Why are Browning Hi-Powers so reliable if they don't utilize controlled feed?

[Magic_Salad0892]

Thread title says it all.

Also, if Bill Reihl chimes in, I have a question:

What 1911 magazines do you prefer and why? I'm thinking of picking up some CMC, or Tripp mags.

[Rosco Benson]

P-35's are controlled feed. The round's rim slides up the breech face under the extractor's hook.

Rosco

[David Armstrong]

I'm not sure the Hi-Power is any more or less reliable than many other guns of that time seem to be. If so, I never noticed it.

[JonInWA]

I think Bill covered this at least tangentially in another recent thread, essentially stating that a staggered cartridge double-column box magazine is inherently more efficacious (and problem free) than single-column magazines are.

That makes a lot of sense to me, in terms of cartridge presentment positioning and presumably less retentive friction from lower cartridges in the cartridge stack.

My OEM (MecGar) .40 Hi Power magazines have been flawless performers, in 3 different .40 Hi Powers over a roughly 18 year span. I literally can think of only one magazine hiccup and that was with a MecGar aftermarket non-mousetrap sprung .40 magazine, which possesses a different follower leg design (which apparently is more problematic).

The best single stack magazines I've experienced have been HKs (for my P7 PSP), Walther (for my several P5, P5C and P1/P38s), SIG P210, SIG-Sauer P220 (concerning both 9mm and .45 ACP magazines), Ruger P90 and Beretta 92 Compact L Type M. Late war milled-tube P.08 Luger magazines have been excellent also, but after tuning (both of the gun and all but one the magazines) by the late John Martz.

Best, Jon

[BWT]

Thread title says it all.

Also, if Bill Reihl chimes in, I have a question:

What 1911 magazines do you prefer and why? I'm thinking of picking up some CMC, or Tripp mags.

I will be on the hunt again some day.

But... I have opinions and theories on this one and I'm not Bill Riehl.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wJvT3Cd4iME

Chip McCormick appears to be the father of the 8 round 1911 magazine (or at least a high enough quality one for it to grow popular).

In the above video, Rob Leatham, Chip McCormick, Brian Enos, and other greats from the early 90's chat about shooting, gear, guns, etc. they all are shooting 1911's.

What is interesting to note is all of these early adopters were competitors (in this video, IIRC) in IPSC.

Others feel free to weigh in and tell me I'm wrong; if I am.

I'm getting to the point so be patient.

I've developed my own theory from my own experiences, that unfortunately most 8 round 1911 magazines aren't as reliable as their 7 round counterparts. I've witnessed issues of springs I believe taking sets; this has manifested in failures to lock back, etc. my examples were: Wilson 47D's, Chip McCormick Power Mags, Wolff 8 rounders, Night Hawk Custom flat base 8 rounders, and factory Dan Wesson 8 rounders, and I even upgraded the springs and followers on my DW magazines.

This is also why people who run 1911's change their mag springs more regularly.

Now, any engineer will tell you springs (in most metals) will only wear/weaken by usage. Which is true. However, it is also true that if a spring is stretched or compressed past certain parameters it will not return to it's prior shape. An example would be taking a 1911 magazine spring and stretching it to a straight wire, or putting it in a press and smashing it into a disk.

Now back to IPSC, IPSC requires that guns be in classes. These classes have requirements like weapon size, magazine size. Things like flush fitting magazines or non-stock form factor magazines.

I had a light bulb moment watching that video. Chip McCormick found a way to fit 8 rounds in a 7 round magazine and developed a pretty functional magazine. However, Chip McCormick was also looking for a competitive advantage and once he had one; his competition did the same. Chip being a competitive shooter, didn't need extreme reliability though these magazines were fairly reliable. Example, Norgon extended magazines in AR's. Reliable enough for competition, but not combat.

So, what supports my theory that they're learning the magazine body is too short is both the Tripp Magazine and Wilson's new ETM have longer magazine bodies. Also, manufacturers such as Chip McCormick putting stronger and stronger springs in their magazines.

These are the cutting edge of 1911 magazines. Flat wire springs may change some of the equation, but at this point if I was going to try a 1911 magazine. I'd try Tripp's first, the guy was a founder of STI (The T in STI) (ETA: and I also believe he's a solid designer). I think they're better because I believe the followers are better being partially metal, I like the geometry, and other features.

I also dislike the Chip McCormick followers; but that's another topic.

God bless,

Brandon

ETA: I also think improved follower shape and design in the Tripp's and Wilson has helped mitigate some of the spring issues.

I can go in more detail later.

[Jeep]

Thread title says it all.

Also, if Bill Reihl chimes in, I have a question:

What 1911 magazines do you prefer and why? I'm thinking of picking up some CMC, or Tripp mags.

I'm not sure that the BHP is all that reliable. I have seen plenty of failures to feed with them, and some failures to eject as well. My sample size isn't large enough to mean all that much, and some of that was with the old internal-extractor models, but from what I've seen I'd rate most post-1980 9mms as more reliable than a BHP.

[45dotACP]

I think Bill covered this at least tangentially in another recent thread, essentially stating that a staggered cartridge double-column box magazine is inherently more efficacious (and problem free) than single-column magazines are.

That makes a lot of sense to me, in terms of cartridge presentment positioning and presumably less retentive friction from lower cartridges in the cartridge stack.


It makes a lot of sense to me, but not in the sense of the 2011 type pistol...which is supposedly less reliable because of the double column magazine? I'm confused on that point.

[BWT]

I was also shooting a Commander length 1911.

[Haraise]

It makes a lot of sense to me, but not in the sense of the 2011 type pistol...which is supposedly less reliable because of the double column magazine? I'm confused on that point.

The STI magazines most people use are known for quality control issues, further made worse by trying to feed .40 and 9mm in a 1911 (too short, too little energy).

A double stack magazine is a double stack magazine, in the same way a Lada and a Toyota are both cars. Just because they both have four wheels doesn't make them the same.

An SVI uses high quality magazines, and when feeding .38SC, 9x23, .45, 10mm (or .40L to an extent) is especially reliable.

[Tamara]

I think Bill covered this at least tangentially in another recent thread, essentially stating that a staggered cartridge double-column box magazine is inherently more efficacious (and problem free) than single-column magazines are.

That makes a lot of sense to me, in terms of cartridge presentment positioning and presumably less retentive friction from lower cartridges in the cartridge stack.

One would think, then, that long guns such as the AK- and AR-pattern rifles, which are not constrained by having to feed their rounds past a trigger mechanism in a grip small enough to be grasped by a human hand, would go for this efficient "funnel" type magazine, rather than using the alternating "left-right-left" feed pattern that they do, no?

[45dotACP]

I will be on the hunt again some day.

But... I have opinions and theories on this one and I'm not Bill Riehl.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wJvT3Cd4iME

Chip McCormick appears to be the father of the 8 round 1911 magazine (or at least a high enough quality one for it to grow popular).

In the above video, Rob Leatham, Chip McCormick, Brian Enos, and other greats from the early 90's chat about shooting, gear, guns, etc. they all are shooting 1911's.

What is interesting to note is all of these early adopters were competitors (in this video, IIRC) in IPSC.

Others feel free to weigh in and tell me I'm wrong; if I am.

I'm getting to the point so be patient.

I've developed my own theory from my own experiences, that unfortunately most 8 round 1911 magazines aren't as reliable as their 7 round counterparts. I've witnessed issues of springs I believe taking sets; this has manifested in failures to lock back, etc. my examples were: Wilson 47D's, Chip McCormick Power Mags, Wolff 8 rounders, Night Hawk Custom flat base 8 rounders, and factory Dan Wesson 8 rounders, and I even upgraded the springs and followers on my DW magazines.

This is also why people who run 1911's change their mag springs more regularly.

Now, any engineer will tell you springs (in most metals) will only wear/weaken by usage. Which is true. However, it is also true that if a spring is stretched or compressed past certain parameters it will not return to it's prior shape. An example would be taking a 1911 magazine spring and stretching it to a straight wire, or putting it in a press and smashing it into a disk.

Now back to IPSC, IPSC requires that guns be in classes. These classes have requirements like weapon size, magazine size. Things like flush fitting magazines or non-stock form factor magazines.

I had a light bulb moment watching that video. Chip McCormick found a way to fit 8 rounds in a 7 round magazine and developed a pretty functional magazine. However, Chip McCormick was also looking for a competitive advantage and once he had one; his competition did the same. Chip being a competitive shooter, didn't need extreme reliability though these magazines were fairly reliable. Example, Norgon extended magazines in AR's. Reliable enough for competition, but not combat.

So, what supports my theory that they're learning the magazine body is too short is both the Tripp Magazine and Wilson's new ETM have longer magazine bodies. Also, manufacturers such as Chip McCormick putting stronger and stronger springs in their magazines.

These are the cutting edge of 1911 magazines. Flat wire springs may change some of the equation, but at this point if I was going to try a 1911 magazine. I'd try Tripp's first, the guy was a founder of STI (The T in STI) (ETA: and I also believe he's a solid designer). I think they're better because I believe the followers are better being partially metal, I like the geometry, and other features.

I also dislike the Chip McCormick followers; but that's another topic.

God bless,

Brandon

ETA: I also think improved follower shape and design in the Tripp's and Wilson has helped mitigate some of the spring issues.

I can go in more detail later.

I'm gonna snowball off ya here. I think feed lip geometry also plays a role. Unless I miss my guess, it was because the shorter OAL of a wadcutter round that the parallel feed lips were designed (because as was pointed out, the 1911 can have issues feeding bullets that are shorter) in order to give the cartridge an earlier release from the control of the magazine so the pressure on the forward part of the follower didn't push the nose of the cartridge up while the rear of the cartridge stayed in the control of the magazine.

This is why the 7 round Colt mags (made my Checkmate I believe) with the tapered feed lips and the dimple on the follower had issues feeding not only the short 185 grain SWC "button" rounds, but also shorter, stubbier hollow points (such as the 200 gr "flying ashtray" that speer made a while back). These would have resulted in feed issues of course, and the mag spring issues you refer to would cause either failures to lock back or a "bolt over base" type malfunction. I'm not Bill, but one of the best things to do with those flush fitting 8 rounders is to put a Tripp Super 7 kit into them. Turns them into 7 round mags, but the reliability to be had is worth it...

This is all stuff I've read. I only just acquired a few hybrid style magazines, and class kinda puts the kibosh on loading up more ammo to play around with. Up til now I've been using CMC and Wilson mags with no problems...I just like to science.

[Tamara]

I've developed my own theory from my own experiences, that unfortunately most 8 round 1911 magazines aren't as reliable as their 7 round counterparts.

This has nothing to do with a single-stack mag vs. a double-column/single-feed mag.

[BLR]

Thread title says it all.

Also, if Bill Reihl chimes in, I have a question:

What 1911 magazines do you prefer and why? I'm thinking of picking up some CMC, or Tripp mags.

P35s are reliable because of the magazine. Notice the 92/39/226/USP/P30/etc all look like the HP mag? There's a reason.

The reason, in practice, most double column 9mm mags are more reliable is because they prevent any interaction between the top and second from top round's rims from interacting.

The reason, in practice, most single column mags have trouble, it because the top and second round's rim interact in a major way. Simple as that. Take the mag out of the equation, a 1911 is a P35 is a 39 is a 92, and so on.

[BWT]

This has nothing to do with a single-stack mag vs. a double-column/single-feed mag.

You are 100% correct. However, he asked Bill about 1911 magazines in the OP.

I have a very limited exposure to HP's.

[BWT]

I'm gonna snowball off ya here. I think feed lip geometry also plays a role. Unless I miss my guess, it was because the shorter OAL of a wadcutter round that the parallel feed lips were designed (because as was pointed out, the 1911 can have issues feeding bullets that are shorter) in order to give the cartridge an earlier release from the control of the magazine so the pressure on the forward part of the follower didn't push the nose of the cartridge up while the rear of the cartridge stayed in the control of the magazine.

This is why the 7 round Colt mags (made my Checkmate I believe) with the tapered feed lips and the dimple on the follower had issues feeding not only the short 185 grain SWC "button" rounds, but also shorter, stubbier hollow points (such as the 200 gr "flying ashtray" that speer made a while back). These would have resulted in feed issues of course, and the mag spring issues you refer to would cause either failures to lock back or a "bolt over base" type malfunction. I'm not Bill, but one of the best things to do with those flush fitting 8 rounders is to put a Tripp Super 7 kit into them. Turns them into 7 round mags, but the reliability to be had is worth it...

This is all stuff I've read. I only just acquired a few hybrid style magazines, and class kinda puts the kibosh on loading up more ammo to play around with. Up til now I've been using CMC and Wilson mags with no problems...I just like to science.

Fascinating stuff and I agree with you.

Thank you for posting. Part of what made me leave 1911's (as my EDC) for a Glock was I was tired of trying to figure out the magazine situation, I wanted better OEM Magazines, I wanted a better finish, and I liked 9mm; among other things.

Anyway, TMI.

[Magic_Salad0892]

BWT. I shoot a Commander, and I do agree with what you're saying about the Tripp magazines, which is specifically why I was looking at them. I was gonna get some Tripp 8 round Cobramags, and some Super 7 kits.

[Magic_Salad0892]

P35s are reliable because of the magazine. Notice the 92/39/226/USP/P30/etc all look like the HP mag? There's a reason.

The reason, in practice, most double column 9mm mags are more reliable is because they prevent any interaction between the top and second from top round's rims from interacting.

The reason, in practice, most single column mags have trouble, it because the top and second round's rim interact in a major way. Simple as that. Take the mag out of the equation, a 1911 is a P35 is a 39 is a 92, and so on.

That makes sense. So you're saying that controlled feed vs. push feed has nothing to do with that reliability?

[Rich]

I used cheap shooting star mag`s for my Colt C.E.1911. never had any problems. Of coarse this has been many years ago.so I don't know if CM changed there specs

[Rosco Benson]

The follower used in the Chip McCormick mags was invented by the late Charlie Kelsey, of Devel fame. Charlie had magazines manufactured (by whom I don't know) and offered them for sale. At the time, an 8-round 1911 mag was quite an advantage in IPSC shooting.

Rosco

[BWT]

BWT. I shoot a Commander, and I do agree with what you're saying about the Tripp magazines, which is specifically why I was looking at them. I was gonna get some Tripp 8 round Cobramags, and some Super 7 kits.

Awesome, perhaps the Wilson ETM's are worth a glance? I want to try the Tripp's if/when I go after another 1911.

[BWT]

The follower used in the Chip McCormick mags was invented by the late Charlie Kelsey, of Devel fame. Charlie had magazines manufactured (by whom I don't know) and offered them for sale. At the time, an 8-round 1911 mag was quite an advantage in IPSC shooting.

Rosco

Interesting, I'll say this, I think the follower designs are/can be a limitation. What I saw with the Chip's was since there wasn't a longer follower with a sturdy front; when spring tension weakened, rounds would nose dive because the follower tip would tilt forward. The Wilson, Tripp's, Nighthawk's and Wolffs all had a newer more fuller shape with more support in the front. Like pictured below.

http://www.nighthawkcustom.com/shop/magazines/magazine-spring-follower-replacements.html

I see they put a ridge in the Tripp's follower in the rear to increase reliability. When the spring weakened with some of the smooth followers it would pull the second cartridge forward in the Chip's and induce a stoppage on the feed ramp. The ridge or bump would hold the cartridge in place so that it had more resistance to being slid forward. It used the case rim to hold it more securely. I think the Night Hawk follower had that ridge as well, IIRC?

I think that the Tripp's have a similar feature, similar shape follower, longer length body, and partially metal follower for better standing up to abuse (supposedly).

The ridge is barely visible in the following picture: https://shop.harrisoncustom.com/content/images/thumbs/0000282_tr-8r-45-rg-tripp-cobra-mag.jpeg

I don't know that it's the best, but it certainly has all of the features or addresses all of the features I'd want. IMHO, jury is still out on the body length being enough; only testing would confirm. I think it's sound reasoning to go 7 rounder until further notice.

ETA: Fixed the quotation so it showed as one.

I think you're on the right track MagicSalad.

The Flatwire Wilson ETM's might be something good too, but it also needs testing.

ETA 2: I fixed notation about the ridge/bump.

[Magic_Salad0892]

Awesome, perhaps the Wilson ETM's are worth a glance? I want to try the Tripp's if/when I go after another 1911.

The Wilson ETMs are worth more than a glance. But I am looking at the Tripp magazines because I want a magazine that retains controlled feed, has a metal insert in the follower to engage the slide stop, and is a 7 round magazine.

The 1911 built it's reputation for reliability with 7 round magazines, and became known as unreliable in the age of 8 round magazines produced by everybody, including shoving 8 rounds in a 7 round tube.

I think a longer 8 round tube with 7 rounds is probably the best way to go at this point, even though my experience with the Wilson ETMs has been great.

[JonInWA]

The Wilson ETMs are worth more than a glance. But I am looking at the Tripp magazines because I want a magazine that retains controlled feed, has a metal insert in the follower to engage the slide stop, and is a 7 round magazine.

The 1911 built it's reputation for reliability with 7 round magazines, and became known as unreliable in the age of 8 round magazines produced by everybody, including shoving 8 rounds in a 7 round tube.

I think a longer 8 round tube with 7 rounds is probably the best way to go at this point, even though my experience with the Wilson ETMs has been great.

Really? I haven't had inherent or systemic unreliability issues with 8 round magazines per se. While it's dangerous ground trying to allocate blame to 1911 reliability issues in a simple thread response, my thought is that it probably has more to do with manufacturers tightening up and/or deviating from Colt's specifications (where the 1911/1911A1 is positioned as a rough-use battlefield implement, with appropriate tolerencing) to achieve greater accuracy, as opposed to using a 8 round versus a 7 round magazine. I personally use and test both 8 and 7 round magazines, in several varieties.

Further problems can be encountered by shifts in platform size-magazines reliable in Government 5" 1911s may be less so with 4.25" and smaller guns. Again, I personally use and test both Government- and Commander-size 1911s.

And the 1911/1911A1 was designed with parts commonality, but with a certain (and not insignificant) amount of manufacturing (and armorer/echelon maintenance, if parts replacements/substitutions are called for) hand work for proper fitting. They also assumed a frame and frame hole/frame milling commonality.

Of course, all this assumes one is using quality magazines as part of the equation, be they 7- or 8-rounders.


Best, Jon

[Magic_Salad0892]

Really? I haven't had inherent or systemic unreliability issues with 8 round magazines per se. While it's dangerous ground trying to allocate blame to 1911 reliability issues in a simple thread response, my thought is that it probably has more to do with manufacturers tightening up and/or deviating from Colt's specifications (where the 1911/1911A1 is positioned as a rough-use battlefield implement, with appropriate tolerencing) to achieve greater accuracy, as opposed to using a 8 round versus a 7 round magazine. I personally use and test both 8 and 7 round magazines, in several varieties.

Further problems can be encountered by shifts in platform size-magazines reliable in Government 5" 1911s may be less so with 4.25" and smaller guns. Again, I personally use and test both Government- and Commander-size 1911s.

And the 1911/1911A1 was designed with parts commonality, but with a certain (and not insignificant) amount of manufacturing (and armorer/echelon maintenance, if parts replacements/substitutions are called for) hand work for proper fitting. They also assumed a frame and frame hole/frame milling commonality.

Of course, all this assumes one is using quality magazines as part of the equation, be they 7- or 8-rounders.


Best, Jon

You're right, I should've been more specific.

Good magazines are good magazines regardless of capacity. Even Wilson 10 rounders seem to work well.

However, in my opinion, reliability potential increases with the 7 round magazines. Bill Riehl has said in other threads that it's because of weight on the spring, but in my uneducated opinion, it's because of the angle of the round in the top of the magazine in relation to the feed ramp. Though, obviously that would play a factor. 8 round magazines tend to have the bullet angled pretty low in my experience. Except Wilsons. They sit high in the mag well, and pretty much bypass the frame ramp.

Now if there were aftermarket flatwire magazine springs available...

[JonInWA]

As I detailed out in a long thread on the forum here some time ago, I actually had MORE problems when switching from 8 round magazines to 7 rounders with my 4.25" Nighthawk Custom Talon II. The bottom line was that the follower and springs are crucial (probably even more so when you do any stepping down in size from 5" Government).

The short version: Using Check-Mate 8 round hybrid feed lip, bull nose/skirted/dimpled follower, extra-power springs = no problems (with both extended tube and welded baseplate magazines)

Using Check-Mate 7 round hybrid feed lip, GI follower, welded baseplate, standard-strength spring = last round in magazine 3-point jams. RESOLUTION: Using same hybrid feed lip tube, switching to Check-Mate's bull nose/fully skirted/dimpled follower and extra-power springs completely eliminated issues with the 4.25" NHC Talon II

The original 7 round magazine setup had performed without incident in 5" Government 1911s...

The only reason that I went to experimenting with the 7 round magazines was because p the IDPA rule change allowing you to carry 3 spare magazines when they're of 6-7 round capacity. Since 2008 I've run 8 rounders exclusively through all my 1911s (other than my 1945 Remington-Rand), and been very pleased with them.

Now I have options, but as in many things 1911, the path to "options" can be an interesting journey...

Yeah, it's a "1911 thing."

Best, Jon

[JTQ]

Using Check-Mate 7 round hybrid feed lip, GI follower, welded baseplate, standard-strength spring = last round in magazine 3-point jams. RESOLUTION: Using same hybrid feed lip tube, switching to Check-Mate's bull nose/fully skirted/dimpled follower and extra-power springs completely eliminated issues with the 4.25" NHC Talon II

In general, I like CheckMate's stuff, but I've had more problems with my CheckMate 7 round hybrid lipped mags than any other mag I own. My problem is last round inertia feed. Last round loose in the ejection port, with the slide locked back. They all have GI followers and I have replaced the springs with Wolff 11 lb extra power springs. The extra power springs have not fixed my mag problems.

I like the CheckMate Patented bullnose follower (CMF) and have other CheckMate mags with that follower, but I wonder what is significant about the CMF follower that would fix your mag problem, or possibly my mag problem?

It is my understanding the mags using the CMF require springs from CheckMate, and Wolff doesn't have a spring designed to work with that follower. Is that correct?

I like to buy my CheckMate mags from Top Gun Supply, and while they have an excellent selection of mags available, besides bumper pads, they don't seem to offer any other mag replacement parts such as followers and springs. I understand you are a CheckMate sponsored shooter, and probably get the stuff directly from them, but is there any other place that may have those parts available?

[JonInWA]

Not to the best of my knowledge, but you should be able to buy springs and followers pretty easily directly from them. Try, and let me know if you have issues. For this, I'd recommend calling them directly as opposed to using the internet for ordering.

Best, Jon

[KevinB]

Oddly enough I have 9 BHP mags sitting at my house (but no longer a BHP). I really do need to get another one.

I do need to win the PowerBall first as I'm not paying $900 for a used BHP to simply send to Bill to make a masterpiece of until I do win.