Man, I'd sure like a 9mm j-frame... [Archive]

RevolverRob

08-01-2014, 03:59 PM

Relatively inexpensive 940 - Three words I don't think I've ever seen in a sentence. They go along nicely with: properly working 940. All of the ones I've encountered had issues, mainly extraction issues and the occasional tied up cylinder from moonclips. There are two 9mm revolvers I'd consider buying - A 9mm SP101 and a Smith 547, all others I think are a waste of time. I take that back they did some Speed Sixes in 9mm those I would chance.

Converting a 642/442 usually ends up with accuracy issues. You need to run soft lead (non-jacketed) rounds to get decent accuracy out of a 9mm converted 642 and that defeats the purpose of cheap jacketed 9mm, you usually have to load your own and if you go down that road, you might as well just load .38 Specials.

I am totally with you on this though - I want a revolver in the same caliber as my semi-autos to keep a simplified caliber life. It's just that all current and recent past offerings are sub-par, leading me to think maybe .38 special for revolvers and 9mm for pistols is just the reality of my world. FWIW, I settled this by keeping my spent .38 and 9mm brass and bunching it and sending it to Freedom for brass credit to buy .38 ammo with. It cuts the cost down on the .38 closer to 9mm, but still isn't as cheap. I'd roll my own, but I can't find components and honestly value my time too much to make reloading "affordable". I also keep less .38 on hand than 9mm.

Even still - some days I think about selling all of my guns and buying ONE gun, ONE caliber, and saying, "That's it, I am done!".

-Rob

Stephen

08-01-2014, 04:23 PM

Even still - some days I think about selling all of my guns and buying ONE gun, ONE caliber, and saying, "That's it, I am done!".

85% of my centerfire shooting and 100% of my totin' are done with 9mm. But not owning and occasionally shooting a 1911 in .45 and a wheelgun pretty much makes you a communist.

ScotchMan

08-01-2014, 04:48 PM

85% of my centerfire shooting and 100% of my totin' are done with 9mm. But not owning and occasionally shooting a 1911 in .45 and a wheelgun pretty much makes you a communist.

Same situation here, and agree with your comments.

I solved this problem for myself by buying more .357 revolvers and a lever gun to boot. Can't convert them ALL to 9mm :)

LSP972

08-01-2014, 05:39 PM

But not owning and occasionally shooting a 1911 in .45 and a wheelgun pretty much makes you a communist.

LOL! You win the internet for the day.:D

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LSP972

08-01-2014, 05:45 PM

Even with clips the 940 never ran very well for most people. Mine went back to S&W twice and they couldn't get it working, they ended up giving me a 642 in trade.

We had a dozen or so troops buy one of these soon after we started transitioning to Sig 9mms. The supplied moon clips were way too flimsy for the task, and they are what gave the trouble; bend one in the slightest, and it was done.

It took a couple of years, but eventually they stopped showing up at in-service.

A couple of guys bought 547s too, mainly for grins. Those didn't work so hot either. When the cylinder was clean, the "finger" extractor worked okay, but as the charge holes got crudded up via shooting, extraction became progressively less reliable.

I suspect there is a reason why S&W has never offered another 9mm revolver since…

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jc000

08-01-2014, 07:19 PM

85% of my centerfire shooting and 100% of my totin' are done with 9mm. But not owning and occasionally shooting a 1911 in .45 and a wheelgun pretty much makes you a communist.

I try to only shoot metric, comrade.

41magfan

08-01-2014, 07:30 PM

I've always thought a short cylindered J-Frame chambered for the 9mm FEDERAL (rimmed) cartridge would be the cat's meow.

SGT_Calle

08-01-2014, 08:46 PM

The 547 is moon clip-less but I believe it's a k-frame, not J-frame. I'm not sure what barrel lengths were produced either but might be worth some investigation?

oldtexan

08-01-2014, 08:51 PM

...especially a moonclip-less one.

Fool's errand? Waste of time?

I'm considering rechambering a 642/442, finding a relatively inexpensive 940, or maybe even the CA 9mm pit bull (which seems like a bad idea).

My main reason is that a jframe is ideal for me for certain carry situations, and that I really don't want to get into another caliber outside of the 9mm I already have if I don't need to.

Thoughts?

I had a 940 back a decade or so. It had significant sticky extraction issues even after a competent smith work it over by polishing the chambers. I also came to view it as too heavy for a pocket gun, which was the way I intended to carry it, as backup to an IWB-carried semi-auto. Recoil, IIRC, was somewhere between .38 +P and .357 in a steel framed J. the moon clips seemed like a smart idea, but bent easily.

RevolverRob

08-01-2014, 08:57 PM

The 547 is moon clip-less but I believe it's a k-frame, not J-frame. I'm not sure what barrel lengths were produced either but might be worth some investigation?

3" and 4" heavy barrels with square or round butts.

-Rob

JR1572

08-01-2014, 09:59 PM

But not owning and occasionally shooting a 1911 in .45 and a wheelgun pretty much makes you a communist.

I guess I'm a communist since I've never owned a 1911 and I sold my only j-frame a few months ago.

I really want a 9mm j-frame but I guess that will never happen.

JR1572

LSP972

08-02-2014, 12:12 AM

I guess I'm a communist since I've never owned a 1911 ...

What??? Dude…

You ever shoot that Glock mouse gun?

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RevolverRob

08-02-2014, 02:46 AM

But not owning and occasionally shooting a 1911 in .45 and a wheelgun pretty much makes you a communist.

Well to be technical, I think confiscating all the privately owned guns in the world and then redistributing them to people, without compensation would make me a communist. And I sold my last 1911 a few years ago (I was an undergrad and needed the money). Since then I have been thinking of ordering an STI. I am about <this> close to running off the reservation and buying an STI 1911 and an STI 2011. But if I did that, they'd have to be in .45 and thus I would have to add another caliber to stock ammo for. And at this point with six I'm getting a little frustrated.

Also, when I say things like, "I think about selling all of my guns..." I am of course being as equally hyperbolic as you are. Sometimes I think about what it would be like to simultaneously date two supermodels...but it doesn't mean it's got a snowball's chance in Hell of happening.

JR1572

08-02-2014, 06:30 AM

What??? Dude…

You ever shoot that Glock mouse gun?

.

Yep, I've never owned one. Those guns just seem too complicated for me.

Not yet. I need to go shoot that thing!

JR1572

Alpha Sierra

08-02-2014, 08:32 AM

Maybe I'm missing something so help me out.

Is it THAT much of a hardship/hassle to have to deal with two handgun calibers in your armory? I mean, really?

Revolvers have been always engineered to work with rimmed cartridges. Stick to that and life is simple.

All my .38 Special defensive loads are the FBI load. Remington's version for my Airweight and Buffalo Bore's version for my 64. That's a nearly 160 gr slug of soft lead crushing through at 850 fps from the snub and nearly 1100 fps from the 4" tube. No 9 mm load is going to outperform those in any meaningful way.

If I felt the need for better barrier penetration I'd just as soon fill up a Model 65 with 158 grain Hornady XTPs in .357 Magnum and be done with it.

jc000

08-02-2014, 08:48 AM

Maybe I'm missing something so help me out.

Is it THAT much of a hardship/hassle to have to deal with two handgun calibers in your armory? I mean, really?

Well, when you have mild OCD… yeah, it is.

RevolverRob

08-02-2014, 08:59 AM

Maybe I'm missing something so help me out.

Is it THAT much of a hardship/hassle to have to deal with two handgun calibers in your armory? I mean, really?

So, have you tried finding decently priced .38 Special 158-grain FN/RN/LRN/whatever practice ammo lately? It is available, but not at a price that won't make you a bit green to spend. I had a nice stash to tide me through the last ammo crunch - But at the end it is time to stock back up and suddenly, the cash saved buying 9mm is actually pretty significant, as in "Here buy another half-case of 9mm with the savings.". Then there is the Remington and BB +P loads, the Remington load is finally available again after nearly 2.5 years of being absent from dealer shelves. I bought a chunk of it the other day and while it is not terribly expensive for a carry load, it really made me rethink revolvers. I love wheelguns, but during ammo crunches, .38 and .357 magnum are tough to find, especially high quality carry loads, the BB stuff was more available, but still pretty difficult to find. Again, fortunately, I had a pretty good stash, but just enough to make it through this crunch.

My point is - Despite being hugely popular and moving fast acceptable 9mm ammo could be found in the crunch and because it is less expensive a larger supply can be stocked between these crunches. At one point, I started getting low on .38 ammo and realized I needed to switch to a 9mm for carry and practice, because that was a huge supply of ammo I had. If, instead, I had only ever bought one caliber, instead of splitting my budget between two or three or four calibers, I would had a much larger stock of that single caliber, that I barely made a dent in, during the ammo crunch. As it is, I had to switch carry guns and calibers in the middle.

So at some level, sometimes it is a pretty big hassle. There is something to be said for diversity, giving you caliber options (e.g., I think it was Tam that bought a .357 Sig M&P, because .357 Sig was actually available) but the reverse is also true, if you just need one caliber, you can stock up until your cramming ammo into the nooks and crannies of your house and ride out the end of times. It depends on how you want to roll.

Edit: As JC pointed out - Also, if you have OCD with a tendency towards symmetry it also makes you tweak a lot less. I won't even pretend like my OCD doesn't call out hard when I think, "Instead of having two rifle calibers, two shotgun gauges, and three pistol calibers. I could have one, one, and one - And then all the boxes would stack perfectly in the ammo cans and I could have neat stacks of ammo cans in the closet, instead of variously different shapes ammunition cartons, or ammo cans with different calibers in them...

-Rob

JAD

08-02-2014, 09:06 AM

Y'all are messed up. When you start worrying about how much j frame practice ammo costs, you better start putting money aside for the elbow rebuild.

RevolverRob

08-02-2014, 09:11 AM

Y'all are messed up. When you start worrying about how much j frame practice ammo costs, you better start putting money aside for the elbow rebuild.

HA! A valid point. I think about having seven or eight revolvers to feed when I think about cost, not what a J-Frame costs.

-Rob

JR1572

08-02-2014, 09:15 AM

I still want a S&W 940 or a SP101 in 9mm. Even if I have to buy a ton of moon clips and use them only one time each.

JR1572

Alpha Sierra

08-02-2014, 09:27 AM

So, have you tried finding decently priced .38 Special 158-grain FN/RN/LRN/whatever practice ammo lately? It is available, but not at a price that won't make you a bit green to spend. I had a nice stash to tide me through the last ammo crunch - But at the end it is time to stock back up and suddenly, the cash saved buying 9mm is actually pretty significant, as in "Here buy another half-case of 9mm with the savings.". Then there is the Remington and BB +P loads, the Remington load is finally available again after nearly 2.5 years of being absent from dealer shelves. I bought a chunk of it the other day and while it is not terribly expensive for a carry load, it really made me rethink revolvers. I love wheelguns, but during ammo crunches, .38 and .357 magnum are tough to find, especially high quality carry loads, the BB stuff was more available, but still pretty difficult to find. Again, fortunately, I had a pretty good stash, but just enough to make it through this crunch.

My point is - Despite being hugely popular and moving fast acceptable 9mm ammo could be found in the crunch and because it is less expensive a larger supply can be stocked between these crunches. At one point, I started getting low on .38 ammo and realized I needed to switch to a 9mm for carry and practice, because that was a huge supply of ammo I had. If, instead, I had only ever bought one caliber, instead of splitting my budget between two or three or four calibers, I would had a much larger stock of that single caliber, that I barely made a dent in, during the ammo crunch. As it is, I had to switch carry guns and calibers in the middle.
I am a reloader and I reload in volume, so fortunately I don't have your concerns.

At no time have I ever had less than 1K of loaded .38 Special practice rounds at one time. I was never unable to secure bullets or powder during the last couple of panics. Primers got a little dicey but I made do.

My reloads are full power 158 gr cast SWCs at 850 - 900 fps and they will work as defensive loads if that is all I have. No, I don't subscribe to the "reloads are evil for self defense" nonsense. In fact, the next 500 rounds in my rotation are all loaded with Speer 158 gr lead SWC hollow points. They are an exact analog of the FBI load and I would carry them for self defense without hesitation.

Since my practice ammo performs exactly like my defensive ammo, I have no need to burn though factory loaded carry ammo. So I did not need to worry about finding it during the panic.

I also have at least 1K of 9x19 reloads also loaded to the same MV as your typical defensive ammo using copper plated cast bullets. However, all of them are RN or RNFP so not much use as defensive loads in a pinch. For that reason my next bullet purchase will be hollow pointed plated bullets.

Again, with 9 mm, I don't burn any defensive factory ammo except to function check new pistols. Once that is established, reloads are what I shoot.

rob_s

08-02-2014, 09:40 AM

I started down this rabbit hole when I decided I wanted a j-frame. What I arrived at was that, except for shooting and replacing the carry ammo in the gun once or twice a year, I wasn't going to shoot the stupid thing anyway, thereby meaning I can buy one box of 20, 25, or 50 rounds and be well prepared for several cycles.

The one hitch in that giddyup was when I ran dry during this current ammo crisis and, being a recoil pussy, couldn't find any acceptable non +P ammo. At that pint having the same caliber might have been nice, but I don't know I that I'd want to shoot my 9mm +P Gold Dot carry ammo from an aluminum j-frame either.

I do still need to install the lock removal kit and sort out my laser grips. I've had the gun for probably three years though and still not done it, so you can see what a high priority the I-frame is for me, despite the fact that it's carried more than any other gun in my safe.

RevolverRob

08-02-2014, 09:50 AM

I am a reloader and I reload in volume, so fortunately I don't have your concerns.

So, I have learned something over the last couple of years. If you've been reloading for a decade or two or three, you typically have not only the equipment but the supplies readily available to roll plenty of ammo, and thus tend to fall out of touch with what we might think of as the realities of new and modern gun ownership. My father never reloaded and so it wasn't a skill I became interested in, until later in life, by the time I became interested, I realized the cost of entry for reloading is far too high. Sure, I can roll my own .38s for about $0.10-0.12/round - It will take 4000 rounds of ammunition for the equipment to pay for itself. If I load an average of 100 rounds an hour in my "free" time (I know I can potentially load, more, but that creates a higher cost of entry), I am into this venture 40 hours, to "break-even".

That's if you don't value your free time, but I do value my free time. I can spend my free time not reloading, but instead working on prototypes, marketing, or doing some consulting for a friend and working on putting more money in my pockets. If I just value my free time spent in these areas at half of what my paid work-time is worth, the cost of loaded ammunition triples to $.30-.35 a round and suddenly it's more expensive to reload than buy factory ammo. Now, my situation is unique, but actually not really - Your time is extremely valuable, but most folks view their personal labor as free, which is a real flaw in this world, but that's up to you.

That's not to mention the really significant barriers to setting up reloading equipment today, where components are in very short supply and things like Hazmat fees are increasing your costs pretty dramatically. You might have had enough components to tide you through the end of days - But I do not and if I want to acquire them today, I will still be waiting, without ammunition.

I guess my point is, "Just reload." Is about as poor a solution as any to this problem and ignores the significant and real problems associated with doing such a thing (i.e., it's easier said than done).

-Rob

Chuck Haggard

08-02-2014, 09:56 AM

One of the great things about a J frame with laser grips is the you have a free SIRT revolver for dry fire work.

45dotACP

08-02-2014, 10:05 AM

I understand the 9mm revolver because if you shoot autos a lot, that makes sense. That said, handloading is really the strongest point of a revolver to me. You always have the same amount of brass so it makes it really a natural thing. And .38 special can be loaded for uber cheap.

Pretty much the only reason I keep that old dog of a model 64 around. It seriously got to the point where I stopped shooting .22 and loaded up light loads for .38 and spent less than I would have spent if I had bought .22

With my semi-automatics, I would have had to worry about such silly things as "cycling the slide" and such related nonsense

:cool:

I totally get that some people don't want to spend the time involved in handloading. I really didn't even start until I bought a .41 magnum. And then spending 45 bucks for a box of 20 became a non starter. It became phenomonally cheaper to feed that revolver. It helped a little for .45 as well, but for 9mm...well I still load 9mm, because a box of dies is only 40 bucks, but I don't load it nearly as often because sometimes the juice doesn't seem worth the squeeze, and I'm still playing with my .45 more than I do my 9mm

Alpha Sierra

08-02-2014, 10:05 AM

So, I have learned something over the last couple of years. If you've been reloading for a decade or two or three, you typically have not only the equipment but the supplies readily available to roll plenty of ammo, and thus tend to fall out of touch with what we might think of as the realities of new and modern gun ownership. My father never reloaded and so it wasn't a skill I became interested in, until later in life, by the time I became interested, I realized the cost of entry for reloading is far too high. Sure, I can roll my own .38s for about $0.10-0.12/round - It will take 4000 rounds of ammunition for the equipment to pay for itself. If I load an average of 100 rounds an hour in my "free" time (I know I can potentially load, more, but that creates a higher cost of entry), I am into this venture 40 hours, to "break-even".

That's if you don't value your free time, but I do value my free time. I can spend my free time not reloading, but instead working on prototypes, marketing, or doing some consulting for a friend and working on putting more money in my pockets. If I just value my free time spent in these areas at half of what my paid work-time is worth, the cost of loaded ammunition triples to $.30-.35 a round and suddenly it's more expensive to reload than buy factory ammo. Now, my situation is unique, but actually not really - Your time is extremely valuable, but most folks view their personal labor as free, which is a real flaw in this world, but that's up to you.

That's not to mention the really significant barriers to setting up reloading equipment today, where components are in very short supply and things like Hazmat fees are increasing your costs pretty dramatically. You might have had enough components to tide you through the end of days - But I do not and if I want to acquire them today, I will still be waiting, without ammunition.

I guess my point is, "Just reload." Is about as poor a solution as any to this problem and ignores the significant and real problems associated with doing such a thing (i.e., it's easier said than done).

-Rob
I don't think you know how easily and cheaply one can get setup to reload a basic pistol cartridge. In fact, I know you don't. You can max out your credit card at Midway, or you can buy most of it used out of ebay or local gun club classifieds.

As far as free time goes, it takes very little of my free time to do what I need to do to stay loaded up. If my time needs were more pressing I'd step up to a turret press and quadruple my rate. But thanks for implying that I have no life outside of reloading ammo. You could not be more mistaken.

I just told you that finding components locally was never a real problem. Even powder and primers. That means I don't pay hazmat fees for anything. I get that you don't like reloading. But since you don't do it, your objections are based on what you think reloading is like, not on what it really is like.

RevolverRob

08-02-2014, 10:18 AM

I don't think you know how easily and cheaply one can get setup to reload a basic pistol cartridge. In fact, I know you don't. You can max out your credit card at Midway, or you can buy most of it used out of ebay or local gun club classifieds.

As far as free time goes, it takes very little of my free time to do what I need to do to stay loaded up. If my time needs were more pressing I'd step up to a turret press and quadruple my rate. But thanks for implying that I have no life outside of reloading ammo. You could not be more mistaken.

I just told you that finding components locally was never a real problem. Even powder and primers. That means I don't pay hazmat fees for anything. I get that you don't like reloading. But since you don't do it, your objections are based on what you think reloading is like, not on what it really is like.

Ah the old anecdotal argument - If someone doesn't match my experience, they must be an idiot who has no idea. Well, tell me friend, when I've checked every gunshop in Austin, TX, called stacks of friends, and checked all the local classifieds for powder, primers, and bullets, where will I find them? I could order a mold and make my own bullets, right? On the deck on the outside of my second floor apartment...Sometimes other's realities do not match your own.

No, I think you want to be right and are upset that some folks don't view your experience as the correct one for them, not that I lack a clear understanding of costs associated with reloading. I happen to have reloading equipment and I've done some reloading and purchased components from friends, gunshops, and even mail order when I needed them. I know what my costs were associated with this and I know what I value my time at - And at the end of the day when someone says, "Just reload." I know that is not a viable solution for everyone and instead try to find reasonable solutions for folks who might have that problem.

Hence - Why the idea of 9mm revolvers is appealing. 9mm is dirt cheap, relatively, and if you can't or won't reload, it makes a logical sense if you need/want a revolver for specific functions, and want to have inexpensive ammo. Or if you have a cross-section of ammunition you want to use or a specific load you want to use. Of course the problem is, 9mm revolvers are largely impractical due to mechanical issues.

-Rob

08-02-2014, 10:35 AM

I have an SP101 in 9mm. Eh! Kicks hard and has sticky extraction. :( Even the good moon clips from Moonclips.com are floppy. The moonclips from the factory will let rounds fall out. 9mm revolver is a nice idea, but nobody has done it right yet.

I prefer a 9mm semi auto for my pocket pistol. My PM9 works OK.

Alpha Sierra

08-02-2014, 10:55 AM

No, I think you want to be right and are upset that some folks don't view your experience as the correct one for them,

Honestly don't care what you think or do at this point.

Chuck Haggard

08-02-2014, 12:14 PM

Why don't we keep this discussion a little more factual and a little less personal?

rob_s

08-02-2014, 12:51 PM

Honestly don't care what you think or do at this point.

Of course you don't, because he's right.

You enjoy and find benefit in reloading, he doesn't. Why can't that be enough for you? Why do you need so desperately for him to agree with you.

For myself, I tried reloading, with a free press and a boatload of free supplies, and I would rather stick hot pokers in my eyes than stand there mindlessly pulling the handle like a monkey. Fortunately, I make enough at my day job to buy all the ammo I need and enjoy my free time doing other things. Yes, sometimes the market gets ahead if me with oddball calibers like .38, but...

To tie this back to the discussion, this is why many of us would love to have a functional 9mm lightweight revolver.

John Hearne

08-02-2014, 01:04 PM

If you're going to run a 9mm J-frame, it might as well be a 9x23. It's supposed to be very "invigorating."

Tamara

08-02-2014, 03:12 PM

One of the great things about a J frame with laser grips is the you have a free SIRT revolver for dry fire work.

Quoted For Truth.

JR1572

08-02-2014, 04:32 PM

Well, I guess my plans for a 9mm j-frame have been crushed by the no-lock 442 I just snagged from a co-worker...

JR1572

41magfan

08-02-2014, 07:16 PM

This is kind of what I was referring to when I said a “short cylindered” J-Frame chambered for the 9mm FEDERAL (rimmed) cartridge.

Back in the day, a pistolsmith by the name of Fred Schmidt made a couple a hundred wadcutter designated PPC guns. The idea behind the short cylinder was to minimize the "jump" from cylinder to barrel with short wadcutter loads. Most of Fred's guns - in ANY configuration - would shoot an inch or so at 50 yards so the idea never really got traction.

A Smith & Wesson J-Frame with a similar cylinder configuration, chambered for a rimmed 9mm cartridge like the defunct 9mm FEDERAL , would certainly answer the call for a working small revolver chambered for something between the .38 Special and .357 Magnum offerings.

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/673/uLB40G.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/ipuLB40Gj)
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/538/w7G5Jt.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/eyw7G5Jtj)

JR1572

08-02-2014, 07:25 PM

Tamara

08-02-2014, 07:39 PM

After looking at that rimmed 9mm case...

That rimmed 9mm case will chamber handily in an Iver Johnson .38 S&W top-break, which is why you'll never see a commercially successful "rimmed 9mm Parabellum" round.

LSP972

08-02-2014, 09:21 PM

Yes, and add to that it would negate the whole idea behind this… ammunition commonality.

BTW, 41magfan… 1"/1.5" at 50 yards, from the Ransom Rest and using Federal or Remington match lot ammunition, was the accepted standard for bull guns back in that day. If yours (as a maker) didn't do that, nobody paid a lot of attention to you or your guns.

Schmidt had the right idea, but it still all came down to cylinder timing; if that was off in the slightest, the bullets would shave a bit and accuracy was negatively affected.

That's why guys, once they figured out the proper hand width for their revolver, had their extractors hard-chromed or Armolloyed.

.

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MGW

08-02-2014, 09:59 PM

I think a 9mm J that worked would be very useful. Just hasn't been done I guess.

I love shooting J frames. First time out with my new 442 Pro I burned through 125 rounds. Had a blast shooting steel plates and then doing step backs to 50 yards. I didn't mind the recoil at all...I thought. My elbows were a little sore the next day though. Sucks getting older.

Edit because I started thinking about the comments about the cost of 38. I think I'm going to start reloading again so I can shoot the J more.

I also started thinking about the guy on the m4 forum that's doing the "Project break my J frame" thread. I don't remember how many rounds he has put through his 642. Seems like he was approaching 5,000? I wonder how much he's spent on ammo for the project?

LSP972

08-03-2014, 09:55 AM

I didn't mind the recoil at all...I thought. My elbows were a little sore the next day though. Sucks getting older.

Stand by; your wrists are next.

If you are serious about reloading for your J frame, might I offer a bit of advice? Don't skimp on your bullets. Bullets cast from wheelweights and lubed with Alox, etc., are certainly cheap and work well. But spending a bit more on properly-coated bullets (like Donnie Miculek's BayouBullets) or jacketed bullets will save you much grief when it comes time to clean your beast… especially if it has a titanium cylinder. Those things are delicate and simply can not be cleaned with any sort of aggressive technique/material.

I carry a M-360PD with bobbed hammer every day as a secondary. Even with the lightest of bunny fart reloads, this thing is not fun or comfortable to shoot. Yet I do it, in the spirit of "practice with what you use". I will admit to shooting my old M-60, purchased in 1978, almost as much because its a lot more fun and a lot less painful.

Anyway, by using coated or jacketed bullets in my reloads, clean-up time is much easier. Some years ago, I came across a huge quantity of Remington 110gr JHP .38 bullets at a very cheap price, so I snarfed them. I'm getting low, and plan to replenish with Donnie's bullet. The only decision is, go light or heavy (135gr or 160gr?)?

If you do run light loads, your brass will last practically forever. But you probably knew that. Four grains of N320 with that Remington 110gr JHP is incredibly clean; I'll go several hundred rounds before I even think about cleaning those J frames. Of course, VV powder is feloniously expensive and hard to find, but a pound goes a long way with these light amounts.

.

MGW

08-03-2014, 09:52 PM

Those coated bullets look very interesting. Thanks for the info!

warpedcamshaft

08-04-2014, 01:15 AM

But not owning and occasionally shooting a 1911 in .45 and a wheelgun pretty much makes you a communist.

Best gun forum comment ever...

LSP972

08-04-2014, 07:33 AM

Best gun forum comment ever...

Without a doubt; I'm still chuckling over that one.

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Jeep

08-04-2014, 12:18 PM

Without a doubt; I'm still chuckling over that one.

.

And, of course, it is obviously true. Communists almost always buy their 1911's chambered in .38 Super, and scorn revolvers as "decadent objects for the bourgeois class."

Stephanie B

08-04-2014, 07:30 PM

I've always thought a short cylindered J-Frame chambered for the 9mm FEDERAL (rimmed) cartridge would be the cat's meow.

But why? If you're going to have a revolver cartridge on hand, why not stick with the .38 special?

LSP972

08-04-2014, 07:49 PM

But why? If you're going to have a revolver cartridge on hand, why not stick with the .38 special?

Exactly.

.

Haraise

08-05-2014, 06:31 AM

Exactly.

.

Shorter for easier reloads? Availability of modern bullet designs (big reason I'd be interested)? Lighter cylinder as it's shorter?

Tamara

08-05-2014, 06:52 AM

Shorter for easier reloads? Availability of modern bullet designs (big reason I'd be interested)? Lighter cylinder as it's shorter?

Rimmed 9mm will likely never be sold again because it makes legal departments stroke out.

The shorter cylinder argument is intriguing but has thus far been a commercial flop. You could probably find a used Taurus 905IB, one of the early ones with a short cylinder, have the rear of the cylinder dressed, and then load your own 9mm Federal brass.

( 9mm Federal Story via Grant Cunningham: http://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/search?q=%229mm+federal%22 )

Chuck Haggard

08-05-2014, 08:02 AM

.38 Super shoots pretty decent from a wheel gun most of the time. Not that I would advise such shenanigans, but so I've heard..............

Tamara

08-05-2014, 08:14 AM

.38 Super shoots pretty decent from a wheel gun most of the time. Not that I would advise such shenanigans, but so I've heard..............

Oh, gawd, we had this dude that used to hang around the shop when I worked at Randy's who agonized over whether he could shoot .38 Super in his Taurus Tracker. I mean, he was in there for days trying to decide whether to buy a couple boxes of the stuff, and working through his decision making process aloud, using Shannon and me for sounding boards. "Dude, it'll be fine, but why?"

"Suppose I can't get .357?"

"I'm not picturing a situation where you couldn't get .357 but .38 Super was all over the place..."

JAD

08-05-2014, 08:18 AM

"I'm not picturing a situation where you couldn't get .357 but .38 Super was all over the place..."

Well, if he was locked in my basement. But then, he'd have bigger things to worry about.

Chuck Haggard

08-05-2014, 08:32 AM

41magfan

08-05-2014, 09:58 AM

Shorter for easier reloads? Availability of modern bullet designs (big reason I'd be interested)? Lighter cylinder as it's shorter?

Conceived as a black powder cartridge, the .38 Special case length is a waste of space with smokeless powders. The 9mm (rimmed or Parabellum) offers a 10-15% velocity gain over the .38 Special with most bullet weights and that's WITHOUT the benefit of a 1/2" longer barrel that you'd get with a short cylinder configuration.

Chuck Haggard

08-05-2014, 10:06 AM

http://www.magtechammunition.com/sitepages/pid103.php?productId=507&ltemplate=details&templateId=14&pageId=103&search=details

Tamara

08-05-2014, 10:07 AM

Conceived as a black powder cartridge, the .38 Special case length is a waste of space with smokeless powders. The 9mm (rimmed or Parabellum) offers a 10-15% velocity gain over the .38 Special with most bullet weights and that's WITHOUT the benefit of a 1/2" longer barrel that you'd get with a short cylinder configuration.

Yes, there are tons of advantages to a shorter, rimmed 9x19 but but it's all just so much talkin' to hear our heads roar in a world with hundreds of thousands of .38 S&W top-breaks that are lawsuits waiting to happen if there's easily available 35,000psi ammo. Hell, that's part of the reason .38 and .357 are as long as they are in the first place.

Chuck Haggard

08-05-2014, 10:14 AM

Yes, there are tons of advantages to a shorter, rimmed 9x19 but but it's all just so much talkin' to hear our heads roar in a world with hundreds of thousands of .38 S&W top-breaks that are lawsuits waiting to happen if there's easily available 35,000psi ammo. Hell, that's part of the reason .38 and .357 are as long as they are in the first place.

Yup.

My direct observation of the aftermath of dropping a .38 Super into such a gun is that it instantly converts it from a handgun to a hand grenade.

41magfan

08-05-2014, 10:20 AM

The vast majority of gun forum content is "head roar" ..... I was simply responding to the questions posed by others.

Tamara

08-05-2014, 10:38 AM

The vast majority of gun forum content is "head roar" .....

Heh. Fair enough. :)

Chuck Whitlock

08-05-2014, 11:59 AM

Y'all are thinking backwards.

1. J-frame BUG
2. S&W M52 main gun
3. Stock up on 148 gr. target wadcutters
4. Problem solved!!

:cool:

rsa-otc

08-05-2014, 12:02 PM

.38 Super will fire in almost anything chambered in a ".38" caliber round, that is a center-fire, made since revolver cylinders were bored through. It might get exciting when you drop the hammer, but it will in fact chamber and fire.

Recently happened on our range. After every company range session we have a open door policy, employees may bring their personally owed weapons and ammo and I will supply the targets and my time for them to play.

One team steps up to the line and starts shooting and the female partner who was shooting with a J frame stepped off the line shaking her shooting hand complaining about the recoil. Her partner is saying he didn't know what she was complaining about it's just .38s. I stepped in and relieved them of the gun cracked the cylinder and to my shock and horror I observe .38 Super head stamping staring up at me. Fortunately for all involved when I checked the chambering of the gun, it was a .357 magnum. No obvious damage was done. It seems they had stopped by Cabala's on the way in and all they had was 38 super ammo. The male partner assumed that since it said 38 on the box everything was cool. I then had to explain the origins of 38 super and how dangerous it could have been if the snubby or another revolver had been rated for .38 spl. only.

New rule for the range, I vet all firearm and ammo combinations before anyone shoots, it may be their weapon and person who is damaged but it's my headache and paperwork should something happen.

LSP972

08-05-2014, 01:26 PM

Shorter for easier reloads? Availability of modern bullet designs (big reason I'd be interested)? Lighter cylinder as it's shorter?

Easier reloads? Possibly. But there is a point of diminishing returns there; try single-loading .45 ACPs into a revolver cylinder (especially a single action) and you'll see what I mean.

Modern bullet designs? It doesn't get any better than Gold Dot. And the 135gr +P .38 Gold Dot is loaded specifically for snubbies, to minimize muzzle flash.

Lighter cylinder? Sure. Lighter enough to be noticed? Doubtful. You want light, cough up the bucks for an S&W titanium-cylinder AirLite. There's nothing else of comparable quality that even comes close in terms of lightness.

.

Tom Duffy

08-05-2014, 03:18 PM

Y'all are thinking backwards.

1. J-frame BUG
2. S&W M52 main gun
3. Stock up on 148 gr. target wadcutters
4. Problem solved!!

:cool:

Or, how about this for a consensus:
1. 9mm revolvers don't make sense.
2. 38 Special +P is superior to 9mm (maybe not a consensus, but my prejudice :) )
3. I want to shoot a single caliber for logistical reasons.
4. Therefore, someone needs to make a 38 Special semi-auto.

Chuck Whitlock

08-05-2014, 03:28 PM

4. Therefore, someone needs to make a 38 Special semi-auto.

S&W M52 not to your liking? If target wadcutters just won't do:

http://www.coonaninc.com/index.php/cPath,5

I think they have spring kits for .38 Special.

Haraise

08-05-2014, 03:45 PM

Easier reloads? Possibly. But there is a point of diminishing returns there; try single-loading .45 ACPs into a revolver cylinder (especially a single action) and you'll see what I mean.

Modern bullet designs? It doesn't get any better than Gold Dot. And the 135gr +P .38 Gold Dot is loaded specifically for snubbies, to minimize muzzle flash.

Lighter cylinder? Sure. Lighter enough to be noticed? Doubtful. You want light, cough up the bucks for an S&W titanium-cylinder AirLite. There's nothing else of comparable quality that even comes close in terms of lightness.

.

Points one and two are basicly saying 'it's better but I don't care,' and point two is just easily shown false by HST testing. Try again.

Tamara

08-05-2014, 04:01 PM

Tom Duffy

08-05-2014, 05:28 PM

S&W M52 not to your liking? If target wadcutters just won't do:

http://www.coonaninc.com/index.php/cPath,5

I think they have spring kits for .38 Special.

Well, I was thinking more like a Glock for reliability and price. That's certainly an interesting gun. I didn't know something like that existed. My post was a little tongue in cheek. I have two 357s, two 45 ACPs, and a 9mm. I've long ago given up on the whole "shooting one caliber" thing.

LSP972

08-05-2014, 05:28 PM

Points one and two are basicly saying 'it's better but I don't care,' and point two is just easily shown false by HST testing. Try again.

No, you try again. I most certainly am not saying "its better but I don't care"… short cartridges are not easy to load quickly/individually into a revolver cylinder, and your use of the word "testing" is exactly that; the HST bullet has not been around long enough to establish a solid track record in meat. I agree that its probably one of the best we've seen to date, judging from conversations I've had with other examiners in other parts of the country- particularly the southwest; but I have personally examined quite a few Gold Dots removed from corpses, and it works (stops the fight) just about every time.

.

RevolverRob

08-05-2014, 05:38 PM

You could try an Airlite Ti-cylinder J-frame shooting midrange .357 Magnum and seeing how you like it first. The perceived recoil difference between it and the gun you're describing shooting +P 9mm would not be noticeable to the human hand.

This - It's not as though you change the caliber and physics suddenly stops applying.

A .38 Super J-Frame would hurt as much or more than a .357 Magnum J-Frame.

Edit: And I've totally thought of mothballing my 9mm autos and buying a nice clean M52-2 and a Coonan so I only have to buy .38s and .357s.

-Rob

LSP972

08-05-2014, 05:45 PM

A .38 Super J-Frame would hurt as much or more than a .357 Magnum J-Frame.

Dunno know about "more"… a full-patch .357 out of a Ti-Scan AirLite is pretty damn vicious.

.

Sigfan26

08-05-2014, 06:24 PM

My boss has an S&W 940 that's magnaported, and he still says his 340 with .38+p is lighter and more pleasant to shoot.

RevolverRob

08-05-2014, 06:43 PM

Dunno know about "more"… a full-patch .357 out of a Ti-Scan AirLite is pretty damn vicious.

.

You're right - a +P Super is not quite as hot as a full-bore .357, but I doubt they were would be much more difference. Not enough that I'd make a habit of firing either.

-Rob

Sigfan26

08-05-2014, 07:17 PM

Also, saw a little old lady come through at the range I work at several years back. She complained that her new S&W 642 was misfiring. The gun looked good. No outward signs of damage (function check was flawless). Asked to see the ammunition... She went through 25 rounds of Winchester 38 Super+P! Told her that she had grabbed the wrong ammunition. She said she had just bought the gun and that was what the guy at Cabelas had grabbed for her when he sold her the gun.

Lester Polfus

08-06-2014, 01:02 AM

This is an idea I really wanted to work. A friend of mind has a real deal, Smith and Wesson 940, and I wrung it out pretty good over a couple of range sessions, to see if I wanted to either come up with the cash for one on Gunbroker, or arm wrestle him for his.

Here's a some observations:

It ran. I think his went back to Smith for a chamber polish at some point. We didn't run more than 50 rounds in a range session, but had no sticky extraction.

It's an all steel J-frame, so it's heavy. I divide carrying a gun into two situations: when I can cover my waistband with an un-tucked shirt or another garment, and times when I can't. If I can cover my waistband, I can carry a G19, although I admit I sometimes get lazy and AIWB a J-frame. If I can't cover my waistband, I pocket carry an Airweight 638. The all steel 940 is heavier than what I care to pocket carry. It really causes some sag issues.

Reloading with moon clips is fast. I can't find my timer data, but it was far and away faster than even a speed loader, much less a speed strip.

Carrying moon clips for a J-frame creates exactly the same problem as carrying a speedloader for a J-frame. The reload is harder to conceal than the gun. A speedloader or moon clip case on your belt is really conspicuous. You can tuck a J-frame in pocket, but that's a bad way to carry a speed loader, and especially a bad way to carry a moonclip, because....

Moonclips are fragile. They bend. Easily. And once they bend the gun is tied up. Either the cylinder won't close, or if it does, it drags when you pull the trigger.

As a primary, the 9mm J-frame just didn't make sense to me. It would have some merit as a backup gun to a 9mm autoloader. You could carry a cylinder full in a moonclip, eject that, and feed it from a pistol mag, slowly. But after THAT cylinder was done, you'd be punching empties out with a pen.

I don't really think 9mm out of a 1 7/8" bbl offers any real advantage over the quality .38 Special +P ammo out there, and certainly there are mid-range .357 loads that would out perform it. The speed of a moonclip reload is certainly an advantage, but only if you can accept the fragility of moonclips, and the difficulty in carrying them. That leaves the fact that you have ammo commonality with a 9mm autoloader, which just doesn't seem worth it to me.

LSP972

08-06-2014, 04:44 AM

This ^ should be a sticky. It covers ALL the bases regarding this idea/concept, in simple language with logical (and true) conclusions.

And your comment about moonclips and speedloaders… "The reload is harder to conceal than the gun." YES, a thousand times yes. So many times I… well, never mind.

Excellent post, Lester. Very well done.

.

MGW

08-06-2014, 09:22 AM

I have a 442 Pro with moon clips and so far they are a pain in the butt. The rounds wobble around in the clip to much making it difficult to get them all lined up so they will drop into the cylinder. They work a lot better with FMJ but not so great with HPs.

All I have are the stock Smith clips. Maybe I need a different brand?

Edit to add I've been experimenting with speed loaders because of a long thread on another forum. J Frame in strong side front pocket in a Blackhawk pocket holster. The speed loader sits under the trigger guard of the pistol outside the holster. It shows promise. Won't work with a rigid holster.

MGW

08-06-2014, 09:32 AM

Also, I would like moon clips to work because I would like to try the Del Fatti PMC moon clip carrier set up the same way I'm working with the speedloader. http://www.delfatti.com/PMC%20Page.html

Sorry for the thread drift.

LSP972

08-06-2014, 10:06 AM

Sorry for the thread drift.

No thread drift that I can see. Different strokes for different folks. I've been carrying a J frame for 35+ years and never had much luck with speedloaders carried as a reload (what little I saw of the moon clips by troopers bringing their 940s to the range cured me of any interest in those). Most of my pals/peers have similar experience. That doesn't mean it won't work; and I have no doubt that there is some leather/accessories around that can make it work better. Discussing it is how we learn of such things.

I will say, though, that you're working hard to make it work...;)

.

Tamara

08-06-2014, 10:12 AM

Easier reloads? Possibly. But there is a point of diminishing returns there; try single-loading .45 ACPs into a revolver cylinder (especially a single action) and you'll see what I mean.

Not necessarily the same thing, though, when you're talking about loading from a speedloader or moonclip (see linkscoach's gripes about his moonclipped 442 in .38 Spl below; the longer rounds are a bigger pain.)

Also, the shorter rounds do chamber and eject faster by the sort of fractions of a second that are important to gamers, which is why you can get .38 Short Colt brass again (because ICORE.)

Lester Polfus

08-06-2014, 10:56 AM

Tamara

08-06-2014, 11:23 AM

LSP972

08-06-2014, 01:20 PM

LSP972,

FWIW, reading my post above, wow... it reads a lot more "gun aspie" than I meant it to. :o Imagine it read in a "Professor Frink (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtP1eyF8LgI)" voice from The Simpsons.

No worries.;)

Perhaps I'm looking at this from the wrong perspective. I get what you're saying about quicker ejection; but I must be getting fumble-fingered in my old age, because I've been shooting my .45ACP Vaquero and a friend's 1917 (sans clips) a lot lately, and the short/fat cartridges don't single-load easily... particularly in the Vaquero. RNL and ball aren't too bad, but the 185 JSWC bullets in the bullseye ammo I'm using certainly is. Half-moon clips, of course, are no biggee to use. Inserting/removing cases to/from the clips, OTOH, is a four-star PITA even with the tool he has.

And I remember loading a few of those 940s singly (without the clips), fumbling with individual 9mm cartridges. The longer .38 cartridges just were easier to manipulate, period.

The above is what I was basing my observations in this thread on. Competition guys, not concerned with concealment, can deal with it in numerous ways... but I thought we were talking about a concealed-carry snubbie shooting .380 Long Rifle here.:cool:

.

Jeep

08-06-2014, 07:46 PM

No thread drift that I can see. Different strokes for different folks. I've been carrying a J frame for 35+ years and never had much luck with speedloaders carried as a reload (what little I saw of the moon clips by troopers bringing their 940s to the range cured me of any interest in those). Most of my pals/peers have similar experience. That doesn't mean it won't work; and I have no doubt that there is some leather/accessories around that can make it work better. Discussing it is how we learn of such things.

I will say, though, that you're working hard to make it work...;)

.

I've given up on trying to rapidly load j-frames. My current philosophy is that I'll (sometimes) carry reloads for autos, but not for j-frames, and if the zombies get me when I run out of ammo, they get me. I've noticed, though, that there are very, very, very, very few documented incidents of a civilian being overrun by zombies after running out of ammo.

Haraise

08-06-2014, 08:31 PM

I'm mainly just interested here because of trying to find a revolver I like. A 9mm, moonclip J Frame in all steel with XS Big Dot sights and an awesome DAO internal hammer trigger is the most appealing wheelgun I've seen. The 940 snubby seems to have about the same FPS as a Glock 26, so performance should be pretty darn good for HST.

(But until someone comes out with an eight shot Mateba with top break, auto eject, safety and SAO... it all seems a waste of what a wheelgun could be.)

Chuck Haggard

08-06-2014, 09:01 PM

A four round speed strip is really easy to carry, and can get at least two rounds into the gun rather quickly

MGW

08-06-2014, 10:01 PM

I will say, though, that you're working hard to make it work...;)

.

It doesn't FEEL like work.

Rich

08-24-2014, 09:09 AM

I've been told they can have problems .

Rich

08-24-2014, 09:12 AM

A four round speed strip is really easy to carry, and can get at least two rounds into the gun rather quickly

I know a few who carry just 4rds on a speed strip . two rds on each end. They also carry a primary of coarse.

I hope I never have to speed load my M642, well heck I hope I never have to use my primary LOL

LHS

08-31-2014, 12:01 AM

I know a few who carry just 4rds on a speed strip . two rds on each end. They also carry a primary of coarse.

I hope I never have to speed load my M642, well heck I hope I never have to use my primary LOL

I used to carry six rounds on a speed strip as a J frame reload, because more bullets = better, right? After running my 642 in the local IDPA matches, I've whole heartedly converted to five rounds on a six-round strip. It's just so much easier to load under stress.

Wheeler

08-31-2014, 09:17 PM

A four round speed strip is really easy to carry, and can get at least two rounds into the gun rather quickly

I concur, for whatever that's worth. I shot the ugly Model 36 in a IDPA "Carry Gun Only" match and used a HKS 36 and two speed strips. The speed strips worked well, better than I expected for being on the clock and all.

On a slight tangent, I had no idea that do many people that worked in non permissive environments carried full sized blaster. I must really rethink my concealment strategy. [\sarcasm]

Hambo

09-02-2014, 07:41 AM

revolvergeek

11-24-2014, 12:05 PM

The 547 is moon clip-less but I believe it's a k-frame, not J-frame. I'm not sure what barrel lengths were produced either but might be worth some investigation?

I bought a 3" 547 years ago when 9mmP ammo was very cheap as a practice understudy for my 3" 13. The 547 extraction worked as long as the gun was pretty clean, but the HKS speedloaders were problematic with it because, at least with my particular gun, the rounds would not drop into the chambers. I had to release the speedloader and then push them in the rest of the way.

hollywood63

12-20-2014, 08:50 AM

...especially a moonclip-less one.

Fool's errand? Waste of time?

I'm considering rechambering a 642/442, finding a relatively inexpensive 940, or maybe even the CA 9mm pit bull (which seems like a bad idea).

My main reason is that a jframe is ideal for me for certain carry situations, and that I really don't want to get into another caliber outside of the 9mm I already have if I don't need to.

Thoughts?

You mean like this. http://www.taurususa.com/product-details.cfm?id=338&category=Revolver&toggle=&breadcrumbseries=
Don't bash it unless you have one or at least tried one. I EDC with one and it has been flawless.

LSP972

12-20-2014, 09:05 AM

... it has been flawless.

;)

.

Chuck Haggard

12-20-2014, 09:09 AM

Hollywood, how many rounds through the gun is flawless? What kind of accuracy have to gotten from that gun? How long have your carried it?

I used to buy and recommend Taurus handguns, both semi-autos and revolvers, but I can't anymore in good conscience due to the abysmal QC that Taurus has exhibited over the past decade or so. I am not "hating" or "bashing" on Taurus when I am reporting issues with guns that I have owned that were complete junk.

LSP972

12-20-2014, 09:24 AM

I am not "hating" or "bashing" on Taurus when I am reporting issues with guns that I have owned that were complete junk.

Nor I when recounting the issues with multiple dozens of evidence Tauri I have examined.

There are indeed "working" Tauri.

These are over-shadowed by the equally numerous non-working variety.

And, Hollywood... Just for future reference, using the word "flawless" on this forum is like wearing Hunter Orange on a public wildlife area during deer season. IOW, everybody else is likely to take a shot at you...:D

.

coldcase1984

12-20-2014, 11:51 AM

I clicked the Taurus link, and was stunned to find they introduced something goofier than the Curve: a 5-shot .380 ACP revolver. Mercy!

hollywood63

12-20-2014, 12:39 PM

Hollywood, how many rounds through the gun is flawless?

What kind of accuracy have to gotten from that gun?

How long have your carried it?

Close to a 1000 the only time it failed to fire is because I installed a wolf spring kit since reinstalling the stock springs; "flawless"

From 7 yds 1.5- 2 inches in DA since it's DAO

Close to a year and a half

I was skeptical also but honestly it has been a very reliable revolver if I wasn't sure I wouldn't carry the damn thing. If you search a little you will find issues with all of them. At the beginning of this post the smith was hammered on.

Tamara

12-20-2014, 11:18 PM

In about a three-month period in, out of five Taurus 905IBs we sold, four had to go back to the factory. One of them twice. (It came out of the box with so much endshake that it wouldn't reliably light primers.)

That was years ago and maybe they've fixed them since then, but you know what they say: "Fool me four times, shame on you..." ;)

farscott

12-21-2014, 09:58 AM

9x19 revolvers that I have personally owned and shot.

1) The S&W M547. Mine was the three-inch round-butt version. I never had an issues with extraction, but the trigger was the worst-feeling K-frame ever due to the unusual mainspring that must have been specified to ignite any 9x19 primer. I never shot it more then one hundred rounds in a range session due to hand fatigue. Loading it was slower than loading a .38/.357 K-frame due to a lack of proper speedloaders. Cleaning the cylinder chambers was tedious as the unburned powder had to be removed from underneath the extractor fingers. Finally sold it to someone who wanted it more than I did.

2) SP-101. I have both the 2.5" and 3-1/16" versions. Both have been to Gemini Customs for their version of Weigand's "Tame the Beast" package. Both have the gold bead front sight, which is a huge improvement over the stock Ruger ramp front sight. The longer barreled one is ported. As a belt gun, it is a very nice shooter, and the Ruger moon clips are decently sturdy, allowing for a very fast reload. Nothing to recommend it over the .357 version other than faster reloading, but shooting a 9x19 revolver is fun. The shorter one makes a decent BUG for a 9x19 belt gun, but reloads from a magazine are slow. Not as slow as ejecting the empties not in clips, but slow. Both guns are heavy for 9x19, but muzzle flip is substantial, which is why the longer barreled one is ported.

My conclusions: fun shooters, but not the best choice for defensive work. I keep them for fun shooting and because they are neat conversation pieces.