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JDM
08-01-2014, 04:52 PM
I see these occasionally, mostly marked as "DWI Enforcement" vehicles.

What's the idea behind a fully marked, lightbar-less police car?

1slow
08-01-2014, 05:31 PM
Harder to spot at distance. Downside, may not be believed to be the real police at night.

LSP972
08-01-2014, 05:31 PM
Less visibility to the wily, elusive bad driver. The roof mounted light bar is quite prominent to those looking for it. The sleeker, low-profile light bars of today are much lees prominent, but still easy to spot when you know what to look for.

Back in the days of short-range K-band Doppler radar, every time I drove a "slick-top" unit I nabbed quite a few more speeders and stop sign runners, especially on two lane "back roads" (defined as not the interstate).

Same principle behind DWI units; at night, the roof light bar outline is quite visible in reflected light in one's rear-view mirror. Not that it matters that much in DWI enforcement; by the time Officer Friendly is close enough for you to spot him, if he's any good he's already zeroed in on your vehicle.

.

John Hearne
08-01-2014, 05:44 PM
Several reasons, some surprising.

First, lightbars generate wind noise. I've driven both slicktops and lightbar topped cars and will pick a slicktop every day.

Slicktops tend to be better enforcement vehicles as people realize you are the police a lot later. My current vehicle is a slicktop Ford Pursuit Utility (looks like an Explorer) and I can write as many tickets as I want.

On the practical side, slicktop cars get better gas mileage than cars with lightbars. This means that slicktops are cheaper to operate.

In the surprising department, slicktops are safer for officers as slicktops are struck when parked less often than vehicles with lightbars. The thinking is that the height of the lightbar makes the car look further away than lower mounted lights. This means that people slow down sooner.

The only downside I've seen to.slicktops is that they are more expensive to set up well. A slicktop can be lit as well as a lightbar equipped car but it requires a bit more thought and money.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk

John Hearne
08-01-2014, 05:45 PM
Ooops

Coyotesfan97
08-01-2014, 06:28 PM
I drive a fully marked Chevy Tahoe that's slick topped. It surprising how many people pass me at speed on the freeway.

JDM
08-01-2014, 07:38 PM
Interesting. Thanks, guys!

pablo
08-02-2014, 12:19 AM
All of our Traffic and DWI slick cars were paid for with federal grant money, and by fed rules they can only be used for traffic enforcement. I think the traffic guys are just happy to have a car that can't be used by torn up by patrol.

JAD
08-02-2014, 06:19 AM
I admire the utility of slick tops, but when I first moved to Kansas City the KCK cops drove pandas with a single big red revolver like this one:
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/08/02/6e6ugu3e.jpg

While they looked like clown cars in the day I can tell you from experience that when they hit those behind you at night it got your attention.

MGW
08-02-2014, 06:30 AM
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/08/02/qyvyryne.jpg

KHP has a few of these running around for their 75th anniversary. Brings back memories of when my dad worked for them.

jlw
08-02-2014, 07:13 AM
Folks are going to speed no matter what. I announced in the paper and on the radio where we would be. Sent it out via social media and our alert system, and put a flashing sign up on the side of the road warning that we were ahead, and we still wrote a crazy amount of tickets.

Wayne Dobbs
08-02-2014, 09:02 AM
Driving an unmarked and working grant traffic enforcement the last few years before I retired, I could average 30 cites every four hours. Amazing how many bad drivers there are and how many folks are 100% HUA while they're out there.

Doug
08-02-2014, 09:38 AM
Folks are going to speed no matter what. I announced in the paper and on the radio where we would be. Sent it out via social media and our alert system, and put a flashing sign up on the side of the road warning that we were ahead, and we still wrote a crazy amount of tickets.

Agree. People will drive as fast as they feel safe.

It is the reckless top that scare me often violating other laws in the process.

Speed limits, at least in my state, are set at the 85th percentile (bell curve) of vehicles traveling within a time period during a survey by an engineer. Explained to the citizen, on a major road that gets 50,000 cars a day, 7,500 cars travel over the speed limit at the 85th/top 15. Take the top 5 percentile, that is 2,500, 1% is 500 cars/day. If politics allowed it, speed cameras on local arterials would produce record number tickets.

Overall most people are going to travel as fast as they feel safe and speed limits are often set through political means or influence causing even a more disregard for the limit.

People may disagree but non reckless speeding in my opinion is not even close to a collision factor that driver inattention is ....

Driverless cars in the coming decades will change the landscape ;)

PS Never thought about the gas mileage aspect of a slick top fleet. Surprised more highway type dept don't do more if the cost/benefit worked out and the collision/safety aspect reduce collisions with stopped marked units.

LOKNLOD
08-02-2014, 11:05 AM
On the practical side, slicktop cars get better gas mileage than cars with lightbars. This means that slicktops are cheaper to operate.


I'd be interested to see the data on just how much difference that makes.

Something on the roof definitely affects gas mileage, and more so as speeds increase, I just wonder how significant of a difference it is amongst all the other factors that affect gas mileage - driving habits, idle time, etc. I see cruisers in one of two states - sitting still with the engine running, or passing me at high speed, and neither of those is conducive to any sort of effort to achieve good MPGs. Of course a fleet is going to run through an awful lot of fuel and has a limited budget so every bit counts.

TGS
08-02-2014, 11:11 AM
Referring to the comment about the safety of lightbars, is there such a thing as too many lights?

Night-time seems to be no problem, but day time is different. Personally, I have a hell of a hard time getting traffic to recognize me from the side when I'm driving in one of our older SUVs which has a single-stack Whelen lightbar and no quarter-panel or side mirror lights. It only has rear strobes and grill strobes, other than the lightbar.

Our newer SUVs have a dual stack Whelen light bar with both quarter panel lights and side view mirror lights. They seem to be much, much more visible to traffic from the side.

av8usn
08-02-2014, 11:45 AM
As a concerned citizen I do not care if the car has a light bar, no light bar or bubble gum machine on top. I will just drive safely, obey the traffic laws and leave the scofflaws to the L.E.O.'s. :cool:

John Hearne
08-02-2014, 01:01 PM
I'd be interested to see the data on just how much difference that makes....Something on the roof definitely affects gas mileage, and more so as speeds increase, I just wonder how significant of a difference it is amongst all the other factors that affect gas mileage - driving habits, idle time, etc. I see cruisers in one of two states - sitting still with the engine running, or passing me at high speed, and neither of those is conducive to any sort of effort to achieve good MPGs. Of course a fleet is going to run through an awful lot of fuel and has a limited budget so every bit counts.

I think that the small differences over a large fleet is what matters. Even if there is a just a 3% difference in gas mileage, that compounds very quickly over a large fleet running 100,000's of miles per year.

The big difference wasn't the gas mileage but the safety effect. When you Google the study, the slicktop cars had 65% of the accidents that the lightbars did. This was very large study, 1/2 of the entire fleet was converted to slicktops and they ran it for 100,000 miles.

David Armstrong
08-02-2014, 01:07 PM
Regarding the mileage difference, from my last agency that ran same model cars (Crown Vics) we saw an average 3mpg better for the slicks than with the rooftops across the fleet.

LOKNLOD
08-02-2014, 01:31 PM
Wow, 3 mpg is more than I'd have guessed.

The safety effect is interesting too, never would have imagined that working out that way.

David Armstrong
08-02-2014, 01:38 PM
Wow, 3 mpg is more than I'd have guessed.

The safety effect is interesting too, never would have imagined that working out that way.
In fairness I should have pointed out that we still had (have?) a lot of the older lightbars. I would hazard a guess that with the new slimline bars the difference might be a lot less, although I'm not sure.

MD7305
08-02-2014, 01:56 PM
One thing I hated about driving slick top cars is the glare you get on the windshield at night due to the interior mounted lights. I'm sure some of the newer offerings might mitigate this. I think a unmarked, slick top, Police Intercetor Utility would be a traffic enforcement beast, in my jurisdiction at least. Even in a marked Intercetor Utility people sometimes blow by me all or don't realize I'm behind them. I think that for years people looked for the CVPIs and don't know to look for the PIUs, yet.

John Hearne
08-02-2014, 02:13 PM
One thing I hated about driving slick top cars is the glare you get on the windshield at night due to the interior mounted lights. I'm sure some of the newer offerings might mitigate this.

I blame installers. When properly mounted and adjusted the interior light packages made for the appropriate vehicle have almost no flashback. If you slap them in without checking for fit or "retrofit" Crown Vic or similar lights into a modern car, you can have problems.

It's just like the park kill option. Since the 90's you can disable the siren when the car goes into park so you don't have sirens screaming at the end of a pursuit. Most installers won't take the five minutes it requires to make the appropriate connections.



I think a unmarked, slick top, Police Intercetor Utility would be a traffic enforcement beast, in my jurisdiction at least. Even in a marked Intercetor Utility people sometimes blow by me all or don't realize I'm behind them. I think that for years people looked for the CVPIs and don't know to look for the PIUs, yet.

I'm running a marked slicktop Utility and it works great. While rear same-lane RADAR doesn't have the range that opposite closing does, by the time they figure out who I am, it's too late. Current ride:

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/ajp3jeh/2012%20Vehicles/Slicktop%20Utility/IMAG1438-1_zpsac1294a6.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/ajp3jeh/media/2012%20Vehicles/Slicktop%20Utility/IMAG1438-1_zpsac1294a6.jpg.html)

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/ajp3jeh/2012%20Vehicles/Slicktop%20Utility/IMAG1440-1_zpse0c0dddb.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/ajp3jeh/media/2012%20Vehicles/Slicktop%20Utility/IMAG1440-1_zpse0c0dddb.jpg.html)

Full writeup: http://elightbars.org/forums/topic/47960-2012-nps-ford-utility-slicktop/

jetfire
08-02-2014, 02:32 PM
Rear facing same lane radar? That just ain't right, man. Some people just want to go fast without being hassled by revenuers. ;-)

JAD
08-02-2014, 02:36 PM
Montana has low taxes.

JDM
08-02-2014, 03:23 PM
I blame installers. When properly mounted and adjusted the interior light packages made for the appropriate vehicle have almost no flashback. If you slap them in without checking for fit or "retrofit" Crown Vic or similar lights into a modern car, you can have problems.

It's just like the park kill option. Since the 90's you can disable the siren when the car goes into park so you don't have sirens screaming at the end of a pursuit. Most installers won't take the five minutes it requires to make the appropriate connections.




I'm running a marked slicktop Utility and it works great. While rear same-lane RADAR doesn't have the range that opposite closing does, by the time they figure out who I am, it's too late. Current ride:

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/ajp3jeh/2012%20Vehicles/Slicktop%20Utility/IMAG1438-1_zpsac1294a6.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/ajp3jeh/media/2012%20Vehicles/Slicktop%20Utility/IMAG1438-1_zpsac1294a6.jpg.html)

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/ajp3jeh/2012%20Vehicles/Slicktop%20Utility/IMAG1440-1_zpse0c0dddb.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/ajp3jeh/media/2012%20Vehicles/Slicktop%20Utility/IMAG1440-1_zpse0c0dddb.jpg.html)

Full writeup: http://elightbars.org/forums/topic/47960-2012-nps-ford-utility-slicktop/

Thanks for sharing, John.

A lot more thought goes into setting up the warning lights on a police vehicle than I would have ever thought. Interesting reading.

Those utilities are 4WD?

MD7305
08-02-2014, 05:22 PM
BOM, they're AWD

KeeFus
08-02-2014, 06:50 PM
Rear facing same lane radar? That just ain't right, man. Some people just want to go fast without being hassled by revenuers. ;-)

LOL! Same lane radar is great. Even in a marked vehicle like mine its often too late when violators see you.



While rear same-lane RADAR doesn't have the range that opposite closing does...

What radar do you guys use? KSI Golden Eagle II and the newer KSI Raptor's are what we are using. Their range seems great to me...you can really reach out and touch someone ours.

JR1572
08-02-2014, 07:18 PM
A slick top CVPI with only side markings on it is a thing of beauty...

My last CVPI was a unmarked silver 2008 with very dark tint. I miss that car, but I'm really happy with the cream puff I have now.

JR1572

ranger
08-02-2014, 07:47 PM
I just want to know if those stealthy vehicles can be used to pull over the left lane bandits that clog up the highways in Georgia?

Drifting Fate
08-03-2014, 05:53 PM
Rear facing same lane radar? That just ain't right, man. Some people just want to go fast without being hassled by revenuers. ;-)

You say it as a joke, but it's true! (And I drive a hybrid, for crying out loud.)

Trooper224
08-03-2014, 06:12 PM
Years ago my agency went with slick top cars due to resale. By mounting lights inside the vehicle no holes were drilled in the exterior in order to maximize resale value. The splash back from those early interior lights was a bit sporty at night, fortunately the new set ups eliminate this. I've driven both and the reduction in wind noise is significant even with newer low profile light bars. My division recently went to the Ford Utility package and the lack of recognition by the motoring public is rather amusing. Regardless of the markings, etc., they've just become conditioned to recognize the shape of a Crown Vic or a Charger as a "cruiser".

LSP972
08-03-2014, 06:25 PM
... the motoring public...

Wow… been a while since I heard THAT term…:D

.

Alpha Sierra
08-03-2014, 06:54 PM
Professional speeders already know what to look for, slick top or not, regardless of which new car you get issued. They already know to suspect any Ford Explorer or Taurus or Dodge Charger with an unusually dark grille for example.

Trooper224
08-03-2014, 07:03 PM
Wow… been a while since I heard THAT term…:D

.

Uh oh, I'm showing my age. ;)

John Hearne
08-03-2014, 07:38 PM
Professional speeders already know what to look for, slick top or not, regardless of which new car you get issued.

I know and don't care. "Professional" means that their situational awareness is turned on. They are not the problem. Soccer mom running 20 over while texting is my concern.

I can remember when someone weaving in and out of their lane was drunk 80-90% of the time. Now, when someone leaves their lane, odds are great that it's a phone use issue. I'm an ass and tend to write those folks, especially the "it's no big deal" folks.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk

trailrunner
08-03-2014, 08:03 PM
I know and don't care. "Professional" means that their situational awareness is turned on. They are not the problem. Soccer mom running 20 over while texting is my concern.


As a cyclist who spends a lot on the road, this is my worst driver. My alert goes to yellow when I see a 10-year old Honda Civic weaving, because it's probably a teen texting, or when I see a Buick Regal because it's probably being driven by a very old person, but it goes to red when I see the minivan being driven by mom who is late to the soccer game.

jetfire
08-03-2014, 08:53 PM
As a cyclist who spends a lot on the road, this is my worst driver. My alert goes to yellow when I see a 10-year old Honda Civic weaving, because it's probably a teen texting, or when I see a Buick Regal because it's probably being driven by a very old person, but it goes to red when I see the minivan being driven by mom who is late to the soccer game.

My alert goes to 10 when I see a cyclist, because there's a 99% chance they're going to ignore traffic laws and do something incredibly dangerous.

Alpha Sierra
08-03-2014, 09:06 PM
My alert goes to 10 when I see a cyclist, because there's a 99% chance they're going to ignore traffic laws and do something incredibly dangerous.

+1

The good thing is that I only get to sue the cyclists insurance co to get my car fixed. The cyclists insurance co also gets to pay for their client's funeral.

Honey Badger

Alpha Sierra
08-03-2014, 09:07 PM
I'm an ass and tend to write those folks, especially the "it's no big deal" folks.

Rock on, officer!

TR675
08-03-2014, 09:13 PM
My alert goes to 10 when I see a cyclist, because there's a 99% chance they're going to ignore traffic laws and do something incredibly dangerous.

Can't speak for anyone else but the only incredibly dangerous thing I do on the road - city streets, mind - is ride at 15-20 mph, mind my own business and stay over by the curb as far as I can.

Still seems to throw drivers into paroxysms of rage. Pickup truck drivers, especially.

John Hearne
08-03-2014, 09:14 PM
Rock on, officer!

Dude, it's hopeless. I once stopped a vehicle at night for weaving. The driver admitted to texting. He was the local high school's driver ed teacher.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk

orionz06
08-03-2014, 09:32 PM
I hate slick top cars. I also hate the new LED's that all these cars have. When the lights are so damned bright that I have to slow to a crawl and even then visibility is questionable because there is a friggin' 1970's disco show on the car I think there is an issue. I am curious to see if there have been any secondary accidents due to the bright ass lights.




My alert goes to 10 when I see a cyclist, because there's a 99% chance they're going to ignore traffic laws and do something incredibly dangerous.

My alert is at 10 when I am on a bicycle and see a car because there is a 99% chance they are going to ignore traffic laws and do something incredibly dangerous.

trailrunner
08-03-2014, 09:52 PM
My alert goes to 10 when I see a cyclist, because there's a 99% chance they're going to ignore traffic laws and do something incredibly dangerous.

It's because of comments like this that I'm glad Virginia now has a three-foot passing law.

JDM
08-03-2014, 09:57 PM
Do not turn this thread into a bicyclist vs. motorist thread.

Thank you.

Alpha Sierra
08-03-2014, 10:14 PM
Dude, it's hopeless. I once stopped a vehicle at night for weaving. The driver admitted to texting. He was the local high school's driver ed teacher.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk
shakes head.........

Alpha Sierra
08-03-2014, 10:16 PM
Can't speak for anyone else but the only incredibly dangerous thing I do on the road - city streets, mind - is ride at 15-20 mph, mind my own business and stay over by the curb as far as I can.

Still seems to throw drivers into paroxysms of rage. Pickup truck drivers, especially.
You must never see bicyclists riding against traffic, running stopsigns, and failing to yield.

Don't worry, I see them. Lucky for them.

Trooper224
08-03-2014, 11:38 PM
To get this thread back on track, after all who doesn't find slick top patrol cars riveting..................... You're all a bunch of inept pogues when you get behind the wheel of the four wheeled coffin of your choice, straddle the two-wheeled penis extension of your choice, or pedal like mad because you just loved Breaking Away or want to prove you have more testicles than Lance Armstrong. Every single one of you leaves your common sense and critical thinking skills at home in the sock drawer when you hit the road. In other words: none of you can operate a vehicle without going full retard and thank you for the job security. Now, let's use our words and get back on task. ;)

PT Doc
08-04-2014, 06:18 AM
"Anyone who drives slower than me is an idiot. Anyone who drives faster than me is reckless." I just hate the jerks who buy and drive decommissioned Crown Vics and even keep the spotlight.

Alpha Sierra
08-04-2014, 06:39 AM
I just hate the jerks who buy and drive decommissioned Crown Vics and even keep the spotlight.

Trailer parks around here are the most likely domicile for their owners (usually volunteer firemen who add red lights to them). The biggest toolbags also wear dark polos, blue/black BDU trousers, and Hi-Tek "tactical" shoes.

Bonus points for multiple antennae.

orionz06
08-04-2014, 06:46 AM
Trailer parks around here are the most likely domicile for their owners (usually volunteer firemen who add red lights to them). The biggest toolbags also wear dark polos, blue/black BDU trousers, and Hi-Tek "tactical" shoes.

Bonus points for multiple antennae.

These people you speak of, I have a strong dislike for them. I want to knock off that damned light on their car and smash away their damned rack of blue lights. I swear they spend $500 on the car and $700 on the damned lights.

Chuck Whitlock
08-04-2014, 09:34 AM
The local SO here has a few 4-dr F150s and Tahoes that are slicktop, dark in color, with dark 3M graphics.

The marked units have happy little graphics.

Chuck Haggard
08-04-2014, 09:39 AM
Dude, it's hopeless. I once stopped a vehicle at night for weaving. The driver admitted to texting. He was the local high school's driver ed teacher.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk


I hope you wrote that guy. I would have.

Chuck Whitlock
08-04-2014, 09:44 AM
I can't remember where I heard the story: "I wasnt texting.....I was on Facebook!!"

orionz06
08-04-2014, 10:04 AM
I can't remember where I heard the story: "I wasnt texting.....I was on Facebook!!"

Sorry officer, I wasn't texting, I was eating my hamburger.

Chuck Haggard
08-04-2014, 10:07 AM
We have a law here, that I often use, called "Inattentive Driving", in which it says you have to pay attention to your driving when you are driving. A shocking concept, right? Anyway, this is often my catch-all for these stops, and what I used before we had a no texting while driving law.

I frankly don't care why you ended up into the on-coming lanes, nor do the people in those lanes, you just need to stop it.

KeeFus
08-04-2014, 10:35 AM
The local SO here has a few 4-dr F150s and Tahoes that are slicktop, dark in color, with dark 3M graphics.

The marked units have happy little graphics.

We hosted some USPCA K9 trials a couple months ago. One of the Tahoes had the ghost graphics on it. You could barely see the graphics under normal conditions. At night those graphics lit up!

I wish I had a slick top with those...alas...it'll never happen here.

Archimagirus
08-04-2014, 03:51 PM
Where I grew up, the local agency had a rule that a completely unmarked police was not supposed to make a traffic stop alone. This was supposed to help keep people impersonating an officer from being able to do their thing. I was pulled over by a slick top car once and the officer got testy when I didn't take the car out of drive until he opened the door. Once he opened the door, I was able to see the logo and that he was legit and threw it in park. He asked why it took me so long to take the vehicle out of gear and I explained my reasoning, which included being ready to speed away to the nearest substation if I didn't see a logo, which thankfully was relatively close. He told me to turn my fog lights off and told me to have a nice day. Portland, OR was the first time a saw a slick top with the ghost graphics, I tried to find a picture of their cars but couldn't, those ghost graphics are the devil.

HCM
08-04-2014, 04:13 PM
"Anyone who drives slower than me is an idiot. Anyone who drives faster than me is reckless." I just hate the jerks who buy and drive decommissioned Crown Vics and even keep the spotlight.

These are popular thug cars - they're practically Probable Cause around here.

Alpha Sierra
08-04-2014, 04:18 PM
By law State Highway Patrol and Sheriffs Office patrol cars must be clearly marked in Ohio. In addition, state law mandates a statewide common vehicle marking scheme and deputy uniform for all 88 counties.

I've never seen a slicktop OSHP or SO patrol car, and maybe one or two city PD slicktops in the decade I've been here.

jlw
08-04-2014, 04:53 PM
By law State Highway Patrol and Sheriffs Office patrol cars must be clearly marked in Ohio. In addition, state law mandates a statewide common vehicle marking scheme and deputy uniform for all 88 counties.

I've never seen a slicktop OSHP or SO patrol car, and maybe one or two city PD slicktops in the decade I've been here.

GA law mandates certain markings for vehicles assigned primarily to traffic enforcement... and then later in the law it says that failure to have the proper markings does not invalidate a ticket.

At least at one time, Ohio had mandated rank insignia as well. The Sheriff in each county wore a single star with the Chief Deputy wearing colonel rank, etc. We are all over the place on that here in GA. In one county around here, the Chief Deputy is a major, in another it's a colonel, and in another it is a major general. I simply don't wear rank insignia, but I am thinking of getting one of each and wearing them all.

ST911
08-04-2014, 05:48 PM
I find state imposition of vehicle marking and uniforming standards to be offensive. Regulate cert standards, CEUs, minimum fitness for duty requirements, but leave the striping of my car or my sleeves to me.

A lightbar as a marking or a qualifying criteria for legitimacy? Laughable.

LSP972
08-05-2014, 05:03 AM
I am thinking of getting one of each and wearing them all.

There are a couple of one-horse-town agencies in Louisiana where the chief (and only commissioned employee) looks like a mexican general in his duty regalia. Back in my day, there was one in particular we referred to as "the commodore".

.

jlw
08-05-2014, 07:16 AM
There are a couple of one-horse-town agencies in Louisiana where the chief (and only commissioned employee) looks like a mexican general in his duty regalia. Back in my day, there was one in particular we referred to as "the commodore".

.

GA still has codified into law the Georgia Naval Militia, but it hasn't been manned since 1908 when they all quit over the color of uniforms the state bought. I have been trying to get the governor to appoint me as a commodore in the GNM. I've also been lobbying for the boss to be appointed as a rear admiral lower half. It just seems fitting.

peterb
08-05-2014, 08:06 AM
I hate slick top cars. I also hate the new LED's that all these cars have. When the lights are so damned bright that I have to slow to a crawl and even then visibility is questionable because there is a friggin' 1970's disco show on the car I think there is an issue. I am curious to see if there have been any secondary accidents due to the bright lights.


The fire service has done a lot of work on this for operations in active roadways. There is evidence that brighter strobes do not improve safety at night. Better directional lighting and scene lighting does improve safety. You need to tell drivers " go here", not just "here I am". There's also a "moth to the flame" effect that bright lights can have on drunks. Overuse of strobes and flashers makes it harder to see personnel working at the scene.

Alpha Sierra
08-05-2014, 08:11 AM
I find state imposition of vehicle marking and uniforming standards to be offensive.
Police are public servants, therefore they work under whatever restriction we the public, via our state assembly, impose on them. Them's the breaks........

Alpha Sierra
08-05-2014, 08:13 AM
The fire service has done a lot of work on this for operations in active roadways. There is evidence that brighter strobes do not improve safety at night. Better directional lighting and scene lighting does improve safety. You need to tell drivers " go here", not just "here I am". There's also a "moth to the flame" effect that bright lights can have on drunks. Overuse of strobes and flashers makes it harder to see personnel working at the scene.
I agree. The overpowering illumination of ultra bright LED flashing lights simply robs oncoming drivers of their ability to see WTF is going on and drowns out the reflection from the roadside personnel's hi-viz clothing.

I would strongly suggest that a modest amount of blue lights with more reflective markings on vehicles themselves would improve safety more than just lighting up the night with blue. I think the UK has done some research to validate that, which is why their police, fire, and EMS vehicles sport some seriously reflective markings.

These may look ridiculous to American police, but evidently they must work or they would not be in use
http://worthstar.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/police-car-022.jpg

http://www.northumbria.police.uk/Images/0371-570x320_tcm4-53607.jpg

TGS
08-05-2014, 08:16 AM
I find state imposition of vehicle marking and uniforming standards to be offensive. Regulate cert standards, CEUs, minimum fitness for duty requirements, but leave the striping of my car or my sleeves to me.

A lightbar as a marking or a qualifying criteria for legitimacy? Laughable.

I'm not sure I understand. I view it as a public safety issue, re: fake cops. Considering I almost shot a guy who I thought was trying to stop and enter my vehicle, and he very well possibly could have been a plain-clothes cop conducting some sort of search for a wanted person in the area....


The fire service has done a lot of work on this for operations in active roadways. There is evidence that brighter strobes do not improve safety at night. Better directional lighting and scene lighting does improve safety. You need to tell drivers " go here", not just "here I am". There's also a "moth to the flame" effect that bright lights can have on drunks. Overuse of strobes and flashers makes it harder to see personnel working at the scene.

National KKK specs for ambulances also speaks to the overuse of lighting at night. They specifically mention white lights should not be used at night.

orionz06
08-05-2014, 08:17 AM
Yeah, the previous generation of lights, locally, was sufficient. Though I just saw an unmarked car in my township that had lighting that was satisfactory, bright, illuminated all corners, and did not cause visibility issues. Perhaps there is better coming.

peterb
08-05-2014, 08:55 AM
The older folks on my department still want all the strobes all the time, regardless of what the data says.

It drives me nuts to be on a closed residential street with a dozen pieces of apparatus, all with strobes going. It's amazing how much calmer a fire/EMS scene is when you turn the scene lights on and the flashing lights off. It's easier to work, too.....

Coyotesfan97
08-05-2014, 09:10 AM
I've heard the newer light bars they've been installing on the new cars have two settings. One for day use and one for night.

Alpha Sierra
08-05-2014, 09:21 AM
I've heard the newer light bars they've been installing on the new cars have two settings. One for day use and one for night.

It would be nice if that setting change took place automatically. It shouldn't be hard to include a optical sensor in the lightbar that measures ambient light. If the switch is manual, it will probably never get used.

Coyotesfan97
08-05-2014, 09:25 AM
There is an optical sensor on the dash but I can't recollect what it's used for. I know it's not the light bar but that would be "slick" idea.

ST911
08-05-2014, 09:50 AM
Police are public servants, therefore they work under whatever restriction we the public, via our state assembly, impose on them. Them's the breaks........

Absolutely, and I'm a true believer in that. If only the legislation made more sense than any other stuff they pass. I might have been more specific. My objection is to regs that establish particulars and specifics of style, form, color, etc rather than presence, visibility, etc. Its not always as...informed...as it could be.

As to the lightbars... I don't put much stock in their presence or absence. Not only are they widely available to police and public alike, many designs are also indistinguishable from high-mounted interior deck or visor lighting. Further, they are often lost in the combined effects of lighting and reflection viewed by the motorist.

Depending on environmentals and vehicle lighting, side markings may not even be observable to a motorist unless they engage in some deliberate positioning, turns, and the like relative to the car stopping them.

Alpha Sierra
08-05-2014, 10:29 AM
Depending on environmentals and vehicle lighting, side markings may not even be observable to a motorist unless they engage in some deliberate positioning, turns, and the like relative to the car stopping them.

Which is why IMO rear reflective markings need to cover the entire rear of the vehicle (see pics of UK patrol cars above). Here in OH, the highway patrol cars only have the words HIGHWAY PATROL in reflective material on the trunk lid (not enough IMO) and Sheriff cars have NO reflective markings on the rear of the vehicle (incredibly dumb considering the vehicles are black). How's that helping officer and motorist safety?

peterb
08-05-2014, 11:09 AM
The reflective chevron striping on newer fire/EMS apparatus offends the traditionalists, but is a huge improvement in nighttime visibility.

orionz06
08-05-2014, 11:49 AM
Partial striping and what not is distracting. A full reflective panel with letters non-reflective might be better. Lots of smaller lot regions or lights just suck and distract. The scene lights on ambulances work well, light then whole scene. Construction zones are easier at night with improved lighting.

ffhounddog
08-05-2014, 12:04 PM
Oh officer, sorry I was on my phone, I was just taking a picture of you doing the same thing.

Officer I was not speeding I was following you. If you are in a hurry with no lights on there must be a Hollywood star or a sale at Dunkin I always need a cup of coffee and a donunt...oh that is not the case then why were you speeding? If you go fast I can go fast right why do you get all the fun? In fact I have done worse in an armored Suburban. Granted Kuwait, Qatar, Saudi, and Jordon are desert places but the cops there have the same IQ as you...dang why did my butt hurt 2 hours later.

Why did you ask for ID? good question You are in an unmarked car and I saw a PD uniform at the dry cleaners with a baggy with their badge and name tag and all that stuff you are wearing in it. How did I see it, they gave it to me instead of my armani suit. Don't I look trustworthy...

Kisses.....

Alpha Sierra
08-05-2014, 02:07 PM
The reflective chevron striping on newer fire/EMS apparatus offends the traditionalists, but is a huge improvement in nighttime visibility.
Almost all ODOT vehicles look like this from behind
http://media2.newsnet5.com/photo/2012/12/20/5am__Winter_weather_preps_176510000_20121220054243 _640_480.JPG

Ohio State Highway Patrol. The only reflective markings are the words STATE TROOPER below the center section of the tail light, the unit number on the left corner of the bumper, and a stripe running across the lower half of the bumper. Not enough IME.
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7290/8749518910_39410a2519_z.jpg

Typical Ohio Sheriff's Office car. I was mistaken from memory. The word SHERIFF across the back is reflective. However that is the ONLY reflective item on the back of a black car. Made worse by the fact that most Sheriff Deputies operate on rural roads where lighting is very poor or non-existent.
http://images41.fotki.com/v209/photos/4/49373/202652/hnpca0781a-vi.jpg

The back of all police cars should look like the back of that truck. Pick yellow and blue or yellow and red to differentiate from the yellow and green livery of the DOT trucks.

David Armstrong
08-05-2014, 02:59 PM
I find state imposition of vehicle marking and uniforming standards to be offensive. Regulate cert standards, CEUs, minimum fitness for duty requirements, but leave the striping of my car or my sleeves to me.

A lightbar as a marking or a qualifying criteria for legitimacy? Laughable.
I'm just the opposite. I've seen way too many times when it was actually hard to figure out who was a cop and who wasn't, security officers who looked exactly like local LEOS except for wording on badges and patches, etc. I think it would be nice to have some uniformity inter-agency, as well as intra-agency. My $.02.

LSP972
08-05-2014, 05:00 PM
GA still has codified into law the Georgia Naval Militia, but it hasn't been manned since 1908 when they all quit over the color of uniforms the state bought. I have been trying to get the governor to appoint me as a commodore in the GNM. I've also been lobbying for the boss to be appointed as a rear admiral lower half. It just seems fitting.

In court one day (we had assisted him on a bad wreck in his little corner of the world) while waiting outside to testisfy, my lieutenant told the "commodore" that he looked like a Brigadier Admiral in the Puerto Rican navy.

I had to go back inside…:D

.

Alpha Sierra
08-05-2014, 05:35 PM
Brigadier Admiral in the Puerto Rican navy.
Puerto Rican Vice Admiral
http://www.history.navy.mil/pics/riveroh01.jpg
http://www.history.navy.mil/bios/rivero_horacio.htm

Puerto Rican Lieutenat General
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a6/Pedro_del_Valle.jpg/320px-Pedro_del_Valle.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedro_del_Valle

Uniforms look awfully familiar

LSP972
08-05-2014, 05:42 PM
I am aware that many natives of Puerto Rico served/serve honorably in the US military; as was my LT. Perhaps you missed the BRIGADIER Admiral part… you know… humor?:rolleyes:

.

Alpha Sierra
08-05-2014, 05:44 PM
I am aware that many natives of Puerto Rico served/serve honorably in the US military; as was my LT. Perhaps you missed the BRIGADIER Admiral part… you know… humor?:rolleyes:

.
I got it. However, I would not be half surprised that someone would say something similar and believe it. That's it, carry on.

TSH
08-05-2014, 05:57 PM
Oh officer, sorry I was on my phone, I was just taking a picture of you doing the same thing.

Officer I was not speeding I was following you. If you are in a hurry with no lights on there must be a Hollywood star or a sale at Dunkin I always need a cup of coffee and a donunt...oh that is not the case then why were you speeding? If you go fast I can go fast right why do you get all the fun? In fact I have done worse in an armored Suburban. Granted Kuwait, Qatar, Saudi, and Jordon are desert places but the cops there have the same IQ as you...dang why did my butt hurt 2 hours later.

Why did you ask for ID? good question You are in an unmarked car and I saw a PD uniform at the dry cleaners with a baggy with their badge and name tag and all that stuff you are wearing in it. How did I see it, they gave it to me instead of my armani suit. Don't I look trustworthy...

Kisses.....

" A fool speaks because he wants to be heard. A wise man speaks because he has something important to say" - Socrates

John Hearne
08-05-2014, 07:58 PM
I've heard the newer light bars they've been installing on the new cars have two settings. One for day use and one for night.

Most modern lightbars have a full-power and a low-power setting. As I mentioned earlier, most installers don't bother to hook up the low-power option. In our current car setups, the low power is not automatic - it must be activated by the officer. We are giving serious consideration to a photo cell and auto-dimming the lights when in "Park" but no firm decision has been made.

The real problem is that the line guys don't understand what works and what doesn't work. Our current install has the lights automatically change patterns to a slower, more sedate mode when the vehicle goes into park. One of the guys I work with takes the effort to hit the button to speed the lights back up on every stop he makes and he certainly won't use the low power mode at night.

There is a definite science to effective vehicle lighting and it does not involve piling as many lights as possible and flashing them as quickly as possible. Three large agencies - California Highway Patrol, Florida Highway Patrol, and Massachusetts State Police - have taken a lot of time and effort to improve their warning lights and none of them try to induce seizures. I find the Massachusetts solution the most interesting. When in park the lights stay on the majority of the time and flash off very quickly to get your attention. It is the complete opposite of what most people would expect to be effective.

HCM
08-05-2014, 08:24 PM
Why did you ask for ID? good question You are in an unmarked car and I saw a PD uniform at the dry cleaners with a baggy with their badge and name tag and all that stuff you are wearing in it. How did I see it, they gave it to me instead of my armani suit. Don't I look trustworthy...

Kisses.....

Admit it.. that uniform didn't come from the cleaners ....... you're wearing your wife's clothes again aren't you ?:D

LtDave
08-05-2014, 09:26 PM
We hosted some USPCA K9 trials a couple months ago. One of the Tahoes had the ghost graphics on it. You could barely see the graphics under normal conditions. At night those graphics lit up!

I wish I had a slick top with those...alas...it'll never happen here.

AZ DPS is testing some of those as well on the Ford Interceptor SUV's. Neat.

KeeFus
08-06-2014, 04:56 AM
Most modern lightbars have a full-power and a low-power setting. As I mentioned earlier, most installers don't bother to hook up the low-power option. In our current car setups, the low power is not automatic - it must be activated by the officer. We are giving serious consideration to a photo cell and auto-dimming the lights when in "Park" but no firm decision has been made.

The real problem is that the line guys don't understand what works and what doesn't work. Our current install has the lights automatically change patterns to a slower, more sedate mode when the vehicle goes into park. One of the guys I work with takes the effort to hit the button to speed the lights back up on every stop he makes and he certainly won't use the low power mode at night.

There is a definite science to effective vehicle lighting and it does not involve piling as many lights as possible and flashing them as quickly as possible. Three large agencies - California Highway Patrol, Florida Highway Patrol, and Massachusetts State Police - have taken a lot of time and effort to improve their warning lights and none of them try to induce seizures. I find the Massachusetts solution the most interesting. When in park the lights stay on the majority of the time and flash off very quickly to get your attention. It is the complete opposite of what most people would expect to be effective.

When we were using strobes we had a dimmer switch. Enter LEDs and all we can do is change the pattern manually. Granted there are I don't know how many patterns but there is no dimmer switch. I like the idea of the pattern changing to a slower pattern when the vehicle goes into park but our installers either don't know how or just choose not to do it.

In regards to reflective striping on the rear of vehicles...the only graphics that are reflective on our cars are the ones on the side. The rear and front ones are not reflective. However, if you run into our vehicles when our lights are on you are either blind or drunk...and in either case you shouldn't be driving. The only good thing about our Chargers is that they came to us with every light (reverse lights & entire red light/brake panel) on the rear of the car flashing when they are activated...not to mention the light bar.

ETA: this is one of our cars. Article pretty much sums it up. No amount of reflective striping/lettering would have prevented this.

http://www.wral.com/police-drunk-driver-slams-into-clayton-patrol-car/13220406/

Palmguy
08-06-2014, 06:46 AM
GA law mandates certain markings for vehicles assigned primarily to traffic enforcement... and then later in the law it says that failure to have the proper markings does not invalidate a ticket.

At least at one time, Ohio had mandated rank insignia as well. The Sheriff in each county wore a single star with the Chief Deputy wearing colonel rank, etc. We are all over the place on that here in GA. In one county around here, the Chief Deputy is a major, in another it's a colonel, and in another it is a major general. I simply don't wear rank insignia, but I am thinking of getting one of each and wearing them all.

I don't know if FL law says anything about deputy uniforms but they are extremely similar across the state.

Not that I care that much but I wouldn't mind if common rank insignia was a thing...it cracks me up (and makes me shake my head) to see sheriffs covered in stars; like this kittenhead (the Sheriff of Orange County, who also fancies himself to be an admiral, apparently):

http://www.ocso.com/Portals/0/Gallery/1050/01.05.09_ChfDandShD.jpg

The sheriff's predecessor didn't wear the sleeve stripes but did rock the four stars.

His wife, also pictured, apparently thinks she is a Vice Admiral. She was, at the time, the chief of the Orlando Police Department. She famously had her service weapon stolen from her government issued vehicle in front of her house. Her explanation: "I never leave my gun in the car, but I did that night because we were expecting guests for the weekend and they had young children. We are allowed to store our weapons in the trunk or passenger compartment as long as they are out of plain view. It was clearly out of plain view."

jlw
08-06-2014, 07:31 AM
I don't know if FL law says anything about deputy uniforms but they are extremely similar across the state.



My understanding of FL law is that state officers are mandated to wear tan, PDs are mandated to wear blue, and Sheriff's Offices are mandated to wear green. I have never actually researched that though.

LSP972
08-06-2014, 09:53 AM
. She famously had her service weapon stolen from her government issued vehicle in front of her house. ."

That has happened to all sorts of LE types who should know better.

My favorite is the female FBI "agent" who left her government ride unattended in a- special- neighborhood while dropping in for a nooner... excuse me, visiting a friend. Homie got all sorts of goodies out of that one.

.

John Hearne
08-06-2014, 12:39 PM
I like the idea of the pattern changing to a slower pattern when the vehicle goes into park but our installers either don't know how or just choose not to do it.


I've had some very frustrating experiences with installers over the years. Most of the time, the guy who owns a radio shop is smart and can do most anything. However, he tends to hire minimum wage people who struggle to avoid putting holes in gas tanks or brake lines. One of the last installers I dealt with a had a dude with an ankle bracelet doing the actual work.

Our coordinate our vehicle setups and we have a eight page wiring plan which explicitly tells the installer what is expected. There is then a checklist when a vehicle is picked up.

As far as neat ideas go, I had them tie the passenger side spotlight into the takedowns. When you hit the takedowns, it looks like there's a second officer in the vehicle

_JD_
08-06-2014, 12:55 PM
Thanks for sharing, John.

A lot more thought goes into setting up the warning lights on a police vehicle than I would have ever thought. Interesting reading.

Those utilities are 4WD?

Don't even get me started on picking a flash pattern....

Sent via Tapatalk and still using real words.

orionz06
08-15-2014, 07:04 AM
A new Explorer with slick lighting stopped by last night to respond beside my house. Night mode was used and it was easier to see me approach when taking out my garbage. The ambulance, when it arrived was so distracting and erratic that it was able to mask the movement of someone approaching from another house (garbage night).

The officer urged the ambulance to change its lights and visibility returned.