Remington 870: 18" vs 14" for patrol

[secondstoryguy]

I'm considering building a 14" 870 for patrol work. What are the downsides of running a 14" 870 vs an 18" gun?

[John Hearne]

We've been running 14" 870's for years now. Everybody likes how easy they are to maneuver within the confines of our shrinking patrol vehicles. We run them with the Vang +1 extension and they are just HANDY.

The only downsides that I've seen are minor. First, if you're running a Surefire Foreend, the light is now in front of the muzzle and we take them off to qual. Second, our guns do not pattern full power buck well at all. Like pellets barely on a Transtar at 15 yards. Reduced power buck is just fine. (I run all slugs so this doesn't affect me)

[Chuck Haggard]

I ran a 14" Mossberg 590 for awhile. There was very little downside, except as noted by John ref the old style Sure Fire foreend. One can get shorter lights nowadays so it is a non-issue.

My gun patterend with Flightcontrol just as well as our 18 and 20" guns.

[jetfire]

I ran a 14" Mossberg 590 for awhile. There was very little downside, except as noted by John ref the old style Sure Fire foreend. One can get shorter lights nowadays so it is a non-issue.

My gun patterend with Flightcontrol just as well as our 18 and 20" guns.

Damn you guys and your easy access to sweet-ass short barreled shotguns. I want a 14 inch 590 so bad it hurts.

[GJM]

I have been using one in AK for five years. The 14 inch is louder, and seems to recoil a bit more, but since getting them papered, I have never again used an 18 inch 870 up here.

I think pattern is more a function of your barrel than length. My 14 inch barrels are Vang'd, and seem to pattern fine, although I use slugs. I ended up replacing some barrels without porting, as the porting on so short a barrel hurts my ears when shooting without muffs. I really like the Magpul stock with Brenneke slugs.

As John said, they are much easy to maneuver, although in my case that is planes and boats, not patrol cars. Caleb, I am curious why the 590, and unlike the 870 which is just a barrel swap, they seem more fuss to go to 14. A few days ago, I took this picture of a Guide a Gun, 14 870 and 18.5 Benelli:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/imagejpg1_zpseb4040b1.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/imagejpg1_zpseb4040b1.jpg.html)

[John Hearne]

Damn you guys and your easy access to sweet-ass short barreled shotguns. I want a 14 inch 590 so bad it hurts.

Don't hate me just because I can call Remington, give them someone else's credit card, get a short barrel, and slap it on without any paperwork. :p A .gov e-mail addy can be very handy....

[jetfire]

Caleb, I am curious why the 590, and unlike the 870 which is just a barrel swap, they seem more fuss to go to 14.

I really prefer the location of the safety on the Mossberg to the Remington.

[Lester Polfus]

You'll note what appears to be a handstop on the front of GJM's 14" gun. It is easier to get your hot, sweaty hands out in front of the muzzle on a 14" gun. As I mentioned in Tam's thread on the Kel-Tec shotgun mishap, I almost had a hook for a hand due to a mishap with a breaching gun, although that was a 10" barrel. I feel that a handstop is an important accessory once the barrel gets below 18".

The boom is also 4" closer to your face, but that's manageable. They are right handy for the interior of houses, trailer homes, and ships. I've maneuvered around with a 14" 870, an MP5, and a 10" AR-15 and since the shotgun is shorter in all dimensions, length and height, as their is no mag sticking out the bottom, it's the easiest in tight spots.

[Lester Polfus]

I have been using one in AK for five years. The 14 inch is louder, and seems to recoil a bit more, but since getting them papered, I have never again used an 18 inch 870 up here.

I think pattern is more a function of your barrel than length. My 14 inch barrels are Vang'd, and seem to pattern fine, although I use slugs. I ended up replacing some barrels without porting, as the porting on so short a barrel hurts my ears when shooting without muffs. I really like the Magpul stock with Brenneke slugs.

As John said, they are much easy to maneuver, although in my case that is planes and boats, not patrol cars. Caleb, I am curious why the 590, and unlike the 870 which is just a barrel swap, they seem more fuss to go to 14. A few days ago, I took this picture of a Guide a Gun, 14 870 and 18.5 Benelli:


Your guide gun has the barrel shortened to 16"? Yes?

[GJM]

I really prefer the location of the safety on the Mossberg to the Remington.

I do too, but that is all I prefer about the Mossberg. Amongst other things, they don't seem to slick up as well as the 870.


You'll note what appears to be a handstop on the front of GJM's 14" gun. It is easier to get your hot, sweaty hands out in front of the muzzle on a 14" gun. As I mentioned in Tam's thread on the Kel-Tec shotgun mishap, I almost had a hook for a hand due to a mishap with a breaching gun, although that was a 10" barrel. I feel that a handstop is an important accessory once the barrel gets below 18".

The boom is also 4" closer to your face, but that's manageable. They are right handy for the interior of houses, trailer homes, and ships. I've maneuvered around with a 14" 870, an MP5, and a 10" AR-15 and since the shotgun is shorter in all dimensions, length and height, as their is no mag sticking out the bottom, it's the easiest in tight spots.

That "stop" is the sling holder on the Vang +1 extension. I have trained myself to hold the rear portion of the fore end, which seems to run it faster for me and keep my hand away from the business end. Once, I was sighting in slugs over the seat of an ATV, and my support hand thumb got forward on the fore end. At the shot, I thought my thumb fell off. It turned out my support thumb had gotten over one of the Vang recoil reduction ports on the front of the barrel. My thumb was blackened, hurt like hell, but fortunately did no lasting damage.


Your guide gun has the barrel shortened to 16"? Yes?

16.25 on the Guide Gun.

[TR675]

It is easier to get your hot, sweaty hands out in front of the muzzle on a 14" gun. As I mentioned in Tam's thread on the Kel-Tec shotgun mishap, I almost had a hook for a hand due to a mishap with a breaching gun, although that was a 10" barrel. I feel that a handstop is an important accessory once the barrel gets below 18".

Seems to me like the Surefire fore ends would help with this in addition to being a good white light, but I have spent no time with one...any thoughts on them?

[Lester Polfus]

16.25 on the Guide Gun.

Roger. That .25 is nice, in case the ATF guy's ruler measures a little different than your gunsmith's...

[gskip]

Would you guys say you would prefer a 14 in SBS or a 10 in SBR'ed AR15 for patrol use? Just curious.

[pablo]

Would you guys say you would prefer a 14 in SBS or a 10 in SBR'ed AR15 for patrol use? Just curious.

I would take the 14" SBS. A 16" ar with a collapsible stock and a 14" 870 are pretty close in size. I carry an 18" 870 up front in the gun rack and an AR in the trunk. I would like to have a shorter shotgun up front for maneuverability, I don't have any problems with the length of the rifle and getting it out of the trunk.

[jetfire]

I do too, but that is all I prefer about the Mossberg. Amongst other things, they don't seem to slick up as well as the 870.

I don't disagree with that, a properly slicked up 870 is a wondrous thing to operate. As I spend more time shooting shotguns, I appreciate the utilitarian beater nature of the Mossberg more and more. "Hey, this gun cost 300 dollars but if I throw it off a train it still works. Cool."

[pablo]

I don't disagree with that, a properly slicked up 870 is a wondrous thing to operate. As I spend more time shooting shotguns, I appreciate the utilitarian beater nature of the Mossberg more and more. "Hey, this gun cost 300 dollars but if I throw it off a train it still works. Cool."

The Mossberg is a lot easier to fix as well. The Remington might win in the durability department (in theory at least) but there are some common repairs, like broken ejectors, that are a lot more work on the Remington than the Mossberg.

[Chuck Haggard]

They are right handy for the interior of houses, trailer homes, and ships. I've maneuvered around with a 14" 870, an MP5, and a 10" AR-15 and since the shotgun is shorter in all dimensions, length and height, as their is no mag sticking out the bottom, it's the easiest in tight spots.

^This^

Comes out of the passenger side of a compact car more gooder too when one is running plain clothes robbery surveillance.


The Mossberg is a lot easier to fix as well. The Remington might win in the durability department (in theory at least) but there are some common repairs, like broken ejectors, that are a lot more work on the Remington than the Mossberg.

Working on both at the agency level, we have over 150 shotguns in the inventory, I have found this to be very much true.

[BLR]

I do too, but that is all I prefer about the Mossberg. Amongst other things, they don't seem to slick up as well as the 870.


I really need to show you the 12 Trench gun I've been playing with.

I <3 <3 <3 <3 shotguns

[SeriousStudent]

I really need to show you the 12 Trench gun I've been playing with.

I <3 <3 <3 <3 shotguns

Oh please, oh please......

[BLR]

I come from shotgun stock. The old man is an unabashed shotgun man. His collection is worth more than his house. I blackmail him with that when necessary

[LHS]

Oh yes, you certainly do. I love me some model 12 trenchy goodness.


I really need to show you the 12 Trench gun I've been playing with.

I <3 <3 <3 <3 shotguns

[SWAT Lt.]

I had a 14" 870 for a while which was right handy but didn't pattern terribly well (IC choke). I upgraded to a 14" 870 with a modified choke and it shot great. We issued Federal Tactical 00B and that gun gave nothing up to the 18" guns, especially when the FLITECONTROL wad came out. I personally prefer the 870 to the Mossberg.

[Rich]

I ran a 14" Mossberg 590 for awhile. There was very little downside, except as noted by John ref the old style Sure Fire foreend. One can get shorter lights nowadays so it is a non-issue.

My gun patterend with Flightcontrol just as well as our 18 and 20" guns.

You guys are so lucky. I wish the ATF would change the law and allow use permit holders to use barrels under 18inches.

[Crusader8207]

I run an 870 14" with a Mesa Tactical LEO recoil reducing stock. I recently sent it to Vang Comp for their sights and barrel porting. Hornady 8 pellet 00 buck pattern nicely out to 20 yards. It is my favorite shotgun.2542

[GJM]

How do you like that stock with slugs?

[Crusader8207]

How do you like that stock with slugs?

I like it a lot. This past weekend I shot an 870 without the Mesa LEO stock and couldn't believe the noticable difference. I highly recommend it. (I shot both 00 bucks and slugs through both guns)

[Drang]

...I wish the government would eliminate the ATF and laws that prohibit citizens from using firearms used by law enforcement.
FIFY. (Or for me, at least.)
I don't realistically envision my having a need for a short barreled shotgun, but, inspired by Matthew Quigley, that doesn't mean I wouldn't like to have the option to own one. Would be easier to maneuver around Neue Schloss Drang, for one thing.

[Jeep]

FIFY. (Or for me, at least.)
I don't realistically envision my having a need for a short barreled shotgun, but, inspired by Matthew Quigley, that doesn't mean I wouldn't like to have the option to own one. Would be easier to maneuver around Neue Schloss Drang, for one thing.

Short barreled shotguns, short barreled carbines, and pistols with stocks are all potentially excellent defensive choices. If we could get rid of these ridiculous restrictions, I think we would see all kinds of better firearms develop. However, I see almost no chance that our political masters would allow it. They know nothing about weapons and their bodyguards have all the firepower they need so they see no need to expand the types of weapons we may legally own.

A society that says that a 17 inch barrel on a shotgun constitutes a felony is a society with far too many laws and far too little common sense.

[Erick Gelhaus]

We began issuing 14" 870s office wide back in '04 and now have about 260 in service. For several years previous, we had issued 18" 870s and allowed the use of personally owned ones as well. Our issue loads are a Winchester reduced recoil 8 pellet 00buck and slug; there is a 2 3/4" Brenneke slug available for those who train, zero and qual with them. The guns are issued with slings, side saddles and scattergun ghost ring sights.

Someone noted ejector failures and it is interesting how many of those we have seen.

The only shooting we have had with one involved the suppression of an ambush.

As mentioned, they are easier to deploy from a vehicle. More than a handful of us carry it with just the Brennekes for use when dealing with potentially armed suspects in vehicles.

[GJM]

I would be interested in hearing more details about your ejector failures. Given the number of shotguns you had out there, you probably had a big enough sample to see trends.

[pablo]

We have around 350 870's in service. Most of the broken ejectors I saw were from the front of the ejector breaking off. I suspect that this has more to do with improper reassembly (hitting the front of the ejector with the barrel) than anything else. I've seen broken ejector springs from someone firing the shotgun without the bolt in the receiver. I'm not at an agency that encourages shooting, so problems related to high round counts are few and far between.

[John Hearne]

We don't shoot a lot either. The the only problem Ive seen over the years are broken shell latches.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk

[pablo]

I haven't seen any broken shell latches, I've seen one that came unstaked and I suspect that was a product of improper reassembly.

Overall the most common way to break an 870 that I've seen is to slam a trunk lid or support arm on the shotgun, or put in the back of the trunk against the lid latch and wait for the squad car to get rear ended. The latter claims 3-4 rifles and shotguns a year.

[5pins]

80% of our 870’s that come in for rebuild have broken ejectors. Most are broken at the front like Pablo said form improper installation or allowing the barrel to become loose.

[Erick Gelhaus]

I've shipped nine or ten (3%ish) to VCS, Remington's west coast warranty shop, over the past few years. While their comment has been that the ejector is a wear issue, those hear indicting improper assembly makes more sense.

[JF1]

Scattergun uses the Remington Express model as their base gun. Remington does not recommend LE/MIL using anything other then the 870 Police model for the following reasons;

1. All Police shotguns are assembled in a “special build area” at the plant in Ilion, NY. This section is secured and serves only to build LE and Military shotguns, with the same factory personnel working at that assignment each shift.
2. Due to heavy recoil in buck and slug loads, all 870 Police guns have a longer magazine spring which ensures positive feed and function.
3. A heavier sear spring is used to generate a reliable, positive trigger pull between 5-8 lbs.
4. A heavier carrier dog spring is used to ensure when the carrier elevates the shell, it will be held there until the bolt can push it into the chamber. This ensures positive feeding when using heavier payload rounds.
5. Police shotguns do not have an ISS (Integrated Safety System) which is a locking mechanism on the safety of commercial shotguns. This type of locking mechanism can cause delay to an officer who needs the weapon but does not have the appropriate key.
6. LE shotguns have the standard, proven, cross bolt safety.
7. The fore-end on the Express model is longer and not compatible with many police shotgun vehicle racks.
8. The Express model will not allow for the addition of an extension tube without physical modification to the tube and barrel, which can nullify the warranty.
9. The Express model utilizes a synthetic trigger housing while the Police models use a compressed metal housing.
10. The Police shotgun barrel is locked down with a “ball detent” system in conjunction with the magazine cap vs. a lesser grade “synthetic magazine spring retainer” lock down as used on the Express system.
11. Police shotguns use machined ejectors and extractors, as opposed to powdered metal cast (PMC) which are utilized on the Express models.

Our Express models are not holding up. Why anyone would sell it as a duty weapon is a sign of the times.

[farscott]

Scattergun uses the Remington Express model as their base gun. Remington does not recommend LE/MIL using anything other then the 870 Police model for the following reasons;

1. All Police shotguns are assembled in a “special build area” at the plant in Ilion, NY. This section is secured and serves only to build LE and Military shotguns, with the same factory personnel working at that assignment each shift.
2. Due to heavy recoil in buck and slug loads, all 870 Police guns have a longer magazine spring which ensures positive feed and function.
3. A heavier sear spring is used to generate a reliable, positive trigger pull between 5-8 lbs.
4. A heavier carrier dog spring is used to ensure when the carrier elevates the shell, it will be held there until the bolt can push it into the chamber. This ensures positive feeding when using heavier payload rounds.
5. Police shotguns do not have an ISS (Integrated Safety System) which is a locking mechanism on the safety of commercial shotguns. This type of locking mechanism can cause delay to an officer who needs the weapon but does not have the appropriate key.
6. LE shotguns have the standard, proven, cross bolt safety.
7. The fore-end on the Express model is longer and not compatible with many police shotgun vehicle racks.
8. The Express model will not allow for the addition of an extension tube without physical modification to the tube and barrel, which can nullify the warranty.
9. The Express model utilizes a synthetic trigger housing while the Police models use a compressed metal housing.
10. The Police shotgun barrel is locked down with a “ball detent” system in conjunction with the magazine cap vs. a lesser grade “synthetic magazine spring retainer” lock down as used on the Express system.
11. Police shotguns use machined ejectors and extractors, as opposed to powdered metal cast (PMC) which are utilized on the Express models.

Our Express models are not holding up. Why anyone would sell it as a duty weapon is a sign of the times.

From my experience, some of the above, although from the Remington LE web site, is outdated. The last dozen or so 870P models that I have examined all have the polymer trigger housing. The polymer housing seems as durable as the older alloy housing. Also, the ISS is gone from new commercial (Express and Wingmaster) guns due to consumer complaints.

The biggest issues with the Express, in my experience, are the dimples in the magazine tube, the cost-reduced magazine cap retention, and the thin matte blued finish does a great job of trapping fluids. The dimples make adding an extension a PITA, and the Express magazine cap retention just is not as good as the old lock. If there is no oil or grease in that finish, moisture and oxygen will get to the steel and rust it. The Express, after the first thousand rounds, is as smooth as an old Wingmaster.

I have had to re-stake shell latches (usually the left) on used guns, mostly from people who do not assemble the gun properly. Only one ejector broke, and it had to go back to Ilion.

My personal practice, which is not suitable for LE agency practice, is to buy every Wingmaster with a 2-3/4" chamber that I can find for less than $250. With a little bit of work (usually barrel length changes and choking) and some part swaps (usually the stock, forend, springs), I get a really nice shotgun for less than half of what Remington gets for a new 870P or Wingmaster. Everyone in my immediate family has a pair -- or more -- of 870s that we shoot regularly.

One of the 870s. Note the shortened vent barrel with a new front bead. The new barrel length is 18.5". This one is mine, and I did not opt for the magazine tube extension as the gun swings much better without it.

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h229/farscott/870_Wingmaster_Police_01_zps0e260a49.jpg (http://s65.photobucket.com/user/farscott/media/870_Wingmaster_Police_01_zps0e260a49.jpg.html)

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h229/farscott/870_Wingmaster_Police_03_zpsc39de2ed.jpg (http://s65.photobucket.com/user/farscott/media/870_Wingmaster_Police_03_zpsc39de2ed.jpg.html)