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TCinVA
07-11-2011, 08:35 AM
It's easy for those of us who have been doing this firearms thing for a while to assume that some bits of knowledge are common to anyone handling/using/collecting firearms, but often what we think is common knowledge is completely new information to many. I've encountered it enough that I think it might be worthwhile to have a thread or a resource where we can collect these bits of knowledge for general consumption. So with that in mind, I'd like to solicit the assistance of the forum in creating some sort of index of these important bits of knowledge that might not be as "common" as we think.

Naturally I'll get the ball rolling. The goal here is to come up with the useful tidbits and refinements to the presentation so that in the end we have something fairly concise and easy to read that will communicate some of these informational nuggets effectively.


Re-chambering rounds:

The act of chambering a cartridge in a semi-automatic or automatic firearm is fairly violent and can have significant impact on the health of the cartridge that is being stripped from the magazine and slammed into the chamber of the weapon. Repeated exposure to this violent process can lead to severe safety and reliability issues. One of the largest concerns is bullet setback. Ordinarily when the primer is struck, the powder in the case burns in a consistent fashion to build the gas pressure that pushes the bullet out of the case and through the barrel. A cartridge that is cycled into the chamber multiple times can actually push the bullet itself further into the case creating enough compression to turn the controlled burn into a detonation. This is, obviously, not good for the health of the firearm or the person shooting it. Further, the act of repeatedly chambering a round has been known to damage other components of the cartridge like the case or the primer that can lead to malfunctions, stuck cases, or dead primers.

How many times a particular cartridge can be chambered without damage depends on a lot of factors including the weapon used, the type of crimp used when loading the bullet into the cartridge case, the quality of the components used in the manufacture of the cartridge, etc. As a result many rules of thumb have evolved over the years to deal with this problem. Since we're dealing in generalities, I prefer the rule that handgun rounds should never be chambered more than twice. After they've been ejected from the chamber for the second time they should be deposited in a dedicated container for training ammo that is used up at the range. With most carry/duty quality self defense ammunition in most handguns (note the use of the word MOST...always inspect your ammunition) this rule will ensure that setback and other damage to the cartridge never rises to the level of causing a problem.


Do you really need to unload the firearm?

For the most part, when a weapon you intend to carry or use in the home defense role is loaded, it makes the most sense to simply leave it alone. Unless you are forced by some administrative regulation to constantly load and unload your weapon, stick to leaving it loaded unless you have a compelling need for an unloaded weapon like cleaning or dedicated dryfire practice. I've encountered lots of people over the years that seem to think they have to clear the chamber of their weapon every time they go off duty or go to bed at night. That practice makes no real sense for most. If you abide by the rule of chambering a particular cartridge no more than twice, you can see that constantly clearing and then reloading the weapon will get expensive. While I don't have empirical data to back this up, there does seem to be some anecdotal evidence that constantly loading and unloading the weapon leads to more potential confusion about the status of a weapon when you pick it up...which has led to tragic consequences. (I didn't think there was one in the chamber!) Obviously every time you pick up a weapon you should do a standard check of the ammunition source and the chamber to ensure the weapon is in the condition you expect it to be in before handling it.

JM Campbell
07-11-2011, 08:46 AM
Outstanding post sir!

Consistent dry fire routine with a "Safe Zone" and Verbal commands ie at end/beginning of session verbally acknowledging that the firearm is loaded/unloaded. I don't know who to credit that but read that here and have made it part of my practice.

TCinVA
07-11-2011, 08:50 AM
Sight picture:

Different manufacturers of firearms and sights usually have one of three different sight pictures -

83

Image borrowed from hunt101.com

Number 1 is known as the "6:00 hold" where you place the tip of the front sight under the spot you intend to hit.

Number 2 is known by many names, but often it's referred to as the "standard" or "combat" sight picture where the tip of the front sight is placed on the spot you intend to hit.

Number 3 is frequently referred to as "driving the dot", meaning that the dot on the front sight should be placed on the spot you intend to hit.

When you're attempting to shoot with precision in bullseye or on very small targets (like a 2" circle or a 1" square...or a bad guy's ocular window) knowing how your sights are set up can make the difference between a hit and a miss. Also note that using different bullet weights can change the required sight picture as well.

Note to the forum: I'd like to get a list of sights, factory and aftermarket, and tack it on here so that if someone goes out and purchases a handgun or a set of sights they'll know what the manufacturer's sight picture is intended to be. Example:

H&K P30 - stock factory sights use #3, a "drive the dot" sight picture.
Glock - stock factory sights use #2. Taller aftermarket sights installed on a Glock like Warren Tactical may require #1 with some types of ammunition.

Etc.

Pistol Shooter
07-11-2011, 08:58 AM
The Four Rules Of Firearm Safety

1. All guns are always loaded.

2. Never point the gun at anything you are not willing to destroy.

3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on target (and you have made the decision to shoot).

4. Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.

Kyle Reese
07-11-2011, 09:07 AM
Lubrication:

An often misunderstood, maligned or ignored concept. As firearms are complex mechanical devices, they all require a modicum of lubrication. Manually operated firearms may require less than semi or fully automatic arms, and we often hear people express delight that they are utilizing _______ pistol, sans lubrication.

This is not a good idea. Metal on metal contact, especially when heat is involved, requires lube to keep said mechanical device operating at peak efficiency. This is especially true of the AR system. How many times have we witnessed someone experiencing stoppages with their AR type weapon and an application of brand ________ lube remedied the problem? I know I have.

As a general rule, people have the tendency to over lubricate pistols and under lubricate carbines. Glocks and other modern service pistols are sufficiently lubricated with just a few drops of ______, or dabs of _____ grease (slide glide comes to mind). I've witnessed people lubing the striker channel of a Glock as well as ammunition. While lube is good, lets not go nuts. When in doubt, consult the manufacturer or your owners manual.

Additionally, any lubricant is better than no lubricant. We all have our pet brands/types, but if CLP is all that's available at a given moment in time, it's better than running a gun bone dry. Also, don't be afraid to apply and reapply lube as needed. Weapons get hot under use, and lube burns off. I've been known to run my carbines wet and dirty at carbine classes/training, and experienced fewer issues than guys insisting on running them either dry or very lightly lubed.

Lube is your friend. :)

JDM
07-11-2011, 10:02 AM
Use a holster.

A good holster is to a pistol as tires are to a car. Even if the gun isn't going to be carried, a serviceable holster is an absolute must.

Stay away from flimsy nylon "pancake" designs, and from cheaply produced leather holsters. Stay away from "clip on" designs as well. Further, the words 'retention' and 'paddle holster' should never appear together. You can have one or the other, but not both.


Avoid the Blackhawk! SERPA like the AIDS.


Naturally you won't want to wait weeks or months for a decent holster from a custom manufacturer, so look at companies like Safariland. Proven high quality and safe, by thousands upon thousands of law enforcement officers.

Example: http://www.copquest.com/23-2570.htm


This will do exactly what it needs to, it's affordable, and safe.

irishshooter
07-11-2011, 10:27 AM
If you are going to carry a gun for defensive purposes get PROFESSIONAL training.

Also as a beginner, before you decide that the reason that your gun is "off" and you start messing around with sights and modifications have someone that knows how to shoot give it a go.......more often than not it is the newness to shooting that is causing the gun to be "off" not the gun.

NickA
07-11-2011, 11:29 AM
If you are going to carry a gun for defensive purposes get PROFESSIONAL training
+1. And when you do, don't worry about trying to be the best shooter in the class. Strive to be the best STUDENT.
Also be properly prepared for the class- know what's expected of you and have your gear squared away.

jetfire
07-11-2011, 12:00 PM
This may seem odd, but for newbies who just got their carry permit: have a plan for dealing with public restrooms when you're carrying. Try to use the can at home first to figure out what works and what doesn't before you're at a restaurant and have to suddenly figure out what to do with your carry gun while you use the facilities. And for the love of god, don't be that guy who leaves his carry gun sitting on the toilet tank.

rsa-otc
07-11-2011, 12:05 PM
This may seem odd, but for newbies who just got their carry permit: have a plan for dealing with public restrooms when you're carrying. Try to use the can at home first to figure out what works and what doesn't before you're at a restaurant and have to suddenly figure out what to do with your carry gun while you use the facilities. And for the love of god, don't be that guy who leaves his carry gun sitting on the toilet tank.

I've been covering that for years in my company's firearms program. People alway look at me like I have 2 heads when I start that module. Once I'm done they are like "YA that was useful".

irishshooter
07-11-2011, 12:07 PM
+1. And when you do, don't worry about trying to be the best shooter in the class. Strive to be the best STUDENT.


excellent point. Learn, dont compete.

JodyH
07-11-2011, 03:06 PM
Don't pick rounds up off the ground and load them up in your magazines.
It's a good way to end up with a Bubba nuclear load, or a .40 in a .45. Either of which can be catastrophic to your gun, eyes and fingers.

double-Tapatalk

virginiatactical
07-11-2011, 03:37 PM
When attending a training course be wary of taking what instructors say as gospel. Avoid instructors that say " this is the only way" (though there are a few staples) or "the best way for everyone is". Understand that we are indeed not created equal, and we have different biological factors that contribute to our shooting techniques. Some of us might have a cross eye dominant factor or a frame that doesn't allow us to carry a 5 inch gun as easily as other body types. If something is legitimately not working for you let an instructor know and hopefully he is armed with other techniques that can solve your issue. If the instructor is trying to explain something to you keep an open mind and do your best to understand what he/she is saying.

At the end of the course, take what best works for you and don't hold a grudge against things that do not work for you. Everything you learn should be another potential arrow that you can put in your quiver. Just be wary of really shitty made arrows.

Al T.
07-11-2011, 04:16 PM
Ditto for the dropped or range found ammo.

Also, diesel may be cheaper than gasoline, but odds are your ride won't like it. Ammo is the same way - gun show reloads tend to be a false economy. Decent training ammo is not much more expensive, but miles ahead in quality.

Always inspect your ammo before loading. Every round.

Pay attention to your firearm. The sound and feel will almost always tell you if it's had a malfunction. Fix that malfunction ASAP, don't stare at it.

Get dummy rounds for dry firing and malfunction drills.

Don't marry your magazines. If a malfunction occurs, note it and the exact magazine. I only let a magazine bite me twice, it then meets the hammer and trash can.

Get multiple magazines. IMHO, ten per weapon is a good start.

If you get to the range and start having a bad day, quit or switch platforms. Do not reinforce failure. I always carry a rifle, so if I'm just not feeling it, I can go to a radically different platform.

ToddG
07-11-2011, 04:53 PM
Awesome, likely epic thread TC.

Know your level of commitment. Don't begin down the path of precise marksmanship and perfect technique if you're only going to practice once a year. If you're not going to learn to use the front sight properly, don't bother with it. If pointing the gun, screaming "Ahhhhh!" and cranking on the trigger is all you can learn to do, work on doing that safely.
Be the beginner. Don't get ahead of yourself and try the more fun stuff until you can safely operate the pistol properly and hit what you aim at on demand. I can tell you as someone who teaches classes aimed at more advanced shooters: there is a huge difference between the guys who took time early on to learn the fundamentals and those who did not.
Be safer than everyone around you. Don't drop to the level of gun handling you see from your friends or even teachers. Don't make excuses or look for exceptions. Follow the rules and be wary of anyone who does otherwise.
Don't stress over "best." It doesn't matter if there is a gun somewhere that shoots better than yours. It doesn't matter if your teacher tells you to hold the gun one way and someone famous holds it another way. Having a gun that works using a technique that works... works. You've got all the time in the world to refine and perfect what you're doing and what you're using. Don't be paralyzed by the possibility that you may have to change something some day. No matter what anyone tells you, you can get accustomed to new gear, you can learn to do something a new way, you even can break bad habits.
Practice. Sorry, but there is no way around it. I have people walk up to me at the range all the time and ask me how I learned to shoot so well. I tell them I get to practice a lot. Most of them seem to think I just don't want to share my secret ninja pistol dim mak recipe. Sorry, it's just not so. No one ever went from newbie to world class over the course of a 2-day pistol class.

CCT125US
07-11-2011, 05:10 PM
Always keep in mind that terms such as "good", "often", "accurate", and "a lot" are relative terms that mean vastly different things to people. Always work to improve yourself and don't be afraid to search out better shooters than you and learn from them. And while your minute of barn may be "accurate" to you, there is going to be someone who is more "accurate" than you. Some people shoot "often" and that means one time a year, others shoot weekly and that is not "a lot". Some people shoot "a lot" meaning 50 rds per range trip. Others shoot a skid per year and that is "a lot" .... terms are relative. As long as you are improving and you can measure it, you are on the right track.

Prdator
07-11-2011, 05:48 PM
Once you have a good handle on the Square range move on to some "Good" Force on Force classes. Look at ECQC by Southnarc and CQT by Mike Brown at USSA. These classes will help you manage the 0-3 foot range and how to "Manage UnKnown Contacts" this is proly the most important thing you can learn
it will really open your eyes!!!


Human Reaction time is Approximately one quarter of a second.

Use a mirror and video to clean up your draw stroke and reloads.

Train with different trainers every chance you get.

Odin Bravo One
07-11-2011, 07:29 PM
Not your gun, nor your holster, nor your nuclear tipped super ammo, or the latest whiz bang sights are going to win the fight you. Your mind and training will. Train for the WORST case scenario, not the one that happened to "that one guy, in that one town, a few years back".

Never think you have the magic touch and have learned all there is to learn. The grave yards are full of people who thought they knew it all, or that "good enough" was actually good enough. Training and learning is a never ending process. When you have it all figured out, all the answers, and no longer need to practice or train...........sell or give away your guns.

I have three reminders in stragic locations where I will see them often in my daily life, the one that applies, or should apply to most serious students of the pistol for defensive purposes reads: "If you knew you would be fighting for your life tomorrow, would you change the way you train today?"

Al T.
07-11-2011, 08:13 PM
Another one I've had to relearn a few times.

Practice your weak points, reinforce your strong points. Nobody likes to do it, but it takes much more time to practice those weak skills and it usually sucks. The flip side is that by paying attention to the fundamentals as you fight your way through the weak skills usually pays dividends when you reinforce the strong skills.

DonovanM
07-11-2011, 11:01 PM
H&K P30 - stock factory sights use #3, a "drive the dot" sight picture.
Glock - stock factory sights use #2. Taller aftermarket sights installed on a Glock like Warren Tactical may require #1 with some types of ammunition.

Etc.

SIG: #3 with most ammo. Lower with 115gr.

Great thread!

beltjones
07-12-2011, 03:01 PM
SIG: #3 with most ammo. Lower with 115gr.

Great thread!

Well, to be fair, the same ammo in the same gun using the same sights could have two different POIs in the hands of two different shooters.

Rather than trying to find or compile a "master" list of all the POA/POIs, develop your own data with your own gun and your own ammo - and with you as the shooter at different target distances.

Knowing where your rounds impact at 5, 10, 15, 25, and 50 yards is critical information for any shooter to have.

DonovanM
07-12-2011, 04:38 PM
Well, to be fair, the same ammo in the same gun using the same sights could have two different POIs in the hands of two different shooters.

Rather than trying to find or compile a "master" list of all the POA/POIs, develop your own data with your own gun and your own ammo - and with you as the shooter at different target distances.

Knowing where your rounds impact at 5, 10, 15, 25, and 50 yards is critical information for any shooter to have.

The consensus on SIGforum when someone asks why they're shooting low (thinking to use a #2 hold) is always that you're supposed to aim by driving the dot. As far as I know, the gun was designed to shoot that way, and it would have that POI out of a machine rest. I've had friends shoot my pistols with the same results I've had.

You are correct, in that it would of course be foolish to say that it would be the same for each and every shooter. But I think anyone who is looking critically at the master list should understand that it's only a starting point, and to dope out how they shoot their own pistols their own way. It's good knowledge to have to know where the manufacturer intends the POI to be, if only to save a little ammo doping that out for yourself.

(BTW, how's your injury? You've foolishly allowed me to almost catch up with you in terms of classification. You better not let me beat you to Master!)

beltjones
07-12-2011, 05:53 PM
The consensus on SIGforum when someone asks why they're shooting low (thinking to use a #2 hold) is always that you're supposed to aim by driving the dot. As far as I know, the gun was designed to shoot that way, and it would have that POI out of a machine rest. I've had friends shoot my pistols with the same results I've had.

You are correct, in that it would of course be foolish to say that it would be the same for each and every shooter. But I think anyone who is looking critically at the master list should understand that it's only a starting point, and to dope out how they shoot their own pistols their own way. It's good knowledge to have to know where the manufacturer intends the POI to be, if only to save a little ammo doping that out for yourself.

(BTW, how's your injury? You've foolishly allowed me to almost catch up with you in terms of classification. You better not let me beat you to Master!)

You're absolutely right. My post wasn't directed at you, it was meant as a fact for beginners.

I was just saying that instead of trying to find some list, people should go shoot their own guns and find out where they impact.

The wrist is sore. I shot the Texas Limited Championship last weekend, and did ok, but I'm paying for it now. I have another appointment with a new orthopedist next Friday. I'm hoping for some shred of good news.

jslaker
07-12-2011, 06:00 PM
Chamber checks are free - so there's no reason you shouldn't perform one every time you pick up a gun.

Now, you'll often hear this advice in relation to verifying that the gun is unloaded during handling -- and that's important! -- but many people overlook that it is equally important to verify the state of a weapon that you presume to be loaded.

One of the single scariest experiences I've had since I started carrying was checking my gun one day, discovering an empty chamber, and realizing that I'd been carrying an empty gun around for the better part of a week because I'd forgotten to chamber a round of defensive ammunition at the end of my last range session. If I'd needed that gun during that time frame, there's a good chance I'd have been royally screwed.

I have not put a gun on my belt without visually verifying that it is loaded since.

Pistol Shooter
07-15-2011, 04:03 PM
Chamber checks are free - so there's no reason you shouldn't perform one every time you pick up a gun.

Now, you'll often hear this advice in relation to verifying that the gun is unloaded during handling -- and that's important! -- but many people overlook that it is equally important to verify the state of a weapon that you presume to be loaded.

One of the single scariest experiences I've had since I started carrying was checking my gun one day, discovering an empty chamber, and realizing that I'd been carrying an empty gun around for the better part of a week because I'd forgotten to chamber a round of defensive ammunition at the end of my last range session. If I'd needed that gun during that time frame, there's a good chance I'd have been royally screwed.

I have not put a gun on my belt without visually verifying that it is loaded since.

Very good point. :)

Not only good information for beginners but something we all might need to be reminded of.

David Armstrong
07-16-2011, 05:26 PM
In most things related to firearms there is no such thing as "best", only different. There is no best gun, best caliber, best holster, best bullet, and so on. Find good quality gear that you like and learn to use it.

ford.304
07-18-2011, 12:15 PM
And the corollary to this, in my opinion, is that you should not agonize over your "first" gun. Read enough advice to know which guns don't suck, then buy the cheapest one and spend the rest of your money on training and practice. If you don't practice, it doesn't really matter what gun you picked. If you do practice, a year later you can sell the gun if you decide you don't like it, and you'll have a much, much better idea of what you actually want in a firearm.

Packy
07-19-2011, 08:06 AM
Don't shoot alone.
Shoot with friends who are better than you are so that you will learn faster.

TCinVA
07-19-2011, 10:16 AM
A lot of great input so far...thank you. Some of it has gone in directions I didn't originally anticipate, but that's a good thing. Keep the suggestions coming. Ultimately my goal is to try and organize the input into a topic in the reference forum that can be linked to more in depth discussions of the particular topics if folks want to dig into the details more.


Don't shoot alone.
Shoot with friends who are better than you are so that you will learn faster.

I'll modify that slightly...friends that are better than you is certainly an excellent option, as being pushed by greater levels of skill in a partner has enormous benefits. That's one reason why the Virginia crew tends to miss no opportunity to get together on the range and shoot. Anyone can win practically any drill or contest we come up with and that has a way of making everyone perform at their best or bite it really hard but with an understanding of what went wrong and how to fix it. If you don't understand what you did wrong or how to fix it, one of the other guys on the range probably does. Yes, the fact that there's a professional firearms instructor in the mix doesn't hurt with that, but the other guys are pretty talented at diagnosis and critically breaking down what's happening as well.

At a minimum, though, it's important to partner up with someone who takes work on the range at least as seriously as you do. If your goal is improving skill then you'll show up with the firearm you are trying to learn and with a plan of what specific skillsets you are going to work on. You may bring along a backup gun or another similar weapon with a conversion kit for cheap practice. If your "partner" shows up with 19 guns and wants to function check this, or zero the scope on that, etc...then he's not there to train and he's actually a hindrance.

If that's your situation, shooting alone is far better. If you can't find a real training partner then work alone as seriously as you can, but never miss an opportunity to get on the range with people who are better than you so you can learn from them.

Joe in PNG
07-19-2011, 02:57 PM
Don't get hung up on "Stopping Power" and the idea you have to get a .45acp over a 9mm, or a magnum over a .38spec. The heavier calibers are more expenisive to buy, harder to shoot, and don't deliver much advantage anyway.

JFK
07-21-2011, 12:01 AM
Take every opportunity to practice your motions.

What I mean by this is every time you have an opportunity to go through the motions of your presentation do it like you mean it.

Example: When I shoot IDPA and I am instructed to 'load and make ready' I practice my draw stroke like I would any other time the pistol leaves the holster. I do the same when I insert the magazine. Index my elbows, etc. Even though this is done in 1/4 time or slower the repetition does not hurt. Same goes for after action drills.

zml342
07-21-2011, 06:32 AM
When you are first beginning remember to slow down. Learn the proper technique in a slow/slower motion and then build your speed. You don't need to draw as fast as you can or pull the trigger as fast as possible. Build the foundation and then work from there.

section8usmc
07-23-2011, 09:24 PM
Everyone posting on this forum has been around long enough to have heard the phrase "Assume makes an ass out of you and me". It can also kill you, or someone else in this context. This isn't assuming you have your extra car key, or your spouse will pick up milk on the way home.

Never, ever, assume that your weapon or someone else's is not loaded. Infact, if there is one thing you should assume in firearms, it is just the opposite. Every gun is loaded. Period.

Never assume that the guy at the range next to you knows what he is doing. How many times have we been to the range, see somebody with more guns than an Arnold movie, then watching him, realize he can't hit the barn standing inside of it. Be careful who you take tips from, and if you have any doubt at all, consult a pro. Like was said before, be aware of EVERYONE. The guy next to you may he an NRA instructor, but while he is shooting, the guy two targets down may waving a gun around while he's talking to his buddy. Safety is everyone's responsibility.

Never assume you have trained enough. Someone that is a professional may train every day, and there is reason for it. To be proficient at anything requires practice, no matter how good you are. You can never train for every situation, but that
should not stop you from trying.

I also like the post about the gun itself. The shooter makes the gun, not the other way around. A crappy gun is a crappy gun, but a decent gun in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing, is far better than the "best gun on the market" so to speak, in the hands of someone who does not know what they are doing.

One more thing...overconfidence. That seemed to be why the DEA agent shot himself in the foot. We are ALL human, and we are ALL fallible. That's why safety is the first thing that should be practiced above all else. The pro's here will say the same. That's why they say start slow. You do a few draws, start getting that confident, cocky feeling, and next thing you know, you or someone else is leaving on a stretcher, in one form or another. I was on vacation for two weeks, but I am a pro, so I can do it just as fast as always. Again, these guys are professional for a reason. I'm sure they can, and I bet they know they can too, but they won't. The one post he said he even practices slow at the range, right before. That to me is a pro. And he may be there every other day ! Start slow, and go from there. They do, and so should I, and so should you. Thanks for the awesome posts guys ! You can NEVER get enough info, and it shows that you care about safety above all else. It's good to know you're out there !

Failure2Stop
07-27-2011, 01:23 PM
It starts and ends with putting the bullet where it's supposed to go.
Everything you do should support the shot you have to make.

Gadfly
07-27-2011, 03:28 PM
A lot of the posts have already presented a wealth of information.

Coming from police work, I had to learn the hard way about holster selection. Don't cheap out. Buy quality! Buy quality for comfort, for retention, for durability, and for the ability to re holster with one hand.

Avoid the "one size fits nothing" style of nylon holsters out there. This type of holster has little to no retention, and can make re holstering difficult. An affordable, quality holster can be had in nylon, leather or kydex, so avoid the $10 holster bargains. You should be able to return the gun to the holster using only one hand, and you should be able to activate any retention devise (thumb break, rotary hood etc.) with one hand, AND WITHOUT LOOKING AT THE HOLSTER. A threat can be located in many places, but it will never be in the bottom of your holster. You should keep your head up, scan for threats, and go back to the holster and secure your weapon with one hand. I have seen far to many folks attempting to hold the holster open with their support hand, while attempting to re holster the pistol with the strong hand. They "laser" the support hand, and are inviting disaster should there be an A/D. Also, avoid the soft suede IWB style of holster at all cost. These things are basically close to impossible to re holster without removing the holster to re insert the pistol.

I for one have a box of new holsters that looked great in the catalog, but after I wore them for a day or two, or tried to qualify with them, I realized they were not for me. So into the box they went. I now let other officers borrow these so they can "try before they buy". I HIGHLY recommend this approach. Borrow as many different holsters as you can, and actually use them at the range to draw and re holster, and wear it around for 8 to 10 hours to check for comfort. Most gun folks have multiple holsters, so ask around, borrow some different styles, and see what works for you before you shell out the cash...

You just spent $400 to $1000 on a pistol, suck it up and spend $50 to $100 on a holster. It will be cheaper than buying several flimsy crap holsters for $25 per copy, then realizing you should have just bought a decent one to begin with.

Stay safe.

iCarbine
07-31-2011, 10:34 AM
- Gun shops generally are not fountains of wisdom. The same thing can also be said of most cops and miliary in my experience.

- With few exceptions, a new shooter should shoot several hundred rounds through his new gun prior to considering any modifications.

- Don't "child-proof" your guns, "gun-proof" your children. That said, they should be adequately secured.

- Buy several quality magazines. The one or two that came with your gun are not enough. Aftermarket magazines are usually only a good idea with 1911s and ARs. Otherwise, buy factory mags.

- As has been said, holster selection is very important, especially for concealed carry. Finding a good holster will cost you time and money. Deal with it.

jslaker
07-31-2011, 03:13 PM
- Buy several quality magazines. The one or two that came with your gun are not enough. Aftermarket magazines are usually only a good idea with 1911s and ARs. Otherwise, buy factory mags.
One other exception - Mec-Gar for Beretta and SIG since they build their factory magazines anyway.

ADKilla
08-01-2011, 07:58 AM
Awesome, likely epic thread TC.

Know your level of commitment. Don't begin down the path of precise marksmanship and perfect technique if you're only going to practice once a year. If you're not going to learn to use the front sight properly, don't bother with it. If pointing the gun, screaming "Ahhhhh!" and cranking on the trigger is all you can learn to do, work on doing that safely.
Be the beginner. Don't get ahead of yourself and try the more fun stuff until you can safely operate the pistol properly and hit what you aim at on demand. I can tell you as someone who teaches classes aimed at more advanced shooters: there is a huge difference between the guys who took time early on to learn the fundamentals and those who did not.
Be safer than everyone around you. Don't drop to the level of gun handling you see from your friends or even teachers. Don't make excuses or look for exceptions. Follow the rules and be wary of anyone who does otherwise.
Don't stress over "best." It doesn't matter if there is a gun somewhere that shoots better than yours. It doesn't matter if your teacher tells you to hold the gun one way and someone famous holds it another way. Having a gun that works using a technique that works... works. You've got all the time in the world to refine and perfect what you're doing and what you're using. Don't be paralyzed by the possibility that you may have to change something some day. No matter what anyone tells you, you can get accustomed to new gear, you can learn to do something a new way, you even can break bad habits.
Practice. Sorry, but there is no way around it. I have people walk up to me at the range all the time and ask me how I learned to shoot so well. I tell them I get to practice a lot. Most of them seem to think I just don't want to share my secret ninja pistol dim mak recipe. Sorry, it's just not so. No one ever went from newbie to world class over the course of a 2-day pistol class.


Excellent points. Be the beginner...it's like learning to drive a car or motorcycle. When you're learning to drive you take the curves slow. As you get more experience you can ratchet up the throttle. Drive the curve as fast as your level of expertise allows and not any faster.

jetfire
08-01-2011, 11:54 AM
Don't trust instructors who preach that their kung-fu is the strongest and only brand of kung-fu.

TommyG
08-04-2011, 11:28 AM
Be humble.

Be prepared to be "that guy" regarding equipment choices, your technique and your ability. Understand that you are a beginner (it is OK to be one) and approach it with a good attitude and an appetite for learning. Gun people by and large are great folks and will be willing to help you along on your journey.

When you attain a level of proficiency follow the excellent example of Todd and the other SMEs and members here and pass on what you know.

ubervic
08-05-2011, 06:23 PM
Be humble.

Be prepared to be "that guy" regarding equipment choices, your technique and your ability. Understand that you are a beginner (it is OK to be one) and approach it with a good attitude and an appetite for learning. Gun people by and large are great folks and will be willing to help you along on your journey.

When you attain a level of proficiency follow the excellent example of Todd and the other SMEs and members here and pass on what you know.

THIS!!!!!!

Thanks for breaking it down and putting it out there.

dustyvarmint
03-30-2015, 07:30 AM
I don't know of a P-F.com rule prohibiting resurrection of dead threads so...did this thread ever get sanitized and compressed for inclusion in the Reference Section? Here, it goes like the month of March in reverse; in like a Lion, out like a Lamb.

happy shooting, Jerry

RJ
03-30-2015, 07:56 AM
I don't know of a P-F.com rule prohibiting resurrection of dead threads so...did this thread ever get sanitized and compressed for inclusion in the Reference Section?

I dunno, but it sure was real useful for this noob to read it this morning. Lot of great info here.

Rich

UNK
03-30-2015, 09:10 AM
Eye and ear protection ALWAYS. That means glasses designed for shooting and the impact of lead or case slivers or worst case scenario a weapon that has a catastrophic failure.
The smaller the weapon the harder to shoot.

Chuck Haggard
03-30-2015, 09:22 AM
The Four Rules Of Firearm Safety

1. All guns are always loaded.

2. Never point the gun at anything you are not willing to destroy.

3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on target (and you have made the decision to shoot).

4. Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.




Rule 3 is where I think Col. Cooper didn't get it quite right.

If you are shooting your finger should be on the trigger, obviously. If you are not shooting then your trigger finger should be at a point of positive register well above the trigger guard. In or on the trigger guard is "off the trigger", but with what we know about human beings reacting under stress or inattention this is not even close to good enough.
On a polymer framed gun "trigger finger on metal", as in up onto the slide, is a very good idea.

HCountyGuy
03-31-2015, 03:28 AM
This was very helpful to read through, even as somebody who's been carrying a few years. I'll still consider myself a novice in some aspects.

I will add, don't get complacent after taking a single, introductory firearms course (whether mandatory or not). There's ALWAYS room to train, practice and improve.

Supranatural
04-01-2015, 07:01 PM
Sight picture:

Different manufacturers of firearms and sights usually have one of three different sight pictures -

83

Image borrowed from hunt101.com

Number 1 is known as the "6:00 hold" where you place the tip of the front sight under the spot you intend to hit.

Number 2 is known by many names, but often it's referred to as the "standard" or "combat" sight picture where the tip of the front sight is placed on the spot you intend to hit.

Number 3 is frequently referred to as "driving the dot", meaning that the dot on the front sight should be placed on the spot you intend to hit.

When you're attempting to shoot with precision in bullseye or on very small targets (like a 2" circle or a 1" square...or a bad guy's ocular window) knowing how your sights are set up can make the difference between a hit and a miss. Also note that using different bullet weights can change the required sight picture as well.

Note to the forum: I'd like to get a list of sights, factory and aftermarket, and tack it on here so that if someone goes out and purchases a handgun or a set of sights they'll know what the manufacturer's sight picture is intended to be. Example:

H&K P30 - stock factory sights use #3, a "drive the dot" sight picture.
Glock - stock factory sights use #2. Taller aftermarket sights installed on a Glock like Warren Tactical may require #1 with some types of ammunition.

Etc.

I've heard the sight picture description a bit differently. This is from the Sig Sauer website:

All SIG SAUER production duty/combat pistols are set up to use a "combat" sight picture. This is where the front sight completely covers the bulls eye of the target. Using a six o'clock ("pumpkin on a post") or center mass ("half'n'half") sight picture will result in low impact.

ReverendMeat
04-01-2015, 09:54 PM
All SIG SAUER production duty/combat pistols are set up to use a "combat" sight picture. This is where the front sight completely covers the bulls eye of the target. Using a six o'clock ("pumpkin on a post") or center mass ("half'n'half") sight picture will result in low impact.

That made me laugh. I've owned a few SIG pistols and shot a few more, and not a single one of them shot to POA with anything higher than a six o'clock hold. My M11A1 requires lining up the three dots (which places the top of the front sight below the top of the rear sight) and THEN using a six o'clock hold. Not a fan.

ssb
04-02-2015, 01:17 AM
I've heard the sight picture description a bit differently. This is from the Sig Sauer website:

All SIG SAUER production duty/combat pistols are set up to use a "combat" sight picture. This is where the front sight completely covers the bulls eye of the target. Using a six o'clock ("pumpkin on a post") or center mass ("half'n'half") sight picture will result in low impact.

I had to switch from my preferred 147gr HST to 124gr+P HST in large part due to that, uh, combat sight picture.

By "combat sight picture," they did mean "4" high from a rest at 25yds," right?

(124gr+P printed tip of the front sight out to 15yds, maybe an inch and a half high at 25; Barnes TAC-XP 115gr+P was closer to POA/POI. All of this was with 8/8 sights. Trijicon HDs brought the POI back into the realm of "put the orange thing on the target and press the trigger." I really dig the P226, but I couldn't have been more unhappy with the POI issues on my particular example).

RJ
04-02-2015, 06:43 AM
This is very recent, but I found this quite a good compendium of training tips from a variety of trainers, all in one place:

The Firearm Blog: Pistol Shooting Tips by 20 Pros:

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/04/01/pistol-shooting-tips-by-20-pros/

JHC
04-02-2015, 07:12 AM
Rule 3 is where I think Col. Cooper didn't get it quite right.

If you are shooting your finger should be on the trigger, obviously. If you are not shooting then your trigger finger should be at a point of positive register well above the trigger guard. In or on the trigger guard is "off the trigger", but with what we know about human beings reacting under stress or inattention this is not even close to good enough.
On a polymer framed gun "trigger finger on metal", as in up onto the slide, is a very good idea.

I've become quite convinced that Cooper's #1 should be replaced by:

Determine the loaded or unloaded status of a firearm immediately upon picking it up.

I think the "always loaded" fails to stick for the folks that ND unloaded guns.

NETim
04-02-2015, 08:21 AM
I've become quite convinced that Cooper's #1 should be replaced by:

Determine the loaded or unloaded status of a firearm immediately upon picking it up.

I think the "always loaded" fails to stick for the folks that ND unloaded guns.

I agree. Always check for a chambered round whenever picking up or after being handed a gun.

IMHO, the "always loaded" schtick is an attempt to ingrain proper handling habits. If folks get into the habit of blissfully waving the muzzle around willy-nilly "cause it's alright, it's unloaded. I checked", then those same bad habits may come back to haunt them.

Always treat the SOB like it's ready to go.

dgg9
04-02-2015, 08:49 AM
If you are going to carry a gun for defensive purposes get PROFESSIONAL training.


....as soon as possible. In my experience, all the range trips and ammo used up prior to your first real instruction are wasted money and possibly bad habits to be unlearned.

Supranatural
04-02-2015, 09:25 PM
That made me laugh. I've owned a few SIG pistols and shot a few more, and not a single one of them shot to POA with anything higher than a six o'clock hold. My M11A1 requires lining up the three dots (which places the top of the front sight below the top of the rear sight) and THEN using a six o'clock hold. Not a fan.

No disagreement from me regarding their sight picture and how their pistols are sighted in - they claim combat sight picture, I've found center of mass is where all my Sigs seem to work. The quote was more about the terminology regarding the 3 different sight pictures which agrees with most of what I've seen on the web.

Chomps
02-13-2022, 09:23 AM
Sight picture:

Different manufacturers of firearms and sights usually have one of three different sight pictures -

83

Image borrowed from hunt101.com

Number 1 is known as the "6:00 hold" where you place the tip of the front sight under the spot you intend to hit.

Number 2 is known by many names, but often it's referred to as the "standard" or "combat" sight picture where the tip of the front sight is placed on the spot you intend to hit.

Number 3 is frequently referred to as "driving the dot", meaning that the dot on the front sight should be placed on the spot you intend to hit.

When you're attempting to shoot with precision in bullseye or on very small targets (like a 2" circle or a 1" square...or a bad guy's ocular window) knowing how your sights are set up can make the difference between a hit and a miss. Also note that using different bullet weights can change the required sight picture as well.

Note to the forum: I'd like to get a list of sights, factory and aftermarket, and tack it on here so that if someone goes out and purchases a handgun or a set of sights they'll know what the manufacturer's sight picture is intended to be. Example:

H&K P30 - stock factory sights use #3, a "drive the dot" sight picture.
Glock - stock factory sights use #2. Taller aftermarket sights installed on a Glock like Warren Tactical may require #1 with some types of ammunition.

Etc.

I have read this ALL over the place,… (Not certain, but I think I even read it on Glocks official forum somewhere,..) That Glocks use the #2, split the target hold. I’ve been using that POA and shooting LOW for a year. 😡. I couldn’t figure out why until I started using the #3 POA.

My G19.5 has OEM, 3 dot, plastic factory sights & I haven’t done squat to them. They were/are as they were out of the box except that I recently blacked out the rear sights U notch. (…That seems to have helped some with occasionally going L as well.) :shrug:

I still go Left occasionally, but I definitely hit the BullsEye FAR more consistently using that #3, “Combat” hold. And even when I do shoot L,.. the Elevation of my POI tends to be pretty good! I started using this hold with my Hellcat and have been shooting it better as well. (…at least inside 10 yds.)

I’ve mentioned this to a few RSO’s and they’ve confirmed that they typically use #3 with a Glock. Any comments on the apparent discrepancy? I was going NUTS till I figured this out.


(My Walter’s got a Holosun 509t, so this isn’t an issue with it. Dot over Bull,.. Usually Equals a Hole in the Bull! 😎🤪)

JohnO
02-13-2022, 12:14 PM
The Four Rules Of Firearm Safety

1. All guns are always loaded.

2. Never point the gun at anything you are not willing to destroy.

3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on target (and you have made the decision to shoot).

4. Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.


I'll contribute some kitchen table thoughts.

Regarding #4: You should know the Ballistic Capability of your weapon system! "Beyond it" also means the potential of going through your intended target.

Cover & Concealment. Know the difference. Don't mistake concealment for cover.

Two drastically different things. Cover stops projectiles. Cover is dependent upon the type of projectile. What is cover for a handgun round may not be cover for a rifle round. Cover can be difficult to come by. Many things you might think are cover are really only concealment.

Concealment only means you can't be seen but it absolutely does not mean you can't be shot.

Carrying a gun does not make you a gunfighter just like owning a instrument does not make you a musician.

The best and most successful gunfight is the one you avoid.

Gunfight: Bullets going both ways.
Shooting: Bullets going one way.

Don't do anything you would not do unarmed when you are armed! Drop the idea of, I can go there because I have a gun with me, wrong!

You can do everything perfectly, be the most skilled operator and still loose a gunfight. Sometimes the bad guy gets lucky. It happens!

If all you have taken is the NRA Safety Class you are not trained.

You can kill a man but not stop him.

The gun doesn't come out to scare or impress people. If it comes out it is to do work.

Handguns are lousy man stoppers. 80% of the people shot survive 20% don't. Rifles flip that statistic. 80% shot die 20% don't. (Ballpark numbers)

If you are with other people with guns and see something unsafe (range, class ...) open your mouth don't wait till it is too late.

Familiarize yourself with Col. Cooper's Color Code.

Edster
02-13-2022, 12:57 PM
This is a great thread. I'll throw one in I'm pretty passionate about:

Habits are built through repetition. EVERY TIME you handle a gun, you are either ingraining good habits or bad habits.

The four rules don't just apply on the range. As silly and unnecessary as it might seem to some, adhere to the four rules as much as possible. That includes administrative handling.

Yes, that means when you are locking up at the jail intake or in the parking lot because you are about to go somewhere you can't carry. Yes, that means when you are locking up at the end of the day. Yes, that means when you are getting ready to clean.

Even if it seems like it doesn't matter, it helps to establish an unconscious habit. Sooner or later, that habit will either prevent an accident or cause one. It's your choice.