Non-Lethal or Less-Than-Lethal Ammunition Effectiveness

[cclaxton]

All this stuff going on in Ferguson got me thinking about non-lethal and less-than-lethal rounds.
I found this website: http://www.conceptsinammunition.com/
I didn't know they had pepper rounds or rubber pellets in addition to bean bags for shotguns.
Are these the state of the art in less-than-lethal?
What are the distances that these can be used without serious injury?
How reliable are they?
What is the best application other than crowd control?

I am kinda liking the idea some are designed not to penetrate walls. It seems to me some of the bean bag or rubber pellet rounds in my home shotgun would be a pretty effective deterrent and be safer to the neighbors and in case of mistaken identity.

Rather than getting into a discussion comparing these to lethal, I would like to see this focus on the effectiveness, reliability, and benefits of these various forms of less-than-lethal rounds for shotgun, pistol and rifle.

Cody

[Tamara]

I don't think it's a good idea to point a 12 gauge shotgun at someone you don't want to kill or seriously injure. There's a reason that police department ones used for less-lethal munitions have orange furniture and aren't used for anything but less-lethal munitions.

[LtDave]

I don't think it's a good idea to point a 12 gauge shotgun at someone you don't want to kill or seriously injure. There's a reason that police department ones used for less-lethal munitions have orange furniture and aren't used for anything but less-lethal munitions.
NEVER NEVER NEVER shoot less lethal rounds out of a gun that you also use with lethal rounds. Recipe for disaster. And, they are called LESS Lethal, not NON Lethal. If you're not On duty LE, trained and with the deep pocket of an agency behind you I wouldn't consider using them in a civilian self defense scenario.

[Lester Polfus]

Ditto to the above two posters.

Back in 2002, I was newly minted as a qualified less lethal shotgun guy, with the 12 gauge Super Sock round. At the start of my shift, I was meticulously checking every round in the less lethal Remington 870 with orange furniture in the trunk of my car, and every round of buckshot for the 870 in the front of my car was in the right home, aware all the while that one of our crusty old sergeants was watching me.

I will never forget the exact words he said to me when I was done. "Look you just finished training so all this stuff is fresh in your mind. Don't ever get slack and blow off that check. Sooner or later somebody is gonna F this up, and I don't want it to be one of us."

Just a couple years ago, the PD right next door zapped a guy with buckshot when they meant to shoot him with a less lethal round. The guy that did it isn't a cop anymore, and there was talk of a criminal prosecution, although I don't think anything ever came of it.

[Lon]

Just a couple years ago, the PD right next door zapped a guy with buckshot when they meant to shoot him with a less lethal round. The guy that did it isn't a cop anymore, and there was talk of a criminal prosecution, although I don't think anything ever came of it.

This was one of the reasons our brass decided to get rid of all buckshot and slugs from inventory (except for SWAT). Shotguns for our patrol guys are strictly LL.

[SWAT Lt.]

I have seen beanbags/Super Socks work, and I have seen them fail. I would not select them for home defense based on any perceived deterrence factor, being safer to the neighbors, or in case of a mistaken identity shooting. Police are trained not to deploy them unless they have another officer with a lethal weapon at the ready with them as back up.

The deterrence factor of any weapon, including the action cycling on an 870, is overrated (i.e. the person you may have to shoot likely won't be as impressed with the sight or sounds of your big gun as you are) and cannot be relied upon. The best thing you can do for yourself and your neighbors is PID your target, watch where you are shooting, and don't miss.

Although less lethal is capable of stopping, or even killing someone (it used to be called non-lethal, which proved to be incorrect), I would not to respond with a gun loaded with them when an intruder breaks in armed with a gun with real bullets.

[Chuck Haggard]

I have seen beanbags/Super Socks work, and I have seen them fail. I would not select them for home defense based on any perceived deterrence factor, being safer to the neighbors, or in case of a mistaken identity shooting. Police are trained not to deploy them unless they have another officer with a lethal weapon at the ready with them as back up.

The deterrence factor of any weapon, including the action cycling on an 870, is overrated (i.e. the person you may have to shoot likely won't be as impressed with the sight or sounds of your big gun as you are) and cannot be relied upon. The best thing you can do for yourself and your neighbors is PID your target, watch where you are shooting, and don't miss.

Although less lethal is capable of stopping, or even killing someone (it used to be called non-lethal, which proved to be incorrect), I would not to respond with a gun loaded with them when an intruder breaks in armed with a gun with real bullets.



^This^


I have hit a number of bad guys with LL 12 gauge rounds. I am not impressed with the effectiveness of such ammunition.

A smart administrator would not allow use of LL from shotguns IMHO, use the gauge for buckshot and slugs, use 40mm for LL. Tough to get a buckshot round into your grenade launcher accidentally.

[Tabasco]

I use rubber buckshot (Fiocchi) for pest control. I live in the country and have chickens. Everyone likes chicken, especially raccoons. I have too many neighbors to make it safe to use lead, so rubber projectiles are the way to go here. LL seems to be better than actually killing raccoons, since if you kill them, another will come along and take over the dead one's territory . Giving them a load of rubber gives them a bad experience and they seem to avoid my property for around a year, while keeping other raccoons out of their territory (and away from my chickens). It seems to have worked well for the last year or so. YMMV

[Mr_White]

This guy was pretty shocked when his 12 gauge rubber pellet load had very little effect: http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/steve_duin/index.ssf/2012/01/north_portland_man_still_on_th.html

It was very funny when I saw the news story - he obviously really believed it would be a pretty effective deterrent. He was just astonished that it had essentially no effect.

[NEPAKevin]

I am a little disappointed to find out the Taser XREP was discontinued.


http://youtu.be/8FJuaFrJwRM

[David Armstrong]

I hate the term "less-than-lethal" as I feel it is incorrect. Pretty much all of them are lethal under the right circumstances, so I always go with "less lethal." And less lethal rounds are much like lethal rounds...sometimes they work real good, sometimes not so good. This comes up in my classes fairly regularly and my advice for the home shotgun is that one only use less lethal if lethal force would also be allowed. If one wants to lay in an additional layer hoping it will be sufficient to stop the action, great, but you can still kill with it. I don't recommend it but I won't argue with someone who wants that additional layer. If I was going to do that I would use the sock-style round as it seems to be more accurate than the regular beanbag over a greater distance. I'm not sure I would use the rubber pellets at all given the home defense scenario distances.

[LtDave]

In my experience the 12 ga bean bag/sock rounds have the desired effect maybe 50% of the time. 40mm work much better.

[LSP552]

I have seen beanbags/Super Socks work, and I have seen them fail. I would not select them for home defense based on any perceived deterrence factor, being safer to the neighbors, or in case of a mistaken identity shooting. Police are trained not to deploy them unless they have another officer with a lethal weapon at the ready with them as back up.

The deterrence factor of any weapon, including the action cycling on an 870, is overrated (i.e. the person you may have to shoot likely won't be as impressed with the sight or sounds of your big gun as you are) and cannot be relied upon. The best thing you can do for yourself and your neighbors is PID your target, watch where you are shooting, and don't miss.

Although less lethal is capable of stopping, or even killing someone (it used to be called non-lethal, which proved to be incorrect), I would not to respond with a gun loaded with them when an intruder breaks in armed with a gun with real bullets.

Can't be said better!

Ken

[cclaxton]

I just bought a shotgun from a Marine who shoots on the MarineCorp 3gun team. He has served four combat tours and has a lot of experience training with lethal and less-than-lethal. I asked him about LTL, and he fully endorsed it. His experience is that in most cases it knocks a person down...that is most cases. He said he has been hit with them in training and he was a very muscled guy and it took him to his knees and took his breath away.

I can see the issue is that LTL is not ALWAYS effective, so just use lethal. Sometimes you don't have a person armed with a lethal weapon, such as a drunk who breaks into your house mistakenly. It seems to me one option would be to have a shotgun loaded with LTL, with a side-saddle with lethal rounds in case you need them. I will always have a pistol loaded with lethal ammo, so what would be wrong with that?

Cody

[Stephen]

If a random drunk is able to mistakenly enter your home at night, I think you should invest in window laminate and a new locks before thinking about firearm selection.

[Tamara]

If all you wanted was confirmation for a decision you'd already made, then why solicit differing opinions? :confused:

Also, this right here is a gem:

It seems to me one option would be to have a shotgun loaded with LTL, with a side-saddle with lethal rounds in case you need them.

So, Sumdood has busted up into your crib, and you've engaged him with a baton round or two, and now he's really pissed and coming at you, and you're going to do a select slug drill from your sidesaddle before he gets across your living room? Am I tracking that correctly?

[cclaxton]

If a random drunk is able to mistakenly enter your home at night, I think you should invest in window laminate and a new locks before thinking about firearm selection.
Your answer is not responsive to the question. This actually happened to a guy out in Loudon County, VA: http://www.leesburgtoday.com/news/no-charges-filed-in-fatal-sterling-shooting/article_44f61b36-1a56-11e3-b963-001a4bcf887a.html

Also, it could be a family member. This just happened. New door locks won't fix this: http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/deputy-shoots-daughter-he-mistakes-for-intruder-officials/2014/08/14/a1015996-23f5-11e4-86ca-6f03cbd15c1a_story.html

Another reason to consider LTL.
Cody

[cclaxton]

If all you wanted was confirmation for a decision you'd already made, then why solicit differing opinions? :confused:

Also, this right here is a gem:


So, Sumdood has busted up into your crib, and you've engaged him with a baton round or two, and now he's really pissed and coming at you, and you're going to do a select slug drill from your sidesaddle before he gets across your living room? Am I tracking that correctly?
Not exactly. I would probably draw my handgun loaded with lethal, which I always have on me or by me.
Cody

[Tamara]

Ah. My PJs don't have belt loops, so I was a little confused.

[TCinVA]

Another reason to consider LTL.
Cody

You seem to be missing the point: If you don't intend to use lethal force, a shotgun is the wrong tool for the job.

[Stephen]

Your answer is not responsive to the question. This actually happened to a guy out in Loudon County, VA: http://www.leesburgtoday.com/news/no-charges-filed-in-fatal-sterling-shooting/article_44f61b36-1a56-11e3-b963-001a4bcf887a.html

The guy left his window unlocked. Which is exactly what I was getting at. Your house shouldn't be that easy to accidentally wander into.


Also, it could be a family member. This just happened. New door locks won't fix this: http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/deputy-shoots-daughter-he-mistakes-for-intruder-officials/2014/08/14/a1015996-23f5-11e4-86ca-6f03cbd15c1a_story.html

Another reason to consider LTL.
Cody

New locks wouldn't have stopped that, but identifying the target before shooting at it would have. A flashlight an an once of sense would have prevented that.

[cclaxton]

The guy left his window unlocked. Which is exactly what I was getting at. Your house shouldn't be that easy to accidentally wander into.
New locks wouldn't have stopped that, but identifying the target before shooting at it would have. A flashlight an an once of sense would have prevented that.
Stephen, the question is about Less Than Lethal. The kid could have broken in...drunks break in to the wrong house all the time.
Cody

[cclaxton]

You seem to be missing the point: If you don't intend to use lethal force, a shotgun is the wrong tool for the job.
Open to better ideas. I have mace/oc but that can affect my ability to respond and can affect my other housemates. Tasers are expensive and maintenance and training issue. You got something better?
Cody

[Tamara]

How do you tell a belligerent drunk guy who won't obey verbal commands because he thinks he's in his own house from a belligerent drunk guy who won't obey verbal commands because he wants to kill you?

[Aray]

This is an excellent job of trolling by the OP.

[Tamara]

I often hope so.

[Stephen]

Stephen, the question is about Less Than Lethal. The kid could have broken in...drunks break in to the wrong house all the time.
Cody

That's what I'm addressing. What I'm trying to say is that if you follow commonly accepted tactics like having well-secured entries and IDing your target before shooting it, I don't think less-lethal is useful. There is a downside to your plan here. What if the person who breaks in is a violent criminal and you're standing there with rubber bullets against a guy with lead ones?

I don't know how viable your pistol & shotgun approach is. As Tam mentioned, is your sleeping attire equipped for a holstered gun? Mine definitely isn't. The bad guy isn't going to give me a timeout to put on pants, belt, and a holster. I guess you could sleep in basketball shorts and have a paddle holster on the nightstand. However, I've actually experimented with that setup around the house and it doesn't work well with anything but a very light weight gun. If you try to carry a WML-equipped Glock in that rig, you'll be holding your shotgun with one hand and holding your pants up with the other. Even if you work that out with some other rig, you still have to deal with the extra time required to equip two guns and then you might have to deal with transitioning weapons during a violent encounter.

It seems like you started with the conclusion and then found a problem for it to solve. I think it would be better to start with the problem: What steps should I take to ensure I don't shoot a home intruder who doesn't need to be shot? That would be an excellent discussion. I think SMEs like Chuck would have some very good input there, but I don't think less-lethal shotgun rounds would be near the top of their recommendations.

[Mr_White]

I just bought a shotgun from a Marine who shoots on the MarineCorp 3gun team. He has served four combat tours and has a lot of experience training with lethal and less-than-lethal. I asked him about LTL, and he fully endorsed it. His experience is that in most cases it knocks a person down...that is most cases. He said he has been hit with them in training and he was a very muscled guy and it took him to his knees and took his breath away.

I can see the issue is that LTL is not ALWAYS effective, so just use lethal. Sometimes you don't have a person armed with a lethal weapon, such as a drunk who breaks into your house mistakenly. It seems to me one option would be to have a shotgun loaded with LTL, with a side-saddle with lethal rounds in case you need them. I will always have a pistol loaded with lethal ammo, so what would be wrong with that?

Cody


You seem to be missing the point: If you don't intend to use lethal force, a shotgun is the wrong tool for the job.

I could not agree more with TC.

It’s a very unwise idea, and some people have learned this the hard way (one PD local to me, I think the same one that Lester Polfus referred to), that having a tool with a mixed lethal and less-lethal ammo supply, is a recipe for disaster. Lethal and less-lethal ammunition is prone to getting mixed up when it’s customarily used in the same weapon at any time, let alone having both types of ammunition available in the same place and time.

As said by others, the two news stories you posted are problems of home security and threat ID and assessment in low light.

[cclaxton]

This is an excellent job of trolling by the OP.
My questions are as serious as they get. Not trying to rile anybody up.
Just trying to get good answers on Less Than lethal.
Cody

[cclaxton]

That's what I'm addressing. What I'm trying to say is that if you follow commonly accepted tactics like having well-secured entries and IDing your target before shooting it, I don't think less-lethal is useful. There is a downside to your plan here. What if the person who breaks in is a violent criminal and you're standing there with rubber bullets against a guy with lead ones?

I don't know how viable your pistol & shotgun approach is. As Tam mentioned, is your sleeping attire equipped for a holstered gun? Mine definitely isn't. The bad guy isn't going to give me a timeout to put on pants, belt, and a holster. I guess you could sleep in basketball shorts and have a paddle holster on the nightstand. However, I've actually experimented with that setup around the house and it doesn't work well with anything but a very light weight gun. If you try to carry a WML-equipped Glock in that rig, you'll be holding your shotgun with one hand and holding your pants up with the other. Even if you work that out with some other rig, you still have to deal with the extra time required to equip two guns and then you might have to deal with transitioning weapons during a violent encounter.

It seems like you started with the conclusion and then found a problem for it to solve. I think it would be better to start with the problem: What steps should I take to ensure I don't shoot a home intruder who doesn't need to be shot? That would be an excellent discussion. I think SMEs like Chuck would have some very good input there, but I don't think less-lethal shotgun rounds would be near the top of their recommendations.

I am not looking for a solution to a problem, per se. I am looking to learn more about Less Than Lethal and its application. I see LE use a lot of LTL in crowd control, etc. I also hear a lot of people saying it is very effective most of the time. But I also hear a lot of recommendations to avoid its use entirely, which doesn't match with LE and others who have experience with it.

Is any answer here more related to the worry that if LTL becomes an option then legislation will try and restrict the use of lethal?
I am trying to reconcile the diversity of opinion.
Cody

[Tamara]

My questions are as serious as they get. Not trying to rile anybody up.
Just trying to get good answers on Less Than lethal.
As has been mentioned several times, "Less Than Lethal" is very 1980s. It's been referred to professionally as "Less Lethal" for many years now.

[LittleLebowski]

Open to better ideas. I have mace/oc but that can affect my ability to respond and can affect my other housemates. Tasers are expensive and maintenance and training issue. You got something better?
Cody

A dog.

[NEPAKevin]

A dog.

Or maybe two dogs. One that is older, slower with worn down teeth for situations that are less than bite worthy and a younger one that is bite trained for situations that justify an elevation in the force continuum.

[LittleLebowski]

Or maybe two dogs. One that is older, slower with worn down teeth for situations that are less than bite worthy and a younger one that is bite trained for situations that justify an elevation in the force continuum.

I believe you're onto something here.

[Joe in PNG]

From what I'm reading, there's a lot of downsides to using Less Lethal rounds in a standard shotgun:
-too easy to mix up the lethal with the less lethal rounds
-LESS lethal =/= NON lethal
-just might not work- anyone remember the video of the samurai sword guy?
-you may need lethal at that point in time

Not worth the trouble.

[LtDave]

Another point re introducing a firearm with less lethal ammo into a civilian confrontation.
You have just escalated the confrontation to the level of deadly force. People will assume any firearm is loaded with standard ammo. You have just given the other side a great self defense explanation for why they shot you. OC or a civilian Taser are much better alternatives.

[LittleLebowski]

Lot of experienced guys on here all saying the same thing.....

[orionz06]

What kind if training do you have dealing with people indoors? What kind of stress have you worked under? The shotgun is very versatile but I don't believe it's as simple as pulling LTL rounds from one vest pocket and shot/slug rounds from another vest pocket.

[SpyderMan2k4]

What kind if training do you have dealing with people indoors? What kind of stress have you worked under? The shotgun is very versatile but I don't believe it's as simple as pulling LTL rounds from one vest pocket and shot/slug rounds from another vest pocket.

I think it depends on if it's a tactical vest, hunting vest, or fishing vest. At that point I think it's best to have different vests with different ammo. Tactical vest for slugs and buckshot, hunting vest for birdshot, and fishing vest for less lethals.

[SouthNarc]

Wow has P-F really come to this?

[trailrunner]

It seems to me one option would be to have a shotgun loaded with LTL, with a side-saddle with lethal rounds in case you need them. I will always have a pistol loaded with lethal ammo, so what would be wrong with that?


Are you proposing emptying the shotgun with LL rounds, then reloading with lethal rounds when it's empty? Or calling an audible in the middle of the engagement, dumping the LL rounds, and then rearming with lethal rounds?

Either way, doesn't make sense to me.

[trailrunner]

Also, it could be a family member. This just happened. New door locks won't fix this: http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/deputy-shoots-daughter-he-mistakes-for-intruder-officials/2014/08/14/a1015996-23f5-11e4-86ca-6f03cbd15c1a_story.html


I read that story since it's local to me (and you). I raised two daughters one county over from where this happened. I remembered the stunts I pulled when I was a teenager, so when my girls were teens I backed off the idea that anyone coming in to my house in the middle of the night was a stranger automatically up to no good.



Another reason to consider LTL.


Another reason to positively ID your target.

[Tamara]

Wow has P-F really come to this?

You try getting through to him. :eek:

[SouthNarc]

You try getting through to him. :eek:

He would have been shown the door a looooooong time ago.

Why aren't you running shit Tam?

[Sigfan26]

Idea (would require industry support): LESS LETHAL 20ga, LETHAL 12ga. No way to mix lethal into less lethal.

[Tamara]

Idea (would require industry support): LESS LETHAL 20ga, LETHAL 12ga. No way to mix lethal into less lethal.

Well... other than that mixing 20 gauge into 12 is the cause of more shotgun misery than any other single mistake. ;)

I could blow up myself AND the bad guy! :D

[Sigfan26]

Well... other than that mixing 20 gauge into 12 is the cause of more shotgun misery than any other single mistake. ;)

I could blow up myself AND the bad guy! :D

Well 12ga doesn't fit in my 20ga (just tried), and the point would be the fact that none of the departments lethal rounds would work in the less lethal weapons.

[trailrunner]

Idea (would require industry support): LESS LETHAL 20ga, LETHAL 12ga. No way to mix lethal into less lethal.

Less lethal rounds could have a square cross-section and only fit in square barrels. Kinda sorta semi less lethal rounds would be triangular and only fit in triangular barrels.

(In case it isn't obvious, this is a joke.)

[Tamara]

Ah. Okay, I'm tracking now.

(The reason I brought up the other was IIRC, and this may be a wive's tale, but the reason that shotgun shells are generally colored by gauge is to prevent the error of sticking a 20 in a 12, because it'll slide into the chamber and down the forcing cone and allow you to chamber a 12 gauge shell behind it with the predictable results. I don't know how many departments would stock both gauges in a liability conscious world, but I may be way off base.)

[Tamara]

Less lethal rounds could have a square cross-section and only fit in square barrels. Kinda sorta semi less lethal rounds would be triangular and only fit in triangular barrels.

(In case it isn't obvious, this is a joke.)

Square bullets are for shooting at Turks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puckle_gun#Two_versions). Everybody knows that. Duh. ;)

[Sigfan26]

Less lethal rounds could have a square cross-section and only fit in square barrels. Kinda sorta semi less lethal rounds would be triangular and only fit in triangular barrels.

(In case it isn't obvious, this is a joke.)

Of course it's obvious... That would require you to engineer a new firearm and new cartridges. 20ga would only require a new loading. Square objects also lack any kind of aerodynamics and would be almost useless with any kind of distance.

[Sigfan26]

Ah. Okay, I'm tracking now.

(The reason I brought up the other was IIRC, and this may be a wive's tale, but the reason that shotgun shells are generally colored by gauge is to prevent the error of sticking a 20 in a 12, because it'll slide into the chamber and down the forcing cone and allow you to chamber a 12 gauge shell behind it with the predictable results. I don't know how many departments would stock both gauges in a liability conscious world, but I may be way off base.)
Makes sense. I'll have to try firing a 20ga in a 12 tmrw to see if it even works (prob not the greatest idea, but it won't blow anything up either). If it will, it also means less lethal projectiles would work (albeit inaccurately) in the larger caliber weapon... Or it will just fall out of the barrel

[LHS]

Well 12ga doesn't fit in my 20ga (just tried), and the point would be the fact that none of the departments lethal rounds would work in the less lethal weapons.

No, but they'd make their 12 gauges a hell of a lot more lethal to the guys using them.

[Sigfan26]

No, but they'd make their 12 gauges a hell of a lot more lethal to the guys using them.

It's already, like, the most lethal round on the planet (launches 9 .30cal projectiles at once)... That's like 9 .308 rounds hitting you at once! If you use the premium buckshot, the bb's also call you a bitch before they enter the body.