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View Full Version : USCA Carbine 2-Gun Match, Peacemaker Aug 9



cclaxton
08-14-2014, 08:11 AM
I shot and SO'd for the 2Gun match in the afternoon at Peacemaker.

Here are my thoughts:
Stage 1 was really great except it was difficult to keep track of the targets in the woods, but that made it fun and challenging. The far targets were under 200 yards and I thought they were good. They made us run a good distance, which I don't have a problem with, but thought it was unnecessary.

Stages 2-4 were pretty much the same: lots of paper targets in a row, some at different heights, at about 75 yards with your rifle, and a bunch of steel pistol targets.

I did enjoy Stage 3 pistol targets where I didn't have a single miss on about 14 pieces of small pistol steel. I enjoyed the rifle shooting position for Stage 3, although I didn't go prone some did...and I think they regretted it...dust storm!!!!

Two shots on each paper seems kinda costly on ammo....and unnecessary.

I enjoyed some parts, but I enjoy 3gun better. I miss the variety provided by shotgun targets.

I also enjoyed the use of the rifle sling, and being forced to carry your rifle...that was fun.

My recommendations:
- Limit the sequential target arrays to 6.
- Stage designs need more varieties of target engagements.
- Stages should be shorter.
- A LOT more use of non-threat targets.
- Use Target identification scenarios.
- A lot more use of cover.

Just my thoughts.
Cody

joshs
08-14-2014, 09:00 AM
I pretty much agree with everything you said, except I thought stage 1 was a terrible 180 trap for newer shooters and I didn't like the show clear to transition rule that PNTC was enforcing.

punkey71
08-14-2014, 07:07 PM
Thanks for the reports. I really need to find the time to do that match in the near future.

I have absolutely zero 3 gun/2 gun experience. I shoot USPSA pistol and I am comfortable with rules/range commands but I'm slightly intimidated by a new gun game. Would this be a nice low stress entry to 2 gun?

Also, any videos?

Thanks
Harold

joshs
08-14-2014, 07:47 PM
Thanks for the reports. I really need to find the time to do that match in the near future.

I have absolutely zero 3 gun/2 gun experience. I shoot USPSA pistol and I am comfortable with rules/range commands but I'm slightly intimidated by a new gun game. Would this be a nice low stress entry to 2 gun?

Also, any videos?

Thanks
Harold

I'm not sure if PNTC is going to host another USCA match or just do their own two gun from now on. They don't like letting people transition from a formerly hot carbine, or allowing hot reholstering. Both are allowed by the USCA rules.

2 gun is definitely a lot easier to get into than 3 gun. The shotgun is really the only gun that needs modification to work for 3 gun, so eliminating it and the required support gear means that a lot more gun owners have the required guns and gear to compete.

orionz06
08-14-2014, 08:06 PM
2 gun is definitely a lot easier to get into than 3 gun. The shotgun is really the only gun that needs modification to work for 3 gun, so eliminating it and the required support gear means that a lot more gun owners have the required guns and gear to compete.


Yup, I don't own a shotgun so... I don't really have a gamer carbine but I have all sorts of pieces I bet I could scrounge up something to compete with.

Kyle Reese
08-14-2014, 08:09 PM
Yup, I don't own a shotgun so... I don't really have a gamer carbine but I have all sorts of pieces I bet I could scrounge up something to compete with.

If you don't have KMR, Geissele and a $2,800 optic u can't gun, bro.

joshs
08-14-2014, 08:24 PM
If you don't have KMR, Geissele and a $2,800 optic u can't gun, bro.

Well, obviously. ;)

As you can see from the carbine I shot last weekend:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac338/josh_savani/photo39.jpg

punkey71
08-14-2014, 08:30 PM
Nobody puts Non-Gamer-Carbine in the corner!

LittleLebowski
08-14-2014, 08:40 PM
I want this to work, so badly. Really put off by the Peacemaker rules.

joshs
08-14-2014, 08:50 PM
I want this to work, so badly. Really put off by the Peacemaker rules.

I'm betting they'll go to dump barrels. I think the allowance for slinging a formerly hot gun or hot holstering are the reasons that USCA is still only at 5 or so ranges. Most range owners are not going to be ok with allowing either of those things. I think sling an empty carbine on penalty of DQ if it turns out to be loaded is ok, assuming the sling keeps the muzzle from pointing at anyone while on sling.

cclaxton
08-14-2014, 08:54 PM
I'm not sure if PNTC is going to host another USCA match or just do their own two gun from now on. They don't like letting people transition from a formerly hot carbine, or allowing hot reholstering. Both are allowed by the USCA rules.

2 gun is definitely a lot easier to get into than 3 gun. The shotgun is really the only gun that needs modification to work for 3 gun, so eliminating it and the required support gear means that a lot more gun owners have the required guns and gear to compete.
York IWLA in PA offers their own 2gun match, kinda sorta FNH rules, but they add pistol-only divisions and make the COF pistol capable.
Check them out at: yorkpistol.blogspot.com (http://www.yorkpistol.blogspot.com/)
Cody

cclaxton
08-14-2014, 08:58 PM
If you don't have KMR, Geissele and a $2,800 optic u can't gun, bro.
You can do an entry-level Stag 3G with a Bushnell 1-4x24 223reticle non-illuminated scope for about $1500. That has a Geiselle trigger stock, 18" barrel, rifle length gas, full length forend, adjustable stock, etc. There are plenty of mid-level rifles you can get and a few decent $200-350 scopes that will make you competitive.
Cody

cclaxton
08-14-2014, 09:01 PM
I want this to work, so badly. Really put off by the Peacemaker rules.
The problem is they have too many amateurs that just aren't that safe. I am not that upset with the inability to holster a hot pistol...but stage designs must be better.
Cody

joshs
08-14-2014, 09:05 PM
The problem is they have too many amateurs that just aren't that safe. I am not that upset with the inability to holster a hot pistol...but stage designs must be better.
Cody

Both of those problems can be fixed with good stage design. Holstering a hot pistol is technically legal in USPSA, but nobody does it because it is never beneficial to do during a stage. It isn't that hard to do the same thing in a multigun match, but it simply requires a little more thought on the part of the MD.

Failure2Stop
08-14-2014, 09:21 PM
You can do an entry-level Stag 3G with a Bushnell 1-4x24 223reticle non-illuminated scope for about $1500. That has a Geiselle trigger stock, 18" barrel, rifle length gas, full length forend, adjustable stock, etc. There are plenty of mid-level rifles you can get and a few decent $200-350 scopes that will make you competitive.
Cody
I've won a few 2-gun matches with nothing more than a 6920 with a bushy1-6 and a G19.
If you have A carbine, you are good to go.

KevinB
08-15-2014, 10:49 AM
Both of those problems can be fixed with good stage design. Holstering a hot pistol is technically legal in USPSA, but nobody does it because it is never beneficial to do during a stage. It isn't that hard to do the same thing in a multigun match, but it simply requires a little more thought on the part of the MD.

I did not attend the match but those who have done USCA in FL and now at PeaceMaker said this one was a major let down.

joshs
08-15-2014, 01:34 PM
I did not attend the match but those who have done USCA in FL and now at PeaceMaker said this one was a major let down.

The stages definitely could have used a lot more hard cover, no shoots, and partial targets to add a more realistic shooting experience, but I don't see Cole/Peacemaker ever allowing hot reholstering or transitions from a formerly hot carbine. One injury caused by something that is generally not allowed, or at least seriously discouraged, by other shooting competitions is enough to potentially end any range.

cclaxton
08-15-2014, 01:41 PM
The stages definitely could have used a lot more hard cover, no shoots, and partial targets to add a more realistic shooting experience, but I don't see Cole/Peacemaker ever allowing hot reholstering or transitions from a formerly hot carbine. One injury caused by something that is generally not allowed, or at least seriously discouraged, by other shooting competitions is enough to potentially end any range.
Yeah, I gotta wonder why they included those in the rules. The liabilities are just too great.
I am not sure it adds to much to the match, either. I would be fine with dump barrel OR showing clear and then retaining. We did that at Tidewater, and it was fine. I was able to finish the pistol work, drop the mag and eject the round and reholster while I was moving to the VTAC barricade for the rifle part. The SO was watching the whole time. I thought it was fine.
Cody

Failure2Stop
08-15-2014, 01:51 PM
Hot holstering has already been covered ad nauseam in direct relation to USCA.
Down here, we are pretty much setting up the stage to give a dump opportunity if going from pistol to carbine.

KevinB
08-15-2014, 01:57 PM
Yeah, I gotta wonder why they included those in the rules. The liabilities are just too great.
I am not sure it adds to much to the match, either. I would be fine with dump barrel OR showing clear and then retaining. We did that at Tidewater, and it was fine. I was able to finish the pistol work, drop the mag and eject the round and reholster while I was moving to the VTAC barricade for the rifle part. The SO was watching the whole time. I thought it was fine.
Cody

And this is why I hate gun games.

cclaxton
08-15-2014, 07:03 PM
And this is why I hate gun games.
Kevin,
What part are you commenting on? The whole debate about rules?
Cody

KevinB
08-16-2014, 01:08 AM
I don't even like clearing after a stage...

The dump barrels etc - I just find them an annoying artificiality.

I'd rather USCA and 3 Gun run something like the Black Badge course to be able to walk and chew gum.


Several years ago in FL (Orlando 3 Gun), I had a mechanical breakdown with the shotgun (extractor and ejector issue empty shell in gun with tube still full) - and the problem solver that I am, I transitioned to pistol by dropping shotty -- you'd have thought I murdered a busload of nuns they way they wigged the F out.

JMS
08-16-2014, 12:22 PM
No matter what, be it competition or no, it's just absolutely no fun whatsoever to have to put up with folks that've made a career out of cranking their personal and organizational risk-aversion dials from "sensible" to "crippling." ;)

cclaxton
08-18-2014, 09:44 AM
I don't even like clearing after a stage...
The dump barrels etc - I just find them an annoying artificiality.
I'd rather USCA and 3 Gun run something like the Black Badge course to be able to walk and chew gum.
Several years ago in FL (Orlando 3 Gun), I had a mechanical breakdown with the shotgun (extractor and ejector issue empty shell in gun with tube still full) - and the problem solver that I am, I transitioned to pistol by dropping shotty -- you'd have thought I murdered a busload of nuns they way they wigged the F out.

I completely agree that the level of risk aversion continues to rise in our society. The rewarding of lawyers and clients from liability lawsuits, health care technologies, an unnatural fear of death/injury, and many other factors seem to combine into a increasingly risk averse society. Then, we try to paper-over the liabilities by enacting feel-good laws that are ineffective except that it appears to the public that politicians did something about it. Insurance companies and corporations enact feel-good policies as well.

All that being said: As long as a shooting competition doesn't make it unfair for people to compete, then I have no issues with the safety rules, even if dumb. The only issues I have with dump barrels/buckets is that I should be able to dump my shotgun and rifle in the same barrel. The other issue I have, frankly, is I think all handguns should be unloaded before dumping in the bucket...for practical reasons: No one can go downrange to score the targets while the handgun is loaded, and that takes time. It's always a challenge to keep matches running on-time, and I would like to see all pistols cleared before they go in the bucket. We don't have to wait on the shooter to come clear the gun. A squad member can verify it's clear and pasting/scoring can be done and the pistol re-holstered at the end.
Cody

Kyle Reese
08-18-2014, 12:00 PM
I don't even like clearing after a stage...

Me either. I prefer a hot range to a cold one.

KevinB
08-18-2014, 12:18 PM
The only issues I have with dump barrels/buckets is that I should be able to dump my shotgun and rifle in the same barrel.

That gets me too -- I fail to see why I can't put 4-5 guns in some of those barrels.

Frankly I prefer (IF WE REALLY HAVE TO) put a gun down on a table facing into the berm at a 45degree or so forward.

My suppressor burned a hole in the barrel this weekend in three gun ;)

5pins
09-17-2014, 01:31 PM
I see Peacemaker has another 2 gun match set for the 11th of next month. Anybody going to give it another try? I’m undecided if I’m going to do it or not.
I have never tried two gun, I was going to try three gun but I’m just not into shotguns.

joshs
09-17-2014, 01:40 PM
I see Peacemaker has another 2 gun match set for the 11th of next month. Anybody going to give it another try? I’m undecided if I’m going to do it or not.
I have never tried two gun, I was going to try three gun but I’m just not into shotguns.

I'll be there. I'm going to write the MD with some more ideas for stages to see if he'll build some stages more in the spirit of USCA. If you want to try 3 gun without worrying about getting the shotgun and all the gear, you're free to use my shotgun and shell caddies, just let me know before hand so we can squad together.

5pins
09-17-2014, 04:03 PM
The funny thing is I bought a Versa Max tactical and some shell caddies back in March just for the purpose of getting into 3 gun but decided the whole shotgun aspect just didn’t appeal to me.

I’m sure my wife thinks I’m crazy for spending that much money and not using it.

5pins
10-11-2014, 05:24 PM
I shot the second 2 gun match at PNTC this morning. They no longer requiring a show clear when transitioning from the rife to pistol. You still had to clear it prior to drawing your pistol, you just didn’t have to show it beforehand. There was only one stage that went from rifle to pistol, the other three went pistol to rifle and required dumping the pistol in a bucket, no holstering.

As far as shooting 2 gun? I had a good time and will certainly be shooting it in the future. As far as equipment? The three power ACOG seemed to work well and help with the longer ranges targets and didn’t slow me down too much on the closer stuff. The M9 worked fine but USCA rules require that it stays on safe even when holstered (unlike USPSA). It screwed me up a couple of time because I’m not used to it.