Glock Vs Beretta DA/SA For added peace of mind with kids at home.....

[azerious]

Ok. This thread can go bad fast, but let me state UP FRONT, I understand if a child gets a hold of a gun unsupervised, whether it is striker, DA/SA, SAO, etc, You have already failed. I do like safe's, but when i'm at work I like my wife having a pistol in a high place ready to go. Not behind combo's and locks guns that are not chambered. My choice, a whole thread can be on that alone.

That out of the way. I work in healthcare, and am on our hospitals Trauma team, and work predominantly in Critical Care. Recently, or a while ago:cool:, we had a young child (5yo-9yo range, wont say due to HIPAA) come in with a gunshot wound to the head. He was in a room with two other kids. The youngest kid in the room got a hold of a pistol of a visiting relative at the house. This child was under 5yo. He then managed to shoot the other child in the head.

This shook the hell out of me as I have two little ones at home. I have taken the oldest shooting and she knows they are tools, and is very responsible etc etc. Youngest still too young. My main pistols are ALL glocks.

My question is, Does having a pistol like a DA/SA Beretta 92/px4 give you a "safer" environment granted you've done EVERYTHING you can to raise a responsible child with proper gun knowledge. In alot of situations the light trigger on a glock seems to contribute to the ease in which small children can make it go bang. Whereas, Theoretically, a heavy DA pull could have prevented it. At this point I would like you to re-read the first sentence in this thread;).

After this incident I contemplated switching out all my glocks for DA/SA berettas or similar, and just want to make sure I'm not losing it. I do think it would give me a peace of mind, but doubtful on actually physical safety improvement. It would help me out on the AIWB side of things regardless.

Or maybe i'm trying to justify switching to Berettas just because I happen to like them:confused:

I appreciate all responses and thanks for the time to read this.

-Az

[Chuck Haggard]

When a kid can't get the trigger to move with their trigger finger they often then try to pull the trigger with their thumb. This results in a self inflicted GSW. which in kids tends to be fatal.

I wouldn't count on DA tiggers being safer.

[JHC]

Not one bit IMO. If the longer trigger pull or safety is all one is counting on, that's a very slim reed. Safety off, cock the hammer, presto chango.

Get into rigid Condition 3 for anything or magazine safeties with magazines separated and this might be starting to edge towards some margin for error. Might not be the total answer but could be one of the layers.

[JAD]

If I didn't feel really good about the ability of my gunsafes to defeat my boy -- which I will not, in about a year -- I would go to disassembly on down guns. Layers are good. I have also greatly reduced the number of guns I keep in the house (vs. secure offsite storage) to limit the chance that I'll be lax with one.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

There are videos and tests of little kids pulling DA triggers. They can do it. They can rack slides of guns when little by leaning the edge of the gun on a table and using their body weight.

They can find guns in high places. Some kids have been asked where the gun is at, when the parents swear the kids don't know - but they do.

They also don't listen to instructions. Some patriarchs say that they taught the kid never to touch the gun. Some do.

They can also open child proof caps with ease.

I'm afraid there is no answer except locks or on your person.

[GJM]

Sounds like you want to buy a Beretta, go ahead!

I would be curious if the Beretta was left with the thumb safety on, what percentage of kids would figure out how to get it off safe and fire it?

[azerious]

Sounds like you want to buy a Beretta, go ahead!

I would be curious if the Beretta was left with the thumb safety on, what percentage of kids would figure out how to get it off safe and fire it?


While I understand that nothing is child proof. I'm really trying to see if having a DA/SA gun WITH A slide safety engaged at home, In a holster, gives you a small amount of extra "layers" of security than a glock in a holster in same setup.

[JTQ]

I think a gun with a safety is worth some small amount of time, but not a lot, in a situation like this. Could it save you or your kid if you were in the same room and somehow were distracted for a short period of time, by say the phone, somebody at the door, or a tea pot whistling, and your kid somehow was able to grab your gun, maybe. If you noticed the situation immediately, the kid could make an effort with the gun in a "safe" condition, and you may have time to get it out of his hands before he figures out how to disengage the safety and make it work. I suspect most kids within the age range you listed could figure out just about any handgun safety or double action trigger pull in less than a minute.

[Wendell]

On-body, or in a safe, is the only responsible way to do it (until such time as everyone in your home can be trusted to do only the right thing).

You're going to have to talk with your wife about your concerns.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwJjyD1-ymA

[5pins]

I’m sorry but a small child comes to your hospital with a gunshot wound to the head and your first thought is not to lock up your guns but get a different gun in the hope that it will be harder for a kid to shoot himself?

I dint get that at all. High places don’t stop kids from getting guns. There are a lot of quick access safes out there.

[Chuck Haggard]

Having been to the call with the 3 year old on the floor with a .380 bullet through his head, and having raised two girls, this is not an academic discussion for me.

On your person or locked up is the only safe bets.

[azerious]

I’m sorry but a small child comes to your hospital with a gunshot wound to the head and your first thought is not to lock up your guns but get a different gun in the hope that it will be harder for a kid to shoot himself?

I dint get that at all. High places don’t stop kids from getting guns. There are a lot of quick access safes out there.


Having been to the call with the 3 year old on the floor with a .380 bullet through his head, and having raised two girls, this is not an academic discussion for me.

On your person or locked up is the only safe bets.



Both very good points. Remember I was not asking if a beretta was a SOLUTION. Only if it would help.

I'm also looking at a GunVault MiniVault for $80 locally at the moment for my wife.


http://i61.tinypic.com/oj2ps8.jpg

[Jeep]

While I understand that nothing is child proof. I'm really trying to see if having a DA/SA gun WITH A slide safety engaged at home, In a holster, gives you a small amount of extra "layers" of security than a glock in a holster in same setup.

I think that a Beretta does give you at least two extra layers of safety (the DA pull and the safety itself) but even combined they aren't enough. Get a quick access safe.

[JAD]

I like my biometric safe. I will start keeping the backup keys in a safe deposit box shortly. If I have a key, he has a key.

[Mitch]

I agree with the general sentiment here. If you want a beretta go nuts, but it wouldn't make me feel any safer than a glock with what you're describing. I'd find a way for your wife to have the gun on her at home, or lock it up completely. Anywhere in the middle is playing with fire.

[Chuck Whitlock]

I would be curious if the Beretta was left with the thumb safety on, what percentage of kids would figure out how to get it off safe and fire it?

My boys could've detonated a bowling ball if you left them alone with it long enough.



On your person or locked up is the only safe bets.

^^^^
So much this!!!

[JHC]

Sounds like you want to buy a Beretta, go ahead!

I would be curious if the Beretta was left with the thumb safety on, what percentage of kids would figure out how to get it off safe and fire it?

Probably no more than single digits. Not worth it to leave them off body loaded.

[23JAZ]

While I understand that nothing is child proof. I'm really trying to see if having a DA/SA gun WITH A slide safety engaged at home, In a holster, gives you a small amount of extra "layers" of security than a glock in a holster in same setup.

No nothing provides the security you need except a safe period. I have to boys ages 2 and 4 and although I doubt they could rack the slide on my G19 I don't want to find out. There are hundreds of quick access safes out there you can mount anywhere and you and your wife can have access to a gun in seconds. Now if seconds is too long for you carry your gun on you at all times. There is no convenience worth the life of my kids or one of there friends.

I would suggest looking at a safe like the new RFID safe from Hornady and have you and your wife wear the bracelets at all times. Heck buy 2 or 3 and keep them all over the house. Do a google search for 60 Minutes Kids and Guns and watch that episode it will change your outlook on this subject. Glock, Sig, DA/SA, striker fired, there's a reason they all come with gun locks. A holster, a safety, an empty chamber, and a prayer is not enough.

[Kyle Reese]

This might be worth checking out.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxEP7U7cp5U

Available here (http://www.amazon.com/GunBox-Biometric-Hand-Gun-Safe/dp/B00KC9LERC/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1409008250&sr=8-3&keywords=Gun+Box)

[Trooper224]

Guns in the home should be locked up. There are many small night stand sized lock boxes that can be accessed quickly, there's no excuse for a weapon left unsecured. If you're living in an area where the chances of you or your wife needing instant access to a weapon are greater than the probability of an accident involving children, well, either keep it on your person at all times or move out of Mogadishu. Leaving weapons unloaded, relying on safeties, etc. are placebos that will fail you. Children are more ingenious than we give them credit for and they *will* figure out a way to defeat your best intentions. Lock it up or risk being that guy in the emergency room with a dead child.

[JustOneGun]

There are some threads on here that discuss wearing the pistol all day at home versus locking it up. It always seemed like a nobrainer to spend the time and effort to get comfortable in order to wear it all the time. Thinking of running to a gun off my body when the door is kicked in, always reminded me of the female actress in high heels running from the monster in cheap Hollywood horror flicks. You know when they keep falling down over and over. That would be me.
Now, if you are willing to change pistol platforms for a perceive safety benefit why not just put the time into wearing it all day? Then when thinking of your child and their friends actually shooting each other? Wow, I think it is a real nobrainer.
If we combine the two ideas, door kicked in with kids in the house or yard? Getting to that safe while dealing with kids or getting to the safe and then dealing with bad guy who is holding my kid, seems a bit of a stretch. Having the gun on to protect them from the bad guy and themselves is a must. If the spouse won't wear the gun then lock it up as everyone says. Most people survive home invasions and such. As Chuck said, most kids don't survive self inflicted gunshot wounds.

[GardoneVT]

No nothing provides the security you need except a safe period. I have to boys ages 2 and 4 and although I doubt they could rack the slide on my G19 I don't want to find out. There are hundreds of quick access safes out there you can mount anywhere and you and your wife can have access to a gun in seconds. Now if seconds is too long for you carry your gun on you at all times. There is no convenience worth the life of my kids or one of there friends.

I would suggest looking at a safe like the new RFID safe from Hornady and have you and your wife wear the bracelets at all times. Heck buy 2 or 3 and keep them all over the house. Do a google search for 60 Minutes Kids and Guns and watch that episode it will change your outlook on this subject. Glock, Sig, DA/SA, striker fired, there's a reason they all come with gun locks. A holster, a safety, an empty chamber, and a prayer is not enough.

While safes are a good step to take,I wouldn't rely on them alone .I say that because no matter the construction of the safe, if your kid is smart enough to know the basics about guns they're smart enough to break into it without you knowing. Growing up I made it a mischievous mission in life to know about and access every hiding place and safe in the house;and the time gap between the end of school and my parents arrival meant there was plenty of time daily for me to find and open prohibited places. Every thing under my family roof with a lock was long since compromised before I made it to middle school.

Back then there wasn't Google, either . Between that resource and the advanced knowledge kids have of electronics nowadays, I'll bet a lot of parents are locking their guns and other valuables up unawares that their kids know them better than they do.

IMO, the only way to secure a weapon around children is to disassemble it and keep part of it with you throughout the day. If one has a Glock, taking it apart and carrying the slide or barrel denies children access to a functioning gun when they crack the safe. I would suggest the frame, but that's legally considered the gun and thus can result in legal issues. For long arms I'd take the bolt or firing pin with me ,and have used that approach when I lived with roommates in college who were poor judges of character.

[LHS]

I'm a big believer in layered, redundant defenses. My guns are either locked in a serious safe (not one of the little quick-access safes that a toddler can open with a good bounce), or on my person. I also teach my son to never touch a firearm without my direct and immediate permission. I suppose that a DA gun with a manual safety would be an additional layer of protection, but to me, it would be very very miniscule compared to the first two. It certainly shouldn't be relied upon. I have a friend who bought an HK P7 because he figured his kid couldn't work the squeeze-cocker and fire the gun. I showed him how a kid could lean onto the frontstrap with the gun on the edge of a table and activate the trigger. Guess where the muzzle's pointing at that time. I saw my son do the same thing with a Nerf gun before he was strong enough to work the action in the normal method. I scolded him for violating Rule 2, and it took. When I was a kid, mechanical devices fascinated me, and I would fiddle with every knob, lever and switch on anything I could get my hands on. A DA/SA gun with a manual safety would have simply offered more cool things to play with.

When I was growing up, there were loaded guns all over the house. The only thing that kept me from becoming a statistic was a combination of education regarding the dangers of firearms and the fear of god should my dad ever catch me messing with them. But there were no physical barriers, and now, as a parent, that bothers me. That's why I don't rely on either training or physical barriers alone, but rather the combination of the two. We frequently say "Two is one and one is none" with regards to guns. I believe it when it comes to securing them as well.

[Chuck Haggard]

The safety on the gun thing can be an advantage, when you are talking about gun grabs, not the same thing as a kid fiddling with the gun.

I started gun proofing my daughters very early, like 4 and 5 years old. Raising them right is important.

[1986s4]

The safety on the gun thing can be an advantage, when you are talking about gun grabs, not the same thing as a kid fiddling with the gun.

I started gun proofing my daughters very early, like 4 and 5 years old. Raising them right is important.

Agree! Many are fond of saying the best safety is between the ears. True for us and true for our children. I trained my children the same way. I also kept the ammo and pistol separate. Slower yes, but it gave me some peace of mind.

[Suvorov]

It's a good question and one I often think about. I have a 1 and 3 year old boy at home and travel or a living meaning wife is alone at home about half the time. It just so happens that the Beretta 92 is my home defense pistol and this is in part (because I also shoot HKs and Sigs) because of the safety and DA/SA action. While I agree with the experts here that a DA trigger and a mechanical safety are no great barrier to a kid, they do provide one more small layer. The down side of that may very well be a harder gun for you and your wife to shoot.

As of now my Beretta sits in a mini gun vault like you showed under the bed, loaded, with the manual safety engaged. I have recently been giving strong thought to leaving it unchambered with a loaded magazine inserted but I have concerns about my wife being able to rack the slide under stress. I have also been considering moving the safe to a location less accessible to my toddlers but the bedroom arrangement makes that a little too far away from the bed for my comfort.

I really think a locking safe is a must if you are going to keep a gun off body for home protection and have little ones. Additional safety features of the gun only add marginal layers of safety.

On the education side I have tried to take as much mystery out of guns for my 3 year old but he is really too immature to know what they really do. I have told him to never touch them without daddy and he watches the Eddie Eagle video periodically but this is just laying the foundation as I'm sure it hasn't sunk in yet.

Others here have mentioned layers of protection. In aviation we look at accidents as a chain of events that lead to tragedy and if you can break just one link in the chain, you can prevent the accident. So the more links to the chain (or more layers) the more chance a link is broken. The down side is that too many layers or links and you are no longer able to use the gun for self defense. That is where you as a parent and responsible gun owner come in.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Psych hat on. While education is wonderful and should be done and there are incidents of young ones using a firearm for brave instances of self-defense, it is sometimes the case that parents are clueless as to the processes and social situations that their children are engaged in. We find many parents are in dark about bullying, sexuality, antisocial behavior, substance abuse, peer groups and the like. A really good seeming kid can get involved in a rapidly evolving web of evil or misbehavior. That makes access to the gun problematic. Such intense pressures driven by hormones and the inability of their frontal cortex to inhibit impulses is a risk. Thus, kids can understand and say the right thing - called a system 2 response, but be driven to do something back by an impulsive, emotional and quick subcortical system - called system 1. When you get past 25, System 2 can control 1 (at least in some).

Thus, I caution against access based strictly on education and parental pronouncements controlling misuse. You really have to know you kids deeply and many don't. They think they do.

Raising kids right is sometimes not enough to control some weird genetic quirk in behavior.

A case in point (not that one case is conclusive). An honor student, wonderful kid, etc. graduates high school. Pillar of the youth community. His father is a car nut and has some Chevy Nova 496 that he worships. He doesn't let the kid drive it. After graduation, the kid asks to take a drive. Dad says - just round the block. The kid picks up some friends (told not to) and disappears. He is later found wrapped around a tree, hit it at 100 mph.

Thus, I err on the side of caution. I can quote cases where teenagers have defended the homestead. Near Bastrop after the forest fires, a 17 year female was left to watch the family home while the adults went to get stuff. A bunch of looters came and she chased them off with a handgun. They doubted she would shoot and mocked her but her demeanor convinced them otherwise.

Tough call then - but one should know the risks of kids with access.

[Tom Duffy]

I thought about this quite a bit. Though my kids are adults now, I still have a responsibility for keeping the guns safe. I own 5 handguns. Everyone is locked in an individual gun vault. My nightstand gun is a semiauto, with a light, locked in a gunvault, loaded, but with an empty chamber. At night I unlock the gun to make it more quickly accessible but would only chamber a round if I needed the gun. The gunvault gets relocked before I get out of bed in the morning. I don't think a small child would be able to rack the slide in any case and I can't conceive of a case where I don't have a second to rack the slide myself. Besides, a 500 lumen light in the eyes is a pretty good weapon, in and of itself.

[Chuck Haggard]

Thus, I caution against access based strictly on education and parental pronouncements controlling misuse. You really have to know you kids deeply and many don't. They think they do.

Raising kids right is sometimes not enough to control some weird genetic quirk in behavior.

A case in point (not that one case is conclusive). An honor student, wonderful kid, etc. graduates high school. Pillar of the youth community. His father is a car nut and has some Chevy Nova 496 that he worships. He doesn't let the kid drive it. After graduation, the kid asks to take a drive. Dad says - just round the block. The kid picks up some friends (told not to) and disappears. He is later found wrapped around a tree, hit it at 100 mph.

Thus, I err on the side of caution. I can quote cases where teenagers have defended the homestead. Near Bastrop after the forest fires, a 17 year female was left to watch the family home while the adults went to get stuff. A bunch of looters came and she chased them off with a handgun. They doubted she would shoot and mocked her but her demeanor convinced them otherwise.

Tough call then - but one should know the risks of kids with access.


I would submit that dude did exactly the wrong thing with the car. The kid should have been coached on driving it, and been allowed to do so with dad as a co-pilot. That's exactly what I did with my girls where it came to guns, and cars. Take the mystery and "cool" out of it, show the downside of messing up.

Having run off an attempted agg. burglar at the back door, when I was 12 years old, via display of my break barrel H&R, I might be a bit biased.

[LSP972]

Take the mystery and "cool" out of it, show the downside of messing up.

.


This^... EXACTLY this. Did the same with my kids/grandkids. Show/tell/shoot, let them handle under supervision any time they ask. If you do this right, and they aren't little heathen termites (despite your best efforts to raise them properly), it goes a long way to helping avoid a disaster.

What you gotta watch out for more, IMO, is their pals who come to visit/play. I have banned more than one little savage from my house because of this, or being ill-mannered, or simply a case of the need for retroactive birth control.

Of course, even if you do trust your chirruns to be responsible, you still need to keep your iron secured. Many jurisdictions have specific laws on the books holding YOU responsible if a kid gets his hands on a firearm.

.

[Chuck Haggard]

I'll add that regardless of kids I think gun owners are kitten heads if they don't lock up unattended guns.

We had a dude locally go out of town on vacation for two weeks, guns all over the house, in clostes, etc. He came back to find he was missing $46,000 worth of guns. That we now have stuff like AR10s on the street is so freakin cool.

Yes, I know bad guys will get guns one way or the other, however we should be doing what we can to not be the suppliers.

[azerious]

All great points well received guys.

Just to reiterate, I never ruled out a quick access safe, just in between. That is now of the past and i'm saving for a quick access. Although I feel a Beretta would add more layers, it's not worth the effort, time, and money to do a platform change at the moment.

[Trooper224]

This^... EXACTLY this. Did the same with my kids/grandkids. Show/tell/shoot, let them handle under supervision any time they ask. If you do this right, and they aren't little heathen termites (despite your best efforts to raise them properly), it goes a long way to helping avoid a disaster.

What you gotta watch out for more, IMO, is their pals who come to visit/play. I have banned more than one little savage from my house because of this, or being ill-mannered, or simply a case of the need for retroactive birth control.

Of course, even if you do trust your chirruns to be responsible, you still need to keep your iron secured. Many jurisdictions have specific laws on the books holding YOU responsible if a kid gets his hands on a firearm.

.

I did the same thing with my three children who are now adults and it served me well. When they were going through their adolescent years my biggest concern was the herd mentality. Now matter how good your child is, they all become abject morons when they're among a group of their peers. It doesn't take much for one to say,"wouldn't it be cool if.." then tragedy occurs. As Regan said, "Trust but verify". Education is important, but assuming they'll screw up eventually is that final component of that layered defense everyone keeps talking about.

[JonInWA]

The biometric safe, as others have mentioned, provides a good bridge between safety and accessibility. I don't think that changing the platform will serve many constructive purposes; while a DA/SA like a Beretta 92 might be harder to activate the trigger than a Glock, I think that the likelihood is higher that your offspring and/or his/her little pals will go on their hide-and-go-seek/search and destroy mission with ANY handgun when adult supervision isn't around, or likely to be around, and they have plenty of time to figure things out, with the expectantly disastrous results.

However, ANOTHER consideration possibly worthy of consideration is your SPOUSE'S familiarity with firearms. If he/she isn't too dialed in, there may well be a derivative advantage of having a SA/SA or DAO pistol as the one in the safe-protection against an adrenaline-fueled hasty grab, and/or inadvertent trigger finger tensing while holding the pistol. One of the reasons that the nightstand gun that I have set aside to potentially hand over to my wife is likely to be my Beretta 92D (DAO), Ruger P89 (DA/SA with a long DA triggerpull), or Ruger Security Six revolver. In a tanker-style shoulder holster in the nightstand is my primary home defense gun, a Glock G19 with Trijicon night sights. (I contend that one of the absolute best, and most pertinent use of a shoulder holster is for home defense, as it provides a speedily donned holster that provides security and storage as necessary-most jammy bottoms/boxer shorts, etc aren't even vaguely secure enough to secure the weight of a handgun, with or without a holster).

Best, Jon

[Suvorov]

In a tanker-style shoulder holster in the nightstand is my primary home defense gun, a Glock G19 with Trijicon night sights. (I contend that one of the absolute best, and most pertinent use of a shoulder holster is for home defense, as it provides a speedily donned holster that provides security and storage as necessary-most jammy bottoms/boxer shorts, etc aren't even vaguely secure enough to secure the weight of a handgun, with or without a holster).

Best, Jon

An amazingly good idea!

How many here use biometric safes as opposed to "finger button" combo safes? I have a biometric document safe which is finicky at best and my experiences with it led me to go the route of a combo safe. Are the biometric gun vaults more reliable?

[s0nspark]

An amazingly good idea!

How many here use biometric safes as opposed to "finger button" combo safes? I have a biometric document safe which is finicky at best and my experiences with it led me to go the route of a combo safe. Are the biometric gun vaults more reliable?

Mine are the finger button type - simplex locks are much easier than combination locks IMO.

[TumblinDown]

Mine are the finger button type - simplex locks are much easier than combination locks IMO.

+1 First, biometrics do not have the same level of reliability. Second, I don't want anything that requires a battery, Mr. Murphy. KISS just works.

[Josh Runkle]

A $200 quick access safe is cheaper than a $500 new gun. If you are worried about quick access safe being reliable, two separate quick access safes at $200 each are still cheaper than a new gun for $500. I'm sure a kid could eventually figure out how to access a safe, however, I'm sure it is far harder for a child to acquire this information than it is for a kid to find the random hiding spot and use the firearm.

[David Armstrong]

For me, C3 is the answer and even then it is not a good answer. I know you didn't want that as an option, but when it comes to layers of safety things like heavier triggers and safeties are so easy to defeat it is a non-issue to me. I learned my lesson with a 6-year old nephew, who had found my Walther PPK, taken the safety off, and was vigorously pulling the trigger with two fingers while yelling "bang bang." Fortunately the gun was unloaded. I didn't think much about it because, as we all know, the DA pull on a PPK is rather atrocious and the safety was on and what 6-year old would figure all that out, right? Well, this one did. So now if it is not on my person when a child is in the house it is in a safe and the chamber is empty at a minimum.