View Full Version : S&W 1076
Fot the last 15 years, perhaps longer, I have been flirting with the 10mm. Originally out of intrigue for the cartridge, later after moving to Alaska, and wanting the most power (read bear capability) in a carry friendly semi-auto platform.
I have had a number of 1911 pistols in 10mm, and still have a Colt Delta tuned by JoJo's that has never malfunctioned. I go hot and cold on 1911 pistols, and have been cold for the last 5+ years. I have a number of S&W revolvers in 10mm, but I don't like the practicality, or lack thereof, of moon clips in the field. And, I always am struck with the notion that I should be carrying .44 magnum if I am packing a N frame. My wife and I have a pile of Glock 20 and 29 pistols. Lots going for them, but the loads that seem most attractive on an animal, also seem the farthest out the reliability envelope on the Glock.
Recently BOM suggested a 1076. For years, I was as interested in a big S&W DA/SA as eating carrots and beets -- meaning not that much. I humored him and started looking on Gunbroker. They are rare and expensive. I missed a never fired one, my bad, but recently got one with enough magazines to support it. Initial impressions are quite favorable. It is heavy, beefy and has a surprisingly good DA trigger. SA trigger is fine as a field pistol. Not keen about three dot sights, and am unsure whether there is a better alternative? Ergonomically, I can see how it would not be well received by many rank and file FBI personnel, especially those with small hands, and would make a P229R DAK seem like a thing of beauty.
Haven't shot an extensive session with it, but fired a mix of ammo, including Underwood TMJ, Black Talon and Hornady XTP. It functioned fine and was pleasant to shoot. While I wouldn't want to take it to a USPSA match or urban shooting, it seems like a very neat field pistol for launching heavier 10mm loads. I look forward to getting to know it better, and with caribou, moose and brown bear season coming up, should get some time to drag it around the field as my back-up.
LSP972
08-09-2014, 07:26 PM
My wife and I have a pile of Glock 20 and 29 pistols. Lots going for them, but the loads that seem most attractive on an animal, also seem the farthest out the reliability envelope on the Glock.
I would guess you're talking about hard-cast SWC bullets, pushed hard?
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I would guess you're talking about hard-cast SWC bullets, pushed hard?
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No, I am even talking about 200 FMJ bullets at 1,200 fps, as loaded by Corbon and Buffalo Bore, which have been proven unreliable in at least a half dozen different Glock 20 and 29 pistols of Gen 3, Gen 3 SF and Gen 4 type.
LSP972
08-09-2014, 08:24 PM
No, I am even talking about 200 FMJ bullets at 1,200 fps, as loaded by Corbon and Buffalo Bore, which have been proven unreliable in at least a half dozen different Glock 20 and 29 pistols of Gen 3, Gen 3 SF and Gen 4 type.
Interesting. Have you explored the reasons why?
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Trijicon makes night sights for it.
https://www.trijicon.com/na_en/products/product2_bntns.php?mid=16
So does Novak's:
http://www.novaksights.com/products/sights/models/s&w3rd45.html
45dotACP
08-09-2014, 09:14 PM
Seems odd about the G20s. But a 1076 is just a mad sweet pistol. Do need pics though. ;)
Clyde from Carolina
08-09-2014, 09:19 PM
Interesting. Have you explored the reasons why?
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Love to hear the answer to this question.
I don't know enough to add anything of value to this thread, but I fantasize about retiring to Alaska, so of course I listen when George and BOM say pretty much anything Alaska or SIG-related or otherwise.
I'm all attention.
Nice pistol, G!
Looking forward to hearing how you solve the NS question!
John Hearne
08-09-2014, 10:10 PM
Grey Guns 10mm conversion for Sig P220ST - just sayin......
Interesting. Have you explored the reasons why?
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Sure. I have experimented, discussed it with a friend at the Glock mothership, with Chuck Haggard and others on and off line.
This is informed speculation and not science. The Glock 20 was developed early 90's, presumably for the FBI contract. The kinds of loads tested by the factory during development were "classic" JHP type loads. To my knowledge, the factory has done no testing with 200 and 220 grain, penetrator style loads. At the time the Glock 20 was developed, I am not aware those sorts of loads were commercially available.
When I started shooting the Glock 20, I lived in the lower 48. I can't remember all the loads I shot, but I recall Hornady 180 and 200 XTP loads, Black Talon and Silvertips. After moving to Alaska in 2002, I started to become interested in penetrator loads. Mostly I carried a .44 back then, and so did most folks I encountered in the field. Ted Nugent started making noise about the Glock 20, and Corbon ammo. They had a 180 bonded style hunting load, the 155 Barnes and a 200 grain penetrator load. The stuff was hideously expensive. My wife and I bought some and started shooting it in our Glock 20 and 29 pistols. No problem with the 155 Barnes load, but intermittent problems with the 200 penetrator. We hypothesized too much slide velocity was the issue and tried Wolff heavier springs and their guide rod. It didn't seem to matter whether we used those or the OEM assembly. Tried a Barsto barrel, with no difference. This continued as we got SF models. Finally, we got Gen 4 models, thinking the different recoil spring in the 20 would help. It didn't. By that time, we had tried Buffalo Bore, which was the worst of all in reliability. For a while we thought Double Tap 200 ran, right up until the time I plugged a spruce hen through the head with my G29, and a slightly injured wrist, and the pistol malfunctioned. My Glock friend had also heard reports from field workers in AK also experiencing reliability issues with the Glock 20 and the heavy loads.
That started us down the path of trying the Glock 22 and KKM barrels with 200 DT hard cast last summer. Short answer is that turned out not to be reliable, especially with less rounds left in the magazine. Interestingly, so far the FNS .40 feeds DT 200 hard cast, both with a firm two hand group, and "loosy-goosy" with one hand. In the mean time, we have been successful in the 10mm Glock pistols so far with Underwood 200 TMJ, and our old standby 200 Hornady XTP.
If the Glocks will not reliably feed a load capable of penetrating the skull of a bear, it kind of defeats the purpose of carrying 10mm over another semi auto caliber. I bought a bunch of the new Federal Trophy Bonded 10mm load, and have Underwood 200 TMJ, that I plan to first test in the 1076. If that works, I will then test the Corbon and Buffalo Bore that routinely chokes the Glock pistols. My belief is that while the Glock 20 is scaled up for the Glock 17, and weighs more, it is not scaled up enough to shoot the loads that interest me most in 10mm. Time will tell if the 1076 runs. The 10mm Glock pistols just don't have the numbers out there in use, and more importantly, the high round counts testing heavy ammo. If the G17 or 19 didn't feed 124+P Gold Dot or HST, it would practically cause an alert through the industry. 10mm is very much a niche, with most users of the heavy loads buying a box or two of 20 cartridges, loading their mag and calling it good. 10mm just doesn't benefit from that level of accumulated user experience associated with the 9mm and .40 Glock pistols.
Stephen
08-09-2014, 10:23 PM
It seems kind of silly to make and sell 10mm ammo that won't run in the Glock 20/29 since they probably constitute the majority of 10mm pistols in use.
How do your 1911s run with the rhino rollers, G? I would think you could at least tune them for them.
It seems kind of silly to make and sell 10mm ammo that won't run in the Glock 20/29 since they probably constitute the majority of 10mm pistols in use.
Based on my experience, I think Buffalo Bore and Corbon should put a caution in the product description for these heavy loads and unsuitability for use in the Glock 20 and 29. The reality with many boutique ammo companies, is it is "buyer beware."
GardoneVT
08-09-2014, 10:42 PM
Has the OP or anyone else contacted S&W regarding spare parts for the 10mm models?
I ask because as stout as the pistol is, eventually something may break on it-and recently a forum member on the S&W board found out the hard way his broken 4506 wasn't repairable by the factory for lack of parts. IIRC they offered him trade in towards an M&P45 as compensation.
Here is my 1076, just good clean, not a show piece:
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/10761_zps03e404c1.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/10761_zps03e404c1.jpg.html)
Here is a Gideon that Dale Fricke made for my Glock 29, with Safariland QLS compatible holes. I was scrounging around in my holster collection and realized this for the G29 fit the 1076 good enough until Dale makes me a Gideon, Gideon with QLS hole spacing and an appendix holster for it:
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/10762_zps1eb4508d.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/10762_zps1eb4508d.jpg.html)
Interested to hear about your accuracy results, G.
1slow
08-09-2014, 11:30 PM
I had the same issues as GJM with Buffalo Bore 180gr 10mm. I had thought that BB 180 out of a 6" GL20 hunting barrel would be the stuff. No joy ! Tried 22lb recoil springs no luck.
I am shooting mainly P30 9mm and HK45 now. Is there any .45acp load that approaches the penetration of 10mm ?
At this point for big animals: I would use 4" .44mag S&W, Bowen Redhawk 4" .500 Linebaugh or 5.5" .475 Linebaugh, 4" S&W .500.
I had hopes for a service type auto that would do for criminal attackers and animals.
LSP552
08-10-2014, 09:40 AM
Grey Guns 10mm conversion for Sig P220ST - just sayin......
Except I seem to remember they were for use with the mid-range loads only. Am I correct in this?
Ken
LSP552
08-10-2014, 09:48 AM
I remember the local Sheriff's Office here jumped on the Smith 10mm after the FBI. IIRC, They had nothing but trouble with several hundred guns and the factory sent folks at least twice trying to make them run. They didn't keep them long and they were pretty much hated by the rank and file for being heavy and unreliable. The Sheriff at that time was a retired FBI guy, so naturally anything they did was best.
LSP972 might remember some of the specific issues.
Ken
I remember the local Sheriff's Office here jumped on the Smith 10mm after the FBI. IIRC, They had nothing but trouble with several hundred guns and the factory sent folks at least twice trying to make them run. They didn't keep them long and they were pretty much hated by the rank and file for being heavy and unreliable. The Sheriff at that time was a retired FBI guy, so naturally anything they did was best.
LSP972 might remember some of the specific issues.
Ken
Unless I believed 10mm has mythical properties as a people cartridge, and I don't, I would be mucho unhappy if someone foisted the 1076 on me as a duty weapon. It is long in the grip, heavy, has relatively low capacity, and is one of the first pistols I can't reach the slide stop with my dominant right thumb.
My interest is purely if they reliably launch the heavier/faster 10mm loads, as a compromise animal/town pistol. And, I like DA/SA pistols. BOM says his 1076 runs perfectly, and they have that reputation with other owners. I wouldn't be surprised if they had problems when first introduced, and my 1076 has two dots under the decocker signifying it was modified by S&W as part of a model recall. They are quite rare and bring a crazy premium on GunBroker, as in $1,000 for a minty one.
LSP552
08-10-2014, 10:46 AM
My interest is purely if they reliably launch the heavier/faster 10mm loads, as a compromise animal/town pistol. And, I like DA/SA pistols. BOM says his 1076 runs perfectly, and they have that reputation with other owners. I wouldn't be surprised if they had problems when first introduced, and my 1076 has two dots under the decocker signifying it was modified by S&W as part of a model recall. They are quite rare and bring a crazy premium on GunBroker, as in $1,000 for a minty one.
I understand. Your experience is the reason I don't own a Glock 10mm. Good luck, and let us know how the full power stuff works.
Ken
Suvorov
08-10-2014, 10:59 AM
My 1006 has been a great albeit heavy pistol. Got it as a back country gun almost 20 years ago. While I haven't shot any of the boutique loads through it - I've never had any issue with the 180gr XTPs or 175gr Silvertips.
Mine came with the factory Smith adjustable tritium sights which despite being rather un attractive, are about as bullet proof as adjustable sights can get.
Unless I believed 10mm has mythical properties as a people cartridge, and I don't, I would be mucho unhappy if someone foisted the 1076 on me as a duty weapon. It is long in the grip, heavy, has relatively low capacity, and is one of the first pistols I can't reach the slide stop with my dominant right thumb.
Isn't the 1076 the "compact", or at least the more compact, version of the 1006? I have a 4506, and whenever I think a 5" 1911 is too big, I just pull out the 4506 and get a different perspective. I do agree, I wouldn't want to spend a bunch of time carrying one.
I'm not that familiar with the 1076, but has that tigger guard been rounded a bit? I know my 4506 has the square trigger guard, but I think they have changed through the years. If so, will that affect the holster from Fricke?
LSP972
08-10-2014, 05:35 PM
Sure. I have experimented, discussed it with a friend at the Glock mothership, with Chuck Haggard and others on and off line.
To my knowledge, the factory has done no testing with 200 and 220 grain, penetrator style loads. At the time the Glock 20 was developed, I am not aware those sorts of loads were commercially available.
Ah, so. You're talking rhino-rollers… which, in 10mm, would be rather substantial, I imagine.
Got it now; thanks for the detailed response.
.
LSP972
08-10-2014, 06:05 PM
LSP972 might remember some of the specific issues.
The main problem was, the 1076 was what they used to transition to semi-automatics. So, it was hard to tell… were the guns at fault, or was it a bunch of no-semi-auto-shooting/revolver-oriented cops to blame? As Ken said, they had it shoved down their throats. From what little I was hearing at the time, nobody was happy with the gun. They were very quiet about the whole deal; especially after the second flex/reflex response-induced ND caused a fatality.
Anyway, knowing what I know (and have left much of unsaid- no need to kick a sleeping dog), I rather doubt the guns were totally at fault there. The frame-mounted decocker S&W came up with was a last-minute, cobbled-together arrangement that had, from what I saw on these sheriff's office pistols and on other, similar guns (a few 5926s that our guys bought and carried), durability issues… and I think that is a good reason to tread lightly around one of these. IOW, shoot it carefully and gently; because there ain't no parts nor factory support.
Ken, remember Larry Leitz? He had a 5926, bought new in 1994. I saw him at the retiree shoot this year, toting a Glock. I asked if the 5926 finally broke; he grinned and nodded, adding that S&W told him "Tough bananas, we can't fix it."
Now before some of you think "Hey, 20 years is a good long time.", keep in mind that this particular example had probably less than 2K rounds through it that 20 years; probably closer to 1K.
Anyway… good luck with your piece GJM.
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LSP972
08-10-2014, 06:11 PM
Isn't the 1076 the "compact", or at least the more compact, version of the 1006?
Technically, yes… but the 1076 and its 5" big brother, the 1026, were different animals due to the frame-mount decocker. I forget the model # of the 4.25" version of the 1006. Any of the big-frame S&W 3rd generation pistols- but particularly those in 10mm caliber- are rather desirable (and priced accordingly) these days; there is one model # of .45 that only 150 or so examples of made it out of the factory. No imagination required to know that one of those is priced in the stratosphere.
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some commentary on the 1076:
http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=3170
data point, through a buddy who discussed this with Underwood. They had their 10mm JHP load tested, and determined it would not reliably penetrate the skull of a grizzly bear. Their FMJ load did. This is consistent with other "testing" I have heard on the .40 and bear skulls. My take away is you need a 10mm that will function with penetrator loads, or you might as well carry a .40.
I had the same issues as GJM with Buffalo Bore 180gr 10mm. I had thought that BB 180 out of a 6" GL20 hunting barrel would be the stuff. No joy ! Tried 22lb recoil springs no luck.
I am shooting mainly P30 9mm and HK45 now. Is there any .45acp load that approaches the penetration of 10mm ?
At this point for big animals: I would use 4" .44mag S&W, Bowen Redhawk 4" .500 Linebaugh or 5.5" .475 Linebaugh, 4" S&W .500.
I had hopes for a service type auto that would do for criminal attackers and animals.
Double Tap (back to boutique) offers a +P ACP loading with a 230 grain FMJ Flat Point loaded to 1,000 fps IIRC. That is going to be a penetrating mother kitten.
Suvorov
08-10-2014, 07:05 PM
some commentary on the 1076:
http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=3170
data point, through a buddy who discussed this with Underwood. They had their 10mm JHP load tested, and determined it would not reliably penetrate the skull of a grizzly bear. Their FMJ load did. This is consistent with other "testing" I have heard on the .40 and bear skulls. My take away is you need a 10mm that will function with penetrator loads, or you might as well carry a .40.
Do you know how much (if any) the .40s ability to handle 4 legged critters had in it being selected as the caliber of the Alaska Highway Patrol?
Do you know how much (if any) the .40s ability to handle 4 legged critters had in it being selected as the caliber of the Alaska Highway Patrol?
I don't know. For many years in the west and AK, suggesting 9mm to a LE department would not be well received. Friday, I was shooting with two local LE guys, one a Fed and the other local PD. One was issued a G23 and the other the 1911 in .45. Both would prefer now to carry 9mm, showing how far attitudes have come in the last few years. I would like to get a volunteer to shoot a few (live) brown bears in the skull with 9mm 124+P Gold Dot, and .357 Sig 125 bonded and XTP 147 grain, and let me know how it works out. :)
LSP552
08-10-2014, 07:45 PM
I would like to get a volunteer to shoot a few (live) brown bears in the skull with 9mm 124+P Gold Dot, and .357 Sig 125 bonded and XTP 147 grain, and let me know how it works out. :)
I'd be comfortable betting someone else's life that a 9mm 124+P Gold Dot would penetrate a skull at bad breath distance. But I'm probably still bringing my Blackhawk .45 just because.
Ken
I'd be comfortable betting someone else's life that a 9mm 124+P Gold Dot would penetrate a skull at bad breath distance. But I'm probably still bringing my Blackhawk .45 just because.
Ken
Based on taking Gunsite's backcountry course twice (the course is focused on bears and designed for folks that work and recreate in bear country), and having run a number of bear sims, I would rather that be a DA S&W revolver in .44 magnum or .45 long colt (with appropriate ammo), over any SA revolver. SA works fine hunting, but when in situations that one might encounter in a bear tussle, the DA revolver is much easier to fight with. (Just call me Darryl.)
If one was just in the field, the DA revolver makes a lot of sense. Where the semi auto shines, is as a back-up to a long gun, for mixed town use/concealment and near town around animals, and for targets like a pack of wolves.
Tom Duffy
08-10-2014, 08:39 PM
deleted
Chuck Haggard
08-10-2014, 09:04 PM
I hate to tell you, but those frame mounted decocker models had issues.
I hate to tell you, but those frame mounted decocker models had issues.
Chuck, I would be curious what the problems with the 1076 were, post the factory recall?
Malamute
08-10-2014, 09:28 PM
Based on taking Gunsite's backcountry course twice (the course is focused on bears and designed for folks that work and recreate in bear country), and having run a number of bear sims, I would rather that be a DA S&W revolver in .44 magnum or .45 long colt (with appropriate ammo), over any SA revolver. SA works fine hunting, but when in situations that one might encounter in a bear tussle, the DA revolver is much easier to fight with. (Just call me Darryl.)
If one was just in the field, the DA revolver makes a lot of sense. Where the semi auto shines, is as a back-up to a long gun, for mixed town use/concealment and near town around animals, and for targets like a pack of wolves.
I'm in general agreement regarding DA revolvers, though I understand the guy that was recently chewed on near your cabin used an SA Ruger 44 and managed to fire all 6 rounds one handed.
Woofs behave in a predatory manner towards people around here at times, though I haven't heard of them pressing the point after shots were fired. I'm still very wary of them. I always have a rifle handy and a few spare shells as well as a belt gun.
Mr Linebaugh mentioned a guy in Ak that was charged by a bear, he thought he shot once with his SA Ruger 45 with heavy loads, the bear turned and went back into the woods. When he reloaded his gun, 2 rounds were fired. He secured a rifle and followed it up, It had expired from the pistol hits from what I understand.
No, I am even talking about 200 FMJ bullets at 1,200 fps, as loaded by Corbon and Buffalo Bore, which have been proven unreliable in at least a half dozen different Glock 20 and 29 pistols of Gen 3, Gen 3 SF and Gen 4 type.
Liabilities of polymer frames that are whipping around like jello.
You can get buy with a plastic gun when the recoil is low. Crank it up, and they stumble all over the place.
WilsonCombatRep
08-11-2014, 06:46 AM
Sure. I have experimented, discussed it with a friend at the Glock mothership, with Chuck Haggard and others on and off line.
This is informed speculation and not science. The Glock 20 was developed early 90's, presumably for the FBI contract. The kinds of loads tested by the factory during development were "classic" JHP type loads. To my knowledge, the factory has done no testing with 200 and 220 grain, penetrator style loads. At the time the Glock 20 was developed, I am not aware those sorts of loads were commercially available.
When I started shooting the Glock 20, I lived in the lower 48. I can't remember all the loads I shot, but I recall Hornady 180 and 200 XTP loads, Black Talon and Silvertips. After moving to Alaska in 2002, I started to become interested in penetrator loads. Mostly I carried a .44 back then, and so did most folks I encountered in the field. Ted Nugent started making noise about the Glock 20, and Corbon ammo. They had a 180 bonded style hunting load, the 155 Barnes and a 200 grain penetrator load. The stuff was hideously expensive. My wife and I bought some and started shooting it in our Glock 20 and 29 pistols. No problem with the 155 Barnes load, but intermittent problems with the 200 penetrator. We hypothesized too much slide velocity was the issue and tried Wolff heavier springs and their guide rod. It didn't seem to matter whether we used those or the OEM assembly. Tried a Barsto barrel, with no difference. This continued as we got SF models. Finally, we got Gen 4 models, thinking the different recoil spring in the 20 would help. It didn't. By that time, we had tried Buffalo Bore, which was the worst of all in reliability. For a while we thought Double Tap 200 ran, right up until the time I plugged a spruce hen through the head with my G29, and a slightly injured wrist, and the pistol malfunctioned. My Glock friend had also heard reports from field workers in AK also experiencing reliability issues with the Glock 20 and the heavy loads.
That started us down the path of trying the Glock 22 and KKM barrels with 200 DT hard cast last summer. Short answer is that turned out not to be reliable, especially with less rounds left in the magazine. Interestingly, so far the FNS .40 feeds DT 200 hard cast, both with a firm two hand group, and "loosy-goosy" with one hand. In the mean time, we have been successful in the 10mm Glock pistols so far with Underwood 200 TMJ, and our old standby 200 Hornady XTP.
If the Glocks will not reliably feed a load capable of penetrating the skull of a bear, it kind of defeats the purpose of carrying 10mm over another semi auto caliber. I bought a bunch of the new Federal Trophy Bonded 10mm load, and have Underwood 200 TMJ, that I plan to first test in the 1076. If that works, I will then test the Corbon and Buffalo Bore that routinely chokes the Glock pistols. My belief is that while the Glock 20 is scaled up for the Glock 17, and weighs more, it is not scaled up enough to shoot the loads that interest me most in 10mm. Time will tell if the 1076 runs. The 10mm Glock pistols just don't have the numbers out there in use, and more importantly, the high round counts testing heavy ammo. If the G17 or 19 didn't feed 124+P Gold Dot or HST, it would practically cause an alert through the industry. 10mm is very much a niche, with most users of the heavy loads buying a box or two of 20 cartridges, loading their mag and calling it good. 10mm just doesn't benefit from that level of accumulated user experience associated with the 9mm and .40 Glock pistols.
Using the KKM comp/barrel and a 24# recoil spring in the Glock will allow it to (loudly) handle heavy loads.
1slow
08-11-2014, 08:20 AM
Using the KKM comp/barrel and a 24# recoil spring in the Glock will allow it to (loudly) handle heavy loads.
Will it work without the comp ?
Do you need stronger magazine springs ?
Liabilities of polymer frames that are whipping around like jello.
You can get buy with a plastic gun when the recoil is low. Crank it up, and they stumble all over the place.
That is definitely my experience with G-22s and 23s. Don't crank the velocity up too high or your next rounds might not feed. M&P's do a little better; P229's do much better.
That is definitely my experience with G-22s and 23s. Don't crank the velocity up too high or your next rounds might not feed. M&P's do a little better; P229's do much better.
I know right? Who'd have thought physics and materials science would pertain to firearms?
Using the KKM comp/barrel and a 24# recoil spring in the Glock will allow it to (loudly) handle heavy loads.
That KKM barrel/comp is a deal breaker. Leaving aside noise, it appears to protrude enough that my field holsters (AIWB, ALS and chest rigs) won't work.
How does the 1066 compare to a 1076 in durability?
I am hearing rumblings of problems with Gen 4 Glock 20 pistols. This link came from a friend with problems with his own Gen 4 20:
http://10mm-firearms.com/10mm-semi-auto-handguns/gen-4-ftf-%28nose-up%29/45/
Chuck Haggard
08-11-2014, 10:01 AM
Chuck, I would be curious what the problems with the 1076 were, post the factory recall?
That decocker is cheesy, regardless of recall.
If we are ever in the same place at the same time I can show you how to detail strip that gun.
Chuck Haggard
08-11-2014, 10:02 AM
That is definitely my experience with G-22s and 23s. Don't crank the velocity up too high or your next rounds might not feed. M&P's do a little better; P229's do much better.
ALL of our G22 issues were due to excessive slide velocity.
That decocker is cheesy, regardless of recall.
If we are ever in the same place at the same time I can show you how to detail strip that gun.
Chuck, is your issue with the 1076 the decocker, S&W 10mm pistols, or third gen S&W semi autos generally? The reason I ask, is the 1066 is available with the slide mounted safety instead of the decocker? 10mm in a reliable semi auto is important to me.
1slow
08-11-2014, 10:10 AM
How is the CZ 10mm ?
Do you know how much (if any) the .40s ability to handle 4 legged critters had in it being selected as the caliber of the Alaska Highway Patrol?
Way back in the late '90's I found a website about bear defense written by an AK hunter who got mauled. He said AK troopers chose the G22 after testing all the service calibers on intact bear heads provided by the DNR from road kills, and other culls or kills. What he reported was that all the service calibers worked if shot in through the nostrils or mouth and none of them could be counted on if they hit a glancing blow on the angled areas of the skull. He said they found .44 mag to fail with that sort of hit also.
Suvorov
08-11-2014, 12:31 PM
He said they found .44 mag to fail with that sort of hit also.
Thanks. Seems to echo what others here have said. Any thing short of a 12ga slug or HP rifle won't penetrate a Brown's "glacis plate" ;)
Of course if that is the case - does that bring us back to the more rounds is better argument?
Bill, GJM, Chuck, anyone else with smarts,
All else being equal; does a longer case like a 10mm face a greater challenge to be long term reliable in function than a shorter case like a .40 or .45 ACP?
I crudely imagine that the longer case has to be fed that much more precisely and consistently.
Rosco Benson
08-11-2014, 12:55 PM
A friend has an EAA Witness Hunter in 10mm. It seems to run well and is accurate. He hasn't shot it enough to have any insights into long-term durability.
Rosco
GardoneVT
08-11-2014, 01:04 PM
A friend has an EAA Witness Hunter in 10mm. It seems to run well and is accurate. He hasn't shot it enough to have any insights into long-term durability.
Rosco
Malamute
08-11-2014, 01:05 PM
Way back in the late '90's I found a website about bear defense written by an AK hunter who got mauled. He said AK troopers chose the G22 after testing all the service calibers on intact bear heads provided by the DNR from road kills, and other culls or kills. What he reported was that all the service calibers worked if shot in through the nostrils or mouth and none of them could be counted on if they hit a glancing blow on the angled areas of the skull. He said they found .44 mag to fail with that sort of hit also.
Did they specify which ammo they used in the 44?
There seems to accounts of people that have successfully used them on bear heads. I think in this case ammo likely has significant bearing on performance.
Did they specify which ammo they used in the 44?
There seems to accounts of people that have successfully used them on bear heads. I think in this case ammo likely has significant bearing on performance.
He did not so specify. But all the failures were attributed to poor glancing hits. You hear the same with peoples' heads being shot with bullets also. His big point on bear defense was hit them up the nose or in through the mouth with something reasonable you can control for multiple attempts at it. Reasonable being service pistol or higher I mean.
Did they specify which ammo they used in the 44?
There seems to accounts of people that have successfully used them on bear heads. I think in this case ammo likely has significant bearing on performance.
He did not so specify. But all the failures were attributed to poor glancing hits. You hear the same with peoples' heads being shot with bullets also. His big point on bear defense was hit them up the nose or in through the mouth with something reasonable you can control for multiple attempts at it. Reasonable being service pistol or higher I mean.
With .44 magnum and .45 long colt, devil is in the details. Shooting 90's vintage factory 240 JHP versus 300+ grain hard cast?
Comments by Randy Garrett of Garrett Cartridges on this topic:
http://garrettcartridges.com/defensive.html
http://garrettcartridges.com/44defendertech.html
ALL of our G22 issues were due to excessive slide velocity.
True, but it should be noted that slide velocity alters the jello behavior of the frame, which in turn makes feeding all the more interesting.
The 1066 is my all time fav non 1911 10mm. Bar non. They can be made into a seriously nice 10mm with a little polishing and welding.
Bill, much experience with the heavy 200 penetrator loads out of the 1066? Besides function, comments on durability?
Stengun
08-11-2014, 03:08 PM
Howdy,
I read every post in this thread, all 6 pages, and there's a couple of tactical errors in this thread. Here's a couple:
1.) The Glock 20 10mm is the only handgun on the market that was designed for the 10mm cartridge, except for the old Bren 10. It's not a ""scaled up" G17 as someone posted. The S&W 10mm series of pistols were just reworked ..45acp and the first 1006 I ever saw ( 1987 ) was built on a 4506 frame.
2.) G20 WILL handle the heavy loads w/out any issues. When the G20 was developed in Austria they used ammo made by Norma and they made several loads at the time with 170-200gr bullets.
3.) There isn't a handgun round made that will reliably stop a Coastal Brown bear. Period.
4.) You are more likely to be attacked by either a wolf or a moose in AK than by a Brownie.
That's just a couple.
I've fired numerous 180-200gr rounds through my G20 that I've owned for over 20 years without any issues. Some of these loads were 200gr JHP/FMJ/LSWC @ +1,300ft/sec. And 135gr JHP @+1,600ft/sec.
I've fired about 7,500 rounds through my G20 and most were max pressure or overpressured loads.
It has never hiccup and any shape, form, fashion or manner. Actually none of my Glocks have ever hiccuped except for a dud round ( my crappy reload ) once in a G23.
G20 +7,500rds
G21 +10,000rds ( no longer own. Used in SD shooting and never return by PD ).
G23 +20,000rds ( +15,000rds w/ a LW 40/9mm conversion barrel and +25,000rds w/ a Ceiner .22LR kit )
G35 +15,000rds
G21SF unfired ( It's almost 4 years old, don't know what I'm thinking. )
Seems like this thread is more about Glock bashing than anything else.
Paul
P.S. Back in the 80' to early 90's I fired +50,000 rounds through various S&W 1006 pistols and I really liked them a lot but I'll take a Glock any day over one.
TR675
08-11-2014, 03:14 PM
Howdy,
I read every post in this thread, all 6 pages, and there's a couple of tactical errors in this thread. Here's a couple...
Hard to agree more. GJM, you might want to listen up, Stengun lives in Arkansas, and that's a state which shares many letters with Alaska.
GardoneVT
08-11-2014, 03:16 PM
A friend has an EAA Witness Hunter in 10mm. It seems to run well and is accurate. He hasn't shot it enough to have any insights into long-term durability.
Rosco
It appears my original message didnt post right. In any event, ive had a good run so far with my Tanfoglio 10mm Witness steel. The blued finish is weaker then Obamas approval ratings, but the pistols run every factory round ive fed it without a problem.Just 300 so far, but its not bad for a CZ based 10mm I bought new for $450.00.
Howdy,
I read every post in this thread, all 6 pages, and there's a couple of tactical errors in this thread. Here's a couple:
1.) The Glock 20 10mm is the only handgun on the market that was designed for the 10mm cartridge, except for the old Bren 10. It's not a ""scaled up" G17 as someone posted. The S&W 10mm series of pistols were just reworked ..45acp and the first 1006 I ever saw ( 1987 ) was built on a 4506 frame.
2.) G20 WILL handle the heavy loads w/out any issues. When the G20 was developed in Austria they used ammo made by Norma and they made several loads at the time with 170-200gr bullets.
3.) There isn't a handgun round made that will reliably stop a Coastal Brown bear. Period.
4.) You are more likely to be attacked by either a wolf or a moose in AK than by a Brownie.
That's just a couple.
I've fired numerous 180-200gr rounds through my G20 that I've owned for over 20 years without any issues. Some of these loads were 200gr JHP/FMJ/LSWC @ +1,300ft/sec. And 135gr JHP @+1,600ft/sec.
I've fired about 7,500 rounds through my G20 and most were max pressure or overpressured loads.
It has never hiccup and any shape, form, fashion or manner. Actually none of my Glocks have ever hiccuped except for a dud round ( my crappy reload ) once in a G23.
G20 +7,500rds
G21 +10,000rds ( no longer own. Used in SD shooting and never return by PD ).
G23 +20,000rds ( +15,000rds w/ a LW 40/9mm conversion barrel and +25,000rds w/ a Ceiner .22LR kit )
G35 +15,000rds
G21SF unfired ( It's almost 4 years old, don't know what I'm thinking. )
Seems like this thread is more about Glock bashing than anything else.
Paul
P.S. Back in the 80' to early 90's I fired +50,000 rounds through various S&W 1006 pistols and I really liked them a lot but I'll take a Glock any day over one.
Paul, I am not sure if you are being serious or funny with this post?
Paul, I am not sure if you are being serious or funny with this post?
Didn't "somedude" on here name "George" have to shoot a bear in self defense while on a deer hunt in AK ?
Post #7
http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?5983-Randy-Cain-s-Practical-Rifle&highlight=kodiak
Howdy,
I read every post in this thread, all 6 pages, and there's a couple of tactical errors in this thread. Here's a couple:
1.) The Glock 20 10mm is the only handgun on the market that was designed for the 10mm cartridge, except for the old Bren 10. It's not a ""scaled up" G17 as someone posted. The S&W 10mm series of pistols were just reworked ..45acp and the first 1006 I ever saw ( 1987 ) was built on a 4506 frame.
2.) G20 WILL handle the heavy loads w/out any issues. When the G20 was developed in Austria they used ammo made by Norma and they made several loads at the time with 170-200gr bullets.
3.) There isn't a handgun round made that will reliably stop a Coastal Brown bear. Period.
4.) You are more likely to be attacked by either a wolf or a moose in AK than by a Brownie.
That's just a couple.
I've fired numerous 180-200gr rounds through my G20 that I've owned for over 20 years without any issues. Some of these loads were 200gr JHP/FMJ/LSWC @ +1,300ft/sec. And 135gr JHP @+1,600ft/sec.
I've fired about 7,500 rounds through my G20 and most were max pressure or overpressured loads.
It has never hiccup and any shape, form, fashion or manner. Actually none of my Glocks have ever hiccuped except for a dud round ( my crappy reload ) once in a G23.
G20 +7,500rds
G21 +10,000rds ( no longer own. Used in SD shooting and never return by PD ).
G23 +20,000rds ( +15,000rds w/ a LW 40/9mm conversion barrel and +25,000rds w/ a Ceiner .22LR kit )
G35 +15,000rds
G21SF unfired ( It's almost 4 years old, don't know what I'm thinking. )
Seems like this thread is more about Glock bashing than anything else.
Paul
P.S. Back in the 80' to early 90's I fired +50,000 rounds through various S&W 1006 pistols and I really liked them a lot but I'll take a Glock any day over one.
Without either of us really knowing GJM's particular situation, that's an awful presumptuous use of "you" above. There are plenty of places in AK where brown bear encounters are more likely than moose or wolves. Wolf attacks especially are pretty rare. There are also places up here with no moose, and plenty of brown bears.
Much as I like and even recommend the G20, GJM's experience isn't unique.
Beat Trash
08-11-2014, 04:06 PM
Didn't "somedude" on here name "George" have to shoot a bear in self defense while on a deer hunt in AK ?
Post #7
http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?5983-Randy-Cain-s-Practical-Rifle&highlight=kodiak
I read that post. Stopped the charge at 15 yards! I've never been to Brown Bear country, but I have a rough idea of how quick that bear could have closed the last 15 yards, had he not been stopped.
Compared to a 375 H&H rifle, I can imagine that any pistol you might carry would feel a bit on the light side.
Chuck Haggard
08-11-2014, 04:15 PM
Howdy,
I read every post in this thread, all 6 pages, and there's a couple of tactical errors in this thread. Here's a couple:
1.) The Glock 20 10mm is the only handgun on the market that was designed for the 10mm cartridge, except for the old Bren 10. It's not a ""scaled up" G17 as someone posted. The S&W 10mm series of pistols were just reworked ..45acp and the first 1006 I ever saw ( 1987 ) was built on a 4506 frame.
2.) G20 WILL handle the heavy loads w/out any issues. When the G20 was developed in Austria they used ammo made by Norma and they made several loads at the time with 170-200gr bullets.
3.) There isn't a handgun round made that will reliably stop a Coastal Brown bear. Period.
4.) You are more likely to be attacked by either a wolf or a moose in AK than by a Brownie.
That's just a couple.
I've fired numerous 180-200gr rounds through my G20 that I've owned for over 20 years without any issues. Some of these loads were 200gr JHP/FMJ/LSWC @ +1,300ft/sec. And 135gr JHP @+1,600ft/sec.
I've fired about 7,500 rounds through my G20 and most were max pressure or overpressured loads.
It has never hiccup and any shape, form, fashion or manner. Actually none of my Glocks have ever hiccuped except for a dud round ( my crappy reload ) once in a G23.
G20 +7,500rds
G21 +10,000rds ( no longer own. Used in SD shooting and never return by PD ).
G23 +20,000rds ( +15,000rds w/ a LW 40/9mm conversion barrel and +25,000rds w/ a Ceiner .22LR kit )
G35 +15,000rds
G21SF unfired ( It's almost 4 years old, don't know what I'm thinking. )
Seems like this thread is more about Glock bashing than anything else.
Paul
P.S. Back in the 80' to early 90's I fired +50,000 rounds through various S&W 1006 pistols and I really liked them a lot but I'll take a Glock any day over one.
You really should read more and post less.
I read that post. Stopped the charge at 15 yards! I've never been to Brown Bear country, but I have a rough idea of how quick that bear could have closed the last 15 yards, had he not been stopped.
Compared to a 375 H&H rifle, I can imagine that any pistol you might carry would feel a bit on the light side.
You forgot the important part -- I was also carrying a Glock 20 loaded with DT 200 penetrator ammo, in a chest rig.
ldunnmobile
08-11-2014, 06:10 PM
Paul, I am not sure if you are being serious or funny with this post?
As a fellow Arkansan, I pray it's the "funny" option.
Tamara
08-11-2014, 06:10 PM
Actually none of my Glocks have ever hiccuped except for a dud round ( my crappy reload ) once in a G23.
G23 ... +25,000rds w/ a Ceiner .22LR kit
25k rimfire rounds through a Ciener kit w/no malfunctions? I was born at night, dude, but not last night.
Tamara
08-11-2014, 06:11 PM
You forgot the important part -- I was also carrying a Glock 20 loaded with DT 200 penetrator ammo, in a chest rig.
You just hate Glocks.
You just hate Glocks.
The bear hated Glocks - most likely what caused the whole thing ........;)
You just hate Glocks.
the funny thing is I have more Glock pistols than any other brand, and that is even calling a 1911 "a brand." And, my wife exclusively shoots a Glock, excepting the off S&W revolver, and has several dozen of her own.
The 1066 is my all time fav non 1911 10mm. Bar non. They can be made into a seriously nice 10mm with a little polishing and welding.
As usual, this threads are expensive.
Suvorov
08-11-2014, 09:35 PM
As usual, this threads are expensive.
Not to nudge you any more, but one of the things that sold me on the 1006 (full size variant of the 1066) is that the control layout was the same as the Beretta 92.
Chuck Haggard
08-11-2014, 10:00 PM
The 1066 was nice, but for a 10mm I'd take the 1006 to try and get all of the velocity I could get.
True, but it should be noted that slide velocity alters the jello behavior of the frame, which in turn makes feeding all the more interesting.
The 1066 is my all time fav non 1911 10mm. Bar non. They can be made into a seriously nice 10mm with a little polishing and welding.
Not to nudge you any more, but one of the things that sold me on the 1006 (full size variant of the 1066) is that the control layout was the same as the Beretta 92.
First, no nudge needed as I will soon be bi-wesson, meaning a 1076 and 1066.
I could care less about control placement and decocking. You know that bear story -- if needed for real, I will be shooting that thing to slide lock, and then someone else will have to remove it from the place you hope there isn't much of a front sight.
Chuck Whitlock
08-12-2014, 01:58 PM
How does the 1066 compare to a 1076 in durability?
That decocker is cheesy, regardless of recall.
IIRC, the frame mounted decockers came about from the FBI telling S&W, "We will buy your guns, if you make them work just like these Sigs that we've become enamoured with."
I'm still not sure how some kind of patent infringement lawsuit was avoided.
LSP972
08-12-2014, 02:20 PM
IIRC, the frame mounted decockers came about from the FBI telling S&W, "We will buy your guns, if you make them work just like these Sigs that we've become enamoured with."
True.
Compounding the issue was the fact that The Director Had Spoken; FBI was going to 10mm, despite his FTU people telling him it was a real bad idea; and there were exactly three to choose from... the Colt Delta Elite 1911, the G20, and the S&W. FBI held to the prevailing (at the time) cop perception that any SA gun with a manual safety was bad juju for LE work; one that is still valid today for a general-issue piece. The Glock was still new, and considered by FBI FTU to be the anti-Christ (due to all the negligent injury/wrongful death suits Glock was facing at the time, caused by cops who had not been trained to keep their finger OFF of the trigger, etc.). So that left the S&W.
An amusing aside was the fact that they first approached Sig about making a 10mm P226, and the Sig/USA guys over here said "Sure, we can do that." When the idea was floated in Germany, the Teutonic engineers nixed it, knowing that a complete re-design would be necessary and that an alloy frame would not stand the pounding. What makes it amusing is that , I was told, Sig neglected to inform the FBI of this decision, so after Ted Hollobaugh and his merry men developed the "10mm Lite" cartridge, they informed Sig of this and asked "Where's our gun?"
The answer allegedly was, "Gun? What gun?"
Bottom line, they (FBI FTU) were between a rock and a hard place now, and the S&W offering was the lesser of three evils. The frame-mount decocker was indeed a last-minute add-on. And the rest, as they say, is history...
.
I know right? Who'd have thought physics and materials science would pertain to firearms?
Physics? Material Sciences? Only smart people took those courses. I got a degree in something like Post-Structuralist Deconstructionism, in which we learned how irony is used in anti-imperialist discourse. Or something. So I had to find out about the limitations of polymer the hard way (during the course of which I also accidently learned why one doesn't want to fire a bullet at velocities well in excess of its design limitations).
Chuck Haggard
08-12-2014, 06:23 PM
The S&W part that is the Sig copy decocker thingy was referred to in the armorers class I was last in as the "Bart Simpson" due to it's appearance. It's pretty cheesy looking when you get the parts out and look at them.
Tamara
08-12-2014, 06:38 PM
The frame-mount decocker was indeed a last-minute add-on.
Not that anybody would ever guess that by looking at it or coonfingering it. /sarc
;)
LSP972
08-12-2014, 06:41 PM
Not that anybody would ever guess that by looking at it or coonfingering it. /sarc
;)
It gets even better when you remove the grips.
.
No, I am even talking about 200 FMJ bullets at 1,200 fps, as loaded by Corbon and Buffalo Bore, which have been proven unreliable in at least a half dozen different Glock 20 and 29 pistols of Gen 3, Gen 3 SF and Gen 4 type.
I like 3rd gen S&W but never cared for there 10mil or the 10mm Delta. Truthfully I didn't get it at all why the FBI wanted a single stack fed pistol in 10mil when they had the 1911 45ACP.
I wonder the difference in BG penetration between 10mm and 40S&W when loaded with 180 to 200gr ball?
And if the difference would be worth the extra recoil?
Lester Polfus
08-12-2014, 07:13 PM
I like 3rd gen S&W but never cared for there 10mil or the 10mm Delta. Truthfully I didn't get it at all why the FBI wanted a single stack fed pistol in 10mil when they had the 1911 45ACP.
I wonder the difference in BG penetration between 10mm and 40S&W when loaded with 180 to 200gr ball?
And if the difference would be worth the extra recoil?
I think most folks with an understanding of terminal ballistics would agree that there really isn't an advantage to the 10mm over modern, mainstream service cartridges using barrier blind bullets, when it comes to human threats.
The niche for the 10mm is as an outdoors, or woods gun, one that can be reliably used on big critters. This has historically been the domain of big bore revolvers, as most attempts to chamber an autopistol at that power level have been failures due to durability or portability, or both. The 10mm has promise in this area, as it delivers hot .357 mag energy levels in a cartridge that can be chambered in a reasonably sized auto pistol.
Lester Polfus
08-12-2014, 07:29 PM
Hey GJM,
This is drift away from the 1066/1076 topic, but you've mentioned your poor experiences with the Glock 20 in a couple of threads, and I meant to respond. Back before my Divorce Gun Sell Off, I ran both a second generation and third generation G20. I had somewhere around a 1000 rounds of full power 200 grain loads through both guns. By full power I mean either Double Tap 200 grain XTPs, or FMJ's, or my own handloads with those bullets, running around 1250 FPS over the chrony.
I actually found them to be quite reliable. I didn't have any particular problems with them, but I do remember that above a certain power level the recoil impulse of the gun changed. It's hard to describe, obviously it was "more" but that wasn't just it, it felt "different" too, and I wonder if that was the frame flexing more.
So I wonder if I was on the bare edge of "reliable" with those loads. I'd sure like to know what made the difference between your experience and mine. It does occur to me that much of the third gen shooting was done with a WML attached to the frame. I can't see anything that would account for the second gen running ok though.
Chuck Haggard
08-12-2014, 09:48 PM
It gets even better when you remove the grips.
.
Word
Stengun
08-12-2014, 11:47 PM
Howdy,
True.
Compounding the issue was the fact that The Director Had Spoken; FBI was going to 10mm, despite his FTU people telling him it was a real bad idea; and there were exactly three to choose from... the Colt Delta Elite 1911, the G20, and the S&W. FBI held to the prevailing (at the time) cop perception that any SA gun with a manual safety was bad juju for LE work; one that is still valid today for a general-issue piece. The Glock was still new, and considered by FBI FTU to be the anti-Christ (due to all the negligent injury/wrongful death suits Glock was facing at the time, caused by cops who had not been trained to keep their finger OFF of the trigger, etc.). So that left the S&W.
.
Also the DE 10mm had a reputation for cracking the frame at the slide stop hole. I saw one crack after only firing a 50rd box of Norma ammo.
Paul
Hey GJM,
This is drift away from the 1066/1076 topic, but you've mentioned your poor experiences with the Glock 20 in a couple of threads, and I meant to respond. Back before my Divorce Gun Sell Off, I ran both a second generation and third generation G20. I had somewhere around a 1000 rounds of full power 200 grain loads through both guns. By full power I mean either Double Tap 200 grain XTPs, or FMJ's, or my own handloads with those bullets, running around 1250 FPS over the chrony.
I actually found them to be quite reliable. I didn't have any particular problems with them, but I do remember that above a certain power level the recoil impulse of the gun changed. It's hard to describe, obviously it was "more" but that wasn't just it, it felt "different" too, and I wonder if that was the frame flexing more.
So I wonder if I was on the bare edge of "reliable" with those loads. I'd sure like to know what made the difference between your experience and mine. It does occur to me that much of the third gen shooting was done with a WML attached to the frame. I can't see anything that would account for the second gen running ok though.
The quick answer is I don't know.
The 20 and 29 seemed to run fine with most everything except the 200 FMJ penetrator loads. Not sure if their bullet profile (flat point), or the bullet weight/velocity was the issue. I agree that you could definitely feel the pistol recoiling differently with the heavy loads, similar to what I have experienced with 230+P in a LW Commander. Those same heavy 10mm loads seemed to feed in my Colt Delta.
The quick answer is I don't know.
The 20 and 29 seemed to run fine with most everything except the 200 FMJ penetrator loads. Not sure if their bullet profile (flat point), or the bullet weight/velocity was the issue. I agree that you could definitely feel the pistol recoiling differently with the heavy loads, similar to what I have experienced with 230+P in a LW Commander. Those same heavy 10mm loads seemed to feed in my Colt Delta.
GJM,
Have you tried the new Federal 180 grn Vital-Shock in either the G20 or G29?
Tamara
08-13-2014, 02:52 PM
Also the DE 10mm had a reputation for cracking the frame at the slide stop hole. I saw one crack after only firing a 50rd box of Norma ammo.
Just in case anybody stumbles across this thread via search engine in the future who isn't familiar with this issue, early Colt Deltas would crack the frame rail above the slide stop cutout. This was no biggie, since the slide stop cutout effectively stop-drilled the crack, preventing it from propagating, but "zomg Delta Elites crack their frames!" became such a staple of the gun store commando that Colt fixed the problem by removing that section of frame rail (http://www.m1911.org/images/dana/bluess.jpg).
Despite this fix being applied several years before the letters "www." meant anything other than the "w" key on your IBM Selectric was stuck, it somehow persists with guys like the one I'm quoting.
Oddly, they all talk about the "zomg Delta Elites crack their frames!" thing, and yet none of 'em ever comment on the junky plastic recoil spring guides they came with that disintegrated in short order under a diet of Winchester Silvertips... Makes me wonder how many of them actually had any time with the pistol in question. ;)
Sincerely,
A Recovering Delta Elitist
Tamara
08-13-2014, 03:27 PM
new Federal 180 grn Vital-Shock
My inner gun hipster is intrigued.
farscott
08-13-2014, 03:45 PM
Any reason why the Colt Double Eagle was not considered by the FBI? Was it developed too late for the procurement process /trials? The Double Eagle had a very nice SIG P22x-like decocking mechanism and was available in 10mm. My experience with two of them in .45 ACP has been very positive.
farscott
08-13-2014, 03:52 PM
Just in case anybody stumbles across this thread via search engine in the future who isn't familiar with this issue, early Colt Deltas would crack the frame rail above the slide stop cutout. This was no biggie, since the slide stop cutout effectively stop-drilled the crack, preventing it from propagating, but "zomg Delta Elites crack their frames!" became such a staple of the gun store commando that Colt fixed the problem by removing that section of frame rail (http://www.m1911.org/images/dana/bluess.jpg).
Despite this fix being applied several years before the letters "www." meant anything other than the "w" key on your IBM Selectric was stuck, it somehow persists with guys like the one I'm quoting.
Oddly, they all talk about the "zomg Delta Elites crack their frames!" thing, and yet none of 'em ever comment on the junky plastic recoil spring guides they came with that disintegrated in short order under a diet of Winchester Silvertips... Makes me wonder how many of them actually had any time with the pistol in question. ;)
Sincerely,
A Recovering Delta Elitist
Colt used the same plastic guide rod/spring setup with the 9x23 Series '80 guns. I still have mine somewhere in a box of parts marked "Never use". I replaced that funky dual spring setup with a one-piece FLGR and a Wolff 18# spring.
Chuck Haggard
08-13-2014, 03:56 PM
My inner gun hipster is intrigued.
That load is quite the shizzle from what I have seen.
I might need to go and buy a G20SF
Lester Polfus
08-13-2014, 03:56 PM
We don't pay you what you are worth.
Just in case anybody stumbles across this thread via search engine in the future who isn't familiar with this issue, early Colt Deltas would crack the frame rail above the slide stop cutout. This was no biggie, since the slide stop cutout effectively stop-drilled the crack, preventing it from propagating, but "zomg Delta Elites crack their frames!" became such a staple of the gun store commando that Colt fixed the problem by removing that section of frame rail (http://www.m1911.org/images/dana/bluess.jpg).
Despite this fix being applied several years before the letters "www." meant anything other than the "w" key on your IBM Selectric was stuck, it somehow persists with guys like the one I'm quoting.
Oddly, they all talk about the "zomg Delta Elites crack their frames!" thing, and yet none of 'em ever comment on the junky plastic recoil spring guides they came with that disintegrated in short order under a diet of Winchester Silvertips... Makes me wonder how many of them actually had any time with the pistol in question. ;)
Sincerely,
A Recovering Delta Elitist
Tamara
08-13-2014, 03:59 PM
Colt used the same plastic guide rod/spring setup with the 9x23 Series '80 guns. I still have mine somewhere in a box of parts marked "Never use". I replaced that funky dual spring setup with a one-piece FLGR and a Wolff 18# spring.
I, too, replaced the dual springs with the single Wolff, albeit on a stubby GI guide rod because FLGRs are against my religion. ;)
GardoneVT
08-13-2014, 04:01 PM
Ive had good experiences with the Tanfoglio produced 10mm model Witness. 300 rounds of Double Tap and Hornady JHPs with no failures. Given the G20(ergonomically unsuitable for me) or a 10mm 1911 ($$$$$) or a 1006(same problem as the Glock) that left the Witness .Its a big gun, but the CZ75 grip design helps that immensely.
farscott
08-13-2014, 04:05 PM
I, too, replaced the dual springs with the single Wolff, albeit on a stubby GI guide rod because FLGRs are against my religion. ;)
I am one of those 1911 people who like and use both the GI setup (in my carry 1911s) and FLGR setup (in game and hunting 1911s). My Sams 9x19 has a tungsten FLGR to add a bit more weight to the gun. I figure when I break this one -- and I will -- it will be time to just use a steel FLGR.
My inner gun hipster is intrigued.
That load along with the Hornady XTPs has me very interested in a 10mm. I carry a 686 as a hunting back up and hiking gun now. I wanted similar ballistics out of a semi-auto to replace it. More rounds in a lighter package appealed to me. I was leaning towards a Glock 20 or 29 for economic reasons and I carry a G22 for work.
I'm in the lower 48 so I don't need the fast and heavy 200 grn boutique loads. I do need a reliable semi though. I'm also avoiding the Gen4 G20's as there does seem to be some problems with them. If a G20SF can't reliably shoot the 180 grain Federal or Hornady, I probably will stick with the wheel gun or look at another G22 or M&P for woods carry.
Chuck Haggard
08-13-2014, 08:58 PM
A G35 might be a good idea for you.
That's a good idea. I hadn't thought of a G35. How much velocity would I most likely pick up out of the longer barrel?
That's a good idea. I hadn't thought of a G35. How much velocity would I most likely pick up out of the longer barrel?
Not enough to matter.
Chuck Haggard
08-14-2014, 06:31 AM
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/40sw.html
Kinda depends on what load. Sometimes you'll get more velocity, other times not so much. Definitely a bit more sight radius.
A G35 might be a good idea for you.
I have about 250 rounds through a Gen 4 G35 and about 4 times that amount through a Gen 4 G22 but separated by several months so it wasn't side by side.
But I sure have the sense that the G35 recoil perception was less and it tracked somewhat flatter. But the G35 slide cut out is to roughly make the slides equal weight an all.
The G35 was for sale and I sort of wish I'd bought it. It shot extremely accurately.
Chuck Haggard
08-14-2014, 11:02 AM
I have a buddy, who is an exceptional shot and an experience deer hunter, take a doe at 80 yards with his G35 and 180gr Gold Dot. If one can shoot then the G34/35 is a pretty capable gun in my experience.
Tamara
08-14-2014, 11:06 AM
That's a good idea. I hadn't thought of a G35. How much velocity would I most likely pick up out of the longer barrel?
From my 10mm nerd days back at GlockTalk, I seem to recollect that the velocity lines with most factory ammo don't get close until you're comparing the Glock 24 to the Glock 29.
That's a good idea. I hadn't thought of a G35. How much velocity would I most likely pick up out of the longer barrel?
With a 155 gr. round, maybe 100 FPS. With the heavy 180-200 gr rounds you want to use, probably less than 50 fps and maybe no gain at all.
I appreciate the input and humoring the thread drift. I'm going to my Blue Label dealer on Monday. I'll check out what they have.
John Ralston
08-15-2014, 08:47 PM
My 1076 was an over run from the FBI contract. It had "Capable of Firing with Magazine Removed" laser engraved on the slide. It was a great shooter, but ammo was expensive and it weighed a ton, even with the shorter slide and barrel. It was a graduation gift (WSU) from my parents, but I traded it off to get my first stitcher...so I don't regret it too much.
Jason Burton
08-15-2014, 08:53 PM
... but I traded it off to get my first stitcher...
But look where that got you... ;)
John Ralston
08-15-2014, 11:24 PM
But look where that got you... ;)
That's why I don't regret it "too much" :cool:
Received this from a friend today:
150 rounds of Underwood 200 gr. TMJ produced two failures to feed - failures
are almost identical and neither failure occurred with first two or last two
rounds in the magazine.
Glock Gen 4 10mm.
-3 trigger bar (the latest),
#4 magazine followers (the latest),
Wolff 22 lb recoil spring for Glock 20 43722, Wolff Guide Rod for Glock 20
50111, Zev Tech Gen 4 Reducing Ring
Photos #041 & #044 depict 3rd round failure.
Photo #063 depicts 6th round failure and with different magazine
When using the factory 17 lb recoil spring assembly the gun was jarred
enough that it went into premature slide lock. There were no premature
slide locks with the Wolff 22 lb spring.
Ordering Wolff extra power magazine springs to try.
Subsequently, he corresponded with Wolff, and they suggested extra power magazine springs, as they thought the heavy loads caused high slide velocity, and the stock magazine springs couldn't keep up.
I got to shoot my 1076 this evening. First I tried Buffalo Bore 200 FMJ-FP, #21A. This load has consistently been 'jam-amatic" in multiple Glock 20 and 29 pistols. In 20 rounds, I experienced two stoppages similar to what my friend experienced in his G20 with the Underwood 200 TMJ. I consider this Buffalo Bore load to be a "revolver only" load. I then shot my first box of the new Federal Trophy Bonded 180 grain. No stoppages and the load seemed accurate. Hope to test more of this in the 1076 and a 1066, plus the Glock pistols.
Shot the 1066 this afternoon, testing the Federal Trophy Bonded 180 grain load. I dig this load. It feels sporty but not abusive in the 1066. Crazy easy to hit the 8 inch steel at 40-50 yards. No stoppages. Really like the 1066, Bill Riehl was right.
I also shot a box of the Trophy Bonded through my Glock 29 and it ran and felt good. The Trophy Bonded may become my go to 10mm load for field use.
Shot the 1066 this afternoon, testing the Federal Trophy Bonded 180 grain load. I dig this load. It feels sporty but not abusive in the 1066. Crazy easy to hit the 8 inch steel at 40-50 yards. No stoppages. Really like the 1066, Bill Riehl was right.
I also shot a box of the Trophy Bonded through my Glock 29 and it ran and felt good. The Trophy Bonded may become my go to 10mm load for field use.
I never get tired of hearing I'm right.
If the 1911 and BHP didn't exist, I'd only carry 3rd Gen Smiths. And likely, mostly 1066s and 4566s.
Chuck Haggard
08-25-2014, 09:33 AM
George, that stoppage pattern you describe, first couple rounds will feed/last couple will feed, the middle of the magazine is a crap shoot, is exactly what we saw here with our G22s when we had our well documented probelms.
Excessive slide velocity means the magazine spring can't keep up with the slide.
I never get tired of hearing I'm right.
If the 1911 and BHP didn't exist, I'd only carry 3rd Gen Smiths. And likely, mostly 1066s and 4566s.
Bill, you are like a native brook trout in the spring -- quick to rise to the first gaudy fly cast your way. :)
Do you like the 4566 or 4566TSW?
ROTFL. I like em without the rail
ROTFL. I like em without the rail
How do you compare a 4566 to a P220?
That's a damn difficult question.
Putting this in this thread for lack of a better place Shot some more 10mm this morning. First, my wife shot a box of the Trophy Bonded in her G29. I shot some in the 1076. We shot freestyle and one hand. I have yet to have a stoppage with the Trophy Bonded in either Glock 29 or S&W 1076/1066 I have tried.
Also shot Double Tap 180 FMJ-FP in the various pistols, without stoppages. My theory is this may be more reliable than the 200 grain FMJ-FP at the same velocity, as it is effectively lower power factor and perhaps closer to in the reliability envelope.
Finally, I shot a magazine of the Corbon 200 grain FMJ-FP "penetrator" load that has given me fits in the Glock. It caused a stoppage in the 1076, too.
Would like to get Andrew W some Trophy Bonded to test. If its penetration is sufficient, I think this will be my 10mm load.
On the way back from putting fuel in the float plane, in the pouring rain, I came across a bull porcupine. Skidded to a stop, grabbed the Benelli, put it down, and whacked it with the Trophy Bonded 180 grain out of my G29. One shot stop. :) I have seen worse when my neighbor took a cylinder of .454.
Grizzly21
08-31-2014, 01:49 PM
Love to hear the answer to this question.
I don't know enough to add anything of value to this thread, but I fantasize about retiring to Alaska, so of course I listen when George and BOM say pretty much anything Alaska or SIG-related or otherwise.
I'm all attention.
I have never had any dealings with the S&W 1076 but owned a Glock 20 a few years back and used it to killed a solid white albino deer at close range. As for my good friend retiring to Alaska, I cant wait to go visit him and see the last frontier.
Short update. I have run a bunch of different loads through the 1066 and 1076, including DT 200 hard cast, DT 200 FMJ FP, DT 180 FMJ FP, American Eagle 180 FMJ, Trophy Bonded 180, Underwood 200 FMJ FP, Corbon 200 FMJ FP, Buffalo Bore 200 FMJ FP, Hornady 200 XTP, Hornady Critical Defense 165 and probably some other loads I have forgotten. Excepting the Corbon and Buffalo Bore that won't run in any of our Glock 20 and 29 pistols either, the S&W pistols are boringly reliable. The bigger surprise is I have really started to enjoy shooting them. THey have a very nice, but heavy DA trigger, and a very short reset SA trigger. Gosh, I never knew S&W figured out so short a reset, so many years ago. Fixing to get a 4566 as a lower cost ammo trainer for the 1066, and a 3913 as a small single stack.
What is involved in removing the magazine safety in these pistols, and is that a smart thing to do?
Right now, if I had to pick one 10mm load, it would be the Federal Trophy Bonded 180, as it is accurate, runs in the Glock and S&W pistols, and just feels good, as the pistols cycle. In contrast, when I shoot DT 200 hard cast through my P07 .40, it cycles, but feels like an unhappy pistol.
LSP972
09-03-2014, 04:24 PM
What is involved in removing the magazine safety in these pistols, and is that a smart thing to do?
Knock out the rear sight. Carefully, as there are two spring-loaded plungers underneath. Some pistols have a small metal plate covering the plungers; others don't.
Looking down onto the slide, muzzle away from you, pluck out the LEFT plunger (usually white in color, made from a nylon-like material. Older guns had an aluminum one, not sure when the change occurred) and its spring.
Re-install the rear sight, and you're GTG.
We did this on several hundred 3rd generation guns, mainly 5906s but the odd 5926, 5904, etc. here and there. Absolutely no issues.
.
Lester Polfus
09-03-2014, 05:43 PM
The 3rd Gen Smiths are nice, aren't they? I think a 3913 is an excellent gun.
Here's a question: have you ever experimented with the .45 Super or .460 Rowland as your "killing large beasties in extremis" handgun?
The 3rd Gen Smiths are nice, aren't they? I think a 3913 is an excellent gun.
Here's a question: have you ever experimented with the .45 Super or .460 Rowland as your "killing large beasties in extremis" handgun?
Bill Wilson just suggested a hot .45 load, but I haven't messed with those yet. How would .45 Super run in a 4566?
At the end of the day, I just want to be able to penetrate the skull of a bear, and whatever load does that is fine by me.
Thanks for the info on removing the mag disconnect, will look into that when I change sights.
Chuck Haggard
09-03-2014, 09:25 PM
Getting the rear sight back on without jacking up the springs is a bit of an art.
Getting the rear sight back on without jacking up the springs is a bit of an art.
Harder than an M&P?
Lester Polfus
09-03-2014, 10:57 PM
Bill Wilson just suggested a hot .45 load, but I haven't messed with those yet. How would .45 Super run in a 4566?
At the end of the day, I just want to be able to penetrate the skull of a bear, and whatever load does that is fine by me.
Dunno. I have no experience with the round at all. Buffalo Bore Has this to say about the .45 Super:
"45 Super is externally/dimensionally identical to 45 acp or 45 acp+P and is designed to be used in 45 acp semi auto pistols that have been fitted with stronger than normal recoil springs and a shock buffer, plus a couple other modifications. While you can shoot 45 SUPER out of some stock 45 acp+P pistols such as the Glock 21, HK USP or the full sized all steel 1911, you will batter your pistol if you do not have them modified to handle the extra pressure and slide velocity of the 45 Super."
The recoil spring makes sense, but when I hear the term "shock buffer" that = "malfunction inducing widget" to me, so I dunno. Seems like it would be a cheap experiment though.
.460 Rowland seems more involved, requiring comps and such.
Chuck Haggard
09-03-2014, 11:39 PM
Harder than an M&P?
Hard to say. I've done hundreds of 3rd gen 9mms, only a couple of M&Ps
LSP972
09-04-2014, 07:00 AM
Chuck is correct; you gotta hold your mouth right when doing this. Sorry, GJM; it was a bit churlish of me to write "knock out/re-install the rear sight" and leave it at that.
I suspect one reason that some of the guns have a small metal plate holding the springs in place is due to exactly what Chuck is talking about. Basically, on a slide without the plate, you must VERY carefully "walk" the sight back over the safety lever plunger spring (the plunger on the right side of the slide- this is part of the firing pin block system). Depending on the rear sight configuration, sometimes you can knock it over just far enough to clear the mag safety plunger without completely removing the rear sight from the slide. This is what you want to do if possible; that way, the safety lever plunger & spring remains captured, and you just knock the sight back over the empty hole where the mag safety plunger & spring was.
The whole crux of this is to NOT bend, kink, or otherwise goober up the safety lever plunger and its spring. Otherwise, you'll have a nice door stop.
All that said… this is not difficult at all; it just sounds that way. However (there's always a "however" when dealing with S&W semi-autos), some of the fixed rear sights I've run across had to have been put in with a two-ton press by Igor the Barbarian. I mean, we really had to beat the kitten out of them to get them to move. The adjustable sights were relative easy, as they are held in place by a grub screw. But some of those fixed rear sights… man, we had to break out the five pound metric ball peen hammer. I trashed more than one piece of German silver (a non-marring punch) on those things.
Anyway; use a good, solid vise (be careful WHERE you lock the jaws down so as not to flex the slide rails), and beat that puppy out from left to right as looking at the rear of the slide.
Got no experience banging on an M&P semi-auto, so I couldn't say which is more difficult.
.
rsa-otc
09-04-2014, 12:33 PM
Got no experience banging on an M&P semi-auto, so I couldn't say which is more difficult.
I have had the pleasure of doing 4 M&Ps so far, to both replace the sight and replace the USB with an Improved USB or the APEX part. 3 have been hard but not impossible. With my latest, a M&P40 I was turning the air blue with 4 letter descriptive words. My 645 was never that as hard but then again the first person to remove the sight was Austin Behlert. He may have made some alterations.
LSP no worries, I have mentally put this operation into the "gunsmith operation" box, as it appears harder than what I am capable of doing with my Glock tool, on a Glock.
On another note, Tony at JM is getting spooled up to do AIWB holsters for the 1066/4566. Hope the demand is more than mine.
Continue to be very impressed with the 1066/1076. As part of my longer range study, did a walk back this evening, and went 4/4 on an 8 inch steel at 65 yards, and 2/4 at 75 yards.
Bergeron
09-13-2014, 11:49 AM
I really appreciate this thread.
I the first time I saw a 10mm in action was when a shooter brought his S&W auto to a local bowling pin match. I had always been impressed by what had been written about the guns and seeing one in action was exciting. It came off as a great combination of power and relative controllability.
The 1076/1066/4566/3913 set is also exciting. S&W autopistols have consistenly had a great feel in my hand that has always made the guns feel very transparent to operate. The 22A/S; 41; 5906; and the M&P all felt great and I have always figured that the full-size single stack double actions would also be excellent in this regard.
I'm aware that the Perfomance Center did some great stuff to the 3rd generation guns for USPSA shooting in the 90's. I wonder if any of that type of work would fall into the category of modifications to support a diet of .45 Super.
LSP552
09-13-2014, 02:01 PM
Continue to be very impressed with the 1066/1076. As part of my longer range study, did a walk back this evening, and went 4/4 on an 8 inch steel at 65 yards, and 2/4 at 75 yards.
Have you smacked any meat yet with the Fed Trophy Bonded? Please keep us posted as you wring out that load.
Thanks
Ken
Continue to be very impressed with the 1066/1076. As part of my longer range study, did a walk back this evening, and went 4/4 on an 8 inch steel at 65 yards, and 2/4 at 75 yards.
I'm impressed that you could see an 8 inch steel at 75 yards, much less hit it.
I am down to just enough Trophy Bonded for my carry mags for the 1076 and Glock 29, so I am limited until I get more. I did shoot a group at 50 yards this afternoon with it using the 1076, and it was one I was proud of. My plan is to standardize on the Trophy Bonded for carry, and carry testing, and use whatever for the rest of my 10mm practice. Since I got the 4566, I figure I can practice with .45.
Only think live I have shot with the Trophy Bonded was a porky and he was DRT. Funny thing is a neighbor near our remote cabin was out with his Vizsla, when she locked up on something. He saw it was a porky, got her back, grabbed his M&P AR .22, plugged it, and it didn't move. It was the one I had already shot a few days earlier, but nothing escapes the Vizsla's bionic nose.
My 4566 and 3913 were waiting back in town for me today.
The 4566 has a fantastic trigger -- seems like a lighter DA and SA than the 1066/1076. Would that be luck, something about the .45 compared to 10mm, or likely that the 4566 had a trigger job? If a trigger job, would that likely be messing with the springs and reducing reliability or something else (haven't shot it yet).
The 3913 is a great size. My wife is laughing at "Lady Smith" on the slide. Would like to have the rear sight opened up some. Alternatively, since the Novak isn't conducive to one hand manipulations, I wonder about replacing the sights with the Trijicon non-Novak offering? Seems a tad longer, than say a 239, and I am not pinching my hand with a reload.
LtDave
09-15-2014, 09:02 PM
I'm aware that the Perfomance Center did some great stuff to the 3rd generation guns for USPSA shooting in the 90's. I wonder if any of that type of work would fall into the category of modifications to support a diet of .45 Super.
I have a 4566 that I had the performance center do a trigger job on. Outstanding. My favorite DA/SA trigger.
Just went and shot two rounds off the deck out of the 4566. Flawless two rounds. :)
Serious question, the thumb safety doesn't decock the pistol when put in the safe position. Either leaves it cocked and locked, or you have to manually lower the hammer with the safety off.
Is this a defect or part of some mod?
My late father-in-law carried a Ladysmith as an off-duty gun. I carried one and sometimes a pair of 3913s off duty for a while when the duty gun was a 5906.
Malamute
09-15-2014, 09:25 PM
Just went and shot two rounds off the deck out of the 4566. Flawless two rounds. :)
Serious question, the thumb safety doesn't decock the pistol when put in the safe position. Either leaves it cocked and locked, or you have to manually lower the hammer with the safety off.
Is this a defect or part of some mod?
Hopefully somebody smarter will come with a definitive answer, but when I messed with earlier gen Smith autos, I recall thinking there was a way to disable the hammer drop part of the safety when looking around inside it. Doesn't answer the question of mod or malfunction, but I believe its possible to mod them in that fashion.
Just went and shot two rounds off the deck out of the 4566. Flawless two rounds. :)
Serious question, the thumb safety doesn't decock the pistol when put in the safe position. Either leaves it cocked and locked, or you have to manually lower the hammer with the safety off.
Is this a defect or part of some mod?
Sounds like a mod - it should de cock just like an F model Beretta.
Darn (as close as you will get me to curse in writing), some Gunsite dude/1911 shooter probably thought he was being cute allowing cocked and locked. Amazing trigger, though.
Malamute
09-15-2014, 09:40 PM
Can you tell if any parts are missing or changed looking at it side by side with the 10mm? I think taking the slides off and comparing the underside of the slide and the frame parts may show if its been changed.
Chuck Haggard
09-15-2014, 09:46 PM
Just went and shot two rounds off the deck out of the 4566. Flawless two rounds. :)
Serious question, the thumb safety doesn't decock the pistol when put in the safe position. Either leaves it cocked and locked, or you have to manually lower the hammer with the safety off.
Is this a defect or part of some mod?
The tab that activates the sear to drop the hammer when you safe the pistol has been filed too much. This often happens when people try to do that part and get carried away.
There are two parts on the 3rd gen guns that are fitted by the armorer when they need to be replaced, and that's one of them, the extractor is the other.
Can you tell if any parts are missing or changed looking at it side by side with the 10mm? I think taking the slides off and comparing the underside of the slide and the frame parts may show if its been changed.
The tab that activates the sear to drop the hammer when you safe the pistol has been filed too much. This often happens when people try to do that part and get carried away.
There are two parts on the 3rd gen guns that are fitted by the armorer when they need to be replaced, and that's one of them, the extractor is the other.
There is a piece missing in the 4566 -- the part that looks like the 80 series safety in a 1911. Will take a picture.
1066:
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/45662_zps4fc1b9aa.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/45662_zps4fc1b9aa.jpg.html)
4566:
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/45661_zps2267cfb2.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/45661_zps2267cfb2.jpg.html)
Malamute
09-15-2014, 10:13 PM
Have you taken the slides off? From what Chuck said (one of who I was hoping would come along), the part in the frame may be modified or removed. Since the part in the slide is gone, it may have been part of somebody's trigger job. The axle of the safety/decock levers axle trips the lever in the frame when its rotated, the groove allows it to stay cocked by letting the lever stay up, I don't think the part missing in the slide will not make it decock. The lever in the frame does that.
1066 comes right apart.
4566, slide stop out, but slide doesn't want to slide forward off the frame. Suggestions?
Chuck Haggard
09-15-2014, 10:55 PM
Dude, your firing pin safety is missing. Do NOT carry that gun until you get it replaced.
Just came in through Gunbroker.
Option 1, is send it to S&W for repair. Looks like almost new condition (externally) with a great trigger. Does S&W support these models, and do reasonable cost repair work?
Option 2, contact seller and return it.
Option 3 that I haven't thought of?
Chuck Haggard
09-15-2014, 11:30 PM
S&W has some great CS, I'd call them first.
Malamute
09-15-2014, 11:50 PM
1066 comes right apart.
4566, slide stop out, but slide doesn't want to slide forward off the frame. Suggestions?
Chuck is right, it needs to be made right.
As far as getting it apart, study the 10, it may give you the answer. I recall they could be a bugger at times with the levers sticking up, could something be hanging up in the missing firing pin safety hole? Does it matter if the safety is up or down in taking that particular gun apart?
I'm going on old memories, its been a long time since I had one apart.
If they don't support them any more or you cant find parts, let me know, I may know a guy with some parts.
thanks for all the suggestions -- will call S&W in the am.
Chuck Haggard
09-16-2014, 12:02 AM
Don't even load it George, now that I think about it it's possible for it to slam fire if you drop the slide on a round to chamber it. Your firing pin is free-floating at the moment.
LSP972
09-16-2014, 05:13 AM
Somebody thought he/she was deactivating the mag disconnector but pulled the wrong plunger. You can see the mag disconnect plunger clearly.
Chuck is right; don't even load it.
Let's hope they still have the part. There was a blurb put out a year or so ago by someone in the factory PR office, stating that the factory was no longer supporting the third generation semi-autos. This followed the incident where they told West Virginia State Police, who issues/issued a version of the 4566 and wanted to order some more, that they don't make it anymore and "Here's a nice M&P .45 combat tupperware." Supposedly, WVSP told them to go pound sand, etc.
Dunno what the upshot of that was; I DO know that S&W made another run of the 4066 for Kalifornia Highway Patrol a few years back after telling them the same thing, then relenting after being told the same thing- screw you, we'll switch brands. Also, I recall hearing that all support/manufacturing of these guns was moved from Springfield to their Houlton, ME facility some time ago.
Not trying to rain on your parade here, just passing along information. IOW, don't be surprised if you get the run-around. I hope I'm wrong.
But definitely call them first.
.
5pins
09-16-2014, 05:34 AM
If Smith can help you out Numrich gun parts has the safety plunger but not the spring.
http://www.gunpartscorp.com/Manufacturers/SmithWesson-33495/AutoPistols-42024/45Series-35290/4566-34104.htm?page=2
rsa-otc
09-16-2014, 05:46 AM
If Smith can help you out Numrich gun parts has the safety plunger but not the spring.
http://www.gunpartscorp.com/Manufacturers/SmithWesson-33495/AutoPistols-42024/45Series-35290/4566-34104.htm?page=2
I think that spring is contained in the Wolf Service Pak
http://www.gunsprings.com/Semi-Auto%20Pistols/SMITH%20%26%20WESSON/NUMBERED%20SERIES/cID1/mID58/dID261#905
The last two pages validate the superiority of PF lives on. Damned impressive.
Just sayin'
Malamute
09-16-2014, 10:17 AM
Have you contacted the seller? They may have the parts they took out, or know who may have the original parts. The prospect of having the gun returned because of it may motivate them, or they may offer to pay for the parts.
SJC3081
09-16-2014, 11:43 AM
FYI I have a 586 that I bent the crane with some hellish hand loads and S&W repaired the gun gratis and the turnaround was one week exactly. My 1066 serial #TFH728x is dream.
S&W CS said no problem, send it in and they will take care of it.
LSP972
09-16-2014, 01:24 PM
Outstanding news.
.
Chuck Haggard
09-16-2014, 01:28 PM
S&W CS said no problem, send it in and they will take care of it.
I suspected they might. Even if it's not their fault the lawyers types in house are probably going to be all "NO FIRING PIN SAFETY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
They also said they continue to support the 4566.
Chuck Haggard
09-16-2014, 01:47 PM
Many of those parts are the same, which helps quite a bit.
LSP972
09-16-2014, 04:18 PM
They also said they continue to support the 4566.
Apparently, WVSP got their attention, then.
Interesting.
.
Andrew E
09-16-2014, 05:41 PM
Apparently, WVSP got their attention, then.
Interesting.
.
As of at least a couple years ago, Fresno County (CA) Sheriff's Office still issues 3rd Gen autoloaders in .45 IIRC it's the 4506TSW for uniform carry and 4516 or 4566 (it's been awhile) for off duty or non-uniform duty: detectives, admin, etc.
That might also be a contributing factor as FCSO is a decent-size agency. Probably not anywhere the size of WVSP, but still at least a couple hundred sworn, as far as I know.
With the repeated caveat that it's been awhile since I've kept up, so things may have changed for them in the last 2-3 years or so.
GardoneVT
09-16-2014, 11:06 PM
Apparently, WVSP got their attention, then.
Interesting.
.
Back when I carried a 5904 9mm I was a member of S&W fan forum. One of the members was associated with the WVSP. That agency ordered a one-off run of 4566s custom made to their specifications -at some point in 2009 if I remember right.
The weapons were melonite finished with modern parts and an integrated tactical rail, with the mag disconnect deleted from the factory. Very nice guns, and very impossible to acquire as a non-trooper. Gist of that thread is S&W will gladly build 3rd Gens made to order for any LE agency which asks-and pays up front for the order.
Back when I carried a 5904 9mm I was a member of S&W fan forum. One of the members was associated with the WVSP. That agency ordered a one-off run of 4566s custom made to their specifications -at some point in 2009 if I remember right.
The weapons were melonite finished with modern parts and an integrated tactical rail, with the mag disconnect deleted from the factory. Very nice guns, and very impossible to acquire as a non-trooper. Gist of that thread is S&W will gladly build 3rd Gens made to order for any LE agency which asks-and pays up front for the order.
I remember reading about that West Virginia State Police buy back when it happen and how stunned I was that S&W was not only willing to produce those guns, but that they still had the capability to do so.
SteveK
09-17-2014, 08:14 AM
S&W did re-tool to produce the WVSP 4566s after they were unsuccessful at talking them into the M&P. As with any start up production I know they dealt with several quality control issues. I remember handling one of the initial prototype guns at the academy. Now I am a huge fan of S&W 3rd gen autos and our agency still has them, but I couldn't help thinking why an agency with 500+ members would want to issue a weapon that has to be re-tooled to produce and support would be less than satisfactory. At that point S&W had clearly committed to the M&P line and why the would acquiesce to a government agency to keep a contract that would clearly stress their capability to manage was beyond me.
LSP972
09-17-2014, 08:47 AM
...why the would acquiesce to a government agency to keep a contract that would clearly stress their capability to manage was beyond me.
Its all about "market share" and appearances. IOW, being able to say "Agency X, Y, Z, etc. carries our guns." S&W has been... lagging... in that ability the past few years.
.
Gary1911A1
09-17-2014, 10:09 AM
I'm sure S&W thought at some time in the future they could talk the WVSP out of the 4566. That obviously didn't happen and that's a good thing. As long as S&W had to retool to make another run they should of made enough to keep selling them.
GardoneVT
09-17-2014, 11:31 AM
I'm sure S&W thought at some time in the future they could talk the WVSP out of the 4566. That obviously didn't happen and that's a good thing. As long as S&W had to retool to make another run they should of made enough to keep selling them.
That subject (returning the 3rd Gens )generated pages of discussion at the aforementioned forum. One of the guys at the factory chimed in to say that a 5906 required an hour's worth of machining time for the frame versus the M&P9,which needed only 20 minutes for the same operation .
One doesn't need a graduate business degree to see that for S&W, selling a labor intensive 4566 is a bad business decision. The markets spoken , and it said it didn't want heavy , hard to shoot metal pistols made on 1970s ergonomics.
The market also speaks when you look at the prices a 3913, 1066 and 1076 fetch on GunBroker.
selling a labor intensive 4566 is a bad business decision.How can you decide what a bad business decision is, or isn't, if you don't have the costs involved? As a side note, isn't making some money on it better than losing the sale and making no money?
Tamara
09-17-2014, 12:03 PM
The market also speaks when you look at the prices a 3913, 1066 and 1076 fetch on GunBroker.
If they were still market viable they wouldn't have been discontinued and therefore fetching scalper's prices on GB amongst diehard fanbois (and, yeah, fangirls. :o )
It's reminiscent of threads on the gun fondler fora that lament the departure of the majority of the blued revos from the lineup and make me think to myself "Dude, I was there for the dying days of carbon steel revolvers in the S&W catalog. If you people had been in stores buying them back then, they wouldn't be discontinued now and you wouldn't have anything to mope about on the internets."
Believe me, other than the strippo, vinyl-floormat models like the 410 and 910, you couldn't give 3rd Gen 'Smiths away in the late Nineties/early Aughties. :(
Tam, I think you speak of the whole line of third gen autos. Not sure what most of them did compared to alternatives, like the Glock 17 and 19.
The 3913 and 1066/1076, which I am referring to, are niche pistols that I believe are still unsurpassed for what they do. I haven't found a better 10mm launcher than the 1066/1076 and while it is early in the 3913 adventure, between its DA/SA operation and reliability, I think I prefer it to a Shield or PPS for AIWB carry.
Tamara
09-17-2014, 12:15 PM
The 3913 and 1066/1076, which I am referring to, are niche pistols that I believe are still unsurpassed for what they do.
I'm not saying they aren't good guns (I'm a diehard 3913LS fangirl and love my CS9*); I'm saying that they didn't sell well enough to remain in production. Part of the reason, of course, is that even with every manufacturing shortcut they could employ in the 3rd Gen guns, they were still hideously expensive to produce and I remember toward the tail end there even the Value Series guns were priced closer to SIG and Beretta than they were to Glock and Ruger, and Joe Customer just didn't get why a 'Murrican gun should be as much as one o' them fancy Yurrapeen ones.
*To the point that I was thinking about inquiring after getting a DSG AIWB holster made for it.
Tam, why don't you start a 3913 specific thread, and see how many 3913 lovers you can smoke out.
JonInWA
09-17-2014, 12:46 PM
I'm not saying they aren't good guns (I'm a diehard 3913LS fangirl and love my CS9*); I'm saying that they didn't sell well enough to remain in production. Part of the reason, of course, is that even with every manufacturing shortcut they could employ in the 3rd Gen guns, they were still hideously expensive to produce and I remember toward the tail end there even the Value Series guns were priced closer to SIG and Beretta than they were to Glock and Ruger, and Joe Customer just didn't get why a 'Murrican gun should be as much as one o' them fancy Yurrapeen ones.
*To the point that I was thinking about inquiring after getting a DSG AIWB holster made for it.
Other that the 3913/3914 series, my impression of S&W autos in the 1990s is that they were overpriced and mediocre, and coasting on LEO contracts. For slightly more money they were significantly out-performed by SIG-Sauer, and for less by Ruger and Glock. Beretta offered greater reliability and pride of ownership, due to fit, finish and component quality. Smith & Wesson's whining about losing the XM9 JSSAP trials, while not entirely unjustified, along with some of their later political positioning, combined with their plagarization of Glock to create the Sigma (which along with being a copy had the misfortune to be a not particularly good copy), created a bad taste in many shooters' mouths. While I appreciate some of you touting the 10mm Smiths today, in their day the committee-spec'ced/designed 1076 for the FBI was regarded as heavy and unreliable. If I was inclined to go with a 10mm autopistol today, my first nod would be to a Gen4 Glock 20, or a Nighthawk Custom 1911.
Best, Jon
If I was inclined to go with a 10mm autopistol today, my first nod would be to a Gen4 Glock 20, or a Nighthawk Custom 1911.
Best, Jon
Is this theoretical or do you have experience carrying a 10mm in the field, and trying to get the pistols to function with heavy loads?
I have custom 1911 10mm pistols, Glock 20/29 pistols and the 1066/1076.
I think a 10mm 1911 is a wonderful square range pistol. Not so great if you carry it in the field, soaking it in water, mud and guts. Not so great when your hands are cold, wet and slimy.
I think the G29 in particular is a great pistol to carry, and not worry about. Not so great, G20 or 29, trying to make the heavy loads run.
The 1066/1076 is heavy. It also is accurate and reliable with the heavy loads. It also has a DA/SA trigger and no thumb safety which I like for not shooting myself, and shooting in inclement conditions.
PS: For people, I can't imagine why someone would want to carry 10mm or some heavy low capacity pistol like a 1076. It is not surprising folks didn't like a 1076 for duty use. I wouldn't like it. I am discussing a particular niche -- outdoorsman's pistol launching the heavy 10mm loads.
Lester Polfus
09-17-2014, 01:16 PM
Other that the 3913/3914 series, my impression of S&W autos in the 1990s is that they were overpriced and mediocre, and coasting on LEO contracts. For slightly more money they were significantly out-performed by SIG-Sauer, and for less by Ruger and Glock. Beretta offered greater reliability and pride of ownership, due to fit, finish and component quality. Smith & Wesson's whining about losing the XM9 JSSAP trials, while not entirely unjustified, along with some of their later political positioning, combined with their plagarization of Glock to create the Sigma (which along with being a copy had the misfortune to be a not particularly good copy), created a bad taste in many shooters' mouths. While I appreciate some of you touting the 10mm Smiths today, in their day the committee-spec'ced/designed 1076 for the FBI was regarded as heavy and unreliable. If I was inclined to go with a 10mm autopistol today, my first nod would be to a Gen4 Glock 20, or a Nighthawk Custom 1911.
Best, Jon
I dunno man. I toted both a 5906 and a 4006 on duty, and I'm not sure how they could be "out-performed" by Sig or Beretta, as both of my guns never broke or had a failure to complete the cycle of operations. They were plenty accurate. Our guys complained about them, but it was never about reliability. Our complaints were that they were heavy (valid), TDA guns were difficult to shoot (get thee to the range), and more difficult from an armorer's perspective to support (true, I think, but from second hand knowledge.)
They were significantly more expensive than Glocks, and etc, as they were very much an "old school" design, with lots of machining and etc.
JonInWA
09-17-2014, 01:21 PM
Is this theoretical or do you have experience carrying a 10mm in the field, and trying to get the pistols to function with heavy loads?
I have custom 1911 10mm pistols, Glock 20/29 pistols and the 1066/1076.
I think a 10mm 1911 is a wonderful square range pistol. Not so great if you carry it in the field, soaking it in water, mud and guts. Not so great when your hands are cold, wet and slimy.
I think the G29 in particular is a great pistol to carry, and not worry about. Not so great, G20 or 29, trying to make the heavy loads run.
The 1066/1076 is heavy. It also is accurate and reliable with the heavy loads. It also has a DA/SA trigger and no thumb safety which I like for not shooting myself, and shooting in inclement conditions.
PS: For people, I can't imagine why someone would want to carry 10mm or some heavy low capacity pistol like a 1076. It is not surprising folks didn't like a 1076 for duty use. I wouldn't like it. I am discussing a particular niche -- outdoorsman's pistol launching the heavy 10mm loads.
I'll happily defer to your experience with heavy loads. If I wanted a 10mm, I'd simply go with a less problematic (i.e., lighter) load. Ideal? No. But I'd be more willing to take a slight downgrade in load for an increase in reliability. And an ability to place additional rounds on target quickly and reliably. For me, in Washington State, I've decided that for the mixed urban and wilderness locales/situations (or purely wilderness) that I'm likely to be in, my Glock G21 in .45 ACP is an acceptable choice. Alternatively, my 9mm G34 with Winchester Ranger 127gr +P+ is also a possibility. Obviously, where you are in Alaska probably eliminates the G34, regardless of cartridge, and makes the 10mm with your loadings superior to anything .45 ACP.
If I were to go the 1911 route, my thoughts are that your very valid grip concerns can be adequately dealt with by a combination of adequate frontstrap checkering and VCD grips. But I pretty much restrict my 1911s for urban carry and the shooting sports (i.e., IDPA).
I'm not faulting your solution/choice for you. For me, what for you is a labor of love and a careful configuration of the tools (gun and cartridge) to your circumstances is cost-ineffective for me and my circumstances.
Best, Jon
JonInWA
09-17-2014, 01:26 PM
I dunno man. I toted both a 5906 and a 4006 on duty, and I'm not sure how they could be "out-performed" by Sig or Beretta, as both of my guns never broke or had a failure to complete the cycle of operations. They were plenty accurate. Our guys complained about them, but it was never about reliability. Our complaints were that they were heavy (valid), TDA guns were difficult to shoot (get thee to the range), and more difficult from an armorer's perspective to support (true, I think, but from second hand knowledge.)
They were significantly more expensive than Glocks, and etc, as they were very much an "old school" design, with lots of machining and etc.
Lester, aren't you somewhat defining "mediocre" with the complaints/objections that your compatriots had about them that you bring up?
I'm really not trying to take a cheap shot, but if I'm looking for a platform for my organization (or for individual purposes), I'm much more likely to cast a favorable eye on one that's lighter and intrinsically easier for people of various backgrounds/physiques/genders to shoot competently, with a minimum of training time/resources needed. And one concurrently easier for my organizational armorers to inspect and maintain, in terms of requisite resources (time, skill level, armor qualification/certification time/expense, and replacement parts stockages). I can appreciate you liking and shooting well with your 5906 and 4006, but for others (both individuals and organizations) I contend that there were arguably superior solutions, that, as time and experience marched on, many went with. Good as yours (and your experiences with them) were, I simply don't see a lot of 3rd Generation S&W autos being used today for carry or in IDPA, at least in my neck of the woods.
Best, Jon
JodyH
09-17-2014, 01:27 PM
CS9 with a low profile one piece plastic grip = *drool*
GardoneVT
09-17-2014, 01:44 PM
I dunno man. I toted both a 5906 and a 4006 on duty, and I'm not sure how they could be "out-performed" by Sig or Beretta, as both of my guns never broke or had a failure to complete the cycle of operations. They were plenty accurate. Our guys complained about them, but it was never about reliability. Our complaints were that they were heavy (valid), TDA guns were difficult to shoot (get thee to the range), and more difficult from an armorer's perspective to support (true, I think, but from second hand knowledge.)
They were significantly more expensive than Glocks, and etc, as they were very much an "old school" design, with lots of machining and etc.
Another factor we can add to that list- user ergonomics.
As mentioned, I carried a 5904 . From an aesthetic and reliability standpoint, I loved the gun. But I put it up against my Beretta 92 on the range, and the Beretta stomped it . That ended a five year S&W lovefest which started after I saw Resovoir Dogs and bought a 4506 literally at the drop of a hat.
Why? One, user ergonomics. The gun is a punched out version of a frame design drafted in the 1950s. In its original single stack design, the S&W semi autos handle great. Those old 39s are packaged so well they feel good and carry extremely well for "full size" duty pistols. The double stack guns, however, always felt like a 2x4. Even the 3rd gens with their Delrin shaped grips only slightly improved the problem, feeling more like a 2x4 that had the corners belt sanded. I've got big hands, and after thousands of rounds with the 5904 I still had to fight the gun to get good hits in double action. No such problem with the 92s shaped frame.
And the large frame? Forget it. That was the worst day of my gun owning life when I sold the 4506, because as much as I loved the gun its the firearm equivalent of a gen 1 Dodge Viper ergonomically. In double action, the weight of the trigger combined with the thin side panels meant the pistol would shift during the DA press. No amount of grip tape, Hogue aftermarket add ons, or Pachmyer slip on grips combined with the S&W factory offerings helped.
Compare that to modern guns like the M&P or even a Sig P series, and its clear why the guns never took off.Its a real pain shooting a pistol which doesnt fit you.
At one time I took my mom to the range years back in Illinois, and she could not reach the trigger on my 5904. At . All. There's no way shed be able to work a 4506/1006 safely, and given the experience I had I'm not the least bit surprised the FBI had to go a different way. I wager things would have turned out differently had the 10mm been chambered in something like a Sig P227 or HK45.I know, experience of one and all, but thats why my collection of 5 S&W semi autos turned into 0. Ergonomics are why I own a Tanfoglio Witness 10mm , and not a S&W 1006.
BTW: if anyone from HK is reading this, they'd make a market killing if they could make a reliable HK10 out of the HK45 design.
Tamara
09-17-2014, 01:49 PM
CS9 with a low profile one piece plastic grip = *drool*
I'm planning on scrounging up a regular 3913 grip and seeing what can be done with a hot knife. ;)
Tamara
09-17-2014, 01:53 PM
BTW: if anyone from HK is reading this, they'd make a market killing if they could make a reliable HK10 out of the HK45 design.
HK is smart because they've realized that nobody's ever made a market killing in 10mm. The market has spoken, and it wasn't in 10mm-ese. That doesn't mean it won't be around for a long time as a niche caliber*, but not tooling up a gun for it is hardly leaving a ton of money on the table.
*GJM, for instance, is right smack on the bullseye for one of the few niches where the chambering makes a ton of sense.
Lester Polfus
09-17-2014, 02:12 PM
[QUOTE=GardoneVT;253604]Another factor we can add to that list- user ergonomics.
QUOTE]
That's a good point, right there. Those double stack 3rd Gen guns have some big ol' chunky butts. I am large mitt-ed and can comfortably shoot a Glock 20/21, but the 3rd Gen double stack Smiths were at the limits of what I can do, grip size wise. We issued 3906's and 3913's to folks with smaller hands.
I think the 3rd Gen guns I'd be most likely to buy these days are the single stacks.
LSP972
09-17-2014, 02:47 PM
Other that the 3913/3914 series, my impression of S&W autos in the 1990s is that they were overpriced and mediocre, and coasting on LEO contracts.
Bingo.
.
JonInWA
09-17-2014, 03:34 PM
HK is smart because they've realized that nobody's ever made a market killing in 10mm. The market has spoken, and it wasn't in 10mm-ese. That doesn't mean it won't be around for a long time as a niche caliber*, but not tooling up a gun for it is hardly leaving a ton of money on the table.
*GJM, for instance, is right smack on the bullseye for one of the few niches where the chambering makes a ton of sense.
Or, conversely, that HK may still be collectively smarting from the drubbing they took when the introduced the grossly oversized/over-engineered P7M10, aka "Das Whale"....(albeit in .40 as opposed to 10mm, but their concurrently built, but never commercially released .45 ACP variant was of a similar behemoth size...-Givn HK's proclivity of over-engineering/super-sizing when up-calibering, a 10mm HK would probably require a shoulder stock and a caddy)
(My smarmyness aside, Tam has probably nailed it. That probably also explains their decline in .357 SIG sku listings in their current production line-up).
Best, Jon
Chuck Haggard
09-17-2014, 06:08 PM
I dunno man. I toted both a 5906 and a 4006 on duty, and I'm not sure how they could be "out-performed" by Sig or Beretta, as both of my guns never broke or had a failure to complete the cycle of operations. They were plenty accurate. Our guys complained about them, but it was never about reliability. Our complaints were that they were heavy (valid), TDA guns were difficult to shoot (get thee to the range), and more difficult from an armorer's perspective to support (true, I think, but from second hand knowledge.)
I agree with most of that, especially since I often outshot people carrying Sigs who badmouthed my 5906, however I always found the 3rd gen S&Ws to be easier to tear down/detail strip than the Sigs, and much easier than the Berettas.
Lester Polfus
09-17-2014, 10:38 PM
I agree with most of that, especially since I often outshot people carrying Sigs who badmouthed my 5906, however I always found the 3rd gen S&Ws to be easier to tear down/detail strip than the Sigs, and much easier than the Berettas.
I've never detail stripped any of the three, so I can't comment. We went from 3rd Gen smiths to Glocks, and one of the justifications was the ease of maintence.
Lester Polfus
09-17-2014, 11:11 PM
HK is smart because they've realized that nobody's ever made a market killing in 10mm. The market has spoken, and it wasn't in 10mm-ese. That doesn't mean it won't be around for a long time as a niche caliber*, but not tooling up a gun for it is hardly leaving a ton of money on the table.
*GJM, for instance, is right smack on the bullseye for one of the few niches where the chambering makes a ton of sense.
Ayuh. I call the 10mm the exact right cartridge for a small group of people, and the exact wrong one for everybody else. It really is the first truly successful auto-pistol cartridge to achieve "magnum" performance levels, albeit at the .357 level. The Coonans, Wildlys, Grizzly's, Automags, Deagles and etc were all too heavy, too fragile, too expensive, and/or too dysfunctional to be taken seriously as an "outdoors person's" handgun.
Lester Polfus
09-17-2014, 11:13 PM
HK should bring back the Mk. 23 platform in 10mm. They could sell it with a drop leg holster with a training wheel at the bottom.
RevolverRob
09-17-2014, 11:40 PM
I am loving this and the 3913 thread. I'd love to get a 1076 sometime, I have a thing for old FBI guns, but haven't had much call for a 10mm. Farther north and west would be the place though. Those WVSP 4566s are beautiful guns too. My guess is Smith built them as loss leaders, recognizing that showing they will do what it takes to earn the business of American Law Enforcement means selling a lot more M&Ps to other agencies, even if they lost money building 4566s for one agency.
HK might to just focus on selling VP9s and selling them to someone big, like maybe the Border Patrol? And sell more P30s and getting Larry Vickers and Co. to sell more HK45s, and not worry about loss leaders. Because the German-side of the biz ain't looking so hot financially - https://www.moodys.com/research/Moodys-downgrades-Heckler-Koch-to-Caa3-negative-outlook--PR_307995?WT.mc_id=AM~RmluYW56ZW4ubmV0X1JTQl9SYXRp bmdzX05ld3NfTm9fVHJhbnNsYXRpb25z~20140908_PR_30799 5 - And FYI that's not the first time they've been downgraded, it happened in 2012 too.
BTW: if anyone from HK is reading this, they'd make a market killing if they could make a reliable HK10 out of the HK45 design.
It wouldn't work unless they added (hyperbole warning * Don't get your panties in a twist) a pound of steel to the slide. The SIG design (of which the HK is a copy) is basically a hammer fired striker design. In other words, no energy is consumed by cocking the hammer. This is in contrast to the 1911/1935 design, where a huge (can be in excess of 50%) amount of energy is consumed. The CZ75 was the first real step in this direction, and I question if it is the right direction.
This is why a 1911 can be a 9mm-38S-45-10mm and work acceptably with no significant changes (recoil spring, mainspring, FPS).
Though to respond to what GJM said - I think a 10mm 1911 (10 shots of 155g bullets at 1400ish FPS aren't undesirable IMHO) has a lot to offer as a sidearm for SD use. I, almost to exclusion lately, carry a CQB-E or TSG or DE.
I agree with most of that, especially since I often outshot people carrying Sigs who badmouthed my 5906, however I always found the 3rd gen S&Ws to be easier to tear down/detail strip than the Sigs, and much easier than the Berettas.
I really, truly, think the 5906 and 4006 were wonderful pistols. When I get a 9mm/40 itch I can't scratch, I go buy a version of those. They are so cheap, built like tanks, and respond sooooooooooooooooooooo nicely to a little tinkering.
I <3 3rd Gen S&Ws
Chuck Haggard
09-18-2014, 08:50 AM
My advice for people wanting a 3rd gen S&W to use for carry or as a shooter, instead of just a collector, is to avoid the FBI style decocker, big time. Seriously.
Tamara
09-18-2014, 02:14 PM
My advice for people wanting a 3rd gen S&W to use for carry or as a shooter, instead of just a collector, is to avoid the FBI style decocker, big time. Seriously.
I never trusted those. They reek of "last-minute flimsy add-on". :o
Hambo
09-18-2014, 02:53 PM
My advice for people wanting a 3rd gen S&W to use for carry or as a shooter, instead of just a collector, is to avoid the FBI style decocker, big time. Seriously.
Yeah, that didn't pan out. I saw a few weird models with this decocker back when S&W was making everything in small runs. I never heard what happened to the FBI guns, but I figure there's a few pallets of them somewhere at Quantico.
I spoke to the previous owner of the 4566 today. Told me he was a S&W armorer, and I would "love the pistol." I asked him about the safety not functioning as a decocker. Said he modified that so he could carry cocked and locked -- "just flip that safety and go to town SA." I asked him about the missing firing pin safety. Told me that "was just for the lawyers and degraded the trigger job." I thanked him for all his helpful information and asked he mail me whatever parts he still had from the pistol.
Will be sending it back to S&W ASAP.
Chuck Haggard
09-18-2014, 09:57 PM
"Trigger job" is something that should send chills down your spine.
Retardery. That gun was waiting for a slamfire to happen.
Anyway, the part of the FBI style decockers that is what one sees from the outside as the thumb tab for the decocker is on the other end a gear looking bit that when held up looks so much like Bart Simpson that this was the unofficial name for that part when I went to armorer school. That did not inspire confidence in me for some reason.
On the decocker 1076, it is actually a happy situation. The 1076 seems to be the coveted 10mm model, and brings the big bucks, making the 1066 a bargain by comparison.
Chuck Haggard
09-18-2014, 10:26 PM
I had a 1066 once, and have shot two that friends owned. Very nice guns.
Lester Polfus
09-18-2014, 10:56 PM
I spoke to the previous owner of the 4566 today. Told me he was a S&W armorer, and I would "love the pistol." I asked him about the safety not functioning as a decocker. Said he modified that so he could carry cocked and locked -- "just flip that safety and go to town SA." I asked him about the missing firing pin safety. Told me that "was just for the lawyers and degraded the trigger job." I thanked him for all his helpful information and asked he mail me whatever parts he still had from the pistol.
Will be sending it back to S&W ASAP.
That's really the sort of piddling little detail that should have been in the auction listing. The bar for me to leave bad feedback is pretty high, but that dude would have pole vaulted over it....
I bought the pistol from a gun shop that took it in on trade from the guy I spoke to. They put me in touch with the previous owner, and offered to make it right however I wanted, so I really can't fault the gun shop seller. The knucklehead previous owner that "improved" the pistol, maybe so.
Lester Polfus
09-18-2014, 11:26 PM
Oh ok, I thought it was an online auction.
Oh ok, I thought it was an online auction.
It was, GunBroker.
I bought the pistol from a gun shop that took it in on trade from the guy I spoke to. They put me in touch with the previous owner, and offered to make it right however I wanted, so I really can't fault the gun shop seller. The knucklehead previous owner that "improved" the pistol, maybe so.
A worked over 4566 is a wonderful pistol. Absolutely wonderful.
A worked over 4566 is a wonderful pistol. Absolutely wonderful.
Can you elaborate on the "worked over" process?
JR1572
09-19-2014, 10:02 AM
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=441445389
A decock only 4566?
JR1572
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=441445389
A decock only 4566?
JR1572
You forced my hand, it just went from my "watch" list to bid list. :)
3913 prices have skyrocketed during the course of that thread!
JR1572
09-19-2014, 10:07 AM
You forced my hand, it just went from my "watch" list to bid list. :)
3913 prices have skyrocketed during the course of that thread!
You're welcome.
This thread has me doing some serious thinking. I'm issued a PX4, and won't be transitioning to a Glock for possibly another year. A 3rd gen S&W semi auto wouldn't be a bad purchase if I can get one cheap.
JR1572
You're welcome.
This thread has me doing some serious thinking. I'm issued a PX4, and won't be transitioning to a Glock for possibly another year. A 3rd gen S&W semi auto wouldn't be a bad purchase if I can get one cheap.
JR1572
5906?
JR1572
09-19-2014, 10:12 AM
5906?
Really any small 9mm variant that's DA/SA with a slide mounted safety. The old value line 908 is selling for more now then they were when they were new back in the 90's...
JR1572
farscott
09-19-2014, 03:17 PM
The older S&W 3rd Generation DAO guns like the 5944, 5946, and 4046 (the 4 in the second least significant digit is DAO) are "LEM before LEM was cool" guns. The long but very smooth DAO on those early guns with the longer slides that cover more of the hammer are really nice shooters. The hammer is even partially pre-cocked by the slide in the original iteration of these guns. The idea, of course, was to provide a DA feel in an autoloader for those people who shot S&W revolvers. S&W really succeeded -- and just about no one bought them. A few agencies issued them, including the Tulsa (OK) PD, but these guns were only around for a few years in the early 1990s during the height of the "gun of the week" and the whiz wheel model decoder. They can be found for about $350 with a bit of looking and make excellent shooters.
As a side note, isn't making some money on it better than losing the sale and making no money?
You have to make more money than you would doing something else. It's possible that S&W might have been better off telling WV to pound sand and focusing on selling and shipping more M&Ps. Since that's not what they did, I guess they didn't have anything better to do. They need better sales people.
Chuck Haggard
09-19-2014, 10:31 PM
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=441445389
A decock only 4566?
JR1572
I wonder why the rail is missing?
JR1572
09-19-2014, 10:37 PM
I wonder why the rail is missing?
It's funny you ask that because I see a bunch of the TSW guns on GB and other websites missing their rails. Are they removable or do people grind them off?
JR1572
Chuck Haggard
09-19-2014, 10:40 PM
I think some admin retards may have ordered the guns with no rail because "pistols lights are bad" or something. I have seen them removed, but that leaves holes in the dustcover, that gun appears to have the holes plugged.
JR1572
09-19-2014, 10:58 PM
I think some admin retards may have ordered the guns with no rail because "pistols lights are bad" or something. I have seen them removed, but that leaves holes in the dustcover, that gun appears to have the holes plugged.
Do the railed guns fit in holsters for non-railed guns? I was thinking agencies bought new guns and would grind the rails off so they would fit in the non-railed gun holsters.
JR1572
Chuck Haggard
09-19-2014, 11:20 PM
Nope, railed TSWs need a specific holster mostly.
Tamara
09-19-2014, 11:25 PM
And not only that, but the rails are non-standard. And don't even match Smith's own Sigma rails.
Chuck Haggard
09-19-2014, 11:29 PM
Yeah, but with a wee bit of file work a guy can have a TSW that looks factory and the rail matches up to stuff that works on Glocks. They only ever made one light for the TSWs, the M5 (that I'm aware of anyway)
Gary1911A1
09-20-2014, 02:28 PM
You have to make more money than you would doing something else. It's possible that S&W might have been better off telling WV to pound sand and focusing on selling and shipping more M&Ps. Since that's not what they did, I guess they didn't have anything better to do. They need better sales people.
Don't know about the WV Contract, but some LE contracts require as long as the agency chooses to use the item, the company has to provide support. I have a 4566 and a M&P45 and while the M&P is certainly lighter the trigger sucks. Maybe S&W would be better off hiring Randy Lee as a consultant.
Can you elaborate on the "worked over" process?
Truing, squaring, polishing, refinishing.
Easy!
Truing, squaring, polishing, refinishing.
Easy!
Easy for you!
Easy for you!
Actually, once I have a couple of Commanders off my desk, I'm going to do up my 1076. I love that gun.
So I have 1066/1076 problems.
The reason I went to the 1066/1076 was because my lighter/simpler/less expensive/easier to work on, Glock 20/29 pistols wouldn't function reliably with super duper 10mm ammo. In my testing last summer, the 1066/1076 did seem to function with that heavier ammo.
Yesterday, we opened up our remote cabin, and I decided to verify zero and function with my 1066 and 1076 with the Double Tap 200 hard cast ammo I had resupplied with over the winter. First, I shot Federal 180 FMJ, which functioned fine and had minimal recoil. First magazine of hard cast, I had a stoppage on the last round of the magazine in my 1066 with the hard cast loads. Then I shot my 1076, and the trigger was dead. After some futzing between pistols, magazines and ammo, I believe, but this is just a guess, that the profile of the hard cast is somehow causing the magazine disconnect to engage.
This really pissed me off, as I would rather shoot a Glock 29 if I need to run major manufacturer FMJ/XTP or equivalent, to get the guns to run reliably.
My last effort, was a HK USP I bought over the winter. I have 100 rounds of .45 Super FMJ and will give that a go.
LSP552
05-31-2015, 10:58 AM
So I have 1066/1076 problems.
The reason I went to the 1066/1076 was because my lighter/simpler/less expensive/easier to work on, Glock 20/29 pistols wouldn't function reliably with super duper 10mm ammo. In my testing last summer, the 1066/1076 did seem to function with that heavier ammo.
Yesterday, we opened up our remote cabin, and I decided to verify zero and function with my 1066 and 1076 with the Double Tap 200 hard cast ammo I had resupplied with over the winter. First, I shot Federal 180 FMJ, which functioned fine and had minimal recoil. First magazine of hard cast, I had a stoppage on the last round of the magazine in my 1066 with the hard cast loads. Then I shot my 1076, and the trigger was dead. After some futzing between pistols, magazines and ammo, I believe, but this is just a guess, that the profile of the hard cast is somehow causing the magazine disconnect to engage.
This really pissed me off, as I would rather shoot a Glock 29 if I need to run major manufacturer FMJ/XTP or equivalent, to get the guns to run reliably.
My last effort, was a HK USP I bought over the winter. I have 100 rounds of .45 Super FMJ and will give that a go.
As much as I hate to say it, I'm not really surprised. Back in the day after they were adopted by the FBI, there were a number of 10mm problems. The local Sheriff's Office here never could get theirs to run. The Sheriff at the time being a retired FBI guy, figured they must be great and transitioned the SO to them early on.
I thinking about hard about picking up a G20 and then developing some full power reloads. That might give some more options over the factory and boutique stuff.
Chuck Haggard
05-31-2015, 11:48 AM
Not sure how ammo would cause an issue with the mag safety being activated, ammo in the magazine is nowhere near that part to be able to cause it to work/not work.
rsa-otc
05-31-2015, 11:58 AM
I am with Chuck, I don't think it is likely that the mag safety is engaged, although stanger things have happened. More likely the bullet profile is preventing the slide from going fully into battery resulting in the dead trigger.
I'll get my 1076 out when I get home and see if I can figure out what's going on there.
Not sure, rounds appeared to be chambering fully.
rsa-otc
05-31-2015, 04:33 PM
Not sure, rounds appeared to be chambering fully.
Currently will the guns still fire standard 10mm or are both guns now dead?
Currently will the guns still fire standard 10mm or are both guns now dead?
Both seem fine with Federal 180 AE FMJ.
rsa-otc
05-31-2015, 06:14 PM
I pulled out my 4506, basically the same gun with regards to the fire control mechanism. The only way I got a dead trigger was not fully inserting the magazine or the slide not being fully in battery. The mag safety works by the back of the magazine body lifting up the ejector. So unless the ejector is broken off (I have had that happen ) as long as the mag is fully inserted I doubt it has much to do with the magazine safety. Something keeping the slide from running fully into battery would be my guess.
Of course that rube Goldberg frame mounted decocker may be coming into play, but I don't know how a change in ammo would cause that to malfunction.
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