Shotguns -- slugs versus buckshot considerations

[GJM]

I thought I would split this off from the 1301 thread, and it has the possibility for interesting conversation.

I started down the traditional shotgun path -- classes with the "masters" then, Awerbuck, Jeans, Cain, C Smith plus others. Did a lot of patterning of different buck through different barrels.

With the right barrel, and the right load, at the right distance, buckshot is near magical. At the wrong distance, with the wrong barrel and wrong buckshot load, is is really bad. That got me to slugs, where I am now.

Discuss?

[nycnoob]

I have had classes with Awerbuck and others, I never actually understood the who "patterning" thing.

The patterns appeared to me to be very unstable and nothing I could rely on in a fight. If I am responsible for all the shot out my muzzle then taping little pictures of patterns for each load to the buttstock will not help me.

I always thought pump shotgun was a "fun" gun to take a class with, though I am not sure why that is.

[Mike Pipes]

Patterned Federal Flight Control out of a cyl.bore PD 870 and Benelli M1. At 10yrds it was a 2 1/2 in hole and at 15yrds it strung the pattern to the right and was 5in. Slug at 50yrds would go into 4in..........................CYA

[Jeep]

I thought I would split this off from the 1301 thread, and it has the possibility for interesting conversation.

I started down the traditional shotgun path -- classes with the "masters" then, Awerbuck, Jeans, Cain, C Smith plus others. Did a lot of patterning of different buck through different barrels.

With the right barrel, and the right load, at the right distance, buckshot is near magical. At the wrong distance, with the wrong barrel and wrong buckshot load, is is really bad. That got me to slugs, where I am now.

Discuss?

GJM: Doesn't a lot depend on your situation? If you keep a shotgun for home defense you can probably anticipate shooting a short range--the near magical range for buckshot. If you are wondering in the Alaskan woods with a shotgun to ward off bears you are going to want slugs. Other situations might call for a mixture of the two, or might start off with something like #4 shot (which would be good for wild dogs and the like).

[JAD]

I don't really believe in overpenetration with handgun rounds, but that logic finds its limit with a slug. If I'm running a slug, I have to be really, really sure of what it's going to go into after it exits the target. That's why they're always a select at best and in my HD application left out of the mix. Nothing I'd have to shoot in an HD scenario is likely to get out of range of a 5" pattern. If it was I'd prefer an AR.

[nycnoob]

I don't really believe in over penetration with handgun rounds . . .

Have you seen some data which caused this view?


I thought over penetration was a risk with all weapons and living in a communist state I do worry about malicious prosecution.

[JAD]

Have you seen some data which caused this view?


I thought over penetration was a risk with all weapons and living in a communist state I do worry about malicious prosecution.

I might move if I felt that way strongly enough. As I don't, I limit the things I worry about.

I value sufficient penetration more than the possibility of mortal harm coming to someone behind my target, with handguns. My data set for 'sufficient' is that on three of my friends, I've measured way more than 14" of meat between the surface of their skin and their spine. If I'm so good that day that I land a spinal shot, I'll be damned if the FBI is going to tell me I can't hit it.

[nycnoob]

Patterned Federal Flight Control . . .

And I do not understand why people like this Flight Control Wad technology in the special ammo box.

The original idea was a choke The Wad Wizard Shotgun Choke System (http://www.wadwizard.com/) it works as advertised and if you use it all your shot is "flight controlled".
Which goes to show that the issue with patterning is the wad and hot gasses blowing through your pattern. I would rather have a flight controlled barrel then buy some flight controlled ammo.

[GJM]

GJM: Doesn't a lot depend on your situation? If you keep a shotgun for home defense you can probably anticipate shooting a short range--the near magical range for buckshot. If you are wondering in the Alaskan woods with a shotgun to ward off bears you are going to want slugs. Other situations might call for a mixture of the two, or might start off with something like #4 shot (which would be good for wild dogs and the like).

I think situation does matter. Most places in the lower 48, I load buck inside the house.

Bill Jeans of Morrigan Consulting sent me the reference to the police officer killed by a stray pellet of buck fired by a fellow officer. Will try to post that later, by screen-shotting and photobucket'ng it.

I agree slugs, especially Brenneke slugs, penetrate a bunch. The tradeoff is being responsible for one slug versus 8 or 9 balls, each capable of killing someone.

[Unobtanium]

I might move if I felt that way strongly enough. As I don't, I limit the things I worry about.

I value sufficient penetration more than the possibility of mortal harm coming to someone behind my target, with handguns. My data set for 'sufficient' is that on three of my friends, I've measured 24" of meat between the surface of their skin and their spine. If I'm so good that day that I land a spinal shot, I'll be damned if the FBI is going to tell me I can't hit it.

How? I have seen some BIG guys in my gym, and they do not have anywhere near 2 feet of chest-depth. By big, I mean 2200# leg-press, 6'4 275# roided out of their minds big.

[Unobtanium]

I think situation does matter. Most places in the lower 48, I load buck inside the house.

Bill Jeans of Morrigan Consulting sent me the reference to the police officer killed by a stray pellet of buck fired by a fellow officer. Will try to post that later, by screen-shotting and photobucket'ng it.

I agree slugs, especially Brenneke slugs, penetrate a bunch. The tradeoff is being responsible for one slug versus 8 or 9 balls, each capable of killing someone.

The flip side is that you can use a winchester hollowpoint slug which typically fragments, over-expands, and penetrates about right for a deer, attacking thug, or other thin-skinned target.

[JAD]

Mistyped, sorry. 'More than 14",' which is I think the FBI standard.

[Unobtanium]

And I do not understand why people like this Flight Control Wad technology in the special ammo box.

The original idea was a choke The Wad Wizard Shotgun Choke System (http://www.wadwizard.com/) it works as advertised and if you use it all your shot is "flight controlled".
Which goes to show that the issue with patterning is the wad and hot gasses blowing through your pattern. I would rather have a flight controlled barrel then buy some flight controlled ammo.

I bought some Kick's Buck Kicker choke tubes once upon a time. Tried multiple constrictions, etc. (the ports also grab and retard the wad). Performance was...mediocre. I wasn't impressed enough that I didn't send them back. Kick's refunded me 100%, though, props to them. Shotguns are meant to spread and increase hit probability. If you are worried about that, shoot regular good old buckshot. If not, then slugs or pick another weapon. A shotgun is a tool, and shooting rifle-like ammo in it is like trying to use a wrench as a pry-bar. Sure, sometimes Brenneke's and other similar are GREAT for when you should be using a .458 and don't want to buy one/don't have one/etc. but by and large, I think a rifle is a better tool for a single projectile solution, why change what the shotgun was invented for?

[Unobtanium]

Mistyped, sorry. 'More than 14",' which is I think the FBI standard.

Okay, this I believe, lol.

I think a while back I read something about 14-16" being some sort of standard goal vs. "12" minimum", but I don't know if that was hard and fast or just someone's idea.

[JAD]

Someone smart will jump in. Now, if I practiced what I preached I'd carry SWCs all the time, instead of some of the time. So there you go.

[GJM]

A shotgun is a tool, and shooting rifle-like ammo in it is like trying to use a wrench as a pry-bar. Sure, sometimes Brenneke's and other similar are GREAT for when you should be using a .458 and don't want to buy one/don't have one/etc. but by and large, I think a rifle is a better tool for a single projectile solution, why change what the shotgun was invented for?

The beauty of the shotgun to me, is its versatility. I can carry a 14 inch 870 or Beretta 1301, which is relatively lightweight and compact, and still can quickly deliver a bunch of terrific anti-bear projectiles, in the form of the Brenneke slug. That same tool, allows me to launch things like rubber slugs for discouraging a bear, buck in the house or around cougars, and shot to harvest birds and rabbits. In the form of an 870 or Beretta 1301, it is also PC in most parts of the country. And, it is legal in Canada.

[Cookie Monster]

Been through a few shotgun classes. Shotgun was my thing for a while.

I've patterned my 870, so I understand the spread and at which distances I am going to be effective. I haven't bounced between barrel/chokes/loads. Got a good gun and I run what I bought 5 cases of. The gun is at 8 inches of spread at 25 yards. I don't think of spread as increasing my chances of hit success. The spread is giving be more wound area and helps to shred bones and flesh.

I run low recoil buck for most needs (home defense, etc) and that is what is loaded in the tube but have slugs available if things get real - the rare chance I need to get through barriers or put something big down. That chance would be very very rare in my world.

The shotgun is about understanding your gun and your load(s) and using what you need to use.

Ditto to what GJM said, it's my truck gun lots of uses, even more with some breaching rounds.

Cookie Monster

[GJM]

The flip side is that you can use a winchester hollowpoint slug which typically fragments, over-expands, and penetrates about right for a deer, attacking thug, or other thin-skinned target.

I use Winchester foster slugs for practice and prelim sight in. I go Brenneke for two reasons:

1) bears

2) Bill Jeans and Randy Cain drummed it into me that we own everything, including the wad. When I shoot Foster style slugs without an attached wad, the dispersion of the wad almost defeats the notion of a "single" projectile.

[JHC]

The only use I've put a defensive 12 ga to is HD and I haven't for a few years. But it's just any Win Rem or Fed 00 buckshot. I would be hard pressed to line up a shot further than 10 yds.

[jlw]

I mentioned in the other thread that I took a 40 hour Shotgun Instructor class from a guy whose next gig was being the firearms instructor for the Secret Service Counter Assault Teams. As he has not done the open enrollment circuit, nobody on the forums recognize his name. I've had a day with Mike Boyle and a few other blocks of instructor level training from law enforcement trainers as well as Erik Lund.

One of his favorite sayings reference 00 buck was, "It's the faster eight rounds you will ever fire."

I'm squarely in the tight patter camp. I find it to be unacceptable to have a buckshot pattern that won't keep every pellet within a torso once you get passed a car length. With my 870P, this was the case until I had it threaded for tubes and put a modified choke in it. Now an outstretched hand will cover the pattern at 25 yards with Remington 8-pellet loads. With 9-pellet, I start to get fliers at 12-15 yards; usually just one pellet, but that is one too many. I've also consistently made shots on hostage targets at seven yards keeping all of the pellets in the bad guy. I've seen plenty of cylinder bore shotguns shooting non Flight Control loads not be able to do this.

In the Erik Lund class, one of the other students was a forensic pathologist for a state crime lab, and commented that buck shot is typically contained within a body while slugs typically exit. All he does is autopsies; so, what would he know? ;)

My concern isn' 4-legged critters; it's 2-legged varmints.

I would rather have tight shooting buck than slugs on an entry, and sometimes an open yard must be crossed to access a structure. A shotgun that won't hold a tight enough pattern to do so is of no use to me. I'd rather carry a carbine than a tube full of slugs for such a purpose.

[GJM]

Lee, having seen you shoot a handgun, if I were that hostage, I would say "please put a slug in, or draw your pistol, instead of shooting that buckshot near me."

[jlw]

Lee, having seen you shoot a handgun, if I were that hostage, I would say "please put a slug in, or draw your pistol, instead of shooting that buckshot near me."

Hostages ought not be choosy.

[John Hearne]

As with most things, it's mission driven.

I have a 14" 870 at work. I keep it around for one reason - to shoot into cars reliably. It is stuffed with Brenekkes and has more on the side saddle, there is no buckshot in my patrol vehicle. Besides the desire to penetrate cars, none of the buckshot we have in the office patterns worth a crap out of that shotgun. Whether it's full powered buck or reduced recoil buck, it barely stays on a Transtar silhouette at 15 yards. No Flight Control handy but we have a bunch of "old" buckshot that will need to be shot up before anything new fangled is purchased.

The 870 in my house is stuffed with buckshot. It's intended role is home defense and when I look around outside my front or back door, I don't have to reach very far in my neighborhood. As far as overpenetration goes, a loose piece of buck is less likely to penetrate an outside wall than a slug. It does not have a side saddle currently but if it did, I MIGHT throw some slugs in it.

[JHC]

Hostages ought not be choosy.

Ha! The new sig line I've been looking for!

[John Hearne]

Hostages ought not be choosy.

I have long maintained that any "no shoot" still there after the first shot is fired in an IDPA/IPSC stage is not a hostage but a collaborator....

[jetfire]

I have long maintained that any "no shoot" still there after the first shot is fired in an IDPA/IPSC stage is not a hostage but a collaborator....

If they were really hostages they would have ducked.

[GJM]

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/Morrigan_zpsccdc538e.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/Morrigan_zpsccdc538e.jpg.html)

[JodyH]

I have long maintained that any "no shoot" still there after the first shot is fired in an IDPA/IPSC stage is not a hostage but a collaborator....
"Unindicted co-conspirators"

On shotguns.
With buckshot I want controlled spread of 8" or so, not a super tight 2" group at 25 yards.
The whole purpose of a shotgun is to increase hit probability on fast moving targets at close range.
Random stray pellets 2"+ outside the pattern aren't acceptable though. I want a consistent "minute of pie plate" at 25 yards.

If I want 8 rounds into <2" at 25 yards on soft targets, I'll take my 12" AR with a 4 moa Aimpoint and 30 round magazine.
The only time I demand precision from my shotgun is with Brenneke slugs and that's for big mean hard targets like people in cars or huge critters with claws and teeth.

I treat my buckshot loaded shotgun like a really big handgun and my accuracy expectations reflect that.
I expect to put 8 rounds into the -0 of an IDPA at a fairly rapid pace at 25 yards with a handgun and I expect to put 8 pellets into that same size target with my shotgun every trigger press.
Any smaller groups than that with my handgun and I'm probably taking too long between shots, any smaller pattern than that with my shotgun and I'll just pick up a rifle instead.

[Wendell]

Connie Jacobs and her nine-year-old son, Ty were fatally shot by RCMP Const. Dave Voller on March 22, 1998, at the Tsuu Tina Reserve, located on the southwest edge of Calgary, Alta., where they lived. When attempts were made to remove her four children and two grandchildren by Alberta Child and Family Services, Jacobs allegedly shot at Voller from the front step of her home with a high-powered rifle. The agency had been called in because of a domestic dispute between Jacobs and her husband. Not knowing that Jacobs’ son was standing next to her, Voller returned a single shotgun blast, the inquiry heard. The bodies lay on the porch for about four hours before an RCMP emergency response team assembled at the reserve to identify them, and to collect the five children who remained in the house. An independent RCMP inquiry into the shootings exonerated Voller, saying that he was acting in self-defense.
http://www.the-peak.ca/1998/11/rcmp-officer-who-shot-mother-and-son-goes-unpunished/

[Unobtanium]

I use Winchester foster slugs for practice and prelim sight in. I go Brenneke for two reasons:

1) bears

2) Bill Jeans and Randy Cain drummed it into me that we own everything, including the wad. When I shoot Foster style slugs without an attached wad, the dispersion of the wad almost defeats the notion of a "single" projectile.

I agree, and always wondered about why the TruBall was so popular considering it adds a plastic ball to the mix.

[Chuck Haggard]

I agree, and always wondered about why the TruBall was so popular considering it adds a plastic ball to the mix.

That ball is rather light and drops off quickly, and it does in fact make that a VERY accurate slug load through standard barrels.

[Unobtanium]

That ball is rather light and drops off quickly, and it does in fact make that a VERY accurate slug load through standard barrels.

I've had horrible accuracy from the DP version as compared to Remington Sluggers, and that ball could easily put an eye out or cause other soft-tissue injury.

[jlw]

I've had horrible accuracy from the DP version as compared to Remington Sluggers, and that ball could easily put an eye out or cause other soft-tissue injury.

If I am shooting at somebody with a slug, I'm not really worried about a ball putting their eye out... ;)

[1slow]

If I am shooting at somebody with a slug, I'm not really worried about a ball putting their eye out... ;)

Might be hostage or other person that does not need shooting at that moment.

[jlw]

Might be hostage or other person that does not need shooting at that moment.

See above re hostages...

[jlw]

I recognize that there are those who chose a shotgun and want a bigger pattern so as to increase hit probability.

That's not why I choose a shotgun. I choose it because I want a fight stopper, and I believe that within its effective range it is the superior fight stopper. I want to be able to stretch that range.

If it was purely about being able to hit the target, a carbine would be the apparent choice. Yes, there are times when I choose a carbine depending upon the mission. There are times when on warrants where I carry the G18C and no shotgun/carbine if I am the one that will be securing occupants or something similar.

[David Armstrong]

My default on the shotgun is to use it as a shotgun, with shot. When I used a shotgun, be it my 870 or my Beretta 1201 I patterned them both and knew what they would do within certain distances and had no particular compunction about taking hostage shots with my chosen buckshot during training. If the distance was such that I felt I could not be comfortable with the pattern it was time to switch to a slug.

[LSP552]

I've always seen the shotgun as a very specialized instead of general use tool. They have a role but, IMO, that gets overstated a lot in law enforcement. Patrol rifles should have buried the shotgun as a general issue LE weapon long ago, if not for tradition and cost. Contrary to popular belief, a pump gun is not the most reliable thing on the planet once you add the operator error, particularly under stress. I won't even talk about their use by IBOs (if I may borrow the term).

They are decisive fight stoppers and with the right slugs do penetrate into cars well. However, I can't imagine a time I'd reach for one against people over an AR. My shotguns sleep in the safe, not under my bed.

Ken

[LSP972]

However, I can't imagine a time I'd reach for one against people over an AR.

Ken

I can… in one very narrow application.

As I sit here, I have straight line-of-sight, twenty feet to my carport door; the one most likely to be used by home invaders. Within reach is a cut-down (both ends, but still "legal") Beretta 390, holding four rounds of FliteControl 00B; one chambered with the safety engaged. All my chirruns are gone, and the occasional visit by grand-chirruns does not see them un-supervised when they are awake.

As for the IBOs (and other less-than-competent colleagues)… well, you and I have seen too many interesting displays of mis-manipulation, especially during in-service training, to be under the illusion that the 870 is the "everyman's shoulder gun".

That old adage about monkeys and footballs comes to mind...:rolleyes:

.

[jlw]

From a training perspective, the typical carbine is "easier" to teach as it functions more like a pistol: insert magazine, charge the action, etc. Plus, it suits those of the recoil sensitive variety. At my old agency, once they adopted patrol rifles, they relegated all of the shotguns to less lethal.

I also get the arguments about shooter induced malfunctions with a pump shotgun, and perhaps that is some of my attraction to it. It's a thinking man's gun. That might also explain why I prefer leverguns when it comes to a rifle.

[1slow]

I much prefer military grade durable designs. This seems to be much easier to accomplish in a rifle or a handgun than a shotgun.
I do not wish any handicaps in a lethal confrontation.
Is there a shotgun as durable/reliable as a military rifle?

[RevolverRob]

I swore this was slugs v. buckshot not carbine v. shotgun - But ya know...;)

Anyways RE: mil-grade shotguns. True 870Ps, Mossberg 590A1s, Winchester M12s, and Ithaca 37s will all "do the trick" as hard use shotguns. All of them can suffer from issues, extractors, or bent action bars, etc, they are guns, if you can't break them then...you aren't using enough imagination. Although..I've never seen a Ithaca 37 actually fail.

Shotguns - I like them. I'm not a slug guy. I don't live in bear country and if I start shooting at people in cars...well I'm going to jail, most likely. That puts me in the buckshot camp and like JLW, I like tight buckshot patterns. I don't view the spread as helping me hit moving targets, that's what the length and 3-points of contact with the body is for. Instead I view buckshot as the fastest 8 or 9 bullets you can put on target. I like small patterns, I want my pattern to be from half-dollar to softball sized as it moves through distance and as soon as it spreads beyond that, the shotgun is done being effective for me. So, at home? 12-gauge with buckshot, either with a choke or flite-control if the barrel is a standard cylinder barrel. When traveling on the road? I leave the shotgun and go to a rifle.

-Rob

[1slow]

Since the late 1970s I used older circa 1970 870 Wingmasters with very little trouble.
Used Benelli M1 super 90s a bit.
Is anything better now? Magazine fed shotguns ? Beretta 1301 Comp ? Others....?

[TheTrevor]

Back to the original topic of shotgun load selection:

My default home defense firearm is an HK P30 with TLR-2 and a spare magazine. In the possible but unlikely event I find it necessary to arm myself with a long gun, one of my ready-to-go options is my Weatherby SA-459 20-gauge with mounted light and a magazine extension. If conditions outside are post-apocalyptic (not impossible, as I live in a densely populated earthquake zone) I'll be carrying the AR, with the shotgun going to whomever is standing watch while I sleep.

The first four rounds on deck are #1 buckshot of a variety (Rio) that patterns well through the extended IM choke tube. The next four rounds are Federal 7/8oz slugs, on the theory that any situation which isn't solved by four rounds of #1 buck might then be resolved using slugs.

The Turkish-made Weatherby shotguns are, unfortunately, designed on the early Beretta semi-auto action type which makes topping-up a partially loaded gun impossible. Similar limitations apply to slug-select drills, as the only workable procedure for dropping in a round is so finicky that it's not worth considering in real life.

With all that in mind, other than "buy a better shotgun" I'm open to suggestions regarding load selection. Should I have 8 rounds of #1 buck loaded with slugs in reserve, knowing that all 8 rounds of buck would have to be fired or manually ejected before slugs would be in play? Or go the other direction, with 8 slugs on tap?

[jlw]

In Lund's shotgun class, we patterned some flight control #1 along with the 00 buck. The #1 stuff through a much wider pattern, and given my already stated opinion on pattern, I obvious would go with the 00 over the #1.

[TheTrevor]

In Lund's shotgun class, we patterned some flight control #1 along with the 00 buck. The #1 stuff through a much wider pattern, and given my already stated opinion on pattern, I obvious would go with the 00 over the #1.

Unfortunately I have not found 00 buck loads to be readily available in 20ga. A FliteControl 00 load in 20ga would be lovely but I don't think it's offered. The heaviest load Federal offers in 20ga is #2 buck, and that doesn't come with the FC wad.

The conundrum is that I can get tight patterns (4-6", all hits show on an 8" steel plate) from #1 buck at 25yd but only by using chokes tighter than I can run a slug through.

[jlw]

Unfortunately I have not found 00 buck loads to be readily available in 20ga. A FliteControl 00 load in 20ga would be lovely but I don't think it's offered. The heaviest load Federal offers in 20ga is #2 buck, and that doesn't come with the FC wad.

The conundrum is that I can get tight patterns (4-6", all hits show on an 8" steel plate) from #1 buck at 25yd but only by using chokes tighter than I can run a slug through.

I missed the 20ga element.

I was raised in a 20ga household but was rebellious and went 12ga when I got of age.

[RevolverRob]

I've found the Rio #1 in 20-gauge through an IMod Remchoke in my wife's 870 is acceptably tight, 3.5-4.5" at 15 yards which is the maximum distance I personally run a shotgun (being inside an apartment or condo).

Trevor, you might look for some 20-gauge Brenneke Magnums if you're going slugs, I've found really great accuracy out to 50 yards with them, like 2" groups with Magnums, I found the foster-type KOs were more accurate, but I prefer the Magnums, because they are another 1/4-ounce heavier. I figure if I'm going to fling a lot of lead at someone, I might as well fling a lot of lead at them.

Edit: Realized you mention accuracy, if you have to run the gun that tight, maybe it is time to think about going all slugs or all buck. Have you ranged off the distance you'll potentially be shooting and done a realistic assessment of shooting lanes and engagement distances? Being in California, I imagine if the fight goes outside, you're facing some serious legal liabilities.

-Rob

[Tom Givens]

I am a big fan of buckshot for close range un-armored targets. That covers the vast majority of non-police engagements.

I have investigated a lot of buckshot shootings over the years and the stuff is like the Hammer of God at typical fight distances. I have only seen a couple of cases that required a second shot, and that was because the first shot was poorly placed.

The other reason I really like buckshot in an urban environment is its compressed downrange danger zone. Maximum ranges:

• .30 Carbine 2,200 yards
• .223 2,850 yards
• .308 3,500 yards
• 00 Buck 750 yards
• 12 ga slug 1,500 yards
• Buckshot carries less than ½ mile.

Typical buckshot, fired parallel to the ground at shoulder height hits the ground 300 yards in front of you if you miss your target. Slugs and bullets extend the danger zone an awful lot.

[MD7305]

On the topic of slugs, have any of you guys used Remington Managed-Recoil Slugger (RR13RSB), 1oz., 1200fps? My department normally uses Federal's TruBall (LE127RS) 1300fps round but due an availability issue the Remington was purchased. I'm curious if anyone has used it.

[JodyH]

It's a 3/4" diameter 1oz. chunk of lead at 1200fps... that's bound to tear some crap up.
Against soft, squishy people any slug is gonna leave a mark.
I haven't found a slug yet that doesn't shoot at least as good as your average crappy shotgun sights will allow.

[JodyH]

Typical buckshot, fired parallel to the ground at shoulder height hits the ground 300 yards in front of you if you miss your target. Slugs and bullets extend the danger zone an awful lot.
The Nobel 27 pellet #4 Buckshot I keep my house gun Winchester 1300 loaded with starts hitting dirt right at 200 yards.
With that load I only have to worry about one direction from my house, the other 270 degrees are a 350 yard free fire zone.

[Tom Givens]

Jody-- I should have specified 00 Buck when I said 300 yards. #4 is so much lighter that it has an even shorter downrange zone, as you noted.

That has a flip side, however. Based on a couple of shootings I am aware of where #4 failed miserably, I don't trust it to penetrate enough. When I say "buckshot" I generically mean 00. I personally favor the 8 pellet loads over the 9 pellet versions. Earlier in this thread someone mentioned flyers with a 9 pellet load. That is pretty much standard, due to the way the pellets are stacked in the shell. The geometry works much better with 8 pellets.

[JodyH]

How are they out of your Serbu? :)
Obnoxious, just like everything else out of a 6" 12ga..

[1slow]

Which Serbu Super shorty variation do you recommend, 870, 500, other ?

[MD7305]

It's a 3/4" diameter 1oz. chunk of lead at 1200fps... that's bound to tear some crap up.
Against soft, squishy people any slug is gonna leave a mark.
I haven't found a slug yet that doesn't shoot at least as good as your average crappy shotgun sights will allow.

Thanks, Jody, I see your point.

[Unobtanium]

I much prefer military grade durable designs. This seems to be much easier to accomplish in a rifle or a handgun than a shotgun.
I do not wish any handicaps in a lethal confrontation.
Is there a shotgun as durable/reliable as a military rifle?
870
590a1
M1
M3
M4
Others

[45dotACP]

For those worried about undue spread, would a full choke be an effective tool in a defensive shotgun? Just aim it like a rifle and send what's basically a large, compact blob of lead downrage...right?

[JHC]

Anyone seen or heard of the performance of the Winchester Razorback 12 ga slugs? They are segmented to split into three upon penetration.

[David Armstrong]

On the topic of slugs, have any of you guys used Remington Managed-Recoil Slugger (RR13RSB), 1oz., 1200fps? My department normally uses Federal's TruBall (LE127RS) 1300fps round but due an availability issue the Remington was purchased. I'm curious if anyone has used it.
I used it a lot when I was a traveling shotgun trainer, but other than a feral dog at 25 yards I never shot anything living with it. The dog dropped like a rock, DRT. It shot pretty good groups at 50 yards, IIRC.