How much time do you have "in the saddle?"

[beltjones]

There is a pretty common theory that it takes around 10,000 hours, or 10 years of doing something full-time, to achieve true mastery in anything.

So I thought it would be fun to look into how many hours I've put into pistol shooting. Now, I'm not counting the times I went plinking with my dad's Ruger Single Six, as much fun as that was. I'm only talking about time you've spent actually working at pistol shooting. I haven't calculated my hours yet, but here's the basic formula:

Class time: total actual hours of instruction.

+Teaching time: For those who do this regularly, take the average per week or month, annualize it in hours, and total it for the number of years you've been a serious shooter.

+Practice range time: Take the average per week (realistic, not hopeful or wishful numbers), annualize it in hours, and total it for the number of years you've been a serious shooter.

+Dryfire time: Take the average per week, annualize it in hours, and for the number of years you've been a serious shooter.

+Competition time: Take the number of stages per match, number of matches per month, and multiply it by 1 minute per stage. I figure one minute is fair, but I don't want to include the time you jib jab with buddies or paste targets or anything. Annualize it in hours for the number of years you've been a serious shooter.

=Total each of the above and post it here.

Oh, and the point is not to have a pissing contest. If you fudge the numbers you're only fooling yourself.

[beltjones]

Mine looks like 271.32 hours over two years. I thought it would be a lot more - maybe I need to re-evaluate it. It looks like I have a long time to go to get to 10,000 hours!

[DonovanM]

266 hours in 1 year and 9 months using your method.

I figured 20 minutes of dry fire every day, and I think that's conservative, even taking into account days taken off.

I think 1 minute per stage is conservative. While I'm physically at the range for a match, formulating my plan, studying how others shoot the same stage and comparing that to my own plan, as well as analyzing my results and seeing what I did wrong and thinking about how to practice to avoid that in the future takes more time than that I would think. I would add in the entire drive home, sometimes I have to turn the music off so I can hear myself think better. Most of the time I turn it up so I don't have to think about my performance, but that's another story :D

I've also spent hours on youtube watching video of other shooters, hours watching the Magpul Dynamics DVD, some of Saul Kirsch's, Matt Burkett's and Lenny Magill's videos, etc.

And I've also spent hours reading the benos forums, his book (twice, working on a third), other forums including p-t.com articles and ones by Bruce Gray, Steve Anderson's books, Saul Kirsch's books, etc.

Including all that into account I think it would be safe to double that number, for me. I've spent 10x the time and effort learning shooting than I have into college, and I'm a 3.7 student. In fact, that's probably why I'm a 3.7 student. Oh well. I know which accomplishments I'm more proud of.

[Odin Bravo One]

Over my lifetime? Couldn't begin to count.

[YVK]

There is a pretty common theory that it takes around 10,000 hours, or 10 years of doing something full-time, to achieve true mastery in anything.



I wonder where this came from, and what defines "true mastery". Some high-level professional jobs requiring manual skills have less formal requirements.

[Joe in PNG]

Sadly, no where near enough.

[vecdran]

More than is probably sensible in my year of shooting. But hey, it has paid off. I'd say I'm fairly competent now, but still have a long ways to go.

[ToddG]

Looking only at the last few years:

2008-2009, M&P9 test: 371.5 hours on the range
2009-2010, P30 test: 513 hours on the range
2010, HK45 test: 392 hours on the range

Perhaps 10-20 extra hours per year shooting other guns, etc. Probably closer to ten than twenty.
Perhaps 10-20 extra hours per year dry firing. Probably closer to twenty than ten.

So somewhere between 1,300 and 1,400hr over three years.

So far in 2011 on the G17: 222.75 hours on the range

During the tests, I averaged approximately 150 rounds per hour. Assuming that number would hold true in previous years:

31,165 through my first M&P9
176,242 through various SIGs during five years of employment there

That's another 1,300 or so hours.

Getting further into guesstimation land, since I don't have my Beretta numbers on this computer I'd estimate I shot about 25,000rd per year back then. Another 75,000 rounds at 150/hr means another 500 hours.

And finally, I'd just arbitrarily say about 500hr total in the years before going to work at Beretta.

That would put me approximately 1/3rd of the way to 10,000 hours.

[SecondsCount]

My first shot was out of a pellet gun about 35 years ago, a 22 rifle was a few years later. Purchased my first 22 handgun in 1987 and a 9mm in 1989. Back then I would go to the range once or twice a month and that number has grown steadily every year. Last year I averaged once per week. I have always found that the frequency of range visits has trumped length of visit when it comes to improvement.

Except for matches and training, I usually spend 2 hours at the range per visit. Using that number, averaging 25 range visits per year over the last 24 years, I come up with 1,200 hours. You could add a couple hundred more for matches, training, dryfiring, etc.

[Shellback]

I wonder where this came from, and what defines "true mastery". Some high-level professional jobs requiring manual skills have less formal requirements.

It gained popularity when Malcolm Gladwell wrote about it in his book Outliers: The Story of Success. The number is based on a study by Anders Ericsson, The Making of an Expert (http://www.coachingmanagement.nl/The%20Making%20of%20an%20Expert.pdf), which is a very good read on the subject and is where Gladwell got the idea, to the best of my knowledge.

I'm a looooog way from 10k hours but continue to chip away at it day after day.

[jetfire]

I wonder where this came from, and what defines "true mastery". Some high-level professional jobs requiring manual skills have less formal requirements.

From a book called Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outliers_(book)).

[beltjones]

266 hours in 1 year and 9 months using your method.

I figured 20 minutes of dry fire every day, and I think that's conservative, even taking into account days taken off.

I think 1 minute per stage is conservative. While I'm physically at the range for a match, formulating my plan, studying how others shoot the same stage and comparing that to my own plan, as well as analyzing my results and seeing what I did wrong and thinking about how to practice to avoid that in the future takes more time than that I would think. I would add in the entire drive home, sometimes I have to turn the music off so I can hear myself think better. Most of the time I turn it up so I don't have to think about my performance, but that's another story :D

I've also spent hours on youtube watching video of other shooters, hours watching the Magpul Dynamics DVD, some of Saul Kirsch's, Matt Burkett's and Lenny Magill's videos, etc.

And I've also spent hours reading the benos forums, his book (twice, working on a third), other forums including p-t.com articles and ones by Bruce Gray, Steve Anderson's books, Saul Kirsch's books, etc.

Including all that into account I think it would be safe to double that number, for me. I've spent 10x the time and effort learning shooting than I have into college, and I'm a 3.7 student. In fact, that's probably why I'm a 3.7 student. Oh well. I know which accomplishments I'm more proud of.


Good points. I thought about putting in time for self study, deep thoughts, and so on, but then it occurred to me that the numbers would get way, way out of hand. I also purposefully didn't want to include time spent pontificating on internet forums. I mean, look at Todd's Serpa post, and some of the 4,000 word essays that people wrote on why he's wrong. I don't think anyone would argue that those people are closer to being better shooters after spending the time to transcribe their opinions from their cave walls to their respective computers.

[ToddG]

On the contrary, I think contemplation and such play a huge role in skill-building. The reason I wouldn't count forum time, reading time, etc. into my 10k is because that's not what is supposed to be measured. You'd have to go back and re-figure the concert violinist's and NFL quarterback's numbers if you counted that kind of stuff, and then the 10k threshold would become 20k, or whatever.

Put another way: if you're so involved in something that you put 10,000 hours of your life into it, it's safe to assume you also spend a lot of your time thinking about that "something" even when you're not practicing, etc.

[YVK]

It gained popularity when Malcolm Gladwell wrote about it in his book Outliers: The Story of Success. The number is based on a study by Anders Ericsson, The Making of an Expert (http://www.coachingmanagement.nl/The%20Making%20of%20an%20Expert.pdf), which is a very good read on the subject and is where Gladwell got the idea, to the best of my knowledge.

I'm a looooog way from 10k hours but continue to chip away at it day after day.



From a book called Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outliers_(book)).

Thanks for the references, I briefly looked them over.

I am going to hazard a guess that commercial airline pilots don't need 10K hours of flight time to get their license.

I am pretty certain that neither myself nor any of my partners have needed that much training to be allowed to treat heart attack patients. Since our outcomes and mortality have exceeded national parameters for several years in a row, I'd conclude it is not just a lucky happenstance. No disrespect to Ericsson and Gladwell, but I am not buying this 10K thing, unless one is talking one-of-a-kind, best in the world type of mastery.

[beltjones]

Thanks for the references, I briefly looked them over.

I am going to hazard a guess that commercial airline pilots don't need 10K hours of flight time to get their license.

I am pretty certain that neither myself nor any of my partners have needed that much training to be allowed to treat heart attack patients. Since our outcomes and mortality have exceeded national parameters for several years in a row, I'd conclude it is not just a lucky happenstance. No disrespect to Ericsson and Gladwell, but I am not buying this 10K thing, unless one is talking one-of-a-kind, best in the world type of mastery.

I don't think the point is to say that you need 10,000 hours to be competent at something, or good at it, or even great at it. The number is a swag based on a ton of anecdotal evidence some author put together once upon a time.

Also, obviously the 10,000 hours thing isn't a hard and fast rule for every activity. But I think we're getting hung up on the whole 10,000 hours thing. I think the point is that to truly master something you need to put in the work, and for most things worth mastering the workload is pretty intense. Pistolcraft is no exception. The idea here was to simply come up with a quick methodology to determine just how long those curious enough to run the numbers have been actively working at mastering the art of the pistol.

[jetfire]

The 10k hour thing is a actually talking about 1-of-a-kind levels of mastery, not just "being good" at stuff. One of the examples is Tiger Woods, another is the Beatles (don't be a hater anti-Beatles people), etc. It's like the difference between most of us and top level GMs like JJ Racaza or Dave Sevigny.

[ToddG]

No disrespect to Ericsson and Gladwell, but I am not buying this 10K thing, unless one is talking one-of-a-kind, best in the world type of mastery.

That is what they're talking about, though. They're talking about achieving true world-class mastery.

[rsa-otc]

Started doing this in the late 70's. Other than keeping tab of your scores we really didn't do as much tracking as we do now a days, so I cant' give you an exact lifetime number.

Last 3 years :

Running classes March thru September - 24 hours/mo x 8 months x 3 years - 576
Competitions 9 hours per month year round - 324
I try to get a 40 hour course in every other year - 65
Practice inclusive of Dry-fire 8 hours per month - 288

Approx 3 year total - 1253

Over 34 plus years I may have close to 10,000 hours given that I slacked off a bit as my kids were growing up.

This doesn't count forum, or reading time.

[JHC]

I have 43 years of handgun shooting (since age 10 while reading Cooper, Jordan, Skelton, etc), dry firing, drawing, reloading, etc to try and tally so this is a bit of a SWAG to say the least but I'm thinking right around 12K hours. Now if I count visualization (and they say visualizing an act trains the mind/body much like actually performing said feat) of these and closely related activities/skills then the number is way up. I'm pretty sure the 10K rule of thumb isn't so very valid as a general rule as I have a hunch Sevigny got to mastery/near mastery level so quickly that his hours to get there were probably much less.

Then there is the breakdown of which specific granular skill has achieved what level of competence after 000's of hours. Draw and reloads IMO are not so tough to get really good at. OTOH in my case, 12K hours of handgun stuff has not delivered complete mastery of the trigger press as this is so dang perishable and requires so much ongoing work, it seems to never be truly mastered for any given shot on any given day.

Defining mastery - that I don't know. I think unconscious competence is an easier concept to see/feel and therefore define in practical terms.

[YVK]

The 10k hour thing is a actually talking about 1-of-a-kind levels of mastery, not just "being good" at stuff. One of the examples is Tiger Woods, another is the Beatles (don't be a hater anti-Beatles people), etc. It's like the difference between most of us and top level GMs like JJ Racaza or Dave Sevigny.


That is what they're talking about, though. They're talking about achieving true world-class mastery.

Then it would make sense.

However, for mere mortals, (quoting beltjones "The idea here was to simply come up with a quick methodology to determine just how long those curious enough to run the numbers have been actively working at mastering the art of the pistol"), I don't think that "time spent at it" is a great parameter. If I were to pick one measurement, I'd say "lifetime round count", but even that has obvious limitations.

[David Armstrong]

I've got well over 10K hours, but it also stretches out over more than 30 years, and I while I believer I have a mastery of firearms I would not consider myself a master of the firearm. Much (most?) of my training and time has been focused on developing basic and common skills and not working to achieve that best in class type of skill.

[grimel]

I have 43 years of handgun shooting (since age 10 while reading Cooper, Jordan, Skelton, etc), dry firing, drawing, reloading, etc to try and tally so this is a bit of a SWAG to say the least but I'm thinking right around 12K hours. Now if I count visualization (and they say visualizing an act trains the mind/body much like actually performing said feat) of these and closely related activities/skills then the number is way up. I'm pretty sure the 10K rule of thumb isn't so very valid as a general rule as I have a hunch Sevigny got to mastery/near mastery level so quickly that his hours to get there were probably much less.

Then there is the breakdown of which specific granular skill has achieved what level of competence after 000's of hours. Draw and reloads IMO are not so tough to get really good at. OTOH in my case, 12K hours of handgun stuff has not delivered complete mastery of the trigger press as this is so dang perishable and requires so much ongoing work, it seems to never be truly mastered for any given shot on any given day.

Defining mastery - that I don't know. I think unconscious competence is an easier concept to see/feel and therefore define in practical terms.

Mostly what he said. I wore out TWO Marksman BB/pellet/dart pistols before I was 8. I spent 1 yr under the instruction of a US Army pistol shooter (coached the ROTC rifle team and I preferred pistols so he worked extra with me on the pistol to the tune of 500rds of match ammo a week for bullseye). Yet, some days I'm not sure I've ever actually shot a pistol before.