How to bench rest shoot at 25 & 50 yards?

[MSparks909]

Did a search and nothing came up. What is the best way to bench rest shoot a handgun for accuracy/load testing at 25 and 50 yards? I went to the range last week and attempted to bench my 1911 to check POA/POI with the new sights I installed. Well...that was a frustrating experience. Returned sporadic 5-6" groups at best. I was resting the pistol and my arms on top of my MidwayUSA range bag. The shots felt clean when I broke them but I couldn't begin to quantify what I shot at 25 yards to be a "group." I actually shot a better group offhand at 25 compared to benching the gun.

So how do you guys bench rest your pistols? Rest the dust cover/rail on a sandbag? Rest the gun's magazine directly on the bench? Any other tips/suggestions would be appreciated.

[ASH556]

Did a search and nothing came up. What is the best way to bench rest shoot a handgun for accuracy/load testing at 25 and 50 yards? I went to the range last week and attempted to bench my 1911 to check POA/POI with the new sights I installed. Well...that was a frustrating experience. Returned sporadic 5-6" groups at best. I was resting the pistol and my arms on top of my MidwayUSA range bag. The shots felt clean when I broke them but I couldn't begin to quantify what I shot at 25 yards to be a "group." I actually shot a better group offhand at 25 compared to benching the gun.

So how do you guys bench rest your pistols? Rest the dust cover/rail on a sandbag? Rest the gun's magazine directly on the bench? Any other tips/suggestions would be appreciated.

Looking forward to answers as I have the same problem.

[Malamute]

I am also curious if theres a formal, correct way. As I understand it, the gun shouldnt touch anything. Beyond that, I don't know. When I try for best accuracy, its over the hood of my truck, body against the truck, arms and hands supported on the hood by a rolled blanket. With that method I've shot a 6" group @ 100 yards with a 6" 29, and under that with a Colt Ace kit on a National Match Colt frame (I dont recall exactly but I'm thinking in the 4 1/2" group range for 10 shots). Without a formal bench rest, kneeling and sitting can often give good results.

The best shooting I've done was with younger eyes. I don't know if I'm saying it correctly, but my vision used to be 40/20. The eye doc said I could see at 40 feet what most could see at 20 feet. It's closer to 20/25 now I think, at least in the right eye.

One thing to use for deliberate fire is the Merit eyepiece that attaches to your shooting glasses. It allows a sharp focus of the sight picture when adjusted.

[JV_]

I rest my forearms on something like a table. I do not rest the gun. I also make sure the gun doesn't touch anything during recoil, because it can cause thrown shots.

[Jay Cunningham]

I find this interesting because I too have had recent experience where I was able to consistently shoot better groups offhand at 25 and 50 yards than I did "off the bench". I thought I knew how to do it... but apparently not.

However, a buddy of mine told me about something he'd picked up from a local club PPC whiz - standing, support hand braced did in fact turn in some good results for me. Basically you brace the back of your support hand off of a post or pole. YMMV, naturally.

[JHC]

I can always shoot the smallest groups with a pistol using a rest. I don't try it very often but usually a few times with a new pistol when I'm curious as to its level of mechanical precision. When I've shot stupid good groups; it's been rested. This one was with my elder son's new at the time Gen 4 G17 when the first batch of FDE guns came out. It's been so long I don't recall if that flyer was called or not. https://www.flickr.com/photos/78036189@N07/7782223568/

My method has been to put the large backpack I use as a range bag on the bench and dig the heels of my hands, wrist and lower forearms into the pack for stability, and I'm seated at benchrest table.

[imp1295]

I've tried this:
http://www.chuckhawks.com/shooting_handgun_bench_rest.htm

With results good enough to determine sight alignment etc.

[Malamute]

What distance was that?

Can we conclude that the FDE guns are the match guns and the black ones are the "street" guns :D

[mizer67]

I've had the best luck using the base plate of the magazine as a monopod and resting the frame on a sandbag or rest. That way, you have at least two solid points of contact. This works particularly well with guns like CZ's that have relatively flat baseplates and angles, less so with a Glock due to the grip angle. Your (eye) position behind the gun makes a difference as well.

[JHC]

What distance was that?

Can we conclude that the FDE guns are the match guns and the black ones are the "street" guns :D

It's written on the target. 25 yards, rested, Speer Lawman 124 gr. Gen 4 Glocks in our experience are friggin precise. They lack a 3 lb SA trigger however. ;)

This one was bought in March 2010. It's got about 11K rds on it, still running the original unmarked .40 weight RSA to see how far it goes. It's still TIGHT. https://www.flickr.com/photos/78036189@N07/7523718476/


This OD Gen 3 is older, from their first run of OD frames whenever that was. Gen 3's in my experience are pretty good. Gen 4's tighter. Again all these are rested with good ammo. https://www.flickr.com/photos/78036189@N07/7523707470/in/photostream/

[JHC]

I've had the best luck using the base plate of the magazine as a monopod and resting the frame on a sandbag or rest. That way, you have at least two solid points of contact. This works particularly well with guns like CZ's that have relatively flat baseplates and angles, less so with a Glock due to the grip angle. Your (eye) position behind the gun makes a difference as well.

I've had some luck with that with a 1911. Not sure about polymer frames. And idea on that?

[mizer67]

I've had some luck with that with a 1911. Not sure about polymer frames. And idea on that?

I've had less success recently with a VP9 using that same technique. Good enough to shoot 2.0-2.5" groups, but not below that, with the stock sights. I know it's capable of more.

If I was really serious about chasing the best groups though I'd need to switch sights on most all of my guns, or run RMRs.

[tomr]

I use one of these - http://protektormodel.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=7 First saw it in a pic of test shooters at Wilson Combat. I place this bag on top of a piece of 4x4 to elevate my hands and pistol above the bench. I choose a chair that enables me to sit and lay both arms on the bench with elbows almost as fully extended as if shooting 2 hands standing - Isosceles, (had to look up spelling). The dust cover of the pistol is on the crotch of the bag. The bag is filled with sand but not packed real hard. The butt of the pistol is up off the bench. In my experience the mono pad, butt resting on bench technique, doesn't work so well as the gun really wants to bounce up and away from the bench. There is a definite learnable technique involved, that requires the usual staring at the front sight and really concentrating on the trigger - stuff we're supposed to do anyway, but the rest allows one to concentrate and see/feel movement, after a bit of practice. Everybody says "course my gun would do better in a ransom rest" But nobody has one. So thats a big assumption. A fellow Bullseye shooter (he's good - Im not) and I had access to a Ransom early this summer. After several trials, including new inserts we gave up. Bill Riehl who uses one successfully has explained there is a real technique to setting those up including custom molded inserts to the particular pistol being used. They are not the end all and be all. Actually makes sense when you think about as a one size, lowish priced mechanism, that can successfully control tiny movement in a myriad of pistols and revolvers would be an amazing invention. I also suspect that polymer framed pistols don't do so well in the Ransom as the frames are bendable and flexible. After struggling with the Ransom and not getting useable results. We knuckled down and really tried, concentrated, paid attention to the sandbag and evolved a technique thats kinda worked. have been able to get red dot sighted Bullseye 1911s to shoot 1" aggregates at 25 and a little over 2" at 50 yards. Have also formed an impression that the relationship of sights to the target is important. This seems counter intuitive as we're told not to look at the target. But I think with the rest, with care, you can - not without impunity, but with care.... The red dot sight - ours are 3.5s, a black bullseye, (NRA B6) and a good pair of glasses really helps. Have not been able to repeat those groups (with guns guaranteed to shoot 1" @25, etc) but set up with iron sights - even with Dr. Wong's magical iron sight shooting glasses. Im an old fart. I notice to, that after shooting 5 or 6 groups testing a pistol/load combo and really concentrating, that when I stand up and shoot 2 handed off hand with the same combo, I get better groups, then if I just started shooting standing cold. This of course works till my brain wakes up and starts reacting to recoil, noise, muzzle flash....

[butler coach]

Instead of a bench try using a set of shooting sticks. (Crossed sticks) you can make a cheap set for a few bucks. I shoot my .44 's and all our single shot pistols better off the sticks then the bench. I pti the sticks about mid front grip in the contenders. And as close to the cylinders on the revolvers. Many white tail deer didn't like that combo.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jay Cunningham]

Instead of a bench try using a set of shooting sticks. (Crossed sticks) you can make a cheap set for a few bucks. I shoot my .44 's and all our single shot pistols better off the sticks then the bench. I pti the sticks about mid front grip in the contenders. And as close to the cylinders on the revolvers. Many white tail deer didn't like that combo.

Hmm, that's interesting. Have you ever shot a semi-auto this way?

[MSparks909]

Thanks for the responses thus far! I'm going to try some of the above techniques this Sunday. Some of you are turning in serious groups! JHC that group with the 17, flier and all, is VERY impressive. So is that 6" group @ 100 Malamute. I'm gonna bring several NRA B8s and try different techniques with my Gen 3 17 and Speer 124+Ps. If I can't get good groups using the above techniques I'll probably order that $26 rest and give it a go, and/or try shooting sticks.

[okie john]

I'm also having trouble getting good groups from the bench. I think my problem is that the bench on our range is too low in relation to the height of the stools, which forces me to look through the top of my glasses, which keeps me from seeing the sights clearly. I'm going shooting tomorrow, so I'll experiment with different setups and let you know how it goes.


Okie John

[Malamute]

John, what you just said makes sense. I hadn't thought of it in relation to pistol shooting before though. In bench shooting rifles, many complain about the kick of more powerful rifles, but the way most people do it, they are too low and leaned way into it. Being able to sit with your back straight or nearly so helps in recoil management. It should help with pistol shooting also, in regards to a comfortable position as well as looking through the best part of your glasses (I don't wear glasses). When shooting off the hood of my truck, I'm not leaning much, and its pretty comfortable with a rest on the hood.

[tomr]

I'm also having trouble getting good groups from the bench. I think my problem is that the bench on our range is too low in relation to the height of the stools, which forces me to look through the top of my glasses, which keeps me from seeing the sights clearly. I'm going shooting tomorrow, so I'll experiment with different setups and let you know how it goes.


Okie John

Absolutely a problem. Some of this is trial and error. And its all personal, relative to your body size/height/arm length, eyesight and the bench setup - including chair height, stability and orientation. If I have multiple bulls on one target, Ill even go so far as to orient the sandbag, so that my arms and head are straight onto each bull. Holding your head in one place (comfortably) is a plus. I have an extreme astigmatism, so my issues may be different than some, but moving the head induces a kind of parallax error. Looking through the center of my lens is critical.

[JHC]

Absolutely a problem. Some of this is trial and error. And its all personal, relative to your body size/height/arm length, eyesight and the bench setup - including chair height, stability and orientation. If I have multiple bulls on one target, Ill even go so far as to orient the sandbag, so that my arms and head are straight onto each bull. Holding your head in one place (comfortably) is a plus. I have an extreme astigmatism, so my issues may be different than some, but moving the head induces a kind of parallax error. Looking through the center of my lens is critical.

Your points on vision is a big deal. Using monovision contact prescriptions the bullseye in this exercise is getting fuzzier and fuzzier while the front sight remains sharp. RDS is somewhere in my future.

AFAIK a black bullseye for a 6:00 hold is pretty much optimal for checking groups although holding 6:00 on a 3x5 has worked pretty well too. I'm not sure if it's just anecdotal because I haven't tried this that many times side by side with a B8 but I've had some inkling that the smaller rimfire rifle bullseyes give a pretty precise target to hold 6:00 on.

[mizer67]

Your points on vision is a big deal. Using monovision contact prescriptions the bullseye in this exercise is getting fuzzier and fuzzier while the front sight remains sharp. RDS is somewhere in my future.

AFAIK a black bullseye for a 6:00 hold is pretty much optimal for checking groups although holding 6:00 on a 3x5 has worked pretty well too. I'm not sure if it's just anecdotal because I haven't tried this that many times side by side with a B8 but I've had some inkling that the smaller rimfire rifle bullseyes give a pretty precise target to hold 6:00 on.

Exactly. You need a repeatable reference point to shoot groups at 25.

A 6:00 hold on a bullseye that is about the width of your front sight is near perfect. I actually prefer a square or diamond, but since I almost never bring my own targets, circular bulls work well too. Something like a B8 seems much too large with no reference point to shoot for. Aim small, miss small and all that....

[Malamute]

Your points on vision is a big deal. Using monovision contact prescriptions the bullseye in this exercise is getting fuzzier and fuzzier while the front sight remains sharp. RDS is somewhere in my future.

AFAIK a black bullseye for a 6:00 hold is pretty much optimal for checking groups although holding 6:00 on a 3x5 has worked pretty well too. I'm not sure if it's just anecdotal because I haven't tried this that many times side by side with a B8 but I've had some inkling that the smaller rimfire rifle bullseyes give a pretty precise target to hold 6:00 on.

The Merit attachment gives a greater depth of focus, it sharpens up all the sighting elements. Not practical for much beside range use, but can be very good in that regard to get the most out of your gun/loads. It reminds me of how my vision was a few years ago. If you can get that sort of advantage from your corrective lenses I can see how it would help tremendously.

I agree on 6:00 hold for sheer accuracy work. I think smaller targets also help with grouping. Some use a business card as a reference aiming point. I've used them or other small marks for rifle sight in. An 1 1/2" black spot works well for me as a pistol aiming point.

[JHC]

The Merit attachment gives a greater depth of focus, it sharpens up all the sighting elements. Not practical for much beside range use, but can be very good in that regard to get the most out of your gun/loads. It reminds me of how my vision was a few years ago. If you can get that sort of advantage from your corrective lenses I can see how it would help tremendously.

I agree on 6:00 hold for sheer accuracy work. I think smaller targets also help with grouping. Some use a business card as a reference aiming point. I've used them or other small marks for rifle sight in. An 1 1/2" black spot works well for me as a pistol aiming point.

I will read up on Merit. I'm still ok at normal pistol ranges but irons on rifles at 100 is about out of the question. A white paper dinner plate at 100 yds is nearly invisible to my dominant eye dialed in for a sharp front sight. And I've got a couple nice lever guns. :(

[tomr]

Dr. Wong's glasses, I mentioned above have the dominant/strong side eye lens focal length set to the front sight. The left, (in my case), is set for downrange vision, so you can walk around and do what needs to be done. Norman Wong is a former navy officer and Bullseye competitor, with an Optometry practice in south San Francisco. Here's a link to some pretty cool articles that help with understanding the issues - http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/nwongarts.html . These are merits on steroids. I use standard day to day glasses with the red dot, but switch to these for iron sights. I fear they would be of limited use in the hunting situations Malamute describes, though.

[Malamute]

I will read up on Merit. I'm still ok at normal pistol ranges but irons on rifles at 100 is about out of the question. A white paper dinner plate at 100 yds is nearly invisible to my dominant eye dialed in for a sharp front sight. And I've got a couple nice lever guns. :(

The Merit device is a small disc with an adjustable aperture, it looks like a camera lens how it opens and closes. It attaches to the shooting glasses with a small suction cup. You adjust it until the sights/target are sharpened up in focus. Its like magic to see the sights/target sharpen up.

My vision is still fairly decent overall, I can make out the 24" black plate at 300 yards and get a sight picture on it with a pistol. The Merit still sharpens up my vision for that sort of thing.

RE: lever guns, I'm becoming less bothered by scopes and other optical devices on them. Sure, they look great and traditional without them, but I also appreciate the advantage of decent glass, and am becoming more interested in dots, if I can get squared away from the med bills.

[1slow]

I believe it was Ross Seyfried who wrote about a British target, for iron sighted pistol, that is an upside down capital T.
The vertical bar is drawn such that it's width appears the same width as the front sight at the distance you are shooting.
The horizontal bar gives you a clear 6 o'clock hold point for correct elevation. The vertical bar gives you a clear hold point for left to right.
This works well for me.

[JHC]

Dr. Wong's glasses, I mentioned above have the dominant/strong side eye lens focal length set to the front sight. The left, (in my case), is set for downrange vision, so you can walk around and do what needs to be done. Norman Wong is a former navy officer and Bullseye competitor, with an Optometry practice in south San Francisco. Here's a link to some pretty cool articles that help with understanding the issues - http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/nwongarts.html . These are merits on steroids. I use standard day to day glasses with the red dot, but switch to these for iron sights. I fear they would be of limited use in the hunting situations Malamute describes, though.

Cool. I'm nearsighted and now 57. That's how I have my contact lens set up. Actual glasses are probably more clear than extended wear contacts however.

[JHC]

I believe it was Ross Seyfried who wrote about a British target, for iron sighted pistol, that is an upside down capital T.
The vertical bar is drawn such that it's width appears the same width as the front sight at the distance you are shooting.
The horizontal bar gives you a clear 6 o'clock hold point for correct elevation. The vertical bar gives you a clear hold point for left to right.
This works well for me.

I had only known that used with the crosshairs of a scope in rifle shooting. I'll have to try that with the pistol. [smacking my forehead]

[tomr]

I believe it was Ross Seyfried who wrote about a British target, for iron sighted pistol, that is an upside down capital T.
The vertical bar is drawn such that it's width appears the same width as the front sight at the distance you are shooting.
The horizontal bar gives you a clear 6 o'clock hold point for correct elevation. The vertical bar gives you a clear hold point for left to right.
This works well for me.

Cool, this is helpful.

With the red dot, (we use Ultra Dots, which have lots of illumination adjustment), "street" glasses, and adjusting brightness for range conditions gives a pretty sharp red circle. This fits nicely as an inner concentric circle to the B6/50 or B8/25 black scoring area. We use 4 repair centers in the corners of the full size targets to gain multiple aiming points and avoid a lot of walking back and forth, which might upset things. Thinking that the red dot takes up a bit too much real estate to be useful with a square or T aiming point.

Learning the value of a target aiming point that relates well to the sight system for the RDS, we've been noodling over what to do with irons. I get the use/value of the horizontal bar. Regarding the vertical, is it a black bar, that you superimpose the front sight on or is it a white stripe between two black bars and you loo for equal light bars like a front sight within the rear?

[1slow]

The vertical bar is black, both vertical and horizontal bars are black.
You do not hold on the vertical bar. You hold 6 o'clock on the horizontal bar. This give you a precise elevation index.

You align the sides of your front sight with the sides of the vertical bar while holding 6 0'clock on the horizontal bar. The front sight and the vertical bar should form a vertical straight line.
This is why you make the vertical bar thickness such that it matches the width of your front sight at the distance you will shoot the target. This gives you a precise left to right index.

Your front sight held at 6 0'clock on the horizontal bar turns the upside down T into + sign with your front sight making up the portion of the vertical bar below the horizontal bar.

[butler coach]

Hmm, that's interesting. Have you ever shot a semi-auto this way?

Only .22 semi autos. If I get out tomorrow I will give it a go with the glock.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LtDave]

I normally shoot groups off sandbags, with 2 side by side on the bench and 2 more stacked on top. This gives me the right height with the chairs and tables available at my range. I rest my hands firmly in the top bag, the butt of the gun or the mag may rest on the bag depending on the size of the gun. It doesn't seem to affect group size. My favorite bench rest target is a 5 spot archery target that has a white bullseye surrounded by dark blue rings. Works great for either a center or 6 o'clock hold. Also works well with .22 rifles at 50 yards.

[okie john]

OK, so I shot from a rest yesterday and today. I tried to re-create my upper-body position when I shoot offhand—head erect so I can see my sights, with shoulders, neck, and arms relaxed—but seated with my arms on the bench. I built a rest out of sandbags, then got into position and sat there for a few minutes watching the sights as I breathed and as my heart beat. Then I adjusted my position until my breath and heartbeat had no effect on the sights. My groups were not as small as I wanted them to be, but they were smaller than when I usually shoot from a rest, so learning continues.

As I was going through all of this, a bunch of stuff came flooding back to me from my days learning to shoot rifles from a rest. Most of it applies to shooting without a rest as well.

Don’t rest your chest on the bench—your sights will move with every breath and heartbeat.
Get into position, then dry fire a few rounds. If the sights move when the shot breaks, adjust your position and technique until they don’t.
You have to hold a state of intense concentration—Carlos Hathcock called it “being in the bubble”. It excludes input other than sights, trigger, and target. Ignore the random knuckleheads who want to chat, other shooters and their issues, etc. Obviously, you want to be in the bubble as you shoot, but I try to stay in the bubble as much as I can between strings. If I fall out, it’s all but impossible to get back in. For that reason, I prefer to shoot for accuracy when no one else is around, or when the people there are also serious shooters.
Call each shot, then check it in the spotting scope. Don’t shoot a five- or ten-shot string and then check your group. Intsead, verify that your hit matches your call for each shot. If it does, then any flyers are your fault and you’ll know then when you threw a shot and why. If it doesn't, then there’s either a mechanical issue with your gun, your ammo is causing problems, or your technique needs work.
Keep your heart rate low. You can raise it by eating and drinking, and by physical activity. To avoid the first, don't eat a big meal right before a range trip--a full stomach makes your heart pound, which makes your groups get bigger. I prefer to shoot a few hours after a very light breakfast, or to let a couple of hours pass after a meal. To avoid having physical activity raise your heart rate, wait a few minutes after you go downrange to change targets or lift anything heavy. When I’m actually shooting, I move like I’m underwater.
Avoid eye strain by using targets with a buff or cream-colored background. Classic bullseye targets are not on white paper because white is too bright, which tires the eyes. Also, between shots, look at something that’s at a different distance from you than your front sight. Don’t look at your smartphone between strings—the tiny type they use strains your eyes. And finally, don't fire all five or ten shots in a string at once. Rest the gun on the bench between shots to let your arms and shoulders relax. You’re going for pure accuracy, not realism.
Don’t wait all day for a surprise break. There’s a window for a good trigger press AND a good sight picture. After that, the sights start to swing in ever-increasing arcs. If you press the trigger before the sights are truly aligned, then you’ll throw the shot. If you wait too long, you’ll be tempted to snatch at the trigger on one of the increasingly rare occasions when the front sight speeds past the notch. I tested this with my timer and found that my best shots broke ~1.25 seconds after the buzzer at 25 yards, and ~1.75 seconds at 50 yards. If I go faster or slower, the groups open up.
Establish a routine. I put one round in the magazine, chamber it, and fire. The slide locks back, I set the gun down, and pick up the fired case. Then I walk to the spotting scope to check the hit. Then I walk back to the bench, put the fired case in the box with the others, and repeat until I’ve finished the string. As mentioned above, I move like I'm underwater, which helps preserve my concentration and focus, and keep my heart rate low. Also, the time it takes helps reduce eye strain. Using this routine, I shot this 50-yard offhand group today:


http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee68/okie_john/photo1_zps85ebeae9.jpg (http://s235.photobucket.com/user/okie_john/media/photo1_zps85ebeae9.jpg.html)
The extreme spread is three inches.


Okie John