot it much that way.

sjcollins
07-18-2011, 10:00 AM
Guys I'd like to get some answers to two very specific questions, understanding of course that the answers are subjective.

#1. At 5 yards what do you consider the maximum amount of time required to hit a 3x5 card from an unholstered compressed position with a press-out? Answers should be termed in time. .75......85....25...,.so on and so forth.

#2. At 5 yards what size target zone do you consider to be acceptable accuracy when shooting as fast as you can at the torso? In other words a six inch circle, a standard "A" zone, a 3 inch inverted triangle? When you look at a torso target after a string of extremely rapid fire what makes you say to yourself "Yeah...I started losing it with this shot and this one down here".

I'm asking these questions as part of constructing some standards. I'm talking about drills, not tactics or the chaos of a real fight.

Thanks!

1. At 5 yards, MAX time should be .75, no reason it can't be faster.

2. My basic measurement at this distance is a palm-sized group, and absolutely no bigger. Group can be strung a little vertically or horizontally, but palm-sized stands. I think this precludes people from getting to preoccupied with "measurements." Just my opinion, though...

rjohnson4405
07-18-2011, 02:05 PM
Like any skill measurement, you need to define the goal and/or performers. Just a SWAG without actually testing at the range, I'd say somewhere in the 0.75 zone for myself.



"Acceptable accuracy" and "shooting as fast as you can" are competing goals. I consider 8" acceptable (6" better) and try to regulate my speed to achieve that except when I'm specifically drilling speed (in which case my goal is 90% hits inside the same target zone).

If Todd said .75 for himself, advocating .75 for the average shooter seems ... optimistic.

Prdator
07-18-2011, 08:28 PM
1. At 5 yards, MAX time should be .75, no reason it can't be faster.

2. My basic measurement at this distance is a palm-sized group, and absolutely no bigger. Group can be strung a little vertically or horizontally, but palm-sized stands. I think this precludes people from getting to preoccupied with "measurements." Just my opinion, though...



1, I'd love to see that done at a MAX time of .75!!!

2, Palm size groups are not "Fast as you can".....IMHO. I think defining Measurements is what everyone is after...

Tom Givens
07-19-2011, 05:37 PM
I finally got a chance to go out and put a timer on this today, cold. Bear in mind that I'm old, fat, blind and arthritic, so YMMV.

Glock 35, 180 ball.

3X5 card at 5 yards, from Ready, all hits:
.86
.70
.80
.76
.80
.76

Average = .78

5 rounds from Ready at full speed, keeping them all inside the 8" circle of an IDPA target:
1.44
1.26
1.43

Average = 1.37 seconds.

ToddG
07-19-2011, 05:58 PM
Uh... if those are Tom's numbers I think they clearly represent the upper level of likely performance.

I read the "5 from ready" but in my mind was thinking from the draw and was just staring at my computer trying to figure out what magical secret Tom has been keeping that allowed him to get five 8" hits at 7yd in 1.3-something. :cool:

Tom Givens
07-19-2011, 08:21 PM
Todd-

I actually could do that from the holster 35 years ago. No more. I used to have fast twitch and slow twitch muscles. Now I just have slow twitch and really slow twitch.

SLG
07-19-2011, 09:11 PM
Inspired by Tom's thought to actually go out and shoot, I just ran 5 rounds onto a horizontal card and 5 onto a vertical card. I can't claim the same excuses as Tom;-) but I will say that I have been a non shooting Muldoon lately. My first 5 shots were on the horizontal, and started with a .74. My last shot was a .59, and everything in between was more like a .70. On the vertical card, the numbers were pretty similar, but I was consistently .05 faster than on the horizontal.

So, I guess i would stick with my original numbers and say that 1 second would be the minimum I would tolerate as a standard. Slower than that, and I guess I'd say that you're not ready to worry about standards yet.

If I remember correctly, I want to say that in a past life, the school house standard for high level combat shooters was a .85 on a 6" circle. No one I know ever failed to meet that standard, but a 3X5 is obviously a bit more challenging.

Prdator
07-19-2011, 09:28 PM
Todd-

I actually could do that from the holster 35 years ago. No more. I used to have fast twitch and slow twitch muscles. Now I just have slow twitch and really slow twitch.

Dude when Im your age I just hope I can make a gun go off let alone shoot it the way you can!!!!!

Tom I know your big on the low ready, did you use it or the high ready ( like TLG does) on the 3x5?

ToddG
07-19-2011, 09:34 PM
Dude when Im your age I just hope I can make a gun go off let alone shoot it the way you can!!!!!

Ouch.

Prdator
07-19-2011, 09:44 PM
Ouch.

????? Ouch? I see no harm there.. I just hope I can shoot when I'm his age.... Trust me dude after 40 it starts going FAST... ( at lest for me)

Tom Givens
07-19-2011, 10:41 PM
Prdator- Craig's original question specified "an unholstered compressed ready". The compressed ready I use looks a lot like what everyone here is accustomed to for a press out, with gun pretty close to my upper chest until the timer sounds.

ToddG
07-22-2011, 03:14 PM
Just gave this a try at the range. I did 30 iterations at a speed I was certain would result in 100% hits. My average was 0.76 with a high of 0.89 (missed the beginning of the buzzer at the indoor range) and a low of 0.70 seconds.

gringop
07-22-2011, 09:38 PM
Tried this at the range today. I found that my arthritic wrists won't allow me to shoot with the gun flat from a #3. Best I could do was a 1.06 on the 3x5. I was matching that speed starting from retention/#2. Oh well, more stuff to practice.

And my bill drills at aprox .25 splits really needed an 8" circle.

I'm changing my recommendation to 1.15 and 8".

Gringop

Bratch
07-24-2011, 08:33 PM
We had 6 guys on the range Saturday morning, all 6 had had formal training 4 of them were AFHF grads. Everyone was basically cold, we had shot one Bill drill prior.

On the 3x5 card:

Shooter 1: 1.13, 1.1, .99, 1.04, 1.01
Shooter 2: .93, .85, .87-m, 1.04-m, 1.05
Shooter 3: 1.27-m, 1.47-m, 1.5, 1.24, 1.1-m
Shooter 4: 1.51-m, 1.15, 1.14, 1.05, 1.02-m
Shooter 5: 1.47, 1.19-m, 1.43, 1.0, 1.27-m
Shooter 6: 1.07-m, 1.15-m, .96-m, .96, 1.03

We then shot a Bill drill at 5 yards starting aimed in slack out on an IDPA target. The misses were out of the 8" circle:

Shooter 1: 1.63 -1, 1.29
Shooter 2: 1.58 -1, 1.35
Shooter 3: 2.88, 3.0 -1
Shooter 4: 3.88, 2.8 -1
Shooter 5: 1.67, 1.48 -1
Shooter 6: 1.95, 2.0