White Light "Negligent Discharges"

[Jay Cunningham]

This is broken off from another thread...

We've been having some discussions lately sort of challenging (which I'm a big fan of BTW) some standard fare, such as "mandatory" night sights on "serious use" guns, fiber optics that will/won't get you killed in a gunfight (GYKIAGF)... so now let's hit on the dreaded white light negligent discharge.

One set of ground rules: please state if you are current or former military, PMC, LE when giving your opinion. This will help everyone in the discussion know where you're coming from.

[Chuck Haggard]

I think there are a lot of issues to be dealt with on this one. Just as one size gun does not fit all, light fit and switching to the gun are also important.

I prefer to run the toggle type switches on a PML with my trigger finger and use the light on as as needed basis. When I was running a shield a lot in SWAT I had the old yoke type early DG switch on my USPs, those ran fine, and I didn't have indexing issues on the draw due to starting with the gun already in my hand most of the time, and due to the switch design. I am not a fan of the feel of the current DG switch on Glocks, messed with my grip index on the draw.

I never really had any issue with white light ADs when running a PML, but I also dry train the crap out of new equipment when I get it.

[Dagga Boy]

what Chuck said.

[orionz06]

Is there any overlap between different methods of using a light where one from a particular background would consider light usage from another background "negligent"? IE someone using a constant on vs someone who does a flash and pie.

[TheTrevor]

I never really had any issue with white light ADs when running a PML, but I also dry train the crap out of new equipment when I get it.

My completely non-pro opinion from dry-training with my TLR-2 with remote switch (similar to the DG)... There's a direct and unmistakable relationship between the amount of time I spent dry-firing with the light/switch affixed and my ability to keep my middle finger reliably arched over the switch. I had 3-4 WLND's (white-light NDs) in the first three cumulative hours, perhaps 1-2 more in the next 6-7 hours, and none that I can recall after that. I feel like that light-switch protective index starts to degrade if I go more than a few weeks without spending some quality time with the TLR-2.

Besides, accidentally flashing a 600lm white light when you're not expecting it (especially when standing in a dark room and looking directly into the illuminated area) tends to be a self-correcting problem. Memory of that retinal searing gives you good motivation to avoid repeating same.

[Tamara]

I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

However, I'm not as worried about the whole idea on my CCW gun because it's most likely that anybody I have any business shooting (outside of a home defense scenario) already knows exactly where I am anyway.

(The whole "_____ will give away your position!" is something of a pet peeve of mine in that context.)

[orionz06]

(The whole "_____ will give away your position!" is something of a pet peeve of mine in that context.)

Yup. This has been discussed a bit before outside the forum. Much of the light usage instruction comes from the military where the mission, the gear, rules of engagement, numbers, and people involved are all different.

[Lon]

Besides, accidentally flashing a 600lm white light when you're not expecting it (especially when standing in a dark room and looking directly into the illuminated area) tends to be a self-correcting problem. Memory of that retinal searing gives you good motivation to avoid repeating same.

This here's a good topic in and of itself. How many lumens does the average person (non-mil/LE) need? Anything over 200 tends to be overkill, IMHO. I've rarely needed more than 200 at work (LE).

Sorry for thread drift. Back to our regularly scheduled program......

[TheTrevor]

This here's a good topic in and of itself. How many lumens does the average person (non-mil/LE) need? Anything over 200 tends to be overkill, IMHO. I've rarely needed more than 200 at work (LE).

I absolutely love having 600lm of white light on tap when I'm outdoors, especially when you add in the coaxial red laser. Whether it's 200lm or 600lm, my night vision is going to be blown out when the light goes on, and 600lm means I can see like it's daylight. Better, even, with the contrast you get from a high power white LED light source. It's practically cheating, which tells me it's a good thing.

Indoors, if I need light while the gun is at the low ready, I get everything I need from the bounce of floor/walls/etc. The beauty of 600lm is not needing to raise the gun from low ready to get a positive ID when the light comes on. I've thought about getting a red flip-off filter, but that's just one more thing to manipulate when I already keep a 200lm red LED hand-held flashlight handy.

I'm also a believer in "insanely bright light as a force multiplier", and as such, I'm 100% convinced that anyone within 30-40 feet looking at the bright end of that light is going to be less effective in bringing the fight to me at home or when we're out camping somewhere. I've tried some backyard exercises with one of my kids holding the light and tracking me with the laser, and not only was I half-blinded I had a headache afterwards.

My circumstances and requirements are not necessarily the same as others, I'm not LE or mil, etc etc.

[Jay Cunningham]

I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

However, I'm not as worried about the whole idea on my CCW gun because it's most likely that anybody I have any business shooting (outside of a home defense scenario) already knows exactly where I am anyway.

(The whole "_____ will give away your position!" is something of a pet peeve of mine in that context.)


This is the crux of what I was getting at.

[Chuck Haggard]

I remain unconvinced that the average CCW person needs a WML outside of the house.

It's tough for bad guys to jack people when it's too dark to see them. Just sayin.

[Stephen]

I remain unconvinced that the average CCW person needs a WML outside of the house.

It's tough for bad guys to jack people when it's too dark to see them. Just sayin.

I agree with you. But when I go to bed, my CCW gun becomes my nightstand gun. I can see some benefit to having your go-to pistol being set up to be as versatile as possible.

Do you see any drawbacks to having a WML on a carry gun, other than the long odds of being needed?

[Cookie Monster]

I live out in 30 to 60 minute response times for police as well as large carnivores, I can envision my fight going or starting outside as well as showing up at my house to a fight where a light would be helpful. In general, urban areas with a lot of light pollution, the need diminishes.

C. Monster

[TheTrevor]

I remain unconvinced that the average CCW person needs a WML outside of the house.

It's tough for bad guys to jack people when it's too dark to see them. Just sayin.

100% agree. I don't carry concealed with a WML affixed. That's for home/campsite OWB carry. Pocket-clipped flashlight is the appropriate complement to the CCW weapons.

[Chuck Haggard]

I agree with you. But when I go to bed, my CCW gun becomes my nightstand gun. I can see some benefit to having your go-to pistol being set up to be as versatile as possible.

Do you see any drawbacks to having a WML on a carry gun, other than the long odds of being needed?

Size, holster fit, comfort, additional weapon length. Although the light extending past the muzzle does make a good stand-off for contact shots, that need also seems to be rare in CCW scenarios.

At home I have an extra pistol that has a light mounted all of the time. On the road I tend to just bring a light with me and snap it on my carry piece before going to bed.

[Chuck Haggard]

I live out in 30 to 60 minute response times for police as well as large carnivores, I can envision my fight going or starting outside as well as showing up at my house to a fight where a light would be helpful. In general, urban areas with a lot of light pollution, the need diminishes.

C. Monster


I'd likely have a shotgun with a WML on it at home, no question. If you think having a WML on your CCW piece is a good idea then it's do-able.

[Tamara]

I remain unconvinced that the average CCW person needs a WML outside of the house.

It's tough for bad guys to jack people when it's too dark to see them. Just sayin.

"Need"? Naw. But I do think that being able to see better is rarely a bad thing.

(If it doesn't add any appreciable size or bulk to the gun, I like having the light on it. I realize that the CTC Lightguard isn't much of a "300-lumen-my-light-is-a-weapon-rawr" but it doesn't add any real weight or bulk to the gun and it could make my shooting more better under certain circumstances.)

[Coyotesfan97]

I'm using a toggle switch on my Surefire 300 PML. My NDs are nil. I actually prefer to use my flashlights as little as I can get away with. But I also have a four legged bad guy detector 6-15 feet ahead of me depending on the leash du jour and who we are looking for.

The white light NDs I usually deal with are usually the cover guy behind new backlighting the kitten out of me and my dog. This means I stop and say 1 the lights distracts the dog and he stops using his nose 2 you are backlighting me and the dog 3 use your light only if you need to identify something. Most patrol guys don't like searching in low light conditions.

[LittleLebowski]

I'm using a toggle switch on my Surefire 300 PML. My NDs are nil. I actually prefer to use my flashlights as little as I can get away with. But I also have a four legged bad guy detector 6-15 feet ahead of me depending on the leash du jour and who we are looking for.

The white light NDs I usually deal with are usually the cover guy behind new backlighting the kitten out of me and my dog. This means I stop and say 1 the lights distracts the dog and he stops using his nose 2 you are backlighting me and the dog 3 use your light only if you need to identify something. Most patrol guys don't like searching in low light conditions.

What are the odds that you're being muzzled with an WML equipped weapon during these times?

[Coyotesfan97]

It depends who I have covering me. Most of the time the lights are going out to my left or right. That is one reason I prefer having SWAT guys covering me. The odds are low then.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Chuck Haggard]

Sounds like training is in order.

If your patrol guys can't competently search in the dark then you guys have a serious training issue.

[taadski]

This is the crux of what I was getting at.

Jay,

The context of my white light ND comment from the other thread is based on running a DG switch on a WML as a graveyard patrol cop, FWIW. And within that context there are definitively times when I may have a pistol in hand and don't want a white light signature illuminating my location.

Despite tons of mileage and vetting them over the course of years, I continue to go back and forth on the DG. On one hand they can be a great tool and there's no questioning their effectiveness during the "powered up" phase or while actually shooting but I've grown to prefer having a bit more resolute control of my white light and I'm currently just using the stock Surefire toggles.

FWIW, I have clickies on my long guns also and believe they're a better solution than pressure pads (for lights anyway) for a lot of the same reasons.

Just my 2 pesos.

t

[JustOneGun]

"I learned more about being a LEO by being a bad guy than I ever did from an instructor." I would drive my student officers nuts with this saying. I was trained in and used for years the flash on and off when needed using the support hand thumb police flashlight technique. I used this until I spent literally dozens of hours a year as a bad guy in various abandoned buildings around the city.
What I found out was that it just didn't matter. Leave the light on? I could tell if I knew your face when I shot you with UTM/Simunitions. Leave the light off and I would shoot the gloomy looking shape who said, Police just a few seconds before at the door. Use the light intermittently and I will shoot you too. The light suddenly coming on didn't blind me even when they got lucky and pointed it at me before I shot them. The dark didn't stop me from locating them even on the darkest night. I never had a problem shooting the cop, from rookie to tenured SWAT officer. Action beat reaction over and over again.
I can't prove but I suspect that any ND using the trigger finger to turn the light on was due to having your trigger finger on the trigger. Of course officers are usually trained not to do that. It always seemed to be a completely different muscle motion to activate the light or the trigger. So it might be a training issue? Or it might be that some people believe that if it is just as easy to use another way to activate it, then why not just do that and avoid any possible problems? I think it depends on who you are and your situation (holding kids comes to mind.)

[Coyotesfan97]

Sounds like training is in order.

If your patrol guys can't competently search in the dark then you guys have a serious training issue.

I generally train every time I search for what I need them to do. Their tactics aren't necessarily bad if they are searching with another Officer. A lot of times it might be the first time they've searched with a K9. Nyeti talked on another thread about using a 10%er. If they are there I grab them.

If they are searching with a K9 handler who is out in front of them they need to have light discipline. Reference LLs question (I was tired this morning) AFAIK I've never been muzzled. That's not to say I haven't been. I work a late swings early graves shift. The later it us in the shift the higher the ID number generally. The enthusiasm is there but the street experience might not be there. We are seeing a lot of brand new guys on graves. A lot of times they haven't searched with a dog. Sometimes it's a lick on me for not briefing them before starting the search.


We've started going out to the Academy field problems for one night and every recruit goes through a mock area search where we discuss light discipline, where to be during the search, and where not to be when the suspect is located ie don't stand next to the dog who really wants to bite something and doesn't care what it is. If we have time we also do a building search with them.

We are hoping to increase proficiency in searching and reduce unintended bites by starting at the Academy.

[Jay Cunningham]

I have been in multiple training environments where a "white light ND" was considered akin to an actual ND. I have witnessed students get screamed at and chewed-out for white light NDs.

My question (relating back to what Tamara had alluded to) is: when is a white light ND an issue? Is it always an issue? How important/unimportant is it?

I'll note that in the above example, the instructor was always from an SF background, and the students were a mix of LEO, active .mil, and normal human civilian.

[TCinVA]

I think there's a scale. Your average joe interested in personal defense and home defense is probably at hardly any risk whatsoever to his person or mission from unintentionally activating a white light.

Your average patrol officer in most circumstances probably has a slightly higher risk. Your typical SWAT guy higher than that, and even then probably more risk to the mission (trying to locate and arrest a bad guy) than of triggering a gunfight. I say the risk is fairly minimal here because in my experience police officers who intelligently use white light are pretty few and far between. Most I've seen treat the light like a woobie and yet they don't seem to get killed regularly as a result. It certainly could conceivably go bad, it just doesn't seem to very often. I'll defer to others with more experience, but that's my read.

Your average dude who flies into another country full of hostiles in a stealthy helicopter to sneak up on the world's most wanted terrorist...it's probably a bad day for him and everybody around him if he sets off that WML inappropriately.

Light discipline is something the average joe should know exists, but he has lots of other more important stuff to worry about and be trained on.

I'm also reminded of Todd's experience clearing a house with SuperDave here...

[orionz06]

I think there's a scale. Your average joe interested in personal defense and home defense is probably at hardly any risk whatsoever to his person or mission from unintentionally activating a white light.


I am gonna agree here. Even being on the bad guy side of an AMIS scenario where a user was horrible with the light, I knew the route, and I had extreme confidence in my technique/skill over the opponent a light ND wasn't what I had hoped it to be. Replace someone who has been training 9 hours during the day and wants to blast someone with a fury of airsoft pellets with a lesser skilled bad guy with out any considerable skill, technique, or know how and less knowledge and practice on the route you are gonna have a hard time telling me I will be at extreme risk. Doesn't mean I will just leave the light on.

If the lights attract fire and one has an ND why can't we just move? If we can't why are we in a position where we can't? I think it boils down to if the light goes off, accelerate the plan slightly to account for it.


I'm also reminded of Todd's experience clearing a house with SuperDave here...

Top 3 "industry" stories ever. Especially having heard it from all 3 parties involved.

[TCinVA]

Unintentional activation of Todd's laser actually proved useful to me during AMIS. I saw his laser go off and I got out of the way, and that led to about 5 minutes of he and I trying to shoot one another without success in the pitch blackness. Says something about how difficult things get when the targets are real people and it's dark when a guy with Todd's skill can miss a dude my size at a few yards.

...but that was a Culpepper rape dungeon worst case scenario. Rarely will the average joe be trying to work his way through a series of rooms littered with animal feces and 1980's Beta-Max porn tapes in an effort to find and neutralize 1/2 a dozen armed opponents intent on a gunfight.

I probably have more skill in the use of a white light than most (which is a damnably low standard, certainly) and I could likely go the rest of my life without ever learning anything else and be just fine. I still want to get a better handle on using the white light because I'm an obsessive nerd like that.

If I were rolling out on patrol tomorrow, I wouldn't consider it a want...I would view it as a need.

[Jay Cunningham]

I think there's a scale. Your average joe interested in personal defense and home defense is probably at hardly any risk whatsoever to his person or mission from unintentionally activating a white light.

Your average patrol officer in most circumstances probably has a slightly higher risk. Your typical SWAT guy higher than that, and even then probably more risk to the mission (trying to locate and arrest a bad guy) than of triggering a gunfight. I say the risk is fairly minimal here because in my experience police officers who intelligently use white light are pretty few and far between. Most I've seen treat the light like a woobie and yet they don't seem to get killed regularly as a result. It certainly could conceivably go bad, it just doesn't seem to very often. I'll defer to others with more experience, but that's my read.

Your average dude who flies into another country full of hostiles in a stealthy helicopter to sneak up on the world's most wanted terrorist...it's probably a bad day for him and everybody around him if he sets off that WML inappropriately.

Light discipline is something the average joe should know exists, but he has lots of other more important stuff to worry about and be trained on.

I'm also reminded of Todd's experience clearing a house with SuperDave here...


Well put, and I agree.

So why do we hear average Joe talking about white light NDs like he's going to give away his team's position between now and the next waadi?

Did he watch too much YouTube!?

Did an instructor with a lot of experience give him good advice but he failed to comprehend it?

Did an instructor with a lot of experience but not much perspective tell him that was The Way?


http://pooboy.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/TootsiePop.jpg


The world may never know.

[Failure2Stop]

For a normal gal/guy checking their house for a bump in the night, preventing unintentional activation of their WML ranks about equal to not slamming doors and moving without sounding like they have cement blocks for shoes.

There are times to be invisible and times to project overt presence.

[TCinVA]

Well put, and I agree.

So why do we hear average Joe talking about white light NDs like he's going to give away his team's position between now and the next waadi?

Did he watch too much YouTube!?

Did an instructor with a lot of experience give him good advice but he failed to comprehend it?

Did an instructor with a lot of experience but not much perspective tell him that was The Way?


http://pooboy.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/TootsiePop.jpg


The world may never know.

The line between the voice of experience and argument from authority is blurred all to hell when it comes to gun stuff...but I'd say the military is probably the genesis of most of it. Not just instructors, but also people who had infantry training some years ago that isn't terribly relevant to the situation of the average joe. I distinctly remember a dude on a message board complaining about the liability a white light poses in combat when there was a discussion about some pictures of guys from JSOC with lights on their carbines.

The dude simply would not let go of what got drilled into him when he stood on the yellow footprints a quarter century ago. He'd never been in combat but that didn't stop him from complaining that guys in more elite units than he was ever in were using white lights on their weapons in the current conflict.

I think you and I could both name a number of people quick to talk about the need for others to stay in their "lane" who nevertheless wander out of their own rather freely and with little accountability. That spreads, unfortunately.

[Dr. No]

I run a X300U and DG switch on my duty gun and on SWAT missions. Most of the time they know we're there long before they may see us because we've been talking, yelling, and getting them messages over the PA... A white light flash isn't going to be a huge surprise ..

I suppose the same would not be true for a sniper who is trying to sneak into an OP so he can give pre-op intel .... I think it's all really driven by the mission.

[Chuck Haggard]

"I learned more about being a LEO by being a bad guy than I ever did from an instructor." I would drive my student officers nuts with this saying. I was trained in and used for years the flash on and off when needed using the support hand thumb police flashlight technique. I used this until I spent literally dozens of hours a year as a bad guy in various abandoned buildings around the city.
What I found out was that it just didn't matter. Leave the light on? I could tell if I knew your face when I shot you with UTM/Simunitions. Leave the light off and I would shoot the gloomy looking shape who said, Police just a few seconds before at the door. Use the light intermittently and I will shoot you too. The light suddenly coming on didn't blind me even when they got lucky and pointed it at me before I shot them. The dark didn't stop me from locating them even on the darkest night. I never had a problem shooting the cop, from rookie to tenured SWAT officer. Action beat reaction over and over again.
I can't prove but I suspect that any ND using the trigger finger to turn the light on was due to having your trigger finger on the trigger. Of course officers are usually trained not to do that. It always seemed to be a completely different muscle motion to activate the light or the trigger. So it might be a training issue? Or it might be that some people believe that if it is just as easy to use another way to activate it, then why not just do that and avoid any possible problems? I think it depends on who you are and your situation (holding kids comes to mind.)

My experience as the bad guy taught me that if the person knows what they are doing the opposite is true. This is an area that has to be experienced to be believed. People who know how to use lighting and teamwork absolutely dominate bad guys hiding in the dark waiting to ambush them. It ain't even close to "fair".

As far as while light NDs? If a person has worked with their gear enough, and the gear doesn't suck, then this should be a rather rare event.

[orionz06]

Unintentional activation of Todd's laser actually proved useful to me during AMIS. I saw his laser go off and I got out of the way, and that led to about 5 minutes of he and I trying to shoot one another without success in the pitch blackness. Says something about how difficult things get when the targets are real people and it's dark when a guy with Todd's skill can miss a dude my size at a few yards.

...but that was a Culpepper rape dungeon worst case scenario. Rarely will the average joe be trying to work his way through a series of rooms littered with animal feces and 1980's Beta-Max porn tapes in an effort to find and neutralize 1/2 a dozen armed opponents intent on a gunfight.

I probably have more skill in the use of a white light than most (which is a damnably low standard, certainly) and I could likely go the rest of my life without ever learning anything else and be just fine. I still want to get a better handle on using the white light because I'm an obsessive nerd like that.

If I were rolling out on patrol tomorrow, I wouldn't consider it a want...I would view it as a need.


Is a laser ND the same as a light ND? One draws a line straight to you and the other may blast the whole room.

[JustOneGun]

My experience as the bad guy taught me that if the person knows what they are doing the opposite is true. This is an area that has to be experienced to be believed. People who know how to use lighting and teamwork absolutely dominate bad guys hiding in the dark waiting to ambush them. It ain't even close to "fair".

As far as while light NDs? If a person has worked with their gear enough, and the gear doesn't suck, then this should be a rather rare event.

Interesting that you found this. Did you find that your action on an ambush was not significantly quicker than the officers? As I noted that even with no lights on or perfect flashes of the light, I knew where they were. I even took to shooting left handed, one handed and point shooting just to try and make it fair (pretending to suck at shooting). As a bad guy I was just staring at three feet of doorway. The officers are always looking at a lot more square feet. I shot slow for training value but still it was always me shooting two or three rounds before they even saw where I was.
The only thing that ever slowed down my shooting the officers was movement. I still shot at them a few times before they returned fire but the movement slowed me down. Good officers were able to overcome the reaction gap and engage me before I shot both of them. But make no mistake about it I always fired two or three rounds at one of them before they got in the fight.
Someone mentioned sound as an example earlier. Funny but when a house is quiet I could hear the officer's cloth uniform rustle from two or three rooms away. I took to asking tenured officers to try and be ninjas just to see if I still heard them. Yep I heard them. So no reason to say three, two, one, go as you enter a room, but certainly no reason to think you are a ninja and you will surprise the bad guy as you enter each room. In most quiet homes you will not surprise them if they have their eyes and ears open.
As a civilian I have thought to use this to my advantage at home but it just didn't work out as I thought it would. To many other factor involved to be of much use, except if at all possible to let the bad guy come to you. Make them react to you.

[Shellback]

Germane to the topic, FBI Violent Encounters p. 126:


...When he started lighting up the backyard with his flashlight, I moved closer to the building. I didn't think he would figure that I'd be there. I could see exactly where he was because of the flashlight. When he swung the light in my direction, I fired directly at the flashlight... It was easy. I could tell exactly where he was, but he didn't know where I was.

[Will_H]

I'm also reminded of Todd's experience clearing a house with SuperDave here...

Link? I'd love to read it.

[JustOneGun]

Germane to the topic, FBI Violent Encounters p. 126:

The problem with this is we can't ask follow up questions of the turd? Was it because the officer left the light on? Was it because it was going on and off with perfect technique but was still visible? How can we change our light usage to avoid it and still find the bad guy? How as civilians can we or should we avoid the ND of the light or even employ the light at all? As with much of the FBI stuff it doesn't give us a big enough picture to make informed decisions. We have to read into it. So what we do is make a Wild Asp Scientific Guess. So we still have to slow down and ask all the geek questions in order to reason it out.
And as I mentioned earlier, we have to use common sense. I used to turn the house lights on and leave my light on when searching. I did so because of what I did to even the good shooters while sitting in the dark. It was more an action reaction situation mixed with the perspective of real world lighting from the guy shooting at me that made me change my mind. This allowed me to spend all my time dealing with moving and minimizing the lag time of that reaction gap. Of course if someone said they still wanted to minimize their light usage because it might still give them a small edge then I said sure. I just suggested they put it into perspective so they could get a balance for seeing with the lights on or moving in the gloom. I often suggested they sit next to me as the bad guy and see for themselves. We sometimes still disagreed, but it was an informed decision. Hey we all choose our tactics and then make them work as best we can. Real life sucks sometimes.LOL

[Chuck Haggard]

Interesting that you found this. Did you find that your action on an ambush was not significantly quicker than the officers? As I noted that even with no lights on or perfect flashes of the light, I knew where they were. I even took to shooting left handed, one handed and point shooting just to try and make it fair (pretending to suck at shooting). As a bad guy I was just staring at three feet of doorway. The officers are always looking at a lot more square feet. I shot slow for training value but still it was always me shooting two or three rounds before they even saw where I was.
The only thing that ever slowed down my shooting the officers was movement. I still shot at them a few times before they returned fire but the movement slowed me down. Good officers were able to overcome the reaction gap and engage me before I shot both of them. But make no mistake about it I always fired two or three rounds at one of them before they got in the fight.
Someone mentioned sound as an example earlier. Funny but when a house is quiet I could hear the officer's cloth uniform rustle from two or three rooms away. I took to asking tenured officers to try and be ninjas just to see if I still heard them. Yep I heard them. So no reason to say three, two, one, go as you enter a room, but certainly no reason to think you are a ninja and you will surprise the bad guy as you enter each room. In most quiet homes you will not surprise them if they have their eyes and ears open.
As a civilian I have thought to use this to my advantage at home but it just didn't work out as I thought it would. To many other factor involved to be of much use, except if at all possible to let the bad guy come to you. Make them react to you.

They were poorly trained and using ineffective lighting tactics. That's actually pretty typical.

[JustOneGun]

They were poorly trained and using ineffective lighting tactics. That's actually pretty typical.

I'd be interested to hear what the properly trained ones did differently with their LIGHTS to overcome the reactionary gap?
Don't get me wrong I agree with you that the typical cop has horrible flashlight technique and that poor training is the primary cause.
I also think there are tactics for the typical pair of cops who search a building to use in order to dominate a gunfight and win. It's a matter of good training.
What I was focusing on was the use of different flashlight techniques. The simple fact that no matter what the officers did with the LIGHT (on, off, intermittent, synched between them, staggered or they cheated by memorizing the layout of the building and really moving through it quickly in the dark) nothing stopped me from hitting the first one I choose two or three times with slow fire at any point before they located me with their lights. SWAT Operators (they used different light and search techniques as patrol), recruits, tenured patrol,Sheriffs deputies (they really used different techniques), detectives, federal agents (Marshals mostly), didn't seem to matter on the light technique. Like you said, it wasn't even close. Except I always got one of them and sometimes both if they were slow to react or had bad search tactics.
Search technique is all important. Light technique? I believe way over hyped.
And yes, I did have fun getting paid to play tweeker with a gun while using it as my own personal laboratory. Six years of experiments, woo hoo. The best job in the world, TACTICS LAB, the reality show. LOL. By the way the toughest target was a U.S. Marshal on their local warrant recovery team. It was like shooting fireflies on meth, quick and smooth. I still got one of them three times. The second gave me a few welts that night to remember them by. I stopped making fun of federal agents after that night. Well, I still made fun of the IRS team.

[BoppaBear]

Two of my HD pistols have WMLs. I shoot them fairly regularly (one being my P30 V3 that I retired and replaced with a V1). I also practice dry quite a bit. Never had any PML NDs.

With my rifle, however, I was running a SF SR07 remote switch to my M300. The switch was at 12, right behind my front sight. I found out that using the overhand/"c-clamp" to shoot, I was activating the momentary on button during recoil. Out went the remote, and back to tail cap click switch.

Said it before, I'm no operator or pro. Just an average Joe.

[Chuck Haggard]

I'd be interested to hear what the properly trained ones did differently with their LIGHTS to overcome the reactionary gap?
Don't get me wrong I agree with you that the typical cop has horrible flashlight technique and that poor training is the primary cause.
I also think there are tactics for the typical pair of cops who search a building to use in order to dominate a gunfight and win. It's a matter of good training.
What I was focusing on was the use of different flashlight techniques. The simple fact that no matter what the officers did with the LIGHT (on, off, intermittent, synched between them, staggered or they cheated by memorizing the layout of the building and really moving through it quickly in the dark) nothing stopped me from hitting the first one I choose two or three times with slow fire at any point before they located me with their lights. SWAT Operators (they used different light and search techniques as patrol), recruits, tenured patrol,Sheriffs deputies (they really used different techniques), detectives, federal agents (Marshals mostly), didn't seem to matter on the light technique. Like you said, it wasn't even close. Except I always got one of them and sometimes both if they were slow to react or had bad search tactics.
Search technique is all important. Light technique? I believe way over hyped.
And yes, I did have fun getting paid to play tweeker with a gun while using it as my own personal laboratory. Six years of experiments, woo hoo. The best job in the world, TACTICS LAB, the reality show. LOL. By the way the toughest target was a U.S. Marshal on their local warrant recovery team. It was like shooting fireflies on meth, quick and smooth. I still got one of them three times. The second gave me a few welts that night to remember them by. I stopped making fun of federal agents after that night. Well, I still made fun of the IRS team.


What you are asking for is a week long instructor course on low light doctrine and tactics in a thread post.

[Dagga Boy]

I'd be interested to hear what the properly trained ones did differently with their LIGHTS to overcome the reactionary gap?
Don't get me wrong I agree with you that the typical cop has horrible flashlight technique and that poor training is the primary cause.
I also think there are tactics for the typical pair of cops who search a building to use in order to dominate a gunfight and win. It's a matter of good training.
What I was focusing on was the use of different flashlight techniques. The simple fact that no matter what the officers did with the LIGHT (on, off, intermittent, synched between them, staggered or they cheated by memorizing the layout of the building and really moving through it quickly in the dark) nothing stopped me from hitting the first one I choose two or three times with slow fire at any point before they located me with their lights. SWAT Operators (they used different light and search techniques as patrol), recruits, tenured patrol,Sheriffs deputies (they really used different techniques), detectives, federal agents (Marshals mostly), didn't seem to matter on the light technique. Like you said, it wasn't even close. Except I always got one of them and sometimes both if they were slow to react or had bad search tactics.
Search technique is all important. Light technique? I believe way over hyped.
And yes, I did have fun getting paid to play tweeker with a gun while using it as my own personal laboratory. Six years of experiments, woo hoo. The best job in the world, TACTICS LAB, the reality show. LOL. By the way the toughest target was a U.S. Marshal on their local warrant recovery team. It was like shooting fireflies on meth, quick and smooth. I still got one of them three times. The second gave me a few welts that night to remember them by. I stopped making fun of federal agents after that night. Well, I still made fun of the IRS team.

Winning as a role player on this stuff is brutally easy. You are basically set up to win based on the total lack of consequence. 25 of the officers buddies who you "shoot" are not coming in to kill you when you "win". The idea of these is to "train" and it's why I really pushed to get away from role players who didn't get this. Instructors need to use this stuff to see where training weakness is.
The reality is that a couple officers trying to dig out a single armed unknown in a defended position with almost no consequence to the bad guy (1%er with nothing to lose) is always going to be a lose for the cops. Especially the ones who don't do it all the time. On the other hand..... I have a feeling that if Chuck and I were using a wide variety of lighting techniques as the two officers, life as a role player could get a little tougher.
For what it's worth, it can be in totally lit conditions and you will find the situation doesn't change much. To me, I need to see threats, and evaluate and positively ID them and then process as necessary. It's tough in any conditions and you will always be behind the curve with and adversary who simply gets to see and shoot with no other distractions like laws and constitutional protections. The light becomes a tool to help with that process when conditions exist where your vision is limited due to darkness. You can use lots of tactics to build some time, but that is true in daylight as well and why the "tactics" component and gun handling is as important as the marksmanship and mindset components.

[TCinVA]

Is a laser ND the same as a light ND? One draws a line straight to you and the other may blast the whole room.

A small point of light vs. lighting up half the room, so I'd say not really. In that very specific situation I recognized what I was seeing and the significance of it and was able to take evasive action before I caught a bullet to the face. I doubt your typical bad guy is going to have the same recognition and reaction going for him in your typical home invasion.

[JustOneGun]

Winning as a role player on this stuff is brutally easy. You are basically set up to win based on the total lack of consequence. 25 of the officers buddies who you "shoot" are not coming in to kill you when you "win". The idea of these is to "train" and it's why I really pushed to get away from role players who didn't get this. Instructors need to use this stuff to see where training weakness is.
The reality is that a couple officers trying to dig out a single armed unknown in a defended position with almost no consequence to the bad guy (1%er with nothing to lose) is always going to be a lose for the cops. Especially the ones who don't do it all the time. On the other hand..... I have a feeling that if Chuck and I were using a wide variety of lighting techniques as the two officers, life as a role player could get a little tougher.
For what it's worth, it can be in totally lit conditions and you will find the situation doesn't change much. To me, I need to see threats, and evaluate and positively ID them and then process as necessary. It's tough in any conditions and you will always be behind the curve with and adversary who simply gets to see and shoot with no other distractions like laws and constitutional protections. The light becomes a tool to help with that process when conditions exist where your vision is limited due to darkness. You can use lots of tactics to build some time, but that is true in daylight as well and why the "tactics" component and gun handling is as important as the marksmanship and mindset components.

The training weakness that you allude to is what we have been discussing? I remained the roll player as a full time instructor often for that reason otherwise we're playing paint ball and not training. Just because I used it as a laboratory and had fun didn't mean I wasn't doing my job well. None of that has anything to do with the myth of flashlight technique.

I will take it to the geek level in a generic summery and then as Todd says, bow out.

If the bad guy is going to run away or give up then your technique doesn't really matter. You could moon walk through the house and then handcuff them or hold them at gunpoint for the police. Training for the 1% or just the scared rabbit who is going to run away while emptying the gun over his shoulder has value. What the bad guy does is not up to you, it's up to them. We look at what and how they've done stuff historically in order to keep our training in a realistic ballpark but it's still up to them. If I get all worked up as a bad guy and decide to shoot at you what technique of the light will you do to stop me? My experience is, nothing. What you do in a search technique with movement, contact cover and such means a whole lot.

I found as a retired cop that all homes I have lived in have enough ambient light to see a body shape clearly. If the bad guy wanted to shoot me he didn't have a problem hitting me in the gloom. They don't need to ID me, just shoot at me and run or for the 1% shoot me and then contact wound me. So if the bad guy can see me with my light off then what fancy technique am I going to use with the light to keep that from happening. I've been to the instructor course and learned numerous ways. The answer was still the same. Nothing.

Now as a LEO from time to time I found myself in a basement or tunnel where there was NO light. So I tried all kinds of light and movement techniques as an officer. I was not super cop or super instructor but I have a good mind and worked hard. I was a good cop and a better instructor. As the bad guy a few years later I found myself in a pitch black basement of a school doing active shooter training. No light. Guess what from bad technique to good those officers had to use there light to find me and not fall on their face. Again I found it easy to locate and shoot them. The good cops and agents really limited the light usage at any one time. They also seemed to be able to limit the number of times they used it by searching what they saw faster and more efficiently. I am good enough to tell when they had been training and the ones who just were typical street cops who didn't give a crap. I didn't have problems shooting the professionals. What they did with the lights before I began the shootouts didn't matter. Even the officers who just turned on the lights or turned on the flashlight and left it on. I wasn't able to shoot them any easier than the officers using fantastic technique. The need for the officer to balance seeing thus using a light and moving in the pitch dark still allowed me to see them well enough to shoot them.

Given that I always suggested that the student try it for themselves at home or in a variety of buildings they found themselves in. Then they can decide is it the light technique that saved your life or the movement, positioning, cover officer or searcher that saved it? Deep thoughts I know but the geek in me says they are useful.

With that I thank you for all the thoughts, experience you've given and the time you've spent helping us ponder these things. It really is useful no matter what side of the light you find yourself on. LOL.

[Chuck Haggard]

It would appear that everyone you went up against was "trained" in basically the same way, and either took it seriously or did not. IMHO, poorly trained.

Reading the light one is in, and where the bad guy/s might be, is one of the first things one needs to do. Using the correct amount of light for that situation is then where the art and training comes in.

My experience is that bad guys, both real and FoF, can be absolutely dominated by people who know what they are doing.



I'll throw in that an "active-shooter" scenario in the pitch dark with a bad guys waiting in ambush is starting out with some reality issues, but whatever.

[JustOneGun]

It would appear that everyone you went up against was "trained" in basically the same way, and either took it seriously or did not. IMHO, poorly trained.

Reading the light one is in, and where the bad guy/s might be, is one of the first things one needs to do. Using the correct amount of light for that situation is then where the art and training comes in.

My experience is that bad guys, both real and FoF, can be absolutely dominated by people who know what they are doing.



I'll throw in that an "active-shooter" scenario in the pitch dark with a bad guys waiting in ambush is starting out with some reality issues, but whatever.

Chuck, Nyeti: If I came across as disrespectful to you or Nyeti I apologize. I do ask very pointed and particular questions. I know they are sometimes irritating but they also are good questions from a different perspective that I believe may be of value. I don't ask them to go all internet on the SME or to just be an Adam Henry.
I do ask these questions because I have watched police and some civilian training become, "well we always do it that way and it works. If you don't like it you must be a poor trainer." Sometimes pointed questions make us change how and what we do. Sometimes it just confirms what we do, in a different context, as good to go. Hard questions and good well thought out answers. As long as we don't make it personal it really doesn't matter what people decide about an issue. Just points to ponder. It's all good stuff.
Again, thank you. I appreciate the conversation.

[Chuck Haggard]

No worries brother, I don't take any of this personal.

[Dagga Boy]

I didn't either, it is all good.
Experience plays a lot in this. I have been blessed in that flashlight stuff was critical in both shootings I have been in. Additionally, getting in a massive Internet pissing contest with Ken Good that resulted in me inviting Ken out to teach at a seminar I hosted and we learned a bunch from each other. So I have been the Internet jerk as well and made it a means to continue learning, so we are all good.


Edited to add: I thought I wa pretty bad ass on the low light stuff before working with Ken. By combining a bunch of his stuff with what I was doing resulted in some pretty wicked low light work and made me a believer in how much you can dominate bad guys with some low light techniques properly selected and used at the right times and conditions.

[orionz06]

I didn't either, it is all good.
Experience plays a lot in this. I have been blessed in that flashlight stuff was critical in both shootings I have been in. Additionally, getting in a massive Internet pissing contest with Ken Good that resulted in me inviting Ken out to teach at a seminar I hosted and we learned a bunch from each other. So I have been the Internet jerk as well and made it a means to continue learning, so we are all good.


Edited to add: I thought I wa pretty bad ass on the low light stuff before working with Ken. By combining a bunch of his stuff with what I was doing resulted in some pretty wicked low light work and made me a believer in how much you can dominate bad guys with some low light techniques properly selected and used at the right times and conditions.

I'd love to see his coursework.

[Shellback]

I'd love to see his coursework.

I think this article (http://www.realfighting.com/content.php?id=126) details a lot of his philosophy.

[Coyotesfan97]

Thanks for the link. That was a great read!

[Chuck Haggard]

The first class I took with Ken was in the late '90s, back when he was running the original Sure-Fire Institute. He has absolutely mastered the development and doctrine of working with white light.
Was one of the bad guys for a run when the instructors did a demo run through a large blacked out building, about a dozen scenarios in a row, he and an adjunct wiped out the entire group one or two at a time. It wasn't even close, it was like they were beating up kids on a playground. Like a lot of people, I didn't know what I didn't know. It was a very humbling week.

[s0nspark]

By combining a bunch of his stuff with what I was doing resulted in some pretty wicked low light work and made me a believer in how much you can dominate bad guys with some low light techniques properly selected and used at the right times and conditions.

As a non-LEO I find this fascinating...

[secondstoryguy]

I'm with Chuck. Having been involved in a ton of lowlight indoor scenarios using simmunitions and playing role-player,I think your pretty much humped if the guys coming to get you know what they are doing. You will hear them coming and see the splashes of light. If the building is totally dark it's very hard to figure out where they are and even harder to hit them. This changes a bit in real life though as you often have ambient light creeping in which can compromise you a bit. Personally I think it's much easier to clear a blacked out building than one that's lit up due to the freedom of movement the darkness gives you.

Light NDs could be an issue during the movement to target but like someone said, when you have 3-6 guys in close to a house generally the BGs know your there or are so out of it a little blip of light ain't going mean much. Inside a light ND doesn't mean anything because your using light techniques for movement.

The worst light NDs are when you have a handheld light on your belt/pocket and it comes on without your knowledge....it's downright embarrassing.

[JustOneGun]

I'm with Chuck. Having been involved in a ton of lowlight indoor scenarios using simmunitions and playing role-player,I think your pretty much humped if the guys coming to get you know what they are doing. You will hear them coming and see the splashes of light. If the building is totally dark it's very hard to figure out where they are and even harder to hit them. This changes a bit in real life though as you often have ambient light creeping in which can compromise you a bit. Personally I think it's much easier to clear a blacked out building than one that's lit up due to the freedom of movement the darkness gives you.

Light NDs could be an issue during the movement to target but like someone said, when you have 3-6 guys in close to a house generally the BGs know your there or are so out of it a little blip of light ain't going mean much. Inside a light ND doesn't mean anything because your using light techniques for movement.

The worst light NDs are when you have a handheld light on your belt/pocket and it comes on without your knowledge....it's downright embarrassing.

This was sort of what I was getting at. I noticed the same thing over a couple of years time frame. How do you think that ambient light compromised them? How many buildings in real life has that ambient light?

I answered the question this way: It dawned on me that if I can sit in the dark and watch the movement with their lights off, then certainly I can shoot them. And when the scenario called for it I did. The only dominance I found by the officers were when they used good search technique. How you physically searched the building made it very hard for me to get them. Even the reaction gap was minimized. Good search technique IS a thing to behold. But I found it is a thing to behold with their flashlight turned on and left on, or they try to firefly. The light didn't seem to matter with my targeting when the scenario called for it. This is where I believe the myth is.

[Chuck Haggard]

I'm not sure what myth you are talking about. Effective use of lighting is as much a tactic as any other tactic. Tactics misapplied or poorly done do not invalidate a given tactic.

[MD7305]

I've read all of this thread and I'm hesitant to respond as I'm a mere lowlight neophyte but here goes. I've witnessed a person I would consider a low-light expert (Strategos instructor) perform lighting techniques to enter a room containing a BG, with one entry point, to totally startle the "bad guy." The BG could see light outside the room's doorway, knew the guy was coming, knew where the only point of entry was and still could not detect the instructor due to the proper use of light (and darkness). Sounds unbelievable, yes, and if I hadn't witnessed it I wouldn't believe it but it definently opened my eyes to effectiveness of their technique. I've used the search and control techniques that they teach with good result. I think the key is practice, like anything else it's perishable.

When I think ND related to light (from a vanilla-patrol cop's POV) I think of things like backlighting approaches to a residence by not killing your headlights, or keeping lights on constant during an approach or search, or a group of officers searching with the lead using intermittent, oscillating light techniques and the #2 or #3 officer using constant on light, back lighting the doodoo out of everyone. Maybe it's situational as others have said. My way of thinking may be off. I think an oopsie ND of light could be rectified by moving. If I'm on an approach/search entending to remain dark and I ND my light, I would change lines, move, displace from where I was originally at the time/place of the ND to a dark place (concealment). I remember in the Strategos class we did an exercise in a dark room with partners (phrasing). I would face my partner (maybe 10-15ft), illuminate my partners (face) with a blip of light, then move off line in any direction. My partner would the point to where they thought I was standing. In almost every instance, of each group I watched, the partner was always wrong about where the illuminator was. The effectiveness was increased even more by positioning the light arm out, up, down, etc. Use two people, with only one illuminating and both moving and it's ninja-level awesome!

My shift one night began discussing light discipline. We did a couple of things to serve as examples such as a someone looking at an iPhone in a cruiser, white and red dome lights, approach with constant light, no light, and intermittent light, lit cigarette, etc. The excerise was an eye opener to some and, in true cop fashion, others cared less.

[orionz06]

I've read all of this thread and I'm hesitant to respond as I'm a mere lowlight neophyte but here goes. I've witnessed a person I would consider a low-light expert (Strategos instructor) perform lighting techniques to enter a room containing a BG, with one entry point, to totally startle the "bad guy." The BG could see light outside the room's doorway, knew the guy was coming, knew where the only point of entry was and still could not detect the instructor due to the proper use of light (and darkness). Sounds unbelievable, yes, and if I hadn't witnessed it I wouldn't believe it but it definently opened my eyes to effectiveness of their technique.

Easy to believe having seen it.

[JustOneGun]

I'm not sure what myth you are talking about. Effective use of lighting is as much a tactic as any other tactic. Tactics misapplied or poorly done do not invalidate a given tactic.

I took myth from the OP. Perhaps that's a bit harsh. Maybe over emphasized? What I disagree with most is a technique that leads a student to believe they can manipulate the light in such a way that a suspect who wants to attack them with some type of force will be somehow hindered in doing so by that light usage technique. If the technique is actually used for someone who does not end up using force on you, well did the technique matter? All that's needed is to find them and a good contact, cover technique in case they change their minds about giving up. Again, if part of what you are calling flashlight technique to dominate a subject is also teaching movement, position and coordination with a partner to search, then I'm right there with you on those topics. I believe those are seriously under emphasized in both police work and the civilian world.

[Jay Cunningham]

This thread has detoured from the original intent, but that's okay because threads go where they will.

I'm considering moving it to the LE Forum.

[Chuck Haggard]

I took myth from the OP. Perhaps that's a bit harsh. Maybe over emphasized? What I disagree with most is a technique that leads a student to believe they can manipulate the light in such a way that a suspect who wants to attack them with some type of force will be somehow hindered in doing so by that light usage technique. If the technique is actually used for someone who does not end up using force on you, well did the technique matter? All that's needed is to find them and a good contact, cover technique in case they change their minds about giving up. Again, if part of what you are calling flashlight technique to dominate a subject is also teaching movement, position and coordination with a partner to search, then I'm right there with you on those topics. I believe those are seriously under emphasized in both police work and the civilian world.


That one can manipulate the lighting to one's advantage and gain a very real edge is not a myth. Just because people normally do it poorly due to inadequate training doesn't make this any less true.

In any building search against an armed adversary I would greatly prefer going into a dark hole than one lit up like high noon. In the former I completely control the light to my advantage. Even in normal real world mixed indoor lighting I can use my control of the light to my advantage.

[JustOneGun]

Gotcha. And of course if I had articulated better we would have agreed to disagree pages ago. Thanks for sticking with me.

Sorry Jay, the diversion was my fault. I'll try to do better. But I am a big mouth so I'm afraid to promise. :)

[Chuck Haggard]

I would agree that lighting can't make up for poor search tactics. But it can greatly enhance them IMHO

[KevinB]

For a normal gal/guy checking their house for a bump in the night, preventing unintentional activation of their WML ranks about equal to not slamming doors and moving without sounding like they have cement blocks for shoes.

There are times to be invisible and times to project overt presence.

Jack's comments bear repeating with the context of the original post.

Personally I feel that Light and Laser ND's are unacceptable - mainly as the consequences of position disclosure are unknown - but that it puts you and yours (be it family, partner, team etc) in a more dangerous position than if the ND had not occurred.

When I was in the Military for a period we treated Light and Laser ND's like a live weapon ND, due to the danger of letting your position being known.
On the LE side, laser (especially IR) ND is not as significant as currently most of bad folks are not running NOD's or HandyCam's on NV mode looking for a beam.
I will say in multi-entity training and operations, one sees a large disturbance in the force wrt to L&L policies


I'm really tired and cranky - so I'm going to cut the rest of my response off at this point.

[Chuck Haggard]

On the flip side, a home owners esconded behind cover and throwing a light and laser down the hall is a no BS "come and get some" show of force that leaves a bad guy no doubt about what they have coming if they decide to not leave in a highly motivated manner.

In low light training we would often use light to pin bad guys in place. It's an effective tactic.

[Tamara]

Personally I feel that Light and Laser ND's are unacceptable - mainly as the consequences of position disclosure are unknown - but that it puts you and yours (be it family, partner, team etc) in a more dangerous position than if the ND had not occurred.

I thought the thread was specifically about CCW weapons outside the home?

While I suppose it's possible to gin up a scenario where I, as Suzy Civilian, am outside my house out in public someplace and lying in wait with a gun in my hand to shoot a dude who is unaware of my position and not get charged with murder, it is unlikely in the extreme.

The odds are strong that I will be reacting to somebody who knows darn well where I am which is why I feel justified in pulling out my gun and pointing it at him in the first place. Light or no is pretty moot there.

[taadski]

I thought the thread was specifically about CCW weapons outside the home?

That was certainly a detail I'd missed if that's the case. The genesis of the thread was from a generic comment I'd made in the "fiber optics on carry guns" thread; specifically regarding DG switches.

[Tamara]

That was certainly a detail I'd missed if that's the case. The genesis of the thread was from a generic comment I'd made in the "fiber optics on carry guns" thread; specifically regarding DG switches.

My bad, then.

Still, I don't get the seeming flat refusal of people to entertain the notion that what's important in a night ambush position in the Hindu Kush is not necessarily what's important to a state trooper writing a ticket on the side of the highway which is in turn not necessarily what's important to some chick getting accosted by a dude in an Atlanta apartment building driveway.

[Dagga Boy]

My bad, then.

Still, I don't get the seeming flat refusal of people to entertain the notion that what's important in a night ambush position in the Hindu Kush is not necessarily what's important to a state trooper writing a ticket on the side of the highway which is in turn not necessarily what's important to some chick getting accosted by a dude in an Atlanta apartment building driveway.

This-for the win. There are huge differences in applications. With that said, each of the above can do things that will be of an advantage to them with white light use (or not to use), and all of them can screw things up and make it worse. One of the biggest benefits to the time I spent with Ken Good is that we both got to take some application stuff away from each others "world" that we could cross apply. The mission application is critical. As Pat Rogers says, "mission drives the gear train", and that also applies to the tactics and applications train.

[KevinB]

My bad, then.

Still, I don't get the seeming flat refusal of people to entertain the notion that what's important in a night ambush position in the Hindu Kush is not necessarily what's important to a state trooper writing a ticket on the side of the highway which is in turn not necessarily what's important to some chick getting accosted by a dude in an Atlanta apartment building driveway.


This-for the win. There are huge differences in applications. With that said, each of the above can do things that will be of an advantage to them with white light use (or not to use), and all of them can screw things up and make it worse. One of the biggest benefits to the time I spent with Ken Good is that we both got to take some application stuff away from each others "world" that we could cross apply. The mission application is critical. As Pat Rogers says, "mission drives the gear train", and that also applies to the tactics and applications train.

Aha I finally figured out multi-quoting.

It is all as I quoted out of Jack (F2S's) comment. Both you and Darryl makes good points, my aim is not to get folks complacent about white light ND's as there is a big difference about accidentally triggering ones light in the bedroom as opposed to walking down a hallway that opens into you main entrance (where your threat may be), and this applies in the LE world as well.

If you're conscientious about when and where to apply light your not going to XXXX it up when needed for real.

We can run warrants till 22:00 (we must knock or enter the doorway by 10pm) - so for certain people to visit, its much easier (officer safety) during low light to surround and prep for entry using NOD's, and all your effort goes to naught if Kick Door Turn Left #2 puts 500 lumens thru the window due to carelessness with the light.
The same goes for late at night trading fire around your car and you are moving to avoid fire and you light yourself up.

To me it is so much easier to instill good L&L discipline for everything than deal with the consequences of inadvertent careless use later, for carelessness becomes a habit - the same with piss poor gun handling.

[Tamara]

To me it is so much easier to instill good L&L discipline for everything than deal with the consequences of inadvertent careless use later, for carelessness becomes a habit - the same with piss poor gun handling.

I see what you are saying now. :cool:

[Dagga Boy]

Trust me, I am not advocating being a dumb ass or careless by any stretch.

[KevinB]

I think we are all on the same page - just the way its articulated on the net is different.

[Stengun]

Howdy,

I'm Ol' Skool so I have never used a PML. Actually I had to stop and think for a second what PML stood for.

Back in the "Day" we where trained that a person holding a flashlight was an easy target. Most people are right handed and hold a flashlight at mid chest level when searching with a light. So, based on this, you guesstimate where COM is at and you blast away.

Same is true with a PML, SML or CML.

Nowadays if I shoot anyone at night it will either be inside my home and I'll be using a 12ga pump w/ "OO" buckshot, or I'll be at the local "Stop-N-Rob". I have LED nightlights throughout my home so no need for a light and at the "Stop-N-Rob" there will be plenty of light there so no need for a firearm mounted light.

A ND from a PML isn't strong enough to effect a person's vision long enough to matter, but it will signal the person's position to everyone in the area.

I just do not see where having a firearm mounted light is a good idea when going against an armed person that intent on killing you. Especially it he is already in the dark room/house/building. This adds another thing to his advantage.

My background: Veteran and PMC

Just my $.02 and your mileage may vary.

Paul

[Tamara]

...but it will signal the person's position to everyone in the area.

If he doesn't know my position already, how is he robbing me?

[Jay Cunningham]

If he doesn't know my position already, how is he robbing me?

You're not supposed to consider the most potentially relevant actual requirements of your own situation.

[Kyle Reese]

I just do not see where having a firearm mounted light is a good idea when going against an armed person that intent on killing you. Especially it he is already in the dark room/house/building. This adds another thing to his advantage.

:confused: :confused::confused:

[KevinB]

Well he is gone now so hopefully the signal to noise ratio drops back down.

[Failure2Stop]

Well he is gone now so hopefully the signal to noise ratio drops back down.

He must have been financially compensated by Advil.
I'm pretty immune to internet silliness; this is the first time that I have actually gotten a headache within the first two sentences of a post in a long time...

[saints75]

I have been using an X300 for years without the DG switch with my cop job. I have not had an ND of light light. The time I did have any type on ND of white light was with the DG switch. I took it off my gun because about 90% of the time my light would go off as I am drawing. The DG switch is nice, but not really needed IMO. I did a low light training exercise at the range and talked about WML. There were a couple of ex SWAT guys on the range staff that agreed with me about the DG switch. If you are going to have a DG switch or and other type of tape switch for your handgun, you need to train with before you go into the field.