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EMC
07-27-2014, 12:11 PM
http://www.standard.net/Courts/2014/07/27/Learning-from-the-Stewart-incident-Shooting-summary-released.html

"All of the agents from the Ogden Police Department failed to carry an extra, fully loaded magazine as required by Ogden Police Police 3(N) Use of Force," it states. "Some agents ran dry of ammunition during the gun battle and had to verbally announce that they were out which was most likely heard by the suspect."

No vests, no long guns, missing radios, and no extra magazines. What a fail.

Chuck Haggard
07-27-2014, 02:08 PM
I sat through a debrief given by Randy Watt on this event. It was basically an epic series of leadership failures.

BJJ
07-27-2014, 02:16 PM
Somebody tell Radley Balko these guys weren't navy SEAL wannabes. Oh wait, it doesn't fit his agenda.

KeeFus
07-27-2014, 07:50 PM
No extra ammo; some, including the slain officer were not wearing vests; some had no radios; Sgt. in an arm sling who should have been on medical leave. Am I missing anything else?

Chuck Haggard
07-27-2014, 07:51 PM
No extra ammo; some, including the slain officer were not wearing vests; some had no radios; Sgt. in an arm sling who should have been on medical leave. Am I missing anything else?

There is quite a bit more than that in play on this one.

TR675
07-27-2014, 10:08 PM
The level of attention given to the cop-killer's idiot sister and her talking points blaming the cops just amazes me

farscott
07-28-2014, 06:17 AM
Not an expert on this, but it looks like complacency on many levels, especially at the top, is the real root cause of this. The assessment that was not done before the warrant was served, the belief that it was a low-risk warrant, the lack of equipment, the lack of a check for the tasks being completed by leadership, the lack of coordination et al all speak to mindset.

Chuck Haggard
07-28-2014, 06:53 AM
Denial is a huge human issue in so many areas in life. I often tell people that fortuitous outcomes reinforce bad tactics. That would be in play here.

This team had never had the kitten shot out of them before, so every raid was going to work just like all of the other raids they had been on where nothing bad ever happened.

I had to tell one of my guys the other day, while AARing a call that went sideways on him, that the only reason he was alive was because the bad guy didn't want to kill him. We should not leave that choice up to the bad guy, our job is to take away his vote on the matter.

ford.304
07-28-2014, 07:28 AM
Somebody tell Radley Balko these guys weren't navy SEAL wannabes. Oh wait, it doesn't fit his agenda.

As someone who is a big fan of Balko's work, I'll say it again - I don't care if you show up at my doorstep wearing the Mjolnir armor from Halo and carrying a rocket launcher, as long as you do it during daylight hours, knock politely, and give me time to answer the door like a citizen before you blow the hinges off.

KeeFus
07-28-2014, 07:48 AM
There is quite a bit more than that in play on this one.

I'm sure there was more, I only listed what was mentioned in this (http://www.thespectrum.com/story/news/local/2014/07/19/went-wrong-fatal-ogden-police-shootout/12895425/) article. Leadership tends to focus on the players in an incident rather than point at leadership failures all along that led up to a catastrophe like this. Simple policy changes aren't enough if the leadership doesn't enforce them.

ETA: IMO, policy changes after an incident like this is nothing more than political grandstanding. There were obvious failures before...but no accountability until it went sideways.

Wayne Dobbs
07-28-2014, 08:25 AM
Chuck makes good points here about leadership and poor tactics that work anyway. I'd just say this: every unit/organization is a direct reflection of its commander.

Chuck Haggard
07-28-2014, 10:17 AM
The sad thing is that before Randy Watt retired they had incredibly good leadership at the helm, with high training standards being the expectation. It didn't take long for poor leadership to let "it's all good" take effect after he left. This sort of thing is always the ending result.

Beat Trash
07-28-2014, 02:47 PM
Chuck is making several very astute points.

I see an epic fail in leadership, from all aspects of the chain of command. Right down to the Sergeant in charge of this unit. If they went on a warrant without radios, extra ammunition, no vest, and blowing off any pre-survaliance, it's because they've acted in the same manner in the past and no one called them on it.

Changing policies for your agency after an incident like this is all well and good. But the officers need to buy into why it's a good idea to do these things. And the first line supervision (Sergeants) need to ensure this is happening.

And if anyone is misreading what I am trying to say as a slam on Sergeants, it's not. I've spent the last 13 years as a Relief Sergeant. I have some excellent officers. But I have a duty and a responsibility to ensure they don't do stupid stuff that can set themselves up for an epic fail. Like not having a vest, extra ammo and a radio while serving a warrant!

Chuck Haggard
07-28-2014, 03:04 PM
One of the great failures I see, in LE or .mil, is the failure of first line supervisors to actually supervise. You are no longer "one of the guys", you are the person responsible for making sure standards are met.

That dudes went of a hit with no extra ammo, no vests, no long guns, no pre raid recon, poor pre-planning, a SGT that should have been on light duty but didn't want to be (no idea where his supervisor was....), etc., is a train wreck or repeating failures.

Little things can turn into big things. One guy forgets a magazine, no big deal,,, until it is,,,, and if you let that go then where is the line drawn?

Wayne Dobbs
07-28-2014, 03:19 PM
The two most important roles in a police agency are the Field Training Officers and the Sergeants. Both must be beyond competent at the jobs in all respects and must be true leaders. Otherwise you're only cloning incompetence and mediocrity. Unfortunately, the latter is fairly routine most places.

Coyotesfan97
07-28-2014, 03:31 PM
Denial is a huge human issue in so many areas in life. I often tell people that fortuitous outcomes reinforce bad tactics. That would be in play here.

This team had never had the kitten shot out of them before, so every raid was going to work just like all of the other raids they had been on where nothing bad ever happened.

I had to tell one of my guys the other day, while AARing a call that went sideways on him, that the only reason he was alive was because the bad guy didn't want to kill him. We should not leave that choice up to the bad guy, our job is to take away his vote on the matter.

Man +1 on that. I see bad tactics reinforced because nothing bad happened. We have a defensive tactics instructor who likes to say everything's good until it isn't. He specifically talked about arresting folks by yourself as a bad tactic and don't do it. Shortly after the quarterly training ended solo Officer tries to arrest agitated, uncooperative suspect by himself and gets knocked out. The only reason he's alive is the suspect choose not to kill him.


The sad thing is that before Randy Watt retired they had incredibly good leadership at the helm, with high training standards being the expectation. It didn't take long for poor leadership to let "it's all good" take effect after he left. This sort of thing is always the ending result.

I've met Randy Watt several times. He taught a week long HRT class for us. Several years later he was the evaluator who came out for the NTOA when our Team Commander requested a review so we could look for ways to improve. He is a solid man.

I expect his AAR on this was pretty brutal.

cutter
07-28-2014, 03:46 PM
Randy was one of the best officers I worked with. -1 on making his DCU pants into shorts though.

jnc36rcpd
07-28-2014, 10:05 PM
After over three decades in law enforcement, it doesn't surprise me that command staff seemed to be absolved of responsibility for this. One of the only times I ever recall a member of command staff being disciplined was the Oakland PD traffic stop/SWAT-entry incident about five years ago.

JF1
07-28-2014, 10:27 PM
Those commanders were reinstated.

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Punished-Oakland-cops-to-get-ranks-back-4526988.php

SecondsCount
07-29-2014, 11:10 AM
Denial is a huge human issue in so many areas in life. I often tell people that fortuitous outcomes reinforce bad tactics. That would be in play here.

This team had never had the kitten shot out of them before, so every raid was going to work just like all of the other raids they had been on where nothing bad ever happened.

I had to tell one of my guys the other day, while AARing a call that went sideways on him, that the only reason he was alive was because the bad guy didn't want to kill him. We should not leave that choice up to the bad guy, our job is to take away his vote on the matter.

Excellent post.

There are very few firearms trainers that understand this, even in law enforcement, and military.

cutter
07-29-2014, 02:20 PM
Same in other high risk fields. Read the Challenger reports. Most people confuse luck with skill.

jnc36rcpd
07-29-2014, 05:21 PM
I believe it was the crew at PFC Concepts who suggested that there is a difference between a high risk entry and an opposed entry. You may be successful at high risk operations only until someone is crazy or motivated enough to take a shot at you.

It has been sometime since I read the Oakland AAR and I don't recall the specific roles of the two officers who were reinstated. I did just read Kyle Lamb's "Leadership in the Shadows", he spoke well of Oakland SWAT, but remarked that their commanders has no SWAT experience.

JHC
07-29-2014, 06:22 PM
One of the great failures I see, in LE or .mil, is the failure of first line supervisors to actually supervise. You are no longer "one of the guys", you are the person responsible for making sure standards are met.

That dudes went of a hit with no extra ammo, no vests, no long guns, no pre raid recon, poor pre-planning, a SGT that should have been on light duty but didn't want to be (no idea where his supervisor was....), etc., is a train wreck or repeating failures.

Little things can turn into big things. One guy forgets a magazine, no big deal,,, until it is,,,, and if you let that go then where is the line drawn?

I have a few friends, solid conservative types; but they are IMO carried away with this "militarization" of police theme. They expect LE to conduct themselves like neighborhood policing and all Mayberry polite until more is warranted on arrest warrants. It's just not that simple.

Shellback
07-29-2014, 06:29 PM
As stated earlier, (http://www.nbcnews.com/id/45881535/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/t/utah-officer-killed-others-wounded-shootout/#.U9gtGla4lFI) it sounds like complacency had a lot to do with the outcome.


The team serving the search warrant was made up of officers from the Weber County Sheriff's Office, local police departments and the federal Drug Enforcement Administration...

The unit's commander, So. Ogden City Lt. Darin Parke said that "other than the outcome" the investigation that led to the plan to search Stewart's home was like any other.

KevinB
07-30-2014, 12:51 AM
As stated earlier, (http://www.nbcnews.com/id/45881535/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/t/utah-officer-killed-others-wounded-shootout/#.U9gtGla4lFI) it sounds like complacency had a lot to do with the outcome.

Train for the 2%ers.

It is so much easier to dial down to a diminished threat, than expect everyone to perform above their training and experiences on the day.

I will say that I made a big mistake reading the comments on the posted article. Nothing like reinforcing my belief that most people are simply alive because its illegal to kill them, If this was not a public board I'd offer my comments on what I'd like to see happen to Erna Stewart and her oxygen thieving XXXXXXXXXXX.

peterb
07-30-2014, 08:14 AM
I have a few friends, solid conservative types; but they are IMO carried away with this "militarization" of police theme. They expect LE to conduct themselves like neighborhood policing and all Mayberry polite until more is warranted on arrest warrants. It's just not that simple.

Being prepared and professional is not incompatible with being polite until circumstances dictate otherwise.

Chuck Haggard
07-30-2014, 09:04 AM
I have a few friends, solid conservative types; but they are IMO carried away with this "militarization" of police theme. They expect LE to conduct themselves like neighborhood policing and all Mayberry polite until more is warranted on arrest warrants. It's just not that simple.


I agree. I'm living with that crap almost daily.

Everyone wants Barney and Andy, until the North Hollywood bad guys hit their bank and take their wife and kids hostage, then they want Andy to magically transform into a combination of RoboCop and Delta Force and take those dudes out, but in a nice way, shoot the guns out of their hands and not disturb a hair on the bystanders/hostages heads.

The problem with the US currently is that so many people in the past worked so hard to "make a better life for my kids so they won't have to live through what I had to" that the kids and grandkids are now completely out of touch with reality.

Shellback
07-30-2014, 09:04 AM
These are photos of what the officers were wearing on their raid, taken from this article. (http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/56403563-219/stewart-police-richards-officers.html.csp)

http://archive.sltrib.com/images/2013/0605/stewart_060513~10.jpg

http://archive.sltrib.com/images/2013/0605/stewart_060513~11.jpg

This photo shows an official Weber Morgan Narcotics Strike Force hoody worn by one of the officers as he entered Matthew David Stewart's house in Ogden on January 4, 2012.

http://archive.sltrib.com/images/2013/0605/stewart_060513~16.jpg

Chuck Haggard
07-30-2014, 09:05 AM
^This^ was posted while I was posting.


Cops should never, ever, ever go to someone's house on a warrant dressed like scumbags. Ever.

Shellback
07-30-2014, 09:23 AM
Cops should never, ever, ever go to someone's house on a warrant dressed like scumbags. Ever.

I'm in complete agreement. I am not defending the guy, or trying to justify his actions, but if those dudes came rolling through any one of our doors it'd be a bad day for everyone...

2 more photos of other officers involved. Supposedly, the bearded dude was dressed like this in on the raid as well, picture from court verifying ID.

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSq_AVWcdL-ycKl3j8ZcxjrKeH5UzfXxWqW2Ct_FvSSnF8I8ukaew

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRp1o-4S4eGUkSETDFu7bRnjglz-3Col_1FqyhNpLpHPiTMUQXS

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR694L090jEVbA_v0wq8sSW9-VHKu2yjgJOOPtlRCkuqbMFQqXX

http://www.thenewsstartshere.net/image/2014/07/25/600x_16-9_b0/0714-Matthew-Stewart-Followup-10-7.JPG

Lon
07-30-2014, 09:53 AM
When I worked narcotics, we never went on a warrant where we had to actually knock and announce without properly marked vests or outer clothing. There were a few times where we went WITH someone to their house and they let us in where we stayed in our plain clothes, but that was a rare occasion.

I have a hard time with cases like this. It sucks that they got shot, but bad practices lead to bad results.

Beat Trash
07-30-2014, 10:22 AM
My agency mandates that if serving a warrant, there must be a uniform officer on the entry team. This is so that no one can claim that, "I didn't know that they were the Police". In addition, the CC Units (Plain Cloths officers) must wear a vest that says "Police" in big letters. Due to the nature of the assignment, some of the officers may have their face covered so as to disguise themselves. That's ok, but they must have some type of identification that says they are a Police Officer.

I will be the first to admit that I disagree with many things my agency does, but I never had an issue with this. To me, it made sense. I just assumed other agency had similar policies.

A few years ago some of our Vice officers went to a biker bar to do a liquor inspection. They brought two Uniform Patrol officers with them. Even so, they were greater with gunfire, as the national enforcer for one of the major outlaw motorcycle gangs was in town, and his first response was to start shooting at the officers. Others joined in with this guy in shooting at the officers. The "Enforcer" was pronounced dead at the scene, and two of our officers sustained non- life threatening wounds. Even with vests, badges on neck chains, and two Uniform Patrol Officers driving marked vehicles, many witnesses at the bar stated, "We didn't know they were the Police".

I can not imagine serving a warrant in plain cloths without some type of identification. But then I can't imagine being on the street without a vest and extra ammunition.

Chuck Haggard
07-30-2014, 10:32 AM
Having seen both sides of this argument, and lost a brother over the "I didn't know it was the poleece!" claims, I strongly feel that dudes that need to wear masks to avoid being ID'd as a UC have no business doing warrants.

UCs should UC, uniforms or SWAT should do warrants. The guys doing the hit need to be very well ID'd as being the real police.

Lon
07-30-2014, 11:53 AM
Having seen both sides of this argument, and lost a brother over the "I didn't know it was the poleece!" claims, I strongly feel that dudes that need to wear masks to avoid being ID'd as a UC have no business doing warrants.

UCs should UC, uniforms or SWAT should do warrants. The guys doing to hit need to be very well ID'd as being the real police.

Agreed. We weren't allowed to wear masks. It we didn't want our face to be seen, we didn't go on the warrant.

Coyotesfan97
07-30-2014, 01:31 PM
Having seen both sides of this argument, and lost a brother over the "I didn't know it was the poleece!" claims, I strongly feel that dudes that need to wear masks to avoid being ID'd as a UC have no business doing warrants.

UCs should UC, uniforms or SWAT should do warrants. The guys doing to hit need to be very well ID'd as being the real police.

+1

Our SWAT does almost all of our warrant services now. There are some very low risk warrants that can be served by Detectives. We almost exclusively do surround and calls with slow and deliberate searches of the interior.

It's pretty hard to claim you didn't know it was the police when there is a large marked armored car with emergency lighting blaring the siren and PA.

There are some reasons for it but one of the major ones was UCs playing shenanigans with the threat matrix so they didn't have to use SWAT.

ford.304
07-30-2014, 01:50 PM
+1
It's pretty hard to claim you didn't know it was the police when there is a large marked armored car with emergency lighting blaring the siren and PA.


It all depends on how much time is given to process that information. If the cops serve a warrant on me at night, I know I can't hear sirens from my bedroom if the windows are closed, nor can I see the driveway in any meaningful amount of time. Nor can I hear someone calling from the main door well enough to hear their words. In the event that police banged on my door in the middle of the night, I would have a pistol in hand long before I was able to identify who was doing the banging and shouting. My dog would also be barking, which would make it even harder to hear anyone saying "police."

Now, if I decided to investigate (as opposed to bunkering down with a locked bedroom door and calling the police, which is what one is generally advised to do in this situation), and the police gave me time to come to the front door and didn't shoot the moment they saw a man walk into the room carrying a pistol... I likely still wouldn't be able to tell they were cops, because they'd be shining a flashlight in my face through the window in my door, to see that *I* had a pistol. Or they decide that I am *not* being responsive, and have had enough time to answer, they bust the door down and come in with overwhelming force. At that point they are more concerned with not getting shot than they are being clearly identified as police, in the dark.

I find it very unlikely that I make it out of this scenario alive, no matter how many lights are flashing on the cruiser, or how big the POLICE letters on the back of the body armor is.

This is why I harp on the process around these things so much. If this same thing begins during the daytime, a "knock on the door" means something entirely different. I'm still going to be armed, but it'll be on my hip, not in condition Red. And I'll be much more able to see clearly that the people doing the knocking are wearing helmets, have POLICE written on their shirts, and have their faces uncovered.

There's no good reason to make it standard procedure to serve search warrants at night, to have uniforms that looks more like robbers than cops, or to point guns at people just because they were in a home that got a search warrant. Having guns *ready* to be pointed at people in a house with a search warrant, extra ammo, and some nice police-colored bulletproof vests just sounds like good planning to me.

Coyotesfan97
07-30-2014, 02:27 PM
The majority of our warrant services take place during the day, usually in the morning or mid afternoon. The whole point of the surround and callout is that you are giving any occupants a lengthy amount of time to process the information and make decisions accordingly. You aren't going to the door to breech it and make entry in seconds. The point is you want them to come outside to you rather than going inside to find them. I should add that the BATT in the driveway is usually complemented by the Bearcat behind the house if there is an alley. There is usually a fully marked K9 Tahoe by the armored car along with other vehicles. The emergency lights are activated on those vehicles.

The PA isn't the only thing used to talk to the occupants. If they have phone numbers the negotiators will be calling inside the structure while the PA is going. If there isn't any response from inside or people are seen inside we'll deploy Light Sound Diversionary Devices in the front and back yard.

If there is no response from inside and no one has been seen inside the entry team will move up, breech the door, and yell announcements inside. If they want to use the dog I'll yell a K9 announcements too though at that point the negotiators have already told anyone hiding the police dog will be searching inside. This could be 5-10 minutes from the time the PA has started. That is plenty of time for any occupants to have processed what is going on and surrender.

If people are seen inside and they are refusing to come out 37mm OC gas will be shot inside from positions of cover. until someone comes out. When someone comes out they are debriefed by the guys who take them into custody along with a more thorough debrief by a negotiator.

If there is intel about weapons and someone is hiding inside the warrant switches over to a criminal barricade. Then it could be a long time before the entry team goes inside.

That is our basic process for serving a warrant. There are many variables obviously. If we've gone through them it sure knocks down or weakens claims someone didn't know it was the Police outside.

ford.304
07-30-2014, 02:53 PM
Glad to hear you guys seem to have it figured out.

Edit: It's tough, sometimes, talking about "police procedures." I know that every department has its own way of doing things, some of them much, much better than others, but I realize that a lot of the guys harping on reforming the police have no idea on that, and I can definitely see that grating on the people who *are* doing it right.

Shellback
07-30-2014, 03:08 PM
The majority of our warrant services take place during the day, usually in the morning or mid afternoon. The whole point of the surround and callout is that you are giving any occupants a lengthy amount of time to process the information and make decisions accordingly. You aren't going to the door to breech it and make entry in seconds. The point is you want them to come outside to you rather than going inside to find them...
Everything you described seems reasonable, prudent and well thought out.

Lon
07-30-2014, 06:20 PM
The majority of our warrant services take place during the day, usually in the morning or mid afternoon. The whole point of the surround and callout is that you are giving any occupants a lengthy amount of time to process the information and make decisions accordingly. You aren't going to the door to breech it and make entry in seconds. The point is you want them to come outside to you rather than going inside to find them. I should add that the BATT in the driveway is usually complemented by the Bearcat behind the house if there is an alley. There is usually a fully marked K9 Tahoe by the armored car along with other vehicles. The emergency lights are activated on those vehicles.

The PA isn't the only thing used to talk to the occupants. If they have phone numbers the negotiators will be calling inside the structure while the PA is going. If there isn't any response from inside or people are seen inside we'll deploy Light Sound Diversionary Devices in the front and back yard.

If there is no response from inside and no one has been seen inside the entry team will move up, breech the door, and yell announcements inside. If they want to use the dog I'll yell a K9 announcements too though at that point the negotiators have already told anyone hiding the police dog will be searching inside. This could be 5-10 minutes from the time the PA has started. That is plenty of time for any occupants to have processed what is going on and surrender.

If people are seen inside and they are refusing to come out 37mm OC gas will be shot inside from positions of cover. until someone comes out. When someone comes out they are debriefed by the guys who take them into custody along with a more thorough debrief by a negotiator.

If there is intel about weapons and someone is hiding inside the warrant switches over to a criminal barricade. Then it could be a long time before the entry team goes inside.

That is our basic process for serving a warrant. There are many variables obviously. If we've gone through them it sure knocks down or weakens claims someone didn't know it was the Police outside.

This is essentially what we do as well. Pisses the dope guys off. Tough kitten. I won't sacrifice one of my guys for dope. My mindset on drug warrants changed while I was at the drug task force. Initially I was all about kickin in doors. We got lucky. Not worth it anymore. Unfortunately, not everyone agrees. The NTOA and the OTOA are changing their recommended procedures to surround and call out as well.

Chuck Haggard
07-30-2014, 09:43 PM
I will make note that the number one very best way to keep the cops from coming to do a warrant on your house is to not be a criminal.

ford.304
07-31-2014, 09:35 PM
I will make note that the number one very best way to keep the cops from coming to do a warrant on your house is to not be a criminal.

It's generally the best way to avoid getting shot at in general, or so I've heard :-)

Chuck Haggard
07-31-2014, 10:26 PM
It's generally the best way to avoid getting shot at in general, or so I've heard :-)

No, the best way to get shot is to be a criminal and to start to get your life turned around, or be just walking down the street minding your own damn bizness. Don't do those two things and you are almost guaranteed to never get shot.