Russian Arms Ban

[TGS]

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/07/foghorn/breaking-obama-administration-bans-import-izhmash-kalashnikov-saiga-firearms/

I wonder if it will ever be rescinded.

Time to fund your retirement accounts, boys and girls. It's about to be a seller's market.

[YVK]

I wanna Belgium sanctions. Maybe Belgiumanians will do something nasty. I have a couple of SCARs I don't use that much, and I wonder if I can sell them high and buy a Porsche. Unless there are sanctions against Germanians by then 'cause they keep buying Russian gas, making other sanctions largely useless.

[Suvorov]

Well, I kept wanting to drop the $$$ on a real Russian AK - I guess I'll have to make do with my Bulgarian.....

Hats off to anyone who had the coin and foresight to buy a couple extras before hand. I just ended up paying an inflated price to get a arm braced AR, I'm done for the year :(

[YVK]

So far there are no ammo manufacturers on Tres. Dept. site. That would be a more painful hit than blocking Saigas.

[TheTrevor]

I'm much more worried about bans on ammo imports. That would be devastating to the barely-recovered ammo market.

[Suvorov]

So far there are no ammo manufacturers on Tres. Dept. site. That would be a more painful hit than blocking Saigas.


I'm much more worried about bans on ammo imports. That would be devastating to the barely-recovered ammo market.

Agreed, but the fact that you could go and buy REAL Kalashnikovs from Russia is one of those things that was nothing but a pipe dream back when Klinton passed the 1994 AWB. It is kind of like the end of the "good old days" and a harbinger of more bad things to come.

[Kyle Reese]

On the plus side, shouldn't this bold move force the Russians out of eastern Ukraine?

[ffhounddog]

On the plus side, shouldn't this bold move force the Russians out of eastern Ukraine?

Funny...that is just hilarious.

[orionz06]

I am not an AK guy, tell me what this really means? Doesn't the bulk of the AK's, quality negated, come to us from places other than Russia?

[LittleLebowski]

On the plus side, shouldn't this bold move force the Russians out of eastern Ukraine?

Well played, sir.

[Matt O]

I am not an AK guy, tell me what this really means? Doesn't the bulk of the AK's, quality negated, come to us from places other than Russia?

I'm not an AK expert either, but I believe there were basically two options for good quality imported AK's - Russian and Bulgarian. Bulgarian AK's are basically all manufactured by Arsenal BG, whereas there are, I believe, a couple different Russian manufacturers, Izhmash (makes Saiga rifles/shotguns) and Molot (makes VEPR rifles/shotguns). So, as the legislation only seems to reference the former, I wonder if VEPR's are about to become the only legal Russian import offering.

[breakingtime91]

I'm not an AK expert either, but I believe there were basically two options for good quality imported AK's - Russian and Bulgarian. Bulgarian AK's are basically all manufactured by Arsenal BG, whereas there are, I believe, a couple different Russian manufacturers, Izhmash (makes Saiga rifles/shotguns) and Molot (makes VEPR rifles/shotguns). So, as the legislation only seems to reference the former, I wonder if VEPR's are about to become the only legal Russian import offering.


If anyone is seriously worried, Polish rifles have been very good to me.

[BaiHu]

On the plus side, shouldn't this bold move force the Russians out of eastern Ukraine?
Let's see:
1. We've made politically unsafe oil more unsafe with our foreign policy in the ME, so that helps the Russians.
2. We've been completely inept in handling any foreign affairs in Asia, so that weakness also helps the Russians.
3. Most OPEC nations are floundering, leaving Russia with a good solid cornering of the energy market in Europe, which enriches Russia.

Nope, you're right Fred, Ukraine is safer now without the Russians ability to sell Izhmash to Eric Holder and the FnF program ;)

ETA: Bonus subplot, how does this effect the ghetto and immigration?

[iakdrago]

I'm not an AK expert either, but I believe there were basically two options for good quality imported AK's - Russian and Bulgarian. Bulgarian AK's are basically all manufactured by Arsenal BG, whereas there are, I believe, a couple different Russian manufacturers, Izhmash (makes Saiga rifles/shotguns) and Molot (makes VEPR rifles/shotguns). So, as the legislation only seems to reference the former, I wonder if VEPR's are about to become the only legal Russian import offering.

I believe MOLOT the manufacturer of VEPR rifles is now under the umbrella of Kalashnikov Concern group. So basically all Russian built Ak's are subject to the import ban.

[iakdrago]

I believe MOLOT the manufacturer of VEPR rifles is now under the umbrella of Kalashnikov Concern group. So basically all Russian built Ak's are subject to the import ban.

Would not let me edit it.

"THE COMPANY COMPRISES

• JSC ‘NPO ‘IZHMASH’, Udmurt Republic
• JSC ‘Izhevski mashzavod’, Udmurt Republic
• ‘Koshkin Automatic line design bureau’ JSC, Moscow Region
• ‘Klimov Special Ammunition Plant’, Moscow Region
• JSC ‘NITI Progress’, Udmurt Republic
• JSC ‘Molot’, Udmurt Republic
• JSC ‘Izhevsky Mekhanichesky Zavod’, Udmurt Republic"
Source: http://rostec.ru/en/about/company/165.

What this means to me personally:

I wish that I did not sell my SGL.
I won't get to shoot the civilian version of the balanced recoil AK that was supposed to make its way here in the near future.
I won't get to shoot the civilian version the Vityaz, which was going to be my first SBR project.

[Tamara]

Not being into 922(r) workaround AK conversions or jammomatic shotguns, I'm mostly worried about the potential for ammo makers being added to the list.

I've got enough 7.62x54R to last a couple zombie apocalypses, but I'd hate to not be able to run to Wally World and grab a few boxes of TulAmmo if I realize I underplanned my needs on day two of a class in Smallville, USA.

[LOKNLOD]

ETA: Bonus subplot, how does this effect the ghetto and immigration?

Now we will have to encourage illegals to sneak us Russian guns across the southern border, which will then result in increases in ghetto population?


I'm mostly worried about the potential for ammo makers being added to the list.

This. I'm afraid to go look at 7.62x39 prices right now.

[TheTrevor]

Prices for steel case 7.62x39 remain low on gunbot.net.

http://gunbot.net/ammo/rifle/762x39/

I've found that to be a good barometer of ammo pricing and availability. When the great 5.45 import panic hit you could watch the whole thing unfold by refreshing the 5.45x39 page at gunbot.

[TheTrevor]

Also, this is definitely tipping me towards getting an old-school rifle in 6.5 Swede or 7.5 Swiss at some point.

[Kyle Reese]

Also, this is definitely tipping me towards getting an old-school rifle in 6.5 Swede or 7.5 Swiss at some point.

Do it. :)

[BWT]

Well...

My SGL21-71 just became a collector's item.

Dang it.

[Matt O]

I believe MOLOT the manufacturer of VEPR rifles is now under the umbrella of Kalashnikov Concern group. So basically all Russian built Ak's are subject to the import ban.

Hmm, it looks like you're right, Molot does appear to be owned by Izhmash. Oh well, looks like Arsenal AK's will be in even higher demand now.

[Tamara]

Do it. :)

I know, right? How much tipping does it take to make that call? :D

[LHS]

Makes me wish I'd bought a few more VEPR12 shotguns when they were down to $750 each

[Corey]

I really wish I owned more than one each Saiga rifle and shotgun.

[TGS]

Makes me wish I'd bought a few more VEPR12 shotguns when they were down to $750 each

Just before the Newtown shooting you could could VEPR rifles for $499 from Centerfire Systems, and unconverted Saiga's for $299.

:(

ETA: Do you guys think any American companies will pick up the slack? I can see a business opportunity here for quality American made AKs, given they won't have the Russian's undercutting them.

[Hooper]

ETA: Do you guys think any American companies will pick up the slack? I can see a business opportunity here for quality American made AKs, given they won't have the Russian's undercutting them.

Seems like a good opportunity for Beretta to release the 7.62x39 version of their ARX sooner rather than later.

Or Arsenal could pick up the slack.

I suspect the $1000+ Kalashnikov market in the US is fairly miniscule, regardless, even though I dabble there.

One issue about US made AKs is the lack of a hammer forged barrel. For that reason I wouldn't buy one, personally, as it kind of defeats the purpose of owning a Kalashnikov for me, for it's to hell and back design parameters.

Although not all combloc hammer forged barrels are created equal. I'm sure some US firm could make a great AK barrel if the market supported such.

[Jeep]

Also, this is definitely tipping me towards getting an old-school rifle in 6.5 Swede or 7.5 Swiss at some point.

My only disagreement with that statement is your use of the word "or." Don't you mean "and?"

[Tamara]

My only disagreement with that statement is your use of the word "or." Don't you mean "and?"

So let it be written, so let it be done.

[LHS]

So let it be written, so let it be done.

So say we all.

[RevolverRob]

ETA: Do you guys think any American companies will pick up the slack? I can see a business opportunity here for quality American made AKs, given they won't have the Russian's undercutting them.

Not really? I love AKs as much as the next guy, but given the literal dead-cat swinging plethora of AR15s, with the exception of maybe-soon-to-be-gone cheap 7.62x39 and now-gone cheap 5.45x39 is there a really good reason to go AK over AR15? Everytime I think about buying an AK, I remind myself I have a box full of AR15 magazines. It's not that I want to be pragmatic, but it's just so dang hard to not be when it comes to dropping a lot of coin on these platforms.

Flip this around - How is it going to affect Troy Industries?


Seems like a good opportunity for Beretta to release the 7.62x39 version of their ARX sooner rather than later.

Or Arsenal could pick up the slack.

I suspect the $1000+ Kalashnikov market in the US is fairly miniscule, regardless, even though I dabble there.

I'd definitely be interested in the Beretta. I suspect if the Bulgarians act fast, money can be made and I agree the $1000+ AK market is small - high-end Arsenals, VEPRs, and a handful of custom folks are the players there, I just don't see the demand increasing. Were 922(r) Saiga conversions that popular?



One issue about US made AKs is the lack of a hammer forged barrel. For that reason I wouldn't buy one, personally, as it kind of defeats the purpose of owning a Kalashnikov for me, for it's to hell and back design parameters.

Although not all combloc hammer forged barrels are created equal. I'm sure some US firm could make a great AK barrel if the market supported such.

Not being a big AK guy, can you elaborate on the preference for hammer forged barrels? Would a well made stock removal barrel not work for some reason?

-Rob

[Tamara]

My only disagreement with that statement is your use of the word "or." Don't you mean "and?"

It just occurred to me that I can't remember if I currently own one or two K31s, and I can't be arsed to go check. Wow, it's like Schrödinger's gun safe up in here!

#firstworldproblems :D

[Tamara]

I'd definitely be interested in the Beretta.

Dude, if the Berettas run as advertised, they stand to grab a big bunch of market share on the simple fact that they're the first "Post-AR" rifle to sell for less than the cost of an LE 6920 + accessories.

[TGS]

Not really? I love AKs as much as the next guy, but given the literal dead-cat swinging plethora of AR15s, with the exception of maybe-soon-to-be-gone cheap 7.62x39 and now-gone cheap 5.45x39 is there a really good reason to go AK over AR15?

Absolutely. The AK is a fine carbine that serves well for what most people want and/or need....for most peoples' wants/needs it comes down to personal preference when deciding AR15 vs AK. Plenty of people like AKs, and the growth of the AR15 market has not stopped that.

As for the ammo.....again, companies will not have to worry about the Russian's undercutting them. If the market has a vacuum, someone will fill the vacuum. I imagine MFS (Hungary) can still import their relabeled Russian ammo, and I imagine Armscor (Philippines) or Aguila (Mexico) wouldn't mind repackaging Russian ammo in the mean-time, either.

And if they can't, someone will produce it. The Russian's were known for cheap ammo because they had the market locked down to begin with, making it hard for others to get a market share. Any third world or developing country can produce ammo that cheap...and if there's opportunity to make money, someone will try to make money.

I'm sticking to my guns (wicked pun) that there is a fairly large business opportunity for an entrepreneur in arms manufacture or munitions manufacture. If they were domestic, even better, because one of the notable reservations people had about purchasing Russian wares (MOLOT in particular) was market support/stability from a foreign manufacturer.

[TheTrevor]

So say we all.

I now to the wisdom of my betters.

Might have to take a back seat to pistol purchases in 2014, though, as Gov Brown just signed the death warrant ending our legal means of bypassing the oppressive and likely unconstitutional CA Handgun Roster. Takes effect 1 Jan 2015.

[will_1400]

So let it be written, so let it be done.

And now I have Metallica's "Creeping Death" stuck in my head. Thanks for the earworm.

[Hooper]

Grea points, TGS.


Not being a big AK guy, can you elaborate on the preference for hammer forged barrels? Would a well made stock removal barrel not work for some reason?

It depends on what you want out of the rifle, but a standard button rifled barrel on an AK can serve well enough for some.

It's just, when I look closely at the design of a Kalashnikov, and compare it to something like an AR-15, the Kalashnikov is fundamentally different. It's more like an anvil where the AR-15 is a scalpel. The Kalashnikov doesn't need much if any maintenance during its usable lifetime (which is finite, use of worn out and shot out AKs in the third world to the contrary). If you put a hammer forged barrel on it, which is made by the process that produces the longest lived barrels, you know you can push and push and push that AK and it's pretty much going to be serviceable in accuracy and reliability for as long as you're going to want it to be.

Remember that rifle barrels don't last as long as pistol barrels, due to their higher pressures, longer bores, and slower burning powders that keep the heat on the rifling hotter and longer. The rifling wears away at the throat and muzzle by erosion over time.

If I don't have that knowledge about my AK being built like an absolute tank, I lose motivation for wanting to own it when my AR-15s or something else (Steyr AUG, Beretta ARX, etc) brings a lot more capability for precision to the table, and is a much easier design on which to install or replace a barrel. At that point the AK loses enough of its claim to fame, while retaining all of its crudeness, to make me not interested.

But my interest in the AK is only marginal to begin with. I'm probably going to get out during the next selling opportunity, as it is.

ETA: this is a decent read:

http://www.lasc.us/RangingShotBarrelMakingFeature.htm

[TGS]

I've become less convinced that what type of process is important, re: CHF vs not.

A CHF barrel from manufacturer A does not mean it will perform anywhere near the CHF barrel from manufacturer B. I view CHF as a marketing term more than anything. A CHF barrel can easily perform worse than a non-CHF barrel. Ex: BCM/Pat Rogers' Filthy 14 was a regular barrel, not their CHF, and it still shot 4 MOA out to 40,000 rounds.

Likewise, I would not expect a Combloc CHF barrel to perform anything like an HK CHF barrel, where a 10" 416 still shot 1 MOA after 15,000 rounds in stateside testing. I wouldn't expect a license built G3 or HK33 to have as good a CHF barrel as their German counterpart, either.

It's all about what accuracy spec you're willing to pay for. One of the reasons the HK417 has such varied opinions/results on accuracy is that there are over 20 different build standards.....so, as witnessed by various government's testing, even within a specific manufacturer and within a specific platform, you can still have significant differences in the performances of their barrels.

In the end, "CHF barrel" by itself doesn't really mean anything.

[Hooper]

Yeah, I already alluded to as much earlier, although I disagree in part about the meaning of the process, and was never discussing all this in terms of accuracy when new, but rather usable accurate life (i.e. number of rounds you can fire before it is shot out and become unacceptably inaccurate).



Although not all combloc hammer forged barrels are created equal. I'm sure some US firm could make a great AK barrel if the market supported such.

To clarify, I was assuming Arsenal or Izmash for purposes of my discussion, both of which make great barrels for AKs, neither of which are matched by any domestic mass produced offerings for longevity, yet. I'm an engineer, so am just as disinterested in propagating the typical kind of oversimplification that is common on gun boards like "hammer forged=awesome and button rifled=junk" as you are.

Of course everything man-made is built to a price point. But just because you can find poor quality hammer forged barrels and excellent button rifled barrels doesn't mean that the process differences are meaningless. It just means that someone using a superior process to accomplish a certain goal (say, accurate bore life) negated the advantages of that process by messing something else up like steel selection, blank preparation, or equipment maintenance and operation. But hammer forging work hardens the bore surface in a way that button rifling cannot match. All else being equal that gives your rifling more usable life.

One can acknowledge that without being dismissive of button rifled or cut rifled barrels (at least for other applications), though. Those processes can make for probably more accurate barrels with less stresses, etc., at a price point that the market will support, and work in stainless steels that cannot be hammer forged well. Personally my favorite AR-15 has a button rifled, hand lapped stainless steel barrel made by Noveske (Pac-Nor) that I installed myself. It's a superb barrel. Do I expect it to have an accurate lifespan equal to a high quality hammer forged barrel, especially if I dish out a lot of rapid fire and abuse? Of course not. Do I need that much precision in a lightweight profile Kalashnikov barrel that is going to whip all over the place anyway, and be tossed to and fro by the heavy gas system? No, so I'll take as much longevity as I can get. But that's just my personal preference. And no, I wouldn't sneer at a very high quality button rifled AK barrel if someone made one.

[TGS]

To clarify, I was assuming Arsenal or Izmash for purposes of my discussion, both of which make great barrels for AKs, neither of which are matched by any domestic mass produced offerings for longevity, yet.

Do you have supporting evidence for this statement?

[JRB]

Economies of scale and currency exchange rates were in our favor when it came to the quality of AK-based rifles from Molot, Izmash, etc. Without those advantages along with the warm-fuzzies of buying a bona-fide Russian-made AK, I doubt a replacement on the market will come to pass as a viable contender.
Arsenal attempted to uproot it's Bulgarian operation & relocated to Las Vegas to make it US-made "enough" to satisfy the demand for high-end Bulgarian AK's that didn't suffer from the '94 AWB's brutal disfigurement.
Still, the 100% Bulgarian rifles like the SA-93 and SLR-95 are coveted and considered by many to be at the top end of the AK's available to us in the US. Others still trumpet the pre-89 Chinese models such as the Polytech Legend.
A common theme is a distaste for rifles built from an amalgam of US and imported parts, as the US made parts are almost always inferior. The Tapco G2 trigger group is a rare exception to that, but it's still not as good as some of the early Chinese FCG's on pre-89 AK's. Similar cliques and divisions in opinion can be found everywhere in the AR world and in far greater variety.

While blocking importation of Saigas is a sad thing for most US buyers of AK's, it'll be very damaging for the Kalashnikov group as a whole because civilian export sales account for a substantial percentage of their business - I've seen numbers between 40% and 70% but I've found precious little to substantiate any number over another. It does however, stand to reason given the simple number of firearms pouring into this country.
Saigas in sporter-configuration are by far the highest quality AK pattern firearm available to most of the ban states, if they aren't the only models available, period. Saigas also served as the basis for the higher-end AK's available in the states once de-banned with a minimum number of US made parts per 922(r). In Saiga conversions, the US made parts are usually the FCG (3 parts) a gas piston (1 part) and the muzzle device (1 part). Others will work around the need for a US made gas piston or muzzle device by using US made furniture.

Regardless, it's regrettable and it'll be a huge blow to shooters and military collectors with an interest in a Russian AK.

Another factor to consider is that for folks like myself that enjoy shooting a lot of ammo through AK's of various flavors, the only way to get a Russian-made CHF chrome-lined barrel into the country was if it were part of a legal, fully assembled sporting rifle like the VEPR or Saiga. Because MG parts kits haven't been able to enter the US with an intact barrel since '04 or '05, and thereby loose AK barrels, used or new, completely machined or not, have generally been banned from import as an 'implement of war', there's an even greater need for a very real high-end AK barrel to match those parts kits for home builders as well as to provide a high-end US made AK of truly comparable quality.

With the exit of Saigas and VEPR's from the market, the only three remaining sources of AK's with CHF chrome-lined barrels made on the bona-fide AK military tooling are through Arsenal and the Romanian-made AK's that are simply 922(r)'d like the WASR-10/63, AES-10b, and M&M M10. Which, given the random alphabet soup of McNonsense they're sold under, are all too easily confused for the Century-made chopshop guns that use usually inferior receivers and always far inferior US made barrels, such as the GP1975 or M1964, which are assembled by Century Arms on imported front & rear trunnions with imported gas blocks and FSB's and misc other small bits, but on a US receiver with a US FCG, US barrel, and misc other US parts, such as gas pistons or furniture, depending on the model.
Century currently also offers a 100% US made AK with a milled receiver called the C39 - I've read good things, a friend has said good things - but it still doesn't have a CHF chrome lined barrel.

Which makes the two best bets for an affordable AK rifle that's built as an AK 'should be' built are the WASR 10/63 and other Cugir-made AK's, and Zastava's line of various AK variants sold under variations of the 'PAP' moniker. such as N-PAP, O-PAP, or PAP M92. The Zastava guns are of a slightly different pattern than the typical AKM stuff, and take different furniture and have dimensional differences as a result, but take the same magazines. In keeping with Yugo standards, the barrels are CHF but not chrome-lined, because they were meant to be fired with M67 7.62x39 which uses a brass casing and a copper-jacketed bullet. Because of the copper jacketing, it was believed that a chrome-lined barrel wasn't necessary. Since chrome lining is more about resisting corrosion, and the Yugo M67 was very consistent and effective, but corrosive, most Yugo AK parts kits have barrels that look like a sewer pipe. Being that 99+% of the 7.62x39 ammo on the market today isn't corrosive, it's a non-issue for us because the Zastava AK's are brand new rifles with brand new CHF barrels, and we'll likely only feed them commercial non-corrosive ammo.


Do you have supporting evidence for this statement?

Not a single US barrel manufacturer offers a cold hammer forged AK barrel, chrome lined or not. US made barrels are universally softer than those CHF barrels made by foreign arsenals such as Cugir, Arsenal, or Zastava, and as such US made barrels tend to deteriorate around two to three times the rate of a CHF barrel when fed a steady diet of bimetal jacketed 7.62x39.
While swapping out the barrel on an AR involves a wrench and a few functioning synapses, swapping out a barrel on an AK involves extensive use of a hydraulic press in addition to chamfering and reaming tools of various natures, in addition to having to carefully set the headspace before once again using a large hydraulic press with specific tooling to press in a new barrel pin and then rivet the front trunnion into the receiver.
As such, barrel quality is paramount if you're wanting an AK for the 'long haul' and US makers of AK's are far more interested in keeping a viable profit margin than making a barrel that'll cost 2-3x the cost of a simple chrome-lined barrel from Green Mountain. Trying to make a $500-600 rifle into a $700-800 one and hoping it'll sell well by touting a longer operational lifespan is a dead end in the US market. Most folks and shooters would prefer to buy the cheaper AK and the single 1000rnd case of ammo it'd ever shoot.
As noted elsewhere in this thread, the market for $800-1000+ AK's is much smaller than the $500-600 Cawadooty convert & tacticool market.

Bottom line, without the economic advantages of the exchange rate going for us, and importing Saigas, quality AK's in the US will be that much harder to find. For anyone that shoots in volume, I'd recommend a Zastava AK such as the O-PAP (which being the Yugoslavian pattern will look very familiar to anyone that's seen Iraqi AK's) and the Cugir-made WASR 10/63's.
Meanwhile, anyone with a Saiga or VEPR has a decently hot commodity right now.
Being that the Russians are interested in continuing to sell those civilian model rifles to the US and elsewhere, I wouldn't be surprised at all to see a massive corporate re-structuring & re-naming game put into effect to dissolve the Kalashnikov concern and every other named subsidiary on that list, with the intention of getting around the by-name import ban.

From what I understand, similar corporate shenanigans in China that got rid of the names Polytech and Norinco from the firearms involved are how all the Catamount Fury 12ga semiauto AK's and other Chinese-made shotguns started coming into the country a few years back. The same might hold true for Russian AK variants in the future. At least, I hope.

[TGS]

First off, thanks for the great info. I'm going to pry some more from you....



Not a single US barrel manufacturer offers a cold hammer forged AK barrel, chrome lined or not. US made barrels are universally softer than those CHF barrels made by foreign arsenals such as Cugir, Arsenal, or Zastava, and as such US made barrels tend to deteriorate around two to three times the rate of a CHF barrel when fed a steady diet of bimetal jacketed 7.62x39.

So numerically, what are we looking at for a typical US made barrel compared to a CHF from Cugir, Aresenal or Zastava?


As such, barrel quality is paramount if you're wanting an AK for the 'long haul' and US makers of AK's are far more interested in keeping a viable profit margin than making a barrel that'll cost 2-3x the cost of a simple chrome-lined barrel from Green Mountain.

Why does a quality barrel have to cost 2-3x a Green Mountain? Quality non-CHF barrels that last 40,000+ rounds for the higher-pressure 5.56 AR15 are available in plentiful droves for decent prices. What factors are different that prevent such for the 7.62x39 AK? Would this also apply to the 5.45, 5.56, 7.62x51 and 7.62x54R AKs?


As noted elsewhere in this thread, the market for $800-1000+ AK's is much smaller than the $500-600 Cawadooty convert & tacticool market.


Well, obviously. That still didn't stop all the premium AK manufacturers from making a buck and even expanding over the last couple years, so I don't understand why BCM or "insert-favorite-manufacturer-here" couldn't fill in the gap.

[Tamara]

Trying to make a $500-600 rifle into a $700-800 one and hoping it'll sell well by touting a longer operational lifespan is a dead end in the US market.

In what market is it not?

[JRB]

So numerically, what are we looking at for a typical US made barrel compared to a CHF from Cugir, Aresenal or Zastava?

It's difficult to find data from folks that keep accurate round counts among the sorts of people to buy a crappy $500 AK when decent $500 AK's are available too, and usually from the same distributors. To that end, I've never personally owned an AK or AK variant with a US made barrel. Anecdotes abound that involve actually bending US made barrels during the build process, which is basically unheard of when building a kit on a CHF barrel unless you do something really stupid.

For most folks, sure, a US barrel that isn't CHF wouldn't be a particular detriment if the weapon's never going to see more than 2-3k in its lifetime anyway.
But every AK I've inspected that had substantial throat erosion or obvious barrel wear have been US made barrels - with the exception of rifles built from military surplus parts kits that included a used original barrel. Yugo M64/M70 AK variants are notorious for having rotted, sewer-pipe barrels from a steady diet of corrosive ammo during the Balkan conflicts in the 90's and such.
I've also inspected a Romanian WUM-1 (a AWB era imported AK) that was owned by an old shooting buddy that'd seen range trips about once a week, rain or shine, for nearly 10 years. He estimated around 15-18k of various bimetal x39 ammo had gone down that barrel, and it was just beginning to show the erosion of the chrome lining in the barrel throat. That rifle is the only example of throat erosion induced by non-corrosive ammo I've witnessed personally on a CHF barrel in an AK.

In reality, the biggest problem with finding that sort of info is that AK enthusiasts tend to start buying more AK's as their interest progresses, and most will put 1-2k through any given rifle at most and simply buy more, because of the large variety of national designs, variants, etc, and the concurrent interest in accumulating as many of them as possible.
If a buyer approaches AK ownership from the onset with the idea of simply buying the 'one good rifle', it's almost always an Arsenal, and if it's an AR or other shooting an enthusiast that simply buys an AK variant of some kind for the sake of diversity in his gun safe, it'll usually be a WASR 10/63 or a Zastava NPAP.

If I ever get the ammo budget to really torture a few of the more popular AK models, I wouldn't mind using that information as an excuse to make my own debut as yet another white guy that starts flapping my trap on about guns on YouTube. I honestly would love to know for myself.

I suspect that the use of bimetal bullet jackets in virtually all production AK ammo is the biggest contributor to aggressive barrel wear on non-CHF barrels. I would not be surprised to see 30k+ round service lives out of a non CHF US made barrel if it were only fed a steady diet of copper-jacketed x39.



Why does a quality barrel have to cost 2-3x a Green Mountain? Quality non-CHF barrels that last 40,000+ rounds for the higher-pressure 5.56 AR15 are available in plentiful droves for decent prices. What factors are different that prevent such for the 7.62x39 AK? Would this also apply to the 5.45, 5.56, 7.62x51 and 7.62x54R AKs?

Economies of scale - until ALL sources of CHF imported barrels are gone, I do not think a big enough market will exist in the US to get a CHF AK barrel down to the ~$100-120 range. Loose CHF barrels from parts kits or previously imported in-the-white typically sell on the second hand market for $100-150 depending on origin and configuration. Producing a CHF barrel in the US would have to be cheaper than those options to really enjoy any commercial success.
Naturally, rare AK variant parts bring a premium, such as a pre-04 Kvar AK104 barrel assembly, or a Bulgarian or Russian AKS-74U parts kit with the original barrel - that AK104 assembly would easily sell for $400-500 by itself depending on whether or not it had the muzzle device/FSB/Gas block/RSB included, and a complete original-barrel AKS-74U parts kit will easily sell for $1300-1500 + depending on origin and provenance so long as it's got the original barrel included.

I don't really think that'd apply to other cartridges, as plenty of copper-jacketed 5.56 & 7.62x51 exists, 7N6 5.45 imports are dead so support for that cartridge is waning, and 54R shooters will shoot spam can ammo in anything and are into that cartridge because it's a full-power rifle cartridge still available for ~$0.20/round so a higher end barrel for a PSL build or whatever is a small market indeed.



Well, obviously. That still didn't stop all the premium AK manufacturers from making a buck and even expanding over the last couple years, so I don't understand why BCM or "insert-favorite-manufacturer-here" couldn't fill in the gap.

AK enthusiasts with money are usually snobs about origin and authenticity. Hence why a complete PLO-captured Tula-made & all-matching AKM parts kit w/original barrel might sell for $3000 as a chopped up parts kit, while new-in-box $1000 Arsenals languish on the market.

As such, the driving demand in that market wants the exact opposite of a BCM or other big-name AR builder's sorted-out & good-running AK they've sorted out and improved upon.
Now, if someone managed to make an AR-esque bolt-hold-open device that ran on normal AK mags, and improved accuracy with a quality barrel, and integrating a few better ways to mount optics - they'd likely have a good selling rifle.
But for the most part, the boutique-tactical AK market is pretty well covered by companies like Kreb's.



In what market is it not?

As always, Tam, you make a compelling and obvious point - I was only limiting my scope to US markets because acquiring an 'evil' looking rifle in some other nations is a much more expensive and complicated process than it is here, and a rifle that would last a heck of a lot longer would stand a much better chance of fetching an additional $200.

[Hooper]

Well said, JRB.

Do you have supporting evidence for this statement?
Oh come on, sometimes science has to give way to engineering :P

I kid...

It was common knowledge (I say was for a reason, stick with me). A slight diversion... As JRB said, building an AK is involved and dicey for the unskilled. You have to use a multi-ton hydraulic press to press-fit the barrel into the trunnion. As Jim Fuller said in his Panteao Armorers' Bench video, as you can imagine even this process goes wrong sometimes for the pros at Izmash, Arsenal, and Norinco when they have a bunch of specialty jigs to do the job. The result is a slightly bent barrel resulting from buckling under unevenly applied force. My Arsenal has it, my Izmash does not. When they bend the barrels a little bit, they generally don't scrap the rifle because it is still perfectly fine for normal use. All they have to do to correct the issue is cant the sight tower over a little to give a decent sight picture (with the post centered in the ears).

I bring all this up to mention that it has been common in the AK building world for home builders to bend and buckle US barrels at higher rates than combloc barrels.

A couple more solid data points: if you keep your ears to the ground you hear of AKs with hammer forged barrels with 50k, 70k, and sometimes even 100k rounds, that still shoot okay. I know back in the day when Chinese 7.62x39 was cheap my uncle and I put a boat load through his Norinco. OK, not that's not comparative proof...

Here's the big point: there is one guy in the US who does have a ton of experience in high round counts through AKs, Jim Fuller. I hadn't been keeping up, but until recently he has been saying that US barrels were inadequate for serious use in an AK. Interestingly, digging a little to post a relevant link relating that I found this recent interview with Jim that indicates that there is a game changer at play here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlZR_sgk7oQ&feature=share&t=15m28s

Happily this innovation negates what I was saying, which now appears to be outdated knowledge. The nitriding accomplishes a hardening of the barrel in a different way than the work hardening of hammer forging, but like hammer forging it does harden the bore. I should have considered the possibility because just as I intend to pick up a nitrided barrel for an M1A build and was excited about that, but didn't put two and two together.

Exciting times. Maybe this will make the future of the AK in United States.

(P.S. if you want more solid info than that, you are welcome to send me some US barreled and combloc hammer forged barreled AKs and a truckload of ammo and I'll test them and publish the results. I'll even run a power analysis and t-test for free, and let you pick the desired effect size and minimum statical power. PM me that if interested and I'll fire up the statistical software and let you know how many AKs to send ;) )

[Hooper]

Oops, looks like you beat me to making one or two of the same points, JRB. Great info again.

[TGS]

Thanks for all the info from both of you guys. Good stuff.