Feeling as if I failed my student as an instructor today

[rsa-otc]

Today was one of our company range days. Since being first certified in 1979 this is only the third time in 35 years I have taken the gun off a student and thrown them off the range. The two previous incidents both students had pointed a gun at me. One actually succeed in grazing me with a bullet. Today it was different. The student couldn't follow simple directions and the straw that broke the camels back was when he ended up 5 paces in front of the firing line. Now this guy has been with me 3 years and has fired this course 9 times previously. He has been difficult in the past but I had found that acting like a drill instructor got his attention and he would toe the line. Today that didn't make a difference and he became a distraction and a safety hazard.

This has personally unsettled me since I have always felt it is the instructor's job to find a way to get through to the student. It has been at least 30 plus years since I last had to do this when I was a fairly inexperienced instructor. In all my time as an instructor I can count on one hand the number of students I couldn't get to pass any of our Qualification requirements.

Not feeling happy with myself right now even though I know for the rest of my students I did the right thing

[SamuelBLong]

You did the right thing man. Some days people will just not get it. Keep up the good work.

[TGS]

Why beat yourself up over it? The guy sounds like he needs a pink slip as well. The other students deserve your time....not the numpty who either is unable or worse, chooses not to perform.

I personally have little patience for the latter, and am glad to see subpar employees let go. They're an insult to the rest of the good employees who carry the day, and in doing so undermine the retention of good workers. In my opinion, screw the virtuous manuals that say you should be personally invested in making everyone succeed. Reward the winners, trample the weak, and hurdle the dead.

Maybe that's why I'm not an instructor, either.

[Dr. No]

You may think you did him a disservice but it sounds like you did exactly what you needed to do for the safety of all the other students in the class as well as his own.

Just like being DQ'd at a competition, sometimes you need a foot in the ass to think about what you've done and fix it next time. We have to draw the line somewhere, and safety is it.

[SailDesign]

You did the right thing man. Some days people will just not get it. Keep up the good work.

^^ That ^^ It is not your fault he refused to follow instructions. Just like raising children (only worse) it is necessary to remind them that "No" mean "No!" You do not get do-overs in Life.

[SeriousStudent]

You may think you did him a disservice but it sounds like you did exactly what you needed to do for the safety of all the other students in the class as well as his own.

Just like being DQ'd at a competition, sometimes you need a foot in the ass to think about what you've done and fix it next time. We have to draw the line somewhere, and safety is it.

Very much agree. If everyone left the range with the same number of body openings they arrived with, I think you did well in that set of circumstances.

I am reminded of Strother Martin in Cool Hand Luke: "Some men you just can't reach."

[41magfan]

A wise old Police Chief I knew was fond of saying, "You just can't make chicken salad outta chicken schit."

For employees, screw-ups on the range need to be treated just like any other screw-up; progressive discipline based on the severity of the infraction. That could be anything from verbal warnings, time off without pay or termination, if necessary.

Cadets in training get something extra; push-ups in multiples of a hundred. I guess when you spend every moment of your free time during the day pressing the ground you get better focused. I know the onlookers certainly do. We haven't had to exact a harsher penalty than that in a loooooong time.

[Chance]

At some point, it's inevitable that you're going to come across people who simply can't, or choose not to. On top of that, you can't play Mr. Miyagi when there are imminent safety issues. I'm amazed you've had that experience with that few people.

[BaiHu]

I'm all for the way you handled it. As you said, he's been difficult in the past, so it's not his first screw up. This isn't tiddly winks. If he has any sense, he'll reach out to you and try and rectify the situation. If he doesn't, then I'm with the pink slip ASAP. The ball's in his court.

[TCinVA]

Today was one of our company range days. Since being first certified in 1979 this is only the third time in 35 years I have taken the gun off a student and thrown them off the range. The two previous incidents both students had pointed a gun at me. One actually succeed in grazing me with a bullet. Today it was different. The student couldn't follow simple directions and the straw that broke the camels back was when he ended up 5 paces in front of the firing line. Now this guy has been with me 3 years and has fired this course 9 times previously. He has been difficult in the past but I had found that acting like a drill instructor got his attention and he would toe the line. Today that didn't make a difference and he became a distraction and a safety hazard.

This has personally unsettled me since I have always felt it is the instructor's job to find a way to get through to the student. It has been at least 30 plus years since I last had to do this when I was a fairly inexperienced instructor. In all my time as an instructor I can count on one hand the number of students I couldn't get to pass any of our Qualification requirements.

Not feeling happy with myself right now even though I know for the rest of my students I did the right thing

Some people are unteachable. Nothing you can do about that.

[rsa-otc]

Thanks everyone for your support.

[Redhat]

I'd say you're record is pretty good....AND you did anyone who might have to be around this person a favor...including the student.

[ST911]

What does your student say about why he's doing what he's doing?

What kind of learner is he? Learning disability? Some won't "get it", depending on what's going on and how you're delivering the message.

How is his job performance otherwise? Other deficits?

You have an obligation to keep your range and students safe, and that is a first priority. With that however comes this opportunity to truly be a teacher rather than a instructor or qualifier.

[BWT]

From everything you've described. He deserved to go home.

A single incident is one thing; a habit is another.

Complacency kills. In combat. In training. Handling guns that aren't loaded. Carelessness can cost lives. If someone is a regular offender; either they shape up or you excuse them out. I'm a people person, I like everyone feeling good and I love helping people. How I comfort myself from guilt in these situations is simple. They are responsible for their actions; period. They control their fate, they can stop breaking the rules.

But it's not your fault; it's theirs. However bad it feels for you; they're responsible for their actions. You've done a great job RSA.

I broke the 180 slightly at a match. The way the stage was setup I made a mistake on the route I took (there wasn't a route sticks, etc.) Regardless, I should've been sent home. The RO stopped me and told me; he gave me a warning.

I stopped looked him in the eye and apologized and thanked him. A couple of stages later it weighed heavier on me; I stopped him again and just sincerely apologized again.

Should I have DQ'ed myself and gone home; reflecting on it now? Part of me says Yes.

It's nothing personal either; simply, it is what it is. Nobody's above being safe.

Good work!

[tremiles]

In addition to hopefully teaching him a lesson by booting him off the range, you taught ALL YOUR OTHER STUDENTS a lesson by booting him off the range.

[Jack Ryan]

You called it right.

ANYONE I'm working with, hunting, on the range, teaching, or LEARNING from, if I find myself looking down the barrel of their gun they are done for the day or if I'm in their home court I'm done. Don't matter to me if they are 8 years old or 80.

You can make just about any mistake and call it lucky, no one was hurt, so long as that gun is not pointed at a person and especially that it's not pointed at ME.

[JRB]

If that student has made a habit of playing fast and loose with fundamental rules as well as your instructions, and he's skated by while doing that in the past, it's very likely that kicking him off the range as you did was the only action you could take that had any chance of getting his attention and actually encouraging or stimulating a change in his attitude & behavior.

[LSP972]

Thanks everyone for your support.

Look at it this way… some people were simply meant to sell shoes.

The fact that such folks get hired as gun toters is an unfortunate fact of life.

You, as an instructor, have three areas of responsibility; to your agency, to your fellow troops, and to yourself. Dumping a hazardous individual covers all three with one rock.

IOW, don't beat yourself up over it. You cannot make gold from lead.

.

[Dagga Boy]

Look at it this way… some people were simply meant to sell shoes.

The fact that such folks get hired as gun toters is an unfortunate fact of life.

You, as an instructor, have three areas of responsibility; to your agency, to your fellow troops, and to yourself. Dumping a hazardous individual covers all three with one rock.

IOW, don't beat yourself up over it. You cannot make gold from lead.

.

BINGO. I would also add that if something tragic had happened this post would be about how bad you felt because you saw the problem but thought you could work through it.

Some of the things I took the greatest pride in was saving a few officers jobs (all females) because they couldn't qualify and everyone else was done with them. I got them last. All of them were fairly easily turned around with a few tweaks. In all of these cases I worked my tail off because the officers really wanted to succeed. They were good students who in most cases simply had pistols that were too big and nobody else would buck the system and get some exceptions made to get them properly sized guns (P-225's and Glock 19's fixed the issue), and another who nobody realized was left handed.......through multiple agencies and academies, nobody figured this out...:confused:? Then there were a couple that not only couldn't I fix, but had zero interest in working with them. They didn't, couldn't, wouldn't or didn't care to learn and were "bad students". I had no issues with that and certainly didn't feel like a failure. Sometimes you can't fix stupid, and the reality is the best thing you can do is send them to another place where they can't hurt themselves or others.

On a last note. There can also be some medical issues with these things. Bad medication combo, heat distress, dehydration, sleep deprived, etc. I have fallen victims to these myself. In those cases your primary responsibility as an instructor is to ground them.

[Mike Pipes]

My experience with you is that you CARE! That is why you did what you did and why you are feeling the way you feel.Looking forward to more training with you in the future.......CYA MIKE

[rsa-otc]

On a last note. There can also be some medical issues with these things. Bad medication combo, heat distress, dehydration, sleep deprived, etc. I have fallen victims to these myself. In those cases your primary responsibility as an instructor is to ground them.

Yes that's something I'm going to be discussing with this gentleman here shortly.

Earlier this year I had seen some serious deterioration in another older employee. Getting lost in the middle of strings of fire etc. Nothing unsafe but for him unusual. 30 days later he and his wife resigned, come to find out he was in the early stages of dementia. It was a day to day thing for him and that particular range day was a bad one.

The employee I had to deal with this past Saturday is retired Corrections, retired Army reserve, and while difficult in getting him to change old bad habits into new good habits, he was previously never unsafe or a major distraction, just difficult/frustrating as a student. Saturday his gun handling was not unsafe and in fact he had earlier that morning passed our annual written test with a 94% and his scores on the courses of fire were respectable. It was as if he couldn't hear the line commands even with Electronic Earpro. I was continually shouting at him to get the right actions from him and it was becoming a major distraction to the other students. He was looking up and down the line to see what everyone else was doing. I pulled him aside twice asking him if there was a problem and telling him to get his head in the game. The final straw was when he ended up 5 steps in front of the line/other students during a string of fire, that was the end of his day.

[41magfan]

Yes that's something I'm going to be discussing with this gentleman here shortly.

Earlier this year I had seen some serious deterioration in another older employee. Getting lost in the middle of strings of fire etc. Nothing unsafe but for him unusual. 30 days later he and his wife resigned, come to find out he was in the early stages of dementia. It was a day to day thing for him and that particular range day was a bad one.

The employee I had to deal with this past Saturday is retired Corrections, retired Army reserve, and while difficult in getting him to change old bad habits into new good habits, he was previously never unsafe or a major distraction, just difficult/frustrating as a student. Saturday his gun handling was not unsafe and in fact he had earlier that morning passed our annual written test with a 94% and his scores on the courses of fire were respectable. It was as if he couldn't hear the line commands even with Electronic Earpro. I was continually shouting at him to get the right actions from him and it was becoming a major distraction to the other students. He was looking up and down the line to see what everyone else was doing. I pulled him aside twice asking him if there was a problem and telling him to get his head in the game. The final straw was when he ended up 5 steps in front of the line/other students during a string of fire, that was the end of his day.

I can't speak for anyone else, but if your original post had elaborated with all of these facts my previous post would have been quite different.

There's a huge difference between those that can't do something and those that won't; it’s part and parcel of the skill or will argument. Regardless of the cause, you did this guy a favor by pulling him off the range as he was a danger to himself and others. I would also question the wisdom in letting him carry a gun at all in a critical application.

I worked for a Sheriff once so encountering folks that "can’t" was fairly routine, believe me. Telling someone they no longer have (or never had) the ability to perform certain tasks is tough but it goes with the territory.

[Alpha Sierra]

It was as if he couldn't hear the line commands even with Electronic Earpro. I was continually shouting at him to get the right actions from him and it was becoming a major distraction to the other students. He was looking up and down the line to see what everyone else was doing. I pulled him aside twice asking him if there was a problem and telling him to get his head in the game. The final straw was when he ended up 5 steps in front of the line/other students during a string of fire, that was the end of his day.
He could very well have lost enough of his hearing cause the issues you describe. See if you can have him submit to visual and auditory acuity tests. The fact that he was looking for visual cues about what to do reinforces my opinion about his problem and also indicates that he wanted to perform and was trying to find a way without causing a public scene.

[TGS]

Yes that's something I'm going to be discussing with this gentleman here shortly.

Earlier this year I had seen some serious deterioration in another older employee. Getting lost in the middle of strings of fire etc. Nothing unsafe but for him unusual. 30 days later he and his wife resigned, come to find out he was in the early stages of dementia. It was a day to day thing for him and that particular range day was a bad one.

The employee I had to deal with this past Saturday is retired Corrections, retired Army reserve, and while difficult in getting him to change old bad habits into new good habits, he was previously never unsafe or a major distraction, just difficult/frustrating as a student. Saturday his gun handling was not unsafe and in fact he had earlier that morning passed our annual written test with a 94% and his scores on the courses of fire were respectable. It was as if he couldn't hear the line commands even with Electronic Earpro. I was continually shouting at him to get the right actions from him and it was becoming a major distraction to the other students. He was looking up and down the line to see what everyone else was doing. I pulled him aside twice asking him if there was a problem and telling him to get his head in the game. The final straw was when he ended up 5 steps in front of the line/other students during a string of fire, that was the end of his day.

We currently have 2 employees in this sort of predicament. One is in another division, but one being mine, when staff complained that this employee couldn't lift a stretcher with a patient and actually gave out, dropping the stretcher to the ground.

Our course of action with such issues is extremely cut and dry, as it's an HR nightmare.....especially when the person is of a protected class and just came out of a medical leave of absence. They have to see a doctor, and be evaluated as to whether they're fit for duty; we have zero say, input, or discretion whatsoever in the process. The most dangerous thing you can do, IMO, is be compassionate and talk to the person about their potential disability/physical problem. Fatal error....because now you know about their issue, and they can (and most likely will) say that you discriminated against them. Of course, if the doc clears them, then it becomes a performance issue that we can address with an action plan or progressive discipline.


*not lecturing at all buddy, just sharing my experiences on my surprise when doing what we feel is the right thing has landed me in hot water

ETA: Regardless of whether it was an intentional suckfest or disability related, the employee still needs to be removed from the working environment for everyone's safety. In your case, because someone is going to get holes put in them. In my case, because when we come to fix the holes that See No Evil and Hear No Evil put into each other, we can't risk hurting them more. Misreading sedatives and paralytics and performing an inadvertent rapid sequence intubation usually is not a good end to the shift.