Group shooting -- 25, 50, 75 and 100 yards

[GJM]

All this discussion of group shooting got my wife inspired to shoot longer range on paper today. We are just in from a group shooting session, where we set up IPSC cardboard plus an 8 inch steel, and shot at 25, 50, 75 and 100 yards.

My wife shot her Glock 34 with Dawson FO sights and a stock barrel.

I first shot my Wilson customized Beretta 92A1 with FO sights, which has been my primary training pistol the last few months. As a control, I also shot my Mink CZ with FO sights, and then my Coldbore Custom Glock 17 chopped to a 19 butt (stock barrel) with HD sights. My wife was using Aguila ball and I was shooting 115 PMC.

We started at 25 yards, shooting the cardboard head, and then transitioned to the body at 50 yards and out. We shot five shot groups, so as not to get too fatigued. We mostly had A zone hits to 75 and then it gets harder. Eight inch steel was high probability to 75, where we both went 4/4 in a row (with the Glocks) on the 8 inch steel. At 100 yards, it was very iffy, partly I believe because our 3 inch at 25 yard pistols are shooting more like 12 inch groups at 100, making an 8 inch target small.

The absolute surprise was that I shot better centered, smaller groups with the chopped Gen 3 Glock 17 than with the Beretta or CZ. The Glock trigger also seemed easier to press without disturbing the sights. Both very surprising as I think of the Glock as the least "accurate" of these three pistols, with the "worst" trigger. Part of my rationale for the Beretta and CZ has always been how accurate they are. My wife thinks this is hysterical, being a long time Glocker.

Very interesting experience, which we will need to repeat more. 25 yards targets seem very close after shooting at the longer distances. If you have access to a longer range, I highly recommend this exercise.

[NH Shooter]

Interesting, and the longer range shooting often gives a better measure of shooter/hardware performance potential.

As a person who has spend a lot of time driving S&W k-frames in DAO, I don't have much of an issue with the trigger on my G17. I could still print tighter groups with the wheel gun using wad cutters, but I wasn't too far off the pace using CCI Blazer 124 FMJ loads in the G17 with Heinie sights so I guess your experience doesn't surprise me.

FWIW, my best-ever 600 score in a PPC civilian league I used to participate in was 596 with a 6" S&W Model 15, and that's going DOA the entire course, including at 50 yards. I used the G17 a couple of time and if I recall correctly, was about 10 points down my revolver average with it.

[Al T.]

The absolute surprise was that I shot better centered, smaller groups

Concentrating more. perhaps? :)

[JHC]

Hahaha! Not only a Glock but HD sights! Too coarse for precision doncha know? I dig those HDs.

[GJM]

Concentrating more. perhaps? :)

I was actually concentrating equally hard with all three pistols, because I was trying to outshoot my wife.

A few pals suggested trick of the day. Don't know. In any event, I just went out shooting some 25 yard groups with two different Gen 3 17s, to try to learn more, and they both shot fantastically well. Will post up some photos later, but I was pressing the trigger without delay.

[Up1911Fan]

How do you like the HD's for shooting longer distance's? I've been thinking about trying a set, not sure about the wide front and U Notch though.

[GJM]

How do you like the HD's for shooting longer distance's? I've been thinking about trying a set, not sure about the wide front and U Notch though.

They are my favorite long distance sight set, for my eyes. There is enough light and a big enough front, I can see the front sight better than many other sights. Sometimes, I just use the orange ring, other times I use the top edge of the sight. At 100 yards, I just stuck the orange ring on the IPSC target and let go.


Here are some groups I shot shot at 25 yards, using two different G3 Glock 17s, trying to see whether the earlier result was a fluke.

First, is 10 shots at 25 with a G17, OEM barrel, and Taran FO sights, 115 Lawmen ball:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/imagejpg2_zpsa8f6db48.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/imagejpg2_zpsa8f6db48.jpg.html)

Second, is 10 shots at 25 with a Gen 3 17, Wilson barrel, HD sights, and I forget whether it was PMC or Lawmen. Light was tough -- in my eyes, and I was pressing the trigger without delay.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/imagejpg1_zpsf22623d1.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/imagejpg1_zpsf22623d1.jpg.html)

[okie john]

Hahaha! Not only a Glock but HD sights! Too coarse for precision doncha know? I dig those HDs.

I shot a bunch of test groups with front sights of widths starting at 0.090" and going to whatever HD's are. They all shot about the same.


Okie John

[JHC]

I shot a bunch of test groups with front sights of widths starting at 0.090" and going to whatever HD's are. They all shot about the same.


Okie John

When I had a great run of ringing Frank Proctor's long steel plate at over 100 yards with my G26 I stopped after a good string of consecutive clangs I squealed in glee and Frank remarked profoundly - it all comes down to the trigger press. That was an exceptional episode for me, super sharp after about 6 hours of pistol shooting under his tutelage. I can't do that every day.

[SecondsCount]

I enjoy long range (beyond 25 yards) pistol shooting and do it on a regular basis. Walk back drills are one of my favorite things to do.

There is nothing magical about bullets in flight. As long the bullet remains stable and wind is not a factor, a 2" group at 25 will be a 4"group at 50.

[Savage Hands]

Subscribed!

[GJM]

There is nothing magical about bullets in flight. As long the bullet remains stable and wind is not a factor, a 2" group at 25 will be a 4"group at 50.

We figured we were 3 inches at 25, 12 inches at 100, and therefore an 8 inch steel target was too small at 100. Something bigger, that can frequently be painted to show your hits is better.

[KevinB]

We figured we were 3 inches at 25, 12 inches at 100, and therefore an 8 inch steel target was too small at 100. Something bigger, that can frequently be painted to show your hits is better.

you need some 12" steel...

Interesting drills -- its been years since I have done any group shooting at ranges -- I usually try to sneak some 50-100m pop up targets in once a month, but have not gone and grouped anything -- something to do.

[mongooseman]

A little off subject: would you attribute the accuracy of the G17, in part, to the Wilson barrel?

[GJM]

A little off subject: would you attribute the accuracy of the G17, in part, to the Wilson barrel?

Maybe. My 17 with the Wilson shoots amazingly well. That said, I have an older OD Gen 3 17 with an OEM barrel, chopped to 19 butt length, that shoots equally well -- better than what I associate with other G3 17s I have.

In my experience, the Gen 3 pistols have better triggers and the G4 pistols shoot more accurately. With a Wilson barrel, one can have the best of both trigger and accuracy.

[Gio]

I find Glocks to be fairly accurate. Trigger control is what messes most people up. Here is a group fired from a sandbag rest at 50 yds with a stock gen 3 (mfg 2009) Glock 26, trijicon sights.

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e342/givo08/IMG_3791.jpg

[GJM]

I find Glocks to be fairly accurate. Trigger control is what messes most people up. Here is a group fired from a sandbag rest at 50 yds with a stock gen 3 (mfg 2009) Glock 26, trijicon sights.

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e342/givo08/IMG_3791.jpg

Ha!

[JHC]

G26s rock! That's pretty cool.

[1slow]

GJM, Good work. What ammo ?

[GJM]

GJM, Good work. What ammo ?

Not my group!

[BN]

2654

50 yards Phoenix HP-22. I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't shot it myself. :)

Sorry about the sideways pic.

[Gio]

GJM, Good work. What ammo ?

Ammo was Speer Lawman 115gr +p FMJ.

[1slow]

Sorry about crediting the wrong shooter.

[45dotACP]

I find Glocks to be fairly accurate. Trigger control is what messes most people up. Here is a group fired from a sandbag rest at 50 yds with a stock gen 3 (mfg 2009) Glock 26, trijicon sights.

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e342/givo08/IMG_3791.jpg

Bolded for Truth.

[Gio]

Bolded for Truth.

Yea, and stock Glocks really do nothing for you to hide poor trigger control like a good 1911 trigger. If you do your part though, it is fairly mechanically accurate.

[Bruce Gray]

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c119/Grayguns/X5groupjpg.jpg

Here's an image of the X5 AllRound we prepared for Mickey Fowler before Bianchi a couple years ago. I shot this from a rest at fifty yards, with our Laser-Cast practice rounds. I was suitably impressed with how this pistol shot, to say the least!

-Bruce Gray / Disclosure: I own a pistolsmithing firm and shoot and consult for SIG Sauer.

[Bruce Gray]

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c119/Grayguns/Rubypistoljpg.jpg

That X5 was sweet, BUT...could this be the most accurate pistol we have in our shop?

1914 Spanish Ruby contract .32ACP French service pistol. Almost has rifling. 8 pound gritty trigger. Barleycorn sights.

Perfect.

So much for custom pistolsmithing.

-Bruce Gray / Disclosure: I occasionally drink French wines with my gazpacho andaluz.

[Bruce Gray]

But, considering the group posted earlier that was fired with a Gen3 G19 and 115 Speer ball, I got nothin'. Seriously impressed!

-Bruce Gray / Disclosure: I got nothin'. :cool:

[camsdaddy]

I find I am the limiting factor. I shot my 17 at 50 the other day and found that it was far more capable than I was. Really forced me to focus. I realized that my eye sight and inexperience is far more of a factor than the standard Trijicon 3 dots. Of course my first reaction was I probably need a different sight set up. Hardware solutions to software problems.

[Gio]

I find I am the limiting factor. I shot my 17 at 50 the other day and found that it was far more capable than I was. Really forced me to focus. I realized that my eye sight and inexperience is far more of a factor than the standard Trijicon 3 dots. Of course my first reaction was I probably need a different sight set up. Hardware solutions to software problems.

The group I shot with the g26 above was standard trijicon 3 dots. While it's not as fast of a sight picture as the TTI sights I have on my limited gun, they do just fine for slow fire accuracy.

[JHC]

The group I shot with the g26 above was standard trijicon 3 dots. While it's not as fast of a sight picture as the TTI sights I have on my limited gun, they do just fine for slow fire accuracy.

I've witness some pretty sick 25 yard offhand shooting with factory plastic sights on a Gen 4 G17. Blasphemy! Archers and arrows.

[Gio]

I did some more shooting today, this time with a gen 4 G19, completely stock except for Trijicon 3 dot night sights. Same ammo (Speer Lawman, 115gr +p FMJ).

I shot some more 50 yard groups prone that I did not photograph with a co-workers G17. I think I am more accurate at distance shooting prone than using the sandbag rest.

50 yds, from sandbag rest, 5 rounds, 1 called flier high.
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e342/givo08/image1.jpg

100 yds, from prone position, 6 rounds
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e342/givo08/image1-2.jpg

[ASH556]

I went out yesterday afternoon to our hunting property to zero some rifles @ 100 and then hunt the evening. After seeing this thread, I decided to take a couple pistols and try some longer range pistol shooting. I fired 10 shot groups, all standing freestyle at 25, 50, 75, and 100 yds. The first four groups I fired with my training gun, which is an exact copy of my carry gun and is a Gen 4 Glock 17, stock besides minus connector, extended slide stop, and sights (TCAP front, Defoor rear). I used 115 gr Atlanta Arms "match" ammo. The final 10 shot group was back at 25 yards and was with another Gen 4 Glock 17, but this one with a KKM drop-in threaded barrel and Dawson adjustable sights.

I wasn't terribly impressed with the first 25 yd target. I've definitely shot better than this at the local 25yd indoor range:

http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab104/ASH556/1524AE9F-46C2-4D88-A4D4-501D22C3B8AF.jpg

50 was actually not too bad. I had one go wild out to the right. I counted it as "-5"

http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab104/ASH556/924D8389-EEF4-4412-8418-0B7FE1F668FD.jpg

75 was where things started getting difficult. Eye focus starts to play a huge role as well as wobble zone. It's hard to see where you're holding:

http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab104/ASH556/7DD53E98-CD5D-4ECB-877A-0949862853C0.jpg

And finally 100. The cardboard backer is 24in by 24in. I dropped one round completely off the cardboard, but managed to keep 5/10 on the 8.5x11 paper. For the 100 yd mark, I was holding (as best I could see) the top of the front sight on the top edge of the white paper:

http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab104/ASH556/3BEA6436-D46C-4854-BEEE-DB7A2C964F8B.jpg

Then, I went back to 25 with the KKM gun and as GJM said, it seemed really close. I somehow couldn't force myself to slow down and I fired this group in probably 30 seconds. My best ever score on a B-8 @ 25yds (and it should be better. I really feel I could pull a 100 with this pistol):

http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab104/ASH556/ED501924-DD12-4480-9E0F-3A3B07B14A9F.jpg
http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab104/ASH556/5DE1E8BC-5EE4-49E4-98FD-439369A0A6E5.jpg

One other point of interest is the aggregate group of the entire 50 rounds. Pretty well centered overall:

http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab104/ASH556/53D142DE-6CD2-4146-B491-A64920C9E4BF.jpg

[Gio]

Those are good targets, especially for standing unsupported at 50 and 100.

[Mr_White]

Those are good targets, especially for standing unsupported at 50 and 100.

Yours and ASH556's targets are looking pretty awesome. My compliments!

[P210-6]

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c119/Grayguns/X5groupjpg.jpg

Here's an image of the X5 AllRound we prepared for Mickey Fowler before Bianchi a couple years ago. I shot this from a rest at fifty yards, with our Laser-Cast practice rounds. I was suitably impressed with how this pistol shot, to say the least!

-Bruce Gray / Disclosure: I own a pistolsmithing firm and shoot and consult for SIG Sauer.


That is a very well behaved gun. Here is my picture from this weekend - same platform, not the same exact gun,
shooting from 25 yards two handed standing, generic factory FMJ ammo, after 6hrs on a 30 degree F range. There were no previous attempts, this was at the end of the day, getting ready to leave, after having shot a maximum of 30-35 rounds during demonstrations running drills.
Target is oriented in this picture as it was on the range.
Shot 1 is lowest (POA was 1.25" center square.
Shots 2, 3 are immediately above
I felt 4 go high left, and 5 go high right. Otherwise they would have probably been stacked up in a line above each other.

P210-6


http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f336/P210-6/56d507cd-2025-4c09-b5b3-4db76fefc851_zpsf09dfd2d.jpg

[GJM]

Today was 100 yard day. Set up a USPSA cardboard and a MGM mini B/C steel at 100 yards.

I shot my Gen 3 Glock 17, ISP prefix, Taran Tactical FO sights, OEM barrel, minus connector and otherwise stock trigger. I was shooting five round groups. First group fired was with PMC 115 ball. It just felt inconsistent to my ear, and I had an A, B, C, D and Mike. Went to 115 grain Lawman ammo for the duration of the distance shooting. This was the first five round Lawman group, shot from sitting, and only the second group I fired, pressing the trigger pretty quickly. Here was the group:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/100Tarang1_zps14d2ef67.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/100Tarang1_zps14d2ef67.jpg.html)


I fired another group, and noted there was a approximate 10 knot wind from the left. Here was my group:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/100Taranwind_zps037973b7.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/100Taranwind_zps037973b7.jpg.html)

So, would a 10 knot wind at 100 yards have this kind of effect on 115 FMJ?

Then I focused on the MGM mini B/C, holding on the left edge of the steel to correct for the wind out of the left. I went 5/5, which was a happy thing:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/100TaranBC_zps827d1422.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/100TaranBC_zps827d1422.jpg.html)

Feeling pretty good about my G17, I grabbed my carry pistol, a Gen 3 17 cut to 19 butt length with HD sights. I have noted that when I shoot the middle of an IPSC head at 25 yards, this pistol impacts near the bottom of the head. Holding just below the head, my shots were hitting the bottom of the IPSC target. I tried elevating in the notch, and that didn't work satisfactory, so I next focused on the MGM B/C. First I went 4/5, and then 5/5 at 100. However, I had to hold at the top of the steel to hit the bottom. See below:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/100HDBC_zps57923d32.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/100HDBC_zps57923d32.jpg.html)

It was interesting, because while I really like HD sights out to 50 yards, today I much preferred the Taran FO sights at 100. I think I need to get a .215 front with regular height rear, and see if it gets my POI where I want it to be.

I then finished up with a 100 yard Bill drill at 100 yards with the Taran pistol. I called one I yarded, but otherwise had 5 hits:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/100Bill_zps57567dbc.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/100Bill_zps57567dbc.jpg.html)

All in all, I was very pleased with the stock Gen 3 at 100 yards. I then went and shot the Garcia dot drill at 7 yards, and the dots felt pretty big.

[Mr_White]

Very nice, GJM, that is excellent!

[GJM]

My wife wanted to shoot 100 yards again this afternoon, to iron out a sight adjustment at 100 on her Glock 19. Funny, as I was dragging stuff to 100 yards, my buddy called me and started poking me about how 100 yard shooting was practicing stuff I was already decent at, and not necessarily helpful to USPSA.

In any event, we started shooting at 100. My bright idea of the day was to shoot the white side of the target, for better contrast against the brown dirt. First, I shot a Gen 3 17 with HD sights, that were regulated, to see how they did at 100. Here was my group at 100, shooting Lawman 115 FMJ, holding at the top of the A zone:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/1118G17HD_zps2dcf54c2.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/1118G17HD_zps2dcf54c2.jpg.html)

Then I shot a Bill drill at 100 yards -- six shots, one flyer off the paper:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/1118G17HDBill_zpsabc7bb82.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/1118G17HDBill_zpsabc7bb82.jpg.html)

Feeling like that pistol was POI, I grabbed my #2 G17 with Taran sights, and OEM barrel, and shot this five shot group at 100 yards from sitting:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/1118G17Tarannumb2_zpsdccc7e86.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/1118G17Tarannumb2_zpsdccc7e86.jpg.html)

I don't know what happened to one shot, but the four on the paper are, far and away, the best group I have shot at 100 yards with a service pistol in my life. I looked for a double, but it wash't there.

Then feeling frisky, I shot 5/5 off hand at 100 yards with this pistol:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/1118steel_zpse8c27775.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/1118steel_zpse8c27775.jpg.html)

I then upped the ante, by trying to shooting the head of the IPSC target at 100 yards. I went 5/5, but all 5 were misses. I think I shot over the target, and will need to work on that some more in the future.

To end the session, I set up El Presidente, to see whether this 100 yard thing helped or hurt my close in shooting. My first run was 6.16 down 3 C's, and then I shot a 5.71 down two C's El Prez. That works out to a 9.807 HF or 95.57 run, which is certainly a PR for me. I finished up with a 5.53, down 2 D's, or a 91.60, which still would deb a PR. So, while I can't swear the 100 yard group shooting did it, it certainly didn't hurt my closer in shooting.

[GJM]

Before I forget, I have had excellent results shooting Lawman 115 FMJ for accuracy challenges from 25-100 yards. It is available for just a slight premium to shooter ball, and groups on par in accuracy with Gold Dot 124+P, HST and Ranger T. It is pretty stout, feeling +P, making it perhaps not the best choice for high round count training sessions, but not objectionable for my distance shooting.

[Gio]

Before I forget, I have had excellent results shooting Lawman 115 FMJ for accuracy challenges from 25-100 yards. It is available for just a slight premium to shooter ball, and groups on par in accuracy with Gold Dot 124+P, HST and Ranger T. It is pretty stout, feeling +P, making it perhaps not the best choice for high round count training sessions, but not objectionable for my distance shooting.

I agree, and it is what I used to shoot the groups I posted earlier in this thread as well.

[Gio]

I shot this 25 yard, 5 shot group today standing unsupported from 25 yards with my gen4 G19, stock except for trijicon night sights. I was checking POA/POI on 147gr Speer Gold Dot 2. POA was center of upper A.

The shot that is separated from the rest to the right was the first shot of the 5. I readjusted my grip and checked the target afterward, and then fired the remaining 4 at a slow pace without readjusting my grip or looking where the shot hit before firing the next. When I do the latter, I find that my group size is significantly reduced at distance.

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e342/givo08/IMG_4066.jpg

[GJM]

I noticed, especially at 100 yards, that I frequently had four clustered hits and one shot further out.

A friend wondered, about something Mas Ayoob discussed years back, about the hand cycled round impacting differently. Makes me want to experiment with firing a first shot at something else, and then shooting my group. Anyone have an opinion on this?

[Clobbersaurus]

So you are thinking maybe the hand cycled round is seated differently in the chamber? Interesting thought.

I wonder if press checking the round, which I do every time I load, has something to do with it? I would think that loading and dropping the slide at lock or racking the slide and releasing at full extension would be almost equivalent to standard slide movement on recoil? Just a thought. It's definitely worth experimenting with.

[Gio]

I noticed, especially at 100 yards, that I frequently had four clustered hits and one shot further out.

A friend wondered, about something Mas Ayoob discussed years back, about the hand cycled round impacting differently. Makes me want to experiment with firing a first shot at something else, and then shooting my group. Anyone have an opinion on this?

I loaded 11 rounds in the mag, the first 6 fired was a bill drill at 7 yards, and then the last 5 was this slow fired group, so I can only blame myself for that one.

[GJM]

So you are thinking maybe the hand cycled round is seated differently in the chamber? Interesting thought.

I wonder if press checking the round, which I do every time I load, has something to do with it? I would think that loading and dropping the slide at lock or racking the slide and releasing at full extension would be almost equivalent to standard slide movement on recoil? Just a thought. It's definitely worth experimenting with.

Perusing the pictures I posted on page 4, there frequently is one out or further from the "group." I will need to test this stuff when I get back to 100 yards.

Funny about the 100 yard shooting. I started whacking at a steel at "25" yards today. Then I measured it, and it was at 40 yards. 25 yards feels a lot closer now than it used to.

[GJM]

I agree, and it is what I used to shoot the groups I posted earlier in this thread as well.

SGAmmo has the Lawman TMJ on sale now for $225/1000!


http://www.sgammo.com/product/black-friday-thanksgiving-sale/1000-round-case-9mm-luger-speer-lawman-115-grain-tmj-ammo-536

[Gio]

SGAmmo has the Lawman TMJ on sale now for $225/1000!


http://www.sgammo.com/product/black-friday-thanksgiving-sale/1000-round-case-9mm-luger-speer-lawman-115-grain-tmj-ammo-536

Fortunately, most of my ammo comes through work, and I reload for USPSA matches. That is a good price though.

[KevinB]

Well out on the range earlier this week - we tried a Larue at 450m with pistol (well one guy started and I had to then try)

Winds where a little stupid - but if it had not been the wind, I think I would have landed the last few rounds from my mag of 147gr Golden Sabers.

I ended up aiming at a tank around the 950m mark using the DP Pro - then having to alter for wind around 30-40ft left and right of the left top of the left track...

Need to find somewhere to get paper on the 100 and 200m ranges

[GJM]

C
Well out on the range earlier this week - we tried a Larue at 450m with pistol (well one guy started and I had to then try)

Winds where a little stupid - but if it had not been the wind, I think I would have landed the last few rounds from my mag of 147gr Golden Sabers.

I ended up aiming at a tank around the 950m mark using the DP Pro - then having to alter for wind around 30-40ft left and right of the left top of the left track...

Need to find somewhere to get paper on the 100 and 200m ranges

To borrow a line I was on the receiving end of from Jeff Cooper, Kevin you better hope the paint wasn't to thick on those targets.