Trap shooting & feet

[JV_]

I've been watching a few trap shooting videos, some by top shooters, and it shows them resting the barrel of their o/u (opened) on their toes - with some special pad.

Check out 0:12, 0:45, 1:07, 1:18, 1:28 ..... I'm losing count

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2mW6wE_R78&t=0m12s


So .... it's OK to violate one of the basic rules because the action is open? Many sweep their legs when holstering a handgun, is this similar?

[Kyle Reese]

I've seen people do this with semi autos and pump guns at a local trap club, and they're the same folks who seem to sweep everyone on the line with finger on the trigger, etc.

It seems like an easy way to experience a massive owie of the foot if Cletus McGoober touches off a Winchester AA trap round into his foot while fiddlin' with his shotgun on the line.

[orionz06]

With trap in particular I could see reasoning to make that OK but these folks are also OK with pointing the muzzles at people when walking around as long as things are broke open. That is a no-go for me.


As for sweeping legs when holstering I find many more OWB carriers to do this than well practiced AIWB carriers. Derp is as derp does.

[JV_]

these folks are also OK with pointing the muzzles at people when walking around as long as things are broke open.That was my next question.

I have a new interest in trap and skeet, and I have a nice facility near me, but it sounds like I won't like the safety culture.

[Kyle Reese]

That was my next question.

I have a new interest in trap and skeet, and I have a nice facility near me, but it sounds like I won't like the safety culture.

If you tell them to stop pointing their shotguns in an unsafe direction, chances are you'll be given the maloika.

[Alpha Sierra]

So .... it's OK to violate one of the basic rules because the action is open? Many sweep their legs when holstering a handgun, is this similar?
Yes. No.

[Alpha Sierra]

As a long time skeet and sporting clays shooter, I'm going to say a few things then back out:

1) An open double gun is no more dangerous than a broomstick, even if there is ammo in the chambers (which there shouldn't be). It's a mechanical impossibility for a double gun to fire if the action is open. That is beyond argument.

2) If you go to a skeet/trap/sporting clays facility you will have to deal with a different set of gun handling rules/culture. If you cannot accept that, please don't go. You will not change anything/anyone and will be miserable.

[JV_]

I'm going to say a few things then back out:I'm not particularly interested in drive by posts, if you have something worthwhile to say then participate.


1) An open double gun is no more dangerous than a broomstick, even if there is ammo in the chambers (which there shouldn't be). It's a mechanical impossibility for a double gun to fire if the action is open. That is beyond argument.So, it's no different than a semi-auto with the slide locked back and no mag in the gun? In the pistol world, you still don't point those at people.

[Alpha Sierra]

I'm not particularly interested in drive by posts, if you have something worthwhile to say then participate.
I said what I said because it's true and I know of no other way to say it. I sort of knew I would get the reaction I did and hesitated to even say anything, but there you go. What would you consider worthwhile then? An echo chamber affirmation of your opinion?

It's a different culture and it will not change. You either accept it or you will be frustrated and will eventually leave.


So, it's no different than a semi-auto with the slide locked back and no mag in the gun? In the pistol world, you still don't point those at people.
Once again, the clays world is not the pistol world.

[LittleLebowski]

Really sounds like a culture sub-set.

[JV_]

It's a different culture and it will not change. You either accept it or you will be frustrated and will eventually leave. I was asking if it's common over there, and why it's acceptable. You've answered the former and not the latter.

I'm not looking for an answer that consists of: just accept it or move on. If that's all you have, I'd prefer you follow-through with your initial post and run mentality.

[JV_]

Really sounds like a culture sub-set.Agreed. What other subsets have more relaxed safety standards? Pistol, carbine and long range/benchrest all seem to be on a somewhat level playing field.

[Alpha Sierra]

I was asking if it's common over there, and why it's acceptable. You've answered the former and not the latter.
I told you why it is acceptable. You cannot be shot with an open shotgun. That's a physical/mechanical fact, regardless of whatever "rules" Jeff Cooper wrote down.

[JV_]

Practically every other discipline uses the same set of gun safety rules, except for shotgunners. That's noteworthy.

You can't be shot if my finger isn't on the trigger of the DA gun, but we don't rely on that as our argument to violate the rules that everyone else has accepted as a standard.

[LittleLebowski]

Agreed. What other subsets have more relaxed safety standards? Pistol, carbine and long range/benchrest all seem to be on a somewhat level playing field.

Good point. I know nothing about this sport; is it just much, much easier to point the shotgun at your feet? Is it that much trouble to follow the rules that pistol, carbine, and rifle shooters follow? Genuinely curious (shotguns aren't used much in Wyoming).

[JV_]

is it just much, much easier to point the shotgun at your feet? When FredM and I shot clays in his backyard as kids, we still managed to find ways to avoid it.

It looks like laziness to me. I think they get tired of holding the gun while other people on the different stations (right word?) take their turn. They'd rather rest it on their toes, with a special pad, than rest it on the concrete.

[Alpha Sierra]

They'd rather rest it on their toes, with a special pad, than rest it on the concrete.
Considering that most target grade shotguns start at $2000 and go on up from there quite quickly, no, you will not find too many people resting their muzzles on concrete.

[Alpha Sierra]

Practically every other discipline uses the same set of gun safety rules, except for shotgunners. That's noteworthy.

You can't be shot if my finger isn't on the trigger of the DA gun, but we don't rely on that as our argument to violate the rules that everyone else has accepted as a standard.
I don't know what to tell you. You will not change these clay sport specific practices, so my original suggestion to accept it or not participate is still realistic.

[JV_]

Considering that most target grade shotguns start at $2000 and go on up from there quite quickly, no, you will not find too many people resting their muzzles on concrete.

It was a joke, the alternative to putting it on your foot is to HOLD it.

[JV_]

I don't know what to tell you. It's OK, you can stop posting in this thread - no problem.

[hufnagel]

From watching the video I observed the following...

The gun she's using is exceedingly long (and I'm going to guess not all that light weight as a result), to the point that when she brakes it open the muzzle is mere inches (or less) from the ground as she's reloading. Perhaps the practice and subsequent acceptance of Rule 2 violation is somewhat out of necessity due to the design of the weapons involved.

I'm not saying I'm agree with it, but as AS pointed out there is a cultural component that may have developed from the above.

I will also add, my informal monthly get together with the locals who shoot little orange discs would NOT take kindly to any failure to observe all 4 rules. But then no one shows up with anything remotely resembling that lady's firearm. We've had a few guys come with break action shotguns, but they strictly observe the 4 rules.

[JV_]

The gun she's using is exceedingly long (and I'm going to guess not all that light weight as a result), to the point that when she brakes it open the muzzle is mere inches (or less) from the ground as she's reloadingI wonder if she's short too. That could exacerbate the issue.


I will also add, my informal monthly get together with the locals who shoot little orange discs would NOT take kindly to any failure to observe all 4 rules.What's their background? Did they come from another discipline and just do it occasionally, or is that where the started?

[MDS]

I wonder if there's a "skeet foot" phenomenon analogous to glock leg?

[hufnagel]

I wonder if she's short too. That could exacerbate the issue.

Possible. Sample of 1 is always a poor set. :)


What's their background? Did they come from another discipline and just do it occasionally, or is that where the started?

Most if not all of the people who go enjoy the use of other types of firearms as well. Otherwise if the "background" question pertains to other things, they come from all walks of life in general. :)

[Rosco Benson]

Alpha Sierra nailed it. I shoot skeet once a week. O/U shotguns with the actions open are rested on feet or placed the shoulder frequently. I don't find it distressing because the open action is discernable from a good distance and the gun is inert when the action is open.

I don't see it as differing much from a pistol shooter who, thinking he may have had a squib, unloads, locks the action open, and then peeks down the barrel to ensure it is clear. The muzzle is not Medusa. You won't turn to stone or die from looking at it. This is, of course, very dependent on some other safety measures being taken.

Frankly, I think none of these specific practices are as dangerous as having an AR dangling from a single point sling, pointing at one's feet or using an AIWB with a Glock.

Rosco

[JV_]

the open action is discernable from a good distance and the gun is inert when the action is open.It's only discernible when they're not walking away from you, where all you can see is the barrel.

[texasaggie2005]

It really is a sub-culture. In my area, an O/U is generally regarded as just a harmless steel pipe as long as it's action is open. If you leave the action closed, then people get picky and will either tell you to open the action or GTFO. Semi's are treated just like any other gun; 4 rules are paramount. As for the resting on the foot, nobody wants to rest their expensive O/U muzzle on the ground or concrete. Since the sport is 40% social status, a scratched O/U is unconscionable. Just my two cents. Fuds gonna fud.

[JV_]

I knew they were serious about fit and finish of their shotguns when the wooden rack that holds guns was covered in gray pipe insulation. There was no possibility it would touch something remotely hard.

[Rosco Benson]

It's only discernible when they're not walking away from you, where all you can see is the barrel.


Barrels should be to the front if you want to do this.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bestweekever.tv%2Fb we%2Fimages%2F2008%2F12%2Fpalinsmall.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vh1.com%2Fcelebrity%2F2 008-12-03%2F2009-calendars-to-look-forward-to%2F&h=225&w=300&tbnid=-6-JVLpiQKeJPM%3A&zoom=1&docid=UGXuI89yB393SM&ei=1WriU_wOzanIBIv-gKAP&tbm=isch&ved=0CEsQMyhDMEM4rAI&iact=rc&uact=3&dur=844&page=12&start=346&ndsp=31

Rosco

[JV_]

Barrel in front, got it.

Any other tidbits? I guess I should show up with my 686 rather than my 870...

[Rosco Benson]

I knew they were serious about fit and finish of their shotguns when the wooden rack that holds guns was covered in gray pipe insulation. There was no possibility it would touch something remotely hard.

If you're shooting a Perazzi that cost more than my first HOUSE, then I think it's okay to be a bit finnicky about unnecessary scrapes and scuffs.

My old SKB has its share of dings and dents and will likely acquire more. Your shotgun and your body can catch some clay bird fragments from high 7 or low 1.

Rosco

[JV_]

I got to hold a $70K Perazzi, I quickly gave it back when I found out the price.

[Rosco Benson]

Any other tidbits? I guess I should show up with my 686 rather than my 870...

An O/U is nice, especially for the second target on doubles. You'll need a fairly open choke. I've shot a few rounds with my Scattergun Tech 870 with pretty good results (and some odd looks!)

Keep your gun moving through the target, the break, and after. Most misses are caused by stopping the gun and/or not having enough of a lead.

Don't lift your head off the stock to see the cool break of the bird...or you won't.

Have fun and, remember, they all break when they hit the ground.

Rosco

[LSP972]

I'm not particularly interested in drive by posts, if you have something worthwhile to say then participate.



JV, his point 2) is spot-on. Its a different culture, different mind-set, different just about everything. I don't agree with much of it, but it is what it is and you WON'T change it. In fact, I quit shooting sporting clays because some of those guys are a bit too loose in this regard. Of the three disciplines, trap shooters tend to be more safety-conscious and less tolerant of horseplay/BS'ing around... probably because it is generally a much older crowd. That's one reason I enjoy trap more than the other two.


IOW, his advice re staying away if you're upset by this IS worthwhile. And I am staying out of this discussion for exactly his reasons. Mainly, from the outside looking in (if you haven't experienced it first-hand), it appears to be egregious and ill-mannered. It can be, but usually isn't.

.

[Rosco Benson]

I got to hold a $70K Perazzi, I quickly gave it back when I found out the price.

There are two Perazzis within the group of guys I shoot with. They are impressive and beautifully made. There's no way they're worth what they cost...at least not to me. SKB is out of the shotgun business now. I acquired mine (an 855) used. Funny, it is a nice shotgun but it doesn't really grab me like some combat firearms do. It is just a tool needed to play a really fun game...kind of like a tennis racket.

CZ is turning out some nice O/E shotguns at bargain prices. The Readhead looks and works really well at a bargain price.

Rosco

[Rosco Benson]

Of the three disciplines, trap shooters tend to be more safety-conscious and less tolerant of horseplay/BS'ing around... probably because it is generally a much older crowd. That's one reason I enjoy trap more than the other two.

I too have noticed that trap shooters seem like they're not having any fun. They act as if their wives MADE then go trap shoot. They stand in a line and shoot one after the other with no interaction.

Skeet offers ample opportunities to BS with the other guys, cheer impressive breaks, jeer misses (or hits that just produce a tiny chip), and just have a nice social interaction with like-minded folks.

Rosco

[JV_]

It is just a tool needed to play a really fun game...kind of like a tennis racket.That's how I feel about it too.


CZ is turning out some nice O/E shotguns at bargain prices. The Readhead looks and works really well at a bargain price.Noted. I'm not in the market, since I have a 686 and it was free, but I'll keep that in mind for future purchases.

Keep your gun moving through the target, the break, and after. Most misses are caused by stopping the gun and/or not having enough of a lead.

Don't lift your head off the stock to see the cool break of the bird...or you won't.
Got it, thanks.


I don't agree with much of it, but it is what it is and you WON'T change it.I just want to understand it a bit better. Some of the issues only impact them, like resting a gun on your toes. Other items impact everyone, like muzzle directions. If most of the issues are things that only impact them, I don't care all that much ... I won't follow their lead. A broken action, over the shoulder, with the muzzle pointed down (in front of you) is far different than having it pointed behind you.


In fact, I quit shooting sporting clays because some of those guys are a bit too loose in this regard. Of the three disciplines, trap shooters tend to be more safety-conscious and less tolerant of horseplay/BS'ing around... probably because it is generally a much older crowd. That's one reason I enjoy trap more than the other two.Interesting, thanks.


IOW, his advice re staying away if you're upset by this IS worthwhile.I'm not upset over it, just curious. I'm not setting out to unify all shooting disciplines on a common set of standards. Like I said before, it's just noteworthy that shot-gunners seem to be the odd man out, and their arguments for doing so simply don't fly in other disciplines.

[Rosco Benson]

JV,

Your Beretta 686 is a seriously nice shotgun. You should definately rock with that. I mentioned the CZ guns for the benefit of the other readers, as there is lots of love for the CZ pistols on this forum.

If you try skeet and get hooked on it, don't say I didn't warn you. It is incredibly fun. The people are different than, say, combat pistol shooters. I have the good fortune to shoot skeet with a group comprised primarily OF combat pistol shooters.

Rosco

[JV_]

In the carbine world, folks don't like the chicken-wing elbow and you're supposed to drop it down by your side. All of the good trap videos I've seen have their elbow straight out. Why the difference?

[Failure2Stop]

A lot of top rifle shooters shoot with a chicken wing. It's actually a better position, however, most contemporary carbine classes are focused on "gunfighting" :P where an exposed elbow can give a larger target or strike an obstacle during movement.

[texasaggie2005]

In the carbine world, folks don't like the chicken-wing elbow and you're supposed to drop it down by your side. All of the good trap videos I've seen have their elbow straight out. Why the difference?

I chicken-wing my shotgun simply because it's a more comfortable stance and grip. Putting my elbow down like I do with a carbine, puts my wrist at an odd angle and causes me to throw my shots.

[peterb]

My limited experience with trap & skeet is that an open fixed-breech gun is treated very differently than a semi or pump.

[Alpha Sierra]

In the carbine world, folks don't like the chicken-wing elbow and you're supposed to drop it down by your side. All of the good trap videos I've seen have their elbow straight out. Why the difference?
The dynamics of shooting a shotgun at a flying target are radically different than those of moving a carbine from one static target to another.

The radius of the grip of virtually all sporting shotguns makes it extremely uncomfortable to grip one like you would a typical AR.

[LSP972]

In the carbine world, folks don't like the chicken-wing elbow and you're supposed to drop it down by your side. All of the good trap videos I've seen have their elbow straight out. Why the difference?

Because you're "steering" the gun. Remember, in wing shooting you're not aiming, you're pointing… and keeping your focus on the bird, not the sights.

In American Trap, the bird is coming out of the machine anywhere within a 35 degree fan. On stations One and Five, a hard left or right (the bird is at the extreme end of the fan arc) means you really have to get the gun moving to pick up the bird before it starts to drop. Since you have no way of knowing which way its going to go, your hold point must be pretty close to where its going to first become visible; and you gotta be ready to move the gun left or right. While there are some guys who can get good breaks once the bird has reached the apex of its travel, such are few and far between. The better shooters will break the bird as soon as they see it (which is just about mandatory when shooting doubles; that is another whole ball game).

The closest you will ever see the bird is about 17 yards away from you, and its accelerating. I dunno if this has been covered, since I didn't read the whole thread, but in trap the best results are gained by "floating the bird"… IOW you keep it in sight, over your muzzle, at all times. Since its rising, a proper trap gun stock will be set up so the gun shoots to where you're looking- not to where its pointing. A POI 10-12 inches high at 30 yards is a good starting point, that can be fine tuned as you get a feel for the targets. This is why your basic hunting/skeet/sporting clays shotgun is not all that great for trap; and why you see those huge ribs 2-3 inches over the barrel.

Someone spoke of trap shooters not appearing to have fun and not interacting. BS. They're having fun; part of the allure of trap is to work together with the other four squad members to run a "smooth" line. That is, you're ready and call for your bird as soon as the fellow to your left has fired; having a shell catcher on your semi-auto or pump so you don't hit the fellow to your right with your hull; moving smartly to your next station when the call to "Rotate!" comes, getting set up on it, and being ready when the squad leader calls for his bird, etc.

If "interacting" means clowning/joking/cat-calling/etc., then no, that is not done on the line. But after the round is over… trust me, there's plenty of that to go around.

Here's the main difference between trap/skeet shooters and sporting clay shooters. Trap and skeet are long-established disciplines. The game hasn't changed much over the years- hardly at all, in fact- and everybody knows how to do it (applying the fundamentals and breaking the birds is another thing entirely :D ). Sporting clays has been called "golf with a shotgun"… because each course is different. I guess the best analogy, in pistol shooter terms, is this: trap and skeet are like conventional (bullseye) pistol… sporting clays is like IPSC/action shooting.

Roscoe is right; whichever game you choose, its addicting, challenging, and a lot of fun. It is also NOT for the cheapskate or frugal-minded. A full days' shooting at a trap meet- 300 birds, 300 shells, fees, etc., can run over $100 easy.

Your 686 and a few choke tubes will be perfect for skeet or sporting clays; my skeet/sporting clays gun is a Beretta 686 White Onyx. A proper trap gun isn't much good for anything else; I shot a 100-bird round of sporting clays once with the stack barrel set on my Beretta 682 Gold E trap gun, and it was… embarassing.

OTOH, some folks can do great at trap with a flat-shooting clays/skeet/hunting shotgun. But they have to work harder at it.

Anyway… sorry for the novella. But like any other game requiring hand/eye coordination and focus, there is a lot more to it than meets the eye initially.

.

.

[nycnoob]

I always assumed that the shotgun on the foot habit came from fencing (another "gentlemanly art"). The story told about fencing was that it was considered poor manners to let the tip touch the ground where it might get dirty and cause and infection.


I once did sporting clays. The culture seems to be more of a "cold range" mentality. The instructor did not seem to notice that I was following good muzzle discipline between stations all day. He just did not care. At one station I refused to shoot (the bird appeared to pass overhead and I was terrified I would have my own shot raining down on me) as we moved to the next station the instructor was visibly agitated that I had a hot gun, and he kept reminding me to watch where my muzzle was.

[ranger]

I started shooting competitively in USPSA then moved to Sporting Clays. Unfortunately, the clays clubs that I frequented were much more lax on muzzle orientation and other safety rules than a USPSA or IDPA match. I do not agree with it and even made some waves at my home club making an issue of muzzle sweeping. I did not get anything changed and got a rep as a troublemaker. I still like Sporting Clays and make on course safety comments on severe errors.

[JV_]

Anyway… sorry for the novella. But like any other game requiring hand/eye coordination and focus, there is a lot more to it than meets the eye initially.Thanks for taking the time to write all of that, it's given me a lot to mull over.

[JV_]

A lot of top rifle shooters shoot with a chicken wing. It's actually a better positionWhat makes it better? Is there some physical/skeletal/muscular alignment thing?

(I don't know squat about carbine shooting, and I know even less about shotgun stuff, it's not obvious to me)

[Jack Ryan]

That was my next question.

I have a new interest in trap and skeet, and I have a nice facility near me, but it sounds like I won't like the safety culture.Go there and learn.

Action open is the only safe shotgun.

If want to know about shotguns, go to the people who know shotguns.

Never close the shotgun unless you are on the line and ready to shoot. Load only one shell at a time on the trap range. NEVER turn away from the target range with the shotgun closed. Unless you are on the line and it's your turn to shoot, open the gun.

[Jack Ryan]

I always assumed that the shotgun on the foot habit came from fencing (another "gentlemanly art"). The story told about fencing was that it was considered poor manners to let the tip touch the ground where it might get dirty and cause and infection.


I once did sporting clays. The culture seems to be more of a "cold range" mentality. The instructor did not seem to notice that I was following good muzzle discipline between stations all day. He just did not care. At one station I refused to shoot (the bird appeared to pass overhead and I was terrified I would have my own shot raining down on me) as we moved to the next station the instructor was visibly agitated that I had a hot gun, and he kept reminding me to watch where my muzzle was.

He's called the instructor for a reason. He knows what he's talking about.

[Jack Ryan]

I was asking if it's common over there, and why it's acceptable. You've answered the former and not the latter.

I'm not looking for an answer that consists of: just accept it or move on. If that's all you have, I'd prefer you follow-through with your initial post and run mentality.

It's acceptable because it is perfectly safe and everyone for 50 yards can see a gun is broke open or it's not and therefore perfectly safe or potentially a danger.

[Jack Ryan]

Practically every other discipline uses the same set of gun safety rules, except for shotgunners. That's noteworthy.

You can't be shot if my finger isn't on the trigger of the DA gun, but we don't rely on that as our argument to violate the rules that everyone else has accepted as a standard.

You CAN be shot by a shotgun with out any one's finger on the trigger or anything else touching the trigger, in fact even if the safety is on.

Every other discipline is just that, every other discipline. Knowing one thing doesn't mean someone knows another. Do you really want to know about the shotgun sports or you just want an argument?

[Jack Ryan]

It's OK, you can stop posting in this thread - no problem.

Done.

[Failure2Stop]

What makes it better? Is there some physical/skeletal/muscular alignment thing?

(I don't know squat about carbine shooting, and I know even less about shotgun stuff, it's not obvious to me)
It creates a better pocket in the shoulder for the stock and makes lateral upper body movement more fluid. Sort of akin to the upper body pistol stance of most open shooters (not at all that it's only used there).

[MDS]

It creates a better pocket in the shoulder for the stock and makes lateral upper body movement more fluid. Sort of akin to the upper body pistol stance of most open shooters (not at all that it's only used there).
Interesting, so why is that true for some long guns but not others? In my ignorance I always thought it had more to do with the angle of the grip - The biomechanics of your wrist/elbow/shoulder dictating different optimal positions for the pistol grip on deer guns and shot guns vs the tactical grip like on ar's... Is there no truth to that?

[LSP972]

as we moved to the next station the instructor was visibly agitated that I had a hot gun, and he kept reminding me to watch where my muzzle was.

I'm surprised he allowed you to move with a loaded shotgun. The etiquette is, you stay unloaded/action open until you are standing at the shooting position; when ready for the birds, you load, call, shoot your two shots, unload (leaving the action open), and move off the station. Ditto skeet; you never load your gun until you are standing on the station ready to call for your bird(s).

Trap is a bit different, because you fire five shots, one at a time, in rotation, on each station. You can put another shell in your gun immediately after shooting each shot, but you DON'T close the action until its your turn again. This is okay because you're standing there, facing downrange, and not moving. After you have fired your five, of course, you keep the gun empty and open while everyone is shifting to the next station.

One must pay more attention to his muzzle discipline in skeet, because the squad is constantly moving around at each station, then moving to the next station as a group.

Sporting clays is where most of the "muzzling" issues occur, because there is even more movement involved (similar to skeet).

And to further muddy these waters, there's five-stand… which is sporting clays fired in a sort-of trap environment; that is, five stations close together, and the shooters rotate around the stations in turn.

.

[JV_]

Never close the shotgun unless you are on the line and ready to shoot. Load only one shell at a time on the trap range. NEVER turn away from the target range with the shotgun closed. Unless you are on the line and it's your turn to shoot, open the gun.Good tips.


It's acceptable because it is perfectly safe and everyone for 50 yards can see a gun is broke open or it's not and therefore perfectly safe or potentially a danger.I have not seen different muzzle habits/standards from those with semi-autos and those with o/u guns. One guy I saw was sitting on a stool behind the line, with his (I think) Remington 11-87. He had his hands folded over the muzzle and he was resting his chin on his hands. I think the action was open, but I'm not sure. In this case, the only person at risk is him, so I didn't care much.


Do you really want to know about the shotgun sports or you just want an argument?I'm looking for a convincing argument why it's OK for one discipline to be a significant outlier, I remain unconvinced, but that's fine with me. Some of the etiquette folks are describing is not what I'm seeing practiced, but that could be a local issue, or a public vs. private range issue. I don't go to non-RSO'd public ranges for pistol and rifle, it's possible I just need a similar filter here too.

[JV_]

Very informative posts LSP, I'm appreciative of the detail you've included.

[JV_]

I just found an interesting tidbit on the toe question, in the ATA and SCTP rulebooks.

http://www.shootata.com/Portals/0/pdf/ata_rulebook_web.pdf

18. While not prohibited, the practice of resting the muzzle of a shotgun on
a shooter’s toe is ill-advised and is discouraged.

http://sssfonline.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/SCTP_Handbook.pdf

C. Special SCTP Safety Rules for All Disciplines
1. Toe Pads: The use of toe pads is forbidden. It is a violation to rest the muzzle on the foot. Violation of this rule
may be grounds for disqualification.

[LSP972]

Trap shooters are the only folks I've ever seen using toe pads. Heck, I use one when shooting doubles, because my doubles barrel set is 30" long, and heavier (on an already heavy gun). I shoot a 34" top-single barrel for singles and handicap, and rest it on the ground with a magnetic pad. This has a muzzle-diameter magnetic circle that "grabs" the muzzle for moving with the gun, but has a larger foam padded area to rest the muzzle on when standing on station.

Back to the safety concerns issue; keep an eye out for guys with an orange sticker on their trigger guard or stock that says "Release Trigger". This is exactly what it sounds like; the sear is tripped when the trigger has been pulled and then let go. The theory is that it helps cure flinching; but the problems with it are only too easy to visualize. At the state championship one year, I was squadded next to a guy from Texas who shot the trap house; twice. You would think that is an immediate DQ; nope. Again, the different mind-set mentioned previously is in play here.

That said, practically all of the people I've seen with a release trigger understand it and are safe with it. But there's always that 10%. The good news is, you rarely see these things anywhere but on a trap line. I don't recall ever seeing one on the skeet or clays field.

JV, give the game a chance. The only real issues I've ever experienced were with bubbas out for a day of sport; the serious shooters/competitors are generally not the ones you need to be concerned about. Look at it like a trip to a public rifle/pistol range; you KNOW there is going to be one or two retards who have no business handling machinery. IOW, enjoy yourself, but stay alert.

.

P.S. : By "trap house", I mean the structure that covers the trap machine in front of the shooting stations.

[JV_]

The theory is that it helps cure flinching; but the problems with it are only too easy to visualize. At the state championship one year, I was squadded next to a guy from Texas who shot the trap house; twice. You would think that is an immediate DQ; nope. Again, the different mind-set mentioned previously is in play here.I had no idea that even existed, thanks.

JV, give the game a chance. Will do. I'm bored with pistol shooting and haven't done much in 6 months. Trap has me newly interested in shooting again, which is a good thing. The downside is it's more seasonal than pistol shooting because of my access to the indoor ranges, but the forced breaks may be a good thing too.

[LSP972]

If trap is your area of interest, I promise you will do better at it if you raise the comb on your 686 so you can shoot high and float the birds.

This can be as simple as building the comb up with moleskin (not advisable if you have an oil-finished stock- it will discolor the wood eventually) or buying an add-on device. No recommendations there, I've never tried one, but there are several commercial offerings to be had. If you haven't already, get on ShotgunWorld Forum, find a guy- user name maltzhan- and ask him directly. He is a treasure trove of good info re trap shooting.


And don't let anyone tell you that your 686 barrels are too short. The whole idea behind long barrels on trap guns is to stabilize one's swing, etc. I started the game with a Beretta 3901 youth gas gun, because the short stock fit my T-Rex arms perfectly. It has a 26.5" barrel. I still use it on doubles occasionally, and bust as many birds with it as I do with that multi-grand-costing 682 Gold E. Breaking birds consistently is all about you, gun fit, and your pattern consistency.

Speaking of the latter, lots of opinions on the best choke. A "quick" shooter (one who pops the bird as soon as it clears the house) can get away with a modified choke. While old-timers scoff at that- the object being to "smoke" or powder the bird, in their mind- in MY mind a loose break is as good as the classic "inkball". The slightly more open choke gives you a bit of wiggle room if you're not exactly on the bird when you shoot... but always keep in mind that the bird is constantly increasing the distance between you and it. You can quickly let it get beyond the reach of a looser choke. This is one of those aspects that you gotta experiment with.

I use a modified choke in the lower (first shot) barrel of my doubles set-up, IM in the upper barrel. Best all-around choke for singles and short-range Handicap (21 yards and closer) IMO is Improved Modified. And #8 shot for singles and close Handicap. I like to use 7.5s for my second doubles shot, because by the time to get on that puppy it is OUT there, and the larger pellet gives more chance of making a chip/break/etc. at that distance.

On shells... you don't need rhino-rollers until you get "back to the fence" (25-27 yard line at Handicap; trust me, it will be a while before you face this, unless you're playing the Scrap game). Your basic one ounce of shot/ 3DE (three dram equivalent- enough smokeless powder to equal three drams of black powder) "field load" is perfectly adequate. It seems that most of these economy offerings these days are coming with 1 1/8 oz of shot and 3.25 DE of powder. Doesn't sound like much more, but over a 300-shell day you'll definitely tell the difference in more recoil.


Not trying to overload you here, just touching on some high points. I'll back off now, but if you have any questions, etc....

.

[JDM]

I can't remember having more fun with a gun than the times I've shot clays (or trap, or skeet, or whatever). It's great fun.

I'd like to participate in an actual match, although I'm not to sure how competitive I'd be with an 18" Benelli M1.

[JV_]

I'd like to participate in an actual matchThat's what sparked my interest. I hadn't shot trap in 13 years, it wasn't even serious back then, and I grabbed a gun and shot a informal match with about 20 others.

[Alpha Sierra]

I can't remember having more fun with a gun than the times I've shot clays (or trap, or skeet, or whatever). It's great fun.

I'd like to participate in an actual match, although I'm not to sure how competitive I'd be with an 18" Benelli M1.

The shorter barrel makes it slightly easier to slow or stop your swing which will do your score no favors. Having said that, if you really concentrate on pointing and following through your swing (vice aiming and stopping the gun), the gun itself should be no handicap.

I'm assuming your Benelli has interchangeable chokes? If not, shots over 30 yards will be more challenging than they need to be.

[JDM]

The shorter barrel makes it slightly easier to slow or stop your swing which will do your score no favors. Having said that, if you really concentrate on pointing and following through your swing (vice aiming and stopping the gun), the gun itself should be no handicap.

I'm assuming your Benelli has interchangeable chokes? If not, shots over 30 yards will be more challenging than they need to be.

It does have interchangeable chokes. What would you recommend I use?

[Alpha Sierra]

It does have interchangeable chokes. What would you recommend I use? Improved Cylinder for 0-30 yards, modified for beyond. KISS for now.

[JDM]

Thanks!

[LSP972]

I'd like to participate in an actual match, although I'm not to sure how competitive I'd be with an 18" Benelli M1.

Here's a clue... showing up at a registered shoot with that would garner you the same sort of looks you would get if you showed up at a USPSA event with a Hi-Point.

Just sayin'...:D

.

[JV_]

Not trying to overload you here, just touching on some high points. I'll back off now, but if you have any questions, etc....
I'll have to bookmark this and come back. Drinking from a firehose and all that....

Thanks for all of your time.

[Jack Ryan]

Good tips.

I have not seen different muzzle habits/standards from those with semi-autos and those with o/u guns. One guy I saw was sitting on a stool behind the line, with his (I think) Remington 11-87. He had his hands folded over the muzzle and he was resting his chin on his hands. I think the action was open, but I'm not sure. In this case, the only person at risk is him, so I didn't care much.

I'm looking for a convincing argument why it's OK for one discipline to be a significant outlier, I remain unconvinced, but that's fine with me. Some of the etiquette folks are describing is not what I'm seeing practiced, but that could be a local issue, or a public vs. private range issue. I don't go to non-RSO'd public ranges for pistol and rifle, it's possible I just need a similar filter here too.

Not all and not EVERY WHERE is the same, but the BEST are.

You'll never have a problem at any trap range following my suggestions or THE ONES OF THE GUYS HERE YOU ARE LOOKING TO ARGUE WITH.

If you want to learn and enjoy the clays sports, take the advice, start going to clubs, and LEARN. When you want to start up on someone you see at the shot gun club, stop and think about WHY you are there and remember God gave you two eyes, two ears, and only one mouth for a good reason. Use it to ask questions. I've never met any one at any kind of shooting event who wasn't interested in HELPING new people who want to learn.

Same time, I never met any one at a trap club who knows where to stand and when to move that came there that day to be preached to by a guy who read about it on the internet. It's like a guy going golfing by his self in his jeans, sandals, and AC/DC shirt walking on the middle of the course and just sitting down with 4 guys who play together every week and start reciting everything he read in wiki about golf the evening before.

[LSP972]

I'll have to bookmark this and come back. Drinking from a firehose and all that....

Thanks for all of your time.

My pleasure. In fact, my trap gun hasn't seen the light of day in over a year; been too busy playing with pistols. Just last week I was thinking "Time to get back into the game."

This thread pushed me over that edge. So, thank YOU.

.

[JV_]

THE ONES OF THE GUYS HERE YOU ARE LOOKING TO ARGUE WITH.I'm not looking to argue with anyone, but a discussion would be nice, which means don't come by and post an opinion and they say: I'm out. It's a back and forth, like a discussion. It's also not helpful to start with things like: If you can't accept the culture, don't go. I'm just looking to understand some of the why.

This detour is over. If you have something more that needs to be said about my motives, then use PM.

[JV_]

Other than choke differences, is there a reason to use the top or bottom barrel first?

[Alpha Sierra]

Other than choke differences, is there a reason to use the top or bottom barrel first?

In theory, firing the bottom barrel first leads to less muzzle flip and faster recovery for the second shot since the bottom barrel is more directly in line with the shoulder.

Typically, because the first shot is usually a closer one, most shooters install a more open choke on the bottom. When you get to a station (in sporting clays) where the first shot is farther away, just use the barrel selector to fire the barrel with the tighter choke first.

[JV_]

In theory, firing the bottom barrel first leads to less muzzle flip
Is that gun dependent, like on the specialized guns with the tall ribs, or for guns like my 686 too?

[LSP972]

Is that gun dependent, like on the specialized guns with the tall ribs, or for guns like my 686 too?

It applies to your 686 as well.

Although, truth be told, when using standard loads I don't know that one would even notice it.

My trap gun has a top-single barrel; IOW, when using that, I have the selector set to fire the upper firing pin first. When switching to the over/under barrel set for doubles, I need to change that to the lower firing pin first, via the safety/selector.

On more than one occasion, I have neglected to do it; and my first clue was when I was smashing the first bird (with the top barrel load of extra-punch #7.5s) and barely chipping or completely missing the second bird (with the lower barrel load of lighter #8s). I did NOT notice any difference in recoil.

So... in theory, it makes a difference. In MY reality... not so much. YMMV.

.

[idahojess]

Here's a good video on carrying/handling over-unders and other shotguns I always try to follow.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4zPrd-uKxc

I like the break-opens because they are easier to carry safely and show clear. One of the places I bird hunt is army Corps of Engineers Land that has a lot of mixed users. Carrying a semi-auto or pump muzzle-up over a hunt can be pretty taxing on the arms.

[LOKNLOD]

I can't remember having more fun with a gun than the times I've shot clays (or trap, or skeet, or whatever). It's great fun.

I'd like to participate in an actual match, although I'm not to sure how competitive I'd be with an 18" Benelli M1.

I've shot sporting clays a total of two times now, at semi-annual fundraiser through work. It is super fun, even though I'm still getting the hang of it. First time Ever I was right at 50/100 using my dad's nice 870 Wingmaster. This spring I shot 74 using my 21" beretta 1301 comp. I don't think the shotgun was the limiting factor by any means :p.

[GJM]

Different but similar -- bird hunting with a dog (especially your dog). I always wanted other shooters accompanying me and MY Vizsla to have a side by side or over under. And, until ready to shoot, I wanted the action open. I get rule 2, but regardless of intentions, muzzles do cover things, especially when moving through a hunting field with a dog running around. When the side by or over under is open, my dog will not get shot. Once the action closes, then I focused on barrel direction, but that would be for a much shorter time.

Carrying long guns around here for defense, I also want the chamber empty until a threat is imminent. That makes something like a Guide Gun attractive, because you can go from an empty chamber to a loaded chamber in the time it takes to shoulder the lever gun. Same for the pump gun or semi-auto with an extended bolt handle. Climbing in and out of a boat or float plane, thrutching through thick brush, the last thing I want is a loaded chamber near me. Would rather take my chances with the bear.

[JAD]

Agreed. What other subsets have more relaxed safety standards? Pistol, carbine and long range/benchrest all seem to be on a somewhat level playing field.
I do most of my shooting on a benchrest range, which is in many ways the coldest of the shooting sports; the bolt is out if they're not behind the scope.

They sweep like /mofos/, and I cannot see that the bolt is out when they're 10 yards away. The action sports and defensive practicioners are vastly more safety focused than any other sport I've been around.

That said, I really enjoy the clay sports, and have an excellent facility close by. I have some travel to do but when I get back I'm going to trade in a Glock on a sporting clays gun; thanks for reminding me.

[LittleLebowski]

This is a fascinating thread.....Carry on.

[Jared]

I do most of my shooting on a benchrest range, which is in many ways the coldest of the shooting sports; the bolt is out if they're not behind the scope.

They sweep like /mofos/, and I cannot see that the bolt is out when they're 10 yards away. The action sports and defensive practicioners are vastly more safety focused than any other sport I've been around.

That said, I really enjoy the clay sports, and have an excellent facility close by. I have some travel to do but when I get back I'm going to trade in a Glock on a sporting clays gun; thanks for reminding me.

As someone that's done the clay games, then benchrest, then USPSA, I agree with this.

I remember when I first got into benchrest, I saw one of those belt hangers that you put your rifle bolt in when you aren't on the line. Seemed quite odd to me, until I actually observed people shooting those rifles and the way they were handled behind the line.

One thing I do think about the clay games is that a lot of the varied ways people rest their Over/Unders is because a lot of those target shotguns are heavy. Arms get tired over a round of trap or skeet, and shotguns get rested on toes or over shoulders. With a Semi Auto on a skeet field, I used to put my right forearm parallel to the ground, place the butt in my palm, and the muzzle was up. But with a break action gun, and the "action open" rules, that would have had the muzzle aimed behind me. So when I shot a O/U on a skeet or sporting clays course, I kept the muzzles pointed down at the ground in front of me. I also always found that a round of trap went by fast enough that my arms didn't tire so badly if I simply rested the action on my forearm, but I was 19 at the time.

I should also note that the place where I shot trap was rather conscious overall of muzzle discipline, at least as far as the serious competitors were concerned. When the bubba's showed up, that changed noticeably.

[JAD]

because a lot of those target shotguns are heavy. .

Would it be inappropriate to use a sling?

[GJM]

Would it be inappropriate to use a sling?

I have never seen slings on bird hunting shotguns in the bird field or in sporting clays. Lots to get tangled up with in the field, and nothing that would help your sporting clays shooting.

[LSP972]

One thing I do think about the clay games is that a lot of the varied ways people rest their Over/Unders is because a lot of those target shotguns are heavy. Arms get tired over a round of trap or skeet, and shotguns get rested on toes or over shoulders.

Indeed; exactly so.

.

[Jared]

Would it be inappropriate to use a sling?

I've never seen a target shotgun that was equipped with sling studs. Lots of field shotguns don't have them either.

FWIW, some of the worst muzzle discipline I've ever seen involved improper sling technique and bolt action hunting rifles flopping around uncontrollably.

[LSP972]

I have never seen slings on bird hunting shotguns in the bird field or in sporting clays. Lots to get tangled up with in the field, and nothing that would help your sporting clays shooting.

Quite true.

The current rage is a "gun buggy"; one of those elongated three-wheeled baby carriages like yuppies use to run while pushing their offspring along with them. You can buy them with padded racks to hold three or four shotguns muzzle-depressed. While mainly a sporting clays thing, I've seen trap shooters use them at big events where the fields are far apart (or there are a bunch of them, like in Sparta and that huge trap complex north of Cincinatti).

Slings are… not done, except for the guys who come out once or twice a year with their hunting shotguns.

.

[Jared]

Quite true.

The current rage is a "gun buggy"; one of those elongated three-wheeled baby carriages like yuppies use to run while pushing their offspring along with them. You can buy them with padded racks to hold three or four shotguns muzzle-depressed. While mainly a sporting clays thing, I've seen trap shooters use them at big events where the fields are far apart (or there are a bunch of them, like in Sparta and that huge trap complex north of Cincinatti).

Slings are… not done, except for the guys who come out once or twice a year with their hunting shotguns.

.

Sparta's trap line is a sight to see. 3 miles plus long. I'd definitely want a gun buggy for that.

[Alpha Sierra]

Anything but the most ghetto sporting clays course will have plenty of gun racks at every shooting station. No need to hold your gun up. Now skeet and trap, yeah, you'll be holding it for the duration of the round, except maybe at skeet 1 and 7, when you'll be right next to either of the trap houses and there is usually a gun rack next to you.

The other sport with relatively different gun handling protocols is NRA Highpower. There is nothing unusual at all to see rifles on horizontal racks on gun carts. So long as the ECI (empty chamber indicator, which must actually penetrate into the chamber) is visible, no one gets excited.

Different sports have different rules and different customs. The clay sports are by their nature social, you need to be in a squad to shoot unless you luck out to find one of the very few places with voice releases for skeet or SC traps (though they are common in trap). It's best to not rock the boat too hard lest you find yourself with no one to shoot with.

[Alpha Sierra]

.....that huge trap complex north of Cincinatti
It's gone. To be turned into airport parking lots. The asshat libtard Dayton mayor from a few years back (Rhin McLinn) drove the Amateur Trap Association and it's Grand American trap championship out of Dayton/Vandalia.

Illinois received them both with open arms at Sparta.

I hate this place.

[TGS]

Different but similar -- bird hunting with a dog (especially your dog). I always wanted other shooters accompanying me and MY Vizsla to have a side by side or over under. And, until ready to shoot, I wanted the action open. I get rule 2, but regardless of intentions, muzzles do cover things, especially when moving through a hunting field with a dog running around. When the side by or over under is open, my dog will not get shot. Once the action closes, then I focused on barrel direction, but that would be for a much shorter time.



Ditto.

I learned to hunt using single shot break actions, and did most of my quail and pheasant hunting with a Browning BSS 20ga. We did the same thing....actions open with shells inserted until the dog pointed. At the moment of flush, we would cock the hammer.

[LSP972]

It's gone. To be turned into airport parking lots. The asshat libtard Dayton mayor from a few years back (Rhin McLinn) drove the Amateur Trap Association and it's Grand American trap championship out of Dayton/Vandalia.

Illinois received them both with open arms at Sparta.

I hate this place.

The one I'm thinking of is the Cardinal Shooting Center, just north of Columbus (which is north of Cincinatti :o ). As I recall, its out in the middle of nowhere (although you can throw a rock from I-71 and hit it); no big airport around that I remember. Its been a few years since I was there, however.

.

[Alpha Sierra]

The one I'm thinking of is the Cardinal Shooting Center, just north of Columbus (which is north of Cincinatti :o ). As I recall, its out in the middle of nowhere (although you can throw a rock from I-71 and hit it); no big airport around that I remember. Its been a few years since I was there, however.

.
Oh, yeah. Cardinal is still there and still world class. One of the very best sporting clays courses in Ohio, right up there with Hill n Dale and Mad River. The trap lines are awesome too and they also have bunker trap (which I must try one of these days).

[Jack Ryan]

I'm not looking to argue with anyone, but a discussion would be nice, which means don't come by and post an opinion and they say: I'm out. It's a back and forth, like a discussion. It's also not helpful to start with things like: If you can't accept the culture, don't go. I'm just looking to understand some of the why.

This detour is over. If you have something more that needs to be said about my motives, then use PM.

OK.
People rest the shotgun barrel on their toe because 1. the frigg'n thing get's heavy. Especially by the time you've shot a hundred or more. 2. you spend more time on the line waiting on the other 4 guys to shoot than you do shooting. 3. because they don't want the end beat up on concrete or stuck in the grass. 4. because it's perfectly safe. You only load one shell at a time and it's shot by the time it's on their toe. If it's not shot the action is still open until the person 2nd to the left of them shoots. Then they will lift their gun and close the chamber when the person to their left shoots. That's when the gun is dangerous and it is when they will put the gun to their shoulder and call for a bird after the guy to their left shoots. If it's a break action they will open it and MIGHT set it on their toe as they are looking directly at the open chamber. If it's a semi auto the bolt will lock open on it's own.

That's WHY.

Tell me. Show me. Let me try. ( now is where questions fit in) Repeat as required.

That's my only teaching / learning guide. You've seen it, read/told it, now go try a hundred birds and you'll understand why.

Tell me and I'll forget.
Show me and I'll remember.
Let me try and I'll understand.

The Navy can teach even a simple small town boy to run a nuclear reactor with those few simple principles. It's always been my mantra to sharing information and skills from teaching my kids with homework to training Millwright apprentices and Powerhouse apprentices and providing safety training to all trades to teaching any thing I've ever had to so far. I believe I can teach just about anybody anything with those three rules. Four if you count the repeat as required.

Telling sets the student up enough to have a sense of what they are going to see and what to watch for.
Seeing it elicits the light bulb, "So that's what you meant moment" that seals it in memory.
Trying to imitate what they saw let's them learn what they missed, forgot, or didn't understand enough to know they needed to watch for it.

All three have to be there. Take away anyone and it is near impossible to really learn. They can't all be shared through the internet form of media.

[Kyle Reese]

Shot trap & skeet on Saturday AM with my father and two uncles at a small rural club. We got there right as it opened, and were the first folks there for a little while (which was surprising), so we got to shoot two rounds of trap before other people started rolling in. My dad was shooting his Beretta A400, one uncle a 1979 Remington 1100 12 Ga and the other an old beater Remington 870 Express in 20 gauge. I shot my 1993 Remington 870 Express with Magpul furniture and Skeet II choke.

Of all of us, my uncle with the old 20 gauge 870 broke 25/25 on trap.

Trying my hand at skeet, one of the RO's present walked us thru the stages, giving me some good nuggets of wisdom to mull over and I even had a few lightbulb moments. I appreciated the fact that the gentleman could articulate the why instead of just "do it this way".

I thoroughly enjoyed it and will be back to learn more.

[theJanitor]

I don't think I've had as much fun behind a trigger than shooting skeet or trap.

[GJM]

I don't think I've had as much fun behind a trigger than shooting skeet or trap.

you should try turkey hunting, and if that gets old, lion and leopard.

[Lon]

It's gone. To be turned into airport parking lots. The asshat libtard Dayton mayor from a few years back (Rhin McLinn) drove the Amateur Trap Association and it's Grand American trap championship out of Dayton/Vandalia.

Illinois received them both with open arms at Sparta.

I hate this place.

I spent a few summers working for my brother in law at his satellite shop at the ATA grounds. Used to go to the Perazzi building and drool. Never forget the 4 gun matched set (28,410,20,12ga) they had in the case for $300K. Beautiful. And the Bob Allen girls (think SHOT booth babes). Lotsa fun.

[MSparks909]

you should try turkey hunting, and if that gets old, lion and leopard.

I'd argue that waterfowl hunting is much more exciting than turkey hunting! I hunt winged creatures from the beginning of September to the end of January. I'll be shooting a round of 5 stand and sporting clays this weekend to stay "fresh" for the upcoming early season teal, dove and goose opener in 3 weeks.

[Crow Hunter]

I'd argue that waterfowl hunting is much more exciting than turkey hunting! I hunt winged creatures from the beginning of September to the end of January. I'll be shooting a round of 5 stand and sporting clays this weekend to stay "fresh" for the upcoming early season teal, dove and goose opener in 3 weeks.

You should try crow hunting. ;)

To GJMs point, it is my policy when hunting that shotguns are chamber empty when moving from stand to stand, period. That includes myself, family and guests. It is too easy to have something "reach out and grab" you when walking through the woods and make you drop a shotgun. I am not comfortable that all shotguns are drop safe and if we miss a bird because no one has a loaded gun, so what.

It is easy with the Benelli I use most of the time and the old Stevens 311 that I use some of the time. This is one of the reasons I like Benelli or doubles for hunting versus some of the other guns that rely on magazine cut offs. The Benelli is much faster to get back into action than my brothers Maxxus when you forget to reload after moving. :rolleyes:

It is a pain in the rear when I use my Dad's old BPS every once in a while. (No magazine cut off)

I am also a serious stickler when it comes to where the muzzle is pointed. It is either up or down when walking and when we setup in the blind, you have your arc of fire and I have mine.

I only shoot informal skeet with small hand loaded thrower with friends. If you aren't the one shooting your gun is not in your hands.

I think I would probably have problems like JV on a skeet range.