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irishshooter
07-12-2011, 09:45 AM
as soon as i am up after clearing leather and on target i begin staging the trigger and break the shot as soon as i am at full "press out"/extension. i 've had an experience with some fairly seasoned instructors indicating this is a dangerous activity that could potentiate a ND. what say you......(i imagine i know the responses) :cool:

JeffJ
07-12-2011, 09:50 AM
That's what I was taught to do with striker fired and any kind of DA shot, in the same breath was "Don't try and prep a 1911, it doesnt' do that it just fires." I think some instructors may caution against staging the trigger when dealing with the "lowest common denominator" type student, but I can't imagine making quick and accurate shots with my glock without doing so.

vecdran
07-12-2011, 10:26 AM
Check out this thread (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?1275-Improving-the-Press-Out) and the Todd Green articles on the press out. His technique enables you to start your trigger pull pretty much at the beginning of your press out, maintaining a sight picture all the way out (or most of one), thus adding a lot more safety and speed.

virginiatactical
07-12-2011, 10:34 AM
I teach "staging" the trigger, but I don't use the words staging since it might imply to some that you need to stop movement of that DA shot then stop and insure you have a good sight picture before continuing the trigger press (which I would never teach). I also teach a bi-monthly course to DOD (so we use the M9). With a 12-15 lbs trigger pull on our M9s. I teach new shooters to get on the trigger at step 3 (a high center chest step in my draw) and as they press out slowly apply pressure to the trigger so that your shot breaks at extension when in 2 car lengths distance or closer. We practice this dry fire then go to live fire. My students are not shooters and it is a mandatory pre deployment course. I am just saying this because most of the times they are what some would consider beginners, but most of them would not consider themselves beginners.

I want to note that they must still ensure they have a decent sight picture when that shot breaks. I always tell them to have a soft focus on the front sight, and drive the sight on your threat in the high center chest area. I also tell them that this press out can be done badly if you shoot early or throw the gun out there then try to take the DA shot at all once (we have shooters that will shoot the ground 7 yards away) Your sights will dictate if you should deliver the shot, and a smoother press out will give you time to actuate that trigger and also pick up your sights during the press out. My biggest hurdle is always the trigger pull and most of my students have a very hard time hitting the vital area at 7 yards when we 1st begin the training course. At the end of our pistol cycle they improve greatly and are able to deliver 2 shots in 2 seconds at 3 yards and at other distances with different time constraints. (part of the qual, easy for most on this forum, but not for a bunch of DOD desk flyers that only shoot when they take their annual training with me).

ToddG
07-12-2011, 10:45 AM
There is a difference between staging and prepping. As Noel points out, one is bad and one is good.

Staging involves a halt to the trigger pull process, a purposeful pause while sight alignment is verified. The idea is to have the trigger just an ounce from the break point when you haven't got a final acceptable sight picture yet. Do not like.

Prepping involves beginning the trigger press while the gun is doing other things, like pressing toward the target or coming down in recoil. Ideally, you never stop adding pressure to the trigger until it breaks. Though that can be easier said than done with very short, very light triggers... which, btw, is why many 1911 aficionados aren't fond of the press-out to begin with.

The difference between the two might seem subtle, but it's there. Staging involves a planned pause in the trigger press. Prepping just means I'm saving time getting some (most?) of the trigger press done when I safely can but I won't pause unless my sights aren't where I expect them.

John Hearne
07-12-2011, 11:41 AM
FWIW, I was taught that staging was a revolver technique. You press the trigger until the cylinder rotates and locks, pause, get your sights settled and then break the shot. It was a way to get a thumb cocked shot without actually cocking the revolver. Useful on qualifications with generous time limits but not much else.

irishshooter
07-12-2011, 12:11 PM
as soon as i am up after clearing leather and on target i begin staging the trigger and break the shot as soon as i am at full "press out"/extension. i 've had an experience with some fairly seasoned instructors indicating this is a dangerous activity that could potentiate a ND. what say you......(i imagine i know the responses) :cool:

sorry guys :o should read "PREPPING" the trigger. thanks for the clarification in terms.

JeffJ
07-12-2011, 12:17 PM
There is a difference between staging and prepping. As Noel points out, one is bad and one is good.

Staging involves a halt to the trigger pull process, a purposeful pause while sight alignment is verified. The idea is to have the trigger just an ounce from the break point when you haven't got a final acceptable sight picture yet. Do not like.

Prepping involves beginning the trigger press while the gun is doing other things, like pressing toward the target or coming down in recoil. Ideally, you never stop adding pressure to the trigger until it breaks. Though that can be easier said than done with very short, very light triggers... which, btw, is why many 1911 aficionados aren't fond of the press-out to begin with.

The difference between the two might seem subtle, but it's there. Staging involves a planned pause in the trigger press. Prepping just means I'm saving time getting some (most?) of the trigger press done when I safely can but I won't pause unless my sights aren't where I expect them.

I had not heard the distinction before, that makes perfect sense - once again, vocabulary is important but is not always uniform which can lead to misconceptions and errors not to mention, all out internet flame wars with two people who actually agree

jetfire
07-12-2011, 01:37 PM
There is a difference between staging and prepping. As Noel points out, one is bad and one is good.

Staging involves a halt to the trigger pull process, a purposeful pause while sight alignment is verified. The idea is to have the trigger just an ounce from the break point when you haven't got a final acceptable sight picture yet. Do not like.

Prepping involves beginning the trigger press while the gun is doing other things, like pressing toward the target or coming down in recoil. Ideally, you never stop adding pressure to the trigger until it breaks. Though that can be easier said than done with very short, very light triggers... which, btw, is why many 1911 aficionados aren't fond of the press-out to begin with.

The difference between the two might seem subtle, but it's there. Staging involves a planned pause in the trigger press. Prepping just means I'm saving time getting some (most?) of the trigger press done when I safely can but I won't pause unless my sights aren't where I expect them.

Much to my chagrin I actually had an overprep with a 1911 trigger at a major match. If you watch the match video from the 2011 VA State Championship (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guISP_RgzHE) with a careful eye, you can actually see on the stage where I cook a round through the wall before I get to the target. It's on the stage that starts with the carbine. That actually rattled me so bad I forgot to shoot a make-up shot into the target. With a 3.5 lb trigger that has almost no take up, it's almost impossible to prep the trigger on that particular gun.

Compared to my Glock 34 or Sig P250 or any of the revos I have where trigger prep is an essential part of my practice. I also firmly believe that's why I'm able to get consistently faster first shots with non-1911 patter pistols, because I can actually prep the trigger during the press out toward the target instead of waiting until the gun is there before beginning my trigger pull.

NickA
07-12-2011, 01:54 PM
I had not heard the distinction before, that makes perfect sense - once again, vocabulary is important but is not always uniform which can lead to misconceptions and errors not to mention, all out internet flame wars with two people who actually agree
I was wondering about the exact terminology myself. True to PF.com form, question answered, vocabulary difference cleared up, advise given all in less than 10 posts with no name calling. It's so nice.

Simon
07-12-2011, 02:04 PM
FWIW, I was taught that staging was a revolver technique. You press the trigger until the cylinder rotates and locks, pause, get your sights settled and then break the shot. It was a way to get a thumb cocked shot without actually cocking the revolver. Useful on qualifications with generous time limits but not much else.

After 25 + years of compition with a revolver, I can say with assurance that tthat tecnique will result in many NDs. I have found that the best thing to do is to strengthen your hands as much as you can and pull stright through without pause while your are refining your sight picture. While I am not near the level of most of you guys when shooting a simiauto, I find that the same trigger pull works well for me. I find that I do not stop the trigger movement, but will slow it down while I refine my sight picture if I need to. If this is whar you mean by "prepping" the trigger, then I can under stand your method.

DocGKR
07-12-2011, 02:59 PM
Prepping the trigger might be great for competition or if you have already made a decision to shoot before drawing; unfortunately many LE officers need to draw their handgun, press out, and then NOT shoot. When you need to hold people at gun point more than you need to shoot them, then training to stage the trigger on press out is probably NOT smart.

YVK
07-12-2011, 10:36 PM
I understand a theoretical "correctness" of continuous motion vs. trigger staging, but in a recent class given by an exceptional instructor and shooter I observed him do something that looked like staging a trigger on a DA shot. This was on a small target. It is very well may be that he was still applying continuous pressure on trigger at all times, but to outside observer it looked like hammer moved all the way back, froze and then broke the shot. I actually asked "E., you're not doing press-out", to which he replied that this was due to shooting a small target. In retrospect, I do feel stupid for not asking further whether he really paused and staged it, or he was still going through a continuous motion, albeit slow.

I do have to admit that with pistol with a long pull (P30 LEM) I do stage it when shooting long range. I feel like I can't keep proper sight picture and alignment, picture especially, through a long pull. I take up most of travel while getting prelim sight picture, then refine sight picture and then try to roll through the remainder of the pull, trying not to snatch or crash through it.
I would imagine that a correct alternative to this would be a very slow pressout, but when I am shooting 5 inch target at 25 yards, my pressout is so slow that other factors start to play out - breathing pause becomes too long, hand tremor etc.

ToddG
07-13-2011, 06:25 AM
YVK -- As targets get smaller and/or farther, the precision required of the trigger pull and sight reference both go up. Speaking for myself, I don't ever plan to stop the trigger movement (staging), but if I bring the gun up and reach the break point and my sights aren't where they need to be, I fix things before finishing the break (which is so close to staging that it would be staging if I'd done it on purpose, if that makes sense).

However, with a heavy DA shot or even something like the LEM I can reach the break point quickly and then take a good while adding slight but continuous pressure on the trigger. The hammer stops moving but I'm still pulling. That's a key part of the trigger stroke that so many people get wrong: they try to move the trigger a certain distance per unit of time, whereas the proper method is to add a certain pressure per unit of time.

YVK
07-13-2011, 11:14 AM
which is so close to staging that it would be staging if I'd done it on purpose, if that makes sense


This is an excellent explanation, Todd.

jetfire
07-13-2011, 11:53 AM
Prepping the trigger might be great for competition or if you have already made a decision to shoot before drawing; unfortunately many LE officers need to draw their handgun, press out, and then NOT shoot. When you need to hold people at gun point more than you need to shoot them, then training to stage the trigger on press out is probably NOT smart.

I disagree, because this assumes that it's impossible for someone to stop prepping the trigger during their draw. It's quite possible for the brain to communicate the "SITUATION HAS CHANGED STOP PRESSING" signal in time to avoid shooting someone that no longer requires a bullet. I was shooting a "blind" IDPA stage, and the first target you saw after going through the door was a no-shoot. I was drawing on the no-shoot and prepping the trigger when my eyes registered the surrender-hands, and I stopped prepping the trigger and transitioned to the shoot target instead. It is something worth practicing though, and Todd even said in the Speed Kills class I took that it's good to train yourself that you don't always have to shoot when your gun comes out.

Laughingdog
07-13-2011, 12:35 PM
and Todd even said in the Speed Kills class I took that it's good to train yourself that you don't always have to shoot when your gun comes out.

I've had an interesting time trying to get kids in the Bullseye pistol program to grasp a similar concept.

"Just because you picked up the gun doesn't mean you have to pull the trigger. If you can't get steady, just set it down and start over."

It's hard to restrain the stupid grin the first time I see them actually do that.

Mr_White
07-13-2011, 01:02 PM
Prepping the trigger might be great for competition or if you have already made a decision to shoot before drawing; unfortunately many LE officers need to draw their handgun, press out, and then NOT shoot. When you need to hold people at gun point more than you need to shoot them, then training to stage the trigger on press out is probably NOT smart.


I disagree, because this assumes that it's impossible for someone to stop prepping the trigger during their draw. It's quite possible for the brain to communicate the "SITUATION HAS CHANGED STOP PRESSING" signal in time to avoid shooting someone that no longer requires a bullet. I was shooting a "blind" IDPA stage, and the first target you saw after going through the door was a no-shoot. I was drawing on the no-shoot and prepping the trigger when my eyes registered the surrender-hands, and I stopped prepping the trigger and transitioned to the shoot target instead. It is something worth practicing though, and Todd even said in the Speed Kills class I took that it's good to train yourself that you don't always have to shoot when your gun comes out.

I think there are two different things going on here, and they both need to be trained.

When you draw and present the handgun, having already decided to fire accurately at the earliest possible moment, that is the time to prep the trigger/press out, etc.

When you draw the handgun intending to put someone at gunpoint, but not yet shoot, it is time to draw to whatever your "ready position" is, and your finger had better not be on the trigger at all, and your eyes and mind need to be out there on the threat, and assessing it, in order to make a fast and correct shoot/no-shoot decision. Putting the finger on the trigger in that situation is making yourself very vulnerable to ND.

Caleb, I mean this pleasantly and constructively; when you say you were pressing out on the no-shoot target before realizing it was a no-shoot target, I think that means that you skipped the all-important threat ID and assessment process in that instance.

Certainly it is possible for a person to press out intending to fire, but before the pressout is done, the situation changes, no longer justifying and necessitating firing. If that is the case, one might still fire, due to not seeing the change in the situation (if you are trying to look for your sights), or simply due to human reaction time and the amount of time it takes to stop shooting once it has started or begun to be started, and the short time frames involved. I think that one might have a more difficult time explaining and justifying his actions, but he would not be wrong. Justification may require reference to the human performance factors involved. The Force Science Research Center has referenced a study that dealt with this, but more directly with the reaction/lag time involved in stopping shooting once it has actually started: http://www.forcescience.org/fsinews/2010/03/force-science-news-144-%E2%80%9Cexcessive%E2%80%9D-shots-and-falling-assailants-a-fresh-look-at-ois-subtleties/

I would not contend that rescinding an in-progress trigger press is impossible, simply that it may be difficult, and one may or may not always be able to do so.

jetfire
07-13-2011, 01:42 PM
That leads to another completely different argument though, because while there are obviously times that LE should be holding people at gunpoint, what about for armed citizens? Without getting too far down the hypothetical rabbit trails, I have a hard time imagining a situation where as a civilian I should be holding someone at gunpoint other than a home invasion and even then the logic is questionable.

Oh, and I'd say that I successfully ID'd the target in that no-shoot situation since I didn't shoot it. I just accomplished the "target ID" portion of the event in the middle of my draw.

Mr_White
07-13-2011, 03:15 PM
Respectfully Caleb, I think it is a very bad idea to be pointing a gun at, and pressing the trigger on, a target/threat/whatever, that you have not consciously decided to shoot. Perhaps I am misreading what you wrote, but it sounds to me like that is what you have described. I also can understand things happening like that in a match, where there is a huge probability that any given cardboard silhouette needs to be shot. But, transplanted into a situation involving real people, I think that practice creates a gigantic risk of ND into a person who does not need to be shot.

jetfire
07-13-2011, 03:50 PM
I'm just using it to illustrate the point that you can in fact stop a prep that's already in process. I can use examples from training as well - I've been practicing draws to the 3x5 card, and if I've got a shitty press out or something else, I can and have stopped my prep before breaking a bad shot. Since I want to create and maintain good habits, it doesn't do me a lot of good to yank the gun out of the holster and break a shot in 0.99 seconds if I'm not in control of my press out or my accuracy.

Mr_White
07-13-2011, 04:04 PM
I certainly would not disagree with you that it's possible to rescind an in-progress trigger press. It certainly is, but I don't think it's completely reliable either. Maybe I am unfairly taking your match experience and applying it to a defensive situation. In one, the risk may not be that big of a deal. In another situation, it could be.

Thanks for the discussion! :D

DocGKR
07-13-2011, 04:24 PM
Caleb,

With all due respect, if an officer points their gun at an innocent citizen while prepping the trigger and then stops his trigger pull prior to firing, I would definitely classify such an event as barely avoiding a liability disaster of enormous proportions and a near negligent action rather than stating that the officer successfully ID'd the target in that no-shoot situation since no shot was fired. If I was training an officer and that event occurred, we would be instituting some remedial activities in an attempt to preclude such an occurrence in the future. Likewise, if an officer did that to me or my family, we would be having significant words about the event...

Also, please note that I explicitly stated that my concerns regarding always training to prep the trigger during the press out specifically apply to LE actions and the real world consequences that stem from such events; in most cases, a private citizen is only going to be drawing their firearm after they have made a conscious decision to shoot, so prepping the trigger during the press out may be entirely appropriate. Same goes for gun games.

jetfire
07-13-2011, 04:36 PM
This is specifically why I prefer to avoid hypothetically situations. I'm referring to a very narrow scope here - drawing a firearm when shooting is justitified as a LEO. I am not talking about administratively drawing a firearm to hold anyone at gunpoint, or to point guns at innocent civilians. Suggesting that we shouldn't teach cops to prep the trigger during the draw stroke because they might shoot an innocent person is right up there with "people who shoot gun games will get killed in the street" in terms of silly arguments. Both arguments rely on the subject (cops or gamers) to be so stupid as to be unable to distinguish one situation from another. If it was true, then everyone who practices prepping the trigger on the way to the target would have constant NDs every time they unholstered their gun administratively.

I'd suggest that most cops that are going to attend the kind of shooting class that teaches the press-out and trigger prep are also going to be smart enough to know when it's appropriate to get on the trigger on the way to the target and when it isn't.

DocGKR
07-13-2011, 05:05 PM
Caleb, whether you or they know it, LE officers training to always prep the trigger on press out are a lot like LE officers who willingly choose to use SERPA holsters on duty, in that both are disasters waiting to happen, yet look how many cops still use SERPA's...

jetfire
07-13-2011, 05:44 PM
I think there's a huge difference between using a piece of gear that has an inherent design flaw and LEOs being trained to prep the trigger.

I do concede that much as prepping the trigger during the press-out isn't for the average shooter/gun owner, it would also not be recommended for cops that just shoot their annual qualification and not much else. But that's also not what I'm talking about either.

As I understand it, the crux of your argument is that LEOs shouldn't train on prepping the trigger during the press-out because they might be drawing just to "cover" someone or administratively when clearing a building.

The problem I have with that is it suggests that the kind of cops who take their gunhandling skills seriously enough to learn how to do a proper press out are also all probably smart enough to know when it's appropriate to prep the trigger and when it isn't.

ToddG
07-13-2011, 08:57 PM
During a press-out, prepping the trigger is part of the firing process, not part of the drawing process. Putting your finger on the trigger before you've made the conscious decision to generate a very loud noise at the muzzle is violating a fundamental safety rule.

At the same time, it is a mistake to think that training to engage the trigger throughout a press-out will somehow automatically result in fingers on triggers every single time the gun is drawn. I watch students drill the press-out dozens of times in a class and then casually draw their guns without touching the trigger to perform admin reloads, etc. I've watched students perform threat/no-threat assessments under stress an the only time a no-threat was shot was due to an ID failure, not an errant trigger finger or premature press-out.

I once had a similar (but sillier) discussion with a LEO who is also a serious IDPA competitor. He said the press-out was dangerous because "we'll fight like we train" and other silly cliches. A couple minutes later, I pulled a shot timer out of my bag and made it go beep. Guess what? The LEO/IDPA guy, who trains constantly to draw and fire when he hears that beep, didn't draw and fire. Know why? Because there's a lot more going on in our brains -- or at least most of our brains :cool: -- than we sometimes give credit. We're not automatons.

DocGKR
07-13-2011, 10:45 PM
”I do concede that much as prepping the trigger during the press-out isn't for the average shooter/gun owner, it would also not be recommended for cops that just shoot their annual qualification and not much else…….The problem I have with that is it suggests that the kind of cops who take their gunhandling skills seriously enough to learn how to do a proper press out are also all probably smart enough to know when it's appropriate to prep the trigger and when it isn't.”

I just got off the telephone with several LE trainers at moderate size (approx 3000 sworn) west coast agencies. When looked at in aggregate, they believed that approximately 30% of their officers are not routinely capable of safely and effectively using firearms and should ideally not be authorized to carry them. Approximately 50% of the officers in their agencies were safe with basic firearms techniques and could qualify on easy courses of fire when demanded, but these officers routinely chose to not avail themselves of extra agency supported shooting opportunities, let alone outside training. Only 20% of officers, typically on SWAT and other high temp specialty units, were capable of safely employing more advanced shooting techniques, exercised high levels of judgment in shooting scenarios, and sought out advanced individual training on their own.

I am a fan of prepping the trigger during press out, but only AFTER a decision has been made to fire--that is somewhat rare compared to the amount of time an LE officer draws, but is not yet in a situation requiring an immediate shot.

ToddG
07-13-2011, 11:58 PM
I am a fan of prepping the trigger during press out, but only AFTER a decision has been made to fire--that is somewhat rare compared to the amount of time an LE officer draws, but is not yet in a situation requiring an immediate shot.

I'd agree with this 100%. As I said above, prepping is part of the firing process, not the draw or cover or any other process. It happens at the beginning of the trigger press, and you shouldn't be pressing the trigger unless you expect (and want) the Big Loud Noise to happen very, very soon.

I'd also agree in principle with the assessment from the agency instructors you mentioned. The percentage of LEOs who put their finger on the trigger at inappropriate times regardless of what they've been taught is so high that the press-out issue seems almost meaningless in comparison. If an officer puts his finger on his trigger when he's covering, reloading, and taking his gun out of the holster at the crapper then he's probably not even aware of what a press-out is. :p

fuse
07-14-2011, 12:57 AM
He said the press-out was dangerous because "we'll fight like we train" and other silly cliches. A couple minutes later, I pulled a shot timer out of my bag and made it go beep. Guess what? The LEO/IDPA guy, who trains constantly to draw and fire when he hears that beep, didn't draw and fire. .

aaaand checkmate

ford.304
07-14-2011, 11:56 AM
It sounds to me as though there is one assumption being made, that I'm not sure is entirely correct. Are there many situations where a LEO needs to draw his gun *quickly* to threaten the target, but does not need to fire? I might think that drawing slowly and in a controlled fashion would hit different muscle memory. If you regularly do need to quick draw... and then not fire, I can see the muscle memory of a press out being more of an issue.

Wheeler
07-14-2011, 12:50 PM
I don't know if this is even considered correct or not, but I draw for four different reasons.

#1. I have every intention of shooting. In that case my finger is on the trigger, I start to press the trigger during the press out, I break the shot as my sights align with the target. If I feel the need to evaluate, my finger comes off the trigger. SDH gave me total hell over that habit in two different classes, but I still maintain it.

#2. There is something amiss, in which case I will draw, align my index finger alongside the frame, and depending on certain cues would place the pistol in a retention, sul, or low ready position.

#3. It's time to either put the gun up for the day, or time to clean/service it. In which case I will either secure or unload, and proceed from there.

#4. For some reason, I need to adjust my kit in such a manner that requires the gun to be out of the holster. Depending on the specific situation, I will secure the gun in such a manner that allows me to make the adjustments while maintaining positive control of the gun, and then reholster.

Notice that only one of these scenarios have anything at all to do with placing my finger on the trigger. Even when "something is amiss" I do not place my finger on the trigger. I put my finger on the trigger when I plan to shoot. Also notice that when "something is amiss" I do not put the pistol in an aiming position. In my opinion, based on my training, there is absolutely no reason to put the finger on the trigger unless there is a mental cue to shoot. All four of my reasons require a decision to place the finger on the trigger, only one of which is when the pistol is removed from the holster. Anything else is negligence.

With the exception of the use of a holster, this criteria applies to the manipulation of long guns as well. I have received quite a bit of criticism when shooting sporting clays for my refusal to start with my finger on the trigger.

A friend of mine stated that the average person's ability to maintain rational thought with a loaded gun in the hand lasts about 1 second. Stone cold operatators are able to extend that time to around three seconds. Keeping that in mind, having the finger on the trigger while trying to think through a field problem of any sort is bad training, bad tactics, and just an all-around bad idea.

Dagga Boy
07-18-2011, 10:28 PM
Well, I'll just jump in here with my first rookie guy post. Todd, I very much appreciate your definition of this being part of the firing process, as you hit it better than most. The BIG missing issue here is always the threat evaluation process. Caleb, I have no clue what your background is, but not shooting a no shoot at a match is not one of those things I would look at as a means of a solid opinion on this. I have pointed a firearm with intent at thousands of people over almost 20 years of working nights in a busy SoCal city, and have actually shot a couple. I have also been present at so many shootings that my nickname for many years was "the bridesmaid" (I guess I was really good at not falling into the contagious fire thing). The reality is that I can shoot far faster than I can threat evaluate. I am not as good a shooter as most here, and I am probably far better at real threat evaluation on real humans than most.

I am all for shooting more efficiently, but that must be done within the box of "you better be right" when that shot goes off for real. Prepping the trigger is bad-period. I've seen the results.......including bad shootings with the "I don't know how it went off" look. I was a 50,000 round a year .45 shooter till the arthritis in my hands won. In my case in the actual shootings I was in, the trigger did not feel at all like practice. There was no "feel" to the trigger that I could ever recall. Sights I could recall, body position, and other applications yes, but as far as trigger feel and hearing the rounds-both were a dull feeling.

I was one of the guys DocGKR called, I just didn't know why the question came up until I read this thread. My conclusion is like many things. With a ton of proper training, the way Todd teaches the trigger press will work and can be done when combined by an equal investment in threat evaluation. Some will invest in this. A majority of cops will be pretty good with the threat evaluation and never put in the range work. On a similar vein, those who are exceptional and very fast dedicated shooters are often not investing in the evaluation skills. I was lucky that I was getting a salary to do both. My repayment to the tax payer for all that ammunition was investing in the time and hard experience to not shoot the good tax payers, and to hit the predators who prey on them.

Hopefully, I didn't lay a huge turd in the pool on my first post, but I hope that I can have a good exchange with many of those here who i have enjoyed bantering with on other forums.

ToddG
07-19-2011, 07:20 AM
I have pointed a firearm with intent at thousands of people

That's the major difference, I think. For most of us (including many LEOs in different parts of the country) we're not pointing guns at people unless we intend to shoot them right now. In other words, the threat ID and decision to fire get made prior to drawing the gun. As such, getting the gun out, on target, and making loud noise ASAP is the priority. In that instance, prepping as part of the press-out becomes important because it improves accuracy and saves time. Time is important. I've already determined that there is an imminent lethal threat... the quicker my gun is sending forth projectiles, the better.

If someone said, "Hey, point your gun at this guy but don't shoot him," could I draw my gun without putting my finger on the trigger? Of course. I don't put my finger on the trigger when handling the gun administratively, when I clean it, etc. Good finger safety discipline is one of the things that gets drummed into your head in competition, actually. If anything, the rules in IDPA/IPSC are stricter than what many would consider acceptable in "The Real World."

The threat ID thing is its own complicated and critically important issue. It's just the nature of most firearms training, but people rarely practice not shooting a target. It's one thing to throw some no-shoots up on the range... but under most circumstances people are making the shoot/don't-shoot decision many seconds (or many minutes) in advance. And that's just ridiculously unrealistic. It's another to put someone under stress and then make him figure out whether that target he suddenly sees for the first time needs to be shot right now. But that's probably deserving of its own thread...

Dagga Boy
07-19-2011, 04:14 PM
Todd, I would disagree with a bit of that. For most people, we never intend to draw without firing, but the reality is that we usually don't. I intended to shot every person I ever drew on. I just didn't have all the pieces of the puzzle in place to actually start and finish a trigger press. This also applies to civilians. Even the LEO's in Barney Fife county will draw more often than they ever shoot. I think if we look at the number of crimes stopped by the "presence" of a firearm is FAR more than actual civilian shootings.

My biggest point is this: In every shooting I have first hand worked, I have found that in almost every case the shooter went into autopilot and reverted back to their most in-grained training. For most of the cops, that was the police academy. That is where the problem lies. When I was in the academy, sights were not allowed to be used till after 7 yards, and from there it was essentially a PPC course. No wonder cops generally have horrible results in actual shootings. If you are training to start on the press before you are on target and justified to shoot on a human adversary........things may or may not go well. I have been on the trigger press in several cases where things "changed" between the start and finish of that press. One that is applicable here is the case of a mentally deranged young man who was also on drugs who started to charge me with a kitchen knife. Easy day...made the decision to shoot, front sight on his chest, started my trigger press, and my sight picture abruptly changed as his mother threw herself at him and in between him and I . Luckily I didn't center punch him through his mom. Probably justified, but not one you want to live with as a "success". That happened in the "tenths of seconds" range. That is the real world. I am 100% all for advanced mechanical shooting training. With that said, we need to mix in some evaluation training and practical application when we are applying that shooting to the solution of a use of force problem. My experience has mirrored what Ken Hackathorn talks about with being on autopilot during a real life shooting. In that case my auto pilot settings better be in the right position for the problem I am trying to solve.

jetfire
07-19-2011, 04:22 PM
Not shooting a no-shoot was simply an illustration that the act of staging the trigger can in fact be stopped in mid-press. You apparently did it yourself with your kitchen knife scenario as well.

The point was that prepping the trigger is part of the firing process, like Todd said, not the drawing process. Stepping into a blind IDPA stage and drawing my gun, I've already made the conscious decision to fire because there is a high probability that the first thing I see will be a threat target.

Which brings me around to an interesting point - as a non-LEO, I actually feel very strongly that people shouldn't draw their firearms unless they're in a situation which warrants deadly force. As a general rule of thumb, I wouldn't want to draw my gun unless I was also legally justified to fire my gun in any given situation.

ToddG
07-19-2011, 05:09 PM
From hand moving toward gun to shot fired, I'm well under a second for a decent hit on a person's torso at 7yd. If the decision to fire is made, by the time my draw begins to the time the shot is fired is pretty darn shot, and thus the odds of some new information coming to light in that sub-second timeframe that I will have time to process and have time to act on is seemingly slim. Perhaps it's just a difference of terminology, but when I say I am drawing 'with the intent to shoot' I mean breaking the shot as soon as possible. I've already done all the identifying and assessing I need to begin the "shoot him" program.

Dagga Boy
07-19-2011, 07:00 PM
Nice thoughts in a perfect world. As most know, I will defer to the "shooters" on the expertise and training programs for the mechanical shooting part. Getting there is "my lane". Reality check #1-If you are drawing straight from the holster to firing with all threat evaluation already done.......you are already working from WAY behind the curve. The ability to be ahead of the threat has a much higher probability for winning. One of the phrases I've used in regards to my last shooting is "playing quickdraw in a bar with me is a bad idea.....playing quickdraw when my gun is already out is really playing a losing hand."
I have won more fights by being ahead of that fight. Crooks are not stupid when it comes to being predators. They like praying on the weak with high odds of success. They do not do well when they are not in control. Again, it comes down to what are you training for? Do you need to be training for "coming from behind", which is what you are doing when you are starting from the holster-Hell Yes. I just like to remind folks of where you are setting your "auto pilot". SOme folks can stage that trigger and be just fine........many shouldn't. One of the terms that comes up with the folks I train with is being "hot on the trigger". There are many pitfalls with this and it needs to be part of the conversation and where humans are involved.

I have come to the conclusion that many of these techniques are not for everyone. They are part of the building block. I was in a special Vickers class with a well known trainer who has a similar background to mine. We both realized that we were holding our performance back because we were doing what we were training our students to do based on their capabilities and not ours. Examples would be trigger reset after recoil instead of during, and use of the slide release vs. sling-shoting the slide on Glocks. We could improve our speed by changing some things, but most of our students would have problems. People with a advanced level of training are far ahead of the curve on trigger control. Staging is not a technique for those who we can barely get to keep their finger off the trigger.

Todd, you would be amazed at how much information comes available in the sub second time frame in a crisis. Time really slows down. I have never found the time slow down in any class or competition (keep in mind, I was a competitive shooter during the stone age). The only time I have seen "time stand still" has been in shootings, car crashes and the like. To this day, I can remember the conversation in my head during the bar shooting......

"that guy is pulling a Beretta model 84B from the front of his waistband...13 rounds of .380......I can't let him raise that because he can shoot me above the armor, so I will close the distance while I am pressing the trigger so that I crush his drawstroke and won't let him extend........bang (from retention just prior to physical contact on the move)......

This all occurred in a fraction of a second. Just saying that a lot happens in the second that is a gunfight.

ToddG
07-19-2011, 07:44 PM
In a perfect world, I'd be legally justified in drawing my gun anytime "citizen safety" was uttered. But unfortunately, at least here in Maryland, that doesn't give quite the same luxury as "officer safety." As such, yes, the gun doesn't get to come out until the decision to shoot has been made. If I draw or even brandish the gun before I've got legal justification to use lethal force, instantly I'm the criminal and the other guy is the victim.

As for the speed at which things are processed, either it happens fast enough for me to change course or it doesn't. Perhaps it's part and parcel with the above situation (can't draw until I know I'm going to shoot), but my conscience is pretty clear if the other guy has given me cause to shoot regardless of what he might do in the ensuing half of a second.

DocGKR
07-20-2011, 12:35 AM
Welcome Nyeti! For those of you who do not know him, Nyeti is an extremely capable, experienced and respected real world shooter, trainer, and expert in his field. He will be a a valuable asset to the forum.

Dagga Boy
07-20-2011, 01:49 AM
Welcome Nyeti! For those of you who do not know him, Nyeti is an extremely capable, experienced and respected real world shooter, trainer, and expert in his field. He will be a a valuable asset to the forum.

That is the wrong guy...........I'm the broken down retired street cop whose last real job was working as a security guard at an elementary school......:cool:. Thanks Doc, when I saw all the familiar folks here and the quality of the posts and discussions, I figured this may be a fun place to hang out and exchange ideas and different perspectives on firearms training.

JHC
07-20-2011, 08:07 AM
+1 to Doc's welcome. I've long been interested in your input on the whole range of topics on LF. Funny is that is wasn't that long ago that I connected the dots and realized I'd been reading your magazine articles with great interest for years. ;)

Best regards.

phidelta308
07-20-2011, 09:06 AM
I'm new to carrying, and living in a restrictive state, can only carry around the house. I've only recently been able to practice live fire drawing from a holster and pressing out at the range. I like the press out technique. It helps me manage the heavy DA trigger pull on my Beretta 92. I don't start prepping the trigger until I've got a rough sight picture. I want to make sure that a miss still hits the backstop at the range, not the ceiling/floor/target trolley/etc.

Recently, I had to help my room mate break up a dog fight between his pitbull and his brother's pitbull. I was at home, so I was carrying. A dog fight is scary, and I had a full adrenaline dump. After we got the dogs separated, he asked me to put my gun away and help him get the dogs to the vet. Even a couple of minutes after the whole thing was over, the motor skills required to unload and stow my pistol in the safe were a challenge.

In light of that event, I can't imagine making a threat assessment as I'm prepping the trigger and then deciding not to shoot. I don't think I would have the fine control to do it in a real threat situation. I'm with Todd on this, if I've made the decision to draw in a real life encounter, the threat ID has already been made, as has the decision to shoot.

SouthNarc
07-20-2011, 11:21 AM
There are three people I can remember, alive today because I was able to stop a trigger press midway to the shot breaking when the situation changed. One of those was a homeowner on a residential alarm call who confronted me around a blind corner with a gun in hand. He dropped his gun when he saw me extending to alignment.

Cops as a group may not be shooters but they get far more experence in split second threat evaluation than probably any other group. Plus most cops aren't thinking "Front sight, press" when they are drawing with the intention to fire. Due to institutional risk aversion MOST cops are thinking "Fuck, I'm gonna' be in trouble". Now that's wrong, BUT it does keep police officers pretty prudent as a group on firing.

SLG
07-20-2011, 08:31 PM
My experience with pressouts in real life mirrors Southnarc's. I've not shot several people as a result of being able to stop my trigger pull. However, I firmly believe that had I shot them anyway, I would have been completely justified. The gun was in my hand well before the decision to shoot was made, and my trigger finger was off the trigger until the last second when I decided they needed to be shot. One guy dropped his knife just as I began my pressout, and so he didn't get shot. I'm glad it worked out that way, for both of us.

However, I don't think that you should count on being able to stop in time, just that it is obviously possible. Any shoot/no shoot determination needs to be made BEFORE the pressout, not during. In the case of the guy with the knife, it was dark out and a low probability shot on the side of his head, so my pressout was relatively slow. In other cases, I can see how you would not be able to stop in time.

Honestly, I don't really see what all the fuss is about. We seem to agree that a pressout is a part of the trigger pull, NOT the draw. Once you decide to shoot, a pressout gives you a better trigger pull, in most cases, compared to other techniques for pulling the trigger. How you can argue with faster, more accurate hits, ONCE THE DECISION TO SHOOT HAS BEEN MADE, I really don't understand.

The pressout allows me to place highly accurate fire at great speed. I would not want to be the guy who missed, hit an innocent, and then had to explain in court why I knowingly disregarded a better technique. I realize that is an unlikely angle in court, but I hope you see my point.