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Shellback
08-02-2014, 12:50 PM
Reserve Deputy puts one through the passenger door of a stopped vehicle. (http://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/crime-and-courts/2014/07/23/no-criminal-charges-filed-polk-county-chase/13041481/) Follow up article here (http://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/crime-and-courts/2014/07/21/reserve-deputy-unintentionally-shoots-gun-chase/12947635/). I think it serves as a good training video and subject for discussion.

From my amateur observations he appeared to have way too many things going on at once... It reminded me of Darryl talking about running on the ragged edge at 110 MPH and not being able to process everything going on. Possible sympathetic motor response while going for the door handle? Why not try the door handle before smashing the window? Is it taught as a technique to distract the driver or just an oversight?


http://youtu.be/Q0KauUrFcls

trailrunner
08-02-2014, 04:33 PM
Right before the ND, he was holding the gun in his left hand and knocking the window out with his right hand. Then he put the baton away and put the gun in his right hand.


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pablo
08-02-2014, 08:07 PM
From a MMQB perspective there's a lot that of things that reek of poor training, bad policies, poor mindset and not thinking under stress. Chasing the wrong way, running up to the suspects car, standing on both sides of the suspect's vehicle, and getting in a vehicle with a suspect. The guy that did the ND didn't even have his weapon drawn when he walked up to the car

The badguy should be thanking baby Jesus that he didn't ventilated when the ND happened.

JodyH
08-02-2014, 10:15 PM
The circular firing squad was a disaster just waiting to happen, he's lucky he didn't ND into the suspect or another officer.
Swapping tools while switching the handgun back and forth between his hands was bound to end up in a confused ND.

Lon
08-02-2014, 10:27 PM
Lotsa fail going on there. Serious training issues to resolve.

Chuck Haggard
08-03-2014, 05:00 AM
Failure to apply felony car stop tactics at the end of a pursuit is common, and flies in the face of training. We often appear to have learned nothing from incidents such as Newhall. A copper down in the Dallas area was killed by the suspect a few years ago when he ran up on the car in just this manner.

Breaking out car windows with baton in one hand while holding a pistol on the other, normally involving a switch of the pistol to the non dominant hand, has led to a number of NDs, it's stupid as hell.

Dagga Boy
08-03-2014, 01:59 PM
For all the folks who never seem to "get" what we teach and why.....this video pretty much encompasses a lot of it. Ideas on triggers for mortals, gun handling, mindset, safety, working in chaos, post and pre shooting activities, etc....it is all pretty much in there.

Chuck Haggard
08-03-2014, 02:10 PM
Watched that again.

There was nothing right with anything in that video. Nothing.

Dagga Boy
08-03-2014, 03:17 PM
One of the biggest things I invested a huge amount of time and dedicated effort in with my folks was the gun handling/tactics side. That video is why. That crap happens all the time and the only reason anyone is seeing it is due to the ND. Otherwise, everybody would have gotten a "great job" medal.

Shellback
08-03-2014, 04:05 PM
The badguy should be thanking baby Jesus that he didn't ventilated when the ND happened.

The bad guy wasn't actually a "bad guy". He needed medical intervention.

With diabetes rates rising I would expect to see more incidents like this.

Dagga Boy
08-03-2014, 04:39 PM
One of the most dangerous incidents I was ever involved with was a lady in her late 70's in a diabetic episode. Luckily, I was able to recognize that was what the issue was. When this stuff happens with those who aren't easily identified as not being a crook, things can go very bad. This also illustrates the issues with adrenalin. When you have been chasing someone in the wrong way in traffic at high speeds for a long period and then expected by the public and Monday Morning QB's, to act in a calm and relaxed manner is unrealistic. It doesn't make the mistakes right, it gives us a place to look at for increased training efforts. Unfortunately, it is usually easier to just throw the officers under the bus than invest in an actual solution.

Shellback
08-03-2014, 04:59 PM
Luckily, I was able to recognize that was what the issue was. When this stuff happens with those who aren't easily identified as not being a crook, things can go very bad.
We had a guy not too long ago in Henderson who was driving to work and went into diabetic shock at 4am. Police assumed he was DUI due to his driving, which is understandable, so they pulled him out at a stoplight. They ran into issues when some turd started kicking him in the face multiple times while he was on the ground and other officers were cuffing him. The whole thing was caught on dash cam and ended up in the news, Youtube, etc. Ended up costing $300k to settle that one.


This also illustrates the issues with adrenalin. When you have been chasing someone in the wrong way in traffic at high speeds for a long period and then expected by the public and Monday Morning QB's, to act in a calm and relaxed manner is unrealistic. It doesn't make the mistakes right, it gives us a place to look at for increased training efforts. Unfortunately, it is usually easier to just throw the officers under the bus than invest in an actual solution.
Just like that video. My initial thought was bad dude trying to get away, not stopping, wrong way up streets, etc. and the mindset that you're dealing with a real criminal is completely understandable.

Trooper224
08-03-2014, 05:30 PM
I spent several years teaching traffic stop techniques and officer survival at my agency's academy. The only thing these officer's did right was bring their vehicles to a stop and one couldn't get that done in a tactically correct manner. I couldn't count the number of in-car videos I used for training that showed this same kind of thing, going back to the earliest in-car cameras. Some were from our own people who had proper tactics hammered into their heads repeatedly. Over the years I've conducted multi-agency felony stops where I was the only one with a weapon drawn. Ones in which everything was proceeding by the numbers until the last yayhoo on scene ran up to the vehicle in just such a manner, in front of the rest of us and into our line of fire. I once had to set in court watching a video of a pursuit followed by a felony stop in which I yelled at a fellow Trooper to, "Get the F' back!" when he attempted to do this very thing. Pretty embarrassing for him.

Of course, there are also things like citizens walking into the middle of a felony stop to ask for directions, etc. Stupid ain't limited to behind the badge.

Shellback
08-03-2014, 05:46 PM
Stupid ain't limited to behind the badge.

If that were the case there'd be a lot of officers out of a job.

Chuck Haggard
08-03-2014, 10:06 PM
Ironically enough Graham v Conner was a diabetic problem that turned into a bad deal with the LE involved.


The flip side being how many diabetics that drive even though they know they shouldn't. I recall a double fatality accident that we had to work from just such a guy.

My wife being type 1 since she was 8 years old makes me aware and "sensitive" so diabetic issues. She is the first person to deride people for getting themselves into some of this crap by being "bad diabetics".

Chuck Whitlock
08-04-2014, 09:20 AM
There was nothing right with anything in that video. Nothing.


One of the biggest things I invested a huge amount of time and dedicated effort in with my folks was the gun handling/tactics side. That video is why. That crap happens all the time and the only reason anyone is seeing it is due to the ND. Otherwise, everybody would have gotten a "great job" medal.

Looks like a classic example of "Fortuitous outcomes reinforcing bad tactics".

Chuck Haggard
08-04-2014, 09:21 AM
Looks like a classic example of "Fortuitous outcomes reinforcing bad tactics".

That happens often in these sorts of situations. I hope in this case a brutally realistic AAR happens, along with retraining.

sabre675
08-06-2014, 06:02 AM
Everybody always rushes the car like there is free cookies for being the first one there. Adrenalin over safety any day eh boys. Needs to be more emphasis on In Service Training annually for sure. Unfortunately very little training is done if any in Iowa, after Academy Certification as i applies to situations like this. And annual in service firearms qualification is a joke. Not too far away from where I hail. Just a suburb of Des Moines.