.380 FMJ or JHP?

[vaspence]

With all the banter on the pros/cons of the G42, I'm curious as to what ammunition most are carrying in their .380s and why.

I have an LCP that saw fairly regular summer time pocket use until being displaced recently by the G42. Both are reliable with the FMJ ammunition I use. I choose to carry FMJ for reliability in feeding and perceived consistency of penetration. Note: I haven't personally done any penetration tests, just going off of Doc's observations. I do know it penetrates a deer's skull adequately at less than 10 feet and have done it twice, this by no means validates the choice.

[Chuck Haggard]

Actually kinda validates the choice.

I'm carrying WWB FMJFP in mine right now when I carry it. Trying out Critical defense for reliability. Want to buy some Hydrashock, which IMHO is as good as it gets being a .380 and all.

[vaspence]

My apologies - I also carry the WWB FMJ.

[Beat Trash]

We hosted two ballistic workshops in November 2011. One with Winchester and one with ATK. In 380, we did bare gel tests with the Gold Dot and the Winchester Ranger T series. Penetration was lacking to say the least. I don't have the data in front of me, but I do remember that it was pathetic enough that should I ever carry a 380 pistol, it would be loaded with FMJ for the penetration.

[littlejerry]

The testing that I've seen indicates, ironically, that hydrashock and hornady XTP projectiles are the only HPs that penetrate worth a damn. XTPs are loaded by a lot of different manufacturers but seem to be all dried up at the moment. Hydrashocks are available at reasonable prices online though.

[TGS]

The testing that I've seen indicates, ironically, that hydrashock and hornady XTP projectiles are the only HPs that penetrate worth a damn. XTPs are loaded by a lot of different manufacturers but seem to be all dried up at the moment. Hydrashocks are available at reasonable prices online though.

This.

There are loads which penetrate 10"+ reliably with expansion in the .4xx" range. No, it isn't 12", but remember that's the FBI pass/fail minimum. The original recommendations which are archived in the Tactical Briefs volumes would hold 10" as "acceptable", "marginal", something of that sort. I'm comfortable with that, versus the increased chance of a ricochet off bone with FMJ.....not to mention the low quality among most FMJ. If you want FMJ, I would buy Buffalo Bore's flat point offering....at least then you're sure that the ammunition is of good quality. My experience with WWB was less than desirable for a defense load, IMO.

[charliefox]

We hosted two ballistic workshops in November 2011. One with Winchester and one with ATK. In 380, we did bare gel tests with the Gold Dot and the Winchester Ranger T series. Penetration was lacking to say the least. I don't have the data in front of me, but I do remember that it was pathetic enough that should I ever carry a 380 pistol, it would be loaded with FMJ for the penetration.

While they look good on paper, both .380 and .32 JHPs just don't have enough FPS to both penetrate AND expand. Add to the the very close tolerances in the small guns designed for these rounds and you get functional issues as well (especially when you start increasing pressure to get more FPS...vicious cycle). FMJs for me in these calibers.

[TR675]

I use FMJ myself, but am planning to switch to Hydrashoks due to the greater QC that I understand they go through as opposed to FMJ offerings.

[Chuck Haggard]

My QC check for carrying FMJ, which in no way have the same QC as the premium LE duty ammo or FMJ of the past, is to visually inspect the whole box, preferably a couple of boxes of the same lot number, shoot up all but enough to load mags with during practice, use what's left for carry.

In .32 and .380 I'd like to see someone make a high quality non-expanding JHP with an aggressive edge on the hollow point.

[lyodbraun]

I saw a gel test with this new ammo from Lehigh defense seemed pretty decent.. In .380
http://www.lehighdefense.com/index.php/shop/ammunition/xtreme-penetrator

[MGW]

My QC check for carrying FMJ, which in no way have the same QC as the premium LE duty ammo or FMJ of the past, is to visually inspect the whole box, preferably a couple of boxes of the same lot number, shoot up all but enough to load mags with during practice, use what's left for carry.

In .32 and .380 I'd like to see someone make a high quality non-expanding JHP with an aggressive edge on the hollow point.

What are your thoughts on 380 Hydrashok Chuck? The tests on shooting the bull show it lacking expansion though denim but getting good penetration. I don't remember how well it expanded through bare gel but I seem to remember it getting around the 12" mark.

It is fairly sharp but I don't know how well it cuts going though material and such.

[Chuck Haggard]

I think it's as good as you can currently buy in .380 JHPs

[TR675]

My QC check for carrying FMJ, which in no way have the same QC as the premium LE duty ammo or FMJ of the past, is to visually inspect the whole box, preferably a couple of boxes of the same lot number, shoot up all but enough to load mags with during practice, use what's left for carry.

Ditto, that's what I do now and no problems yet... Once I get my Shield's POA/POI issues sorted out I think the .380 ammo question will be largely irrelevant. Since I got a VG2 for my j-frame it's been about 90% irrelevant in any event.

[Drifting Fate]

I saw a gel test with this new ammo from Lehigh defense seemed pretty decent.. In .380
http://www.lehighdefense.com/index.php/shop/ammunition/xtreme-penetrator

I am wary of the small ammo houses, but I'm curious about this loading as well.

[NickDrak]

This guy seems to put a lot of time & effort into his ammo reviews and I haven't heard of anyone who says that his reviews are fudged in any way. I stocked up on the Fiocchi Extrema 90gr XTP load based off of his various .380 reviews. Ran 100rds of it thru my G42 without a hitch. Looks like any .380 round loaded up with the XTP bullet should perform about as good as you can possibly expect out of a .380 pistol.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNtPHYwcDts

[DocGKR]

We have NEVER found a satisfactory .380 Auto load to recommend. The best of the worst in .380 seem to be the Hornady 90 gr XTP (poor expansion), Federal 90 gr HydraShok (inconsistent expansion), and Speer 90 gr Gold Dot (a bit shallow on penetration) and all three are poor against intermediate barriers. I'd likely carry FMJ if forced to use .380 Auto.

[Chuck Haggard]

And that's why I tell people it's not even close to being a service pistol round. One can expect reasonable performance from an unobstructed NSR on a mugger, not so much it anything gets in the way.

We had a shooting the other day here where Rem ball ammo from a .380 went through a plate glass front door at the Dollar Store before hitting the intended victim, left a pretty serious welt on him.

[LSP972]

We had a shooting the other day here where Rem ball ammo from a .380 went through a plate glass front door at the Dollar Store before hitting the intended victim, left a pretty serious welt on him.

Simunitions +P????:D

.

[Chuck Haggard]

Simunitions +P????:D

.

Not even +P, looked like a typical Sim round hit.

I've been hit with a hot Sim round, went through the sleeve of my BDU shirt and buried into my bicep deep enough I had to use a pair of needle nose pliers to yank it out.

[Rich]

And that's why I tell people it's not even close to being a service pistol round. One can expect reasonable performance from an unobstructed NSR on a mugger, not so much it anything gets in the way.

We had a shooting the other day here where Rem ball ammo from a .380 went through a plate glass front door at the Dollar Store before hitting the intended victim, left a pretty serious welt on him.

I know of a college student who was shot CM and drop on the spot and died . shot by a Davis 380 using ball ammo . I think it was win USA.

[GJM]

We have NEVER found a satisfactory .380 Auto load to recommend. The best of the worst in .380 seem to be the Hornady 90 gr XTP (poor expansion), Federal 90 gr HydraShok (inconsistent expansion), and Speer 90 gr Gold Dot (a bit shallow on penetration) and all three are poor against intermediate barriers. I'd likely carry FMJ if forced to use .380 Auto.

If you were shooting a lightly clothed bad guy, with no intermediate barriers, would you shoot ball or something like either one of the XTP loads or Hornady Critical Defense?

[Chuck Haggard]

In the old "Shooting to Live" by Fairbairn he noted the only "one shot stop" he ever saw was a bad guy hit with a .380 FMJ, and multiple failures with .45s and .455s.

Steven Camp used to say often "Placement is power", a lot of truth in that.

http://www.specops.pl/vortal/download/files/shooting_to_live.pdf

[Frank R]

Underwood .380 ammo.

[Chuck Haggard]

Underwood .380 ammo.

Why?


It's a boutique maker at best, and many of their loadings are not SAAMI spec. Souping up bullets past their design parameters does nothing to increase effectiveness.

[DocGKR]

It is best to use defensive ammunition from major vendors, preferably those with large LE or military contracts and the concomitant QC standards that entails.

GJM--it would depend on the pistol, but likely FMJ to ensure feeding and function, as I have seen a lot of .380 Auto pistols choke on JHP's.

[Frank R]

Why?


It's a boutique maker at best, and many of their loadings are not SAAMI spec. Souping up bullets past their design parameters does nothing to increase effectiveness.

Why? Because their results are impressive. Boutique or not.

[Chuck Haggard]

Why? Because their results are impressive. Boutique or not.

We must be looking at different tests then because I'm not seeing anything impressive about their .380 ammo. I am certainly not impressed with ammo makers that hot rod a round over it's design specs.

[JHC]

We must be looking at different tests then because I'm not seeing anything impressive about their .380 ammo. I am certainly not impressed with ammo makers that hot rod a round over it's design specs.
(in
OMG I paid big $ for several boxes of Buffalo Bore 124 gr +p that grouped like a 25 yard cylinder bore shotgun pattern at 15 yards! (in several guns)

[jetfire]

Underwood is that same clownshow operation that markets a +P .40 S&W load. I wouldn't put their ammo in my guns if you paid me to do it and had someone else pull the trigger.

[DocGKR]

"Because their results are impressive."

Concur with everything stated above by Chuck and Caleb. From what I have seen, the Underwood results are not impressive.

[GJM]

It is hard for me to imagine anything .380 is spectacular.

On Underwood, I have been running their FMJ load in a Glock 20 and 29. It is loaded similar to other 200 grain TMJ loadings, and has functioned "flawlessly" in multiple of these model Glock pistols. Others report similar experience with this Underwood 200 TMJ load.

[md8232]

Concur with everything stated above by Chuck and Caleb. From what I have seen, the Underwood results are not impressive.

Doc have you watched any of the Ammo Quest series on youtube? This is the latest ep. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LczfeWK9lHw
Any comments on his procedure?

[Chuck Haggard]

It is hard for me to imagine anything .380 is spectacular.

On Underwood, I have been running their FMJ load in a Glock 20 and 29. It is loaded similar to other 200 grain TMJ loadings, and has functioned "flawlessly" in multiple of these model Glock pistols. Others report similar experience with this Underwood 200 TMJ load.

Might be, however anyone who sells .380 and .40S&W "+P" is starting to slide towards snake oil salesman in my book.

[GJM]

Might be, however anyone who sells .380 and .40S&W "+P" is starting to slide towards snake oil salesman in my book.

Double Tap, Buffalo Bore, and Underwood aren't exactly Federal, Speer and Winchester. I would never buy boutique stuff if I could get it from Federal, Speer or Winchester. The boutique stiff is more expensive, too. However, when you want 10mm penetrator loads, or 200 hard cast in .40, you have no choice other than boutique or load it yourself.

[Totem Polar]

^^^I guess some of this is case-by-case (no pun intended) BB .380 "+P"? No thanks. BB 158 gr LSWCHP+P or 150 gr full wadcutter .38 Spec? Yes please.

[Chuck Haggard]

Double Tap, Buffalo Bore, and Underwood aren't exactly Federal, Speer and Winchester. I would never buy boutique stuff if I could get it from Federal, Speer or Winchester. The boutique stiff is more expensive, too. However, when you want 10mm penetrator loads, or 200 hard cast in .40, you have no choice other than boutique or load it yourself.

How many of those 10mm penetrator loads have proven reliable?

[GJM]

How many of those 10mm penetrator loads have proven reliable?

Platform specific.

My Colt Delta feeds everything I have tried.

The Glock 20 and 29 are good with the Underwood, and mostly with the DT (one exception of shooting the DT with an injured hand). The Buffalo Bore and Corbon are not good in the Glock.

I have a 1076 inbound, recommended by BOM, that I am optimistic about.

[JAD]

And you don't trust yourself more than some schlock artist?

[41magfan]

I'm not addressing any particular "boutique" ammo maker, but I couldn't help but recall how some of this commentary sounds exactly like the disparaging chatter made about Corbon about 30 years ago.

[JodyH]

And 20 years ago Cor-Bon deserved the stink eye they were getting. Their QC back in the 90's was... lackluster.

[CCT125US]

And 20 years ago Cor-Bon deserved the stink eye they were getting. Their QC back in the 90's was... lackluster.

In my late teens and early 20s I discovered Corbon. I promptly set up a rigorous battery of test to determine the effectiveness of said 125gr +P. When it failed to penetrate the first milk jug, I took that as a clue. And that clue was they are great for blowing up milk jugs. I then found Gold Dot.

[Chuck Haggard]

And 20 years ago Cor-Bon deserved the stink eye they were getting. Their QC back in the 90's was... lackluster.

Big time

[Tamara]

FWIW, I've got Hornady Critical Defense in the BG380.

[Chuck Haggard]

FWIW, I've got Hornady Critical Defense in the BG380.

That's what I have in the G42 right now. Going to likely buy some Hydrashock soon though.

[Chuck Whitlock]

FWIW, I've got Hornady Critical Defense in the BG380.


That's what I have in the G42 right now. Going to likely buy some Hydrashock soon though.


That is what is in the TCP. Local Academy was out of Hydrashok yesterday. I'd love to score some Hornady XTP, but it seems EVERYONE who stocks Hornady only has Critical Defense.

[Mike C]

FWIW I too run the Fiocchi Extrema in the wife's G42. It seems to run through everything I have put in through in the past. That includes a Kel-Tek P3AT, Ruger LCP, Taurus TCP, S&W BG380, Bersa Tunder .380, and now the G42. I've had zero issues with it in my wife's G42. The XTP projectiles seem to feed pretty well in most guns I've owned though I haven't had much luck with them in my P30/P2000.

[Totem Polar]

I've been hesitant to voice an opinion on my own G42 fodder, given the handles who have checked in thus far, but I will say that my G42 digests both Fiocchi xtp (my go-to .380) and Fed HS (at least one 25 round box I had on hand) fine at this point. Not all votes are equal, but my own is either the Fiocchi extrema or WWB ball.