Dropped into Jamestown, VA in 1607...

[TR675]

The Glock/Beretta in Iraq thread got me started down this path, which is kind of fun and was popular on an old forum I used to post on...

You have bumped into an anomaly in the time/space continuum and, Army of Darkness style, find yourself in Jamestown, Virginia in 1609. This is during the "Starving Time" so your goal, for obvious reasons, is to GTFO and make it to California to see the coastal redwoods and to found your own colony, Liberteria, pop. 1, before the lunkhead Californians can ruin the place. You've had all of your shots, and you're travelling on foot.

Lucky you, you'd just been shopping at my favorite place on earth, Cabela's, where due to a weird premonition about just this sort of thing happening you'd picked up a bunch of camping gear and (1) knife, (1) rifle, (1) handgun and as much ammo as you can carry. Remember that you have to carry everything else, too, unless you can tame and saddle an elk, so your ammo will be limited!

The question being: what knife, pistol and rifle do you take along, and why? Bonus points for including stout recommendations on other gear.

[PPGMD]

No horses?

[TR675]

Nope.

[RevolverRob]

CZ 452, a stack of magazines, and a ton of .22 LR - 40-grain solids. I don't care so much about the knife, but I'd pick something thick, full tang, and a good set of ceramic and diamond stones to sharpen it. Preferably a serrated blade to go with it. I wouldn't bother with the handgun. Otherwise, several good pairs of boots/shoes knowing once they are gone, they are gone. Fire starter, thin sleeping pad, and enough silver and gold to trade into whatever I need. And I'd go as far as the Mississippi River before stopping, trading with the French and Caddo would be my focus.

-Rob

[Jeep]

CZ 452, a stack of magazines, and a ton of .22 LR - 40-grain solids. I don't care so much about the knife, but I'd pick something thick, full tang, and a good set of ceramic and diamond stones to sharpen it. Preferably a serrated blade to go with it. I wouldn't bother with the handgun. Otherwise, several good pairs of boots/shoes knowing once they are gone, they are gone. Fire starter, thin sleeping pad, and enough silver and gold to trade into whatever I need. And I'd go as far as the Mississippi River before stopping, trading with the French and Caddo would be my focus.

-Rob

Don't bet on the French. None of their permanent settlements had worked yet and they were a long way from exploring the Mississippi. I think that you might want a shotgun also.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Sonic screwdriver, Tardis, beautiful companion. That's the best other gear. Sorry!

[RevolverRob]

Don't bet on the French. None of their permanent settlements had worked yet and they were a long way from exploring the Mississippi. I think that you might want a shotgun also.

The French had settlements starting in 1600 in Canada, but you are correct, they were just beginning to move down the Mississippi. But I would still focus on that area. The Natives, primarily Caddo, where valuable trading allies and peaceable when dealing with the French and Spanish, seems like a safer place to be. By 1609 the Caddo had already been exposed multiple times to the Spanish. Plus I grew up in that area, abundant resources, remote places to shelter away, and generally good weather year round.

-Rob

[Bigguy]

Sonic screwdriver, Tardis, beautiful companion. That's the best other gear. Sorry!

Well shoot! I'd figure that's how you got there.
Also keep an eye out for daleks with mohawks.

[Lester Polfus]

This is an interesting thought experiment.

First, let's remember that North American Fauna in 1607 was very different. There were Elk all over the East Coast, as well as American Bison that would be more than happy to stomp a mudhole in ya', not to mention that the historical range of the Grizzly Bear was much bigger than it is today.

The flip side is, the numbers of critters that are tasty and good to eat were much bigger too. When we think of people foraging or "living off the land" we have visions of them shooting big critters, like deer and elk. The real money though is in small game: rabbits, grouse, pigeons, doves, racoons, porcupines, turtles, fish, etc.

So Here's what I would do.

Long gun:

A Savage 24 with a .30-30 rifle barrel, with a 12 gauge barrel underneath.

The .30-30 get's over looked but ballistically it's more than enough for deer sized game, and one lone person shooting anything bigger than that is pretty stupid. Even then we should only shoot a deer if we have time to stay awhile and jerk the meat. This round also would provide an advantage over uppity Frenchmen with flintlocks, and angry locals with bows and arrows. Yes, it's a single shot, break open rifle, but if your plan revolves around volume of fire, you need to get a new one, as I don't think it would be practical to hump more than 200 rounds of ammo or so.

That leads us to the 12 Gauge barrel. We can carry a small selection of: Brenneke slugs, Buckshot, BB shot, and 7 1/2 shot. The problem is going to be that 12 Gauge ammo is HEAVY so we aren't going to carry a bunch of it.

I'd carry 5 or so brenneke slugs for Big Bear terriroty. Giving the Bear a Brenneke, followed by a .30-30, is a start.

I'd also pack 5 rounds of 00 buckshot. That's for sleeping at night and other situations where you might encounter critters or n'er do wells at close range suddenly.

I think you could realisticly pack 100 rounds of mixed bb and 7.5 shot. That isn't very much to get you to California. I'd save that for when foraging by other means isn't going well.

Short Gun:

I'm going to pick a supressed .22 pistol. This would probably be one of the integrally supressed Ruger Mk2/Mk3 platforms out there, that has a field servicable supressor. This would be for small game hunting. You could hump a few hundred rounds of mixed Stinger, Mini-Mag, and Sub-Sonic ammo.

Knife:

I'm partial to my ESEE RC-4 for general bushcraft duties. I would want to have a good sharpener.

Other stuff:

I want a good axe. Something along the lines of a Wetterling forest axe. Couple that with a 21" Sven saw with some spare blades and you've got a light weight pair of tools that can be used to process firewood quickly, and build shelters.

A good quality modern recurve bow, with about a dozen arrows, with an assortment of broadheads, field points, and judo points, along with some extra strings. This is silent, and most of the time the arrows are recoverable.

A good Wiggys or Kifaru sleeping bag. Synthetic. I'd err on the side of too warm.

Some kind of shelter. A good tarp, again ala Wiggys or Kifaru, or maybe a bivy.

Some good boots that fit my feet. Danners usually work good for me.

A qualty set of rain gear. Camouflage.

Wool Midlayers. Maybe some polypro long underwear. Some good synthetic backpackign socks. A good wool cold weather hat and a nice broad brimmed sun hat. Some heavy gloves with light weight liners.

A good stainless steel pot. A magnesium fire starter. A compass.

I'd want a comprehensive, lightweight guide to edible plants. That's gonna be tough. You might wind up having to carry two Peterson's, one for East, and one for West, and figure out how to keep them dry. I'd memorize those bad boys by the fire at night.

I'd want an assortment of Sea to Summit Event compression dry sacks. They aren't perfect, but they are light.

I'd also want some drugs. They don't sell them at Cabela's, but some good, broad spectrum antibiotics would be a good thing to have.

I love camelbacks, but for long term, I'd want a couple of quality stainless steel water bottles.

To carry all this, you'd need a bomber pack. I'm thinking something like an Eberlestock Battleship, with a gun scabbard attachment. When you are toting the bow the Savage 24 can go in there. When toting the Savage, the unstrung bow should ride nicely in the scabbard.

All that stuff is going to be heavy, and by the time you make it to California, quite a bit of it is going to be used up or broken. But its definitely enough to bootstrap you along your way.

What it would really take is knowledge and some awesome outdoors skills.

[farscott]

For the rifle, I would pick a T/C Contender with two 21" barrels, a .22 LR and a .357 Magnum, with a synthetic stock. Both barrels would have Williams Foolproof peep rear sights and a Lyman front globe sight. That is what I use now for small-game hunting, so I know it works. The assembled rifle weighs about five pounds. I would bring a spare Contender action as well. I know I can carry a few to five bricks of .22 40-grain solid standard velocity ammo or subsonic .22 LR with no issue. The .357 brass would have to be reloaded as loaded .357 is heavy and bulky, especially in the 158-grain lead SWC I like. That means I need a Lee Loader, some bullet moulds, lead wheel weights, primers, and powder. One of the reasons for .357 is that it can be easily reloaded with a Lee Loader; otherwise, I might be tempted to go for a .243 Winchester Encore or Browning 1885. The other issue with the Encore is changing from centerfire to rimfire is not as easy as flipping the switch on the Contender hammer. The 1885 is also centerfire only, giving the nod to the Contender.

Not sure I would bring a pistol, but if I did it would be a stainless Ruger Mark II. Knife would be something fixed in 420C or 440C stainless as it can be sharpened on just about anything. No wonder steel that needs diamonds to be sharpened.

Outerwear would be Filson as nothing is better in the brush. Quiet and tear resistant (unlike modern tech gear) and can carry ammo and game in Cruiser pocket. Boots would be a pair of Wesco Jobmasters. Need some Obenauf's LP to keep the boots going. More than a few pair of wool socks would come along as well. I would need spare sets of eyeglasses and hats to protect my scalp from sunburn.

Need a decent compass and a good set of maps to navigate and one heck of a first aid/survival kit. Something to purify water (and cook) like a stove and a small Lodge dutch oven, some water purification tablets for emergencies, and a ton of antibiotics, colloidal silver, and aspirin.

Need a wheelbarrow to carry it all as I have not even covered shelter or food.

[Lester Polfus]

Oh, that's an interesting point about the Lee Loader. Hmmmm. Savage did make a 24 in .357/ 20 Gauge. The .357 out of a rifle length barrel is still a contender out to 100 yards, and lighter than .30-30 to boot. 20 gauge ammo is lighter too. As GJM recently pointed out, the Brennke 20 Gauge slug has a higher sectional density than the 12 Gauge. You'd give up some effectiveness from the buckshot though....

Also with a Lee Loader, you could use locally procured black powder too....

Edited to add: I also see that Lee makes a Lee Loader for .30-30. That and a bullet mold, and some primers might be a good thing to have.

[TheRoland]

Bonus points for including stout recommendations on other gear.

Young's Double Chocolate Stout and Left Hand Milk Stout. Not sure how much you could carry, but you can always ditch the less important stuff (tent, sleeping bag, water, blah blah blah) to make room.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Ok, I'll play for real. The biggest problem is carrying enough ammo. 50 rounds of Elk, grizzly killer is heavy - carrying a great deal - nope. You will need quite a bit.

Thus, I suggest a 22 Mag lever action rifle and all the ammo, you can tote. If you want a back up handgun, take one of those long barrel NAA revolver. Avoid monster fauna.

I'd also take antibiotics, fire starter and water purification. Extra footgear and underpants. Knife - do you really need a monster - a couple of quality medium size in case you lose one. Spoken by one who has seen the fancy knife disappear into the night.

[TR675]

Young's Double Chocolate Stout and Left Hand Milk Stout. Not sure how much you could carry, but you can always ditch the less important stuff (tent, sleeping bag, water, blah blah blah) to make room.

Like.

[MDS]

Jo
What it would really take is knowledge and some awesome outdoors skills.

Quoted for truth. With knowledge you'd only really need a decent knife - not as comfortable maybe compared to having a pack full of the latest gear, but then you wouldn't have to lug that stuff around. A good knife and some books may make it a lot harder for the first few months, but it might be the best choice long term - stay put for a while to learn and practice key skills, then head out slowly while the knowledge and skill set grows....

....but that's a different game. I'll play this one. :)

Knife would be any bomber Bushcraft knife. Since this is the magic whatever you want thread, I'll choose a Turley Green River. I just got a Tom Brown Tracker that could impersonate a whole slew of sharps, but I'm not sure I'm sold on it yet. If I could bring multiple sharps it would be two Turleys, two gb small forest axes, two silky saws, and two sak hikers for unzipping trout and etc.

As for fire power, I think I'd like both guns to shoot the same caliber. So let me do a little math. I need to walk 3000 miles. At my peak I could cover about 25 miles of hilly country in a day with about a 40# load, that's with the right boots and comfy underwear and all that. So let's say I average 10 miles a day. That's a year of walking - not counting waiting for the mountains to open up if things aren't timed perfectly, or time spent in one place to heal, rest, trade, or whatever. I think it's a 2-year journey.

If I shoot all my meat, let's say I bag two bunnies a day, that's 1400 rounds of 22. That's, what, 12 pounds? Poor defensive capability, but then again, from a suppressed 22lr carbine it could be very effective against humans and if I'm allowed spare parts and bear spray this carbine plus a 22 handgun (I'm inclined towards a 617 for chunky reliability) plus 2-3k rounds could really make the most of the weight.

In contrast, 9mm and 223 both weigh about 3.5 times what 22lr does. So screw 9mm, I'll bring a suppressed ar pistol and a quality ar if I don't do 22lr. I can kill bigger game occasionally, might be good to break for a few days to process the meat and rest, then hump from dusk to dawn without stopping to hunt for a few days, then kill a bigger animal and repeat. Wouldn't need as much ammo for meat. Would hit harder for bear defense but it would take a bigger percentage of my ammo if I need to shoot something a lot.

I dunno, it seems to come out in the wash. I'd lean toward the 223 duo and just roll carefully across the continent.

Additional gear would be like 20 ferro rods, tons of good underwear (which is hard to make,) a bunch of tough cloth and a decent sewing kit, a couple/three Source bladders and a couple of small stew pots. It's so nice to think that I don't have to worry about water purification! A well-stocked fishing kit. Some maps and a couple of hardened compasses. A couple of good tarps, some 550 cord. Some tough good glass, say vortex 10x's. A bomber -20 sleeping bag, a few biners. Umm, mechanix gloves. OK, I'm going beyond the spirit of the game now, I'll stop.

Fun! :)

[Drang]

trading with the French and Caddo would be my focus.
No French.
And at this point, none of the plains tribes as we knew them existed as we knew them (no, that's not redundant), because none of them had stolen horses from the Spanish yet.
In the early 17th Century, your biggest threat is probably going to be the Spanish Inquisition. Or Griz, or buffalo stampedes, or snakes.
Or the weather.

[NerdAlert]

I'm alone, in the wilderness, with only natives, animals, mountains, and a couple big rivers between me and paradise? I'd take a Becker bk2 knife, grizzly custom guns modified 1895 marlin guide gun with a supressor, and a MkIII with a supressor. My reasoning is that the .22 can be used for small and medium game up close, the guide gun should easily handle bison, griz, or any two legged predators. The bk2 is a pretty tough all around knife. For other gear, I'd take a GB short axe, 10x10 tarp, good first aid kit, good boots, cold weather gear, rain gear, water containers, wide brim hat, sunglasses, fishing tackle, wool sweater, a good pair of field shears, and an iPad loaded with every bit if bushcraft, medical, power generation, metal and wood working, and general knowledge books I could fit in it, plus a hand crank charger for it. In any situation outdoors knowledge is power, and I would definitely want as much of that as I could carry, the iPad seems like the best there. With enough knowledge
and the enterprising population that initially pushed out west, I would build a national superpower that would still be around today. Or some Native would kill me and take my stuff.


Sent from my iPhone, I apologize in advance for typos.

[Aray]

The water wouldn't all be good I don't think, Giardiasis would be a concern in most of the east until you got across Appalachia except for the high spots.

[MDS]

The water wouldn't all be good I don't think, Giardiasis would be a concern in most of the east until you got across Appalachia except for the high spots.
Great. I thought giardia was rare until much more recently.

"You have died of dysentery."

[NerdAlert]

I agree that water borne illness would have been an issue, and killed many of the settlers that pushed west. Water purification would be a prudent precaution, thankfully there are light filters and iodine tablets that could handle the task.


Sent from my iPhone, I apologize in advance for typos.

[Josh Runkle]

I'd take a modern muzzleloader that I could make powder and bullets for. I'd take a suppressed .22lr pistol and about 10,000 rds. I'd take a machete instead of a knife, and not the BS kind you buy in the US, but one you can actually sharpen with a file.

[NerdAlert]

I'm left wondering why so many are not taking some kind of repeating arm for the long gun. I understand that volume of fire will be low, but with all the tech we have now why use a single shot break when you could have a light handy bolt gun or lever gun in a caliber that can be reloaded with black powder and lead bullets? There are so many options in 45-70, 30-30, 357, 44 mag, etc etc I am just trying to wrap my mind around NOT wanting a repeating rifle.


Sent from my iPhone, I apologize in advance for typos.

[HCM]

I'm left wondering why so many are not taking some kind of repeating arm for the long gun. I understand that volume of fire will be low, but with all the tech we have now why use a single shot break when you could have a light handy bolt gun or lever gun in a caliber that can be reloaded with black powder and lead bullets? There are so many options in 45-70, 30-30, 357, 44 mag, etc etc I am just trying to wrap my mind around NOT wanting a repeating rifle.

30-30 was a smokeless powder load, but yes if I'm going to be tied to needing primers, a lever gun and a bullet mold makes more sense.

[idahojess]

In the early 17th Century, your biggest threat is probably going to be the Spanish Inquisition. Or Griz, or buffalo stampedes, or snakes.
Or the weather.

I bet disease would be a real factor, too. I've read malaria was a real issue in the early colonies. I'd bring lots of bug spray and mosquito nets. Maybe some ddt (joking).

[Drang]

I'm left wondering why so many are not taking some kind of repeating arm for the long gun.

Because you're trying to get from the Chesapeake Bay region across several mountain ranges, major rivers, and deserts on foot.
Firepower is the least of your worries; remember, Lewis and Clark made it there and back again and only had one hostile encounter with natives. Most of the shots they fired were the air gun they used for hunting. The one man they lost dies of a burst appendix.


I bet disease would be a real factor, too. I've read malaria was a real issue in the early colonies. I'd bring lots of bug spray and mosquito nets. Maybe some ddt (joking).
You're right, I should have included disease in my taxonomy of dangers.
DDT is not the unmitigated evil it is made out to be, but I'm not sure how much help it would be under these conditions.

Frankly, if I knew this was going to be happening to me, I'd be showing up at Jamestown or Plymouth with several footlockers full of lifeboat rations, good vitamin supplements, means of water purification, and enough firepower to put myself in charge. The goal would be to get the idiots to stop wasting their time hunting gold and get to work surviving; in addition to the tools above, I'd have printed out homesteading manuals on water- and tear-resistant paper. Also a selection of not-yet-published political treatises...

In 1607 the entire world is entering a "Starving Time": Global Crisis - Kindle edition by Geoffrey Parker. Politics & Social Sciences Kindle eBooks @ Amazon.com. (http://www.amazon.com/Global-Crisis-Geoffrey-Parker-ebook/dp/B00BQZ1UHK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1410281899&sr=8-1&keywords=geoffrey+parker+global+crisis)
($23+ for a Kindle Edition? Really? Glad I was able to get it from the library...)

Variations on this meme ("Variations on a Meme", sounds like a blog...) have been done and over-done on various buckskinner and prepping fora. As gedanken experiments, they can be fun, but it's also easy to overthink (uberdank?) them. OTOH, with the right community you can learn a lot from them as folks pick your assumptions apart.
Pick away. :cool:

[NerdAlert]

Because you're trying to get from the Chesapeake Bay region across several mountain ranges, major rivers, and deserts on foot.


I guess I was thinking that getting there is only part of the equation, with setting up "libertaria" being the other half. Even on a cross country trek I would think that a long arm capable of taking a follow up shot would be nice to have given the choice. It's not like a lever gun or bolt gun weighs THAT much more than a single shot.


Sent from my iPhone, I apologize in advance for typos.

[TGS]

I guess I was thinking that getting there is only part of the equation, with setting up "libertaria" being the other half. Even on a cross country trek I would think that a long arm capable of taking a follow up shot would be nice to have given the choice. It's not like a lever gun or bolt gun weighs THAT much more than a single shot.


Sent from my iPhone, I apologize in advance for typos.

And to boot, an intermediate caliber AR15 can weigh just the same...or less.

[LOKNLOD]

I'd get a properly setup AR & Glock, as much ammo as I could squeeze in the time anomaly with me, and layer up with good all-weather clothes and boots. Water purification setup. Fire starting.

Plus a bunch of those sacks of candy they keep near the front (at Bass Pro, at least -- never been in an actual Cabela's store). Because I like candy.

Screw walking across the country solo, I'm just going to clear out and take over an area on the east cost for now. If anyone around you suddenly disappears, its because I found their ancestors annoying.


Truth be told, unless I can grab a can of "eye surgery" on my way though the worm hole, I'm going to be uber-fubared in about 24 hours when my disposable contacts stop being friendly with my eyeballs, and suddenly the world looks like a Monet painting covered in wax paper.

[farscott]

I'm left wondering why so many are not taking some kind of repeating arm for the long gun. I understand that volume of fire will be low, but with all the tech we have now why use a single shot break when you could have a light handy bolt gun or lever gun in a caliber that can be reloaded with black powder and lead bullets? There are so many options in 45-70, 30-30, 357, 44 mag, etc etc I am just trying to wrap my mind around NOT wanting a repeating rifle.


Sent from my iPhone, I apologize in advance for typos.

My answer on the single-shot rifle is weight, both for the rifle and ammo, length (single-shot is much shorter than a repeater for the same barrel length), the desire to use iron sights (or not the rely on a scope), the ability to fire both centerfire and rimfire ammo from the same action, and the fact that I need to recover as much brass as possible to reload it. Lots of great bolt and lever actions out there, but working the action ejects, not extracts, the brass. Brass can easily be lost in tall grass, which is what much of country was covered with at that time. Heck, I have lost brass in my own manicured backyard.

[Hambo]

OK, this one is pretty original so I'll get in the game. First, I hope I got a water filter at Cabelas. Giardia, dysentary, parasites, cholera...no bueno.

Long gun-A Brockman .45-70 lever gun with a bullet mold and 3K primers. You can cast bullets, use black powder, cases will last as long as you will, and you can load it with a block of wood and a punch.

Handgun-a large caliber (.62-.75) flintlock smoothbore, which should be common the era. Load shot for small game close, big heavy round ball for defense.

Knife-a good carbon steel blade about 4-5" long.

[Chuck Whitlock]

Since running out of ammo is bad juju, can we vote for a good crossbow, possibly with a magnified optic?

[greyghost]

The thread reminded me of Heinlein's Tunnel in the Sky, which is one of his overlooked works which ties into this idea.

Time to for a re-read.

[Drang]

I'd get a properly setup AR & Glock, as much ammo as I could squeeze in the time anomaly with me...
Interesting to see how many are arming themselves for combat versus for hunting.

OK, this one is pretty original so I'll get in the game. First, I hope I got a water filter at Cabelas. Giardia, dysentary, parasites, cholera...no bueno.
A lot of these are primarily of concern in developed areas. But, yeah...


Handgun-a large caliber (.62-.75) flintlock smoothbore, which should be common the era.
Actually, this is matchlock/wheellock time, flintlocks have not been developed. (First started showing up in the English Civil War era, used at the time mostly to guard artillery trains, as they were less likely to cause massive kabooms, relative to matchlock arquebuses.)

The thread reminded me of Heinlein's Tunnel in the Sky, which is one of his overlooked works which ties into this idea.
Thanks, if someone else didn't mention it, I was going to. :cool:

[Totem Polar]

Maybe because I'm in a mood, I'll say: pump 20 gauge and a Daniel winkler small Bowie. Forget the handgun. Add a small blowout kit, some antibiotics, a water filter and some good modern garb, and that's about as much as I'd want to haul.

[NH Shooter]

Interesting to see how many are arming themselves for combat versus for hunting.



Perhaps because one of the most likely ways to die would remain from a 2-legged predator, so I'll take the technology that is most useful for both protection and hunting: a suppressed SBR AR in 300 Blackout with a RDS/BUIS (about 7.5 pounds), and a suppressed .22 pistol with night sights. I'd also take a lightweight hatchet and folding knife. Yes to all of the water filtration/antibiotic stuff too, but since this is a gun forum I'm figuring that is the focus of this hypothetical discussion.

FWIW, I'm not heading to the west coast - I'll find a nice spot on the east coast to settle down, not too far from other European settlers.

[Lester Polfus]

In the early 17th Century, your biggest threat is probably going to be the Spanish Inquisition.

No one expects the Spanish Inquisition...

[Malamute]

Thanks for bringing up Tunnel in the Sky, I hadn't heard of it before. It somewhat reminds me of Pratchetts The Long Earth books. I liked them.

Back on topic, I don't think being prepared for fighting is entirely out of line, though some of the rational for the most modern weapons wouldn't be quite as much of an issue when the rest of the world was in matchlock/flintlock/ stone tipped bows and arrows period. I don't think I would go ANYWHERE without a good pistol, either self loader or revolver in that period. A hunting capable rifle would be good, with obvious defensive capabilities. A Winchester 94 carbine would cover a lot of ground, very easy to carry, ammo weight isn't crazy heavy, and very reliable under adverse conditions. A 92 in 357 may work, but I like the 30-30 more for all around hunting use. A 22 pistol of some sort would be good, for making meat, finishing shots on larger game or whatever. I'd be strongly inclined towards a 4" K-22 or a Ruger auto with shorter barrel. I think I'd just as soon have the weight in ammo as reloading supplies if on foot. Some lighter rifle loads, full steam stuff for making meat on larger animals and defense, some pistol and 22 shells. Ammo adds up very quickly weight wise. Maybe 200 rds for rifle, 75-100 for pistol, and 500 for 22. Night sights sound like a good idea. A scope that could be removed and replaced on the carbine would be good, and save ammo in the long run.

Besides basic woodsman abilities, one would need to be able to make clothes and such after a time. It isn't that complicated to brain tan skins, but it isn't something to try to figure out on the go.

I'm also not sure about travelling across the country, but if one had a map and an idea where you were, then going down some of the rivers would simplify a great deal of it in the east, and past the continental divide. Horses sure would be nice though.

[NerdAlert]

I tend to agree that a confrontation with natives/settlers is a concern. The only reason I didn't go semi auto for the long gun is that smokeless powder and jacketed bullets are pretty much a no go. 45-70 brass on the other hand will outlast me, so 200 rounds with 5k primers and a bullet mold would last indefinitely. I went semi auto with the rim fire pistol due to the fact that I could carry enough ammo to feed it for years and years (if used sparingly) In a tube sock. I can feel for the gearing up for battle scenario, but consider this. If the colonists really wanted to overrun you 2-300 men with matchlocks would be pretty tough to dispatch if they charged en masse. Maybe if you are going the "dig in on the east coast and fight" route you should bring something belt fed, a few hundred k rounds and a whole bunch of sandbags and level IV body armor instead of an AR and a Glock.


Sent from my iPhone, I apologize in advance for typos.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

The Long Earth jumping between worlds had a limit on no iron, IIRC - so they had to make nonferrous guns. Interesting problem.

Take a digital camera and sun powered charger so you can steal the soul of the folks you run into and be a GOD.

You need gun that allows you to carry LOTS of ammo. Some are suggesting rather heavy rounds. Fighting is not a good one here - avoidance is better. Bunnies yes - bears NO.

[TGS]

I'm with sidhesshooter. Forget the pistol. If you're after small game, trapping is the way to go.

An SBR AR15 in 300 is a good choice. Guys, remember we are not talking about bringing AR15s for firefights. ARs do everything your 8Lbs legacy repeating rifle does, except better and lighter....there's no reason to NOT take one except for preconceived notions that you're looking to get into a firefight if you're carrying an AR, which in my opinion is a straw an argument. The only exception being the use of soft lead bullets, which is a very good point.

[Malamute]

I've carried and used AR's in the field a fair amount over a number of years as well as lever guns and bolt actions. I don't think AR's do anything a lever or bolt does and better as a field gun. I find them bulky and awkward in general compared to the "legacy" guns when carrying one in hand a lot.

[NerdAlert]

there's no reason to NOT take one except for preconceived notions that you're looking to get into a firefight if you're carrying an AR, which in my opinion is a straw an argument. The only exception being the use of soft lead bullets, which is a very good point.

I was thinking in terms of you are going where smokeless powder and jacketed bullets don't exist, and won't for a long time. Unless you are packing all the knowledge to create the current ammo infrastructure it would make sense to bring a firearm that a) can use black powder and b) can use molded bullets. Most autos won't cycle with black powder loads, so that's the reason I discount the AR/Glock concept. An AR that becomes a straight pull bolt gun is much less ergonomic than a lever gun or traditional bolt gun, despite it's edge in capacity. I would say that a 45-70 is indeed a heavy round but it can be reloaded with available components (minus primers) so I would be comfortable with a much smaller quantity of pre loaded ammo than I would be with a modern smokeless rifle caliber for an indefinite stay in the 1600s. If not a 45-70 then a 357 or 44 mag would be ok also.

ETA: I looked it up and an 1895 guide gun weighs 7lbs, which is lighter than some ARs anyway.


Sent from my iPhone, I apologize in advance for typos.

[Malamute]

I was thinking in terms of you are going where smokeless powder and jacketed bullets don't exist, and won't for a long time. Unless you are packing all the knowledge to create the current ammo infrastructure it would make sense to bring a firearm that a) can use black powder and b) can use molded bullets...

A Winchester 94 in 38-55, 32 win Spl, or a 92 in 45 Colt or 44-40 would all work reasonably well with black and cast bullets. The last two would have ammo compatibility with a handgun as well. I've carried 45-70 ammo around on foot, its pretty danged heavy.

[NH Shooter]

I guess much depends on how many rounds you will need over your expected lifetime in "the new world." I'm already 60 so between self defense and whacking a white tail from time to time, a few hundred rounds might do it. Another thing to consider is picking up a commonly-available firearm when you "arrive" and save the 21st century weaponry for critical use.

I hear older guys have a better chance with younger women back in those days too. :-)

[MDS]

I'm already 60 [...] I hear older guys have a better chance with younger women back in those days too. :-)

At that time, "older" didn't mean 60. If anyone knew your age and saw you smile, for example, they'd kidnap you to study your teeth. ;)

(ETA: OMG, I just realized, I need to pack like 100 toothbrushes!)


The only reason I didn't go semi auto for the long gun is that smokeless powder and jacketed bullets are pretty much a no go.

Why is it a no-go? You can get 1K rounds of 223 (or 9mm) for 30 pounds. From a semiauto rifle, that's probably enough to stop a charge from 100yd by every able-bodied man in any town, even if they kept charging to the death. (Consider that, according to the census (http://www2.census.gov/prod2/statcomp/documents/CT1970p2-13.pdf), there were 350 colonists in what is now the US in 1610.) Now, I agree that if my goal is, as postulated in the OP, to reach California alive and healthy, then avoiding a fight is much better than fighting. But with a few 30-round mags, a reliable AR, and some skill, I might give 50/50 odds against a settlement at the time. The natives might be a different story, I don't know enough history to say. But if they take you by surprise then your arsenal won't help, and if they don't take you by surprise, you can sure come up with some powerful tactics given the situation. (E.g., if you take one shot every second, the enemy is very likely to think that there's a whole lot of disciplined fighters bunched up together and shooting at them...)

But I think your larger point is this idea that the firepower needs to last forever. I didn't take the game that way - the goal was to reach California. If I need a period firearm in my stable life once I reach the left coast ... I can acquire one in-theater, so to speak.

Also, I forgot to mention. I'd like to bring some modern recipes and ingredients (or at least the seeds for ingredients) to make good beer. There are other, arguably more powerful, ways to conquer besides guns. If I can bring a modern metallurgy textbook, I could be the real Hank Reardon. :D

[RevolverRob]

But I think your larger point is this idea that the firepower needs to last forever. I didn't take the game that way - the goal was to reach California. If I need a period firearm in my stable life once I reach the left coast ... I can acquire one in-theater, so to speak.

Not in California in 1611...The Spanish didn't establish most of their colonies until the 18th century and California wasn't recognized as anything worth governing until 1697. There will be no one besides natives to trade with in California.

If you need a firearm, that you don't bring with you - And that's debatable - it will have to come from Jamestown as that is likely the last major white settlement you will encounter. Next time you see white people with guns on your trip, they'll either be French or Spanish. If they are French you can probably do some trading, if they are Spanish, you'll have to do some running and hiding.

Personally, the longer I think about this, the more I think about glass and brass beads, gold, silver, and a bunch of super high quality laminated maps of various kinds, topographic, geologic, and mineral come to mind. That and an extensive history book, a blacksmithing/metallurgy book might be good too.

[MDS]

Not in California in 1611...

Hmm, the 1611 semiautomatic pistol, a long-lived design by MDS. I like the sound of that! ;)

[Josh Runkle]

But I think your larger point is this idea that the firepower needs to last forever. I didn't take the game that way - the goal was to reach California. If I need a period firearm in my stable life once I reach the left coast ... I can acquire one in-theater, so to speak.



Remember that this is a 3-5 year trip. You probably can't safely travel during winter. This means that by October, you're building a semi-permanent structure, and you're staying put until April. You won't have the ability to can any vegetables or fruits, so you will live almost exclusively off of fish, nuts and game. If you don't have a way to smoke and salt the meat set up, then you'll be spending a lot of time hunting.

[Malamute]

Salting isn't required to preserve meat, just drying it. Smoke is mostly needed to keep flies off of it while it dries. Jerky, in its original and most basic form is simply dried meat. The stuff we see today, and the way many people make it today is more of a novelty or snack food than a primary food staple. All that's needed it a way to hang it, like a rack of thin poles (I've used bailing string) and a dry climate or enough time to get it dry. Smoke would help in a damp climate. Some places people would hang their drying meat above the living area, so the normal cooking/heating fires would help dry the meat. Its a big job though, cutting up and drying a large animal like a buffalo, or several buffalos.

Black powder loads were mentioned in regards to self loaders. Actually, there have been several youtubes of people that have loaded black powder loads in 1911's and perhaps Glocks. They actually worked fairly well, at least for the first 50 rds or so. An AR may not be the best gun to try black powder with, though it would probably work OK for at least a few rounds. Black powder cleans up easier than most seem to think. Even cold water breaks it up, though warm water helps.

[overton]

Can I take Andrew Skurka? And some native carriers?

reading his thruhike accounts, I am not sure that
crossing the US is doable in a 1600 seting.