The Heckler & Koch VP9 with Law Enforcement Ammunition

[Molon]

The Heckler & Koch VP9 with Law Enforcement Ammunition


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My H&K VP9 currently has a total of 650 rounds through it (mostly hand-loads, mostly) and it has not had any malfunctions to date. As the intended role of the VP9 is that of a service/self-defense weapon, I decided it was time to see how the VP9 handled some of the top performing 9mm law enforcement/self-defense ammunition currently available, namely:

Federal 124 grain (+P) HST
Federal 147 grain HST
Winchester 124 grain (+P) Ranger-T
Winchester 147 grain Ranger-T.

All shooting for this evaluation was conducted from the bench at a distance of 25 yards. All groups consisted of 10-shots and every shot in a group was included in the measurements.

Prior to shooting the duty loads, I fired a 10-shot control group using hand-loads seated with the Hornady 125 grain HAP bullet. That group had an extreme spread of 1.6” and a mean radius of 0.46”. For those of you who might not be familiar with the mean radius, you can view an explanation and demonstration of it at the link below:


http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_16/512887_.html&page=1




https://app.box.com/shared/static/py9a2tj7ryj3nba80cz0.jpg




The Federal Tactical HST ammunition was tested first. The 124 grain (+P) HST produced a 10-shot group with an extreme spread of 2.1” and a mean radius of 0.64”.




https://app.box.com/shared/static/jh3tgha03f1gdd2mg8yu.jpg



The Federal 147 grain HST turned in a 10-shot group with an extreme spread of 2.4” with a mean radius of 0.91”.




https://app.box.com/shared/static/rs1h9r2o133x6z92kw2g.jpg




Next up, the Winchester Ranger-T series loads. The 124 grain (+P) Ranger-T delivered a 10-shot group with an extreme spread of 2.2” and a mean radius of 0.78”.




https://app.box.com/shared/static/zkqrnobjn6k2s790zlce.jpg




Lastly, the Winchester 147 grain Ranger-T load came in with an extreme spread of 2.6” and a mean radius of 0.82”.




https://app.box.com/shared/static/kqfel4e2j0sxqawyw5p3.jpg




The VP9 had zero malfunctions while testing the law enforcement ammunition. The accuracy (technically, precision) results of the evaluation are summarized in the table below.





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….

[jetfire]

Are you shooting these groups from a sandbag, a Ransom Rest, or standing freestyle? I hope it's the latter.

[Dagga Boy]

For what its worth, we did a shoot with another gun writer. Using 4 guns we shot just about every conceivable 9mm L/E training and duty load without a single malfunction, and I noted how easy brass pick up was due to the consistent piles.

[jetfire]

For what its worth, we did a shoot with another gun writer. Using 4 guns we shot just about every conceivable 9mm L/E training and duty load without a single malfunction, and I noted how easy brass pick up was due to the consistent piles.

That was a nice little feature - HK should include it in their advertising. "Are you a gunwriter? Do you hate wandering all over the place to pick up your brass? Good news! The VP9 will put everything in a nice little pile, exactly 1 meter behind and to your right. Why one meter? BECAUSE WE ARE GERMAN"

[Kyle Reese]

Very nice, Molon.

Thank you for taking the time to do this evaluation.

[Al T.]

Very nice, Molon.

Thank you for taking the time to do this evaluation.

Ditto. Greatly appreciated. :)

[JHC]

The gun seems very competitive.

[Savage Hands]

I'd like to see this test with a current Gen 4 G17 or G19 :)

[PPGMD]

That was a nice little feature - HK should include it in their advertising. "Are you a gunwriter? Do you hate wandering all over the place to pick up your brass? Good news! The VP9 will put everything in a nice little pile, exactly 1 meter behind and to your right. Why one meter? BECAUSE WE ARE GERMAN"

It is to make up for their rifles or subguns which shoot the brass into the next county.

[GardoneVT]

That was a nice little feature - HK should include it in their advertising. "Are you a gunwriter? Do you hate wandering all over the place to pick up your brass? Good news! The VP9 will put everything in a nice little pile, exactly 1 meter behind and to your right. Why one meter? BECAUSE WE ARE GERMAN"

The Italian Job:

"Do you hate stepping on brass at your shooting spot? Sick of telling the wife youre 'working late' when youre really picking up brass?No worries. With the Tanfoglio Witness 10mm, your casings will land in a different time zone: guaranteed or your money back!"

[GJM]

First, OP thanks for going to the trouble to do and report on this!



I'd like to see this test with a current Gen 4 G17 or G19 :)

I am very interested in this test, but have a different take on it. The VP9 seems incredibly accurate. My theory, is after shooting groups to 100 yards yesterday, that the groups you shoot from field positions, as opposed to from a bench, reflect both the accuracy of the pistol/ammo combination AND the ergonomics of the pistol (and in particular the trigger, which allow you to extract that accuracy from the system.)

No objection to a bench test between the VP9 and Gen 4. However, what I would really like to see, is several shooters taking a Gen 3 Glock 17, with ammo that groups well, and shoot non-benched groups against the VP9 from 25, 50, 75 and 100 yards. The reason I say Gen 3, is the typical Gen 3 trigger has enough less travel between take-up and break, that I can tell a difference shooting groups with the two generations. This will test practical accuracy between the Glock and VP9.

[JHC]

I am always fascinated by accuracy test results but there are a lot of Gen 4 G17 datapoints that indicate 3" @ 25 for 5 is regularly attained by shooters offhand and less rested.

The 10 vs 5 rd group for offhand can be debated; offhand vs rested.

If we got more offhand measured VP9 groups we'd be on our way.

On other forums I see a lot of subjective comments about shooters performing the best EVER with it for precision but not the sort of details, pics, etc from "known" good shooters. Many of those anecdotes are limited to 10 and 15 yds.

I really like Molon's protocol to get a fix on the mechanical capability and then it's up to the shooter to learn to see how much of that they can squeeze out of it.

[LSP972]

I am very interested in this test, but have a different take on it. The VP9 seems incredibly accurate. My theory, is after shooting groups to 100 yards yesterday, that the groups you shoot from field positions, as opposed to from a bench, reflect both the accuracy of the pistol/ammo combination AND the ergonomics of the pistol (and in particular the trigger, which allow you to extract that accuracy from the system.)

No objection to a bench test between the VP9 and Gen 4. However, what I would really like to see, is several shooters taking a Gen 3 Glock 17, with ammo that groups well, and shoot non-benched groups against the VP9 from 25, 50, 75 and 100 yards. The reason I say Gen 3, is the typical Gen 3 trigger has enough less travel between take-up and break, that I can tell a difference shooting groups with the two generations. This will test practical accuracy between the Glock and VP9.

George, I have done this with a G19/P30. The G19 features a stippled grip reduction by Bowie, and a NY1 spring/3.5#connector combo. An eminently "shootable" grip that feels wonderful.

I did it both off the bench and "standing on my hind legs" (with support and without), out to 25 yards. The P30 won, hands down. It is a V1 LEM (heavy TRS), so its trigger is no prize. Neither is the G19's. While I feel that the LEM trigger is a bit more conducive to precision work- it has a more crisp break than the NY1 spring set up- I also am convinced that the P30 simply has a LOT more mechanical accuracy built into it.

Ammunition used was some old American Eagle 147gr training ball that has been quite accurate, and more importantly, consistent, across the board in every 9mm I've ever tried it in (I have a bunch of it).

This was a year or so ago, so I have no targets to show you. But the groups turned in by the P30 were consistently smaller and tighter, regardless of the shooting style employed. Off the bench, wrists resting on bags, the P30 was amazingly accurate at distance. The G19 was... acceptable.

Of course, this begs the question... was it me, or the guns? Using a machine rest is the ONLY way to know for sure, and while I am intimately familiar with the idiosyncrasies of a Ransom Rest, I found that the results gleaned from bolting a polymer frame gun in one are not as dependable as a steel frame piece- sans stocks- which more or less locks into the mounting pads quite solidly.

While I don't particularly care for Glock triggers, I am very familiar with them. I do favor the LEM, but am under no illusions as to its efficacy in precision work. That said, both of the triggers on these pistols are quite suitable for EDC (IOW, they are not super-light, "tuned" triggers). And they are pretty equally stiff, in terms of breaking the shot properly. Both guns fit my hands beautifully. Therefore, my money is on the HK having more inherent accuracy.

We were discussing this just yesterday. We discovered that the HK45 and HK45 Compact are not in the FBI's GRC (general rifling characteristics) data base; apparently, nobody has commited a serious crime with one yet. The point of the discovery was an HK45 that had been seized from a dummy with drugs; which means that, even though he commited no crime other than being stupid in front of a cop, and having his stash and the pistol discovered in the resulting Terry search, his chances of getting the pistol back are slim to none. We did, however, run it through our routine, fired it three times, and entered it into NIBIN just in case. That's when we found out that the HK45/HK45C, and the Mark 23 Crew-Served Handgun, are not in the FBI database.

So, as is routine, we prepared the bullets and brass for submission to have them included in said database. And THAT is when we noticed that the HK polygonal rifling is quite different from the other polygonally-bored pistols we see; mainly Glocks, with the odd Kahr here and there.

What makes the HK rifling different is beyond the scope of this thread (I've rambled too long as it is), but it is my professional opinion that it probably contributes to the superior accuracy that many besides myself have observed from HK pistols in general. They just are more accurate, plain and simple, in my book. This past week-end, using my main carry HK45C (the HKPro special edition with the baby-poop frame), I managed a 296 on Wayne Dobbs' 1-2-3 Drill as administered by Tom in his class. Later, on Tom's similar drill (both fired on a B-8, out to 25 yards), I missed cleaning it by two points (298). Now... I am old, my sight is fading, and I don't have the hard control I used to. It was so hot, I didn't care about anything else, and just drove the gun. Yes, I was surprised by my scores. Because I have shot these drills before, using another, similar G19 to the one in my afore-metioned "test", and the best I ever did was a 291.

Anyway... take all that for what it is worth. In terms of defensive shooting in general, I don't think the HK is any better than your basic Glock, Sig, or Beretta. What I AM curious about is how the Beretta (92F) and the Sig (P229R Scorpion) would stack up against the P30 (or the VP9) on the 1-2-3 Drill... particulary the Sig, which has a SWEET SA break. Sounds like a project for when it cools off some.

.

[JV_]

It is a V1 LEM (heavy TRS)I thought the V1 was the light TRS, a round wire spring.

[JHC]

I'd love to shoot this 320 worked over by Bruce Gray https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=844333802252872&set=gm.797173473668893&type=1&theater

[LSP972]

I thought the V1 was the light TRS, a round wire spring.

Could be. I have nine HK pistols, and I still get confused at times, as there is no uniformity amongst their "labeling"... i.e., a V1 in a P-series pistol is a LEM. In the USP/HK45 series, V1 is a DA/SA/decocker.

My P30 has the square-stock TRS. To further muddy the waters, there are TWO "round stock" TRS versions; the gray one is a bit heavier/stronger than the black one.

.

[SecondsCount]

Could be. I have nine HK pistols, and I still get confused at times, as there is no uniformity amongst their "labeling"... i.e., a V1 in a P-series pistol is a LEM. In the USP/HK45 series, V1 is a DA/SA/decocker.

My P30 has the square-stock TRS. To further muddy the waters, there are TWO "round stock" TRS versions; the gray one is a bit heavier/stronger than the black one.

.
My P30 is a V2, is factory stock, and has the square wire spring.

[LSP972]

So I guess mine is a V2, then. Because it is stock as well; I'll have a look at the box label when I get home.

.

[okie john]

[SIZE=4][B][U]All shooting for this evaluation was conducted from the bench at a distance of 25 yards. All groups consisted of 10-shots and every shot in a group was included in the measurements.

Thank you for the rigor and precision you've brought to this process--they make this thread a rare and valuable asset.

Mods, can you sticky this thread (as you've done with certain threads related to duty ammo) and add other load/pistol combinations?


Okie John

[GJM]

LSP, I am not suggesting the Glock Gen 3 is anywhere near as accurate as the VP9, which seems to shoot almost all loads very accurately. My question goes to the practical accuracy -- meaning the accuracy one achieves when shooting from positions other than the bench, and especially with time pressure.

My experience at 25, 50, 75 and 100 yards yesterday from field positions, was that my Gen 3 17 outshot my Wilson Beretta and Mink SP01, when it came to making groups. This was astonishing to me, as I believe both the Beretta and CZ are more accurate from a bench.

I am not sure that NY spring was the best configuration of a for making groups, but a lot of this may be personal preference as to trigger characteristics. Crisp for example, isn't a plus for me to quickly shoot groups.

[mizer67]

http://www.m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=20997&d=1367451153

A Gen4 Glock (rebarreled) can be as precise as a VP9.

[Nephrology]

I am curious as to what the same exact test would produce with a Glock 17 and other similar competitors (M&P9, etc). Without repeating the same experiment with the Glock, it seems basically impossible to compare their mechanical accuracy. I have no doubt that, out of the box, both are

[JBP55]

So I guess mine is a V2, then. Because it is stock as well; I'll have a look at the box label when I get home.
.

When you decide to shoot the P30 and a Glock again let me know and I will bring a Gen 4 Glock to the range with a good trigger.
I am sure you will shoot your P30 better but I think the groups will be comparable.
The groups from the two VP9 pistols I shot at 25 yards were comparable to my Gen 4 G34 groups at 25 yards.

[LSP972]

My question goes to the practical accuracy -- meaning the accuracy one achieves when shooting from positions other than the bench, and especially with time pressure.


I understood that; which is why I also mentioned that most of the shooting was done standing free style, with and without barricade support. Barricade support is intended to simulate using available cover as a rest, such as a wall, corner, etc. Admittedly, I wasn't timing myself… but I'm reasonably certain that doing so would only have made the respective groups larger, and that the proportions would have remained basically the same.

Indeed, the NY spring blows big-time for precision shooting. But it is a REAL good idea for a carry piece, due to the exceedingly positive reset and near-total lack of potential of breaking at a bad time.

By "crisp", I mean it breaks clean; as opposed to the G19/NY1 arrangement which feels like more of a mash. Weight of my P30's break is 6-8#, estimated. That said, I'll bring it to the lab tomorrow and put the weights on it. I never really worried about it before (and still don't), but my curiosity is now aroused.

I think you're right about the personal preference angle. When it gets right down to the nut-cutting, a competent shooter should be able to deliver accurate fire with any handgun that possesses good mechanical accuracy, adequate sights, and a decent trigger. What's "good", "adequate", and "decent" for me may well not work so hot for you; and vice versa.

But it makes for interesting discourse. I'm definitely going to our agency outdoor range when the weather breaks, and try some more of this at the long line with all three pistols (P30, 92F, P229R).

.

[LSP972]

When you decide to shoot the P30 and a Glock again let me know and I will bring a Gen 4 Glock to the range with a good trigger.
I am sure you will shoot your P30 better but I think the groups will be comparable.


Sure; if you don't mind coming out to JESTC. Ya'll's range is… not ideally located.;)

.

[Savage Hands]

http://www.m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=20997&d=1367451153

A Gen4 Glock (rebarreled) can be as precise as a VP9.


The barrel fit on the dozens of Gen 4 Glocks I've handled are slightly better fit than the Gen 3's made in the same period, some Gen 4 G19's test shot a month ago that I've handled have no movement.

[JBP55]

The barrel fit on the dozens of Gen 4 Glocks I've handled are slightly better fit than the Gen 3's made in the same period, some Gen 4 G19's test shot a month ago that I've handled have no movement.

Same results here.

[Wayne Dobbs]

Sure; if you don't mind coming out to JESTC. Ya'll's range is… not ideally located.;)

.

I miss those ranges at JESTC. Had some great times working hard with a bunch of unbelievable guys there. Shot a TON of ammo...

[opmike]

Is there some sort of standard method of evaluating barrel fit without digging out the calipers? Everyone I ask seems to have a different technique.

[hufnagel]

I want to know where he found P9HST2 ammo at. :D

[LSP972]

I miss those ranges at JESTC. Had some great times working hard with a bunch of unbelievable guys there. Shot a TON of ammo...

Triple Canopy, or ATAP?

.

[md8232]

http://www.m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=20997&d=1367451153

A Gen4 Glock (rebarreled) can be as precise as a VP9.

Why is a SIRT shown in this picture? Mine only shoots red and green lasers.

[mizer67]

Why is a SIRT shown in this picture? Mine only shoots red and green lasers.

Mine's mostly a paperweight these days, so.....

[LittleLebowski]

Are you shooting these groups from a sandbag, a Ransom Rest, or standing freestyle? I hope it's the latter.

Curious about this myself.

[Molon]

Curious about this myself.


As was clearly stated in the original post of this thread, “all shooting for this evaluation was conducted from the bench.”

The Bench-Rest Position

The shooter is seated at a concrete bench facing the target. The upper extremities/handgun are rested on sand-bags. This “allows the shooter to concentrate upon proper sight alignment and trigger squeeze”*

* From the NRA Pistol Shooting handbook.

The objective was not see how still I could hold my arms out in front of me; the objective was to determine the level of precision that the VP9 could deliver under as practicable conditions as was reasonable. Also, testing has shown that polymer-framed pistols do not always deliver their best level of precision when fired from a Ransom rest.

[Molon]

I recently passed the 1,000 round count with my VP9 and to date have not had a single malfunction. Except for a small amount of finish wear on the barrel, the exterior of the gun still looks brand new. A Bore-Scope view of the interior of the barrel showed that the tool marks in the leade of the barrel have now been burnished smooth.




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....

[Mike C]

Molon I have a few questions if you have the time.

1. Did you use stock sights during your accuracy test?
2. If you used stock sights did you feel that they were a hinderance to achieving better groups?
3. If you initially used stock sights are you still utilizing them now?
4. Have you done any subsequent testing in terms of accuracy and noted any changes?

Thank you for your time as always you provide an excellent source of information and detail.

[Rich]

What I AM curious about is how the Beretta (92F) and the Sig (P229R Scorpion) would stack up against the P30 (or the VP9) on the 1-2-3 Drill... particulary the Sig, which has a SWEET SA break. Sounds like a project for when it cools off some.

.

I like my P229 40cal over the Beretta96 and P30S 9mm.

[LSP972]

I like my P229 40cal over the Beretta96 and P30S 9mm.

Moot point for me. The Beretta is too big for me to carry, the Sig is too heavy, and the VP9 blows away my P30. Traded the first two, keeping the P30 as a spare for my wife. Any 9mm shooting I'll be doing, for a while, will be with the VP9.

.

[JBP55]

Moot point for me. The Beretta is too big for me to carry, the Sig is too heavy, and the VP9 blows away my P30. Traded the first two, keeping the P30 as a spare for my wife. Any 9mm shooting I'll be doing, for a while, will be with the VP9.

.

I saw a LA. POST Firearms Instructor with a VP9 shoot a score of 106 on the LA. POST Firearms course last night shooting all head shots and a score of 114 shooting the course with non dominant hand only.
Max of 120 points for those that are not familiar with the LA. POST Firearms course.