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rsa-otc
08-12-2014, 08:17 AM
Anyone who has read my posts on reloading know I have been a proponent of coated bullets; particularly the Hi Tech Coating offered by Bayou Bullets and SNS Casting. I have always had superior results from both manufactures. Loadings have been, 9mm, 38 special and 45 acp using Bullseye, Clays, Red Dot and Titegroup powders.

Until now.

I recently purchased an M&P40 Full size and ordered up 500 - 180 grain .401 bullets from SNS casting. My plan was to use a light 40 S&W load in IDPA SSP until I could acquire a 9mm conversion barrel for my new toy. My first loading was 3.8 grains of Titegroup (.2 grain below the book starting charge). During my first session I chronographed this load at 903 FPS for a power factor of 162. A tad hotter than I wanted, but as a starting load I would take it. Problem being that it is extremely smoky and severely leads the 2nd half of the barrel. After cleaning the barrel (What a PITA) I tried again at this month IDPA match. Again smoky and heavily leaded the barrel, this time to the point that the 2nd half of the barrel looked like a smooth bore after only 90 rounds. The only time I have seen a barrel that bad was when someone shot soft lead reloads out of a Glock. By the time I got to the man on man Dueling tree match I lost in the third round to the eventual winner. In that round I couldn’t hit ONE of the 6 inch plates at 10 yards. After three days of effort and I am still removing lead from the barrel. A Lewis Lead Remover for .40 in on its way from Brownells.

I have previously used 3.8 of Titegroup under 160 Grain 38 special and 230 grain 45 acp SNS Casting bullets with good results and no issues.

I have inspected the barrel and see no issues that would lead me to believe it was a barrel issue.

I don’t know maybe SNS got a bad batch of coating? Maybe the dynamics of the cylinder gap on the revolver and the larger case capacity & bullet base on the 45 make the difference.

I now have in house 140 grain Bayou bullets to try, I’ll let you know after Saturday how they make out.

Trooper224
08-12-2014, 08:26 AM
I'm a big proponent of Hi Tech coating as well. In 9mm I use a 124 grain coated SNS bullet over 3.6 grains of either Bullseye or Titegroup to good effect. Sounds like the bullet might be undersize. Maybe going with a slightly larger one would help?

Alpha Sierra
08-12-2014, 08:28 AM
You might want to slug the barrel to see if the ID grows as you go out to the muzzle. If it does, you lose obturation, get gas blow by, and burn off the coating/strip the lead off the bullet.

That's my theory anyway.

All the coated bullet mfgs I have spoken to cast their bullets in the 16 - 18 Brinell range and trust the coating to prevent leading. Normally, that would be too hard of an alloy to properly obturate and seal at anything under magnum cartridge pressures.

rsa-otc
08-12-2014, 08:39 AM
According to SNS I should be able to push these things to 1500 fps with no issues. I'm going to mic the bullets tonight when I get home and see what I get as well.

Alpha Sierra
08-12-2014, 09:53 AM
You should re-check the SSP rules, because I believe caliber conversions are not allowed.

rsa-otc
08-12-2014, 10:32 AM
True, at a sanctioned match I would have to run the 40 S&W barrel for SSP or run in ESP with the 9mm. Our local clubs don't push that rule hard and will let me shoot the 9mm barrel as long as that is the only change. Truth be told if I get the load selection and springs right I should be able to come up with the 125 PF in 40 S&W. The only reason I am making the switch from CDP is to reduce some of the wear and tear on my arms and shoulders.

m91196
08-12-2014, 12:37 PM
Everyone around these parts uses something slower burning for their coated bullets. Also make sure your not over crimping. Solo, N320, WST are common favorites, although these may be leftover thoughts from the moly bullet heyday I like titegroup for its accuracy and efficiency in 9mm plated it does get hot

okie john
08-12-2014, 05:23 PM
When you start talking about cast bullets, a lot of variables have to be brought into harmony: bullet hardness, lube, pressure, velocity, diameter, etc. A mismatch with any of those could cause your woes. Several things stand out for me as areas to investigate:


Your charge is below the minimum. Everyone knows not to go beyond the max, but sometimes starting below the minimum can be just as problematic. The fact that you’re getting a lot of smoke with a powder known for burning cleanly make me think that you’re not getting a complete burn. Add to that the fact that lead bullets have a lower co-efficient of friction than jacketed bullets, which lowers pressures and makes this worse. To address this, load a few dozen rounds with a charge of Titegroup that’s halfway between minimum and maximum and see how they work.
Try a different powder. The 38 Special and 45 ACP are known to work pretty well within a pretty wide range of pressures, while the 40 S&W is and always has been a pretty hot number. There may be ways to take it into the lower end of the spectrum, and Titegroup may not be one of them.
Coating problems could be the culprit. It might not hurt to call the manufacturer and see if they have any wisdom. Their home page does say that you need to be careful with belling case mouths and with crimping, so that’s a good place to start. I’ve found that a Lee Factory Crimp Die can be a great help with this.
Your pistol’s bore diameter may be a little bigger than spec. Cast bullets should be a minimum of 0.001” over groove diameter for best results. Going 0.002” or 0.003” over might even be required. I've done that with a Glock that keyholed with 0.356" bullets at 25 yards. With a 0.358" slug, it now shoots as well as it does with Hornady XTPs.
To clean heavily-leaded bores, I use a piece of a Chore Boy pot scrubber wrapped around an old Glock nylon bore brush. http://www.amazon.com/Chore-Boy%C2%AE-Copper-Scrubbers-Pack/dp/B000RO5JC8/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1407881869&sr=8-3&keywords=chore+boy+scrubbers It will get a barrel clean in minutes without a lot of work.

Keep us posted on your progress.


Okie John

NETim
08-12-2014, 05:28 PM
Re: The Chore Boy trick. Ensure the material is indeed copper. Some are copper coated steel. This trick does work well for removing lead.

rsa-otc
08-12-2014, 06:09 PM
Okie John;

All good hints and things I need to look into.

I do bell the case mouth so as not to scrape off the coating. I pulled two bullets from my loaded rounds to see if the coating was intact and it seemed to be.

I have been using a Lee Factory Crimp die for a while now and loved it so much I got one for every caliber I load. I may be using too tight a Crimp although when I pulled the bullets the coating was still intact even at the crimp.

When I mic-ed the to bullets I pulled they seemed a little small at .400 and .4005. At one point I even had a reading of .3995. When I measured a couple of the Bayou Bullets 140 grain bullets they came in consistently .401 and .4015. All readings were taken with the micrometer and bullets sitting on a perfectly flat surface so the micrometer was perpendicular to the bullet.

Again thanks for the hints I have loaded up some of the Bayou Bullets and will try them this weekend. I'll let you know how I fair.

dsa
08-12-2014, 10:12 PM
Okie John;


I have been using a Lee Factory Crimp die for a while now and loved it so much I got one for every caliber I load. I may be using too tight a Crimp although when I pulled the bullets the coating was still intact even at the crimp.



A much more experienced reloader than I am told me that the Lee Factory Crimp die causes more problems than it solves. He stated that it can actually swage the bullet during the crimping process.

SecondsCount
08-12-2014, 10:22 PM
I shot thousands of 155 grain lead bullets with the traditional lube ring through my M&P40 and could not believe how clean the bore was. I used Ramshot Silhouette which is a much slower powder and gave excellent accuracy. I dabbled with Winchester WST but started shooting more 9mm around that time and the M&P has been in the safe ever since.

okie john
08-13-2014, 01:53 AM
A much more experienced reloader than I am told me that the Lee Factory Crimp die causes more problems than it solves. He stated that it can actually swage the bullet during the crimping process.

Yep.

I wouldn't be surprised at all to see that IF the die was screwed down too far, and it sounds like the OP might have that going on. Just use it to knock the bell off of the case mouth and you should be OK.


Okie John

okie john
08-13-2014, 02:01 AM
I shot thousands of 155 grain lead bullets with the traditional lube ring through my M&P40 and could not believe how clean the bore was. I used Ramshot Silhouette which is a much slower powder and gave excellent accuracy.

I've been shooting traditional designs for over 40 years. I prefer Unique, which many people consider the moral equivalent of FFFg. But if you stick to full-power loads, it's neither smoky nor dirty. Bullet lube is the real culprit there.


Okie John

rsa-otc
08-13-2014, 05:33 AM
A much more experienced reloader than I am told me that the Lee Factory Crimp die causes more problems than it solves. He stated that it can actually swage the bullet during the crimping process.

Actually I think dsa may have the answer. It's not that the die is screwed down to far, but that the Factory Crimp Die has a carbide sizing ring in the base/bottom to do a final sizing of the shell before the crimp which happens higher up in the die and is adjustable separate from the die depth it self. If Lee figured that people loading .40 S&W were going to shoot only jacketed ammo sized at .400 and set up this die that way then when it runs over the case it's swaging the bullet down to .400. That would explain why the rounds that I have pulled from my previously loaded ammo mic-ed out at .3995 to .4005 rather than the manufacturers spec-ed .401. The variance I had was probably due to the differing case wall thickness.

I probably didn't encounter this problem with the 38 & 45 dies because Lee knows at least half the re-loaders use lead bullets in their loads and accounted for that when they designed the dies.

I'm going to remove the Factory Crimp die and adjust the seating die to perform the crimping process and load up 50 rounds and see how that makes out Saturday as well.

Thanks again guys you probably saved me a lot of grief over the next month or so reducing my time shooting.

I'll let you know how I make out.

rsa-otc
08-17-2014, 04:34 AM
Went to the range today with the following samples;
50 - Bayou Bullets 140 grain FPs, 3.4 grains of Titegroup that had been loaded using the Lee Factory Crimp Die and the same crimp as I had used previously with the problematic 180 grain loads.
50 - Bayou Bullets 140 grain FPs, 3.8 grains of Titegroup not using the Lee die and barely crimped.

Results :
With regards to the Factory Crimp Die inconclusive. Neither load showed signs of leading or smoke. It may have been because of the reduced charge on the one using the die or maybe even the reduced weight of the bullet. Either way I am just going to forego the factory crimp die in the future, the reloading process was much smoother without it.

Some other interesting observations:
The 140 FPs when you look at them closely have a slightly sharper nose profile then the 180s. This causes the bullet to hit the top of the chamber later in the feed process and the bullet is at a much sharper angle to the chamber resulting in a feedway failure about 60% of the time. I am going to have to load them to a longer COL compared to the 180s to alleviate this issue.

When I ran the 140s loaded with the same 3.8 grains of Titegroup as the 180s over the chronograph they were approximately 60-70 fps slower than the 180s. This is something I have not experienced before. When I checked the barrel for leading I noticed indications of incomplete powder burn. The heavier weight bullet must be holding the process up long enough to get a complete burn resulting in more velocity.

My next attempt will be using 4 grains of Titegroup, slightly longer COL (after checking the chambering in the barrel removed from the gun) and a slightly heavier crimp.

This has been an interesting and enjoyable process because I am learning new things. In the past with 38s, 45s and even the little bit of 9mm I have played with, I have pretty much been able to easily get what I want out of a round with much less fuss. The problem is that it has been equally frustrating because I am spending so much time futzing and it is impacting my shooting time. The whole reason I reload is to be able to afford to put more rounds down range.

rsa-otc
09-14-2014, 05:30 AM
250 rounds of coated bullets down range today resulting in NO barrel leading. Just the way I like it.

150 Bayou Bullets 140 grain flat points & 106 Bayou Bullets 180 grain flat points.

At this time I have ditched the Lee Factory Crimp die and replaced it with a Hornady Tapper Crimp die with minimal crimp. Using just the seating die for crimping resulted in disruption of the coating since it was still pushing the bullet down while crimping. So for $25 shipped the Hornady die was worth it.

I have settled on the following loads for my use.

180 grain coated flat point over 3.0 of Titegroup resulting in 707 average velocity giving me a power factor of 127. The standard deviation for this load was 18.47. 3.2 grains of Titegroup actually gave me the best consistency with a standard deviation of 7.2 but the velocity jumped resulting in a PF of 142.

140 grain coated flat point over 4.2 grains of Titegroup results in a 908 average velocity coming in at a 127 power factor. The standard deviation on this load was 30.22. As I noted previously my gun requires me to load these a tad long for proper feeding.

I am going with the 180 grain loading going forward as my predominant ammo for the following reasons. To me the 180 shoots softer than the 140 grain bullets even though they are virtually the same PF. More consistent load with a lower standard deviation. While the 140 grain bullets cost less, powder is in short supply and the 180 grain load uses 1.2 grains less powder to get where I need to be. I got a 2 inch group out of the 180 bullets at 25 yards so they are plenty accurate.

Thanks everyone for your help.

LHS
09-16-2014, 09:07 PM
For the record, this kind of post is awesome. I'm a neophyte reloader, and seeing other folks have some tribulations and get good information on how to deal with it gives me a lot of information on my own reloading issues. Thanks for everything!

ranger
09-20-2014, 10:02 PM
There are a number of posts on forums oriented toward competition pistol (USPSA-IDPA) that postulate that Titegroup is not the best choice for lead or coated lead bullets because it yields more smoke with lead or coated. Titegroup is a very popular powder for jacketed bullets however.

rsa-otc
09-21-2014, 06:35 AM
There are a number of posts on forums oriented toward competition pistol (USPSA-IDPA) that postulate that Titegroup is not the best choice for lead or coated lead bullets because it yields more smoke with lead or coated. Titegroup is a very popular powder for jacketed bullets however.

No doubt. Titegroup burns extremely hot and it is probably not ideal. My preferred powder at this point is Clays or Clay Dot. During this powder shortage I was only able to come across this 8 lb can of Titegroup group. So far I have had no issues with my 38 special loads which I tend to load towards the top end of the charts or my 45s which are loaded towards the middle to low end of the charts. I must say I have found Titegroup to be very consistent yielding low standard deviations when you find the sweet spot.

Now that I have the problems worked out with my 40 S&W loads I am not seeing any powder related issues at this point. I did have a round that would not chamber at the match yesterday that messed me up. Shame on me for not chamber checking my loads before a match, l had gotten out of the habit when I started using the Lee Factory Crimp die.

So far the smoke has not been problematic for me.

I will be posting a video of one of the stages @ yesterday's match in my training log once the results are posted. You can judge for yourself concerning any smoke issues.

rsa-otc
09-21-2014, 08:24 AM
I will be posting a video of one of the stages @ yesterday's match in my training log once the results are posted. You can judge for yourself concerning any smoke issues.

Rather than making you wait for them to post the match results here's the video.


http://youtu.be/hhIcRP8rqQs