Bruce Gray VP9 Trigger Work.

[JBP55]

A message on the VP9 trigger from Bruce Gray.



**Please stay tuned for a word from Mr. Gray, soon**

Thanks, Rick. I'm here to announce a new GGI action package, for the VP9:

This Trijicon HD-equipped and Damon Young-stippled VP9 was subjected to our first fully developed action package for this new model. After staring blankly at it for a month (well, not really...he's been studying this thing like a teenage boy at a nudist colony), Ricky detailed every action component in his usual obsessive manner. We solved the OEM trigger bar spring bearing failure problem with a new three-strand spring and unitized bearing (which we'll market as a drop-in fix ASAP, as it's needed), he invented a trick over travel stop, and adjusted the action to yield a 4 pound 4 ounce dead-crisp pull with a wicked short and snappy reset without diminishing sear or safety engagement values. All internal action parts are finished in our proprietary electroless nickel-PTFE. Its perfect.

The only downbside is on our end: these newfangled HK striker guns are very challenging to work on technically, and very tricky to reassemble. It's not a fast job, but by Elvis the results are there, solid as can be.

We'll ask Steve from Spider Creations to put this new package up on Grayguns.com ASAP. We're still backed up, of course, but Rick's doing a better job of keeping up on his Crew's backlog than I have on the SIG side. Call him or me for a quote, with our thanks!

-Bruce

[YVK]

I am going to start with a disclaimer that I like GGI work. In fact and coincidentally, I just paid them almost a grand for services rendered.

That said, I will not carry a gun with a 4.25 lbs, short takeup, no safety, 100% cocked striker gun. I said it when PPQ came out, and I am saying it now.

[Stephen]

That said, I will not carry a gun with a 4.25 lbs, short takeup, no safety, 100% cocked striker gun. I said it when PPQ came out, and I am saying it now.

I wonder why more companies don't do what Smith did with the M&Ps and offer thumb safeties as an option on their striker guns. I think those of us who desire that feature would be happy to pay more to cover the extra production expense. I guess they don't think enough people want it.

[LittleLebowski]

That said, I will not carry a gun with a 4.25 lbs, short takeup, no safety, 100% cocked striker gun. I said it when PPQ came out, and I am saying it now.

Yup.

[Mjolnir]

Maybe it's just me but that package is not needed...


-------------------------------------
"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."

[JHC]

What "OEM trigger bar spring bearing failure problem" ?

[GJM]

Interesting on this failure -- first I heard of it was in the Sig Forum thread. Also interesting on VP9 versus 320 comments, reference complexity of the VP9 as a negative.

[tomr]

Back on the original longer thread announcing the new VP9, I stirred the pot a little with my explanation of T&E guns, how they work and how there was a lag between the delivery of those, (with universally positive comments) and the production gun deliveries - inferring maybe these were potentially not the same. Fearing I knew better, but jonesing to buy a new pistol, I ignored my own advice and bought in. I quite agree with GJM re the trigger, not just the creep, but the angle and feel of it vs the FNS. What's intriguing is how the story is just sort of easing its way out. This Gray Guns announcement - like "yea there's a known problem and we've got the fix." Sorry don't mean to put words in their mouth, but interesting how the real story seems to be kind of just easing its way out. Ive called H&K a couple times asking for advice. They've been willing to take the gun back and check it over, but each rep has said, "Gee, we haven't heard of any problems." Looking inside the VP and a Glock, one has to wonder - which of these really came first? 4 years in development? Sounds good till you think about it. At Remington, in the '80s it was 3 years from idea to warehouse. This is 2014. CAD, CAM and CNC are well entrenched. Lest I sound totally negative, I really like the gun. The ergonomics are great. It shoots where I look. But wasn't the trigger what this was all about?

[YVK]

What "OEM trigger bar spring bearing failure problem" ?

First I hear of it.


P.S. your pm mailbox is full.

[DiscipulusArmorum]

Here's a bit of explanation from Mr. Gray re: the above comments, and it looks like we'll hear more soon:


I'm jumping the gun, so to speak, as my next post is going to be a more in depth comparison of the VP9 and the P320. I am an honest broker, and I believe my friends here can trust that I don't BS or sugarcoat anything. As nicely as I can, we will give credit where credit is due: the VP9 has some really good qualities on a shooter-interface level. But...that's not all there is to a truly practical service pistol, is it?

So, I'll say here and now that Rick and I were frankly astonished at what we saw when we first took it apart and examined it. And not all in a good way, to say the least. That flaky trigger bar spring and bearing arrangement is just one aspect that left us wondering aloud and shaking our heads.

Having shot and worked on both platforms for many years, there really are very good reasons why I came to prefer SIGs in general, and the new P320 in particular. This new VP9 exemplifies that reasoning in a number of key ways. I shall make that case for your consideration in my next piece here.


Post on Sigforum (http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/430601935/m/9510067063?r=8730038063#8730038063) (My apologies if links to other forums are not allowed, just wanted to cite the source, not trying to promote another site)

[LittleLebowski]

Here's a bit of explanation from Mr. Gray re: the above comments, and it looks like we'll hear more soon:



Post on Sigforum (http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/430601935/m/9510067063?r=8730038063#8730038063) (My apologies if links to other forums are not allowed, just wanted to cite the source, not trying to promote another site)

Posting from other forums is fine so long as the information is openly shared, as it is in this case. Interesting thread.

[LSP972]

What "OEM trigger bar spring bearing failure problem" ?


Yeah. I posted that exact query on the Sig Forum thread that mentioned it.

I'm beginning to wonder about Mr. Gray. I do not doubt his knowledge and experience. But I handled a Sig P320 the other day, and it struck me as… cheap. Heck, the slide was moving every time I pressed the trigger! And the trigger itself felt more rinky-dink than a stock Glock trigger, to me. Yet, in that afore-mentioined thread, Mr. Gray says pretty clearly that he thinks the P320 is a better pistol than the VP9.

Which makes me wonder… kind of like the time a gun mechanic that I had the highest confidence in told me that, "Glock is TEN times the gun that HK is!"

Uh… okay, bud, moving on here…

Mind you, I am not trying to venture into HKFanboyLand. I have them, like them better than the other brands I also own.

Anyway… this is a bit interesting, to say the least.

.

[JHC]

Personally I'm more intrigued by the chassis engineering of the 320 and the simplicity inherent.

What I've noticed from a few early adopters here and on a couple other forums with a lot of early adopters is that the variations in trigger pull quality is pretty apparent, as well as fit and finish in slide to frame assembly, some reset variations and trigger slap of all things (a phenom I have no familiarity with). I'm sure it'll work out to be a very nice striker fired option for many. But the dawn of a brave new world of service pistols; probably not.

It could get tricky for HK to have a complex design that they are trying to mass produce in larger quantities at a lower price point. It has appeared to me that conventional wisdom thought HK to be immune to QC problems that lesser companies battle.

[JHC]

… kind of like the time a gun mechanic that I had the highest confidence in told me that, "Glock is TEN times the gun that HK is!"

Uh… okay, bud, moving on here…

Mind you, I am not trying to venture into HKFanboyLand. I have them, like them better than the other brands I also own.

Anyway… this is a bit interesting, to say the least.

.

That could be explained by someone that values different attributes than you may have assumed you shared. Simplicity is a valuable attribute in its own right for extended service life and maintenance for large fleets of guns.

A close friend who goes back and forth to AFG in a training capacity reports that they have 1100 G19s in service being used as training pistols year round and they get minimal maintenance or even cleaning and are just trouble free treated like the proverbial lawnmowers.

[gtmtnbiker98]

I'm skeptical of the VP9 "issues" discovered, and will leave it at that. Yes, it is over complicated, but aren't all HK's?

[YVK]

Yes, I find it interesting that GGI folks find a VP9 over complicated. I mean this is a shop known for their P7M8 work that they seem to hold in a high regard. .


Re trigger bar spring, HK experts should correct me if I am wrong, but is it not a copy of a Mark23 design that passed all kind of torture tests?

[Dr. No]

YVK that is correct.

I think most people who are complaining about the VP9 being more complicated are comparing it to Glocks and the USP. Both have very simple designs. It's a new design, it's going to be different.

I still have yet to hear what this 'malfunction' is ... I hear a lot about these guns and this is the first I've ever heard of any problems.

[BoppaBear]

No problems with my VP so far, other than wanting to burn up ammo I should be shooting in my P30 or sk...the VP is great, AFAIK, but I will be limiting it's ammo ration to the guns I carry and shoot the most....

[Comedian]

Bruce Gray has always leaned heavily to the Sig side of the fence. Nothing new here.

[GJM]

I am struck by so many unusual things about the VP9.

1) how long it took HK to develop this pistol.

2) how powerful the HK brand is, that normally cautious folks gushed about this pistol as the ultimate striker with no long term experience with it. Conversely, how bad the Sig brand has fallen, that most of those same folks gushing about the VP9 assumed the 320 intro would be screwed up.

3) that after waiting decades for an HK with a good trigger, most people seem to prefer actually carrying their hammer model HK pistols.

4) that Bruce Gray refers to this part problem as if it is commonly known, and most haven't heard of it -- suggesting there is more to the story.

5) that the pistol HK marketed as having the best stock striker trigger ever, might need a big bucks trigger job.

6) that Gray Guns would develop a package making a pre-cocked, no thumb safety trigger even shorter and lighter.

[Dr. No]

I am struck by so many unusual things about the VP9.

3) that after waiting decades for an HK with a good trigger, most people seem to prefer actually carrying their hammer model HK pistols.

4) that Bruce Gray refers to this part problem as if it is commonly known, and most haven't heard of it -- suggesting there is more to the story.

5) that the pistol HK marketed as having the best stock striker trigger ever, might need a big bucks trigger job.

6) that Gray Guns would develop a package making a pre-cocked, no thumb safety trigger even shorter and lighter.

I think it's a bad comparison - this is a wide divergence from what HK folks are used to, so it will take some getting used to. A lot of people have firm beliefs on what they think is best, and a no-safety striker is much different than the hammer w/safety they are used to. Personally I prefer hammer and safety (grew up on 1911's) but I have also carried a Glock so ...

I honestly am bewildered about it. I'd like to hear more from someone who knows more than just repeating that they heard there was a problem.

Has there ever been a factory built pistol that has not "needed" a trigger job? GGI is very proud of their gunsmithing work, always have been. They have enough work to justify it, I guess.

Isn't that the race? Faster, quicker, shorter?

[tomr]

Its a little soon - but still kinda mebbe fun..... How about a new poll?

And the winner is?
Glock
S&W
H&K
Sig
FNH
Walther
CZ

[LittleLebowski]

I'm looking forward to seeing if this factory part actually breaks out in the wild.

[tomr]

I am struck by so many unusual things about the VP9.

1) how long it took HK to develop this pistol.

2) how powerful the HK brand is, that normally cautious folks gushed about this pistol as the ultimate striker with no long term experience with it. Conversely, how bad the Sig brand has fallen, that most of those same folks gushing about the VP9 assumed the 320 intro would be screwed up.

3) that after waiting decades for an HK with a good trigger, most people seem to prefer actually carrying their hammer model HK pistols.

4) that Bruce Gray refers to this part problem as if it is commonly known, and most haven't heard of it -- suggesting there is more to the story.

5) that the pistol HK marketed as having the best stock striker trigger ever, might need a big bucks trigger job.

6) that Gray Guns would develop a package making a pre-cocked, no thumb safety trigger even shorter and lighter.

Indeed.

[GJM]

I honestly am bewildered about it. I'd like to hear more from someone who knows more than just repeating that they heard there was a problem.

My reaction is that when Joe Sixpack says there is a problem, I don't necessarily pay much attention. When someone with Bruce Gray's expertise says the new P224 .40 is under sprung, or the new VP9 has a problem, I take notice. After all, Bruce Gray's shop is THE shop when it comes to HK mods.

The obvious possibilities are he is mistaken, crying wolf, or it is something we will hear more about in the future.

[GJM]

http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/430601935/m/9510067063/p/2


From Bruce Gray in this thread:

The trigger bar spring is a long 3-stranded affair that's bent into a S-curve. It's specific shape is critical to function. The bottom rear end rests in a hole in the frame, while the upper forward end is supposed to sit in a blind hole in a small, round plastic bearing that connects the spring to the trigger bar. The spring relies entirely on it's critical shape to stay put in that tiny bearing's shallow hole, and to stay out of the way of the magazine in the mag well mortise.

I've heard tell of a couple instances where the spring jumped out of the bearing, which Rick also experienced with the VP9 here. If that happens, the party's over for trigger reset function.

In my opinion this is an example of the sort of questionable over-engineering that we see in this new pistol. I'm not a fan of outre' complexity where proven simplicity does the job better.

[LittleLebowski]

HK has a reputation for over engineering. HK doesn't have a reputation for said over engineering failing.

[LSP972]

HK has a reputation for over engineering. HK doesn't have a reputation for said over engineering failing.

Exactly.

.

[LittleLebowski]

My reaction is that when Joe Sixpack says there is a problem, I don't necessarily pay much attention. When someone with Bruce Gray's expertise says the new P224 .40 is under sprung, or the new VP9 has a problem, I take notice. After all, Bruce Gray's shop is THE shop when it comes to HK mods.

The obvious possibilities are he is mistaken, crying wolf, or it is something we will hear more about in the future.

Or, that he's a businessman and sees an opportunity.

[GJM]

HK has a reputation for over engineering. HK doesn't have a reputation for said over engineering failing.

I don't see this as related to reputation.

Reputation is what causes folks to gush over something (VP9), or express skepticism (Sig320), at new product introduction absent significant real world experience.

What Bruce Gray is doing is the normal part of a product going from concept to reality. Smart people look at something, and try to pick holes in the design. People shoot them a bunch, exposing the pistol more. Other people of varying competency take them apart and (try) to put them back together. With the VP9, because of HK's reputation and the buzz this pistol caused, this process is probably accelerated.

From my perspective, HK has done a fine job with the VP9 introduction. I can't remember a manufacturer doing a better intro, especially a manufacturer with HK's reputation for being unable to sell free sex. Now the VP9 enters the process of becoming a mature product, which necessarily involves exposing the warts (if any) with the design. Look forward to what happens with this issue Bruce has identified, seeing more people do a deep dive into the details, and to the inevitable things that will pop up as more VP9s get out there and accumulate round counts.

A Glock that functions as designed sets a pretty high bar as to shootability, simplicity and the ability for it to be kept running. The VP9 potentially offers better performance at the cost of additional complexity and some more initial cost. It will be fascinating to see whether the VP9 makes significant inroads into Glock's market share over the upcoming months and years.

[gunner76]

Or, that he's a businessman and sees an opportunity.
until I hear reports of VP's failing in owners hands this is what I'm thinking. In order to stay busy a person has to find new things for people to spend their money on and sometimes that ends up being a fix for a problem that doesn't exist.

[LSP972]

Or, that he's a businessman and sees an opportunity.

The more I read about this (here and on the SigForum thread that started it all), the more I think you may have hit it straight on the head with that supposition.

.

[JohnN]

I guess we won't know about long term reliability this early but with 2300rds through mine so far with no additional lubrication there have been zero issues. Going to run another 700rds in the next couple of weeks and see how it looks. There is very little visible wear even on the barrel hood.

Performance wise, I don't see a lot of difference between the Gen4 G17 and the VP9. Quite frankly, my CGW P07 is still my main carry gun and I seem to be able to shoot it a little bit quicker and more accurately on FAST drills and Dot Torture. Honestly however I have been concentrating on shooting TDA pistols for the last year.

[Spr1]

Based on HK's obvious high level of engineering expertise, my assumption would be that HK weighed where costs could be cut without compromising reliability using some variant of an FMEA (Failure Modes and Effects Analysis) process, and then tested their assumptions rigorously.

[LittleLebowski]

The more I read about this (here and on the SigForum thread that started it all), the more I think you may have hit it straight on the head with that supposition.

.

I have no bone to pick with anyone at that site and don't know anything about GG really, but that's a nice business for a pistolsmith, selling that "needed" part along with installation work as part of a package.

[David S.]

Based on HK's obvious high level of engineering expertise, my assumption would be that HK weighed where costs could be cut without compromising reliability using some variant of an FMEA (Failure Modes and Effects Analysis) process, and then tested their assumptions rigorously.

Ok.... Don't they all do that?

[GJM]

I don't know Bruce Gray, but a number of these comments seem unfair to a guy, whose shop represents the gold standard in trigger work on Sig and HK pistols.

We applauded Randy Lee for bringing out Apex parts for the M&P trigger/extractor, and again for his Glock extractor. Presumably Randy was motivated by bringing out better parts and making a profit. Why shouldn't we also applaud Bruce for the same kind of initiative for something for the VP9, as he did with the P series extractor? If the part is unnecessary, don't put it in.

[Nik the Greek]

Or, that he's a businessman and sees an opportunity.

I respect the work done at Gray Guns, but given that I haven't heard word one about this issue over the course of weeks of semi-obsessive reading about the VP9, range reports, reviews, 2000 round challenges etc., I reluctantly came to the same suspicion.

The VP9 really doesnt need trigger work. At all. Mine doesn't anyway.

[GardoneVT]

I don't own an HK, so I don't have a dog in this fight. But in my estimation the gun is just too new for anyone to know what foibles it has, if any. Until we can get reliable reports of folks running five figure round counts through their pistols, its just supposition . Bruce Gray may be right, and he may not be. Well find out in a few months' time.

At the risk of going OT, I'm a believer in the principle that no wise consumer should buy the first version of ANY product . Guns, cars, electronics, etc, even the best firms make mistakes in the first batch of product .

[PPGMD]

From my perspective, HK has done a fine job with the VP9 introduction. I can't remember a manufacturer doing a better intro, especially a manufacturer with HK's reputation for being unable to sell free sex.

Hk has always had sold out intros with people gushing about them. As they've always had a very vocal motivated fan base. It is the long term market that Hk has always had trouble getting. The question is, will Hks intro sell enough that they actually will be a serious player than their usual "also ran" status.

[JBP55]

I respect the work done at Gray Guns, but given that I haven't heard word one about this issue over the course of weeks of semi-obsessive reading about the VP9, range reports, reviews, 2000 round challenges etc., I reluctantly came to the same suspicion.

The VP9 really doesnt need trigger work. At all. Mine doesn't anyway.


The only one I have fired belongs to a friend and had to have the trigger worked on by a Gunsmith when new. Trigger was bad out of the box. The trigger is much better now and I shot a slow fire 15 round group at 25 yards about the same as I shoot my Gen 4 G34 Glock.

[Nik the Greek]

GJM, I think there's an important distinction to be made between Lee's work and this situation. The APEX parts emerged as a response to a widely reported and verifiable problem that hundreds if not thousands of users were experiencing. While there's a possibility that this will end up being an issue for the VP9, it is definitely *not* being reported as one until now. That casts a negative light on the language that's being used here, when the presented solution seems to be for a perceived issue that may or may not actually exist. It also potentially begins the rumor mill of "oh, so I heard there's a problem with the VP9", when such a problem hasn't previously been reported.

JB, what was wrong with that example's trigger? Did you ever find out what the smith did?

[LSP972]

Did you ever find out what the smith did?

And what "smith"? Somebody local? Please… don't tell me Eduardo…


.

[GJM]

GJM, I think there's an important distinction to be made between Lee's work and this situation. The APEX parts emerged as a response to a widely reported and verifiable problem that hundreds if not thousands of users were experiencing. While there's a possibility that this will end up being an issue for the VP9, it is definitely *not* being reported as one until now. That casts a negative light on the language that's being used here, when the presented solution seems to be for a perceived issue that may or may not actually exist. It also potentially begins the rumor mill of "oh, so I heard there's a problem with the VP9", when such a problem hasn't previously been reported.

JB, what was wrong with that example's trigger? Did you ever find out what the smith did?

Perhaps chicken versus egg, but consider the following. Did Randy Lee develop his parts because hundreds or thousands of folks reported crappy triggers, or did Randy simply look at the design and think "I can do better?" At the end if the day, does it matter what the motivation was.

As to this issue, Bruce will turn out to be right or wrong. Us speculating as to the outcome now is just that -- speculation. I think we are better off for him to speculate about a potential problem and be wrong, then to notice a possible problem and be silent. Slightly different, but if I was the developmental test pilot for Boeing, I would much rather err in the side of caution, than assume Boeing (or HK or whoever) has the best engineers are, and must be right with the original design!

[JBP55]

And what "smith"? Somebody local? Please… don't tell me Eduardo…


.

It was purchased and repaired at Jim's Firearms and I am under the impression the gunsmith that did the work was Savant.

[JBP55]

GJM, I think there's an important distinction to be made between Lee's work and this situation. The APEX parts emerged as a response to a widely reported and verifiable problem that hundreds if not thousands of users were experiencing. While there's a possibility that this will end up being an issue for the VP9, it is definitely *not* being reported as one until now. That casts a negative light on the language that's being used here, when the presented solution seems to be for a perceived issue that may or may not actually exist. It also potentially begins the rumor mill of "oh, so I heard there's a problem with the VP9", when such a problem hasn't previously been reported.

JB, what was wrong with that example's trigger? Did you ever find out what the smith did?

It was very gritty before the break and felt as if the trigger spring was catching on something then it would jump and release.
I dry fired it before it was repaired and shot it after the repair and it was much better. The owner was told they fixed the trigger. If I learn more I will post here.

[LSP972]

It was purchased and repaired at Jim's Firearms and I am under the impression the gunsmith that did the work was Savant.

Okay. I'll ask Brian next time I see him.

.

[Stephen]

I don't know Bruce Gray, but a number of these comments seem unfair to a guy, whose shop represents the gold standard in trigger work on Sig and HK pistols.

I agree with that. I don't think its cool to accuse him of making things up for profit because he criticized your favorite brand.

[JHC]

GJM, I think there's an important distinction to be made between Lee's work and this situation. The APEX parts emerged as a response to a widely reported and verifiable problem that hundreds if not thousands of users were experiencing. While there's a possibility that this will end up being an issue for the VP9, it is definitely *not* being reported as one until now. That casts a negative light on the language that's being used here, when the presented solution seems to be for a perceived issue that may or may not actually exist. It also potentially begins the rumor mill of "oh, so I heard there's a problem with the VP9", when such a problem hasn't previously been reported.

JB, what was wrong with that example's trigger? Did you ever find out what the smith did?


Maybe this is related to Gray Guns findings: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Le-q6IHMGqI

Several VP9 users on a couple boards have said their guns will do this and Larry Vickers posted in one of those discussions that his pistol did this and it worried him but when it didn't manifest in live fire, he disregarded it. But it may indicate a gun set up on the very limits of its envelope for functioning. Other users have posted on the big HK board that they've sent their gun back to HK for a reset that required the full release of the trigger. Good news is that HK CS sounds incredibly responsive with fast turnarounds. Clearly its not all guns as most report a pretty good trigger and pretty good reset.

There are just not that many guns out there or that many rounds downrange yet. It took a few months and a lot of guns in 2010 before the Gen 4 G17 feces hit the fan. Then many people argue the point that some of those problems wouldn't crop up until north of 3K rounds. I had a hard time believing at first since our early 17s and 19s ran great and still do but when very knowledgeable folks - like some members of PF and others confirmed it . . . there was something wrong.

[JohnN]

As I understand it Mr. Gray was furnished a gun by a customer to examine and determine how to make the trigger better. Jeez....this is what Bruce does for a living....figure out how to make a platform perform to its full potential. Of course he is going to exploit a problem if he has a fix, who wouldn't given his job description.

[John Hearne]

I don't know who here knows Bruce but he is not some sleezy snake oil salesman looking to make a buck. Bruce is much more like a shooting and mechanical engineering savant.

Bruce is the kind of guy that most us should appreciate. He is a world class shooter of a skill level rarely seen in the gunsmithing world. He is the guy that is constantly looking to make improvements to existing designs - the kind of improvements you have to be a really good shooter to appreciate. If Bruce looks at a design and says it's weak or could be improved, I am very inclined to believe him.

I have been a part of his attempts (as a beta tester and current user) to fix the horribly designed extractor that Sig foisted on the public. There are still people on SigForum that believe that Bruce is selling a solution to a non-existent problem with his improved extractor. These are people who lucked out and got a "good" extractor and/or haven't shot their safe queen enough to break it yet. As someone who's been through all kinds of crap, trying to get my guns to run, I deeply appreciate the efforts Bruce has gone to fix a manufacturer's poor design.

Bruce has been in this business for a long time and is a true subject matter expert. If someone of his depth of knowledge says that something can be improved, you really, really should listen.

[hufnagel]

I don't think anyone thinks Bruce is a "snake oil salesman", but I think the tone of the announcement and phrasing used has caused a lot of people to cock an eyebrow and go "problem? what problem?" Not that there couldn't be a problem but that no one's reported the one referenced in the wild.

[Sensei]

Maybe this is related to Gray Guns findings: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Le-q6IHMGqI

Several VP9 users on a couple boards have said their guns will do this and Larry Vickers posted in one of those discussions that his pistol did this and it worried him but when it didn't manifest in live fire, he disregarded it. But it may indicate a gun set up on the very limits of its envelope for functioning. Other users have posted on the big HK board that they've sent their gun back to HK for a reset that required the full release of the trigger. Good news is that HK CS sounds incredibly responsive with fast turnarounds. Clearly its not all guns as most report a pretty good trigger and pretty good reset.

There are just not that many guns out there or that many rounds downrange yet. It took a few months and a lot of guns in 2010 before the Gen 4 G17 feces hit the fan. Then many people argue the point that some of those problems wouldn't crop up until north of 3K rounds. I had a hard time believing at first since our early 17s and 19s ran great and still do but when very knowledgeable folks - like some members of PF and others confirmed it . . . there was something wrong.

I've had very good dealings with Bruce over the years. I'm inclined to believe him when he says that a design needs improvement. He has said this before about other designs and I've never known him to be wrong. Having said that, I'll continue to shoot my VP9 and P320 from time to time to break-up the monotony that comes with being a Glock and P-Series guy. If in 2 years the VP9 and P320 are still going strong and compact versions are hitting the market, only then will I consider a platform change.

[1slow]

More than ever I like my HK45s and P30 9mm LEMs

[Savage Hands]

I don't know who here knows Bruce but he is not some sleezy snake oil salesman looking to make a buck. Bruce is much more like a shooting and mechanical engineering savant.

Bruce is the kind of guy that most us should appreciate. He is a world class shooter of a skill level rarely seen in the gunsmithing world. He is the guy that is constantly looking to make improvements to existing designs - the kind of improvements you have to be a really good shooter to appreciate. If Bruce looks at a design and says it's weak or could be improved, I am very inclined to believe him.

I have been a part of his attempts (as a beta tester and current user) to fix the horribly designed extractor that Sig foisted on the public. There are still people on SigForum that believe that Bruce is selling a solution to a non-existent problem with his improved extractor. These are people who lucked out and got a "good" extractor and/or haven't shot their safe queen enough to break it yet. As someone who's been through all kinds of crap, trying to get my guns to run, I deeply appreciate the efforts Bruce has gone to fix a manufacturer's poor design.

Bruce has been in this business for a long time and is a true subject matter expert. If someone of his depth of knowledge says that something can be improved, you really, really should listen.


I have to agree with you here, both Bruce/Grayguns and their sister company Randy/Apex have developed fixes for under engineered factory designs for years, unfortunately it's pointed at an H&K which is bringing out many skeptical die hard fans. It reminds me of the Glock owners who didn't believe the erratic ejection and BTTF issue since it didn't happen to them. Time will tell if he's right or wrong.

Full disclosure, I'm an occasional beta tester for Apex Tactical Specialties so my opinion may be considered bias. :cool:

[PPGMD]

It seems Bowie Tactical came to the same conclusion at about the same time.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=811235928897585&set=ms.c.eJwVycEJADAMA7GNSm035LL~%3BYiVPISSnJnbuiI OUOA~%3BoeVnvG6aL~_uTRCZ8~-.bps.&type=1&theater

Second see the music wire spring in the mag well. It seems to be the disconnector trigger bar spring. It just sets there. Only stuck in the frame and pinned to trigger bar the rest of the curving loop is just laying there( read it will get snagged tore out or otherwise screwed up by less than careful cleaning or some odd crap getting caught up during a malfunction requiring magazine to be removed. Again not a solid area.

[LSP972]

I don't think anyone thinks Bruce is a "snake oil salesman", but I think the tone of the announcement and phrasing used has caused a lot of people to cock an eyebrow and go "problem? what problem?" Not that there couldn't be a problem but that no one's reported the one referenced in the wild.

Indeed.

I KNOW he's not a snake oil salesman. Which is precisely why I wonder about this announcement… he usually doesn't make proclamations of this sort until he has it scoped out six ways from Sunday. By his own admission, he's still exploring the issue.

Whatever… certainly not worth stressing over.

.

[JodyH]

I've yet to hear about a single issue with that spring "in the wild", and I've shot and handled a very used and abused VP.

The "Internutz" has already 'sploded with the "news" about failing trigger springs in the VP9.
Very unprofessional of Gray and Bowie to toss their theory out as fact IMO.

[Sensei]

It seems Bowie Tactical came to the same conclusion at about the same time.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=811235928897585&set=ms.c.eJwVycEJADAMA7GNSm035LL~%3BYiVPISSnJnbuiI OUOA~%3BoeVnvG6aL~_uTRCZ8~-.bps.&type=1&theater

It's worse than that. Bowie goes on to say that the design is such that the platform should not be considered for a serious, fighting handgun:




I would consider this one of those pistols to play with but not to build a fighting gun battery on. It's a shame these companies can't manage to do better than this with all the good blue prints already in service ! Just further validates the Glock and M&P pistols as the go to pistols for any serious shooter or work.


Ouch...

[JodyH]

Unlike the theoretical VP9 spring issues, the M&P9 has a well established and documented accuracy issue and the Glock 9mm's still suffers from erratic, inconsistent ejection.
As to the P320... it's a Sig and Sig will cut corners guaranteed. Even if it comes out of the gate strong, in 6 months they'll go too cheap on some vital MIM part and the wheels will fall off.
You can quote me on that.

VP9? Don't have one, probably won't buy one because it doesn't fill any niche in my safe that needs filling.
I like the hammer on my P2000.
The wife loves her PPQ.
My 11 yr. old boy is running a M&P9 CORE because we're going to put an MRDS on it for him (MRDS are the future, he might as well start out with one).

[Mjolnir]

Maybe this is related to Gray Guns findings: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Le-q6IHMGqI

Several VP9 users on a couple boards have said their guns will do this and Larry Vickers posted in one of those discussions that his pistol did this and it worried him but when it didn't manifest in live fire, he disregarded it. But it may indicate a gun set up on the very limits of its envelope for functioning. Other users have posted on the big HK board that they've sent their gun back to HK for a reset that required the full release of the trigger. Good news is that HK CS sounds incredibly responsive with fast turnarounds. Clearly its not all guns as most report a pretty good trigger and pretty good reset.

There are just not that many guns out there or that many rounds downrange yet. It took a few months and a lot of guns in 2010 before the Gen 4 G17 feces hit the fan. Then many people argue the point that some of those problems wouldn't crop up until north of 3K rounds. I had a hard time believing at first since our early 17s and 19s ran great and still do but when very knowledgeable folks - like some members of PF and others confirmed it . . . there was something wrong.

I had one that did that and it also did that when you fired it. I put five rounds thru it and sent it back. When it returned they stated that it had an out of spec trigger bar.

That will be the very last time I ASSUME that all of anything are the same and purchase without handling. I handled four of them prior to taking another. Shame on me.

Note to self: purchase a handful of trigger return springs and a few trigger bars.


-------------------------------------
"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."

[Mjolnir]

As a Mechanical Engineer I'd love to sit with the VP9 designers and discuss in detail the merits of the design. I know I don't like overcomplexity as it impacts serviceability (not to mention potential reliability).


-------------------------------------
"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."

[Sensei]

Unlike the theoretical VP9 spring issues, the M&P9 has a well established and documented accuracy issue and the Glock 9mm's still suffers from erratic, inconsistent ejection.
As to the P320... it's a Sig and Sig will cut corners guaranteed. Even if it comes out of the gate strong, in 6 months they'll go too cheap on some vital MIM part and the wheels will fall off.
You can quote me on that.

VP9? Don't have one, probably won't buy one because it doesn't fill any niche in my safe that needs filling.
I like the hammer on my P2000.
The wife loves her PPQ.
My 11 yr. old boy is running a M&P9 CORE because we're going to put an MRDS on it for him (MRDS are the future, he might as well start out with one).

I certainly won't argue that many of the major manufacturers had a rough patch in recent years. H&K appears to have avoided the recent slump. However, the consensus seems to be that Glock, M&P, and the recent P-series Sigs are GTG.

When it comes to the VP9, it's hard for me to ignore the opinions of guys like Bruce and David. Does it mean that I'm going to sell my gun? No. But, I was already planning to give it a year or two before going all-in like I did with my Glocks and M&Ps. The recent design criticism only reinforces my decision.

[GJM]

As to the P320... it's a Sig and Sig will cut corners guaranteed. Even if it comes out of the gate strong, in 6 months they'll go too cheap on some vital MIM part and the wheels will fall off.
You can quote me on that.

How is your opinion on Sig any different than Bowie's or Gray's opinion on the VP9? I don't believe Bowie and Gray owe an oath of loyalty to HK any more than you do to Sig. I am interested in all these opinions as they give different perspectives.

Jody, for a guy who wants a pistol that shoots well, has a hammer, is a proven design, has avoided quality issues for years, and continues to improve internal parts, there is an answer. Made by the same company that makes some of the best shotguns in the world, has for many years, and is your latest addition.

[JodyH]

How is your opinion on Sig any different than Bowie's or Gray's opinion on the VP9?
Sig has an established track record of going cheap until it breaks, they've done it with every gun in their lineup.
btw: I said the same thing about the M&P and my prediction was spot on. The first M&P's were great. S&W went cheap and they had a rough patch. But S&W has a track record of fixing their mistakes that I haven't seen from the Cohen run Sig.
My experience with S&W is either adopt early or wait for Gen 3.
The VP9 "issue" is still entirely theoretical and you have to go back to early USP's to find a significant issue (broken firing pins).

[JodyH]

Jody, for a guy who wants a pistol that shoots well, has a hammer, is a proven design, has avoided quality issues for years, and continues to improve internal parts, there is an answer. Made by the same company that makes some of the best shotguns in the world, has for many years, and is your latest addition.
The Beretta is too fat through the slide for me.
Other than that a Wilson tuned 92 compact DAO would definitely be high on my want list.

[JodyH]

When it comes to the VP9, it's hard for me to ignore the opinions of guys like Bruce and David.
I'm not ignoring their opinions at all.
I'm just saying it was unprofessional of them to phrase their opinions as facts when up to now there's been no evidence to support that opinion.

[joshs]

I don't know who here knows Bruce but he is not some sleezy snake oil salesman looking to make a buck. Bruce is much more like a shooting and mechanical engineering savant.

Bruce is the kind of guy that most us should appreciate. He is a world class shooter of a skill level rarely seen in the gunsmithing world. He is the guy that is constantly looking to make improvements to existing designs - the kind of improvements you have to be a really good shooter to appreciate. If Bruce looks at a design and says it's weak or could be improved, I am very inclined to believe him.

I have been a part of his attempts (as a beta tester and current user) to fix the horribly designed extractor that Sig foisted on the public. There are still people on SigForum that believe that Bruce is selling a solution to a non-existent problem with his improved extractor. These are people who lucked out and got a "good" extractor and/or haven't shot their safe queen enough to break it yet. As someone who's been through all kinds of crap, trying to get my guns to run, I deeply appreciate the efforts Bruce has gone to fix a manufacturer's poor design.

Bruce has been in this business for a long time and is a true subject matter expert. If someone of his depth of knowledge says that something can be improved, you really, really should listen.

Didn't he also claim that the SRT was unsafe when it first came out because the FPB is disabled if the trigger isn't fully released?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk 2

[LittleLebowski]

I just went back through my comments in this thread. They were not accusations, character assassination, whatever by me upon Bruce Gray. I don't know anything about the guy at all (never owned a Sig nor an HK), I was simply discussing his new HK part offering and service. A couple of guys whom I respect vouched for Gray (GJM and John Hearne) and that means a lot. However, the discussion still remains valid to me as we are still talking about a theoretical problem at this point. Who knows, maybe Gray has preemptively found the problem with the VP9? At any rate, I don't see anything wrong with this discussion.

[GJM]

The Beretta is too fat through the slide for me.

USP C and Beretta 92 slide comparison.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/imagejpg1_zps90b22a2b.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/imagejpg1_zps90b22a2b.jpg.html)

[JodyH]

USP C and Beretta 92 slide comparison.

I don't own USPc's either.
Slides too fat.

[Sensei]

While reading through Bruce's comments, I noticed he mentioned that his HK gunsmith, Rick Holm, has experienced problems related to the design. I posted a message on Sigform to clarify the extent of this problem. I'll let you know if he replies.

[GJM]

I don't own USPc's either.
Slides too fat.

VP9 and Beretta 92:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/imagejpg1_zps8f15be7a.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/imagejpg1_zps8f15be7a.jpg.html)

[JHC]

I'm not ignoring their opinions at all.
I'm just saying it was unprofessional of them to phrase their opinions as facts when up to now there's been no evidence to support that opinion.

But Gray flat out said they've seen it in a gun in their own hands. You will have to see one exhibit it in your own hands presumably and your sample of one used and abused VP9 will be the rule.

[JHC]

I had one that did that and it also did that when you fired it. I put five rounds thru it and sent it back. When it returned they stated that it had an out of spec trigger bar.

That will be the very last time I ASSUME that all of anything are the same and purchase without handling. I handled four of them prior to taking another. Shame on me.

Note to self: purchase a handful of trigger return springs and a few trigger bars.



-------------------------------------
"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."


Perhaps the anchoring and function of the S spring that Bowie and Gray are keying on is very unforgiving of moderately out of spec parts surrounding it.

[Mjolnir]

Perhaps the anchoring and function of the S spring that Bowie and Gray are keying on is very unforgiving of moderately out of spec parts surrounding it.

That's what I'm thinking.

I just looked inside of mine and the part sliding into a "pocket" in the frame does not appear to be an issue.

How the spring is attached TO the trigger bar is a bit of a mystery. I admittedly did not shine a light onto to it but it has protrusions on both sides of the bar.

As for the spring getting easily displaced - I do not buy that. I guess one could easily thrust something into the frame and dislodge it but that would not be "normal" at all and I don't see a magazine insert or withdrawal catching it.

Theoretically speaking I'd prefer another method of operation. However, looking at the track record of both Sig and S&W proponents of both manufacturers are forgiven for their concern for they are well-versed with Quality concerns.

Kevin


-------------------------------------
"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."

[Mjolnir]

This is what I have found and if true I would be interested in their bearing design. If it's more robust I'd consider it. Making the trigger lighter makes little sense to me, though.

Bruce described the issue as follows:



"The trigger bar spring is a long 3-stranded affair that's bent into a S-curve. It's specific shape is critical to function. The bottom rear end rests in a hole in the frame, while the upper forward end is supposed to sit in a blind hole in a small, round plastic bearing that connects the spring to the trigger bar. The spring relies entirely on it's critical shape to stay put in that tiny bearing's shallow hole, and to stay out of the way of the magazine in the mag well mortise.

I've heard tell of a couple instances where the spring jumped out of the bearing, which Rick also experienced with the VP9 here. If that happens, the party's over for trigger reset function."


-------------------------------------
"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."

[LittleLebowski]

Say there is a problem? What are the odds on HK actually fixing it?

[Mjolnir]

They would.

Contracts depend upon it.


-------------------------------------
"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."

[JodyH]

Wake me up when the house is actually on fire.

[Mjolnir]

Why would you wait, JodyH?

As an engineer I seek weak spots/points in a design and then seek elegant (SIMPLE where possible) upgrades to move the weak link to something easily serviced.

To each their own.

I really like the pistol and have 3500 rounds of hard use thru it. I wish I had waited to send the other one back as I'd love to tinker with them side by side to see if the bearing was the root cause.

Hopefully, there will be no "next time" but I'm curious.


-------------------------------------
"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."

[gtmtnbiker98]

Wake me up when the house is actually on fire.LOL.

[PPGMD]

Sig has an established track record of going cheap until it breaks, they've done it with every gun in their lineup.

No, no they haven't. I've never heard about any widespread issues with the Sig Pro. And most of the P250s issues were design oriented.

Sig went cheap with the classic P series because they had to. They aren't a 1911 or a luxury brand which can ask for $2,000+ for a pistol. They were a metal framed service pistol competing in a polymer framed world, it is the same issue S&W had. Thus they had to figure out a way to make the pistol cheaper to compete. They had some teething issues with parts that shouldn't have ever been made with MIM, redesigns to make it MIM tolerate, and finally better quality MIM processes (some new metal for MIM that is way stronger than old MIM metals). And for the most parts the issues are fixed.

But since the P320 is designed for the ground up for MIM, and other cheap processes. It can compete on an even playing field against other polymer striker pistols.


The VP9 "issue" is still entirely theoretical and you have to go back to early USP's to find a significant issue (broken firing pins).

And the USP is the last time Hk has brought out a new pistol design. The VP9 is the first really new pistol design for Hk since the USP. People assumed Hk was immune to issues because they've basically been using the same pistol design for the last decade.

Honestly I expected the VP9 might have issues, as I expect the P320 might have some issues. These issues may be a design issue, or they might simply be temporary manufacturing issues. In either case likely both companies will figure them out. To be honest the only thing that surprises me are people (not aimed at you Jody) that I've otherwise expected to see this truth go into fan boy territory over the VP9.

[Sensei]

This was my message to Bruce and his reply:



Bruce, what was the extent to which Rick had problems with the trigger bar spring? Did it happen only once? Was is during live fire? If so, what was the result? How many rounds were through the gun.

I ask because many people on other forums are calling this a theoretical shortcoming that is not reported in the wild. FWIW, David Bowie is echoing your concerns.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'll verify the exact circumstances with Rick. Two others have contacted me with this issue; one had it happen to his gun while shooting, and the other was second-hand and less certain.

However theoretical, this design is questionable yet easily enough corrected (by unitizing the spring and bearing) to prevent any possibility of failure.

-Bruce

[John Hearne]

Didn't he also claim that the SRT was unsafe when it first came out because the FPB is disabled if the trigger isn't fully released?

IIRC, Bruce and several other Sig gunsmiths questioned the way the SRT deactivated the firing pin lock until the trigger was released. The other concern was the design was very susceptible to sufficient engagement between the hammer and sear. Following and full-auto were real possibilities if this wasn't address properly. IIRC, Sig did fix this which is why the SA trigger in SRT guns always seems a bit "off" unless it's cleaned up. IIRC, TODDG himself mentioned the concerns with possible following in the initial SRT design.

[PPGMD]

IIRC, Bruce and several other Sig gunsmiths questioned the way the SRT deactivated the firing pin lock until the trigger was released. The other concern was the design was very susceptible to sufficient engagement between the hammer and sear. Following and full-auto were real possibilities if this wasn't address properly. IIRC, Sig did fix this which is why the SA trigger in SRT guns always seems a bit "off" unless it's cleaned up. IIRC, TODDG himself mentioned the concerns with possible following in the initial SRT design.

IIRC SRT was developed to compete for a CHP contract against the 4006. And that the early editions had issues with doubling due to sear engagement, including the gun sent for the CHP pistol trails. So Bruce's concern is about issues that the SRT did genuinely have.

[Mjolnir]

This is awesome.

Only in America.

I kinda doubt others in other nations run their firearms hard enough to find weaknesses in the design like we have this far here in the USA.

I think this is a very good thing.

Just had to express that here.

Please carry on.


-------------------------------------
"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."

[Kyle Reese]

As a VP9 is in my future, I'm following this with great interest.

[Sensei]

So, who is willing to loan their gun to Bill Rhiehl for him to give it a look-see and post his findings?

[LittleLebowski]

Bill is a very busy man, but if he wants to look at a VP9 I'll gladly send him one.

*like*

[Comedian]

So 4 years of development from HK for the VP9 and now this? Disappointing. Bruce Gray said that he has more confidence in the Sig P320, based on close inspection of the 320 and the VP9.

[John Hearne]

I was just thinking that H&K just loves to complicate things. They added a firing pin lock safety to the M-16 when they released the 416. It works, I haven't heard of problems with it - but WHY?

[joshs]

I was just thinking that H&K just loves to complicate things. They added a firing pin lock safety to the M-16 when they released the 416. It works, I haven't heard of problems with it - but WHY?

Because slam fires are not fun.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk 2

[John Hearne]

Because slam fires are not fun.

Yeah, maybe. But when Colt decided to address this potential issue in their SMG, they added a single spring to push the firing pin back. One spring, 1 spring, uno springo. Not sure how many parts H&K added but it was more than one.

[Wayne Dobbs]

It's not a VP9, but an M16/M4/AR properly set up to spec won't slam fire. There were a very few slam fires documented in the early/mid 1960's that involved somebody single loading rounds into the chamber and then letting the BCG slam forward. The old heavy headed firing pin would occasionally have enough energy to initiate the primer. The firing pin went through three versions before the current lightened FP was adopted. Interestingly enough, a spring loaded FP was prototyped and then rejected in favor of what we have today.

It's been my experience that what is reported today as a "slam fire" is a safety violation of the shooter having finger on the trigger during a loading operation.

[Mjolnir]

If you don't like their engineering don't buy their products. Period.

I respect Bruce Gray and I respect my own engineering assessment. While I've not delved into the parts making business I sure as hell can provide a detailed engineering assessment of things (DFMEA, 8-Ds, etc.).

I also trust the gnomes at HK know a thing or two about pistol and rifle-making even if I cannot grasp all that they do because my life does not revolve around dropping out of the air or crawling out of the sea and mud to go kill people and exfiltrate from a hostile environment.

I rather like their approach, in general, and while I may have gone another way we can be assured it's been tested thoroughly and if all parts are to spec and within tolerance it should be fine. If Bruce has come up with a more robust IDEA then by all means let's see it - and then let's see the test results. If it works as he believes then I'd be highly interested but until that time lets not behave as of we are fanboys on the "other website".

Go shoot.


-------------------------------------
"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."

[Sensei]

So 4 years of development from HK for the VP9 and now this? Disappointing. Bruce Gray said that he has more confidence in the Sig P320, based on close inspection of the 320 and the VP9.

At this point it is too early to throw the baby out with the bath water. Even on this forum I'm only seeing reported round counts in the 2-5K range (mine has less than 1000). Let's give it a year and enough people will be in the five figure range so that we have plenty of data points. If there are problems, then perhaps Bruce's analysis and fix may be the way to go.

[BWT]

They came out with the DCAEK for M&P's; which I prefer. They came out with the extractor for Glocks; I've never acquired. What makes the H&K safe?

He's had a trigger enhancement that's been often recommended as the best package for triggers.

Thank goodness these aren't 1911's that need tuning out of the box to run, right? :cool:

Disclaimer: I received my second Glock pistol last week. The above was sarcasm; but it does strike me as funny.

[Savage Hands]

They came out with the DCAEK for M&P's; which I prefer. They came out with the extractor for Glocks; I've never acquired. What makes the H&K safe?

He's had a trigger enhancement that's been often recommended as the best package for triggers.

Thank goodness these aren't 1911's that need tuning out of the box to run, right? :cool:

Disclaimer: I received my second Glock pistol last week. The above was sarcasm; but it does strike me as funny.


You're mixing up Grayguns and its sister company Apex Tactical Specialties :)

[JHC]

If you don't like their engineering don't buy their products. Period.

I respect Bruce Gray and I respect my own engineering assessment. While I've not delved into the parts making business I sure as hell can provide a detailed engineering assessment of things (DFMEA, 8-Ds, etc.).

I also trust the gnomes at HK know a thing or two about pistol and rifle-making even if I cannot grasp all that they do because my life does not revolve around dropping out of the air or crawling out of the sea and mud to go kill people and exfiltrate from a hostile environment.

I rather like their approach, in general, and while I may have gone another way we can be assured it's been tested thoroughly and if all parts are to spec and within tolerance it should be fine. If Bruce has come up with a more robust IDEA then by all means let's see it - and then let's see the test results. If it works as he believes then I'd be highly interested but until that time lets not behave as of we are fanboys on the "other website".

Go shoot.


-------------------------------------
"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."

I think that's pretty solid. I don't think there's any doubt they can build a great pistol and this appears to be one. The question is going to be can they build tens of thousands of them competing at a much lower price point and uphold the expected HK brand's level of QC etc. During the intro it was widely assumed they could because they're HK. Time will tell.
Seems like the reset and trigger quality ought to be discoverable in the showroom before plunking down the dinero.

But anyone who's just burning it down with their VP9 should rock on. If the Gen 4 shoals that Glock ran up on didn't affect any of ours (it didn't) we weren't selling off any of them but just kept shooting.

[David S.]

Bruce's HK tech responds. (http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/430601935/m/9510067063?r=2620099063#2620099063)


Rick here, posting on Bruce's account-

I do not want to preempt Bruce's comparison post between the VP9 and the P320, but there are some things I'd like to share -from my perspective- as I am seeing things kind of spinning out of kilter here.

Many of you I'm sure, like me, can think back to our younger selves and fondly remember the first time we made out with a girl; the first time we drove a stick shift; the first day of our first job... we mostly understood what we were there to accomplish, and we were vaguely familiar with the elements we were dealing with, but the apparent diabolical complexity had us fumbling a bit until the second or third time we had a go at it. Being overly eager and excited may have even added to the level of difficulty at first. But inevitably thank goodness- we mastered these things and realized that even tho these things seemed overly complex when they were brand new to us, they were actually marvelously simple. I'm sure you've guessed where I'm going with this...

The VP9- like many other pistols that we may detail strip for the first time- was new, different, and seemingly unreasonably complex upon initial inspection. I freely admit that I am very used to seeing the things that I see inside the typical pistols I work on every day, and might easily attribute complexity to something that was just plain different than what I'm used to. I think we can all relate to that. With that in mind, Bruce did hear me chortling and whistling, and maybe even cursing a few times on that first day from across the shop.

However, after a few more detail strips and re-assemblies, I realized that what I initially mistook for complexity was actually unfamiliarity, and I was able to fully appreciate how elegant and effective the VP9's design really is.

For instance: the drop safety on this pistol is wickedly simple and very unique. Rather than a plunger running up and down in a hole in the slide that engages a cutout in the side of the firing pin like most pistols nowadays, it has a lateral pivoting block that directly engages and stops the forward travel of the firing pin above the sear engagement surface. Not only is this a very bombproof way of getting that job done, but because the trigger bar engages and clearances the drop safety before it meets the sear release catch, *and the pistol has a traditional style disconnect*, we have the uninhibited ability to delete over-travel without shutting the whole system down (unlike other pistols which shall remain nameless :-0 ).

The trigger bar spring was mentioned earlier, and I will say that I was surprised to find what appeared to be a weak link in the system initially. Bruce already explained how this spring works in an earlier post so I wont go into the weeds too far with that, but I do want to get into the perceived problem. Basically, one end of the braided s-curved spring seats into a cut-out in the frame adjacent to the mag body, and the other end connects with a polymer bearing that articulates in a hole along the bottom edge of the trigger bar. This spring provides slight secondary tension to the trigger rebound, but its main purpose is to push the trigger bar upward during re-connect. The spring end is sealed into a blind hole in the polymer bearing, and the "problem" occurs when the factory connection that retains the spring gives out, and the spring is able to pop free of the bearing.

**It is my opinion that this connection should NEVER experience enough separating pressure during regular use to pop free, and I believe that the "problem" is encouraged to occur when an inexperienced individual is trying to remove or install the spring and pulls the spring away from the polymer bearing which breaks the factory connection. When you then try to install and run the part after that, the flexing and articulating of the spring during load works the spring free from the blind hole and, pop goes the weasel. I admit that this problem occurred for me ONE time, and it was after I had unintentionally popped the bearing off the spring during an early detail strip while still learning the system. I would ask that anyone reading this who has experienced this failure, please post in this thread and mark whether the pistol has ever been detailed stripped. I'm willing to bet dollars to doughnuts that any of the few failures that may have ever occurred, happened after that spring was removed.**

Ever ready to meet a challenge head on, I came up with a typical eager beaver solution: lets make a whole new spring and metal bearing, and braze or solder the connection! So Bruce expertly hand crafted an amazing duplicate of the triple strand braided spring, and I set about carving a minuscule bearing from a brass rod on the lathe. We soldered the connection, and in less than an hour from starting had installed the new spring- and bobs ur uncle- it worked perfectly. As I moved on to other contemplation's of the trigger system tho, I was bothered by the idea that we couldn't just fix the existing parts. Suddenly, like a 2x4 in the face, I realized that I could simply apply a small dab of quality epoxy to the original spring and bearing seat. Duh. So I did, and let it cure overnight...guess what? "Problem" 100% solved. Ive tested the heck out of that bad boy and: cue the Macho Man Randy Savage voice --"it ain't goin' nowhere!"

*Edit to add: Just to clarify, removing the spring from the gun is not what causes the problem. It can be removed and re-installed from the trigger bar and not have any issue. --The issue can be precipitated when the small poly bearing is removed from the braided spring end, and then simply plugged back in to the blind hole in the bearing with no adhesive.-- I believe that if this factory connection is not disturbed, the issue will never arise. When I had my failure, it was immediately after I had unintentionally pulled the bearing off the spring during a detail strip. Since applying the epoxy fix it has been solid as a rock with no issues through plenty of mags and dry firing, just like it was before I pulled those two pieces apart.*

The two main issues I have heard around the water cooler about the VP9 is the complexity of the design, and the trigger bar spring. I'm here to tell you that these are non-issues in my opinion. This HK stands upon the precipice of greatness, with wicked accuracy, fantastic ergos, cutting edge features, and a Grayguns worked trigger that inspires crystal clear visions of a shirtless Charlton Heston wielding a lightening bolt in a flying chariot drawn by fire breathing dragons heading directly into enemy lines.

At the shop earlier today, I noticed that Lyle was eyeballing me every time he heard dry fire and reset drills over at my bench, finally he said: "if you play with it too much you'll go blind Rick." With my vision blurring, it's getting harder and harder to type. Thanks for letting me interject here.

Carry on. -Rick

[Mjolnir]

Good to hear and (kinda) like I expected.

I'll have to trudge down that road and see what the polymer bearing:spring interface is all about.


-------------------------------------
"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."

[LittleLebowski]

Bruce's HK tech responds. (http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/430601935/m/9510067063?r=2620099063#2620099063)

Doesn't sound that bad at all.

[Mjolnir]

Doesn't sound that bad at all.

Agreed.

I do like brazing concept, though.


-------------------------------------
"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."

[JohnN]

So much about....apparently nothing.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[Sensei]

Rick's latest message puts to rest for me the issues of reliability and durability. However, I'm still left wondering how serviceable the platform is compared to the competition. It sounds like you can't detail strip this pistol without risking problems with this spring unless you replace it with some form of adhesive. This sounds a little off as I'm accustomed to being able to detail strip my USPs, Glocks, M&Ps, and P-series guns.

[JodyH]

So... the house wasn't on fire?
Imagine that.

[JodyH]

It sounds like you can't detail strip this pistol without risking problems with this spring unless you replace it with some form of adhesive.
No, it sounds as if you shouldn't try to take apart things that aren't designed to be taken apart.
Like removing the polymer cap from the S spring.
If all you do is remove the spring, you're fine.

[LittleLebowski]

So... the house wasn't on fire?
Imagine that.

I don't think it was on fire.

[tomr]

Reminds me of my first attempts at dovetailing. I muttered, swore, and threw the failed (practice) piece across the room. Someone, who overheard, never forgave me, though five years later it never happened again and I did kinda get comfortable with the joint.

[Mjolnir]

No, it sounds as if you shouldn't try to take apart things that aren't designed to be taken apart.
Like removing the polymer cap from the S spring.
If all you do is remove the spring, you're fine.

From looking at the parts you're correct. The Mk23 is also very similar in this regard, IIRC.

No worries. Press on.


-------------------------------------
"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."

[Trukinjp13]

Sooo in the end the vp9 is solid and haters gonna hate. I could give two kittens if the h&k is complex. So what what if the new z06 is more complex then my ol ladys cruze? Still both reliable and get the job done. But the vette just looks a lot sexier and would whip my cars arse when it comes to performance. Different tools different jobs. I thunk the hk is awesome, I love the trigger and the way it sits in your hands. My fns is lacking in the comfort department big time compared to the vp9. And I may be one of the few but definitely prefer the vp9 trigger. I still believe h&k has made the best striker fired pistol and until a REAL WORLD problem Develops I do not see that changing. I wish the would make a safety model though. Looks like it is in the chassis that that is a possibility though.

[orionz06]

Interesting to read Bruce's comments compared to others out there. I had been leaning towards thinking HK wouldn't have installed a Swiss watch in the frame, glad to see that Bruce thinks it elegant. Elegant can be more complex but more complex doesn't need to be bad.

[Dagga Boy]

No, it sounds as if you shouldn't try to take apart things that aren't designed to be taken apart.
Like removing the polymer cap from the S spring.
If all you do is remove the spring, you're fine.

I shouldn't even comment, but this surprised me. I have always been a supporter of Gray Guns and have wrote positive reviews of their work, so I am far from a hater. I am surprised that this stuff was released initially based on the "experimental" take down without mention of any sort of factory armorers courses or any contact with HK themselves. I am not a person who should be around tools, yet I have been able to get through numerous armorers schools....including the MP-5 Burst group school (now that is a Swiss watch). I would never base anything on how easy things are to "wing it" on. The only gun I have found to be easy to work on is the Glock.....it is also the gun I have seen more un-qualified people jack up because they can watch a YouTube video and be a Glock smith. It sounds like something not designed to get taken apart got taken apart. Had one of our guys do this with a Glock....didn't know about the firing pin channel sleeve when he took it apart and refinished it.....without being a Glock armorer. Luckily, he just shot himself with it when the firing pin channel liner melted in the oven and wasn't there when it was re-assembled. Many of these guns need some specialized tools or techniques to work on. Look how many of us have used words we didn't know were in our vocabulary based on the HK Trigger return spring installs.......yet Jody H has figured out how to do it in minutes. I bought a specialized tool and it is now fairly straight forward. I am aware of a very well known gunsmith that has done damage to guns with his improper install of this part, and they had to go back to HK to be "fixed". I am not aware of that guy going to any HK factory schools to work on that gun. Factory schools teach us many of the little things as far as techniques and some of the idiosyncrasies of each system...including the Glock. I would say doing an HK burst group without the specialty tool and proper training is a recipe for disaster that at least one team figured out the hard way.
Personally, for the role intended by the VP-9 as a L/E Service Pistol, the Armorers school needs to essentially be how to replace high wear parts, trouble shooting, and the key....knowing when it should go back to the factory.
Like many, I have zero interested in a light trigger with little or no take up for a duty/self defense street gun. Others will....great, hope it works out.
On a positive VP9 note-I had mine out at an L/E shoot last week populated by a bunch of old serious PPC shooters....it is funny that they didn't have any issues stacking rounds on top of each other with the VP9 with no previous time on the gun, and mine is one of the ones that has a trigger that is not on the "great side", but seems to shoot little holes when the operator does their job. Also, no malfunctions to date with factory and re-manufactured ammunition from one end of the spectrum to the other.

[Sensei]

I'm curious if anyone has actually detailed stripped their gun? If so, was it easy to remove the spring without disrupting the bearing?

I'll freely admit that I do not have the balls to detail strip my VP9 - yet. I say that being fairly comfortable tearing apart a P-series Sig, Glock, or M&P. Bruce and Randy have made excellent videos that go through the detailed disassembly of the P-series Sig and M&P, and I made it to a Glock armorers course many moons ago. Granted, I felt like Michael J. Fox in Doc Hollywood the first time I reassembled my M&P with an Apex DCAEK and noticed the bag with an extra sear spring ;). It took a phone call to Randy for me to figure out that the extra spring was for people with the old sear housing. Still, I do like to tinker and learn about the internals of my weapons. Thus, I would be all over a OpSpec produced DVD that goes through disassembly of the Hk USP family and VP9 - hint, hint.

[JHC]

I'm curious if anyone has actually detailed stripped their gun? If so, was it easy to remove the spring without disrupting the bearing?

I'll freely admit that I do not have the balls to detail strip my VP9 - yet. I say that being fairly comfortable tearing apart a P-series Sig, Glock, or M&P. Bruce and Randy have made excellent videos that go through the detailed disassembly of the P-series Sig and M&P. Granted, I felt like Michael J. Fox in Doc Hollywood the first time I reassembled my M&P with an Apex DCAEK and noticed the bag with an extra sear spring ;). It took a phone call to Randy for me to figure out that the extra spring was for people with the old sear housing. Still, I do like to tinker and learn about the internals of my weapons. Thus, I would be all over a OpSpec produced DVD that goes through disassembly of the Hk USP family and VP9 - hint, hint.

Sounds like the majority of shooters should not detail strip.

[JHC]

Interesting to read Bruce's comments compared to others out there. I had been leaning towards thinking HK wouldn't have installed a Swiss watch in the frame, glad to see that Bruce thinks it elegant. Elegant can be more complex but more complex doesn't need to be bad.

Those were Rick's comments posting on Bruce's Sigforum account. Rick didn't say that Bruce's characterization was wrong insofar as more complexity than needed for the task. Just that Rick, the HK specialist figured out how not to F up the gun in detail strip.

[Comedian]

Heavy sigh of relief ....

[Sensei]

Sounds like the majority of shooters should not detail strip.

That is what I'm taking from this conversation. However, I'd hoped that someone more familiar with the platform or even an Hk armorer (are their even VP9 armorers in the wild yet) could chime in about the prospect of us peasants being able to perform maintenance beyond replacing the recoil spring assembly and magazine springs. ;)

[JHC]

Heavy sigh of relief ....

If I may be so crude, look at it as a Gen 4 9mm but with a better trigger for many reviewers. All of ours incl early 2010 editions have run and run great (nine in total). LL, Nyeti and Psalm dude's crappy ones were dismaying about QC but didn't affect my affection for our stellar copies. If all the parts are in spec it's an fine pistol. Mjolnir got a bad one (VP9).

[Mjolnir]

If I may be so crude, look at it as a Gen 4 9mm but with a better trigger for many reviewers. All of ours incl early 2010 editions have run and run great (nine in total). LL, Nyeti and Psalm dude's crappy ones were dismaying about QC but didn't affect my affection for our stellar copies. If all the parts are in spec it's an fine pistol. Mjolnir got a bad one (VP9).

Correct, JHC. I drew one with a pox on it. But after spending a week in Columbus, GA she's fine. I wish I had waited to send it back and had read this thread as I would have pulled it and another one apart and compared the internals with photos and comments.

All who have them should just be wise and stock a few trigger return springs in your spares.


-------------------------------------
"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."

[LSP972]

Well, this thread certainly turned interesting… proving that even some things as solid, and with as good a reputation as HK has, can fall victim to drama.

Until a few hours ago, I had only had my hands on a VP9 for about five minutes. Today the LGS had one in the case, so I spent a good half-hour with it. I was about ready to take it (against my better judgement, as it really seems to me like nothing more than a P30 with a different trigger action… and we have three P30s…), when I noticed a 9mm P2000 V1 LEM tucked back in the corner, for only $150 more. Sold American; the bout of new-gun-itis is assuaged, and I saved myself from buying something I really didn't want.

That said… I get why the VP9 is generating so much interest; I really do. And I agree that said interest is well-deserved. I suspect that I have been an HK afficianado for longer- and currently own more HK pistols- than most on this board who profess interest in the VP9. The simple truth is, striker-fired guns are not my favorite. I understand how to work a LEM trigger, and while it certainly has its drawbacks I feel it is the best "street trigger" I've run across in over 35 years of carrying professionally, training others, investigating shootings and gunfights, etc. I understand that opinion is not universally held. And that's fine.

To me, the VP9 is just the ticket for those legions of folks who don't "get" the LEM, or don't like it. Because, let's face it… the HK DA/SA (or TDA, as I believe it is referred to here) trigger ain't the greatest in the world. Okay… it sucks big-time. Truth hurts, but there it is.

The VP9 is, apparently, bringing loads of new people into the HK arena, and that certainly is a good thing.

But somehow, I don't see the majority of those folks coughing up $300+ for a "trigger job" on their new HK…

.

[Dagga Boy]

LSP972, I sure wish I had "found" the P2000 V1 LEM years ago. I am super happy with mine. Even with investing heavily with the VP9 as a trainer, I have not gotten rid of any of my LEM guns. I am still carrying my P2000SK as both a BUG to the VP9 and my "walking the dog" and "when I don't need a gun" gun. I am a huge proponent of the LEM as a true "Law Enforcement" trigger for all the same reasons and similar long term observations. With that said, convincing LE of why that LEM is good for what the realities are in L/E use of force scenarios falls into my time honored favorite place.....beating my head against the wall. I am actually going to be loaning Wayne a P30 with the TLG LEM, just so we can both stay current on them as well as the VP9.
I do think the VP9 is the best of the striker fired guns, but that is simply an opinion, and I am fine with others having different ideas.

[JodyH]

I am fine with others having different ideas.
Crazy talk.

[Sensei]

That said… I get why the VP9 is generating so much interest; I really do. And I agree that said interest is well-deserved. I suspect that I have been an HK afficianado for longer- and currently own more HK pistols- than most on this board who profess interest in the VP9. The simple truth is, striker-fired guns are not my favorite. I understand how to work a LEM trigger, and while it certainly has its drawbacks I feel it is the best "street trigger" I've run across in over 35 years of carrying professionally, training others, investigating shootings and gunfights, etc. I understand that opinion is not universally held. And that's fine.

To me, the VP9 is just the ticket for those legions of folks who don't "get" the LEM, or don't like it. Because, let's face it… the HK DA/SA (or TDA, as I believe it is referred to here) trigger ain't the greatest in the world. Okay… it sucks big-time. Truth hurts, but there it is.

But somehow, I don't see the majority of those folks coughing up $300+ for a "trigger job" on their new HK…

Many of us did not go the LEM route because it is a trigger that is rather unforgiving to those who must switch between platforms. For example, there was a brief period where I was issued a M9 and a Glock by different government entities. Trying to train on a 3rd trigger that is nothing like the other 2 would have been unsafe for me. There are other people in a similar situations who are issued non-LEM guns and don't have the time, energy, or money to dedicate to multiple trigger systems. However, the trigger of the VP9 is close enough to other striker platforms that people could train on a VP9 if they were issued a Glock or M&P with minimal degradation in performance.

When it comes to a $300 trigger job for the VP9, I might have considered it IF time had shown Bruce's concerns to be correct. However, now that Rick has chimed in a said that the trigger seems solid as long as amateurs don't muck with it, I have a hard time justifying the expense when my own VP9's trigger is about the best striker-fired that I've felt AND said modification would move the trigger characteristic to the edge of my safety envelope (4.5 lbs, reduced uptake, etc.).

[LSP972]

LSP972, I sure wish I had "found" the P2000 V1 LEM years ago.

Actually, I'm "re-discovering" it. When I first weaned the wife from Glocks and onto HK, the P2000 LEM in 9mm was her HK of choice. We had four of them at one time. Then, thanks to Tom Givens and his off-hand crack regarding ".380 Long Rifle" in a class we took with him, she decided she needed to upgrade to .40 S&W. We still have that pair of LEM P2000 pistols (they serve as "car guns"), but the 9mm examples all went by the wayside over time. I bought this one today as much to prevent myself from buying the VP9 as anything.:D

Again, I have nothing against the VP9, I'm glad its out there, and I hold no doubts that it will be successful. It simply is not my cup of tea.

.

[LSP972]

Many of us did not go the LEM route because it is a trigger that is rather unforgiving to those who must switch between platforms. For example, there was a brief period where I was issued a M9 and a Glock by different government entities.

I was shaking my head until I got to the M9 part. Okay, I hear you on that. I have bounced back and forth between the LEM and Glocks with no issues; then, several months ago, I bought a P229-1 SRT on a whim. Holy cow… despite having ten+ years on the Sig P-series "platform", it was over 15 years ago. In truth, it was the rearward slide lock lever that was giving me more trouble than the trigger, but still…

No doubt, the LEM is not for everybody. With the possible exception of the trough, the VP9 SHOULD be easy for anyone to adapt to. The trough on the HK45 didn't bother me. It bothers the hell out of me on the P30, to the point that I stripped mine down and ground that puppy away. I haven't shot the VP9 yet, so no clue if it will bother me there.

On the flip side, my bride shoots a pair of P30 pistols in .40 S&W, and trough doesn't bother her in the slightest.

You just never know…

.

[Dagga Boy]

I found that you simply get used to the trough in the trigger after a short time. As an LEO, I was actually pretty good about carrying something consistent on triggers. I would agree that the LEM is sort of like the P7, in that it doesn't work well with a whole bunch of platforms. I found that I didn't start shooting well with the LEM until I started to really carry one exclusively and a good period of time on the system.

[Sensei]

I can appreciate that some people got a crap trigger on their VP9. However, I just spent the last 10 min weighing the pull with a Timney gauge - average pull is right at 5.3 lbs. All of the other unmeasurables that comprise a trigger (reset, pre-travel, over-travel, etc.) are no worse and probably better than any of my Glocks and M&Ps. Thus, tell my why I "need" this trigger modification.

Don't get me wrong, Bruce does some outstanding work. I have 2 Sigs that have his reduced reset carry package and would have sent all of my Sigs had the SRT not become commercially available. I have 4 other Sigs with his PI triggers (the factory short trigger gives me a blood blister within 50 rounds). All of these mods are big improvements over the factory standard trigger. Thus, I've become a big fan of GGI over the past decade. However, I'm also practical in that I have no desire to change a trigger that is already a noticeable improvement over all of the competition with the possible exception of the PPQ.

[LSP972]

I found that you simply get used to the trough in the trigger after a short time.

Not me. And I gave it the old college try. Then again, a stock Glock trigger guard rubs a sore spot on my trigger finger after 100 rounds or so, as well. I have relieved the inside bottom area of the trigger guard on all my Glocks with the dreaded Dremel to alleviate that.

Yeah, its funny how, after you retire, you become less anal about certain things.

.

[Bruce Gray]

Gentlemen, I am grateful for the opportunity to directly address the VP9, respond to your questions and comments, and clarify a few things.

Yes, it is true and my initial impression of the VP9's mechanics was not entirely positive. I saw some truly unusual mechanical gizmos in there that seemed a bit tenuous and needlessly complex to my eye. I hereby acknowledge that some of my initial impressions were due to the simple newness of the thing, as some folks here have suggested. I agree. I should not have jumped the gun, so to speak, in making what were certainly seen as rash and potentially even biased criticisms. That is very unlike me, and I hope I can be forgiven for it.

That said, the issue with the trigger bar spring bearing that some folks suggested is not an issue, is indeed an issue for some folks. Without question, improper handling of the spring unit during disassembly or reassembly can separate the bearing and cause the potential for a failure. OI have had two reports of such issues besides the problem we experienced with the pistol Rick wrote about as referenced in this thread. One was of a pistol bought second hand in which the bearing and spring separated, and the other was of a pistol that the owner detail stripped ostensibly while assessing it for duty use. One pistol was returned for service. I don't know the disposition of the other pistol.

This induced me to condemn the spring and bearing arrangement as less than optimal at best. I may have used sharper words. From an engineering serviceability standpoints, this strange little bearing is a liability in my opinion. Nothing I have seen thus far alters that view. I deeply respect Rick and his opinion of the VP9, and we each can articulate our reasoned opinions.

In many other respects, I have come around to a more enlightened view of this pistol via Ricks's excellent work on this platform. He has made specialized tools to simplify disassembly. He has devised very certain techniques to improve the action's smoothness and reliability. He's now able to bring consistency to these pistols, whereas as some of you here have observed, they tend to vary gun to gun quite a bit in trigger feel. If I may say with great pride and obvious bias, Rick has these things pretty much knocked, and he's brought me along.

For the record, Rick's focus is not on trigger pull reduction for duty / carry VP9's. It's not necessary nor wise to go appreciably below the 5.5 average weight as issued by HK. I would prefer 6.5 pounds for general duty issue in this platform. We do have a number of competitors who want to run the VP9, and his initial work probed the limits a bit with this application in mind. His duty work is centred upon cleaning up the characteristic drag and stalling felt in the typical VP9 trigger takeup, attenuating gross overtravel, and assuring improved firing pin safety lock integrity and function.

BY the same token, Rick was bitterly critical of the new SIG P320 at first blush. His comment was, "It's full of parts from an old VCR player." To be honest, I kind of thought the same thing at first. Since I'm proud to be able to state that our shop happens to be the leading shop for both SIG and HK handgun work, a natural rivalry exists between the HK and SIG wings of the business. However, I hope to make it plain that I wasn't "going after" the HK pistol out of some bias towards the new SIG product, or anything like that. Rick's posting on that other forum under my name did cause some strange exchanges, the true tenor of which were lost on the cold, impersonal computer screen.

In truth, we work on as many HK's each year as we do SIG pistols, and I personally have a history with each firm and their products going back 30 years or more. Our work with both, in addition to our high grade custom 1911's and other work, allow us to keep nine outstanding people in solid employment.

It is true that our company is involved with SIG Sauer on several projects. I disclose that one of these projects involves development of the P320.

Thank you for reading!

-Bruce Gray / Grayguns Inc. / Operation Specific Training / WCSO

[Bruce Gray]

By the way, let me please thank those of you who made some very generous comments here. I'm very proud of my Crew, and they work hard to make me look good. -B

[JM Campbell]

Bruce thank you joining the discussion, I hope we can see more of your insights here on the forum.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

[LittleLebowski]

Gentlemen, I am grateful for the opportunity to directly address the VP9, respond to your questions and comments, and clarify a few things.

Yes, it is true and my initial impression of the VP9's mechanics was not entirely positive. I saw some truly unusual mechanical gizmos in there that seemed a bit tenuous and needlessly complex to my eye. I hereby acknowledge that some of my initial impressions were due to the simple newness of the thing, as some folks here have suggested. I agree. I should not have jumped the gun, so to speak, in making what were certainly seen as rash and potentially even biased criticisms. That is very unlike me, and I hope I can be forgiven for it.

That said, the issue with the trigger bar spring bearing that some folks suggested is not an issue, is indeed an issue for some folks. Without question, improper handling of the spring unit during disassembly or reassembly can separate the bearing and cause the potential for a failure. OI have had two reports of such issues besides the problem we experienced with the pistol Rick wrote about as referenced in this thread. One was of a pistol bought second hand in which the bearing and spring separated, and the other was of a pistol that the owner detail stripped ostensibly while assessing it for duty use. One pistol was returned for service. I don't know the disposition of the other pistol.

This induced me to condemn the spring and bearing arrangement as less than optimal at best. I may have used sharper words. From an engineering serviceability standpoints, this strange little bearing is a liability in my opinion. Nothing I have seen thus far alters that view. I deeply respect Rick and his opinion of the VP9, and we each can articulate our reasoned opinions.

In many other respects, I have come around to a more enlightened view of this pistol via Ricks's excellent work on this platform. He has made specialized tools to simplify disassembly. He has devised very certain techniques to improve the action's smoothness and reliability. He's now able to bring consistency to these pistols, whereas as some of you here have observed, they tend to vary gun to gun quite a bit in trigger feel. If I may say with great pride and obvious bias, Rick has these things pretty much knocked, and he's brought me along.

For the record, Rick's focus is not on trigger pull reduction for duty / carry VP9's. It's not necessary nor wise to go appreciably below the 5.5 average weight as issued by HK. I would prefer 6.5 pounds for general duty issue in this platform. We do have a number of competitors who want to run the VP9, and his initial work probed the limits a bit with this application in mind. His duty work is centred upon cleaning up the characteristic drag and stalling felt in the typical VP9 trigger takeup, attenuating gross overtravel, and assuring improved firing pin safety lock integrity and function.

BY the same token, Rick was bitterly critical of the new SIG P320 at first blush. His comment was, "It's full of parts from an old VCR player." To be honest, I kind of thought the same thing at first. Since I'm proud to be able to state that our shop happens to be the leading shop for both SIG and HK handgun work, a natural rivalry exists between the HK and SIG wings of the business. However, I hope to make it plain that I wasn't "going after" the HK pistol out of some bias towards the new SIG product, or anything like that. Rick's posting on that other forum under my name did cause some strange exchanges, the true tenor of which were lost on the cold, impersonal computer screen.

In truth, we work on as many HK's each year as we do SIG pistols, and I personally have a history with each firm and their products going back 30 years or more. Our work with both, in addition to our high grade custom 1911's and other work, allow us to keep nine outstanding people in solid employment.

It is true that our company is involved with SIG Sauer on several projects. I disclose that one of these projects involves development of the P320.

Thank you for reading!

-Bruce Gray / Grayguns Inc. / Operation Specific Training / WCSO

Well said and welcome aboard!

[Savage Hands]

Welcome Bruce!

[Dagga Boy]

As one of the guys very critical of Bruce's post...........especially from a guy with a HK45C and a full house P7 from Grayguns, I appreciate Bruce's response and I am glad to see him here, and appreciate the response.

I am still of the opinion of not judging guns by people jacking them up. Seriously Bruce, how many Sig Trigger bar springs have you seen installed wrong? If I had a nickel for that one with my people, I could have bought several meals. I don't think that makes the classic P series guns lacking. I got a great deal on a like new P30 out of a store that was a "the guy just didn't like it" story. Turns out the "guy" had driven a pin through the firing pin spring. Why somebody would be driving these pins out on a new gun (and I am sure it wasn't with the correct metric punches), I don't know, but welcome to the American gun owner. How many P7's have been back to HK in bags. I am weird in that I actually like to go to the factory schools to hear from the trained guys how to do things correct that came from the engineers and designers. I will likely get to a VP 9 school at some point. I do know that some stuff in the VP9 is directional. Now, I realize that I am not even remotely close to even be allowed in the parking lot of Grayguns as far as gunsmithing and armorer skills, but I am still hesitant to pass too much judgement based on the experimental phase. I am also thankful that Rick is up there.......it has renewed my faith and I know who to send my VP9 to with the "Attention" sticker on it.....;).

I have a VP9 with the not so hot trigger, but I shoot the gun so good I was hesitant to send it back to HK or do anything with. I think when I get a spare, my faith has been renewed enough that maybe I will send it to Rick for a duty tune. Thanks again to Bruce for manning up, and admitting that you may have jumped the gun a bit. That goes REALLY far with me. I am also glad to hear you are feeling better and look forward to seeing the return of the legend.

[Bruce Gray]

nyeti, I greatly appreciate your comments and your kind thoughts. I'm doing great, thank you.

I really like what Rick is doing with the VP9, and at the risk of indulging in an understandable conflict of interest, I know your faith in his work and knowledge is perfectly placed. He's certainly shown me some things I needed to see. And he no longer calls the P320 bad things. Harmony has been restored. :-)

-Bruce

[LittleLebowski]

Thanks again to Bruce for manning up, and admitting that you may have jumped the gun a bit. That goes REALLY far with me.

Me too. Appears that this forum has another asset.

[Bruce Gray]

nyeti and friends, a friend of ours messaged me on Facebook today to make me aware of another trigger bar spring bearing failure. If this is an authentic post, it makes four failures known to me, including the one Rick and I originally worked (on and which we likely precipitated the issue with.) This report is found on HK-Pro.com, and the OP includes a couple images showing the assembled frame with the spring clearly separated from the plastic bearing doodad. I pray that this cross-posting is deemed acceptable given the situation.

http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk-handgun-talk/206988-vp9-trigger-bar-spring-failure.html

I'm not beating this horse, but if there is a legitimate problem I believe it should be addressed.

Nyeti, when we develop our armourer's course for this new offering, we'll keep you in mind now that we hopefully know how not to break it.
Thank you.

-Bruce / Disclosure: President, Grayguns Inc, a shop specializing in both SIG and HK handgun work, where our discussions over lunch have been pretty animated lately. ;)

[LittleLebowski]

Bruce, don't worry about cross posting when relaying good info.

[Dagga Boy]

I saw that the other day. Smells fishy. I am pretty regular over there. Guy shows up out of the blue with the "Bruce Gray" problem, is able to post lots of pictures (I don't even know how to do that there, which isn't saying much but is a clue), has not been back since someone uses your post to note that it looks like it can only happen during disassembly and the "did you try to take it apart question is asked". This stuff happens all the time there. The very famous cracked slide HK45 was found to have been in a vise during a home night sight attempt. All the bubble gum enthusiast forums get stuff like this. A good example was my nearly new and unfired P30 with the cut firing pin spring. It is amazing what guys think they need to take apart. Ever since they did the video on how to detail strip the VP9 (which is not a super easy process) I worried that this would become an issue as it is a part obviously not designed for the curious American gun owner.

I will wait till HK says something. If warranty starts getting a lot of actual guns back, you ll see a new part. That is also not new to any company.

[JV_]

For those that haven't seen it, the 320 discussion was moved here:
http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?13706-P320

[Bruce Gray]

The OP who posted his issue with this spring over on HK-Pro did come back to say he was contacting HK, and he challenged one of the members' not so subtle implication that his post was a troll job. Less subtle than that are the comments blandly assuming that we just made this whole thing up to sell something. Charming.

I'm going to attempt to contact this OP and see if he's on the level here.

-Bruce

[GJM]

The OP who posted his issue with this spring over on HK-Pro did come back to say he was contacting HK, and he challenged one of the members' not so subtle implication that his post was a troll job. Less subtle than that are the comments blandly assuming that we just made this whole thing up to sell something. Charming.

I'm going to attempt to contact this OP and see if he's on the level here.

-Bruce

Since you are new around here, you must have missed the forum memo.

HK is perfect until proven otherwise. Sig is imperfect until proven otherwise.

:)

[Dagga Boy]

Let me make something perfectly clear: Wayne and I daily carry VP9's to protect ourselves and the things we love most. If there is an issue, nobody wants to know about it and have it addressed more than me. HK, SIG, Glock, Smith, Beretta, and every other reputable service pistol has needed some tweaks over time as unplanned engineering issues crop up along with "stupid cop tricks".

If the issue is that the gun is not made well for YouTube gunsmith's, that is of little concern to me at this point and something that HK will likely address due to typical .gov armorers not being any sort of real gunsmith's (and that is not a slam, and it would be demeaning to real gunsmith's to put parts installers in the same classification). If it is a real issue and weakness and becomes a common failure prone part....then it needs to get fixed. I would be interested to see how the attachment is done on the same part with HK MK23. If it was never a problem with a fairly hard use pistol that wasn't publicly popular would be a good indicator.

SIG has made its own bed in the last decade. I won't own a new one. I love my old W. German guns and will not sell any of them. That is me, based on my own observations first hand and not based on internet anything. My HK opinions are also based on first hand interaction. It seems that the two companies are fairly cyclic in their various ups and downs.

[GJM]

I wouldn't carry a VP9, Sig 320 or any new service pistol to protect myself. I won't fly the first 50 serial numbers of any new fixed wing, or the first 100 serial numbers of any helicopter. Regardless of the manufacturer -- Sig, HK, Boeing, Cessna or Bell. I want any many early adopters as possible before me to try to work the kinks out of things that can save or end your life.

Darryl, that you would carry a new HK service pistol speaks volumes about your confidence in HK. That kind of brand loyalty is priceless.

I will also say that my personal experience with 2010 to current model P226 pistols is excellent. They just run, and nothing has broken on the half dozen of them I have. The only Sig problem I am personally aware of is with a classic 228 owned by YVK, that has ignition problems.

[Dagga Boy]

Weirdly, I am normally kind of like this as well, but in regards to HK's I have been pretty lucky. I had one of the first USP45's in the country, and we adopted them as a SWAT gun within about 6 months of release. I had a USP9Compact in the 180 serial number range and on of the very first USP45 Compacts as well. I have a couple very early HK45C's that have been flawless as well.

So, I have been lucky. Mine and Wayne's VP9's have been flawless in several thousand rounds and we both aced Tom Given's Instructor class. I may actually clean mine this week. If there is an issue, I figure that the Grayguns solution will be a viable option if HK isn't. After all, one of my Glocks was one of the Beta guns for the APEX extractor for Glocks for a non-existent problem.

As far as the SIGs. I am privy to some info that still scares me with their QC. Luckily, like Glock, they have some great field people who are getting some customer issues addressed at the agency level and with individual officers with problems. Not sure how things are going on the commercial side. It seems like some of these companies are using the old HK model on the customer service side. Again.......the world is ending. Everything is upside down. I shake my head at some of what goes on with these companies.

[Bruce Gray]

Weirdly, I am normally kind of like this as well, but in regards to HK's I have been pretty lucky. I had one of the first USP45's in the country, and we adopted them as a SWAT gun within about 6 months of release. I had a USP9Compact in the 180 serial number range and on of the very first USP45 Compacts as well. I have a couple very early HK45C's that have been flawless as well.

So, I have been lucky. Mine and Wayne's VP9's have been flawless in several thousand rounds and we both aced Tom Given's Instructor class. I may actually clean mine this week. If there is an issue, I figure that the Grayguns solution will be a viable option if HK isn't. After all, one of my Glocks was one of the Beta guns for the APEX extractor for Glocks for a non-existent problem.

As far as the SIGs. I am privy to some info that still scares me with their QC. Luckily, like Glock, they have some great field people who are getting some customer issues addressed at the agency level and with individual officers with problems. Not sure how things are going on the commercial side. It seems like some of these companies are using the old HK model on the customer service side. Again.......the world is ending. Everything is upside down. I shake my head at some of what goes on with these companies.

(I believe the world ends when the Lord wills it, or much sooner for the man who gives up on it. My 2 cents...)

If this were four, six, eight years ago, nyeti, I would agree with your assessment of SIG Sauer's QC and so forth. And I can't blame you for how you still feel and certainly respect that informed opinion. There were a number of issues that we all struggled with and kept stumbling over. To a humble company that offers a lifetime guarantee for everything we do, these issues were more than just an inconvenience. Rather, these issues caused great problems with our customers, cost our company tens of thousands of dollars in potential growth as we ate prophylactic fixes or occasional reworks for issues unrelated to our original work, and ultimately prompted us to make bar stock analogs for a raft of fire control parts and extractors at great expense.

However, this is today. I've been to the new factory at Pease. I've witnessed their production systems at work in some detail. We work on and handle a LOT of current production SIG's. They are better, markedly so, their people are better, markedly so, and I'm a believer again.

Similarly, HK has had their share of issues with CS and QA. As their factory shooter driving the USP, I broke all sorts of things. It took them time. They have since come around to be a truly excellent outfit that has learned to take care of their customers and make great stuff. There is a reason why we are the largest custom pistolsmithing firm for BOTH makes. Beyond my association with each firm (I was a factory shooter for each at various times in my long career), that lifetime guarantee of ours should speak for me.

I apologize for the drift.

-Bruce Gray / Disclosure: We work on a LOT of SIG's and HK's.

[Wayne Dobbs]

Bruce,

It's great to see you here, brother!

Wayne

[Bruce Gray]

Bruce,

It's great to see you here, brother!

Wayne

Thank you, Wayne! As you may have heard, I've been recovering from a long illness and am thrilled to be here on P-F to see my friends. I want very much to catch up with you now that I'm well. I've missed you.

-Bruce

[Bruce Gray]

Update: This afternoon I spoke with the OP who recently reported an ostensible VP9 trigger bar bearing failure on HK-Pro.com. Though he has heard of GGI, he hasn't previously contacted us or been a customer. He took the time to call me, and described in some detail the history of the pistol (he bought it new 3 weeks ago) and the circumstances by which he says it failed (after about 330 rounds). His manner and narrative didn't smack of any agenda, and gave me every reason to believe his story as legitimate. FWIW.

-Bruce

[Dagga Boy]

Wayne and I will have a class with nothing but VP9's next month. If there is an issue.....we should see it then.

[JHC]

Update: This afternoon I spoke with the OP who recently reported an ostensible VP9 trigger bar bearing failure on HK-Pro.com. Though he has heard of GGI, he hasn't previously contacted us or been a customer. He took the time to call me, and described in some detail the history of the pistol (he bought it new 3 weeks ago) and the circumstances by which he says it failed (after about 330 rounds). His manner and narrative didn't smack of any agenda, and gave me every reason to believe his story as legitimate. FWIW.

-Bruce

Bruce,
I showed that story to a former PF member who got one of these to try out; he tries out almost everything; and he commented that while he enjoyed shooting the gun and did like the trigger feel, his would fail to reset a lot in dry fire. It didn't manifest in his live fire, but in dry fire it was consistent. He's on my FB page if you want to reach out to him for details.

[LittleLebowski]

Wayne and I will have a class with nothing but VP9's next month. If there is an issue.....we should see it then.

Associated with HK or an agency? No prob if you can't say.

[GJM]

Wayne and I will have a class with nothing but VP9's next month. If there is an issue.....we should see it then.

Given the incredibly few reports of this possible issue, I would be extremely surprised if any VP9 in your class had a problem. I suspect only HK has an idea, based on getting CS calls. The real question is what happens when the fleet accumulates high round counts and bubba starts working on them.

[gtmtnbiker98]

The real question is what happens when the fleet accumulates high round counts and bubba starts working on them.They'll buff it out with their dremel.

[Dagga Boy]

Associated with HK or an agency? No prob if you can't say.

Open class. It is a test bed run sort of proof of concept on something we have been working on that is a good fit for the VP9. There will be several folks from HK there, some heavyweight dealers and distributers, but in no way shape or form sponsored by HK.

[Clay]

Awesome news. I'll be interested in hearing how the guns perform.

[TAZ]

I would be interested to see how the attachment is done on the same part with HK MK23. If it was never a problem with a fairly hard use pistol that wasn't publicly popular would be a good indicator.

Just had a chance look at the parts diagram and pictures of the Mk23 spring and trigger bar. I'm no gunsmith and don't have a Mk23 on hand to looks at, but IMO the similarity in the design ends at the type of spring used. The Mk23 spring has a sharp 90 degree bend at the end and inserts into a hole in the trigger bar. No little bearing thingie with blind hole. I'd like to hear some more reports of this failure, especially from those who haven't tried to bubba smith their guns. I would like to think that HK though this through and either epoxied the spring in place or secured it in some fashion rather than rely on the spring tension keeping the assembly together. As the round count goes up its going to flush stuff out. Maybe it's a good thing that JM is weeks out on deliveries and I'll have some time to flush more rounds through my unit before replacing the P30 as the EDC gun.

[Comedian]

In regards to this issue i wonder how the VP9 would hold up after 93,000 rds fired?

[Greg Bell]

One data point. Mine just passed 5k. Approx 900 or so in a E Langdon class a month or so back. Great gun.

[Bruce Gray]

Bruce,
I showed that story to a former PF member who got one of these to try out; he tries out almost everything; and he commented that while he enjoyed shooting the gun and did like the trigger feel, his would fail to reset a lot in dry fire. It didn't manifest in his live fire, but in dry fire it was consistent. He's on my FB page if you want to reach out to him for details.

Thank you. I'd like to see why this is being reported. -Bruce

[RJ]

When this trigger bar spring thread was going down last fall, I was trying to fire 10 shot groups with my M&P FS9 into the black.

Now, it's a year later, and I have a VP9

Have you guys seen this 'fail to reset' problem since the initial rash of issues referenced earlier in the thread?

Or has this particular failure mode been laid to rest for the VP9, and it's weird S-shaped spring is GTG?

[Luke]

I had one, and have read numerous threads about the reset issue. In my opinion, the VP9 had a design in the trigger mechanism that has almost 2 resets. The first one is simy just a hitch in the reset that makes you think it reset, the second one is the real reset. I stripped mine down a few times trying to polish certain areas to get it to quit doing it, wasn't successful. I loved the gun but sold it because for some reason I rode the reset pretty good, I could have multiple failure to fire do to not actually resetting the trigger. I have a video I'll try and post

[Luke]

http://i400.photobucket.com/albums/pp81/hook_setter/Mobile%20Uploads/th_trim.A2D2FAC0-EDE6-48F0-9F45-89CF068786DF_zpsoadtreat.mp4 (http://i400.photobucket.com/albums/pp81/hook_setter/Mobile%20Uploads/trim.A2D2FAC0-EDE6-48F0-9F45-89CF068786DF_zpsoadtreat.mp4)

[Luke]

Idk if that's the right video. I took 2. For some reason it won't let me watch either one?

[CDFIII]

Anyone hit a semi high rd. count with their VP9 yet? I'm talking 5000+? So far I'm up to 1k on my primary and app. 400 on my second VP9. I really like this gun but still in the back of my mind the epoxied spring connection still kinda freaks me out. Maybe it's just my OCD but that one little thing just keeps nagging me. Guess that's why I haven't completely switched over from my P30's to the VP9's for my primary EDC guns yet.

[Dagga Boy]

Anyone hit a semi high rd. count with their VP9 yet? I'm talking 5000+? So far I'm up to 1k on my primary and app. 400 on my second VP9. I really like this gun but still in the back of my mind the epoxied spring connection still kinda freaks me out. Maybe it's just my OCD but that one little thing just keeps nagging me. Guess that's why I haven't completely switched over from my P30's to the VP9's for my primary EDC guns yet.

Yea, Wayne and I should be over 5000 in ours with no issues. The only issues I have heard of with the spring is when one was broken during disassembly while figuring the gun out at the Grayguns shop, and then a few reports right after that went public. We have seen more VP9's in classes than most and have not had a single gun go down. I know of one officer dealing with a broken recoil spring retainer, but that is about it. If people are losing sleep just waiting for their VP9 to self destruct, I highly suggest buying a Glock. I carry a VP9 almost exclusively at this point and still am happy with that decision. The only big change has been to switch to a more conventional IWB carry instead of AIWB. If I carry AIWB I am using a Grayguns P2000, but otherwise it's the vP9 most of the time.
As far as double reset. Mine do not do that, but I haven't polished anything either. I can make it do it on occasion by putting sideways pressure on the trigger so I can feel the very slight point where the firing pin block is re-engaged right before reset. Otherwise in normal dry practice or shooting it resets without issue and is tactile and audible as a single reset. Again, if the reset is not workable, I highly suggest buying a Glock. I am weird in that I have not done a thing to mine and just shoot them in stock form, so I may not have a clear understanding on the horrific issues.

[ralph]

Anyone hit a semi high rd. count with their VP9 yet? I'm talking 5000+? So far I'm up to 1k on my primary and app. 400 on my second VP9. I really like this gun but still in the back of my mind the epoxied spring connection still kinda freaks me out. Maybe it's just my OCD but that one little thing just keeps nagging me. Guess that's why I haven't completely switched over from my P30's to the VP9's for my primary EDC guns yet.

I believe there's a guy over at HKpro who has over 12,000rnds on his VP9,with zero issues...No parts breaking, nothing.. I don't know what more people could ask for. I have two myself, one with about 2000rnds, the other with about 1200,no issues with either, both ran like scalded apes right out of the box. Which is way more than I can say about a certain grey framed G19 that I own...

[CDFIII]

Yea, Wayne and I should be over 5000 in ours with no issues. The only issues I have heard of with the spring is when one was broken during disassembly while figuring the gun out at the Grayguns shop, and then a few reports right after that went public. We have seen more VP9's in classes than most and have not had a single gun go down. I know of one officer dealing with a broken recoil spring retainer, but that is about it. If people are losing sleep just waiting for their VP9 to self destruct, I highly suggest buying a Glock. I carry a VP9 almost exclusively at this point and still am happy with that decision. The only big change has been to switch to a more conventional IWB carry instead of AIWB. If I carry AIWB I am using a Grayguns P2000, but otherwise it's the vP9 most of the time.
As far as double reset. Mine do not do that, but I haven't polished anything either. I can make it do it on occasion by putting sideways pressure on the trigger so I can feel the very slight point where the firing pin block is re-engaged right before reset. Otherwise in normal dry practice or shooting it resets without issue and is tactile and audible as a single reset. Again, if the reset is not workable, I highly suggest buying a Glock. I am weird in that I have not done a thing to mine and just shoot them in stock form, so I may not have a clear understanding on the horrific issues.

Nyeti,
I appreciate your response. I agree about the double reset... Neither of my VP9's have it. So to me that is a non issue. I was more curious on guns with higher rd. counts than myself. As I stated I'm sure it's merely my OCD. I am more than pleased with their performance and will eventually start putting them in my EDC rotation.
As far as Glock's go I'm one of the lucky ones that's had to send a Gen4 19 back to the factory more than once. So I'm pretty much done with them. Got an early Gen3 that's great so I'll keep that one.
On a side note I recently stripped the slide off a couple new VP40 and noticed that HK has increased the epoxy to the point it's coated about 1/4" of the spring and has it slathered on both sides of the poly bearing. Just made me wonder if they where having more issues.
Not trying to insinuate that there are but its always nice to hear from others that get a lot more time behind the platform than myself.

[JBP55]

I would be disappointed if one of my HK pistols had a parts breakage at 12,000 rounds. I put 5 times that round count through a Gen 4 Glock with zero issues.
I think I will pick up another VP9 before they "dry up" for 2015.