CC permit holders apprehends 5 thugs fleeing law enforcement, holds them until the sh

[Bigguy]

CC permit holders apprehends 5 thugs fleeing law enforcement, holds them until the sheriffs chasing them arrive (http://www.fox28iowa.com/news/features/top-stories/stories/update-5-arrested-after-chase-28646.shtml)

[Alpha Sierra]

Gotta love the "sheepdogs".......:rolleyes:

[Shellback]

Gotta love the "sheepdogs".......:rolleyes:

What did they do wrong? Besides helping an injured officer capture 5 fleeing suspects in a neighborhood.

[Alpha Sierra]

What did they do wrong? Besides helping an injured officer capture 5 fleeing suspects in a neighborhood.
I don't go looking to get in other people's fights, so from my POV they did everything wrong.

[Shellback]

I don't go looking to get in other people's fights, so from my POV they did everything wrong.

Cool. Just curious.

[fixer]

awesome story. Good for those guys trying to help out.

[John Hearne]

This discussion is why we are so screwed. Ideally, the actions of the citizens should be lauded and respected. Fifty years ago, nobody would have thought this unusual. However, when someone says "not my problem" - I totally understand. The problem is that we have created a whole long list of reasons to not involve oneself in such a situation.

As long as our society doesn't have disincentives for criminality and instead, create disincentives for stopping criminality, we are headed for the Dark Ages.

[MDS]

As long as our society doesn't have disincentives for criminality and instead, create disincentives for stopping criminality, we are headed for the Dark Ages.

Clearly stated! To truly understand that, I think one needs to detach "criminality" from "illegality." It's getting harder and harder to avoid breaking the law while trying your hardest to Do Good, which is why I can respect Alpha Sierra's stance. On the flip side, many activities I would consider criminal are being protected or even required by law. When criminals can vote just like decent folks, it doesn't take a PhD in game theory to predict society's long-term trajectory...

[Alpha Sierra]

As long as our society doesn't have disincentives for criminality and instead, create disincentives for stopping criminality, we are headed for the Dark Ages.

The Dark Ages would be better than what we have at the present. At least then one doesn't need to worry about legal repercussions when dealing with criminals, unlike today.

[SecondsCount]

Gotta love the "sheepdogs".......:rolleyes:

Not sure what to think about that comment.

In my neck of the woods a guy recently rammed his personal pickup into a vehicle that was going through a park, with kids playing, to stop a fleeing criminal. The community got together to not only fix the citizen's pickup but get him a couple nice upgrades.

There is a time when citizens need to help out but need to use wisdom in doing so.

[Shellback]

In my neck of the woods a guy recently rammed his personal pickup into a vehicle that was going through a park, with kids playing, to stop a fleeing criminal. The community got together to not only fix the citizen's pickup but get him a couple nice upgrades.

There is a time when citizens need to help out but need to use wisdom in doing so.
My kinda community. Personally, if I see a cop in over his head I'm jumping in to help. A prime example of people minding their own business...


http://youtu.be/Q9_Z9W3BfjQ

[Sheep Have Wool]

My personal thought on this is that unless there is some sort of immediate and obvious danger to someone, my job is to 1) make it home to my wife and kid and 2) be a good witness. In that order.

Getting involved in a car chase to go after some guys that are/were in possession of drugs and guns, all so I can end up outnumbered 2v5 seems like a really bad plan. It's not like these guys were in the middle of kidnapping a kid or beating up a cop; they were running.

I'm glad it worked out for these guys, and I don't think they deserve a disparaging remark, but I'm not sure if I would put them on a pedestal as a shining example of behavior to emulate. Suggesting that civilization is doomed without more people becoming part time Batmen....:rolleyes:

[Haraise]

Not sure what to think about that comment.

In my neck of the woods a guy recently rammed his personal pickup into a vehicle that was going through a park, with kids playing, to stop a fleeing criminal. The community got together to not only fix the citizen's pickup but get him a couple nice upgrades.

There is a time when citizens need to help out but need to use wisdom in doing so.

It's interesting to see that the dissociation of helping others, or a sense of community is even so prevalent in self defense circles. Generally, that's associated with the 'tough, no nonsense, personal responsibility' type, yet turning a blind eye has a strong foothold here now. People die on the streets, get abducted, get stabbed, all in front of others. Bystander effect reinforced by a culture moving away from personal responsibility, it seems.

[ford.304]

It's interesting to see that the dissociation of helping others, or a sense of community is even so prevalent in self defense circles. Generally, that's associated with the 'tough, no nonsense, personal responsibility' type, yet turning a blind eye has a strong foothold here now. People die on the streets, get abducted, get stabbed, all in front of others. Bystander effect reinforced by a culture moving away from personal responsibility, it seems.

I personally feel it's a bit of an overreaction to the sheepdog/caped crusader mentality. You really don't want people to treat their CCL as a thug hunting permit. So if you're going to make a general rule, you err on the side of caution. Moreover, people really *do* need to realize how much they don't know about police work and the law, and the danger they are exposing themselves to.

As a member of a community, I'm extremely thankful to all heroes, in or out of uniform, who thought of the safety of their community more than their own preservation.

And on the other hand, I'm not going to take those risks just to recover stolen goods.

[Alpha Sierra]

People die on the streets, get abducted, get stabbed, all in front of others. Bystander effect reinforced by a culture moving away from personal responsibility, it seems.

The majority of people to whom this happens are able bodied adults of sound mind and clean criminal record. That means that they have the ability to obtain the same training and weapons I did, and go through the same licensing process to carry those weapons that I did. And even worse, they live like pollyannas in a fantasy land where nothing bad ever happens to good people.

They chose to NOT do anything of what I have chosen to do to provide for my security. So kitten them. Now they get to suffer the consequences of their choices and inactions.

[TAZ]

The one thing we are missing here is timeline and perspective. I see nothing good coming of CHL holders interjecting themselves into situations they don't understand well. There is a difference between seeing an event unfold and coming on scene at a later time and interjecting yourself.

Personal responsibility is also a 2 way street. If someone hasn't done shit to protect themselves why does that automatically make it my personal responsibility to risk life and limb??

[Sheep Have Wool]

The one thing we are missing here is timeline and perspective. I see nothing good coming of CHL holders interjecting themselves into situations they don't understand well. There is a difference between seeing an event unfold and coming on scene at a later time and interjecting yourself.

Agree. It's one thing to defend myself or others from immediate risk of harm. For example, in the video Irish linked, I'd be yelling at other, specific people nearby to help me restrain the guy fighting the cop. If the bad guy manages to gain control of the cop's gun, then everyone - including me - would be in trouble.

Contrast with this situation: a bunch of dudes are running from a cop. No one is in immediate danger.

[will_1400]

Agree. It's one thing to defend myself or others from immediate risk of harm. For example, in the video Irish linked, I'd be yelling at other, specific people nearby to help me restrain the guy fighting the cop. If the bad guy manages to gain control of the cop's gun, then everyone - including me - would be in trouble.

Contrast with this situation: a bunch of dudes are running from a cop. No one is in immediate danger.

Not necessarily. Criminals on the run have a tendency to rip through almost anyone in their path. That FBI report that was linked on this site shows that if a criminal is trying to avoid prison, they'll do whatever it takes to keep their freedom, even if it means killing everyone in their way.

Personally, I'd probably try to help the police keep track of the suspects, but actively engaging them would be more a last-resort option.

[RoyGBiv]

Bystander effect reinforced by a culture moving away from personal responsibility, it seems.
There are two things that are always in the "No-Go" column when considering transitioning from bystander to involved party.

1. Danger to and obligation to family.
2. Legal repercussions.

Now that my kids are old enough to survive without me, #2 is the bigger influence, assuming the kids are not in the vicinity.

[Sheep Have Wool]

Not necessarily. Criminals on the run have a tendency to rip through almost anyone in their path. That FBI report that was linked on this site shows that if a criminal is trying to avoid prison, they'll do whatever it takes to keep their freedom, even if it means killing everyone in their way.

Personally, I'd probably try to help the police keep track of the suspects, but actively engaging them would be more a last-resort option.

I agree completely, which is why I'm not going to change the situation from "might encounter someone while fleeing" to "definitely going to encounter me." Could they run around the corner and shoot up a school bus full of kids? Sure. But I know something bad is extremely likely to happen if I try to engage them.

As for keeping track of them, ask George Zimmerman how that worked out for him.

[will_1400]

I agree completely, which is why I'm not going to change the situation from "might encounter someone while fleeing" to "definitely going to encounter me." Could they run around the corner and shoot up a school bus full of kids? Sure. But I know something bad is extremely likely to happen if I try to engage them.

As for keeping track of them, ask George Zimmerman how that worked out for him.

Different circumstances in the case listed in the OP. The thugs already proved to be reckless, crashing through a backyard and a child's playhouse (thankfully no one inside), and there were a lot of bystanders in the area. Considering they've already proven they were willing to -or at least apathetic to- cause random people harm to evade police and were actively fleeing from said police, it would be easier to articulate why one stepped in to provide an extra set of eyes.

Not saying that the risk of getting Zimmerman'd isn't there, but different circumstances and the fact Zimmerman made several screw-ups (getting out of his vehicle, making an off-hand comment of "they always get away" which didn't help him) definitely didn't help his case.

[RevolverRob]

Okay here are two scenarios -

I am driving along and notice a police officer with a vehicle pulled over. As I approach the driver/passenger/whatever gets out of the stopped vehicle and starts shooting at the cop and remains there shooting. I will probably ram my vehicle into the attacker's vehicle at a decent rate of speed to stop the attack on the officer at some level (hey might as well use the BIG weapon).

Here's the next scenario, I am driving along and notice a police officer with a vehicle pulled over. As I approach, the driver/passenger/whatever gets out of the stopped vehicle and starts shooting at the cop, the attacker then jumps back in the vehicle and drives away, leaving an injured police officer. This time, I slam on the brakes, stop the car, call the police, go to the officer and check his condition. Kitten the bad guys. Here's what I know the guys that just shot a cop? Will be the most hunted men in the area until they are found and the police cruiser camera recorded the action, I am a witness, and the officer called in or typed in the plate of the vehicle as he stopped it.

There is a time to act aggressive and yank your smokewagon and go to town and there is a time to render aid and if no one is seriously injured in an attack, be a good witness and stay the kitten out of it.

-Rob

[Sheep Have Wool]

Okay here are two scenarios -

<smart stuff>

Yes.

[JodyH]

There's a difference between a "sheepdog" looking for situations to interject themselves into and a citizen getting involved when the situation comes to them.

[RevolverRob]

There's a difference between a "sheepdog" looking for situations to interject themselves into and a citizen getting involved when the situation comes to them.

This!

[will_1400]

There's a difference between a "sheepdog" looking for situations to interject themselves into and a citizen getting involved when the situation comes to them.

Agreed. This is also another dimension that makes the OP different than Zimmerman.

[TGS]

There's a difference between a "sheepdog" looking for situations to interject themselves into and a citizen getting involved when the situation comes to them.

What about when the situation comes to them......and then leaves?

That's how I personally see this situation.

___________________________________________

I'm glad it worked out for the better, but I don't see how it's any different than me chasing a burglar down the street with my gun after I scared him out of my house. Bad, baaad idea. I'm not charged with any powers to actively search for criminals and effectuate their arrest.

Not to mention, trained cops screw up enough stuff......am I seriously to expect myself to do better when forcing my will against another citizen's civil rights? Seriously?

ETA: Where you're at may also play into this. In most of the areas where Americans live, doing such is probably a bad idea. In areas where police response is a significant amount of time, it may be more reasonable for citizens to take action, as with everything in their life due to living conditions they tend to be more self-reliant.

[JodyH]

I'd be a lot more apt to get involved when there's 5 fleeing criminals in MY neighborhood around MY friends and neighbors especially if the only LEO on scene goes down with an injury.
Having an armed friend to assist would be a factor as well.

[will_1400]

I'd be a lot more apt to get involved when there's 5 fleeing criminals in MY neighborhood around MY friends and neighbors especially if the only LEO on scene goes down with an injury.
Having an armed friend to assist would be a factor as well.

Agreed. Better would be being armed oneself, but I give props to the guy who wasn't armed, but jumped in anyways.

[Wendell]

I like this:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vPCqMo9TCg

[WDW]

I've chased down, drawn on, and apprehended criminals in my neighborhood. Glad to have done it.