PDA

View Full Version : SIG-Neuhausen P210 Experience



JonInWA
08-07-2014, 01:33 PM
Earlier, in another thread, some of you expressed a desire for me to more completely share my P210 experience in a separate thread, which I'm happy to do.

I owned a SIG-Neuhausen P210-for about ten years; I obtained it from a local Seattle-metro gunshop in LNIB condition, and with 3 (count 'em, 3!) magazines. Although I'd have to look up the specifics, as I recall, it was a fairly late production gun, which had been languishing in SIGARMS' vault until they released them at significantly discounted prices to a distributor during one of their organizational upheavals/house-cleaning episodes. The P210 originally came with black-on-black sights, with a fairly narrow rear sight aperture, which a senior gunsmith at SIGARMS switched out for the correct pattern bar-dot von Stavenhagen configuration sights, which I much preferred.

In the relative hierarchy of SIG P210 variants, I think many purists considered these later-production P210-6s to be relatively low on the P210 desirability totem pole, but in my mind, it was somewhat akin to debating the respective merits of earlier-versus-later production Lamborghini Miuras; at the end of the day you're still talking about an extraordinary capable, limited production tool.

The accuracy, action, triggerpull, and slide reciprocation on mine were exceptional to the point of being in a class of their own; the pistol was literally that good. While I never used it as a carry gun, I did use it for occasional steel plate competitions, where I carried in in a canvas authentic Danish Army flap holster, that I obtained brand new from another P210 aficionado for a very reasonable price.

Cons of the P210: 1) Due to the slide being enclosed by the frame, the slide grasping grooves were relatively small and of limited area; combined with the positioning of the slide stop/release lever, the best way to insure a slide going into battery from slidelock was to trip the slide release with the weak hand thumb as part of the reloading sequence; 2) The magazine release was a butt-heel release, and the magazines were seemingly also friction-fit-"drop free" was deliberately NOT a design feature (presumably to minimize magazine loss on a battlefield when reloading). While not necessarily un-ergonomic, out of all the butt-heel release magazine systems, the P210's was definitely the slowest in terms of magazine extraction and re-insertion. Newer/current SIG-Sauer "Legend" models offer a push-button alternative if you want a speed-loadable P210. 3) The safety lever's positioning and activation was an acquired skill; it was effective, with decent sized shelf, but the ergonomics of use were, well, somewhat challenging. Pretty much next to those required of a Beretta 1934/1935..., and equal to the earlier-generation Ruger P85 safety levers.

Why did I sell mine? Well, as magnificent as it was, I was very rarely inclined to shoot it. And once IDPA became my main competitive venue, almost never. I'd be surprised if when I sold it if I had put much more than 500 rounds through the gun. One IDPA fellow competitor who also had a P210 and I talked about jointly campaigning out respective P210s in an IDPA match, but we never got around to it. Quite simply, in my arguably stilted mind, I ascribe a higher value to a gun that I can both appreciate, admire, and use in my shooting venues of choice.

And then I had an exceptionally evil "friend," AKA the Nighthawk Custom Account Rep, Rob Potter, who had been systemically twisting my arm to acquire one of Nighthawk Custom's 1911s. Rob and Mark Stone at Nighthawk Custom really went out of their way for me to get exactly what I wanted, and then some, and in a reasonable timeframe to boot. Selling the P210-6 fully financed (with a bit left over) my truly custom spec'ced (pretty much by individual component) Talon II. I had an opportunity to commission a custom-spec 1911, and I have no regrets about sellng the P210 as the vehicle necessary to accomplish it. Also, at the time I sold the P210-6, the series was discontinued, and my perception was that SIG would be capable of increasingly diminishing levels of support. So, due to no brilliance on my part, I sold at pretty much at the top of the market for my specific P210 variant, and at a time that I was concerned that rudimentary parts stockages (such as recoil spring assemblies) would become increasingly difficult (and disproportionately expensive) to find. While I considered my P210-6 to be at a higher level of individual and collective component durability than, say, may HK P7 PSP (which I also had previously sold), it was still a concern (although considering my useage level, probably not really a significant one), and there were no indications that SIG-Sauer would re-introduce the P210 (as the subsequently did). Was the P210-6 a superior gun to my Nighthawk Custom Talon II? Probably. But the Nighthawk is to my specifications, and meets my specific needs better (and you can dub this sentence in a Bart Simpson voice for maximum effect).

Is a P210 a viable purchase today? Absolutely. The guns are at the pinnacle of where manufacturing meets art. Their accuracy and fit is superb, and finishes are very nicely applied nd relatively durable. Its a gun that you can use without in my opinion significantly diminishing your investment value (relatively speaking, and albeit relatively sparingly and carefully, in at least somewhat controlled/constrained environments). They are a great "bucket list" pistol, and still relatively available, and at somewhat accessible pricing.

Are they a viable duty/carry gun? C'mon. Yeah, you could-they were, after all, a post-WWII duty pistol for several armed forces, notably the Swiss Army, the Danish Army, and the West German Border Police. While they're accurate as all get-out, and easily maintained, it makes far, far more sense to simply go with a Glock G17 (or similar) these days for a duty/carry pistol in it's size configuration. My P210-6 was probably one of the best pistols I've ever possessed (or will likely ever possess-but my needs and inclinations have shifted. It's an itch I'm glad I was able to scratch-but I get far more use out of my Glocks (yeah, I hear the burning-on-the-stake mob gathering force on the streets below...), as well as the Nighthawk Custom Talon II that I had commissioned on the proceeds of the P210's sale.

My P210-6 was a pleasure to own, hold, manipulate and shoot. Unfortunately I don't have any images of it to share, but it was a box-stock, matte blued, standard-gripped P210-6, so images are easily acquired with a modicum of internet searching.

If anyone has any more questions, feel free to ask on the thread, and I'll (or others) will certainly do my best to answer.

Best, Jon

JHC
08-07-2014, 01:52 PM
That's a wicked cool tale. It's a bucket list gun of mine. Was it's SA trigger pretty much like a very nice 1911 trigger?

TGS
08-07-2014, 02:32 PM
That's a wicked cool tale. It's a bucket list gun of mine. Was it's SA trigger pretty much like a very nice 1911 trigger?

My response from shooting a P210-1 that BaiHu owned is emphatically no.

I still feel very lucky for having the opportunity to shoot it, but a 1911 has a better trigger and much better safety location, IMO.

Not to mention the gun is sighted from the factory for 50m.....

JonInWA
08-07-2014, 02:49 PM
The 210-1 if I recall correctly are the basic Swiss military contract guns; the 210-5 and 210-6 have more cleaned up/lighter triggers (as do possibly other variants). My 210-6 had an exceptional trigger-at least as good as a semi-custom or bespoke 4'-5' set 1911 triggerpull-and that in spite of the P210 possessing a pivot-type trigger, as opposed to the 1911's straight-back type trigger.

The 1911 manual safety lever is unarguably superior in terms of location and ergonomics to that of the P210-even with the base military issue 1911 and 1911A1 models.

But then you can conversely argue that the 1911 is saddled with the potentially challenging grip safety, which thankfully the P210 doesn't have.

Best, Jon

Jaywalker
08-07-2014, 04:31 PM
I paid $500 for my P210-1 variant in 1975 and kept it for about 10 years and sold it for $900. I didn't fire it much, either, for various reasons - cost of 9mm at the time, job pressures, ill fit for my hands, and probably mostly, it was just too good to take outside. (Lots of folks wanted to try it out.) My trigger was similar in quality to that of the single action pull of the S&W Model 19 I had at the time - absolutely fantastic. I recall working the slide just to experience the "oil-between-two-pieces-of-glass" feel. Still, I couldn't reach the safety with my thumb, the wooden grips were too big for my hands, and I could never imagine using it as a self-defense tool, so I passed it on to someone who wanted it more than I did.

B0308
08-07-2014, 11:42 PM
I owned a P210-6, about 1983-88, bought it from a guy who bought it while on active duty in Europe. It was everything a last century Swiss made pistol should be, finely machined and fitted like a Swiss watch, way more accurate than I could every be. Almost too nice to shoot and not really what I'd choose for serious personal defense work. I can only imagine what replacement parts would cost. I do recall I sold it for more than twice what I paid. Wish I'd taken a picture of it however.

zeleny
08-08-2014, 08:19 PM
I have twelve Neuhausen pistols and an early production P210 Legend. I carry and shoot them more than any other kind of centerfire handgun. Over countless thousands of rounds, I've had to replace one chipped (but still functional) extractor, and one set (but still functional) trigger spring. The recoil spring, in particular, never seems to lose its tension, even after decades of hard Danish military service. Spare parts are readily available, from Gun Factory Rudolfstetten (https://www.gunfactory.ch/index.htm) in Switzerland, CDS Ehrenreich (http://www.asamnet.de/~ehrenred/ersatzt/sig210.htm) in Germany, and Bisgaard & Nielsen (http://www.bisgaardnielsen.dk/group.asp?group=285) in Sweden.

My best guns are forged heavy frame variants from the late Seventies, which benefited from factory tuning. oOn the Lyman electronic trigger gauge, the trigger of a heavy frame SIG P210-6, serial number P79608, yields a weight of 1.2kg, averaged over 10 pulls. Its immediate heavy frame successor, P79609, fitted with a National Match hammer, releases the sear at an average of 1.23kg. Likewise the heavy frame P210-6, serial number P79103 in 7.65 Para, at 1.24kg. That's about as good as you can get in a tuned service grade self-loading pistol, and much lighter than Swiss pistol target shooting competitions allow, by requiring a trigger weight above 1500 grams. More typical are the measurements of the heavy frame SIG P210-6, serial number P79136, which yields a weight of 1.82kg, averaged over 10 pulls, the Borchardt C93, serial number 1774, releasing the striker at 2.59kg, and the Krieghoff P08, serial number 3249, weighing in at a hefty 3.48kg.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-wmTiaMTXs5M/UWRykIHggJI/AAAAAAAAD30/BCRfiQd2LVw/w864-h767-no/P79608a.jpg
More Swiss service pistol trigger pull weights follow:

P06/1929 SN 71644: 3.80kg;
P06/1929 SN 77493: 2.57kg;
P06/1929 National Match SN 59951: 2.64kg;
P06/1929 National Match SN 65721: 2.15kg;
P210-6 SN P86618: 1.78kg;
P210-2 SN P79980: 1.67kg;
P210-1 SN P77209: 1.94kg;
P210-2 SN P74064: 1.86kg;
P49 SN A204931: 2.88kg;
P49 SN A156213: 2.90kg;
P49 SN A107159: 2.75kg;
P49 SN A105553: 2.56kg.
All are two stage, with a very crisp stage transition (Druckpunkt). You can tell which guns have been resprung.

TGS
08-08-2014, 08:56 PM
I have twelve Neuhausen pistols and an early production P210 Legend. I carry and shoot them more than any other kind of centerfire handgun.

What do you think of your P210 Legend?

JonInWA
08-08-2014, 11:02 PM
I have twelve Neuhausen pistols and an early production P210 Legend. I carry and shoot them more than any other kind of centerfire handgun. Over countless thousands of rounds, I've had to replace one chipped (but still functional) extractor, and one set (but still functional) trigger spring. The recoil spring, in particular, never seems to lose its tension, even after decades of hard Danish military service. Spare parts are readily available, from Gun Factory Rudolfstetten (https://www.gunfactory.ch/index.htm) in Switzerland, CDS Ehrenreich (http://www.asamnet.de/~ehrenred/ersatzt/sig210.htm) in Germany, and Bisgaard & Nielsen (http://www.bisgaardnielsen.dk/group.asp?group=285) in Sweden.

My best guns are forged heavy frame variants from the late Seventies, which benefited from factory tuning. oOn the Lyman electronic trigger gauge, the trigger of a heavy frame SIG P210-6, serial number P79608, yields a weight of 1.2kg, averaged over 10 pulls. Its immediate heavy frame successor, P79609, fitted with a National Match hammer, releases the sear at an average of 1.23kg. Likewise the heavy frame P210-6, serial number P79103 in 7.65 Para, at 1.24kg. That's about as good as you can get in a tuned service grade self-loading pistol, and much lighter than Swiss pistol target shooting competitions allow, by requiring a trigger weight above 1500 grams. More typical are the measurements of the heavy frame SIG P210-6, serial number P79136, which yields a weight of 1.82kg, averaged over 10 pulls, the Borchardt C93, serial number 1774, releasing the striker at 2.59kg, and the Krieghoff P08, serial number 3249, weighing in at a hefty 3.48kg.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-wmTiaMTXs5M/UWRykIHggJI/AAAAAAAAD30/BCRfiQd2LVw/w864-h767-no/P79608a.jpg
More Swiss service pistol trigger pull weights follow:

P06/1929 SN 71644: 3.80kg;
P06/1929 SN 77493: 2.57kg;
P06/1929 National Match SN 59951: 2.64kg;
P06/1929 National Match SN 65721: 2.15kg;
P210-6 SN P86618: 1.78kg;
P210-2 SN P79980: 1.67kg;
P210-1 SN P77209: 1.94kg;
P210-2 SN P74064: 1.86kg;
P49 SN A204931: 2.88kg;
P49 SN A156213: 2.90kg;
P49 SN A107159: 2.75kg;
P49 SN A105553: 2.56kg.
All are two stage, with a very crisp stage transition (Druckpunkt). You can tell which guns have been resprung.

Michael, great to see you on board and responding to this thread. Guys, Michael is the SIG P210 expert.

Best, Jon

Clyde from Carolina
08-09-2014, 09:20 AM
Great thread. Thank you for the wealth of information, gents.

zeleny
08-09-2014, 02:20 PM
What do you think of your P210 Legend?It's a travesty. SIG Sauer took a unique sidearm, a target grade military issue autopistol, and compromised its accuracy and reliability in one fell swoop.

I have updated my review:
http://larvatus.livejournal.com/283813.html

faksen
08-09-2014, 04:19 PM
Sold my S&W 1911 Pro in 9mm, made to be competitive in IPSC Classic division. And bought a Sig P210 Silver Target, i dont use safety and i use weak hand on slide stopp, so for me the gun have only one problem: The grips have hand svell and arched back strap, grips on original 210-5 and 6 is mutch bether for my short fingers. I have sendt a request to Nill about making grips like the old ones with checered backstrap and less arch and no hand svell.

Other than that the gun is bether than 1911 witch need a few trips to gun smith for trigger work, thin grips, wide safety, pinned grip safety.

LtDave
08-11-2014, 09:45 AM
Sold my S&W 1911 Pro in 9mm, made to be competitive in IPSC Classic division. And bought a Sig P210 Silver Target, i dont use safety and i use weak hand on slide stopp, so for me the gun have only one problem: The grips have hand svell and arched back strap, grips on original 210-5 and 6 is mutch bether for my short fingers. I have sendt a request to Nill about making grips like the old ones with checered backstrap and less arch and no hand svell.

Other than that the gun is bether than 1911 witch need a few trips to gun smith for trigger work, thin grips, wide safety, pinned grip safety.

You might want to look at these for the P210:

http://www.grips4u.net/category/pistol-grips/sigarms-sig-sauer/

I've bought several grips from them for a variety of pistols and have been very pleased with all of them.

zeleny
08-11-2014, 11:02 AM
You might want to look at these for the P210:

http://www.grips4u.net/category/pistol-grips/sigarms-sig-sauer/

I've bought several grips from them for a variety of pistols and have been very pleased with all of them.P210 Legend stocks are different from those that fit the Swiss heavy frame models, in requiring additional relief cuts for the safety detent mechanism.

JonInWA
08-11-2014, 11:52 AM
P210 Legend stocks are different from those that fit the Swiss heavy frame models, in requiring additional relief cuts for the safety detent mechanism.

The last two 210 grips on that site are apparently specifically for the Legend, with its left-side push-button magazine release.

Best, Jon

Mjolnir
08-13-2014, 07:47 AM
Awesome read.

Thanks.