Which AR do you recommend to folks?

[WDW]

Just curious as to what people's opinions & preferences are. When someone asks me which AR they should get, I typically respond with Colt, BCM, or Daniel Defense & to top it with an Aimpoint PRO. I recently just picked up a DDM4V5 & and am really digging that rifle.

[orionz06]

What are they gonna do with it? The AR I would suggest to the guy who has a budget of $650 and wants to shoot a box of ammo a year will be different from what I tell the guy who has $3000 and wants to Larp in a shemagh class.

[WDW]

Me personally, I don't really care what they're gonna do with it. I don't recommend guns I wouldn't own myself. I see no reason to drop $700 on a bushmaster or Windham and not $800-$900 on a new Colt. I also see no point in spending $3000 on an AR, when a DD or BCM is available for $1k and will accomplish 99% of what a higher end gun will.

[orionz06]

What they will do with it matters a lot. They can spend $700 on an M&P that will likely be fine or they can decide to shoot CMP/High Power and their $1000 BCM won't shoot nearly as well for that purpose as a cheaper gun will. Purpose matters. If one has no defined purpose and the budget for it a BCM or Colt seems just fine.

[WDW]

I get purpose matters, but 99% of folks have no purpose. If they do, it's usually training/defensive in nature. I'm just a proponent of the quality, all around carbine that will fill most roles well, but not necessarily expertly, like a G17/34...not the best, not the worst, but definitely good enough.

[Suvorov]

Actually get this question a lot from co-workers.

All depends on budget and intended usage.

For those who are wanting to get into one for as little as possible, I suggest the M&P sport which despite having some drawbacks has a good reputation, a solid company backing it up and a good barrel. It'll do 99% of what most buyers of a MSR want.

For those wanting more but still keeping it sub $1000 - I recommend a used upper level gun or any of the M&P or Sig M400 guns. Or alternately talking about building a lower and using a quality upper or sourcing mo-better parts.

For those wanting/willing to spend more that $1000 - I recommend the usual suspects, BCM, Colt, DD, Novesky.

Those wanting a piston gun I tell them to buy a DI gun. If they still have to have a piston gun, I recommend the Sig516 as it is fairly inexpensive and is the only one I have much experience with (and that experience has been very positive).

Optics - again it depends on their needs, but I caution against cheap Chinese crap.

People listen to me about 25-50% of the time :o(

I recently "adopted" a DD mid length and a NIB Smith M&P10T which I look forward to running once I'm done with my 516.

[WDW]

The good thing about the post panic AR market is that high quality guns are available for low low prices. I got my DDM4V5 new, out the door for $1k...a normally $1,500 rifle. 6920's are everywhere for under $900 & M&P's are easily obtainable for $800 & less.

[BoppaBear]

I love my Barnes Precision Machine AR. It's not one of the big names at the moment, but it's a fine rifle.

Added bonus is that it's made in my home state, and an hour away.

[ranger]

I get this question all the time from non-shooters or new shooters - I recommend the S&W M&P AR as a starter AR. Unfortunately, they then either buy a "cheaper" AR that they are not satisfied with or a much more expensive rifle that just sits in the safe (or closet). However, sometimes I get a chance at a deal on the more expensive AR (or pistol or shotgun) when they get tired of the pricey toy in the safe (or closet) and sell at a much lower price.

[Molon]

Just curious as to what people's opinions & preferences are.

I'd recommend this.

https://app.box.com/shared/static/9uuxuwk4t32eg17hphte.jpg



I'd also recommend this . . .

https://app.box.com/shared/static/zhk7ukn5nqe61ibst62d.jpg



. . . and this.

https://app.box.com/shared/static/2y7ylstracq2sx9ucvj1.jpg



Or this . . .

https://app.box.com/shared/static/8qf8cqbhz9xyc43c72ns.jpg



. . . or this . . .

https://app.box.com/shared/static/2a4eecabfbxfvmm7ny70.jpg




. . . or this . . .

https://app.box.com/shared/static/39021srrm4k0uft88xg2.jpg




. . . or this.

https://app.box.com/shared/static/85ksjl52b36k4pnaxdnk.jpg



As orionz06 stated, "purpose matters." One of the great things about the AR-15 platform is that it is easily configured to suit a variety of roles.


...

[LittleLebowski]

Colt or M&P.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

I have found Colts and BCMs to run well. If I had to recommend a slightly cheaper option, I guess I'd probably go M&P. But you don't save enough to make deviating from the 6920 all that worthwhile, if what you want is a general purpose carbine.

I don't have enough experience with precision ARs to recommend one in particular.

I do have some solid experience with short ARs, but nothing freakishly short enough to take me in a significant direction away from Colt or BCM. I wouldn't hesitate to run a DD Mk18, but that's not falling far from the TDP tree.

In general, when people ask me about guns, I just interrupt them and say "6920 and 9mm Glock". If you have a specific reason an F150 and a Corolla won't work for you, you probably already know what you need instead.

[Drang]

...wants to Larp in a shemagh class.
LOL! Not sayin' I'm stealin' this... but I'm not sayin' I won't.

...If you have a specific reason an F150 and a Corolla won't work for you, you probably already know what you've decided to buy instead.

FIFY.
Doesn't matter how much I argue the Judge is an egregious piece of marketeering, they still buy the thing because someone told them how devastating a .410 round is. Including my current boss, a retired Seattle cop.
("But he's a retired cop, he must know these things!" "And when what I say reinforces your pre-conceived notions, you'll tell anyone who disagrees with you 'He's retired Army, he knows these things!'" This turns out to be a very good way to get people to not pester you with silly questions...)

[ReverendMeat]

Been selling guns for a few years. Depends on one’s budget:

$1k or under:
Colt 6920
S&W M&P-15 Sport
SIG M400

$1k-$1.5k:
BCM
Daniel Defense
Spikes
PWS if you want a piston gun
Noveske Skinny MOE
LMT
S&W M&P-15 MID or TS
Some smaller shops are doing good guns in this price range too, e.g. Sionics (AZ) or Rainier Arms (WA)

$1.5k+:
All other Noveske minus Skinny MOE. Big fan of their Rogue Hunter.
S&W M&P 15 VTAC
Honorable mention: KAC.

Overall, if I had to pick one and only one, I’d likely go with BCM.

[DocGKR]

For LE or defensive use, Colt, BCM, KAC would be my first choices. DD, LMT, Noveske, and maybe S&W would be OK.

[Suvorov]

For LE or defensive use, Colt, BCM, KAC would be my first choices. DD, LMT, Noveske, and maybe S&W would be OK.

Doc, have you gotten any feedback on how the CHP is liking their M400s?

[DocGKR]

Not enough data yet...

[orionz06]

If you have a specific reason an F150 and a Corolla won't work for you, you probably already know what you need instead.

Very much this.

[MechEng]

I usually just say get something with a 16” barrel from Colt, DD, BCM, Larue, etc… Spend the money on an Aimpoint and you will be happy. Then nine times out of ten they get a Bushmaster and put some cheap reddot on it like an NcStar.

Side note: The worst place to send anyone who is in the market for their first AR is a gun show.

[ASH556]

For LE or defensive use, Colt, BCM, KAC would be my first choices. DD, LMT, Noveske, and maybe S&W would be OK.

Doc, curious as to why DD is in the "OK" bucket. Have you seen some issues?

Until this weekend I've told folks that if they're not going to spend the $900-$1000 on a Colt 6920, they'd be better off buying a $600 M&P Sport. There's nothing in the $800 range worth owning in my opinion. The $600 Sport is more correct to TDP than Bushmaster, Windham, RRA, etc. However, I went to install a rail on a customer's Sport this Saturday and when I put the barrel wrench on the nut to remove it, the nut moved. Bottom line, it was not even hand-tight from the factory. That's a scary QC slip. I suppose I'll have to add an asterisk to that recommendation now.

[LittleLebowski]

Is BCM selling a basic complete rifle or do you still have to find a good lower to match a BCM upper?

[ASH556]

Is BCM selling a basic complete rifle or do you still have to find a good lower to match a BCM upper?

From what I've seen, BCM doesn't sell them direct. You have to go through a distributor (G&R is the only one I know of) to get their lower receivers/complete rifles. For that reason I hesitate to mention them to folks looking to buy an off-the-shelf rifle. Same for PSA (not in the same quality league as BCM, but great deals. You just have to be willing to do the online shopping/transfer thing).

[LittleLebowski]

From what I've seen, BCM doesn't sell them direct. You have to go through a distributor (G&R is the only one I know of) to get their lower receivers/complete rifles. For that reason I hesitate to mention them to folks looking to buy an off-the-shelf rifle. Same for PSA (not in the same quality league as BCM, but great deals. You just have to be willing to do the online shopping/transfer thing).

Agreed. I will say my BCM upper/PSA lower build locks up solid. High quality on all parts although the lower is full of stuff like a KAC ambi mag release, BAD CASS ambi safety, and ALG QMS trigger.

[WDW]

Budsgunshop.com sells complete, factory BCM rifles...at a nice price too!

[LittleLebowski]

Budsgunshop.com sells complete, factory BCM rifles...at a nice price too!

Nice find!

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/36_1200/products_id/411551360/BCM+MID-16+MOD+0+5.56+16+30RD

[ranger]

Been selling guns for a few years. Depends on one’s budget:

$1k or under:
Colt 6920
S&W M&P-15 Sport
SIG M400

$1k-$1.5k:
BCM
Daniel Defense
Spikes
PWS if you want a piston gun
Noveske Skinny MOE
LMT
S&W M&P-15 MID or TS
Some smaller shops are doing good guns in this price range too, e.g. Sionics (AZ) or Rainier Arms (WA)

$1.5k+:
All other Noveske minus Skinny MOE. Big fan of their Rogue Hunter.
S&W M&P 15 VTAC
Honorable mention: KAC.

Overall, if I had to pick one and only one, I’d likely go with BCM.

I have one of the original S&W M&P VTAC rifle packages (the carbine gas system) and it is an amazing package right out of the box. I used it for a couple of carbine classes - just added my EOTECH. It was a good deal made even better with a $100 MIL rebate (plus they had a deal for several free MAGPUL mags). If I was in the market for another AR I would look at the newer S&W M&P VTAC with the mid-length gas.

[Vinh]

My recommendations:

If you want ready-to-run, KAC SR-15.

If you want to customize, Colt 6920.

[JodyH]

Colt 6920 M4
FN FN-15 M4
Both are right at $1000, both will run straight out of the box, both have the details nailed down solid.

[Sigfan26]

Fn15
S&W Mid Length MagPul
Colt 6920
Colt 6720
Primary Weapons Systems (either the MK116 for piston or their new "Modern Musket" for DI)

[DocGKR]

I suspect FN will be very good quality, but like Sig, we have not seen enough of them for sufficient time to know for sure.

[WDW]

I suspect FN will be very good quality, but like Sig, we have not seen enough of them for sufficient time to know for sure.

I heard the commercial FN AR's weren't up to spec like the offerings from Colt. Things like non-FA BCG's, barrel twists, QC inspections, & materials. Again, I'm sure they'll be fine, but I was kind of disappointed they weren't offer want the civilian world a close equivalent to their military offerings.

[Sigfan26]

I heard the commercial FN AR's weren't up to spec like the offerings from Colt. Things like non-FA BCG's, barrel twists, QC inspections, & materials. Again, I'm sure they'll be fine, but I was kind of disappointed they weren't offer want the civilian world a close equivalent to their military offerings.

All I've seen had FA carriers (with properly staked gas keys), 1in7 twist (chrome lined), and all components having proper marks for MPI...

... They also shipped with a Carry Handle rear sight! An (compared to MagPul MBUS) expensive addition that is great if you plan to run irons for any great length of time.

[Suvorov]

I don't know what kind of corners (if any) FN might be cutting with their semi-auto consumer rifles, but their M16s have certainly proven their worth and the fact that they also have the TDP for the M4 should be fairly reassuring. I was issued a brand new FN M16A2 back in the 1990s and it remains the nicest M16 I ever fired.....

I've been jonesing to get my hands on one of their 20 inch ARs ever since they announced them.

[Haraise]

Given how open the question is, for a first rifle, I have recommend an SR-15 EWS E3 Mod2 to others and will likely continue to do so.

Start with a good base, and they can learn if they like/want three gun/high accuracy/more power/lighter/heavier/etc.

Knights has been good to me, and I don't want to recommend anything that someone will expect me to fix for them.

[Unobtanium]

I used to be a huge fan of Daniel Defense. I still am. They make a great product!

However, for my money, in the $1.5 to 2K range for a "ready to run, just add optic" type gun, I would pick the Hodge Defense.

[WDW]

All I've seen had FA carriers (with properly staked gas keys), 1in7 twist (chrome lined), and all components having proper marks for MPI...

... They also shipped with a Carry Handle rear sight! An (compared to MagPul MBUS) expensive addition that is great if you plan to run irons for any great length of time.
Well that's good to hear. I hadn't actually handled one.

[WDW]

I've been jonesing to get my hands on one of their 20 inch ARs ever since they announced them.

You & me both! For some reason, I really enjoy shooting a 20" AR.

....and I just ordered one. I'm gonna magpul the hell out of that thing!

[Chuck Haggard]

For a low end AR my recommendation has always been "don't". I have seen way too many bad Bushampsters and DPMSs to ever buy or recommend one. If I was given one for free I wouldn't use it for more than a holder for a .22 kit, I couldn't even sell one in good conscience.

I have been doing some work with an M&P Sport, the model that has been priced as low as the $500 price range. So far it’s a really capable and reliable AR, sample of one and all. With S&W’s life time warranty I think it’s worth a shot if that’s all one can afford.

[BoppaBear]

Being from NC, I'm an advocate of Barnes Precision Machine. Far from a "household" name as the BCM's, Colt's, Spike's, Noveske's, etc., but an excellent US-made rifle. One of the few completely made in the US. BPM provides small parts, pins, etc., to some of the OEM manufacturers.

In my humble, non-professional, opinion, there is great value in their rifles.

[Jay Cunningham]

I recommend a Colt LE6920 or AR6720 as a rule of thumb; I recommend BCMs as well.

That said, S&W and LMT seem to make pretty decent ARs. The boutique makers are all fine but kind of spendy. DD is a little odd, because my experience with them is that they are on more the same level as S&W than the Colt or BCM offerings. Still a decent gun, tho.

I wouldn't recommend a DPMS or Wyndam Whatever/Bushmaster... though honestly most ARs can be made mostly right with 20 minutes of effort and the right tools/parts.

[WDW]

I recommend a Colt LE6920 or AR6720 as a rule of thumb; I recommend BCMs as well.

That said, S&W and LMT seem to make pretty decent ARs. The boutique makers are all fine but kind of spendy. DD is a little odd, because my experience with them is that they are on more the same level as S&W than the Colt or BCM offerings. Still a decent gun, tho.

I wouldn't recommend a DPMS or Wyndam Whatever/Bushmaster... though honestly most ARs can be made mostly right with 20 minutes of effort and the right tools/parts.
What's your experience with DD rifles? They use FA bolt carriers, CHF HP/MPI 1/7 barrels, and seem to have excellent QC & attention to detail. S&W does not use FA bolt carriers, uses 4140 barrels with 1/9 twist and while my experience with them has not been bad, the few rifles I've had of theirs demonstrated that QC was definitely done in batches, not on individual guns.

[Jay Cunningham]

Their QC seems a little spotty to me for what they charge and the acclaim that they receive from certain high-profile paid endorsements. YMMV

Still pretty decent guns, though.

[Jay Cunningham]

They use FA bolt carriers, CHF HP/MPI 1/7 barrels, and seem to have excellent QC & attention to detail. S&W does not use FA bolt carriers, uses 4140 barrels with 1/9 twist and while my experience with them has not been bad...

Look, I'll be perfectly open and honest with you: that stuff doesn't matter much with civilians and home defense. It just doesn't.

Ya, I know... believe me, I know. I teach carbine classes, I've been through eleventy billion hours of carbine training, I was certified as a Colt armorer by Ken Elmore, etc. blah blah

I know all the standard answers by heart.

The reality is, as long as the rifle is lubed and a certain few critical components are checked, the rifle will be perfectly suitable to make it through a couple of carbine courses and serve admirably in the role of HD. There's a reason why guns for the military need to be built to a military specification - because they get used and abused a lot harder and need to be more robust and durable - i.e. overbuilt.

[WDW]

Their QC seems a little spotty to me for what they charge and the acclaim that they receive from certain high-profile paid endorsements. YMMV

Still pretty decent guns, though.
I think they are definitely priced on the high side, although their guns do come with a nice rail system professionally installed out of the box. I went with one over another Colt only because I got a new one for less than a new 6920, so I decided to see how it'll run.

[Jay Cunningham]

It'll probably run great... provided that it's lubed and that you check a few critical features first.

Of course, pretty much every manufacturer goes through QC cycles of spotty and good... some more than others.

[Duke2424]

I'd recommend this.

https://app.box.com/shared/static/9uuxuwk4t32eg17hphte.jpg



I'd also recommend this . . .

https://app.box.com/shared/static/zhk7ukn5nqe61ibst62d.jpg



. . . and this.

https://app.box.com/shared/static/2y7ylstracq2sx9ucvj1.jpg



Or this . . .

https://app.box.com/shared/static/8qf8cqbhz9xyc43c72ns.jpg



. . . or this . . .

https://app.box.com/shared/static/2a4eecabfbxfvmm7ny70.jpg




. . . or this . . .

https://app.box.com/shared/static/39021srrm4k0uft88xg2.jpg




. . . or this.

https://app.box.com/shared/static/85ksjl52b36k4pnaxdnk.jpg



As orionz06 stated, "purpose matters." One of the great things about the AR-15 platform is that it is easily configured to suit a variety of roles.


...

If the purpose of the rifle was the following: home defense, 5 or so high volume training classes per year, and target practice on the weekends. The optics selections would be a high quality 1-6 variable. Basically, a "do it all" 0-600m rifle. What would be your barrel recommendation? Thank you in advance!

[Molon]

If the purpose of the rifle was the following: home defense, 5 or so high volume training classes per year, and target practice on the weekends. The optics selections would be a high quality 1-6 variable. Basically, a "do it all" 0-600m rifle. What would be your barrel recommendation? Thank you in advance!

My personal choice for the conditions you described, would be a 16" barrel with a mid-length gas system, a medium contour and a 1:7" (or 1:8") twist. Noveske's Recon barrel happens to meet these specifications. It's the barrel shown in the 5th pic down in my original post. (The carbine with the 1-4X Schmidt & Bender Short Dot LE.) You can read a review of the Noveske Recon barrel at the link below.


http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/467919_.html


....

[Duke2424]

My personal choice for the conditions you described, would be a 16" barrel with a mid-length gas system, a medium contour and a 1:7" (or 1:8") twist. Noveske's Recon barrel happens to meet these specifications. It's the barrel shown in the 5th pic down in my original post. (The carbine with the 1-4X Schmidt & Bender Short Dot LE.) You can read a review of the Noveske Recon barrel at the link below.


http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/467919_.html


....

Could you possibly expand on your reasons for choosing the SS Recon? The reason that I ask is that from previously researching your posts, I have developed the idea that the Colt M4A1 SOCOM and Noveske N4 might compete with the Recon. Both barrels showed above average precision with mean radii of 0.35" and 0.39", respectively, but in an arguably more durable CL format. Thank you for the opportunity to pick your brain a bit more!

[Zhurdan]

A good friend of mine posted this yesterday and this thread seems appropriate for it.


http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r127/Zhurdan/askhole_zps1a749c5f.jpg (http://s143.photobucket.com/user/Zhurdan/media/askhole_zps1a749c5f.jpg.html)

I can't even begin to count the times people have asked my opinion, you give them the facts, you explain the reasons, you listen to their needs and wants of the gun and what do they do? Well the guy at the place where their job is to sell these told me it's just as good. *facepalm* PLEASE DON'T BUY A HOUSE like that!!! Please don't buy a car like that! It's their friggin' job to sell you something and if they're worth their salt as a salesperson, if they see you balk at the price on one thing, they'll sell you a pile of steaming kitten and tell you it's "just as good".

Personally, before I knew any different and only shot dirt clods, I had a Bushmaster. Sold it for two times what I paid for it, so not all was lost. I shoot Noveske exclusively now. But if the need arises for another rifle (which is likely to happen), I'd probably buy a BCM.

[Unobtanium]

I have noted some qc quirks on my dd guns. However, for a hard use gun, I feel that they produce the best barrel I can buy.

[Duke2424]

Not sure if Zhurdan's post is directed towards me but for clarification; I am not questioning Molon's personal recommendation/choice. I am just trying to learn as much as I can from his wealth of knowledge.

[Zhurdan]

Not sure if Zhurdan's post is directed towards me but for clarification; I am not questioning Molon's personal recommendation/choice. I am just trying to learn as much as I can from his wealth of knowledge.

No direction at all. I just thought it was a funny picture. More times than not, I think people take advice with the best of intentions, but when they get to the gun shop and have a rifle in hand, it's hard to not "get the itch" and want to scratch it immediately.

[Charlie Foxtrot]

First AR? S&W M&P-15 Sport. For $600, pretty damn good.

Have them invest the rest of the money in ammo, mags and TRAINING.

[ASH556]

I have noted some qc quirks on my dd guns. However, for a hard use gun, I feel that they produce the best barrel I can buy.
I find the DD notes here interesting. (Disclaimer: I own a factory DD SBR and another complete lower along with some sights from them.) I am a certified armorer and know the ins and outs of what makes a rifle good and what makes one run. I also work at one of the busier shop/ranges in the metro ATL area and so I see a lot that goes wrong. In fact, last week I went to install a rail on a brand new M&P Sport and found the barrel nut to be less than hand tight from the factory. I have never seen anything wrong from a QC perspective with a DD rifle. I'd appreciate if you, Jay, Doc and others would share some of the specific issues you've seen. There are plenty of good rifles on the market and a bunch of not so good ones, but I don't feel DD deserves to be ranked lower than BCM or Colt based on what I've seen. Apparently some of you have seen otherwise. I'm willing to learn, please enlighten me.

[Jay Cunningham]

I've seen improperly pinned gas blocks on DD rifles, that's for sure. I've felt safeties that didn't quite operate smoothly or stay put in one place.

These things can happen from any manufacturer; I just saw several of these (and heard other similar stories) in a short timeframe.

[Molon]

Could you possibly expand on your reasons for choosing the SS Recon? The reason that I ask is that from previously researching your posts, I have developed the idea that the Colt M4A1 SOCOM and Noveske N4 might compete with the Recon. Both barrels showed above average precision with mean radii of 0.35" and 0.39", respectively, but in an arguably more durable CL format. Thank you for the opportunity to pick your brain a bit more!

Obviously, there is no single AR-15 configuration that “does it all” and the specifications you listed are actually quite demanding. Had you not included the “0-600m” requirement, I might have suggested something like the two barrels you just mentioned.

However, if you want to make consistently accurate hits at 600 meters with an AR-15 that is also going to serve as your “home defense” carbine as you stated, I’d personally want a barrel that gave the best compromise of accuracy and velocity to weight and handling; hence the Recon barrel suggestion.

[Dolemite]

My DDM4 V7 arrived with a cracked bolt carrier. They promptly took care of it and the rifle has been flawless since then, but I would have a very hard time recommending one now.

[BWT]

BCM. 4/4 good experiences; I haven't ever had a serious complaint or issue. Lifetime Warranty, well made.

I may be a fan boy, but I've never owned a Colt. My Dad does, but I haven't shot it. So, although they get great reviews I have zero experience shooting/cleaning one; I'm sure it would have functioned fine.

Rainier Arms also sells almost everything G&R Tactical does. BCM SBR's are a bit of a rarity. However, my father and I have been well pleased.

I would recommend a Midlength 16". I believe it's the best "one AR" configuration.

ETA: I also think that they're priced appropriately for what they are. They're not as expensive as they were and I think the 10-15% premium isn't huge. When spending $600, a Midlength upper at $439 with BCG (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-16-Mid-Length-Upper-Receiver-Group-p/bcm-urg-mid-16.htm) and a BCM complete lower at $395 (https://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=3413) is $834.

That's cheaper than it was when I did essentially that exact thing in 2009-10. I bought a complete lower and upper. Pat Rogers did the Filthy 14 article with a non CHF barrel too.

I just wouldn't buy a windham or S&W when that or Colt 6920's are that close in price. Just my .02$

[ReverendMeat]

If you want a factory rifle for ~$1k I think the S&W Midlength is the best value. You could get a Colt 6920, sure, but the Smith mid is, well, a midlength where the Colt is not, and it comes with Magpul MOE handguards, pistol grip, buttstock, verticle foregrip, and both Magpul carbine DVDs, for under $1.1k. We sell tons of S&W rifles and the only one that came back to us was one where the anodizing on the upper didn't match the lower perfectly. But if your budget is up to $1.5k my recommendation would be a BCM complete upper and mate it to any decent lower that's set up how you want it (e.g. I used a Sionics lower because it came with an ALG QMS trigger and VLTOR A5 stock system, which is exactly what I was looking for). BCM complete rifles are harder to get but they always have uppers in stock, in various configurations.

I haven't been hugely impressed with DD's offerings--we had one that came in with a loose barrel nut once. The rest have been fine, though.

[Odin Bravo One]

If the end users are going to flat out abuse the rifle......

DD, Colt, BCM can all hold up to it. I haven't had a 1/1 DD specimen arrive in some state of disarray, so I can't comment on that aspect. But I've shot out somewhere around 30 of their uppers. Can't count the Colt's I have shot out. I've had a few BCM's and all lived up to the hype.

If a guy wants to wring out the maximum potential of the platform, Noveske. There are probably somewhere in the realm of 5% of shooters who would truly benefit from a better mousetrap, but for those who want that and can afford the price tag, Noveske is where I drop my dimes.

If Gas Piston has your skirt blown up, LWRC is about the only domestic player I take seriously.

I recommend based on the asker/buyers needs. Not mine. I have a percentage of income ear-marked for firearms and related expenses. It is substantial. I have a wonderful wife who doesn't even roll her eyes, or bat an eye when I tell her we have to shift some funds around because I just dropped $10k large at Noveske Rifleworks, or $25k on a machinegun. What I want, need, expect out of a rifle is different than anyone else. Why would I suggest a Noveske for a casual plinker who intends on shooting 100 rounds per year at soup cans, when a Bushmaster and 15 minutes at my bench will serve them, and likely their children very well for that purpose. I certainly wouldn't suggest a Windham Weaponry POS for a skilled marksman looking to maximize the accuracy, and reliability over a wide range of environments, including hard use. My neighbors are still choking down the <$500 cost for a Glock, let alone ammo, training, etc. They simply do not have that kind of disposable income.......not everyone on the planet is a gun dork.

[Chuck Haggard]

Having seen DPMS guns break the bolt in as little as 600 rounds through the gun I couldn't recommend them even for plinking and hobby use. We have had numerous issues from the Bushmasters we have at work, many can be worked around, but why should a person have to?

[Nik the Greek]

Haven't seen LaRue mentioned in the high cost recommendations. Did they fall out of favor for some reason I'm unaware of?

[Unobtanium]

I find the DD notes here interesting. (Disclaimer: I own a factory DD SBR and another complete lower along with some sights from them.) I am a certified armorer and know the ins and outs of what makes a rifle good and what makes one run. I also work at one of the busier shop/ranges in the metro ATL area and so I see a lot that goes wrong. In fact, last week I went to install a rail on a brand new M&P Sport and found the barrel nut to be less than hand tight from the factory. I have never seen anything wrong from a QC perspective with a DD rifle. I'd appreciate if you, Jay, Doc and others would share some of the specific issues you've seen. There are plenty of good rifles on the market and a bunch of not so good ones, but I don't feel DD deserves to be ranked lower than BCM or Colt based on what I've seen. Apparently some of you have seen otherwise. I'm willing to learn, please enlighten me.

I own 2 Daniel Defense complete rifles, and bought 1 for my Dad for Christmas.

16.1" DDM4 I own: very mushy safety selector, receiver extension is not straight up/down, receiver extension tube has a good bit of machine marks in it and the weapon sounds gritty when I charge it. None of these things are a big deal, especially functionally, but I would have paid a few hundred more to have a rifle like the Hodge Defense which wouldn't have had these quirks.

10.3" DDM4 SBR I own: When I bolt the mag-pul grip on, there is a slight gap between it and the ears of the trigger guard. Drives me crazy. Receiver tube is very rough inside. Annoying sounds and feels like I'm charging it through sand. Vague selector. Also, the aluminum end-plate is "over-staked" to the point that it has all but broken off that chunk of aluminum into the castle-nut "tooth area". I do NOT trust that it is very strong a deterrent to the castle-nut backing off, and have up until now relied on the castle-nut being torqued properly. I may buy a Tapco end-plate and stake that thing for hell or high water!

Many of the DDM4 bolts I have look "pitted" on the tail, very rough metal under the phosphate? (indeed, some even had corrosion/rust evident on the "stem") instead of "cleanly frosted" (normal phosphate) or slick (thinner phosphate, like a Colt bolt). Carbon loves to get and stay in there in that rough surface/finish on the DD bolts.

Daniel Defense just lets a few things through that for $14-1800, should not get through. Daniel Defense "checks all the right boxes", they just don't always ASSEMBLE all of those "correct" parts as cleanly as I would like. Hodge Defense is priced slightly higher, but things like that do not get through.

I love Daniel Defense barrels, though. Daniel Defense barrels are cold hammer forged. The bores are done on the same reamer/at the same time as the chambers. THAT is the real benefit of the DDM4 CHF barrel. Noone else does that, that I am aware. Not Noveske. Not FN. Nada. (correct me if I'm wrong...). They all CHF the bore, and them ream the chambers. DD using a reamer which forms bore AND chamber at the same time insures 100% concentricity of bore and chamber, as well as eliminating any artifact in the throat of the bore caused by reaming the chamber. It's a little thing, but I think this is the best possible way in which a barrel can be manufactured for a hard-use type gun. Benchrest or whatever, probably you want something like a Shillen or Kreiger or whatever.

My father owns several Colts, as well, and I have shot them a bit. They are older Colts, though, so I don't feel comfortable even comparing them. It would be like comparing a 1980's Mustang to a 2010 Camaro and trying to draw a parallel.

My experience with Noveske resulted in me getting rid both of them (14.5" CHF, complete rifle Gen II forged lower/VLTOR VIS upper, unacceptable POI shift suppressed, random failures to feed, gasblock was tuned to an AAC can and the lower backpressure Surefires I run caused issues sometimes when it got dirty.). The second one, I sent back to Noveske, because it was, as plainly as I can word it, wrong. Noveske has replaced it, and I am waiting on the tax-stamp before they can return it to me. I am really hoping that it is squared away when I get it back. It was a factory SBR. I will wait until I get this replacement gun before venturing further opinion on Noveske (other than to say that after some initial resistance, their CS has been exemplary!), as it will be the first one I have from them since John passed away, and Joel moved out.

I have a friend with a BCM upper. It is very squared away. That's the end of my "BCM experience".

Daniel Defense rifles, in my experience, "work just fine". Mine sure do. However, they price themselves in a territory that I feel they need to step up on fit/finish/cosmetics to belong in.

I think that currently, the only "off the shelf" rifle I am happy with that I have seen are the offerings from Jim Hodge. I am sure others out there are great, I just have not handled them, or, in the case of Noveske, got a few lemons and other than this warranty replacement, have moved on from for the most part.

[Kyle Reese]

I've steered a few friends towards the $799.99 Colt 6720 LW carbines on sale lately. These will likely see occasional range use and nothing more, so for them it's a good purchase.

[Jay Cunningham]

Let's watch the casual F-Bombs, please.

[LittleLebowski]

Haven't seen LaRue mentioned in the high cost recommendations. Did they fall out of favor for some reason I'm unaware of?

They are very hard to obtain. You can't just up and buy one and have it in hand in a timely manner.

[WDW]

I have a 20" FN rifle on order. Plan to put 1,000 through it right off the bat. I'm interested to see how those perform.

[HCM]

Haven't seen LaRue mentioned in the high cost recommendations. Did they fall out of favor for some reason I'm unaware of?

Availability and price. Why wait a year for an AR - they aren't skilled labor / hand fitting intensive. They're nice but there are other options out there just as nice for less money. Local shop has one - they are asking $3600 - I can buy. KAC and $1600 worth of optic / ammo and training for the same $$$.

[tremiles]

If someone "just wants an AR" and doesn't have a specific need, I'll usually recommend a 6720. If their needs change and they want to go another way, they'll get more of their money back with a budget Colt than a budget anything else.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

[Odin Bravo One]

I own 2 Daniel Defense complete rifles, and bought 1 for my Dad for Christmas.

16.1" DDM4 I own: very mushy safety selector, receiver extension is not straight up/down, receiver extension tube has a good bit of machine marks in it and the weapon sounds gritty when I charge it. None of these things are a big deal, especially functionally, but I would have paid a few hundred more to have a rifle like the Hodge Defense which wouldn't have had these quirks.

10.3" DDM4 SBR I own: When I bolt the mag-pul grip on, there is a slight gap between it and the ears of the trigger guard. Drives me crazy. Receiver tube is very rough inside. Annoying sounds and feels like I'm charging it through sand. Vague selector. Also, the aluminum end-plate is "over-staked" to the point that it has all but broken off that chunk of aluminum into the castle-nut "tooth area". I do NOT trust that it is very strong a deterrent to the castle-nut backing off, and have up until now relied on the castle-nut being torqued properly. I may buy a Tapco end-plate and stake that thing for hell or high water!

Many of the DDM4 bolts I have look "pitted" on the tail, very rough metal under the phosphate? (indeed, some even had corrosion/rust evident on the "stem") instead of "cleanly frosted" (normal phosphate) or slick (thinner phosphate, like a Colt bolt). Carbon loves to get and stay in there in that rough surface/finish on the DD bolts.

Daniel Defense just lets a few things through that for $14-1800, should not get through. Daniel Defense "checks all the right boxes", they just don't always ASSEMBLE all of those "correct" parts as cleanly as I would like. Hodge Defense is priced slightly higher, but things like that do not get through.

I love Daniel Defense barrels, though. Daniel Defense barrels are cold hammer forged. The bores are done on the same reamer/at the same time as the chambers. THAT is the real benefit of the DDM4 CHF barrel. Noone else does that, that I am aware. Not Noveske. Not FN. Nada. (correct me if I'm wrong...). They all CHF the bore, and them ream the chambers. DD using a reamer which forms bore AND chamber at the same time insures 100% concentricity of bore and chamber, as well as eliminating any artifact in the throat of the bore caused by reaming the chamber. It's a little thing, but I think this is the best possible way in which a barrel can be manufactured for a hard-use type gun. Benchrest or whatever, probably you want something like a Shillen or Kreiger or whatever.

My father owns several Colts, as well, and I have shot them a bit. They are older Colts, though, so I don't feel comfortable even comparing them. It would be like comparing a 1980's Mustang to a 2010 Camaro and trying to draw a parallel.

My experience with Noveske resulted in me getting rid both of them (14.5" CHF, complete rifle Gen II forged lower/VLTOR VIS upper, unacceptable POI shift suppressed, random failures to feed, gasblock was tuned to an AAC can and the lower backpressure Surefires I run caused issues sometimes when it got dirty.). The second one, I sent back to Noveske, because it was, as plainly as I can word it, wrong. Noveske has replaced it, and I am waiting on the tax-stamp before they can return it to me. I am really hoping that it is squared away when I get it back. It was a factory SBR. I will wait until I get this replacement gun before venturing further opinion on Noveske (other than to say that after some initial resistance, their CS has been exemplary!), as it will be the first one I have from them since John passed away, and Joel moved out.

I have a friend with a BCM upper. It is very squared away. That's the end of my "BCM experience".

Daniel Defense rifles, in my experience, "work just fine". Mine sure do. However, they price themselves in a territory that I feel they need to step up on fit/finish/cosmetics to belong in.

I think that currently, the only "off the shelf" rifle I am happy with that I have seen are the offerings from Jim Hodge. I am sure others out there are great, I just have not handled them, or, in the case of Noveske, got a few lemons and other than this warranty replacement, have moved on from for the most part.

If we are getting that nit picky.........I would recommend an AK made of SS, machined and assembled under my direct supervision.

Having shot out more guns in a week than most AR users will in two lifetimes, I have seen SHIT products from EVERY SINGLE MANUFACTURER OF AR IN THE FREE WORLD.

Just out of curiosity more than anything else.......what exactly does the bolt tail do for function of the AR? I am geninuinely curious, as I have yet to hear an answer, but people obsess about it, and equally trivial aspects of the AR.

[Unobtanium]

If we are getting that nit picky.........I would recommend an AK made of SS, machined and assembled under my direct supervision.

Having shot out more guns in a week than most AR users will in two lifetimes, I have seen SHIT products from EVERY SINGLE MANUFACTURER OF AR IN THE FREE WORLD.

Just out of curiosity more than anything else.......what exactly does the bolt tail do for function of the AR? I am geninuinely curious, as I have yet to hear an answer, but people obsess about it, and equally trivial aspects of the AR.

Buy an Olympic Arms or DPMS, Ned's chamber-reamer, and a BCG from BCM/Rainier, verify barrel-nut torque, stake the castle nut, and rock on. I can see that plan working well, from a functional aspect. Why is it not more popular?

[orionz06]

Just out of curiosity more than anything else.......what exactly does the bolt tail do for function of the AR? I am geninuinely curious, as I have yet to hear an answer, but people obsess about it, and equally trivial aspects of the AR.

It has to be there. Pressure acts against it, that's it.

[Odin Bravo One]

So of the discrepancies noted regarding said tail........will they endure 7,000 rounds? I only ask because I currently have an AR bolt coming up on 50k, the tail is split, a crack at the bolt lug, and running on two gas rings.......gun still works fine. 7k being the service life of an AR bolt in a 10" gun, seems we are at what??? 9 times it's service life? Why would I give two kittens through a rolling donut if the "finish" or "machining" could have been better? Seems to me it is just fine.


I also see such things as zero shifts when suppressor is attached. Seems to me that if the gun shoots well without the suppressor, then doesn't when the suppressor is attached.....it "might" not be the gun that has the issue. Then again, I could be mistaken.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Buy an Olympic Arms or DPMS, Ned's chamber-reamer, and a BCG from BCM/Rainier, verify barrel-nut torque, stake the castle nut, and rock on. I can see that plan working well, from a functional aspect. Why is it not more popular?

Because the needs of 99% of AR owners would be equally served by buying an Olympic or DPMS, ignoring barrel nut torque, leaving the chamber alone, leaving the castle nut alone, and using the supplied BCG?

The number of people who benefit from a quality AR is pretty tiny.

The vast majority of people who are buying TIER ONE CHART-APPROVED MILSPEC are doing so because they think it's cool, not because they'll wreck anything below a Colt.

Hell, I think I have 5000 rounds on an AR that wasn't even built of 7076. Is it my primary? No, but it runs fine. And I ask more of guns than the vast, vast majority of gun owners.

[Unobtanium]

Because the needs of 99% of AR owners would be equally served by buying an Olympic or DPMS, ignoring barrel nut torque, leaving the chamber alone, leaving the castle nut alone, and using the supplied BCG?

The number of people who benefit from a quality AR is pretty tiny.

The vast majority of people who are buying TIER ONE CHART-APPROVED MILSPEC are doing so because they think it's cool, not because they'll wreck anything below a Colt.

Hell, I think I have 5000 rounds on an AR that wasn't even built of 7076. Is it my primary? No, but it runs fine. And I ask more of guns than the vast, vast majority of gun owners.
I put about 5k through a Noveske make of 6061. It was fine for the most part.

You hit on my point exactly. We could almost all be well served by cheaper weapons with annoying quirks and shorter service lives. However, if I'm spending the money, I want them goods. If I'm paying $1600 for an m4, and I'm has a goodly amount of cosmetic and tactile quirks, I'll up it to $1900 and avoid that. Just my .02

[BWT]

Buy an Olympic Arms or DPMS, Ned's chamber-reamer, and a BCG from BCM/Rainier, verify barrel-nut torque, stake the castle nut, and rock on. I can see that plan working well, from a functional aspect. Why is it not more popular?

Do you know how much that reamer costs? What about no chrome lining? What about the twist rate ? The quality of steel? Gas port size?

Why finish buy an unfinished product? If they can't get a chamber correct or fastener staked in a BCG; what other surprises await an end user?

The chart though criticized made dishonest people honest; it also made dishonest people aware of (in a limited scope) what we were looking for.

I'm not being an elitist (or don't think I am). By the way, the quote I made for BCM being $834. Could be brought to $746 if you bought a Blem lower from G&R; I understand there is an aversion to him for certain groups (I'm not going into details and don't care to). I'm just saying it is an option. Blem lower (http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=LWR-BCM-BLEM) for $307 + 16" Midlength upper with M16 BCG and BCM compensator (no charging handle) for $439 (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-16-Mid-Length-Upper-Receiver-Group-p/bcm-urg-mid-16.htm = $739.

I just don't see why anyone would buy Olympic Arms. It's night and day differences for not ridiculous prices. I'm no longer a part time worker and college student, so I can buy factory rifles on rarer occasion (I'm now a full time college student/full time job/husband), etc. but at one point I did buy a complete BCM upper receiver group and lower group with BCM BCG and Troy BUIS.

It took a long time, but short of having issues with some (ETA: Green) mil spec magazine followers in the first hundred rounds and switching to Magpul ATF. I've had zero reliability issues. By the way, I shoot cheap steel cased ammo exclusively (I did have one stuck case from that, but I figured out an M16 bore brush every 500 rounds and lubricant solved that). I think I have somewhere around 5k rounds in that BCM Midlength.

[Unobtanium]

Do you know how much that reamer costs? What about no chrome lining? What about the twist rate ? The quality of steel? Gas port size?

Why finish buy an unfinished product? If they can't get a chamber correct or fastener staked in a BCG; what other surprises await an end user?

The chart though criticized made dishonest people honest; it also made dishonest people aware of (in a limited scope) what we were looking for.

I'm not being an elitist (or don't think I am). By the way, the quote I made for BCM being $834. Could be brought to $746 if you bought a Blem lower from G&R; I understand there is an aversion to him for certain groups (I'm not going into details and don't care to). I'm just saying it is an option. Blem lower (http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=LWR-BCM-BLEM) for $307 + 16" Midlength upper with M16 BCG and BCM compensator (no charging handle) for $439 (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-16-Mid-Length-Upper-Receiver-Group-p/bcm-urg-mid-16.htm = $739.

I just don't see why anyone would buy Olympic Arms. It's night and day differences for not ridiculous prices. I'm no longer a part time worker and college student, so I can buy factory rifles on rarer occasion (I'm now a full time college student/full time job/husband), etc. but at one point I did buy a complete BCM upper receiver group and lower group with BCM BCG and Troy BUIS.

It took a long time, but short of having issues with some (ETA: Green) mil spec magazine followers in the first hundred rounds and switching to Magpul ATF. I've had zero reliability issues. By the way, I shoot cheap steel cased ammo exclusively (I did have one stuck case from that, but I figured out an M16 bore brush every 500 rounds and lubricant solved that). I think I have somewhere around 5k rounds in that BCM Midlength.
My dad bought an Olympic. It has many thousands of rounds through it. It has never malfunctioned in my use. It served the officer he bought it from well. By the standards of real world results, it It's just as good as my daniel defense and noveske guns. Actually, far superior to my Noveske guns to date.

However...you and I both know that 100 Olympic guns vs 100 colts or whatever will show that odds are the Colt or dd holds up better.

By the same token, frankenbuilds on a kitchen table using all dd or colt parts likely will be in the same boat.

The point becomes: better materials and more attention from properly equipped sources of assembly seem to win out. This is why the AMU 1911s tend to run well. This is why I said I'd prefer a gun built by 1 person using superior parts for only a couple hundred more than my ddm4s. Less likely to have issue, and is prefer the feel of a quality m4.

In a world where everyone dumps a geissele trigger in their rifle, I don't see why they poopoo a solid and smooth bolt release, safety selector, etc.

[Odin Bravo One]

Since there is nothing about you listed in your "about me" section, and no one I know on the board knows you, or your background.........I have to make assumptions.......

Based on the millions of rounds, fired through several thousands of suppressors, on hundreds of makes and models of guns in my experience.........your experience doesn't add up.

Also, having extensive experience with Sure-Fire, and their suppressor division ...........I've had them tell me the beans they sold us in the last contract were magic too. Still no bean stalk. Oh, but I am holding my breath waiting for it to grow. A goose with golden eggs should be arriving shortly, thereby relieving me of a need to work as a paid employee at PF.com.

[Unobtanium]

Since there is nothing about you listed in your "about me" section, and no one I know on the board knows you, or your background.........I have to make assumptions.......

Based on the millions of rounds, fired through several thousands of suppressors, on hundreds of makes and models of guns in my experience.........your experience doesn't add up.

Also, having extensive experience with Sure-Fire, and their suppressor division ...........I've had them tell me the beans they sold us in the last contract were magic too. Still no bean stalk. Oh, but I am holding my breath waiting for it to grow. A goose with golden eggs should be arriving shortly, thereby relieving me of a need to work as a paid employee at PF.com.

So the suppressor Is to blame because it has a bad poi shift one one rifle, mediocre on another, and works great on on a 3rd? That makes no sense to me. What could possibly be wrong with the suppressor?

[Sasage]

I own 2 Daniel Defense complete rifles, and bought 1 for my Dad for Christmas.

16.1" DDM4 I own: very mushy safety selector, receiver extension is not straight up/down, receiver extension tube has a good bit of machine marks in it and the weapon sounds gritty when I charge it. None of these things are a big deal, especially functionally, but I would have paid a few hundred more to have a rifle like the Hodge Defense which wouldn't have had these quirks.

10.3" DDM4 SBR I own: When I bolt the mag-pul grip on, there is a slight gap between it and the ears of the trigger guard. Drives me crazy. Receiver tube is very rough inside. Annoying sounds and feels like I'm charging it through sand. Vague selector. Also, the aluminum end-plate is "over-staked" to the point that it has all but broken off that chunk of aluminum into the castle-nut "tooth area". I do NOT trust that it is very strong a deterrent to the castle-nut backing off, and have up until now relied on the castle-nut being torqued properly. I may buy a Tapco end-plate and stake that thing for hell or high water!

Many of the DDM4 bolts I have look "pitted" on the tail, very rough metal under the phosphate? (indeed, some even had corrosion/rust evident on the "stem") instead of "cleanly frosted" (normal phosphate) or slick (thinner phosphate, like a Colt bolt). Carbon loves to get and stay in there in that rough surface/finish on the DD bolts.

Daniel Defense just lets a few things through that for $14-1800, should not get through. Daniel Defense "checks all the right boxes", they just don't always ASSEMBLE all of those "correct" parts as cleanly as I would like. Hodge Defense is priced slightly higher, but things like that do not get through.

I love Daniel Defense barrels, though. Daniel Defense barrels are cold hammer forged. The bores are done on the same reamer/at the same time as the chambers. THAT is the real benefit of the DDM4 CHF barrel. Noone else does that, that I am aware. Not Noveske. Not FN. Nada. (correct me if I'm wrong...). They all CHF the bore, and them ream the chambers. DD using a reamer which forms bore AND chamber at the same time insures 100% concentricity of bore and chamber, as well as eliminating any artifact in the throat of the bore caused by reaming the chamber. It's a little thing, but I think this is the best possible way in which a barrel can be manufactured for a hard-use type gun. Benchrest or whatever, probably you want something like a Shillen or Kreiger or whatever.

My father owns several Colts, as well, and I have shot them a bit. They are older Colts, though, so I don't feel comfortable even comparing them. It would be like comparing a 1980's Mustang to a 2010 Camaro and trying to draw a parallel.

My experience with Noveske resulted in me getting rid both of them (14.5" CHF, complete rifle Gen II forged lower/VLTOR VIS upper, unacceptable POI shift suppressed, random failures to feed, gasblock was tuned to an AAC can and the lower backpressure Surefires I run caused issues sometimes when it got dirty.). The second one, I sent back to Noveske, because it was, as plainly as I can word it, wrong. Noveske has replaced it, and I am waiting on the tax-stamp before they can return it to me. I am really hoping that it is squared away when I get it back. It was a factory SBR. I will wait until I get this replacement gun before venturing further opinion on Noveske (other than to say that after some initial resistance, their CS has been exemplary!), as it will be the first one I have from them since John passed away, and Joel moved out.

I have a friend with a BCM upper. It is very squared away. That's the end of my "BCM experience".

Daniel Defense rifles, in my experience, "work just fine". Mine sure do. However, they price themselves in a territory that I feel they need to step up on fit/finish/cosmetics to belong in.

I think that currently, the only "off the shelf" rifle I am happy with that I have seen are the offerings from Jim Hodge. I am sure others out there are great, I just have not handled them, or, in the case of Noveske, got a few lemons and other than this warranty replacement, have moved on from for the most part.
I had to slightly modify the hole on my magpul grip to eliminate the gap. http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/09/14/df3f8dea3233d09c2846a2349b183521.jpg

[Unobtanium]

I had to slightly modify the hole on my magpul grip to eliminate the gap. http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/09/14/df3f8dea3233d09c2846a2349b183521.jpg

Yep. I chose to just crank mine down. IT all but eliminated it. This is the kind of stuff I am talking about. You get a gun that has this gap, a sloppy mushy selector, a canted receiver extension, and a poorly staked end-plate, and you kinda wish you had spent $2-300 more to get one that had none of those issues. Not completely BECAUSE of the issues, but...you paid $1400-1600 for a top of the line carbine. What's another few hundred for one that FEELS like a top of the line carbine and is more pleasurable to shoot? Let's be honest, we buy things like Geissele triggers, Magpul grips, and other things because they enhance the pleasure of shooting the carbine. A2 grips and mil-spec triggers are killing booger-eaters all day and twice on Sunday just fine, but...See my point? THAT is why I am moving slowly away from Daniel Defense complete guns. I don't feel like my investment is being fully returned. That's all. They shoot...just fine, and likely will do so long after I run out of ammo and money to feed them.

[Sasage]

I can agree with that. The only reason I purchased mine was that at the time it was only $100 more than a 6920. If it wasn't on sale , Colt all the way.

[Tamara]

You sure wouldn't want the fit 'n' finish to be bad.

[Odin Bravo One]

So the suppressor Is to blame because it has a bad poi shift one one rifle, mediocre on another, and works great on on a 3rd? That makes no sense to me. What could possibly be wrong with the suppressor?



What could possibly be wrong?

A lot.

Come by the office............I'll be happy to show you.

ETA...........what could possibly be wrong with the Sure-Fire suppressors that (7 that I have personally witnessed, and more than 10 more for which ODR's are submitted in East Coast NSW alone) spontaneously fly off the gun? instatlled, IAW the pub supplied by SF, as part of the contract. Of course, this was also noted in the T&E, as well as the down-select. But at the end of the day, those of us who where in RDT&E only get to make recommendations. PM's and bean counters make the purchases.

[ASH556]

The thread is about which AR you recommend to folks. Molon correctly pointed out that it helps to know what the end user wants to do with the rifle. Some dudes started pissing on certain brands because of (1) issues they have with industry "personalities" and/or (2) nit-picky fit and finish issues. We're talking about AR15's, not exhibition grade shotguns. What is takes to make one work reliably is pretty simple and well known by a lot of folks. There are also a lot of folks who either don't know what it takes to make one run and/or have some other agenda that makes them push a different (usually inferior) product. At the end of the day, it's all a game of odds, so let's throw out the outliers (good and bad) and focus on rifles that do the job when upon to. The best way to tell that statistically (without going and firing them) is to identify failures and then do things to correct those. Magically, Stoner (initially) and the US military (for the last 5 decades) have pretty much done that for us. Yet, people still cannot appropriately size gas ports, choose materials, or torque and stake things as they should be.

Once you reach that point (and not before) you can MAYBE concern yourself with suppressor shift, sloppy selectors and carbon-encrusted bolt tails.
This thread reminds me of a recent conversation I had with the manager of the shop where I do part-time work. He came to me all excited about some new Otis-branded AR15 bolt cleaning tool and asked what I thought. I told him I thought it was an unnecessary gadget and not worth stocking. He got a little huffy and asked me, "Well how do you clean the carbon off of your AR15 bolts?" I answered, "I don't, it's an unnecessary waste of time." He looked at me like I was crazy and ordered some anyway. Oh well. I'm sure they'll sell.

Unobtanium, how do the rifles that had crazy suppressor shift shoot without the suppressor mounted? Same mounts? Pinned/welded or threaded? Have you tried a different can on these rifles?
Despite any of the above answers, a close friend who does these things for a living told me suppressor shift is a non-issue. If what you're doing really requires that much precision, you should have all your dope collected using the can anyway...makes sense to me.

[LittleLebowski]

Our SMEs may not be able to list their resume. Please don't construe that as a lack of experience or vetting. I know that no one has questioned our SMEs in this thread but I'd like to remind folks SMEs are part of Pistol-Forum.com. If Sean told me to prepare for invasion tomorrow, I'd be loading mags tonight :D

[Suvorov]

What could possibly be wrong?

A lot.

Come by the office............I'll be happy to show you.

I would LOVE to stop by the office and see! Just as long as I was an invited guest and not a "customer in need of servicing."

[Odin Bravo One]

Our SMEs may not be able to list their resume. Please don't construe that as a lack of experience or vetting. I know that no one has questioned our SMEs in this thread but I'd like to remind folks SMEs are part of Pistol-Forum.com. If Sean told me to prepare for invasion tomorrow, I'd be loading mags tonight :D

I have listed as many details as required and are public record for this post, as well as the "PF.com is turning to shit" thread I posted in the Romper Room.............wanna know where I am coming from? Look.

Don't like me, or my attitude?

I'll probably lose sleep over it.

[Unobtanium]

What could possibly be wrong?

A lot.

Come by the office............I'll be happy to show you.

ETA...........what could possibly be wrong with the Sure-Fire suppressors that (7 that I have personally witnessed, and more than 10 more for which ODR's are submitted in East Coast NSW alone) spontaneously fly off the gun? instatlled, IAW the pub supplied by SF, as part of the contract. Of course, this was also noted in the T&E, as well as the down-select. But at the end of the day, those of us who where in RDT&E only get to make recommendations. PM's and bean counters make the purchases.

I'm certainly not saying you're giving me incorrect info, but I have never before seen or heard of a Surefire suppressor spontaneously launching downrange. Can you give me more details as to how this is possible/happened/what the mechanism of failure is? I would love to come by the office, but based on your location, that's not feasible. PM sent.

[Odin Bravo One]

Didn't get it............ETA........NEVERMIND..........got it. Too many to begin to describe with my hunt and peck typing. Spent the entire day just posting replies to other threads here!!!! Literally.

Short answer...........design flaw.

Same one I pointed out years ago to the Sure-Fire engineers, along with the other that causes unpredictable shift. The lambskin condom framed on the wall means fuck all to me when I have seen it happen............had it happen on a few occasions...........DURING THE INITIAL TESTING WITH THE ENGINEERS PRESENT!!!

At the end of the day, most suppressors have a POI shift..........it is predictability in that shift that is more important to me. On a carbine, it does matter.

On an AT&T gun, it matters a metric fuck ton.............

[NerdAlert]

Just wanted to chime in. I'm am going to be buying my first AR in the near future and I am glad I found this thread on PF after reading tons at m4c and ARF. Thanks for the info, and I'm glad to hear that s&w has a good rep. I am a mechanically inclined gun dork so spending time making an AR run correctly if needed is not outside my wheelhouse. Heck I would want to learn to tear it apart anyhow.

On another note I just wanted to say that before the "ARF derp" thread I had no idea that Sean M was an SME since I view forum on tapatalk. This thread proves to me that there is MUCH less derp here than on the other gun boards, simply because people are
Speaking rationally about "commercial grade" guns and their intended purpose.

In ARF com or m4c anyone who stepped outside the lines and recommended something other than what the OP suggested would have been mocked. The fact is, as others have said, there is a place for commercial guns in the market, and not everyone has to have "TDP" and perfect fit and finish. Thanks for the real talk and cutting through the derp/BS.




Sent from my iPhone, I apologize in advance for typos.

[TR675]

In ARF com or m4c anyone who stepped outside the lines and recommended something other than what the OP suggested would have been mocked. The fact is, as others have said, there is a place for commercial guns in the market, and not everyone has to have "TDP" and perfect fit and finish. Thanks for the real talk and cutting through the derp/BS.

My favorite thread on M4c was the dude who started bitching about how the people on another forum weren't paying attention to his good advice about "tier 1" carbines and insisted on buying garbage like DPMS. Turned out he was recommending BCM carbines to a forum full of prairie dog hunters...

Having said that, if you're inclined to tinker it's hard not to just say "6920" and then suggest tinkering with a spare upper until you get it the way you like it for whatever purpose.

[KevinB]

Just curious as to what people's opinions & preferences are. When someone asks me which AR they should get, I typically respond with Colt, BCM, or Daniel Defense & to top it with an Aimpoint PRO. I recently just picked up a DDM4V5 & and am really digging that rifle.


What are they gonna do with it? The AR I would suggest to the guy who has a budget of $650 and wants to shoot a box of ammo a year will be different from what I tell the guy who has $3000 and wants to Larp in a shemagh class.


Going back to the original question - Orion nailed it (although somewhat overly sarcastic).


I don't really like 16" 5.56mm guns. As everything I want in a personal 5.56mm gun is solved by an 11.5" gun.
However I do understand those who do not wish to be encumbered by the NFA, so the 16" gun in that ways makes sense.

Ask yourself a number of questions
1) What is your budget
2) What do you want to do with the gun
3) How many rounds a year are you going to shoot/lifecycle of the gun.


My wife has a 16" KAC SR-15E3 Mod2 with a Leupold Mk6 1-6x on it -- she shoots it for 3 gun. Gun shoots nicely under 1MOA with decent ammo - and with the brake recoil is next to nil.

Now is that a good CQB gun -- no - but for her wants/needs it works, and should SHTF she can add a can.

For folks looking for a non NFA HD gun - a decent 5.56mm gun with a CCO and Light will work fine, I would recommend a decent 2pt sling as well, WITH A FLASH HIDER, NOT A MUZZLE BRAKE

[Unobtanium]

Going back to the original question - Orion nailed it (although somewhat overly sarcastic).


I don't really like 16" 5.56mm guns. As everything I want in a personal 5.56mm gun is solved by an 11.5" gun.
However I do understand those who do not wish to be encumbered by the NFA, so the 16" gun in that ways makes sense.

Ask yourself a number of questions
1) What is your budget
2) What do you want to do with the gun
3) How many rounds a year are you going to shoot/lifecycle of the gun.


My wife has a 16" KAC SR-15E3 Mod2 with a Leupold Mk6 1-6x on it -- she shoots it for 3 gun. Gun shoots nicely under 1MOA with decent ammo - and with the brake recoil is next to nil.

Now is that a good CQB gun -- no - but for her wants/needs it works, and should SHITF she can add a can.

For folks looking for a non NFA HD gun - a decent 5.56mm gun with a CCO and Light will work fine, I would recommend a decent 2pt sling as well, WITH A FLASH HIDER, NOT A MUZZLE BRAKE

Kyle lamb convinced me that a 16" gun works well enough for cqb. Ymmv, but that guy could sure can handle one even in in a compact econocar..

[rob_s]

Ask yourself a number of questions
1) What is your budget
2) What do you want to do with the gun
3) lifecycle/frequency of use


These are the basic questions one should ask about any large purchase.

If the person requesting the information can't articulate responses, best to give the briefest response possible. Get asked about ARs/guns enough and you pretty much know what people are going to say in response to those 3 items. Over the weekend a friend (who is expecting his first child, this question almost always comes from dudes right before/after their woman has a child) asked what pistol and shotgun he should get. I told him "Glock 19 and Remington 870". He asked why, and I told him "because I said so". I just cut short an hour long conversation wherein the outcome would have been exactly the same.

[orionz06]

I told him "Glock 19 and Remington 870". He asked why, and I told him "because I said so". I just cut short an hour long conversation wherein the outcome would have been exactly the same.

Those and a 6920 are solid suggestions I'll stick with. When questioned I will justify it a little more than that by telling them that there is not enough info to stray from these suggestions.

[rob_s]

Those and a 6920 are solid suggestions I'll stick with. When questioned I will justify it a little more than that by telling them that there is not enough info to stray from these suggestions.

Its like anything else in that it depends on the person. It's pretty easy to get a sense of whether or not the person is ever even going to shoot the things, and which point it kind of doesn't matter what they buy. If they're interested in coming out and checking out a match or a practice night, then you have a better sense that they're interested in actually using the guns.

it's like the first time I went to a local car meet and asked all the other GTO guys what their 1/4 mile time was. I was shocked to find out that I was the only one with slips in the glovebox. Why on earth would anyone buy that ugly-ass car if it wasn't to go fast?

[MichaelD]

...it's like the first time I went to a local car meet and asked all the other GTO guys what their 1/4 mile time was. I was shocked to find out that I was the only one with slips in the glovebox. Why on earth would anyone buy that ugly-ass car if it wasn't to go fast?

It's no different than a BBQ gun or a Harley-riding accountant. It's about the illusion and image.


Before this thread, I hadn't even been aware of the S&W/Magpul middy, which looks like an excellent option for the money. I apparently need to get out more.

[JodyH]

As everything I want in a personal 5.56mm gun is solved by an 11.5" gun.
Preach on!
I have a 12" BCM with a AAC Ranger 2 that's my go to house carbine
MOE furniture, Surefire Mini-Scout WML, DD fixed rear sight, Tritium front sight
20 round PMAG of Black Hills 77gr. OTM 5.56

[Jay Cunningham]

For my own needs an 11.5" gun is about perfect.

[Odin Bravo One]

For my own needs...........all 19 are perfect for me.

But there are two that are "hands down", the best AR's I have.............the two I got for free.

[Duke2424]

Obviously, there is no single AR-15 configuration that “does it all” and the specifications you listed are actually quite demanding. Had you not included the “0-600m” requirement, I might have suggested something like the two barrels you just mentioned.

However, if you want to make consistently accurate hits at 600 meters with an AR-15 that is also going to serve as your “home defense” carbine as you stated, I’d personally want a barrel that gave the best compromise of accuracy and velocity to weight and handling; hence the Recon barrel suggestion.

Thank you for your insight. It is greatly appreciated!

[Elkhitman]

They are very hard to obtain. You can't just up and buy one and have it in hand in a timely manner.

Other than the fact that they are difficult to obtain, would they make your list. The reason I ask is a bought one recently. My LGS had several in stock so I bought a PredatAR. So far I love it, but don't hear to much about them.

[Mino]

I'm in no position to recommend because of lack of experience. However, this video put me on the right mindset. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rx10q2dcXDk&list=UUe9yHuiTE1ecyFV7uBiSSRA