Hornady .38 Special Critical Defense "Lite"?

[Tamara]

So, back when dinosaurs roamed the earth and the po-po used resolvers, there was the "Treasury" or "Q-load", a loud, flashy, 110gr +P+ jacketed hollow point that used a bullet designed back when engineers still used slide rules. Although some claimed 1200fps muzzle velocities from service revolvers, ~1000fps was more usual from a 2" snubbie, accompanied by a bunch of sturm und drang.

Now comes this Hornady "Lite" load (http://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/2014/08/golden-bbs.html) that's not even +P rated, uses a bullet designed in this millennium, and claims 1200 fps. (I haven't chronoed it yet.) I'm intrigued. Speer has had the .38 snubbie market wrapped up tight with its 135gr +P Gold Dot for a long time.

How does this stuff perform in standard testing?

[5pins]

Are they calming 1200 form a snubie?

[SWAT Lt.]

I'll start by saying I am one of the above referenced dinosaurs. :) Not too long before I was hired, my agency issued the then-fairly-new Winchester 38 +P 95 grain Silvertip (changed by the time I was hired to Remington 125 SJHP +P). R-P made a 38+P 95 SJHP at the time as well. I was told that marginable OIS results with the STHP round was the reason for the change. I know this CD Lite is a bullet of modern design and all, but I would think penetration to be .380 Auto-ish. The video on Hornady's website http://www.hornady.com/store/38-Special-90-gr-FTX-Critical-Defense-lite/ says penetration is "respectable" but provides no data. The CD Lite may be worth the trade off for folks who cannot handle/control the recoil of the heavier rounds.

[Tamara]

Are they calming 1200 form a snubie?

The box flap doesn't say. :D

(Hornady page says a 4" ventilated test barrel.)

[Wheeler]

The box flap doesn't say. :D

(Hornady page says a 4" ventilated test barrel.)

So there's a pretty good chance you're back to sub 1000 fps out of a pocket rocket, only with an updated bullet design?

[Tamara]

So there's a pretty good chance you're back to sub 1000 fps out of a pocket rocket...?

Waitin' to see what the chrono says.

[Stephen]

Amateur gel test on YouTube. 890fps on his chrono out of an LCR. 90 grains at 890fps sounds a lot like .380.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZ70135VFmo

Edit: here's another backyard gel test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98FYy29WGlA

[41magfan]

The original +P Super-Vel 110's would approach 1200 fps in a barrel at least 4" long, but even those wouldn't break a thousand out of a 2" tube. Pretty much every so-called +P load since has been a bit unimpressive when compared to the original "boutique" label that started it all.

[Wheeler]

I used to have 500 rounds of the Treasury Load that I carried in a 3" Model 65. In a show of bravado several years ago I shot it up in matches to prove to myself that I could be competitive with real carry ammo.

[Tamara]

I'll be chronoing a string from a 2" Model 64 and a string from... uh, lemme think... I guess a 4" Model 19.

(I need to buy a junky 4" Model 64 or 65 po-po trade-in gun for this sort of thing. I hate scrubbing guns after only 10 rounds, but I also hate coonfingering a pretty blued piece with sweaty hands at the range when it's hot and humid out and then putting it away dirty. I'd use my usual, slightly scruffy .38-44 Heavy Duty, but it's got a 5" tube.)

[Wheeler]

I'll be chronoing a string from a 2" Model 64 and a string from... uh, lemme think... I guess a 4" Model 19.

(I need to buy a junky 4" Model 64 or 65 po-po trade-in gun for this sort of thing. I hate scrubbing guns after only 10 rounds, but I also hate coonfingering a pretty blued piece with sweaty hands at the range when it's hot and humid out and then putting it away dirty. I'd use my usual, slightly scruffy .38-44 Heavy Duty, but it's got a 5" tube.)

If you weren't so darn far away I'd donate my 4" 67 for educational purposes.

[jetfire]

If you weren't so darn far away I'd donate my 4" 67 for educational purposes.

I have a 4 inch Tauresson 82 that you can have.

[Tamara]

I have a 4 inch Tauresson 82 that you can have.

Have your people call my people, and let me know what manner of solid you need done in return.

[jetfire]

Have your people call my people, and let me know what manner of solid you need done in return.

Many guns will change hands in exchange for goods and services! CAPITALISM

[Chuck Haggard]

Page 10; http://www.hornadyle.com/assets/site/files/2014-TAP-Catalog.pdf

That's the load to go to if you want your snubby turned into a five shot .380

[DocGKR]

In .38 Sp, I would eschew the 90 gr FTX "Lite" and stick with the 110 gr FTX if shooting Hornady ammo

[Tamara]

I just saw the pic of the 200gr .44 SPL FTX in clothed gel. I'm too depressed to talk right now.

[SAWBONES]

I'll be chronoing a string from a 2" Model 64 and a string from... uh, lemme think... I guess a 4" Model 19.

A Fed friend long ago let me shoot the "Treasury Load" from his 4" Model 19, which he said was indeed the then-favored weapon platform among the Federal "revolver cognoscenti".

I'm sticking with Remington (or Buffalo Bore) 158gr+P LSWCHP in 2" snubs, though.

[Tamara]

A Fed friend long ago let me shoot the "Treasury Load" from his 4" Model 19, which he said was indeed the then-favored weapon platform among the Federal "revolver cognoscenti".

This seems like an appropriate time to link to the 19 in question (http://cosmolineandrust.blogspot.com/2008/01/sunday-smith-29-model-19-5-1988.html). :D

[TR675]

I got unreasonably excited about the quoted prices until I looked at the date of the post...

[Rich]

Page 10; http://www.hornadyle.com/assets/site/files/2014-TAP-Catalog.pdf

That's the load to go to if you want your snubby turned into a five shot .380

LOL

I just wish for a 147 to 158gr load. Still bugging federal/ATK about a HST 38spl+P load (up date the old 147gr 38spl +P+ hydra shok)

[Rich]

This seems like an appropriate time to link to the 19 in question (http://cosmolineandrust.blogspot.com/2008/01/sunday-smith-29-model-19-5-1988.html). :D

Like a Fool I sold my 2 M19`s thinking that S&W would always make them. Still like the M10 and M13 better

[Chuck Haggard]

Hornady seriously needs to make a 130gr Critical Defense that mimics the ballistics/recoil of all of the 130gr ball ammo floating around nowadays.

[Totem Polar]

I just wish for a 147 to 158gr load. Still bugging federal/ATK about a HST 38spl+P load (up date the old 147gr 38spl +P+ hydra shok)
This


Hornady seriously needs to make a 130gr Critical Defense that mimics the ballistics/recoil of all of the 130gr ball ammo floating around nowadays.
and this.

[Chuck Haggard]

LOL

I just wish for a 147 to 158gr load. Still bugging federal/ATK about a HST 38spl+P load (up date the old 147gr 38spl +P+ hydra shok)

158gr lead, add a hit from the punch they use to make the HST hollow points, Nyclad the bullet...................

[Wheeler]

158gr lead, add a hit from the punch they use to make the HST hollow points, Nyclad the bullet...................

I still have a box of nyclads floating around in the lair.

[RevolverRob]

158gr lead, add a hit from the punch they use to make the HST hollow points, Nyclad the bullet...................

This^^^^

Although a 147-grain HST +P would probably shoot close enough to POA that I'd be happy with it.

I miss my revolvers....

So, Tam when are you going to Chrono the "lite" loads? For some psychotic reason, I have in my head that I want one of those chintzy 8-ounce Taurus "Views" for deep carry and I'm about half convinced I'd have to load it with 148-grain WCs or maybe HBWC loaded upside down like I'm still in the 1970s.

-Rob

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I had a box of 9mm Nyclads. I might still have 10 of so left.

I shot up my 38 Nyclads.

[Wheeler]

I had a box of 9mm Nyclads. I might still have 10 of so left.

I shot up my 38 Nyclads.

The only reason I have any is I hid them from myself.

[Chuck Haggard]

Wadcutters ain't a bad carry load. Just sayin

[LHS]

Wadcutters ain't a bad carry load. Just sayin

That's what's in my 642. I'd rather have a good load that I can afford to practice with, than a great load that shoots completely differently than my practice load. WCs fit that bill. Plus I can roll my own.

[RevolverRob]

Wadcutters ain't a bad carry load. Just sayin

I love wadcutters! Especially when my carpal tunnel flares up bad. Load them in a D-Frame and go on with life.

[Frank R]

My LCR is loaded with CorBon DPX 110gr.+P. They're rated at 1050fps from a 2" barrel.

[warpedcamshaft]

I've loaded J-Frames with 148 Grain Match Wadcutters and used Critical Defense 110's in speed strips for reloads for a couple years now.

I have messed up a nerve in my thumb a few times over the years with frequent J-Frame shooting, and find that the 148 wadcutters cause less problems for me than shooting piles of 130 grain FMJ ammo.

In my mind, the mild wadcutter casings seem to eject better with the tiny ejector rod on a 1 7/8 inch gun than +P pressure ammunition... but I might be crazy.

(If I could find some, I'd probably switch to Cor-Bon DPX now...)

[Tamara]

Well, I took the 2" Model 64 to the range today.

The Hornady 90gr Critical Defense went like thus:
LO: 912.0
HI: 974.7
AV: 955.6
ES: 62.65
SD: 22.53

For giggles, I also brought along some old Winchester 95gr +P Silvertips...
LO: 932.5
HI: 997.0
AV: 961.6
ES: 64.52
SD: 22.13

I do have to note that the newer Hornady load achieved very similar ballistics with a fraction of the subjective drama. The Silvertip load was noisier, had greater subjective recoil, and probably would have looked like a flashbulb going off in a dark room. By contrast, the Critical Defense was hardly less pleasant out of the 2" stainless K-frame than 148gr wadcutters...

Since the 64 has been my bedside gun for pretty much over a decade now, and the Golden Sabers in the cylinder have been there for probably the last four years, I cranked them off at the steel plates. I was happy to go five-for-six double action on the 8" plate at 25+ yards.

[LSP552]

Well, I took the 2" Model 64 to the range today.

For giggles, I also brought along some old Winchester 95gr +P Silvertips...
LO: 932.5
HI: 997.0
AV: 961.6
ES: 64.52
SD: 22.13



I would have lost money betting that was a 110 gr load. Never knew they made a .380 long rifle.

Ken

[Tamara]

Never knew they made a .380 long rifle.

That tickled my funny bone. Thanks! :)

(I was surprised that there was noticeable white muzzle flash from the Silvertips at high noon on a cloudless early September day. Those things must go off like a camera flash in a dark room.)

[Tamara]

So there's a pretty good chance you're back to sub 1000 fps out of a pocket rocket, only with an updated bullet design?

You called it in one. :)

[BobM]

The 95 grain Silvertip was our duty load in our Security Sixes when I started at the PD.

[Chuck Haggard]

The 95 grain Silvertip was our duty load in our Security Sixes when I started at the PD.


That's scary as hell.

[BobM]

I didn't know very much about that stuff in 1989 but I didn't have much confidence in it. By mid 1990 we had 9mms, with 115 gr Silvertips.

[Lester Polfus]

By mid 1990 we had 9mms, with 115 gr Silvertips.

Well, at least that was MORE bullets. I forget how bad the bad old days were sometimes...

[Jaywalker]

http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/p/ammo-tests.html Velocity and gel.