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View Full Version : Dept. Of agriculture orders ballistic body armor



av8usn
08-06-2014, 09:51 AM
The militarization of the Feds. continues unabated.

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2014/05/15/Dept-of-Agriculture-Orders-Ballistic-Body-Armor

WobblyPossum
08-06-2014, 11:16 AM
I'm a little confused why this is news. A law enforcement agency ordered body armor for its agents.

Dagga Boy
08-06-2014, 11:33 AM
http://www.odmp.org/officer/22038-officer-jason-crisp

Because you would rather see officers killed rather than have armor. Thanks assh@le. And yes, I would be happy to say that to your face.

JV_
08-06-2014, 11:40 AM
Thanks assh@le. And yes, I would be happy to say that to your face.

If you can't participate in a thread without name-calling, then don't post. Simply posting your link as an example of why the'd need armor would have been sufficient.

Dagga Boy
08-06-2014, 11:43 AM
The militarization of the Feds. continues unabated.

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2014/05/15/Dept-of-Agriculture-Orders-Ballistic-Body-Armor

When people think it's okay for LEO's to not have the most basic safety equipment is wrong becomes okie dokie in an LEO forum, then you're right, I shouldn't participate. Thanks, it's been fun.

JV_
08-06-2014, 11:44 AM
It is possible for someone to not know that DoA folks engage in arrests and other things that might require that type of gear.

okie john
08-06-2014, 11:45 AM
The militarization of the Feds. continues unabated.

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2014/05/15/Dept-of-Agriculture-Orders-Ballistic-Body-Armor

If I remember correctly, the Ag guys investigate food stamp fraud, which takes place mostly in urban environments and is carried out by organized criminal enterprises, especially the Russian mob.

Body armor and SMGs make a lot of sense for that.


Okie John

jlw
08-06-2014, 11:53 AM
So, basic concealable body armor is an example of militarization?

John Hearne
08-06-2014, 12:05 PM
Wow, police carrying submachine guns and automatic rifles - kinda like Thompsons, BARs, and whatever auto rifle Frank Hamer carried.....

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk

Alpha Sierra
08-06-2014, 12:10 PM
It's breitbart, consider the source.

Alpha Sierra
08-06-2014, 12:11 PM
The militarization of the Feds. continues unabated.

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2014/05/15/Dept-of-Agriculture-Orders-Ballistic-Body-Armor

I'm as much opposed to the real militarization of police as you can get, but this isn't it.

nwhpfan
08-06-2014, 12:14 PM
The militarization of the Feds. continues unabated.

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2014/05/15/Dept-of-Agriculture-Orders-Ballistic-Body-Armor

Generally these types of posts are what sour threads and catagories like this. IMO it's best to fully understand an issue before just spouting off.

The "militarization of the Feds continues unabated” Please, tell us more. Cops having body armor and AR’s are nothing new. If you think cops shouldn't have this, tell us why.

I looked up what the Dept. of Ag OIG does. It seems like an LE agency that may need this sort of thing.

Now, it would just be ignorant to think the Federal LEO's of the US Dept. of Agriculture Forest Service don't need this sort of thing.

Pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978 and Section 1337 of the Agriculture and Food Act of 1981 (P.L. 97-98), OIG Investigations is the law enforcement arm of the Department, with Department-wide investigative jurisdiction. OIG Special Agents conduct investigations of significant criminal activities involving USDA programs, operations, and personnel, and are authorized to make arrests, execute warrants, and carry firearms. The types of investigations conducted by OIG Special Agents involve criminal activities such as frauds in subsidy, price support, benefits, and insurance programs; significant thefts of Government property or funds; bribery; extortion; smuggling; and assaults on employees. Investigations involving criminal activity that affects the health and safety of the public, such as meat packers who knowingly sell hazardous food products and individuals who tamper with food regulated by USDA, are also high-profile investigative priorities. In addition, OIG Special Agents are poised to provide emergency law enforcement response to USDA declared emergencies and suspected incidents of terrorism affecting USDA regulated industries, as well as USDA programs, operations, personnel, and installations, in coordination with Federal, State, and local law enforcement agencies, as appropriate.

nwhpfan
08-06-2014, 12:16 PM
I'm as much opposed to the real militarization of police as you can get, but this isn't it.

It's responses like this that make me wish we had a "thumbs up" or "+1" button.

Beat Trash
08-06-2014, 02:23 PM
If I remember correctly, the Ag guys investigate food stamp fraud, which takes place mostly in urban environments and is carried out by organized criminal enterprises, especially the Russian mob.

Body armor and SMGs make a lot of sense for that.


Okie John

Food stamp fraud is a high dollar business. I've seen people willing to shoot/kill for much less.

With that thought in mind, any agency that has powers of arrest and do so, needs to have the equipment and training to do so safely.

vcdgrips
08-06-2014, 02:30 PM
1. Nyeti was spot on.
2.John Hearne was spot on.
3. The source is nothing but troll food.

David Barnes

av8usn
08-06-2014, 02:47 PM
I apparently misunderstood the role of DOA. And no, I do not believe any L.E.O. should not be fully trained, armed and protected. I would appreciate removal of this thread, and my apologies for the error.

KevinB
08-06-2014, 02:56 PM
Wow, police carrying submachine guns and automatic rifles - kinda like Thompsons, BARs, and whatever auto rifle Frank Hamer carried.....

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk

But if you were to burn down Bonnie and Clyde today while smoking a cigar you'd be fired...

JodyH
08-06-2014, 03:38 PM
I do think we have too many federal agencies with enforcement authority that extends down to individual arrest powers.
I think more federal agencies should have their enforcement authority limited to the "paperwork investigations" level and consolidate the arrest authority into just one or two agencies that serve warrants on their behalf.
That being said...
Those agents tasked with making arrests should have the equipment they need to perform those duties safely and efficiently.

Dan_S
08-06-2014, 03:44 PM
Here's what ELSE the feds need this body armor for.


http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/may/13/mopping-up-the-raw-milk-mob/

This is very troubling for those of us in agricultural communities, or whose livelihoods depend on agricultural resources. Forgive me, but I don't want the feds having any more toys.

jlw
08-06-2014, 03:45 PM
I do think we have too many federal agencies with enforcement authority that extends down to individual arrest powers.
I think more federal agencies should have their enforcement authority limited to the "paperwork investigations" level and consolidate the arrest authority into just one or two agencies that serve warrants on their behalf.
That being said...
Those agents tasked with making arrests should have the equipment they need to perform those duties safely and efficiently.

And since warrants appear without any field work or interviews, that would work well...

Chuck Haggard
08-06-2014, 03:47 PM
I do think we have too many federal agencies with enforcement authority that extends down to individual arrest powers.
I think more federal agencies should have their enforcement authority limited to the "paperwork investigations" level and consolidate the arrest authority into just one or two agencies that serve warrants on their behalf.
That being said...
Those agents tasked with making arrests should have the equipment they need to perform those duties safely and efficiently.



I think that sometimes, but then I think about how specialized some of this stuff gets. I know way more about gang-bangers and street crime than any Fed ever. What do I know about food stamp fraud being used by illegals from the Middle East funneling the funds to Hamas? Trafficking in illegally hunted endangered species parts? Toxic waste dumping?
Not nearly as much.

Chuck Haggard
08-06-2014, 03:48 PM
Here's what ELSE the feds need this body armor for.


http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/may/13/mopping-up-the-raw-milk-mob/

This is very troubling for those of us in agricultural communities, or whose livelihoods depend on agricultural resources. Forgive me, but I don't want the feds having any more toys.

So gun owners should also be disarmed because gang-bangers do bad things with guns?

Josh Runkle
08-06-2014, 03:59 PM
I do think we have too many federal agencies with enforcement authority that extends down to individual arrest powers.
I think more federal agencies should have their enforcement authority limited to the "paperwork investigations" level and consolidate the arrest authority into just one or two agencies that serve warrants on their behalf.
That being said...
Those agents tasked with making arrests should have the equipment they need to perform those duties safely and efficiently.

Absolutely. Can't say it any better than this.

jlw
08-06-2014, 04:01 PM
And arrest warrants never come after search warrants and nothing ever goes bad with those.

Josh Runkle
08-06-2014, 04:03 PM
I think that sometimes, but then I think about how specialized some of this stuff gets. I know way more about gang-bangers and street crime than any Fed ever. What do I know about food stamp fraud being used by illegals from the Middle East funneling the funds to Hamas? Trafficking in illegally hunted endangered species parts? Toxic waste dumping?
Not nearly as much.

If a single agency had these responsibilities they would have hundreds, maybe thousands of divisions, and millions of agents. Instead we spread it out into hundreds of agencies (the US has 16 intelligence agencies, for example, when it should have maybe 2). Why? Because the American Public would not tolerate the way the American Government works if they were aware to the truth.

That being said, the people on the ground deserve our support, as they do not create policy and simply represent the government.

ETA: sorry, actually 17 intelligence agencies. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Intelligence_Community

Chuck Haggard
08-06-2014, 04:07 PM
People get the LE that they vote for.


I'll note that would any of us want the same guys running the entire show that were running the ATF when F&F went down?

At least thing being spread out means that not everyone is screwed up all at the same time, mostly.

Dan_S
08-06-2014, 04:13 PM
So gun owners should also be disarmed because gang-bangers do bad things with guns?

I fail to follow you. That has nothing to do with the application of these so-called "necessary" pieces of equipment, or their usage, which is inappropriate.




What I see, is a bunch of over-armed and under-brained feds, packing tens of thousands of dollars-worth of gear, to raid farms for supposed violations. How that could possibly equate to gang-bangers and gun-control....well, that's puzzling.

Stephen
08-06-2014, 04:19 PM
People get the LE that they vote for.


I'll note that would any of us want the same guys running the entire show that were running the ATF when F&F went down?

At least thing being spread out means that not everyone is screwed up all at the same time, mostly.

I won't pretend to be knowledgeable enough to know how it should be done, but I have to assume some consolidation would increase efficiency. Its pretty ridiculous how many agencies we have and how large they are. But Chuck brings up a good point. Imagine how much easier it would be for Obama to remake various agencies in his image if command was more centralized.

TSH
08-06-2014, 04:25 PM
Here's what ELSE the feds need this body armor for.


http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/may/13/mopping-up-the-raw-milk-mob/

This is very troubling for those of us in agricultural communities, or whose livelihoods depend on agricultural resources. Forgive me, but I don't want the feds having any more toys.

Ballistic body armor hardly falls in to the "toy" category.
I suppose we should make sure the Feds don't have access to other life saving equipment, like AEDs and tourniquet kits. Cause, you know, tyranny and stuff...

JodyH
08-06-2014, 04:32 PM
And arrest warrants never come after search warrants and nothing ever goes bad with those.
And there's no department of redundancy department in federal law enforcement...

HCM
08-06-2014, 04:52 PM
Generally these types of posts are what sour threads and catagories like this. IMO it's best to fully understand an issue before just spouting off.

The "militarization of the Feds continues unabated” Please, tell us more. Cops having body armor and AR’s are nothing new. If you think cops shouldn't have this, tell us why.

I looked up what the Dept. of Ag OIG does. It seems like an LE agency that may need this sort of thing.

Now, it would just be ignorant to think the Federal LEO's of the US Dept. of Agriculture Forest Service don't need this sort of thing.

Pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978 and Section 1337 of the Agriculture and Food Act of 1981 (P.L. 97-98), OIG Investigations is the law enforcement arm of the Department, with Department-wide investigative jurisdiction. OIG Special Agents conduct investigations of significant criminal activities involving USDA programs, operations, and personnel, and are authorized to make arrests, execute warrants, and carry firearms. The types of investigations conducted by OIG Special Agents involve criminal activities such as frauds in subsidy, price support, benefits, and insurance programs; significant thefts of Government property or funds; bribery; extortion; smuggling; and assaults on employees. Investigations involving criminal activity that affects the health and safety of the public, such as meat packers who knowingly sell hazardous food products and individuals who tamper with food regulated by USDA, are also high-profile investigative priorities. In addition, OIG Special Agents are poised to provide emergency law enforcement response to USDA declared emergencies and suspected incidents of terrorism affecting USDA regulated industries, as well as USDA programs, operations, personnel, and installations, in coordination with Federal, State, and local law enforcement agencies, as appropriate.

In addition to Ag OIG, the U.S. Dept of Agriculture includes the U.S. Forest Service which has uniformed rangers and criminal investigators who enforce both state and federal laws in National Forests.

The rangers patrol remote areas, often alone, far from back up and they see all types of crimes. Like U.S. Border Patrol Agents, they also regularly provide assistance to the local and states agencies in their areas which are normally remote and thinly staffed.

In many areas these officers are regularly dealing with meth labs and large scale marijuana grow operations staffed by armed Mexican nationals illegally in the United States. I can tell you from personal experience body armor and ARs are more than justified in these situations.

jlw
08-06-2014, 04:55 PM
People who worry about federal law enforcement becoming a serious threat to the Republic have never worked with federal law enforcement. Individual agents and field offices can do very good jobs, but on the whole they are incredibly disorganized, bureaucratic, and have deep abiding phobias of making a decision. It amuses me that people who decry the power of federal law enforcement actually want to centralize the power structure. I guess some folks like returning their own serves.

smithjd
08-06-2014, 04:57 PM
I work with US Forest Service LEO's and SA's. A very good group of cops.

Also try a web search for "Chinese espionage Iowa corn".

It's a big wide world out there.

Alpha Sierra
08-06-2014, 05:02 PM
I do think we have too many federal agencies with enforcement authority that extends down to individual arrest powers.
I think more federal agencies should have their enforcement authority limited to the "paperwork investigations" level and consolidate the arrest authority into just one or two agencies that serve warrants on their behalf.
That being said...
Those agents tasked with making arrests should have the equipment they need to perform those duties safely and efficiently.

I'll go one better and scale back the entire scope of the federal government only to what is defensible via a literal reading of the constitution. That means that Agriculture, Interior, Education, Energy, Homeland Security, and Health and Human Services disappear completely.

The agencies that make up DHS now go back to where they came from.

The remaining departments (State, Commerce, Justice, Transportation) get their budgets cut by 50% and reallocated to the USBP.

DoD stays as is.

The Federal tax burden gets reduced on everyone. States can pick up whatever functions they wish off the list of scrapped departments (and pay for them) as stipulated by the 10th Amendment.

JodyH
08-06-2014, 05:02 PM
People who worry about federal law enforcement becoming a serious threat to the Republic have never worked with federal law enforcement. Individual agents and field offices can do very good jobs, but on the whole they are incredibly disorganized, bureaucratic, and have deep abiding phobias of making a decision. It amuses me that people who decry the power of federal law enforcement actually want to centralize the power structure. I guess some folks like returning their own serves.
Fragmentation tends to breed disorganization and extraneous bureaucracy.
Yes, centralization leads to more amassed power for a single entity. But it also makes for a single line of accountability.

HCM
08-06-2014, 05:16 PM
http://www.wbtw.com/story/24968980/forestry-officer-and-his-k-9-killed-in-nc-shootout-with-murder-suspect

U.S. Forest Service Ranger and his K-9 partner killed in shoot out with murder suspect.

KeeFus
08-06-2014, 05:21 PM
The militarization of the Feds. continues unabated.

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2014/05/15/Dept-of-Agriculture-Orders-Ballistic-Body-Armor

Didn't take long for this thread to go to crap.

The last 3 LODD's with the Dept. Of Agriculture have been by gunfire...3 since 2008. Because you know, body armor for law enforcement is so faux pas, what were they thinking...:rolleyes:

http://www.odmp.org/agency/3949-united-states-department-of-agriculture-forest-service-law-enforcement-and-investigations-us-government

TCinVA
08-06-2014, 05:25 PM
The law enforcement forum here does not exist so that somebody with an axe to grind has a place to troll. If you have a hard on for cops so bad that you feel the need to hop on a forum and complain that sworn LE are being issued a basic piece of safety gear, there are hundreds of forums that will welcome it.

This one won't.

This kind of nonsense never happens again on this forum.

Ever.